Commercial-friendly MFA programs?

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Claudia Gray

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Though we have many threads discussing whether or not to get an MFA (a discussion I don't mean to revive here), I haven't seen one specifically listing which universities have MFA programs that are friendly to popular commercial fiction. Any names to list and personal experiences to share?

I only know of Seton Hill, National University and the University of Southern Maine. I am sure there are others you guys know --
 

Momento Mori

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In the UK, the MA Creative Writing programs at the University of Greenwich and City University are genre friendly (including fantasy and science fiction and they'll take YA and childrens fiction writers). Birkbeck College, London will take YA and childrens' fiction and I know someone on it who's writing a crime novel, but I didn't find a friendly reception to fantasy/SF (although they don't seem to mind magical realism).

MM
 

scheherazade

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Are you speaking specifically about hardcore genre stuff, or whether your classmates would be friendly to you workshopping stories that just happen to contain dragons or vampires or what-have-you? I know there has been more discussion about this on Poets & Writers Speakeasy (www.pw.org), but my sense is:

- If you aim to write children's fiction or very genre-oriented stuff where plot is a much higher priority than artful language, then you'd be better off doing a program specific to popular fiction like those listed above.

- If you are interested in writing artful language but you don't see why you can't use said language in a romance/sci-fi/fantasy/mystery, then you might also want to look at mainstream programs that are not against commercial fiction. I know Iowa has a reputation for being mainstream-friendly (I guess John Irving would be their definition of popular fiction, but I've heard that students there are not looked down upon for workshopping sci fi, horror, and fantasy stuff), but of course Iowa is also insanely difficult to get into. You might also want to see if there are writers who you admire who have done MFAs, and figure out where they studied. For example, Elizabeth Kostova (who recently sold her MFA thesis, the Dracula novel "The Historian" for $2 million and which is now available in mass market paperback - a sure sign of commercial appeal) studied at Michigan. Michael Chabon (whose works are more "popular" than many MFA grads, in the sense that he's plot-oriented and more concerned with telling a good story than impressing you with his style, and who writes stuff on the fringes of genre, about superheroes and werewolves and detectives of sorts) studied at UC Irvine.
 

blacbird

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The Iowa Writer's Workshop remains the academic standard in the U.S. And while it has produced a fair number of successful "literary" writers over its many decades of existence (John Irving being the biggest current example), the other two biggest names I can recall coming from there and still very active are Joe Haldeman (SF) and Tracy Kidder (nonfiction, and a Pulitzer winner).

If you can write good stuff, you'll find many programs receptive. Don't self-censor.

caw
 

JL_Benet

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If you can write good stuff, you'll find many programs receptive.
I researched all of the programs in America. I talked to the professors and students in all of the top programs. I actually found the opposite to be true. Most programs looked down on genre fiction. It was someone from Iowa that told me they could "cure" me of my genre writing. I went to U. of Michigan (where Elizabeth Kostova got her MFA) for my undergrad. I can tell you first-hand that it is not a friendly environment for genre fiction. If you've read Kostova's book, you'll see how she "got away with it." Many of my colleagues who are genre writers and have gotten their MFAs have commented on the anti-genre bias at their school.
 

Momento Mori

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As an update to my earlier post, in the UK I've been told that City University is now focusing on literary fiction in its MFA although it will look at crime and historical fiction with a literary bent and aren't looking at YA/children's. (I've been told this by a couple of people who applied but didn't get in, so bear that in mind).

MM
 

Tirjasdyn

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I researched all of the programs in America. I talked to the professors and students in all of the top programs. I actually found the opposite to be true. Most programs looked down on genre fiction. It was someone from Iowa that told me they could "cure" me of my genre writing. I went to U. of Michigan (where Elizabeth Kostova got her MFA) for my undergrad. I can tell you first-hand that it is not a friendly environment for genre fiction. If you've read Kostova's book, you'll see how she "got away with it." Many of my colleagues who are genre writers and have gotten their MFAs have commented on the anti-genre bias at their school.

This. I've had the same experience.

Having said that I have bullied my way through my college writing courses, and forced them to accept my genre. They did not like it and while they accepted it to a point, they were very quick to tell me I was sub-pare to non genre writing students.
 

timewaster

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As an update to my earlier post, in the UK I've been told that City University is now focusing on literary fiction in its MFA although it will look at crime and historical fiction with a literary bent and aren't looking at YA/children's. (I've been told this by a couple of people who applied but didn't get in, so bear that in mind).

Kingston ( Surrey UK ) and Manchester Met both still have children's lit as options and certainly Kingston are happy to support other genres: SF, crime and thrillers particularly as they employ tutors with that expertise.
 

Jamesaritchie

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There are genre friendly MFA programs, but I don't think they're the best choice, whatever the genre you want to write. Take an MFA program for what it is, which is a great place to study writing, and to spend time writing. Iowa can help a genre writer just as much as it can help a literary writer.

When you want taught how to write in a particular genre, the place to go is writing seminars and good workshops, not an MFA program.
 

shaldna

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I'll add that I'm doing an MA at Falmouth and they are very genre friendly.
 

JL_Benet

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When you want taught how to write in a particular genre, the place to go is writing seminars and good workshops, not an MFA program.
Good writing is good writing, and industry norms are industry norms (with minor tweaks in some of the genres). As a graduate of Seton Hill, I can tell you first hand that the focus overall is not on how to write in X genre, it's about good writing and the business of writing (as a whole). Only three of the classes are explicitly genre specific (although there are also genre residency modules and genre-specific critique groups). Many of the students write in many genres. My focus when I went was Horror, but I'm now writing Romance. I wouldn't be as good as I am in Romance if it wasn't for Seton Hill. Instead of putting the blinders on me, they opened my eyes to the various genres in a way that I hadn't experienced beforehand.
So, you are correct in your statement, but incorrect in assuming that that is the type of instruction that actually happens in an MFA program such as Seton Hill's.
As for how beneficial an anti-genre program is to a genre writer, ask Orson Scott Card about his experiences. I remember him addressing this exact topic when he was a visiting professor at Seton Hill.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Good writing is good writing, and industry norms are industry norms (with minor tweaks in some of the genres). As a graduate of Seton Hill, I can tell you first hand that the focus overall is not on how to write in X genre, it's about good writing and the business of writing (as a whole). Only three of the classes are explicitly genre specific (although there are also genre residency modules and genre-specific critique groups). Many of the students write in many genres. My focus when I went was Horror, but I'm now writing Romance. I wouldn't be as good as I am in Romance if it wasn't for Seton Hill. Instead of putting the blinders on me, they opened my eyes to the various genres in a way that I hadn't experienced beforehand.
So, you are correct in your statement, but incorrect in assuming that that is the type of instruction that actually happens in an MFA program such as Seton Hill's.
As for how beneficial an anti-genre program is to a genre writer, ask Orson Scott Card about his experiences. I remember him addressing this exact topic when he was a visiting professor at Seton Hill.

Well, Orson Scott Card impresses me greatly as a writer, but I'm not sure I trust his opinion on this matter. My memory may be faulty, but has he actually been through an MFA program? I don't think he has.

Anyway, I do think good writing is good writing, and I think the top MFA programs can teach anyone a great deal about how to write well. I think pretty much any college creative writing course that has good professors can teach any writer much more than the writer is likely to learn on his own, and Seton Hall seems to be wonderful.

Even long before I could even think about an MFA, I learned more about writing in college in six months than I would have thought possible. I was already a selling writer, and writing paid my way through college, but I still learned more in six months at college than I had in five years on my own.

But I also believe each genre has its own needs, its own tropes, and these can best be learned from top pro writers in whichever genre it is you want to write. Good writing is good writing, but good writing alone seldom gets a writer anywhere. Front to back, any top MFA program is filled with writers who write very, very well. One story after another is written beautifully, but even many of best writers in MFA programs never manage to turn that great writing into novels that sell.

I'm all for MFA programs, and all for any type of college creative writing class. Anyone who wants to be a writer really should do whatever it takes to go to college, and take as many classes and programs as possible.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I firmly believe creative writing classes and MFA programs matter, and help any writer who has the talent to take advantage of them, but it isn't good writing that sells novels, it's story, character, and the demands of a given genre.

Writing that would give an MFA professor a severe headache frequently becomes a bestselling novel because the writer understands story, character, the demands of a given genre, and knows what general readers actually want.

Dan Brown and Stephanie Meyer are good examples of what I mean. I'm not sure either could provide writing samples that would get them into a good program, or keep them there if they got in, but I'd rather talk to either about story and character, about the demands of their respective genres, and about what readers actually want, than any MFA professor I've ever met.

This is my only complaint about such programs. All I've been around put so much emphasis on writing that the kind of story and character most readers want never happens.

MFA programs? Absolutely wonderful, and extremely helpful, but few of them give writers hands on experience with bestselling genre writers, at least to the same degree that good seminars and workshops provide, and even someone with a MFA should still attend these seminars and workshops, if they want to be successful in a given genre.
 

CrastersBabies

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(UCR) Riverside. I've heard some great things about it. Two pals are now in this program. They cater to any kind of writing (literary, commercial, genre-specific). It's low-res, so it means no GTAs and you have to find your own internships if you want to go that route.

One pal started in a traditional MFA program (where she learned craft and literature) and once she transferred over to UCR, she said it was a completely different world. She could pursue her genre loves (and her commercial voice). She said they also give seminars and workshops on how to get an agent, how to write query letters, how to negotiate contracts, give a pitch at a pitch-slam etc.. I've never found these types of resources in traditional MFA programs.

*Note: lots of low-res/non-traditional programs are (from what I hear) similar to UCR.

Their goal is to work on novels (not short stories). At the end of the program, they have a huge convention where they invite publishers and agents. A good percentage of students procure agents then and there. Many get deals. Their goal is to get people published and why not? It gives more cred. to the university itself.

They cycle in authors who are known in their genre for the 2-week workshops.

Their goal is to produce working, published writers, not make students starve for their pushcarts and flounder around in adjunct hell for 17 years.

And, above everything else, they help you improve as a writer.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to research your options here. You're being smart about it.

There still seems to be that trade off, though. Traditional means GTAs and getting experience teaching. Low-res (and more commercially-based programs), you're on your own. Get yourself some loans, but you have a better chance of coming out with a finished manuscript, access to agents/publishers, more networking potential and a sense of how the business actually works.

I don't knock traditional programs. I graduated from one. Loved it. Got a LOT out of it, but I didn't go into that program wanting to learn about the publishing side. I wanted teaching experience (which I got).

Good luck! I would do extensive research, though. Learn who is teaching the fiction workshops. Look at their publication histories. Are they commercial? Literary? Find the main MFA site (on their website or on facebook) and see who's publishing.

I will say this, I came from a traditional program and I write commercial fiction now. Another MFA "comrade" just sold a zombie book to Random House. Another guy (a few years ahead of me) writes Spy novels. We've all found our way despite not having those extra classes/seminars/workshops. We just learn it on our own.

Boards like this help immensely.

Immensely.

I cannot stress that enough.

If you do the traditional route, just keep in mind that you'll get lots of lectures about how genre/commercial fiction sucks. You'll have to endure the snobs beating down on you.

Me? I just ignored that part and found the few people who were also closet genre writers and we formed our own writing group outside of the university. 3 years strong and still going.

Please feel free to PM me if you want to talk more in depth. I (personally) always get excited when I hear about people going into an MFA program. I had a blast in mine and met some amazing people. It changed my writing and my life, for the better.
 
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JL_Benet

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Well, Orson Scott Card impresses me greatly as a writer, but I'm not sure I trust his opinion on this matter. My memory may be faulty, but has he actually been through an MFA program? I don't think he has.
He started, but never finished. He got sick and tired of the other students and the professors who couldn't get past their literary bias. And this was after Ender's Game had been published. He commented after the residency where he was a guest professor that if his program had been like Seton Hill's, he would probably have finished.

p.s. It is Seton Hill, not Seton Hall. They're two different universities. The similar names do cause some confusion.
 
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blacbird

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MFA programs depend hugely on the writers doing the instruction. I was incredibly lucky at Iowa. I had John Irving and Raymond Carver and John Cheever and Anthony Burgess, all very open-minded people. Elsewhere, or at another time, your mileage might vary.

caw
 

Sevvy

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MFA programs depend hugely on the writers doing the instruction. I was incredibly lucky at Iowa. I had John Irving and Raymond Carver and John Cheever and Anthony Burgess, all very open-minded people. Elsewhere, or at another time, your mileage might vary.

caw

Agreed. I found professors who were open to genre at Vermont College of Fine Arts, where I went, and had a pretty good time there despite being one of the few dedicated genre writers. Both faculty and other students were open to reading and critiquing my stuff, even if it wasn't really their thing. A story is a story, after all.

I chose my school not because I thought they'd be okay with genre (though that was a big reason) but because I got a good vibe from the place and the faculty I spoke to. I think that's more important than whether the school is dedicated to genre work or not.

Also just realized how old that OP is. ^_^
 
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