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What do writers want from beta-readers?

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stitchingirl

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I think there's a difference between someone critiquing someone's work and just being downright heartless about it.

Yes, I may make a mistake or two. Or a certain section is giving me problems. Calling me imbecile or anything else is not a way to encourage me to fix it. "This section doesn't sound right. What are you seeing when you write this? Maybe the two of us can come up with something." THAT is helpful. I don't expect, nor do I want someone to write the story for me. But sometimes the thought from my brain to my fingers gets lost and I lose something. Nor do I expect or want for a beta to be a fluffy with their critiquing my work. Maybe since I've gotten to know one of my betas in the past 8 years since I've gotten one, we're more on a friendly basis. If there's something that it's obvious that I'm struggling with, she will help me. I believe that a beta is only as good as the writer. If you're a shit beta, then you'll be absolutely worthless with the critiquing. "Good, but it could be better." isn't helpful either. What is missing? What did you like and what didn't you? What could be better? Maybe I'm confusing a beta with something else. I think betas are there to help keep you on the write path (no, I did not misspell that one), as well as kick you in the pants when needed.
 

Wayne K

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If someone called me an imbecile, I'd e-mail them a punch in the face. Does that really happen?

I've never seen it
 

Samantha's_Song

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I always used to warn them before I got their MS, they knew what to expect. If they didn't like it afterwards. Shrugs. Tough shit.
I'd rather have Simon Cowell beta for me than someone who is afraid to seriously critique.

I've never actually called anyone any names when critiquing an MS though. It's not about the person, it's about the MS.
 
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Samantha's_Song

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This is a little off-topic. I've been ranting about getting 'reply all' emails from total strangers on Facebook for a while and then it stopped for about a month; I blocked all of them except the actual person I knew. Then bugger me if I didn't get another of their boring life story crap emails today and them moaning about me and saying I should get a life. I replied all and said that I must have a life of I wouldn't care about getting all of their boring emails. The one who was actually on my friendslist called me a bitch to her friends and it came back to me also. lol. So I told her what I thought of her and then blocked her too. You've got to love the internet. :D
If someone called me an imbecile, I'd e-mail them a punch in the face. Does that really happen?

I've never seen it
 

Cella

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Hi Samantha!

:hi:
 

Sieglinde

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I look for:

- pointing out possible grammar flaws, since English is not my first language
- people who know my era very well so they can give historical advice

So I like criticism if it's detailed and cnstructive.
 

xtine

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I think for me it depends on the draft and the relationship with the beta.

I dislike (in early drafts):

Line edit critiques (it's like changing the windshield wiper on a busted windshield)
Grammar, syntax, punctuation, spelling (my husband is an actual copy editor, he'll do that for me)
crossing clauses out and rearranging sentences (thanks, but no thanks)
Unconstructive criticism (I understand you don't like that scene. I probably don't either. Help?)

I like:

Questions about character motivation.
Issues with tension (what am I worried about here? What am I hoping for?)
Callouts on flat or cliche characters.
Challenges to make a scene/plot twist more involving.
Just big circles around paragraphs that are too long that say something like "clean up" or "tighten" or "do you need?"

Here is what I have found in life, the more experienced the beta, the fewer line edits I get.

Have you all found the same?

Again, this is all early draft stuff. By the time I get to later drafts most of the line-by-line stuff is cleaned up. (most, not all), so it's a different game.
 

thephoenix

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I'm saying this upfront and on the record. I read, religiously, and i will read your work as a reader, not as a writer. I will give you fresh eyes that will look at the story, and your writing from a reader's point of view. i'd like the same, but this is just what I do when critiquing work.
 

FOTSGreg

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No one who betas another author's work should ever imply that the author is an imbecile or even say such a thing straight out. That's simply inexcusably rude.

A beta reader needs to learn to be polite, but hard as nails when it comes to critiquing a irk. Yes, the piece might stink on toast, but there are very few works into which someone has poured hours and months of love and devotion that cannot be salvaged with a sufficient application of high explosives in the form if a really hard critique. In fact, it's much more likely that the author will benefit much more from a hard critique than they would from one that is soft-soaped.

However, that is not an excuse to be needlessly cruel. Hard is one thing, cruel is quite another.

One practice that a good beta (or even a good manager for that matter) needs to learn is to apply some kind of praise for the good parts of a work while applying hard criticism, tempered with constructive avenues for improvement, to anything they critique.

I wish I was better at it myself 'cause it sure ain't easy sometimes.
 

The Darc

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Maybe BRUTAL honesty is a bit much...

I know this is an old thread, but I just want to throw in my two cents on the "brutal honesty" method of beta reading. A lot of posters have said something along the lines of "Well, I'm just being honest. If they can't handle it, tough titties." While I agree that betas need to be honest, I disagree with this take it or leave it attitude. Our job is to help the writer improve, not make him give up. I believe the best way to do this is to be both honest and constructive.

Believe me, I understand why people love being brutally honest: It's fun! It's easy and oddly cathartic to write:

"I'm up to page 60, and I have no idea where your story is going. Your characters are flat, boring, and cliche. Good storytellers know how to make their plot and characters COMPELLING! So far you've failed to do this, and I honestly see no reason to keep reading."

It feels good to unleash your trenchant commentary on wee unsuspecting writers, doesn't it? It also makes some writers want to curl up and die.

Why not say the same thing, but be honest and constructive?:

"The pace in the beginning felt too slow. I don't understand where the story is headed or the motivations of your characters, so I don't feel compelled to keep reading. I think this is partly because the conflict doesn't really start until page 65. What if you started with the conflict, and filled in the characters' back story as you went along?"

It's not as wickedly fun for the beta, but I think this second style of criticism is more helpful for the average writer. That's been my approach as a reader, anyway, and no one's burst into tears yet.
 

sunandshadow

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I'm probably not the typical writer in search of a beta reader. But the kind of beta reader I would kill for is the kind who can read like an editor/publisher; specifically someone who can look at a plot synopsis and make suggestions for improving the plot structure.
 

Rebekkamaria

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My dream beta listens to me and knows when to be brutally honest, when to sugar-coat, when to concentrate on plot and characters, when to check grammar and spelling etc. I usually know what I can take. I can take horrible honesty, but I need to be in the right mood for it. I always say what I need: "Please tell me that I don't suck completely (concentrate on the positive)." or "Be as critical as possible (concentrate on everything that I need to fix)."

So what I want from a beta: the ability to listen to me. :) Fortunately I've had the pleasure of working with people who have this ability. I try to return the favour.

And when it comes to betaing itself... I appreciate great grammar skills. :) I'm good, but I'm far from perfect.

ETA: I feel the need to add: I usually know the people who beta for me, and if I haven't known them we've become friends through the process. And also, I'm always honest, and I expect the same from the other person as well. My husband is a very critical beta, but even he listens to me.
 
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Fame<Infamy

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I guess I should start thinking of what I want because I am going to be needing some soon more than likely.
 

Rowan

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I know this is an old thread, but I just want to throw in my two cents on the "brutal honesty" method of beta reading. A lot of posters have said something along the lines of "Well, I'm just being honest. If they can't handle it, tough titties." While I agree that betas need to be honest, I disagree with this take it or leave it attitude. Our job is to help the writer improve, not make him give up. I believe the best way to do this is to be both honest and constructive.

Believe me, I understand why people love being brutally honest: It's fun! It's easy and oddly cathartic to write:

"I'm up to page 60, and I have no idea where your story is going. Your characters are flat, boring, and cliche. Good storytellers know how to make their plot and characters COMPELLING! So far you've failed to do this, and I honestly see no reason to keep reading."

It feels good to unleash your trenchant commentary on wee unsuspecting writers, doesn't it? It also makes some writers want to curl up and die.

Why not say the same thing, but be honest and constructive?:

"The pace in the beginning felt too slow. I don't understand where the story is headed or the motivations of your characters, so I don't feel compelled to keep reading. I think this is partly because the conflict doesn't really start until page 65. What if you started with the conflict, and filled in the characters' back story as you went along?"

It's not as wickedly fun for the beta, but I think this second style of criticism is more helpful for the average writer. That's been my approach as a reader, anyway, and no one's burst into tears yet.

IMHO, this is what a beta should offer! Constructive advice. It's always nice to hear receive positive and negative comments, so you know what's working along with what isn't. I also find it helpful to suggest ways to correct the problem, when applicable. Not that you're doing the writer's job, but more along the lines of "may I suggest" or "have you considered".

:)
 

shadowwalker

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When I beta, I do line-edits along with the more 'general' comments about characterization, plot 'drift', etc. The writer gets the full package - unless they specifically state what they want/don't want.

I believe in being honest but not rude or nasty. I think most betas are also writers - we should be able to convey our ideas without driving a stake through the heart.

I do offer suggestions for phrasing or placement of dialogue, paragraphs, etc - but make it clear they are only suggestions. The writer is asking for my opinion, and I bear that in mind so if they choose not to take my advice, I don't get all huffy (well, grammar issues aside, that is :tongue).

My view of betas - if you want to dictate how someone should write a story, you shouldn't be a beta. If you want to help someone develop as a writer or help them look at their story objectively, then you should.
 

BrandiZ

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stick around

I want my beta-reader to be completely honest and let me know when things aren't working. I had one like that, and we managed to get through 70% of my MS, but then she fell off the face of the earth. So maybe my real requirement is someone who will stick with you through the whole thing!
 

Adobedragon

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It's not as wickedly fun for the beta, but I think this second style of criticism is more helpful for the average writer. That's been my approach as a reader, anyway, and no one's burst into tears yet.
For me, being nasty and snarky is easy. As noted above, it's wickedly fun.

But writing a critique that is honest and diplomatic not only benefits the recipient. (At least, I hope it benefits the recipient.) It also serves as a writing exercise. Digging down and providing constructive advise without lacerating the writer's feelings is hard work. And it makes me a better writer in the long run. It makes me more aware of my writing's flaws and helps me in revision.

As far as my approach to beta reading/critiquing, I generally focus on characterization and plot. I don't have the time to do heavy-duty, line-by-line edits.
 

whacko

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I think we just want the truth. With added helpings of how wonderful we are tacked on.

So your beta experience is only helpful if you can face up to the fact that you're nowhere near as good as you think you are.:D

Once you get over that hurdle, the beta experience is rather bloody worthwhile.

Regards

Whacko
 

Phrixos

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The underlying theme of all my work is and ever shall be,

"To make childhood more survivable—to redefine the word "abuse."

If any Beta reader finds that interesting and feels the itch to beta read for me, I look forward to receiving your private message. (If by some miracle you live in Ireland, so much the better.)

That said, from whom would you rather hear unwelcome remarks: a beta reader—or a reader? Give me an honest (and courageous!) beta read, any day.
 

Sass2379

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I'm currently looking for a beta, but in the meantime, I've started reviewing other people's work. I must say that the critiquing is actually helping me to see things wrong with my own work. Personally, I want an honest opinion. I want to know why my work sucks and how I can make it better. If there are strong areas of my work, I'd like to know how and why those areas are working so I can apply that to the weaker areas. I don't see any point in critiquing someone's work and only telling them "good" things or only telling them "bad" things.
 

rlayna

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*Rummages for 2 cents.*

While I understand that since we're here at AW, most of us write, and I know can't expect this 100%, but I want my pieces to be looked at though the eyes of a reader *first* then a writer. A reader will pick up the major grammar mistakes (spelling, etc.) and even if they don't know something doesn't seem 'right' about the piece, that there is something missing. As a writer, you'll be able to tell me what is missing and why it isn't clear.

Other than that, I am open to pretty much anything. Except an out right 'You suck!". Anything harsh and not mean, well you don't need to see me cry after I read it or any other reaction I have. (Don't worry about making me cry though. And who knows maybe it's tears of happiness.)

:)

I've only gotten a few comments back so far from pieces I've sent out and they've been 50/50 in their format of replying. Some have done it in a email, just stating their opinions and some have been in the actual document. While I realize it takes more time and not everyone is computer savvy, I do like feedback via the actual document, so I can see what is being said. It's not needed, just something I am able to use, so don't sweat (in my case) if it isn't done that way.

*drops coins into tips jar on counter*
 

LMILLER111

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I think there are some people who beta read things just to rip them apart.
 

Ari Meermans

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I think there are some people who beta read things just to rip them apart.

While I believe that's true because some people can let their jealousy have free rein, I also believe that those folks are in the minority. If you select your betas with care, you shouldn't run across too many with an agenda.

Even if you think your ms is being ripped apart, if you strive for objectivity, you might find at least one or two valid points in the crit. If so, consider that the twit did you a favor and move on.
 

bluntforcetrauma

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Having been a member here since 2008, I'm considering finding a beta reader for my newest work. Even though no one likes to think their work's imperfect, I know the reality is that honest critiquing is invaluable. Although receiving a flaming crit which seems to have been done by the DI in the movie Full Metal Jacket might sting a bit, I'm willing to take that chance if it'll help me improve my MS and my writing skills altogether.
 
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