Institute of Children's Literature

Brainerd T.

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Thank you, Jenna

I've never talked badly about ICL. I didn't want to come across as disgruntled now. I've always felt I got a fair shake. I bought a product, and they delivered. But, as I said, it was the first time anyone had ever told me I was any good. Indeed, I thought, as Jenna said, that "sunshine had been blown...." That's classic. Love the expression.

My experience may (or not) have been unique. Was I that good? I'll never know unless I do (or not) become a best selling author.

But the reason I'm a member of this board is to learn. If you're not always learning, you'll always stagnate.

There you have it folks - A stamp of approval from Jenna. I respect her opinion. For any others who are considering the Institute of Children's Literature, I recommend it as well.
 

Celeste

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DragonTears said:
Thank you everyone for the valuable input! Ever since I had submitted my 'test' to them, and received a raving letter in return about the short story I wrote, I began getting excited about the opportunity, but wasn't 1000% sure yet. You can never be too careful on who you decide to give money to for services. But with input like yours, the decision is final. One of the ladies there actually called me a few nights ago and again insisted that I have extremely high potential for success as a children's writer based on my short story and really would like to see me enroll, but that of course the choice would be up to me. She then also stated that I could have them extend their $25 off discount so that I could partake of the payment plan when I was financially able to (in about 3 weeks or less) instead of trying to push me into it. She sounded really pleasant as well. Since I am just starting to work FT again for the first time in about a year, I have to get bills caught up, THEN can enroll, but seeing as how that will not be far down the road, I can honestly say that I am looking forward to this with great anticipation!

Thanks everyone for the input!

Originally posted by Inspired
From what I've heard they do use that test to "weed out" those who have very little potential. They can work with people quite a bit, so I doubt they turn many away.

I'm skeptical of just about everything, so take my view of this however...

But the way I see this is, of course they are going to praise the work because, like any company, they want to make money, they want your money. I'm not saying that anyone's writing isn't good, I'm saying just because some woman on the phone w/ a pleasant voice didn't sound pushy and praised your work, doesn't mean that they are interested in you. This woman's job is to sell the course and reading your response, it sounds like she's pretty damn good at her job. I don't want to discourage you and I'm definitely not saying your writing isn't good. I'm sure it is. I'm just saying be careful, don't let some manipulative sales woman sway you into something you're unsure of.

And I just see it as very unlikely that any business that wants to make money is going to turn anyone away and not accept their money.

I don't know. I've never taken courses. I feel one can learn just as much about writing, publishing, etc... on their own. I'm sure writing courses do have their benefits, but I'd be very careful of choosing one if I were ever to consider one. And that comment made about an e-mail from them saying, "You must not be serious about your writing if you haven't joined our course.." would've turned me off real quick.

But this thread and all the comments has shown both positive and negative, just as any company would get. There's always happy and unhappy customers of any business. So, all I can really say is, good luck and I wish the best with your decision.
 
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cwgranny

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All colleges are businesses and yet they all turn away students who cannot perform well enough to handle the academic life. Yet, we wouldn't tell a college kid -- yeah, kid, they accepted you but they want your tuition money. They're a business. They don't care about you or whether you're smart enough to get into college. They just PRETEND you passed your SATs -- all you really had to pass was the wallet dip.

ICL offers actual college credit that teachers (for example) can use to meet the demands of their profession for on-going credited study. ICL can do this because they have their course (and their test) evaluated by a real honest-to-gosh college. This demands a heck of a lot of paperwork from their instructors which certainly wouldn't have to happen to separate you from your money.

I realize we have a serious "beware" mentality here but I am sorry to see it extend to talking without really knowing anything about an institution.

gran
seriously disguntled on behalf of the
graduates of the ICL course who have gone
on to be published and who must face having their
hard work thrown in their faces as having been caught
by another unscrupulous business -- another poetry.com or PA.
Bah.
 

DJP

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Hey guys,

I took the course with ICL quite a few years ago. It was good for me to bring some structure and discipline to my writing routine, and at the time I was only into writing, not trying to sell my writing. The course taught me a lot about selling my work, and I still get their Children's Magazine Markets guide, it's great! Now, if only I devoted more time to submitting my work, 'sigh' maybe when the kiddies are older. Seriously, I enjoyed the course. If you're scraping the bottom of the barrel to pay for it, that's a tough choice. This course does give you the info you need on selling your work, so if you take the time and work hard, you will sell your writing. If anyone has more questions about ICL, I'd be happy to answer.
 

Coyote

Weighing in on ICL

I have been in publishing for many years, and I have seen the results of the ICL courses. I get queries from people all the time who have taken their courses, and I have to say that I have never found anything publishable, except one manuscript. That author was so talented that I doubt ICL had anything to do with the success of the ms. Actually, I ended up edited out what ICL had the writer put in. I just don't have a really high opinion of any place that implicitly implies that if you give them money, they will help you get published. Most of the writers I know who join up think that an editor or agent teaching a course will spot their work and offer on it. As I said, I have gotten queries from folks who have been through their courses, and their work is just not very good. Hope this helps.

Coyote
 

Inspired

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Just curious -

Which children's magazines have you worked for?

And, how on earth do you know they came from ICL?? If someone does query with an opening line like "I know this is good because I took a course . . ." then, yeah, not good quality right there. I would say you got the ones who were still on lesson one and thought they were hot stuff. But, I've learned a bit about professionalism from the course and know not to do that. I also wouldn't expect to be a pro right off the bat. It takes time and practice, correct? I don't expect miracles - just lots of guidance (and I'm getting loads of it.)

I bet you got some great queries from ICL grads who chose to be more professional, but you didn't realize it.
 
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cwgranny

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Since listing writing courses, workshops, books you've read on writing, etc. is definitely mentioned in the ICL courses as a no-no -- the vast majority of ICL students would never mention it (since I'm hoping most read the manual and follow its suggestions.) So, those who do proclaim ICL student status in a query must have missed that that part of the manual (not a good sign right from the get-go.) Yet, even in this group, Coyote found a really good submission. So amongst the least attentive of the ICL students, Coyote found a really good submission -- that's pretty impressive.

I do know a number of writers who are extensively published in magazines or have books by the publishers we all recognize and are ICL graduates. Some mention it on their websites. So obviously they feel they got something from the course or they wouldn't tell people about it. It was from an author with many books to her credit that I first found out ICL wasn't some kind of scam (since I found their marketing a bit icky -- okay, really icky.) That's why I answered a call from them and ended up writing a course for them.

I have heard graduates liken what they get from each lesson to being comparable to what they have gotten when they've attended writing conferences and paid for a professional critique. You get about that much information per lesson. SO, imagine someone attending 8 to 10 conferences and getting critiques. Will that turn them into Linda Sue Park? No. Will they learn something valuable they can use to become better writers? Yes. Will everyone see the same degree of improvement? No. Are both paths pretty expensive -- yup.

Personally, as I mentioned earlier -- I can't afford to attend 8 to 10 writing conferences and pay for critiques. (Actually, I can't afford to attend any -- I only go if they pay me.) I can't afford to take expensive writing courses (though I have taken a few on someone else's dime to evaluate them). I can't afford to pay for critique services (though I have sent materials to some of them -- again on someone else's dime -- to evaluate them). I chose to go the old-fashioned way. I wrote and wrote and wrote. And revised revised revised revised. And I still do. I study the market. Utilize my critique group. Learn from my rejections. I happen to have a degree in Journalism from a prestigious college -- that did jack for preparing me to write for children (beyond teaching me to fact check.)

Not every writer benefits from the same things. Some folks love conferences and critiques and go to more than one a year. Some folks love taking classes. Some folks find value in paid critiques. And some hit the grindstone and learn that way. I know what works for me but I don't know what works for everyone and I would never suppose to slam a door in front of someone or devalue the hard work they put into working THEIR journey. Which is exactly what a "ICL graduates all suck except for those who probably didn't need the course" post does. There is always someone who can devalue whatever path you are taking and that's pathetic. I've heard college grads tell those without college that they can give it up -- you can't get published that way. I've heard those who love conferences sneer at those who prefer books. In a field where there is so much unavoidable frustration built in -- it's sad that we have to build ourselves up by devaluing others.

I do know I've had students through ICL who were not benefiting from distance learning. In those situations, I contact the school so the person doesn't end up paying for something that isn't helping. Some people really need one-on-one, face-to-face input. Those folks might do better with conferences and critiques -- or with writing groups -- or with in-class instruction -- or by getting a less taxing hobby. Writing is hard work and it isn't for everyone.

ICL does NOT promise to make people into successful writers. All the school promises is to help the student get one submittable manuscript if the student stays in the course to the end -- that doesn't mean submittable to Boy's Life, American Girl, or HarperCollins (though it might). It might mean submittable to The Friend, Story Station, or Bread for God's Children (and instructors are supposed to be very honest about that.) Of course, if I were to send a Bread story to Dutton, the editor is going to send it right back to me. And if I'm stubborn, I'll then send it to FS&G and then Barefoot, until I finally believe my instructor and go ahead and send it to Bread.

gran
 
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pammiechick

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But the way I see this is, of course they are going to praise the work because, like any company, they want to make money, they want your money. I'm not saying that anyone's writing isn't good, I'm saying just because some woman on the phone w/ a pleasant voice didn't sound pushy and praised your work, doesn't mean that they are interested in you. This woman's job is to sell the course and reading your response, it sounds like she's pretty damn good at her job. I don't want to discourage you and I'm definitely not saying your writing isn't good. I'm sure it is. I'm just saying be careful, don't let some manipulative sales woman sway you into something you're unsure of.

Sorry, I'm coming back to this discussion late. I DID have an ICL teacher that DID blow you know what up my you know what, so what did I do? I told ICL and they gave me a new teacher. Pronto! My new teacher was awesome and I credit her with my fast sales after I completed the course. If you are ever unsatisfied with a teacher, ICL will change. That shows you their committment to your satisfaction.

(Gee, I sound like a sales pitch!)

http://www.pamcalvert.com
 

ldumont999

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Yes, Some Do Fail The Test

I facilitate a writers group in the North Jersey area and I can tell you that some people DO fail the test. A new member of my group really wanted to be a children's writer but failed the test. I worked with her for nearly a year before she conquered some writing basics. She then resubmitted her test and I'm pleased to say she passed. This woman was simply uneducated but had a wonderful imagination. She's been published a number of times since.

I also know two ICI staff members. The hours they spend with their students and the dedication of these individuals is exemplary.

Regarding the comment from the editor. I agree that submitting an assignment and telling the editor that it was an assignment is in poor taste at best. I do not think the editor was against ICI so much as he/she was against being the recipient of something written for an other purpose.

 

Tish Davidson

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Christine N. said:
Coyote won't be able to respond. She's been banned.

Why banned? I looked back at her post on this thread and although she disagreed with others, I did not think the post offensive.
 

cwgranny

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She wasn't banned for anything she said here. She got into a brouhaha on Off Limit Agent thread on the Bewares and Background Check board.

gran
 

Kappie

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Agree with DJP

Just thought I'd put my two cents in about ICL. I took the course and agree with DJP and her experience. I become pregnant twice(confined to my bed most of the time) while trying to finish and they gave me extensions and were very understanding about the whole situation. Someone gave the course to me as a gift so I was lucky I did not have to worry about the cost. Just thought I'd weigh in:)
 

Beth4158

Sales tactic?

There's little that can be added to this discussion (everyone who's written before me has done a top-notch job of lobbing all the pros and cons out there for consideration), but I will echo a sentiment I saw early in the thread: I, too, took the "test" and passed with flying colors (I can write a decent sentence, so I wasn't surprised), but I didn't sign up for the course. I was -- I think it's fair to use ths word -- hounded with letters from them. Even when I'd move, the letters would follow me. And I was thoroughly disgusted with the Institute's attempt to belittle/disgrace me into signing up for the course, by suggesting that if I had such aptitude and hadn't yet signed up, I must not be serious about becoming a writer.
Fed up, I finally fired off a letter in response, saying that my editors at the Chicago Tribune seemed to think I could write just fine, as I'd been working there for several years.
The letters stopped coming.
 

msanjelpie

I took the ICL course about 12 years ago. I thought it would be easy. I was wrong. Writing is a lot harder than it looks. I received 'chapter lessons' in the mail to place into a binder. By the end of the course the binder was full. Each lesson teaches one point they want you to learn. You are assigned your own teacher. You only deal with this teacher once you start the course. You write what they tell you to write, you mail it to your teacher, who corrects it for you, makes notes etc... and sends it back.

Within the first couple of chapters, I learned a bunch of stuff, but I probably could have learned it from reading any 'how to write' book. As for the personalized attention from a teacher, it all depends on where you live and what is available to you as to whether this would be beneficial in the long run.

It was fun mailing off the stories and getting them back. The main thing I learned as I went along the course, is that writing 'correctly' is hard. I would spend so many hours working on some stupid children's story that was only 1 or 2 pages long, and I would feel like I had just written a novel. Very taxing on the brain!

Near the end, you learn your strengths, and I learned that I can write for teens much better than for kids. It was suggested that I send in stories to Seventeen Magazine to get the ball rolling... I found the thought of reaching out to the youth of today with my knowledge of my own teen life and everything I've learned since to be inspirational.

Unfortunately, I wasn't inspired enough to spend the hours and hours it would have taken to come up with something worth publishing... and that was just a short story, not even thinking along the lines of a full fledged book. Good luck, I think if you go through with it you will enjoy it. Money aside, it was a fun hobby to pursue.
 

Gindee77

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Happy to find this thread

I was really happy to read this thread. I have been debating about whether or not to take this course and doing a lot of research trying to find something bad about ICL. That's not easy to do. There just isn't anything bad out there about it. I felt compelled to do the research, not because it's so expensive, in fact, it isn't nearly as expensive as I thought it would be. But since there wasn't a word about the cost until after I had taken and passed the aptitude test (and then I had to hunt thru reams of leaflets to find the small one with the info about the cost) I made the assumption early on that it was probably grossly overpriced. It wasn't, but not knowing until after the test results came back sort of left a bad taste in my mouth from the beginning. I totally agree with some of the above posters who think ICL's marketing is a bit (or a lot) cheezy and it tends to make those of us who would like to take a course like this a bit (or a lot) nervous. After all, it's the first impression we get of the school; it's not a good one (think: "Draw Binkie"). That being said, I haven't been able to find anything bad about the school on the internet and I'm really leaning toward taking the course. It fits into my schedule, my budget, my lifestyle and my personal obligations. Even tho I've been published a lot (I was a free-lance newspaper reporter for 12 years) I'm an absolute beginner when it comes to writing kids books, so that part fits too.

I have one issue left that I'd like to settle before I go for it and I'm going to ask you 'in-the-know' posters. Do the instructors shove their own style of writing down your throat? Do they allow you free enough rein to be yourself and express things the way you want to express them, or is there a strict prescribed way they expect you to write? Being with one, and only one, instructor for 2 years seems to me to have it's drawbacks. I can understand the 'mentor' concept and it's benefits, but is this all good? Or can your style begin to mirror the one person who has taught you, for so long, that you lose your own identity?

TIA
G
 

DragonTears

As the original owner of this post, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it has gone on as long as it has. It is refreshing to see all the different points of view on this school, both good and bad. I still maintain that I will be enrolling sometime in July and can only hope that my experiences there will be a reflection of what the 'happy' posters here have experienced.

Once I enroll, and as I proceed through the course, I will periodically post my experiences with them on here for everyone to see.

As for Gidlee, I wish you all the luck with them as well!
 

Inspired

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Dragon, I don't know if I said this before, but go to the ICL website and find something called Writers RX. Then, read through that and put the chats on your schedule. They are fun and informative. Also, sign up for the message board there. People that are going through the course hang out there. Some are very inexperienced, some have problems on an assignment and ask questions, some are almost done with the course and share articles and suggestions. It's a good place to be.

(not as good as this board with all its experts, but still good.)
 

Inspired

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Hmmm. I didn't think that went through. Great. I e-mailed you, Dragon, too. If you need help finding the different parts of their "virtual school," let me know.
 

CalicoBean

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Gindee77 said:
I have one issue left that I'd like to settle before I go for it and I'm going to ask you 'in-the-know' posters. Do the instructors shove their own style of writing down your throat? Do they allow you free enough rein to be yourself and express things the way you want to express them, or is there a strict prescribed way they expect you to write? Being with one, and only one, instructor for 2 years seems to me to have it's drawbacks. I can understand the 'mentor' concept and it's benefits, but is this all good? Or can your style begin to mirror the one person who has taught you, for so long, that you lose your own identity?

TIA
G

G,
This wasn't at all my experience. I felt free to write what I wanted to write. I looked just now at my binder (which I have kept since 97-98!), and found a feedback letter where the instructor addresses the following elements of that month's story: point of view issues, pace, some awkward phrases and word choices, and a few places where the story could be expanded a bit. This is just an example, but the feedback was helpful and I certainly didn't feel that she was trying to smush me into a certain style.

If you do happen to get an instructor who makes you uncomfortable or doesn't help you, take Pam's advice and ask the Institute for another instructor.
 

Gindee77

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I'm taking the plunge!

I've researched the ICL and was very happy with the results. Since I'm a beginner, I'm going to take the course, I'm sending my $$$ in tomorrow and making the commitment. Thanks for all the input on this thread, it really helped me make a decision!

Ginni
 

CalicoBean

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Good luck Ginni! I'm sure you'll enjoy the course. Keep us posted from time to time :)
 

mnorton

Trying to decide

I'm interested in enrolling in the Institute of Children's Literature. I have taken the test and have been accepted. I have the money but before I spend the tuition money I would like to know what I am getting into. My goal is to get my writing to a point where I can get published and possibly make a career transition into becoming a freelance writer. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated whether it's positive or negative. I would prefer to hear from people who have recently taken the course.