Does anyone here believe in fate?

Fate, and its bastard cousin, predestination, are interesting because given a choice, it doesn't matter what we choose because the choice never existed. So we are never really given choices. It's great circular logic. It's also convenient because it can take us off the hook for everything--it takes responsibility for our actions totally off the table. Of course, those who use the concept of fate to explain some of the events in their lives while insisting that free will still exists, are just predestined to do so by fate, which means by their lack of free will. So free will is only expressed through fate, which excludes that very free will. But fate will free free will from any responsibility over our actions, which means fate is predestined, and therefore, we can't use fate to explain any occurrences in our lives because it was all laid out for us and wasn't an occurrence, but a planned action. And all of those actions have no reactions because if they are planned, there is no reacting but only planned acting. And if you've read this far, you know that my will is free to make light of predestination, which is a reaction to the concept, which negates the possibility of it being any kind of fate. And only in a fate-free zone are we free to post in a thread like this totally making fun of ourselves.

I love those studies that show that by the time a person makes a decision to move his hand, the signal from his brain is already halfway down to the muscle that is going to move the hand. He thinks he has made a free will decision, but in fact he has only become aware of something his body is already doing.

I don't believe in fate or destiny or anything like that. It's a lot more pleasant to think that we have some measure of control, certainly full control over what we do.
But when Mohinder (on Heroes, of course) babbles on about it, sometimes I forget these firm views. =P

Palmfrond said:

I love those studies that show that by the time a person makes a decision to move his hand, the signal from his brain is already halfway down to the muscle that is going to move the hand. He thinks he has made a free will decision, but in fact he has only become aware of something his body is already doing.

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My partially tongue-in-cheek post above aside, what you've described here is a reflex action, where the action precedes conscious recognition of the act. This is still totally within the normal responses of the nervous system as the straight-through reflex pathway is quicker than the pathway to the conscious centers of the brain. It has nothing to do with free will or fate. It's all pure physiology. And neural activity that occurs outside of our consciousness, like postural adjustments, also has nothing to do with free will and fate. Again, it's all strictly dependent upon cellular physiology and circuitry within the nervous system--some of these reflexes can even occur with having a head (strictly spinal reflexes), as can coordinated alternate movements of the legs (the pattern generators for walking are located in the lower spinal cord).

In know it's tempting to think in these terms with physiological responses, but free will and fate are more a province of philosophy, than of simple (or even complex) physiology. But I'll thank you for mentioning these responses because these aspects of reflex physiology are really cool.

Fate, Peter Pan, and the Easter Bunny are the same person. They are the Holy Trinity of refusal to take responsibility for your own actions, refusal to grow up, and refusal to buy your own eggs.

What about the Tooth Fairy?

robeiae said:

What about the Tooth Fairy?

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That deals with developmentally programmed tooth loss, so it's predestination. Maybe even the parents' acknowledgement of that temporary predestination. Which means . . . um . . . later . . . free will kills the Tooth Fairy.

I believe in Harvey Dent.

Palmfrond said:

How is believing in "fate" different from believing in, say, Santa Claus?

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Fate is stoopit. Santa brings presents.

NeuroFizz said:

My partially tongue-in-cheek post above aside, what you've described here is a reflex action, where the action precedes conscious recognition of the act. This is still totally within the normal responses of the nervous system as the straight-through reflex pathway is quicker than the pathway to the conscious centers of the brain. It has nothing to do with free will or fate. It's all pure physiology. And neural activity that occurs outside of our consciousness, like postural adjustments, also has nothing to do with free will and fate. Again, it's all strictly dependent upon cellular physiology and circuitry within the nervous system--some of these reflexes can even occur with having a head (strictly spinal reflexes), as can coordinated alternate movements of the legs (the pattern generators for walking are located in the lower spinal cord).

In know it's tempting to think in these terms with physiological responses, but free will and fate are more a province of philosophy, than of simple (or even complex) physiology. But I'll thank you for mentioning these responses because these aspects of reflex physiology are really cool.

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Very cool. And really all that's necessary to describe what people perceive as "free will". My consciousness can be accounted for by a very complicated bag of electrochemical processes. The philosophical concept of free well is a side effect of the long time that it takes to become aware of our actions.

Mmkay.

Eskimo1990 said:

Reason I ask is...there's this guy. I've known him for nearly two years now.

Recently we've been trying to see each other again....

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Is this the same person you've dated before? If so, remember all of the problems concerning your relationship we discussed here some months ago when you were able to see him?

Fate has nothing to do with how you proceed now. Your past with this person, however, should guide you to seek greener pastures with someone else.

Reminds me of lines from an old Streisand tune:

...Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet
Whats too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget...

Silver King said:

Is this the same person you've dated before? If so, remember all of the problems concerning your relationship we discussed here some months ago when you were able to see him?

Fate has nothing to do with how you proceed now. Your past with this person, however, should guide you to seek greener pastures with someone else.

Reminds me of lines from an old Streisand tune:

...Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet
Whats too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget...

Click to expand...

I must admit I was wondering the same thing. If this is still the same guy, it just seems like too much heartache and problems are attached to this relationship. I do wish you the best of luck though.

i do.

but only if it suits me.

/bootay shake!

joyce said:

I must admit I was wondering the same thing. If this is still the same guy, it just seems like too much heartache and problems are attached to this relationship...

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I'm not sure what fate is, but I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with making the same mistakes over and over while wishing for a different outcome.

Fate happens to everyone. I can predict that in 2009, bad things will happen to everyone. Good things will also happen to everyone.

But here's the kicker--the effect they have on your life will be determined not by what happens, or how it happens, but by how you handle it. In other words, by your own choices.

Blaming "fate" or "predestination" for failure to achieve some goal is, as someone above pointed out, simply a way to avoid taking responsibility for your own actions and reactions, which come about through your free will.

With regards to your relationship, whether it's the same one as before or a new one: Whether or not it works out well will be determined by the choices that you and the man make. And I'm going to say right out that it seems a little fishy to me that he's copped out several times in a row. Fate, or his unconscious choice?

Call me harsh, but I say if a man really wants to be with you then he will be. Screw fate. If he's not with you right now, it's because he doesn't want to be.

I don't believe in fate. I believe that life is easy, we choose to make it hard. Life's full of choices and I don't believe some otherworldly being makes us do certain things.

(Keep in mind, I'm not talking about things we cannot control: struck by lightening or a drunk driver, a pregnancy forced to end in a tubal pregnancy, or contacting a disease we don't bring on ourselves like MS.)

I have a lot of trouble believing a two-hour drive is a problem. But I have to remind myself that it's relative. In a large-populated area, a two-hour drive can seem a huge distance and daunting. Here in Wyoming, people drive further than that for a good steak--literally.

Have you considered taking control of the situation? Instead of being "dependent" (for lack of a better word) on him to make it to you, can you take a bus to him (I don't know your age)? Or perhaps do something totally different: take a break from each other. No contact for a month or other time period. If he's drifting, then it may make him want to be with you and he'll make a concerted effort to make the trip. Or if he's drifting from you, he might find the nerve to say so. Plus it'll give YOU a break from the repetitive this weekend, this weekend, this weekend, .... Good luck.

One of my previous boyfriends used to drive well over two hours to come see me. He had a car. I didn't. It made sense that way. He didn't see it as a problem and yes, he had other commitments but he made time to see me because he wanted to.

I'm not saying this as a boast - hell, he dumped me in the end so why would I?! - but just to make the point that a two hour drive is nothing to a man who wants to see you. Heck, a friend of mine had a boyfriend who flew round the world to see her for less than a week.

A man who wants to see you won't let anything get in his way. A man who doesn't will create stumbling blocks where there are none.

Esk, I know I seem harsh on this. I mean well. I just hate to see anyone driving themselves crazy over another.

And it seems to me - I hope I'm wrong - that you're the only one getting tangled up in knots over this. You're moving. You're getting a car.

Let him make a move FFS. Let him prove how much he wants to see you.

And if he doesn't? Well...you've lost nothing.

Well, except some time.

Better that than your dignity.

My will is fate.

Being a hopeless (hopeful) romantic, I want to have some belief in fate.

I see it this way:
There are certain paths we may come to in our lives, and maybe that's the 'fate' part of it.
We also have free will at play, and the decisions we make when we come to those paths are our own free will.

The older I get, the harder it is to hang on to my 'silly' beliefs, but every now and then, life throws another 'aha' moment at me, and I'm able to continue believing.