Purgatory's Pit of Doom

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Leigh.Lyons

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Hey guys. I'm knee deep in the book I'm writing so I can't stay for long. But I wanted to let you guys know about a flash fiction contest happening right now. I'll link my entry and from there you guys can see the contest.

What, no, it's not a shameless ploy to get people to look at my blog, why would you say that?
 

SteveCordero

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I cought up with that issue today, Dr. Ink. For those that don't know, the agents in question were from NC and they deny that it went down like that (per the links on the page). In other words, the suggested editorial changes were because there were too many POVs in their opinion (5 total) and changing the story from YA to MG.

I don't know who to believe in this story, it's unfortunate if the authors cried wolf because it takes away from the main issue of lack of diversity in YA & MG and how to address that.
 
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soulcascade

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if ur having a dull Fri. u can read my blog...it's about porn...

OOH PORN! LOL!

Hey guys. I'm knee deep in the book I'm writing so I can't stay for long. But I wanted to let you guys know about a flash fiction contest happening right now. I'll link my entry and from there you guys can see the contest.

What, no, it's not a shameless ploy to get people to look at my blog, why would you say that?

LOL Leigh! You're entry looked good to me

I cought up with that issue today, Dr. Ink. For those that don't know, the agents in question were from NC and they deny that it went down like that (per the links on the page). In other words, the suggested editorial changes were because there were too many POVs in their opinion (5 total) and changing the story from YA to MG.

I don't know who to believe in this story, it's unfortunate if the authors cried wolf because it takes away from the main issue of lack of diversity in YA & MG and how to address that.

Well said, Steve.
 

ink wench

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Steve, I like to think there was miscommunication on all sides. Although I do think one side handled the situation in a much classier way.

What gets me is that so many agents are coming forward and saying "YA is very gay friendly" and so many (published) writers are saying "no, it's not." I also can't help remembering that when I had a MC with a rather minor disability in my YA UF that most of my editor passes called her unrelatable, despite me using every trick out there to make her likable. Lots of heads in the sand, me thinks. But I also think responsibility for that rests, in good part, with the audience. Just sad all around.
 

fourlittlebees

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here's what I think (and I wish I had a public forum since I can't seem to pitch anything at work). There's a new method of madness whereby writers are using an "issue" (book cover, self-pubbing anthology, gaywashing) to gain notoriety before going back to self-pubbing, thereby using drama to build a platform. It's the new reality show of the publishing world.

And it's gross.
 

SteveCordero

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EXACTLY, Dr. Ink. That's what I mean, the she said/she said takes away from the broader issue.

There is enough anectodal evidence from writers out there to know that something is wrong. There's your story, Blond's, Sc0tt Tr@c3y's well documented situation, etc. There is also the cover whitewashing fiasco 2 yrs ago that acts as a backdrop.

I also wonder if the "gatekeeper" situation may facilitate this problem rather than solve it. I went to X-Cin's diversity panel this past summer and a prominent editor moderated it, and she had pubbed diverse YA books. She said that the proof of her imprints comittment to YA diversity was in what she had already pubbed and what was comining up. But she then tellingly said that that she was still only getting a few diverse projects sent to her and if agents aren't sending them, then there is nothing she could do.

There is the potential that agents are widdling down the pool of diverse YA projects based on the unmarketable belief, when it's the editors that have to decide that. Then again, there's your situation, Dr. Ink, where you made it by the widdling process and still did not find a home.
 

ink wench

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4Bs, yes, that does seem to be happening a lot. I don't think it's true in this case though. Just my read of it.

Steve, yup. And there's Mal1nda L0's statistics, too. Fascinating, but depressing stuff. My suspicion is that it's acquisitions--the number crunchers--that have the biggest say, much more so than agents or acquiring editors. I'm curious what will happen if I go out on sub with Sk1d in the future (assuming the agent likes it). That's my rewrite of the dead YA UF. Still with a disabled MC, but it's a literary-ish contemporary, and I bet that makes the disability less of an issue.
 

fourlittlebees

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I honestly thing the agents and the editors have completely lost touch with what readers want. When you see agents saying "don't tell me you had teens read your book and like it when I know the market" and then you actually hear teens and tweens wondering why everything is the same, you start to wonder where they are actually doing this market research. Esp. when it comes to YA, I know what the lead titles are, and I know what my kid and her friends are reading, and... they aren't even close to the same thing. But then I look and see what MY friends are reading... the moms of a certain age... and I see a lot of YA lead titles.

/headscratch
 

kellion92

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When I first read the PW post, I was skeptical for many reasons. I often feel that writers exploit book challenges for publicity purposes, and this had that same feeling. It also seemed unlikely to me that a YA book with five POVs couldn't have a gay teen among the characters. I'd almost expect it -- that's the way teen dramas are on TV too.

I'm not sure I believe the agents either. Agents ARE gatekeepers, as has been said, and as someone who has had the gate slammed, I don't trust them to do the gatekeeping. I'm certain they eliminate books from consideration that editors might publish, just as editors may not publish books that readers might buy. Then again, you can't make readers buy anything they don't want to read. YA readers seem to enjoy reading about gorgeous rich kids, for example, who are certainly overrepresented in teen literature.

ETA: Interesting point about YA lead titles and teen versus adult readers. YA is hot because adults are reading it, and that is shaping what's published because it's what sells.
 
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fourlittlebees

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ETA: Interesting point about YA lead titles and teen versus adult readers. YA is hot because adults are reading it, and that is shaping what's published because it's what sells.

Right, but now we've completely annihilated genre. We don't HAVE a category for teens, because no one is actually writing for them. We have authors bitching that agents aren't letting them write for the gay teens, but no one is actually writing for teens, because they are writing books for adult women to read couched as books for teens.

So... who is actually writing a book with a gay teen character that someone is going to represent, buy, and market to teens? Take ink's book. Ink's book, by all rights, should have gone to auction the second it went out on sub. Teens want to read THAT BOOK. I have S1ssy and her friends lamenting that there are no books LIKE INK'S BOOK. Instead, they have a glut of stuff being thrown at them that they don't want to read. The ARCs I brought home from C0m1c-C0n? Most of them were tossed aside quickly. The lead titles? She yawned. The two NYT bestselling author books? She actually detested.

So where is the actual market? Money is being spent right and left to market YA to the adult audience, not the kids, so I guess I'm just plain confused. Is this what Harry Potter and Twilight have wrought?
 

Snappy

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Pushing aside the drama of the situation, the issue is WHY aren't diverse titles being printed in YA? Finding a solution to that problem should be the main focal point, and I think both sides are at least trying to get back on track now.

If this happened to the writers, I understand their frustration. If the agent felt she was misunderstood, then I understand the need for her to give a defense. But...

I hope the community as a whole would now get back to addressing - and fixing - the problem. The hostility in some of the comments around the net make my stomach turn. :(
 

ink wench

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4Bs, really interesting perspective. (And I'm not just saying that because you used my book as an example. ;)) I think Tw1li1ght changed what goes on in YA because it brought in such a huge adult audience. As with gay characters or what have you, it's a chicken-egg dilemma. Publishers are going to buy what customers will buy. But without giving customers enough choices, they're forced to keep buying the same things. So that's what publishers buy again....

Snappy, I agree. Some of the comments made my head spin.

Red, OSC is a well known bigot, from what I understand. Wouldn't be surprised.
 

kellion92

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I didn't know that about OSC -- the only thing of his I read was End3r's G@me, and I thought it was totally gay. As in extremely homoerotic. Makes you wonder.
 

SteveCordero

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Since we're not in a "barrier" situation, but in a "we need more", I think the only rectification will occur when there is a breakout diverse book.

That seems to always be the case in entertainment. Once such a book makes big money then more pub houses will be pushing for it.

The all mighty dollar trumps all. The biggest bigot will push a diverse book if it can make her good money.
 

fourlittlebees

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this is so pit...

applied for a freelance gig... as a book reviewer... NO PAY. ZEEROH. Clips submitted included my NYT piece, and... yeah, I didn't get it. Red? Couch please?
 

SteveCordero

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{{{4B}}}

The Pit, where you even get rejected from volunteer work
 
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ink wench

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(((4Bs))) When you can't even work for free - that's Pit-worthy.

I suppose I should get offline and go do some laundry. Ugh.
 

Catwoman

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Hey guys. I'm knee deep in the book I'm writing so I can't stay for long. But I wanted to let you guys know about a flash fiction contest happening right now. I'll link my entry and from there you guys can see the contest.

What, no, it's not a shameless ploy to get people to look at my blog, why would you say that?

You know, that idea actually came to me as I was working out. Oh crap, I thought, I should have repped kellion instead, so people don't think I'm shamelessly trying to get people to look at my blog. I honestly didn't mean it that way. Sometimes, when I'm on my second cup of coffee I get excited and don't think things thru so MEA CULPA 100x.

Seriously, can someone tell me how to get words different colors?
 

fourlittlebees

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Catwoman, click the go advanced button, highlight the text, and then just click the button that has the text color.

The worst part? It was a form rejection via :bcc. Man. NO ONE wants me this week.
 

Red-Green

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I didn't know that about OSC -- the only thing of his I read was End3r's G@me, and I thought it was totally gay. As in extremely homoerotic. Makes you wonder.

Doesn't make me wonder at all. No shortage of self-hatred in the anti-gay camp...

Catwoman, click the go advanced button, highlight the text, and then just click the button that has the text color.

The worst part? It was a form rejection via :bcc. Man. NO ONE wants me this week.

Ouch. That's just ... rude.
 
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