Purgatory's Pit of Doom

Yeah, it really highlights the quality of mods that we have here vs. your average vBulletin site. Places like that you kind of have to get street on someone who acts that way because no one looks out for you or the community.

(((Mario))) That's really terrible. I can't even imagine telling a person to give up anything if that's what their passion is.

Just wow, Mario. When I get feedback like that, or rude suggestions, I flip a couple of discs into the player: Rudi and We Are Marshall, among others. Ain't nobody gonna tell me I have my dream displaced.

Tri

Mario LOL @ having to get street on someone That phrase always makes me giggle. But on a serious note that is SOOO freaking NOT COOL! Gah, makes me mad just thinking about it! No one should feel entitled enought to tell someone to quit writing. IMO there is no 'good' or 'bad' stuff, there's just stuff. Someone either likes it or they don't. And one person's opinion on what's good or not isn't gospel. You're right, AW is a great place with good mods and writers who will watch out for you. That other forum sounds like a war zone. And she saidyou should stop writing...but did SHE have any of her screen plays picked up? Hummm? Tsk, didn't think so!

There is bad stuff. Trust me, I've read some of it. But you don't crap on someone else to make yourself feel better. Even if something completely sucks, the least you can do is offer constructive crits.

You guys rule. See, we create our own sunshine here in the pit - who needs a sun? And yeah, I reviewed her thread history and she has no posts up offering her own work, nor is there any evidence she's so much as a pro reader (I am, FTR - low level but still) or very competent at crits.
But the biggest irony? I have recently had such strong doubts that I wanted to continue writing. Now I have to keep writing just to spite her. But I worry about more sensitive young writers who are confronted by people like her and scared away from their true calling. Yeah, some people just suck on a higher plane.

(I changed my location for that reason - she said I have no idea how people talk. Well, if my dates are any indication, or lack thereof, I'd give her that.)

Wow, Mario, that other forum sounds... ugh. I can't imagine telling someone to give up. She sounds like a real lovely person.

Seriously! We in the Pit tell people escape is not possible so they might as well keep trying, just for something to do. And that is sunshine and puppies compared to your other "friend."

I continue to tweak my query and pages, and each time, I think it's better, will get a better result, and regret ever having sent out the previous version with three words different.

I don't know if it's heartening to think that three words could make a difference, or depressing to think that three words out of a 56,000 word novel could make or break me. Which do you think?

mario_c said:

Now I have to keep writing just to spite her.

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Bingo. It's the spite that keeps us going in the Pit. To hell with her. If she thinks you should give up writing, you obviously should write MORE.

Mornin', Pit

{{{Mario}}}

(((Mario))) Anyone who tells you to give up writing isn't worth your time. Screw her!

PoP I've definitely DEFINITELY read stuff that I think is bad, both published and unpublished - we all have. But the thing is, some of the stuff we might think is crap someone else might think is golden. Then you're stuck with the question of 'who is right'. So I don't like talking in concrete terms of 'this stuff is bad/good' with art. IMO it's all subjective.

Mario I thought about that too! What about the poor writers already doubting themselves...just to hear her wretched advice?

Kellion that is such a tough question...I always like to think that agents go for the concept...that an amazing one would be willing to work with someone even if the ms wasn't perfect. But I think for some the wording of the opening pages could make or break the outcome

I think there are certain fundamental things that make someone's writing bad. Even if there is a good story there, the writing may still be horrendous.

Writing can definitely be terrible. I read some things and wonder what made the person think that they should be a writer when they have no flare for language or knowledge of how to string a sentence together, but I'm not going to tell them to stop.

I have so many queries out there that I'm due for a massacre. Today seems like a day agents would decide to clear out the boxes and hand out the Rs. We'll see.

Welp ladies I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

There are tons of books/stories out there that some people think are God awful and then others think are fabulous for who-knows-why. I just take the stance of 'IMO this isn't so hot' and not a more concrete 'this is terrible'. I think there's a world of difference in saying 'this is bad' and 'IMO this is bad'. I think it's that IMO that acknowledges the fact that a subjective opinion is at play.

I'll just sit back and nod along to everything Soul's saying. She's making it easy.

That said, I think there are elements of bad prose that can be objective: poor grammar, awkward structure, etc. However, good/bad storytelling is, I think, more subjective.

And of course, there's no accounting for taste. People like what they like, often for reasons that are hard to define.

RedScylla said:

And of course, there's no accounting for taste. People like what they like, often for reasons that are hard to define.

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And even when you know what you don't like, sometimes you still like it....

I've finished books before that I've wanted to hate for whatever reasons, and yet I'm ashamed at myself for enjoying,

Red you summed up what I was trying to say exactly Whenever I hear someone say 'bad writing' I always think of those published books (some NYT bestsellers) that I think are awful...but yet someone out there loved them *shrug* go figure.

'I think there are elements of bad prose that can be objective: poor grammar, awkward structure, etc' <- yeah I totally agree with this...and there being books I want to hate 'cause I think they are terribly written but I still like them anyway *blush*

There's a big difference between bad-published and bad-unpublished... Bad-published is usually at least comprehensible.


Got a quick R from one of those agents with a HUGE gulf between the way they describe their interests (high-minded literary gobbletygook) and what they represent (trend-chasing clones of other books). Not going to say who, but it's funny to see the gap.

'Bad-published is usually at least comprehensible.' <- eh, sometimes but not always

{{hugs}} on the R.

(((kell)))

soulcascade said:

There are tons of books/stories out there that some people think are God awful and then others think are fabulous for who-knows-why.

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There's a difference between saying a book is awful and saying that someone's sentence construction or actual writing is awful. Plot holes, POV problems, tense problems, etc. are just fundamentals. There's nothing subjective about that.

If someone reads and enjoys a story with fundamental writing problems, she's either consciously overlooking those things and seeing the story for the story, or she's an equally poor writer.

PoP to clarify, I'm not talking about writing that has huge glaring technical issues. I'm talking about coherent writing that, for whatever reason, I might not like.

That said, I've certainly read books that IMO had some glaring plot holes, bad sentence construction, POV problems etc and they have been published and done well.

Either way, I think it's very important for people to just keep in mind (in this and many things in life) that their opinions are their own and may or may not be shared by others. That's the point I was trying to make.

Ah. Well, I said there are fundamental things that can render writing poor, and you said "agree to disagree," so I assumed you were disagreeing with that.

Oh no, I think you were spot on about that part! Ah the limitations of virtual communication

Would you believe I read a book (one that did very well) that had sentences throughout that began in the past tense and ended in the present?? And that issue (among many) kept happening over and over again... Gah, drove me nuts!!