Explicit novels = tawdry 'new feminism'?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MetalDog

Woof!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
288
Reaction score
44
Location
Greater London
These aren't people I'm hanging out with - but I do listen to people in general, it's handy for the writing. I'm also not critising males exclusively, I reckon society as a whole needs a healthier attitude towards sex that isn't at the extreme ends of the scale. It's just an opinion - and one I've tried to put across politely, I'm not out to offend anyone.
 

truelyana

Set yourself free
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
4,283
Reaction score
3,060
Location
Surrey, United Kingdom
Website
expressiveworld.com
These aren't people I'm hanging out with - but I do listen to people in general, it's handy for the writing. I'm also not critising males exclusively, I reckon society as a whole needs a healthier attitude towards sex that isn't at the extreme ends of the scale. It's just an opinion - and one I've tried to put across politely, I'm not out to offend anyone.

I agree. :)
 

Romantic Heretic

uncoerced
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,624
Reaction score
354
Website
www.romantic-heretic.com
Read the article.

My opinion? I think the author is somewhat burned out from her years working as an erotic reviewer. I also think she's drawing a general principle from a severely limited data set.

What an utterly human thing to do. ;)
 

justinai

SHAZAM!!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
170
Reaction score
31
Location
Pennsyltucky
I read the article, and it seems like this is more of the "how can you read that crap?" backlash. The same thing happened here when "ghetto lit" became popular because apparently black people were only supposed to read about black people behaving nicely in the suburbs or being oppressed, heaven forbid you read something that you could enjoy or identify with.

I'm sorry, but not everyone enjoys literary fiction. Sometimes when you read you just want to be entertained.

Look, I think it's safe to say that women today have sex. A lot of it. And those who don't have sex probably want to read about women who do have sex. I would bet dollars to donuts that the women who read the erotica novels, especially the fantasy leaning ones or the ones with vampires, are looking for an escape. They're the ones NOT out having casual sex with mutliple partners. (Cause everyone knows slutty girls can't read...joking!) They are very nice mothers and grandmothers who finish their morning coffee and read through a paragraph filled with heaving chests and gasping breaths. Then they go off and do some housework or go to their job, not sleep with the first guy they find.

BTW, my mother is a huge fan of the erotica genre. And she is most definitely not out sleeping around.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
For Jumpin' baby Jebus' sake, Steve - don't mention bLiar and Brown within a fifty mile radius of the word 'erotica'!!!
 

StevenJ

Bored Fanatic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
774
Reaction score
367
Location
Wales, sadly. :D
Website
www.salvatorepublishing.com
Don't worry about the effects of that article, chief - the only people who take the Mail seriously are Mail readers...y'know, reactionary 'Angry of Mayfair' types. The article sits well alongside other typical Mail headlines like: 'Foreigners - Round 'em up; Kill 'em all'.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,980
Reaction score
6,922
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
Hmmm. I read the thread first and the article second, so maybe any ire I'd have felt burned up before I got there, because what I took away from it was - you should need to be able to write well to gain success in the world of books. Lots of sex and the willingness to describe it isn't a good enough reason to slap it between a pair of covers and call it worth anything.

I saw the article as an expression of the same thing I feel about the candy aisle at the grocery nowadays. Chocolate is grand -- or at least, it can be. Cheap shit bogged down with inferior ingredients, a spoonful of wax, and a smidgen of cocoa is poison. But they call it candy, market it like it's more than what it actually is, like it's cool, it's hip, it's fun just waiting to burst from its wrapper, it'll make your day and plaster a smile on your face like nothing else.

People buy it up, eat it, get diabetes and fat on it, and, worst of all, numb their tongues to the bliss of proper sweets: quality products mixed with care from recipes developed by people who actually have a knack for confectionery.

I saw far less condemnation of actual, real sexual practices than I did a complaint about diluting the usage of such experiences as an easy way to turn a buck and sell a trend, especially divorced from any talent to have earned the chance to do so.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
Don't worry about the effects of that article, chief - the only people who take the Mail seriously are Mail readers...y'know, reactionary 'Angry of Mayfair' types. The article sits well alongside other typical Mail headlines like: 'Foreigners - Round 'em up; Kill 'em all'.

Phew. Just don't start writing Lembit Opik slashfic.

And Perks - if you're going to be all mature and sensible in one of my threads, well damn you, woman. Damn you to Hades!

(Or Wales, which is much the same thing).
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
What exactly is the "diabetes" people get from reading sexy stories? Is is moral diabetes or just a bad case of lowbrow-itis?

Because I see the article writer being upset that she isn't setting the standard of what people are "allowed" to read. Which begs the question, why shouldn't people decide for themselves? Unless you think actual societal damage is done by adults choosing to read about threeways and spanking?
 
Last edited:

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,980
Reaction score
6,922
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
What exactly is the "diabetes" people get from reading sexy stories? Is is moral diabetes or just a bad case of lowbrow-itis?
I didn't mean sexy stories. I meant poorly written stories, sexy or otherwise. The author of that article was complimentary of some sexually explicit work.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,980
Reaction score
6,922
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
Because I see the article writer being upset that she isn't setting the standard of what people are "allowed" to read. Which begs the question, why shouldn't people decide for themselves? Unless you think actual societal damage is done by adults choosing to read about threeways and spanking?

I agree with you that there is an element of that to this article, but what struck me most was her complaining of the quality of the books she was talking about and that the quality issue was low-brow and bad for 'culture'. Hence my bad candy analogy.

And I did make the disclaimer that I'd read this thread first. The slant of the article may have hit me differently if I'd done it in the reverse order.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
The impression I got from this article was that the writer believes reading or writing erotica turns you into a non-discriminating scrubber who binge drinks to mask her self-loathing.

That, and I doubt she even knows what erotica is.

Or how un-sexy some of these memoirs actually are. They detail conquests, yes, but not graphically. (Graphicly?) They're anything but erotica. So I reckon she's confusing her genres.

Besides - being free with one's favours doesn't mean one lacks all self-control in the same way that drinking a lot doesn't make one a junkie, and having lots of sex doesn't make one an alcoholic.

Enjoying something to the full doesn't mean you're addicted, nor does it mean you lack any discrimination in any area of your life.

But like StevenJ said, we ARE talking about the Daily Mail here.

signed,

Righteously Indignant from Scotland.
 

StevenJ

Bored Fanatic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
774
Reaction score
367
Location
Wales, sadly. :D
Website
www.salvatorepublishing.com
Women have tolerated men objectifying them for centuries - I hardly think that women (allegedly) reversing this is going to destroy civilisation.

And yet again, there's the standard Mail dig at the so-called ladettes...how tiresome.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
I'm reminded of a quote from my good mate Karol Wojtyla. "To be successful as a woman does not mean to be like a man."

Feminism doesn't mean behaving in the same manner as the lowest common (male) denominator has for centuries up 'til now in the name of equality. I don't like drunk women, but then again...I don't like drunk men.

I think here we need to separate the image of 'woman who enjoys sex' from 'women who binge drink and can't keep their knickers on', two aspects of so-called ladettes which are linked - wrongly - in many people's minds.

This has been SP's only mature post of the day. Enjoy it while it lasts, folks.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,980
Reaction score
6,922
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
Besides - being free with one's favours doesn't mean one lacks all self-control in the same way that drinking a lot doesn't make one a junkie, and having lots of sex doesn't make one an alcoholic.
Yeah, this is the part I didn't get strongly from that article. It was there, but it all hinged on this quote for me -

Surely it's time to recognise that the way anyone has sex is a matter of personal preference, not dubious gender politics.

It seemed that her chief complaint after that point was made was over the cashing-in on Jerry Springer-style sensationalism and the claim that poorly-written erotic literature was somehow emancipating and a triumph of feminism.
 

StevenJ

Bored Fanatic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
774
Reaction score
367
Location
Wales, sadly. :D
Website
www.salvatorepublishing.com
There will always be literary bandwagon-jumpers *hides glittery vampire WIP* - I notice that my local WH Smith has a whole shelf set aside for 'A Boy called It'-type nonfiction now...

This is not necessarily the fault of writers, rather, opportunistic publishers - after all, it's the publishers who dictate what the public can buy/read.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,980
Reaction score
6,922
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
This is not necessarily the fault of writers, rather, opportunistic publishers - after all, it's the publishers who dictate what the public can buy/read.
And isn't that a Mobius strip?

As I see it, absolutely any subject, when crafted with care and ability, can be written so that it's interesting, thought-provoking, and enriching. One of my absolute favorite books of all-time is appalling in its subject matter and point-of-view, but it's a masterpiece by its craftsmanship and the amount of thought and talent that went into it.

Same with food. And sometimes I just have to have my Cheetos. Now who draws the line at what's cuisine and what's junkfood? There are some obvious examples that could illustrate the poles, but many edibles are going to fall somewhere in the middle.

And whatever my cravings, I still don't mind being reminded to eat my veggies (Hey! Vegetables can be erotic. Do not ask me to elaborate.) The better quality of the food I ingest, the better off I'll be.

It's always been this way, the wrangling about what's good and what's bad. I think it is constructive, ultimately, to stand back and look at what's out there, in general and in specific, because it keeps us at the top of our game. Defending art where we find it, or where we don't find it, has always been part of the dialogue in these circles.

I think Ms. Pelling, as Romantic Heretic pointed out upthread, does sound burned out on sexy books. If the percentage of poorly written dreck is as high there as it is elsewhere, it's forgiveable.

Of course, this is only speaking to that part of the article, not the general commentary on 'loose' women.
 

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
6,449
Reaction score
1,321
Ah, the perennial "PEOPLE ARE READING TRASH RAWR RAWR" fulmination, with a little added spin of self-loathing sexism. Par for the Daily Mail course.

Yes, of course some crappy, dishonest books are published in every genre every single year in every country. My personal give a damn has been broken on that for a long time.
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,029
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
Hmm I seem to be seeing the same as Perks - the writer is bemoaning the quality of the writing, not that it's written ( and also that as a mum, it seems to be promoting 'oh if you aren't shagging everyone in sight you are sooo last week) and that badly written 'feminist shag stories' are somehow a huzzah for women, and shouldn't be.

Post-Belle any British woman with a string of lovers, or clients, and a taste for exhibitionism was rushed into print. No matter if they couldn't string a decent sentence together.

I remember being at a publisher's summer party where a male agent was enthusing to an editor about a group of women in Putney who were prepared to bare every last detail of their collective love lives.

'But can they write?' I ventured. The two men turned and looked at me as if I was mad.

They were female, they'd had copious sex, they would spill the beans - that was enough.

I am certainly not saying that women shouldn't write about sex, merely that they must do so for a reason.

And have we all not said that gratuitous anything in a book is a turn off? Volience, sex, whatever. If it's gratuitous, it doesn't belong. It's boring.


This is not to say I don't enjoy erotica - I do. But I like well written erotica, not trash. Well written stuff which has a point to make can enhance feminism. Trashy writing is just that - trash. And sadly gets eaten up by the Big Brother brainwashed clones as 'a good read' *facepalm*

Of course pubs jump on erotica - it's selling like whassname at the moment. But if they could just stop the KERCHING in their eyes and print stuff that has something to say other than 'I am teh awesome cos I shag' , it might help

Oh, and I'm a binge drinking slapper :D
 

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
I don't think the article writer is talking about erotica though. She picks on books containing sex and labels it as such.

Pretty much my impression, too. I find it interesting how Ms Pellings starts with Wetlands (Feuchtgebiete) and how it's so graphic that people faint at readings (it is that graphic), and leads up to "sleeping around", when that's most certainly not the aspect of the book that earns the author the feminist label. I would have loved for Ms Pellings to take on the core content of Wetlands, which is - clinically put - the relationship between hygiene and cosmetics, portrayed through a fetish for the body and bodily exrections via a protagonist and narrator with no shame whatsoever. I have a link for you, but it's not for everyone: Warning, bodily exrections and questionable behaviour abounds. I quite like the link; they even provide a better translation for the original German title.

So basically I think the article's a reaction to the publication of a controversial book whose controversy is too taboo to tackle directly, so the thing to do is to go off on a well-trodden tangent.

Bodies =/= sex =/= eroitca =/= porn.

***

ETA: On second thought, I might have overemphasised the book. There was the cover-comment, which I actually found interesting: "The covers are designed for public transport and belie the contents." Made me wonder about categorising books. (Wetlands made the mainstream shelves, in Germany, for example, and has a simple red cover with author and title plus the picture of an adhesive bandage. amazon image) This does somewhat evoke the "brown paperbag"...
 
Last edited:

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,980
Reaction score
6,922
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
...and print stuff that has something to say other than 'I am teh awesome cos I shag' , it might help

Holy crap. Now that was just funny.

Hershey's chocolate and 'good reads' shall be the downfall of Western Civilization.

Oh - and Ryan Seacrest. He cannot be good for us.
 

Kate Thornton

Still Happy to be Here. Or Anywhere
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
2,809
Reaction score
899
Location
Sunny SoCal
Website
www.katethornton.net
I'm reminded of a quote from my good mate Karol Wojtyla. "To be successful as a woman does not mean to be like a man."

Feminism doesn't mean behaving in the same manner as the lowest common (male) denominator has for centuries up 'til now in the name of equality. I don't like drunk women, but then again...I don't like drunk men.

I think here we need to separate the image of 'woman who enjoys sex' from 'women who binge drink and can't keep their knickers on', two aspects of so-called ladettes which are linked - wrongly - in many people's minds.

This has been SP's only mature post of the day. Enjoy it while it lasts, folks.

Quoted for truth.

And for its rarity and fine use of the language. Great post, SP.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.