93-yr old man dies after city cuts his power for upaid bills

TerzaRima

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Slow and painful were the medical examiner's determination - an expert in death.

My guess is that his body showed evidence of frostbite, which would be painful initially, on autopsy.
 

Clair Dickson

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Is the family either pressing charges or filing a lawsuit? With the information I have, the power company has blatantly broken the law--and it cost someone his life. His life matters more, not less, because he was old. The fewer moments one has left, the more precious they become.



Ah. I see your point, then. We old hens really do need a place to cluck. :p

Bartholomew, according to Michigan law. (I posted the link above.) If the guy wasn't making the required payments, then the law in Michigan does allow the company to shut off services. Sorry, but Michigan law does allow the company to cut off power if no payment is being made. Until we have record of whether or not the man was making any payments at all, as required by Mich law, then we can't assume the company broke the law.
 

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Bartholomew, according to Michigan law. (I posted the link above.) If the guy wasn't making the required payments, then the law in Michigan does allow the company to shut off services. Sorry, but Michigan law does allow the company to cut off power if no payment is being made. Until we have record of whether or not the man was making any payments at all, as required by Mich law, then we can't assume the company broke the law.

Hm.

This is why I'll always support the tiniest bit of socialism. Just enough, see, to prevent crap like this. Would heating his home in the dead of winter really have cost that much? They saved a penny--earned a penny--but at a much higher cost than two cents. Sure, THEY don't have to pay for the funeral and the post-mort services, but the family does. That could have been any of our grandparents, and some of our parents.

In my book, if you kill someone--even on accident--you pick up the bill.
 
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Contemplative

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Hm.

This is why I'll always support the tiniest bit of socialism. Just enough, see, to prevent crap like this. Would heating his home in the dead of winter really have cost that much? They saved a penny--earned a penny--but at a much higher cost than two cents. Sure, THEY don't have to pay for the funeral and the post-mort services, but the family does. That could have been any of our grandparents, and some of our parents.

In my book, if you kill someone--even on accident--you pick up the bill.

I think preventing "crap like this" would require more than "a little" socialism, and more than socialism, period.

The law can't discriminate cases like this. If there's a 1000$ unpaid heating bill... maybe the guy's moved on, maybe it's an empty shack, maybe a megacorp forgot to pay the heating for one of their large-scale facilities. You are underestimating the cost in bureaucracy of trying to get a state ministry to make humanitarian decisions.

And like others had said, the state provides for people having to have heat over the winter through Welfare, AFAIK. It sounds like he wasn't on welfare and may not have been mentally competent.

I'm all for heating as a basic human need that should be subsidized, mind you. I'm just saying that it sounds like there were things going on here other than lack of social services, and blaming the power company is specious.

If the power company gives everyone free heat over the winter instead of Welfare giving those who need it free heat, that means I, a middle class guy who can afford the heat, get a bennie at the expense of some other social program somewhere, like free textbooks for an inner city school, or employment insurance for rapidly changing industries, or whatever.

We cannot design a welfare state around statistical edge cases that happen to evoke strong emotion from us.

EDIT: As an aside: homeless people die in winter here in Alberta ALL THE TIME. It's regular enough to not be news, because, duh, we have lots of homeless and -30 winters. Wouldn't it be better to build some livable heated shelters for them, than to worry about a 93-year-old hermit who hasn't accepted the aid available and hasn't looked into his bills in months? Ditto lots of Native reserves in both Canada and America, which I know for a fact have this issue, which never becomes news outside the Native community.
 
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Bartholomew

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I think preventing "crap like this" would require more than "a little" socialism, and more than socialism, period.

The law can't discriminate cases like this. If there's a 1000$ unpaid heating bill... maybe the guy's moved on, maybe it's an empty shack, maybe a megacorp forgot to pay the heating for one of their large-scale facilities.

[...]

We cannot design a welfare state around statistical edge cases that happen to evoke strong emotion from us.

Yes, red tape is very irritating and costs money. It's not like they could have checked the age of the occupant and then sent someone by the house to see if someone lived there before they cut the power. That would require large scale social upheaval.

Or, you know, a filing cabinet and a truck. I'm willing to bet that infrastructure was already in place.

Emotion is not a factor - if one values human life, it is necesary to be careful when doing something that could end one.

Oh well. Hindsight is 20-20. Maybe I would have done the same thing.

I'm all for heating as a basic human need that should be subsidized, mind you. I'm just saying that it sounds like there were things going on here other than lack of social services, and blaming the power company is specious.

The coroner said he died from the cold, yes? Heat was provided by the utility company, yes?

Accidents DO happen, and sometimes accidents kill people -- but someone is always culpable, and until the evidence shifts its weight elsewhere, it seems apparent to me that the utility company is at fault.
 

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So what's so unreasonable about the utility company simply allowing the electricity to remain on until April 1? Were they worried that maybe the unpaid bill by April 1st would amount to as much as $2,000? or $3,000? Big frickin' deal! They couldn't spare two-and-a-half more months of electricity???? I highly doubt that utility was on the verge of bankurptcy. I highly doubt three thousand frigging dollars was going to drive them to the poor house.
 

TerzaRima

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The electric company is culpable, but they're not alone. Multiple people failed this guy--his family, his neighbors, his friends. His physician. Here, the electric company will hold on turning it off if they have a signed letter from a doctor indicating that a resident of the property uses medical equipment requiring a working outlet and power supply--for example, a nebulizer for an asthmatic child--and I've done that many times for people.

This poor guy probably just needed someone to wade through the red tape for him, and he didn't have it.
 

kuwisdelu

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Multiple people failed this guy--his family, his neighbors, his friends.

Huh?

Lots of these old guys are pretty proud. They don't want to be a "burden" on anyone else, and think they can tough out this kind of thing on their own. Not all of them have phones.

I guess I understand, because I'm kind of the same way. I don't often ask for help, because of my pride, and I don't expect anyone to call me up on a daily basis to ask "are you still alive?"
 

Clair Dickson

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Of course, this could have been a cantankerous old man who tried to chase the electric company folks off his lawn with a cane instead of listening to what they were trying to tell him about the limiter and such. We really don't know. While it's easy to jump on the electric company, we do have to remember that the folks who work at the electric company are people, too. They may have tried to help, but you can't help a person who refuses your aid.

My hubby's 98 year old grandpa refuses every piece of aide that his children try to get for him, from elevated toilet seats to a recliner that will help him stand. Won't accept it. He was LIVID when his doctor told him he couldn't drive anymore. Grampa Joe couldn't understand it-- he's never been in an accident. And he has no idea how those dents got on his car... He's got family watching out for him, but it's awful hard to fight a man who's damned determined not to be 'treated like a child.' Far as he's concerned, he's still the dad and his kids are still kids... and dad knows what he's doing.

While this is a tragedy, we do have to keep in mind that we don't know all the factors that played into it. He may have refused help. What do you do then? How long does it take to get someone evaluted to force them to take your help? I don't know. I may find out soon enough if Grampa Joe deteriorates much more. But, right now, if he were in this other guy's place, I'd guess Gramp Joe would be awful stubborn about doing thins his way and downright insulted if someone suggested he couldn't take care of himself anymore. Just something to keep in mind here.

Do I think the state should step in? It's a fine line. At 93, if this man was competent, he may have been ready to die. It's not unheard of. I mean, in another thread, there's a report about a man shooting himself and his kids after losing his job. The $1k electricity bill may not have been the only overdue bill this 93 year old man had-- maybe he saw no other way out, and no reason to go on.
 

TerzaRima

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I don't expect anyone to call me up on a daily basis to ask "are you still alive?"

IIRC, you're in college and healthy--so I would think there was something distinctly odd if you did expect that. But that wasn't the case here. And there's a lot of territory between infantilizing someone into dependency and abandoning them to this kind of death.
 

kuwisdelu

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IIRC, you're in college and healthy--so I would think there was something distinctly odd if you did expect that. But that wasn't the case here. And there's a lot of territory between infantilizing someone into dependency and abandoning them to this kind of death.

I don't think it's abandoning anyone. Some people just want to live on their own, to the best of their ability, and not only don't ask for help, but outright refuse it, like in Clair's example. Some of them just don't have any good way to be contacted short of a road trip except by snail mail. One of my girlfriend's great uncles died just this way in New York several years ago. It's not that they didn't care--it's just that they didn't know. Yes, it's unfortunate, but I don't think blaming the family is fair.
 

TerzaRima

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It's not that they didn't care--it's just that they didn't know. Yes, it's unfortunate, but I don't think blaming the family is fair.

Perhaps not, but how do you get to the point where you don't know? (I know, multiple anecdata about estranged crazy cousins will follow).

If I had a relative who met this sort of end, I would feel some culpability whether I knew about his situation beforehand or not--not the sole culpability, but some. This is the kind of outcome that extended families and communities are supposed to prevent, not primarily the electric company.

And if someone doesn't want help, okay. You keep communicating with them to build some trust and keep the door open.
 

kuwisdelu

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Perhaps not, but how do you get to the point where you don't know? (I know, multiple anecdata about estranged crazy cousins will follow).

No one has to be estranged for it to happen. It can be as simple as living far from a relative and having no good way to quickly contact them.

ETA: Or even living within driving distance, but being too snowed-in that getting on the road is impossible. If you had to choose between paying the electric/heating bill and the phone bill, which would you logically pay first?
 
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GeorgeK

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The coroner said he died from the cold, yes?.

But who is the coroner in that particular location? Here it is an elected position with no educational requirements. Usually it's a mortician (here). If that story happened here, I would not at all be surprised that

1, A superviser at the electric company reviews the shut-offs at the end of the week and says, "What? You shut off the electric to old Clem's place? We'd better go check it out.

2, Coroner walks in after they find him dead and says, "Man it's cold as hell in here. I can see my breath."

3, Deputy says, "He's frozen stiff."

4, Coroner glances at the man and announces, "Must have died from the cold."

5, the family would demand an actual autopsy done my a Medical Examiner.

6, the autopsy and review of information might show that the guy died of old age and it happened to be in the winter and he kept his place cold to keep heating costs down. There was a coincidence of timing and someone shooting off their mouth.

I'm not saying that is what happened here, just that we don't have enough information to reliably say anything other than an old man died. Now if there is an actual autopsy and it shows more, then...
 
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ColoradoGuy

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I dealt with a county coroner once who was a clerk in a hardware store and who had seen too many old episodes of Quincy. Boy, was he an idiot.
 

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I can clarify some of the questions asked here. Now I can't quote the article, because it's from a source which rhymes with ABI.

However, from my paper:

He had no children. His wife died a couple years ago. He did have relatives.

The power company did not turn off his power. They installed a limiter device, which pops like a circuit breaker after a certain amount of power is consumed.

To get more power, the customer must go out to the meter to reset the breaker, then they get another dose of power. It makes it a pain in the backside, but it keeps the power on, encouraging folks to pay up.

The man had enough money in the house with him to pay all his bills. The bills, with many others, were found on a table with money attached to them. He apparently didn't think to mail any of them. The man also apparently had some $600,000 in cash assets, not including his home, etc.

Considering the real facts of the case, the utility didn't kill this man. His own demand for independent living killed him. He needed help, and he refused it.

No social program can help folks like this, because it would take a caretaker per person, and we just can't afford that. (He had enough money to hire someone himself, though.) The result would be that these elderly people would be herded into 'old folks homes' en masse. That doesn't sound like a good idea, either.

While folks are ranting at the utility for being so evil, wrongly so, lots more folks are freezing because of a winter storm in the central USA. Why isn't there outrage for those people? Certainly the utility should supply everyone with their own emergency generator. . .
 

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All I can think, whenever I see this header, is how lonely and scared he must have been at the end.
 

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All I can think, whenever I see this header, is how lonely and scared he must have been at the end.

I agree, Claudia, it is a very sad death, very lonely.


I started to contemplate what was going through his mind when he realized that the power was out, and he likely had no clue as to how to get it back on, and perhaps his phone was also turned off so maybe he couldn't even call anyone. And so all he could do then was just lie down in the dark and freeze to death. After only ten seconds of imagining that, I couldn't think about it anymore. I came close to tears and willfully had to distract myself.

I am usually game for thinking through the hypothetical possibilities of dramatic and emotion-packed scenarios to the enth degree, but in this instacne I just couldn't do it. I could more easilly think through a hypothetical rape scene than I could this situation.
 

TerzaRima

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But who is the coroner in that particular location? Here it is an elected position with no educational requirements.

Good point, and that did not occur to me. I'm spoiled because I'm one of those sissy citified docs :)

I appreciate that an elderly person would prefer to be independent--it's probably in part because nursing home care is so paternalistic and draconian in some ways. But I don't think this kind of thing should ever happen in this country.
 

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So what's so unreasonable about the utility company simply allowing the electricity to remain on until April 1? Were they worried that maybe the unpaid bill by April 1st would amount to as much as $2,000? or $3,000? Big frickin' deal! They couldn't spare two-and-a-half more months of electricity???? I highly doubt that utility was on the verge of bankurptcy. I highly doubt three thousand frigging dollars was going to drive them to the poor house.

I cannot, and do not, expect a company to adopt expensive socialistic policies on its own. In fact, I think that large scale socialistic policies are, for the most part, detrimental to society, even when they do help people.

A little socialism is all we need--and it's really all a system of government can stand before things start going to hell.

But that's another subject.

But who is the coroner in that particular location? Here it is an elected position with no educational requirements. Usually it's a mortician (here). If that story happened here, I would not at all be surprised that

1, A superviser at the electric company reviews the shut-offs at the end of the week and says, "What? You shut off the electric to old Clem's place? We'd better go check it out.

2, Coroner walks in after they find him dead and says, "Man it's cold as hell in here. I can see my breath."

3, Deputy says, "He's frozen stiff."

4, Coroner glances at the man and announces, "Must have died from the cold."

5, the family would demand an actual autopsy done my a Medical Examiner.

6, the autopsy and review of information might show that the guy died of old age and it happened to be in the winter and he kept his place cold to keep heating costs down. There was a coincidence of timing and someone shooting off their mouth.

I'm not saying that is what happened here, just that we don't have enough information to reliably say anything other than an old man died. Now if there is an actual autopsy and it shows more, then...

If I follow this logic, I can systematically eliminate the validity of every source, everywhere, whenever I please.

I can use comma splices if I want! That stupid tutor is just someone who gets good grades because he kisses the teacher's butt... ad nauseum.

Until something proves that the Coroner is not a reliable source, I must treat him as if he is reliable.

I can clarify some of the questions asked here. Now I can't quote the article, because it's from a source which rhymes with ABI.

However, from my paper:

He had no children. His wife died a couple years ago. He did have relatives.

The power company did not turn off his power. They installed a limiter device, which pops like a circuit breaker after a certain amount of power is consumed.

[...]

No social program can help folks like this, because it would take a caretaker per person, and we just can't afford that. (He had enough money to hire .

There are equal amounts of culpability to go around. Much of it lies with the dead old man. Sad as I am to type it, the $1000 debt was his fault, or the very least, the fault of his body.

Another portion lies with his family, because our expected family structure calls for us to care for those who cannot care for themselves, no matter how much they gripe.

And another portion lies with the electric company, largely because of the limiting device. How likely is it that the average utility company worker would explain this device to a 90+ year old man adequately? Technophobia, limited hearing, forgetfulness--these are all common with the elderly. So are tempers. My money rides the wager that our dead old man had, honestly, no idea what this device was or how it worked. I also wager that the utility worker who's responsibility it was to explain the device did not do so well enough for the old man to completely grasp the concept.

At the end of the day, we have only a corpse and culpability. No one cared enough to drive by and check on this man after the device had been installed, and the dead man had accumulated the debt to begin with.

We don't need a social program to prevent problems like this. We need someone in the circle of culpability to have cared.


If the company has to pay a fine, or else cover the costs of the funeral, then perhaps they will put in place a company policy of checking on their limiting devices in cold weather.(This would be the "little bit of socialism" I keep harping on.)

If enough people read this story and talk about it, perhaps families will adopt a policy of calling grandpa every other day or so.

Or maybe we'll all start paying our electricity bills when they're due.

History is useless if we don't take something away from it.
 
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I started to contemplate what was going through his mind when he realized that the power was out, and he likely had no clue as to how to get it back on, and perhaps his phone was also turned off so maybe he couldn't even call anyone. And so all he could do then was just lie down in the dark and freeze to death. After only ten seconds of imagining that, I couldn't think about it anymore...

If he was that lucid, perhaps he thought about how he wished he'd paid his bills on time.
 

Vincent

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If he was that lucid, perhaps he thought about how he wished he'd paid his bills on time.

I hope it was a quick death then. I don't know how he could live with himself knowing he'd ripped off the power company that thousand dollars.
 
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Jesus, people. Is anyone saying they're glad he's dead, or how evil he is for ripping off the power company?

No.

We're saying he had the bills. He had the money to pay the bills. Why didn't he pay them?
 

Jerry B. Flory

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Not paying bills saves money.

If he had the ability to pay bills it's also possible he had the ability to say, "the lights went out. Good, now maybe those power idiots will quit making that racket outside and let me die in peace."