Critique The Stories & Novels, Not the Authors

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Ken

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...speaking of "spades," perhaps it is time to bury the hatchet here for today and resume tomorrow. No point discussing methods of critique if we ain't writing ;-)

*now where's that ice pack*
 

Mel

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tone is not about content. It is solely about delivery. It is not something extra you put into a critique and costs no extra effort to do, once you've done it several times. It's really not much different than modulating ones voice when speaking to someone in meatspace. That's all. Why make a critique harder on a writer than it already is if all that needs to be done is a simple adjustment in tone. I am not refering to anyone specific in this thread or site, but just in general, to be clear.

There certainly is a cost. The cost of time for the person doing the critique. Trust me, I'm much nicer in my speech here than I am in real life. You're asking others to change their tone and voice, which is what we explicitly tell writers to not do. You're asking them to change their personalities. Why? Personally I love the diverse personalities here. We are not robots and I don't know why anyone would expect us to be.
 

quickWit

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...speaking of "spades," perhaps it is time to bury the hatchet here for today and resume tomorrow. No point discussing methods of critique if we ain't writing ;-)

*now where's that ice pack*

Tomorrow? Tomorrow? Do we really need to carry this further? I, for one, can't imagine what's left to be said!

No mas! :)
 

CaroGirl

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Tone is indeed subjective in this context. What you find offensive I find to be absolutely not so. There is not table or experimental test we can do to find out what is offensive or not. There is no common agreement on what words or word combinations are offensive.

As an example that geography can be one factor in this:

If I say I want to pat Caro's fanny, I'll probably get my face flapped.

If I say I want to pat Scarlet's fanny, I'll likely get my face ripped off.

fanny in the U.S. = butt
fanny in the U.K. (at least the parts I've lived in) = women's genitalia
Yeah. And if I told Neuro I liked his pants he'd say, Thank ye. But if I told Scarlet I liked her pants she'd rip my face off.

U.S. pants = trousers
U.K. pants = underwear

You'll really need the ice pack when Scarlet rips your face off.
 

Prozyan

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Personally, I'm shocked this thread is still ongoing. I mean really, 11 pages and not one example of a real, actual crit in which the person is behaving as put forth by the OP.

Not to mention this has somehow morphed from an admonishment about critting someone personally as opposed to their work (again, with ZERO examples) to the "tone" of a crit (and still, with ZERO examples), something which can't possibly be qualified.
 

Karen Duvall

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I wish I knew how to search for a thread because I have a perfect example of a FANTASTIC crit that helped me so much with a 50 word hook I was struggling with, but an AW member jumped to my defense because he thought the crit was too harsh. It might have been, I don't know, but I loved it a bunch! I think it would be a perfect example of what Ken might find objectionable, yet many of us would kill to get. I just got lucky. :D
 

Cyia

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Good grief.

So would you prefer a nice flowery watered down *cough*Kool-Aid*cough* crit that leads the writer to believe they've done all the work necessary to make something marketable?

I've spent time in SYW on both sides of the red pencil (of DOOOOOOOOOOM) and that's not what it's designed for. Everyone posts there hoping they'll get a string of "it's wonderful" or "great imagery, dialogue", whatever. The truth is the author is looking at something through their own intent, and often times that intent is not conveyed.

Sure it's not fun to hear something you think is great needs work to get others to that same place, but it's necessary.

If you went to the doctor and he found a tumor, would you want him to be nice to it and find a way to twist his diagnosis so that he said nothing's wrong and the tumor had its place, or would you want it cut out for the good of the rest of your body? It's the same with writing. There are tumors that need to be excised.

I did a crit on something in SYW last night because the OP said they wanted it. Then, I look a few posts above mine and find out she'd changed her OP because originally it read "be honest, but gentle" and she was informed that her request was an oxymoron. She said she didn't want to hear the negative stuff, but concrit. Well, you can't be constructive unless you tear out what needs to be fixed. I haven't gone back in there to see if she read my crit yet, so I have no idea how she took it, but was a long line-by-line and there was no way I was deleting it at that point. (and for the record, NO ONE goes through someone else's work line-by-line for half an hour because they get a kick out of finding things wrong with it)

One thing that seems to be odd here (for those wanting a "kinder" approach) is that you seem to think any and all crits are the final word. They're not. There's nothing saying they're correct, or that you even have to use them. But if you post for crit, you literally "asked for it".

And getting blasted by an agent/publisher is hardly the worst thing that can happen. The worst thing is silence as they toss your gently handled baby into the shredder.
 

Karen Duvall

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Wee hee! I found it! Check out this awesome crit:

Originally Posted by Karen Duvall View Post
Branded with a gargoyle's curse, a modern day knight is forced to steal enchanted artifacts for her master, or else become a monster like the one tattooed on her neck. Freedom is hers if she kills the gargoyle that cursed her, unless it kills her first.

That was my sucky hook above, which has since been fixed. Here's the critters remarks:

Why do I care that she's been stealing artifacts if killing the gargoyle is the solution to her problem? For that matter, what makes her a knight --there's nothing particularly knightly, modern or otherwise, about stealing artifacts.

My point is, it looks like you've got about sixteen words of story and the rest is backstory. I don't care (or even understand) her tattoo. I don't care about her career in larceny. I get her story goal in the last sentence...so what's standing in her way? What's the conflict?

Hope this helps!

Pretty great, huh? No nonsense, to the point, extremely helpful. Tone? Meh. It works for me.
 

Cyia

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Ironically, I like the hook as is.

(And as far as the SYW crit I did, I went and checked the thread. The OP added a post saying she's a teenager, has no self-esteem, and clinically depressed so being harsh is bad. -- yes that's paraphrased)
 

Ken

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before closing off,

I just wanted to say that though I disagree with you on the subject of tone, and a number of other things, and personally wouldn't mind sticking a match under some of your feet and lighting it, at this point in time, I do have a lot of respect for you as writers, having read some of your posted stuff, and you're insightful critiques, and remarks in other forums on this site, just to let you know. (Not kissing up here, I swear, well maybe just a little ;-) But honestly, I do feel as such. Yer a motely group of thugs, but likeable, odd to say. Cheers.
 

Cranky

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Wee hee! I found it! Check out this awesome crit:



That was my sucky hook above, which has since been fixed. Here's the critters remarks:



Pretty great, huh? No nonsense, to the point, extremely helpful. Tone? Meh. It works for me.


I quite like it, too. It shows exactly what the reader is thinking as they're reading along. Better to have a critter tell you "I'm thinking: who cares?", which gives you a chance to fix it.
 

Bubastes

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That crit is exactly the kind I find helpful. It's almost like a list I can check off to see if the revised version is better than the original. If the reader's first response is "Who cares?" then I need to know that ASAP!
 

quickWit

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before closing off,

I just wanted to say that though I disagree with you on the subject of tone, and a number of other things, and personally wouldn't mind sticking a match under some of your feet and lighting it, at this point in time, I do have a lot of respect for you as writers, having read some of your posted stuff, and you're insightful critiques, and remarks in other forums on this site, just to let you know. (Not kissing up here, I swear, well maybe just a little ;-) But honestly, I do feel as such. Yer a motely group of thugs, but likeable, odd to say. Cheers.

You spelled motley wrong, doofus. :D

Have a good day.
 

NeuroFizz

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Okay. Let's cut the bullshit cow frisbies. Here is the deal. The SYW forum has evolved over many years based on the participation of a large body of members (it is a community of writers). That evolution has resulted in a set of "rules" that have been formalized by the mods, but the interpretation of those rules is still be determined by the committee of a whole (the entire community) and has been over those years. One person, or a handful of people, don't have the right to come into a community and insist that the rules be changed, particularly if absolutely no data is presented to suggest that a change has to be made. No one should come into an established community and expect to tell everyone how they should change their ways. It's up to the newcomer to adapt to the community, not the other way around. SYW is and has been working extremely well. A handful of people (in terms of the total community size) are getting upset, and frankly any community that does that well is a model community. So, if you don't like the way the community runs, try to change it from the inside. Join and produce the kinds of crits you want to see. But don't expect the others to suddently and completely change the way they crit. If any new person can't handle that, there are two clear options: don't come in and go find another site that will have a community more to your likes and dislikes. We sincerely hope y'all will join our community. We have a lot to offer. And I think you'll find it is nothing like y'all are imagining in your hypotheticals. To those of sensitive stomachs for honest, blunt, but non-rude crits, it may be in your best interest to listen to what is said and try to not read into how it is said (because you will likely be dead wrong). The adjusting it up to you as a single member of a large community. The best part--that adjusting is in a direction that will be essential for your continued success in this writing/publishing business.
 
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