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Algonkian Writer Conferences / WebDelSol

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Stacia, While I appreciate your market search, you have completely twisted my words and I feel as if you used them against me and those at Algonkian. It is true what they say about needing thick skin in this industry but I never thought I would need it on a writer's forum.

Not crazy. Perhaps new to the business, but not crazy, no. You're perfectly free to attend. You seem to enjoy conferences and such, and if you do, I'm sure this is a great one for that; attendees have spoken highly of the bonding and fun, and hey, if that's why you're attending, I say go for it! And I hope you have a wonderful time.
Yes, I am new to the business of writing and I do enjoy going to writers' conferences, but the fun I spoke of was twisted. While I owe you no explanation, I feel I must tell you that I have a MILD case of agoraphobia, in which I rarely leave my house without my husband. Whenever I do, my family and friends cheer me on! I don't go to the conferences for the reception parties, mixers, or open mics. I go to the classes, eat supper, and then lock myself in my hotel room for the night. The fun I speak of is in learning. I love the information dump I get at these conferences because they only help me to improve my writing. That is why I leave my house and go with or without my husband. Of the three I've gone to, he's gone to two of them. Not the conference itself, but with me nonetheless.

But if you're going because you think they have some secret tricks to getting published...again, you're free to go, but I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. There is no secret tip or trick to being published; there are no shortcuts in this business. It takes time and it takes hard work, and no matter how much money you spend or how many conferences you attend or how many agents you get to chat with for ten minutes, it's still going to require the exact same amount of time and hard work.
They don't claim to have any *secret* that will get me published any sooner than anyone else. I agree, writing requires a diligent heart and lots of hard work pushing out pages that we hope will attract an agent who will then attract an editor and publisher.
In fact, if you were to look at their website there is a paragraph that says:
What does the market really want? Reality check time. 50,000 or more in this country are struggling to write first novels, thousands of manuscripts flooding agent offices, but only a few hundred at most will ever be published by a major house. Why? ... This unique writer conference was developed by the editors and authors at Algonkian Writer Conferences to provide you, the aspiring author, with not only network connections, but comprehensive, hands-on experience utilizing the craft skills, insider advice, and hard-to-swallow facts you must possess before you can even hope to get a first novel successfully published in this tougher-than-ever market. This is experience and info you will not receive at any other conference, and certainly, not from any Craft and Tips 101 writer magazine.
It is a "unique" writers conference that offers insider advice, not a secret handshake as James has jokingly (I hope) wrote about. I may be new to the business of writing, but even I know I have to do the work. No one is going to write a book for me and no one is going to push my book forward if it doesn't have what it takes to get published the traditional way in this economy.

As stated above from their own website, it is their method and presentation that makes them unique, not secret, not exclusive, not special. They provide their attendees with a syllabus, study guide, a pre-test that helps them know where to help each writer the most, and a plan of action for executing the tips learned once leaving the conference that you usually don't find with other writers conferences. Of the three I've attended, this is true. I've sent in 10-20 pages that are critiqued in a workshop setting, by other newby writers like myself. At the SFWP, it will be looked over by professionals.

Everyone who writes for the goal of being published, wants to be published. Including myself. I don't attend the conferences for the fun, but with the hope of getting published. If I have the privilege of attracting an agent because of my book premise, then that is an added bonus to the writers conference. I attend these conferences for my own selfish reasons-MY book and any tips I can learn along the way to know what I can do to make it better, more salable, and eventually published are reasons good enough for me.

I sincerely apologize to Michael Neff and anyone else associated with the Algonkian conferences for having my words twisted against you. That was never my intent.

I am asking for a moderator to shut this thread down, that I started, and somehow got combined into this previous war zone. I simply wanted to know if anyone else had attended one of these conferences, the SFWP particularly, and if anyone was planning to attend this years conference in July. I've received my answer to the latter, no.

When I signed up for this writer's forum, my first, I looked forward to speaking with and learning from other writer's experiences. This was not what I feel is happening here. Some of you seem to be nothing more than a lynch mob and have somehow used this forum as a platform to shout out your opinions from something you've admittedly never attended. So here's my suggestion-go to one of these conferences. At least then you'll be able to speak from personal experiences and not from the pulpit.

The welcome you've shown me and others who have attended one of these conferences is evidence enough for me to know that this is not a forum I want to be a part of, whether this thread gets shut down or not.

Thanks,
Robin
 

mscelina

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*sigh*

Let's take a moment for some perspective here.

The AW site is dedicated to providing accurate information to aspiring authors everywhere. Our members, especially the ones who frequent the B&BC section, give freely of their time and experience to help other authors. As result, we ask tough questions of agents, publishers, conferences, editing services, promotional sites--any entity or individual that purports to be working for the benefit of the author, not because of some vendetta but because the road to publication is paved with pitfalls and scams. The questions and concerns brought up in this thread aren't the result of some kind of lynch mob, but the result of AW's purpose. No one here has said Algonkian is a scam. What's been questioned is the efficacy of the conference, i.e.--if the conference can produce what it claims on its websites and literature.

I've attended several conferences and conventions, as have the majority of the people who spoke out on this thread. In fact, several of them teach at highly respected conferences, or run panels. The cumulative experience of the authors and publishing industry insiders who have commented on this thread is impressive. They spoke out of concern for you, Robin, and a genuine interest in helping you to determine what would be the best use for your money and efforts as you work on your writing career. It may be that Algonkian would be a positive and beneficial experience for you and other writers. But, the fact remains that what this conference purports to do doesn't quite match up with the reality of pitching a project.

Before I was agented, I chose my conference, convention and workshop choices very carefully. I needed to make certain that the money I invested in these trips would pay off in the long run. I deliberately chose conferences where I could actually pitch to editors and agents--and at those conferences were workshops and panels, run by agents or editors, on how to create a successful pitch. I was able to take the information from those workshops, which were conducted by people I wanted to pitch, and use it instantly at that conference. Those pitch sessions culminated with an offer of representation--because I took advantage of the information at the workshop and tailored my pitch presentation to the very people who'd run the workshop in the first place.

Now, if Algonkian did the same thing, the concerns expressed here might not exist at all. But that's not what they offer. And unless you're made of money (and I'm not) why spend your conference budget going to a place to learn how to pitch when there is no one at the conference to pitch to?

As best I can tell, the conversation turned when people from Algonkian turned up here and went on the offensive, which to me, at least, is a big red flag. It's a pity things went the way they did; as a result of that defensiveness, Algonkian managed to offend a huge chunk of the writing community. I submit that any conference where someone involved dismisses genre writers as being somehow inferior to other writers is probably not the best choice for learning how to pitch. A good workshop isn't going to condescend to genre writers, particularly since most agents are looking for precisely that--good writers in specific genres.

Moderators here don't shut down threads that serve a purpose to the writing community just because the original poster doesn't like the direction the conversation has taken. That's not how it works. And I think you've vastly mistaken the intentions of the writers and publishing industry insiders who posted here in good faith when they responded to your initial question. These people? They were trying to help you, as they've helped thousands of other writers at every stage of their career--including me.

In the end, a successful pitch is one for a viable publishing project, backed up by good writing and an outstanding story. There you go. That's the secret to a successful pitch. No bells and whistles, no trumpets and fanfares. And the way that pitch works for you? Well, that's when you're at a conference where there are actually people to pitch to. While Algonkian may be a lot of fun and may provide some helpful information, in the end an investment in Algonkian necessitates an investment in a second conference at the very least--one where editors and agents are in attendance. So any author who considers Algonkian should be made aware of that second expense at the onset and now, as a result of this thread, they are. They are also, unfortunately, aware of how some of the individuals who run or teach at this conference behave, what they think of huge segments of the writing community, and their inability to either handle criticism or respond to reasonable questions about their purpose and the flaws inherent in their program.

I hope that you take a moment to reconsider your involvement in AW, Robin. There's a great deal of valuable information to be gleaned from this site and the people who give freely of their time and experience to help others as they start out on the path to publication. But if you don't, I hope you'll at least understand that everyone who posted in this thread did so from a desire to address your question and to offer you their insights on conferences, pitching and the publishing industry. That's not the behavior of a lynch mob.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Robin, I'm very sorry you aren't having a good time. You've walked all-unknowing into the middle of a long-running discussion. BR&BC is one of the rougher neighborhoods in this forum; others might be more congenial. I'd like to personally invite you to my own thread on How To Write (the link is to the Cliffs Notes version; the active thread is here), which I've been hosting for the better part of a decade. You can go there and read without ever leaving your house, or ever posting. There are lots of lurkers; one more won't hurt.

I trust that you'll have a good time at Algonkian, and that you'll learn many useful things. It'll be almost impossible not to.

I'm certain that you're a good person. I'm sure that Francisbruno. Bobdenny, Hapi, Stacia, Lisa, and everyone else who's participated in this thread are good people. I even hope that I'm a good person. Let this be a lesson for your writing: The greatest conflicts are not between good and evil, they're between good and good.

I do have my own disagreements with the whole Algonkian/WebDelSol thing, mostly over how they choose to advertise. Statements like, "This is experience and info you will not receive at any other conference, and certainly, not from any Craft and Tips 101 writer magazine," make me raise my eyebrow. But let that pass, the advertising is not the conference.

This is apart from my opinions about what is and is not good writing (or "serious" writing, or "literary" writing); that's part of another discussion and has been rather a distraction here.

Please be of good cheer and keep writing. That's the important thing. Keep writing.
 
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Diane Holmes

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Good Message

I second James' "good cheer and keep writing" note.

Writing is a hard profession if for no other reason than we must constantly keep encouraging ourselves, day after day, year after year. We must come up with our own professional development plans. And we must find like-minded writers to critique with. Oh, yeah, and learn to write GREAT stories. Yeah, that, too. :) I'm glad you're here.

James' thanks for the links!
 

francisbruno

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Some kind of morbid curiosity makes me come back to watch this thread :)

I have reached my 50 posts so I am eagerly trying to figure out how to post my first chapter for critique. I am looking at some of the conferences that James posted the other day and I noticed that James teaches at Viable Paradise. Perhaps I'll get to meet you in person someday if I am accepted.

The one comment I wanted to make is to ROF that the conference should stand on its own and you should not be apologizing or asking for the thread to be shut down because of controversy. Both sides have been represented for better or for worse in sometimes pleasant, sometimes heated ways. People need to make up their own mind.

I do have one other comment I wanted to make, the conferences that James had mentioned seem to have a high barrier to entry compared to Algonkian. Statistically you would expect that if VP takes the top 5% of writers (making up my own stats for arguments sake) then their rate of successful publications would be 20x that of the norm.

Again, I had a "pro" experience. YMMV. At that point in time almost a year ago, I wasn't ready for VP or any of the others. Now I think I'm close. Of course after my chapter 1 is critiqued, I might be skulking in the corner for a week, but I hope it will go better than that :)

Signing off again. twenty paces and resume firing!
 

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Robin, I hope you enjoy the conference in San Francisco, and that you find it beneficial.

I too have issues about managing my energies relating to my profession--my own issues are chronic illness and anxiety, not agoraphobia, but like you I have to be very careful with what I invest my precious time and energy in, so I do a ton of research about every professional opportunity.

Therefore, please understand that my comments below are not intended to dissuade you from enjoying this conference and getting all that you can out of the experience, but simply to set the record straight about a couple of matters.

As stated above from their own website, it is their method and presentation that makes them unique, not secret, not exclusive, not special.

The thing is that the method and presentation you describe aren't actually unique.

They provide their attendees with a syllabus, study guide, a pre-test that helps them know where to help each writer the most, and a plan of action for executing the tips learned once leaving the conference that you usually don't find with other writers conferences. Of the three I've attended, this is true. I've sent in 10-20 pages that are critiqued in a workshop setting, by other newby writers like myself. At the SFWP, it will be looked over by professionals.
This is a great approach, and I hope you find it very rewarding. It's not unique by any means, though--I can think of many conferences that use this approach, and I've attended two or three myself, including the annual Imagination conference at Cleveland State University and the Sewanee Writer's Conference.

At those conferences, I had the opportunity to learn from people who had already achieved the goals I had set for myself--multiple publication with Big Six publishers, national best-seller lists, books on the reading lists of major colleges and universities. There are many other conferences that offer the same.

There are a lot of great conference opportunities out there, and I encourage everyone to choose wisely among them for the ones that are best suited to help them meet their goals.
 

Stacia Kane

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Stacia, While I appreciate your market search, you have completely twisted my words and I feel as if you used them against me and those at Algonkian. It is true what they say about needing thick skin in this industry but I never thought I would need it on a writer's forum.

Um...wow. How did I twist your words and use them against you? I answered a few of your comments, that's all; a total of four sentences. I wasn't being rude or nasty with you. I wasn't insulting you.

I've just gone back and re-read my post, and I can honestly not see how you thought it was insulting to you in any way. The one insulting comment was one made by you--saying people might think you're crazy. I said no, we wouldn't think that, and said you seem to enjoy conferences--I based that on your repeatedly mentioning you've attended a few, so forgive me for assuming that was because you enjoyed the experience--and that if you enjoy conferences you should go, and I hope you have a wonderful time.

So how exactly is that twisting your words to use against you?



Yes, I am new to the business of writing and I do enjoy going to writers' conferences, but the fun I spoke of was twisted.

How? By me saying if you find conferences fun that's great, and I hope you enjoy this one?



While I owe you no explanation, I feel I must tell you that I have a MILD case of agoraphobia, in which I rarely leave my house without my husband. Whenever I do, my family and friends cheer me on! I don't go to the conferences for the reception parties, mixers, or open mics. I go to the classes, eat supper, and then lock myself in my hotel room for the night. The fun I speak of is in learning. I love the information dump I get at these conferences because they only help me to improve my writing. That is why I leave my house and go with or without my husband. Of the three I've gone to, he's gone to two of them. Not the conference itself, but with me nonetheless.


And again, why is that any different from someone who goes to hang out with other writers? You go because they're fun. No one is judging you for that. I was wishing you well. (And you're not the only one who has a hard time leaving your house.)


They don't claim to have any *secret* that will get me published any sooner than anyone else.


Unfortunately, yes, they do. That wasn't me relying on your statement. It was going by comments they have made repeatedly, both on their website(s) and on the numerous sock-puppet blogs they've set up purporting to be just aspiring writers talking about how great those Algonkian conferences are and how the organizers really have an in and can get you published.


I agree, writing requires a diligent heart and lots of hard work pushing out pages that we hope will attract an agent who will then attract an editor and publisher.
In fact, if you were to look at their website there is a paragraph that says:

...provide you, the aspiring author, with not only network connections, but comprehensive, hands-on experience utilizing the craft skills, insider advice, and hard-to-swallow facts you must possess before you can even hope to get a first novel successfully published in this tougher-than-ever market. This is experience and info you will not receive at any other conference, and certainly, not from any Craft and Tips 101 writer magazine.

It is a "unique" writers conference that offers insider advice, not a secret handshake as James has jokingly (I hope) wrote about. I may be new to the business of writing, but even I know I have to do the work. No one is going to write a book for me and no one is going to push my book forward if it doesn't have what it takes to get published the traditional way in this economy.


ROF, this thread isn't about you. No one here is actually discussing you personally. It is about the Algonkian workshops, and I'm terribly sorry, but the excerpt you quoted does indeed say "We can give you the insider info, advice, and craft skills you NEED to get published, and you can't get it anywhere else."

They say that repeatedly on their website. They imply it everywhere else. It isn't true.


As stated above from their own website, it is their method and presentation that makes them unique, not secret, not exclusive, not special.

No, sorry, that's not what they claim.



Everyone who writes for the goal of being published, wants to be published. Including myself. I don't attend the conferences for the fun, but with the hope of getting published. If I have the privilege of attracting an agent because of my book premise, then that is an added bonus to the writers conference. I attend these conferences for my own selfish reasons-MY book and any tips I can learn along the way to know what I can do to make it better, more salable, and eventually published are reasons good enough for me.


I really don't understand why me saying conferences are fun, and I hope you have some, is taken as such an insult. When I go to conferences it's just because they're fun; almost everyone I know goes just because they're fun. Sure, I spend a lot of time hiding in my hotel room, too, but when I'm not hiding I'm enjoying myself. That's worth the price for me.

I know you hope to get published. That is why, actually, I felt that as someone who actually is published--multiple times, with several different NY houses and other publishers around the world--it was my responsibility, and a nice thing to do, to inform you that you can get those same tips anywhere else for free, and that the people running that conference do not have any special insider knowledge, so you could save your money.

You can have pros look over your work and offer tips here too, in the Share Your Work forum, once you have 50 posts. Once again, for free.

You're welcome to spend the money and go to the conference, of course. And I hope the experience is everything you hope it will be. I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were actually getting, as opposed to what the Algonkian people tell you you'll get, and I wanted to contribute a post to the thread which addresses the purpose of the forum, which is to analyze and discuss the claims of various publishers/agents/workshops/etc.


I sincerely apologize to Michael Neff and anyone else associated with the Algonkian conferences for having my words twisted against you. That was never my intent.

And again. I don't mean to be rude here, but really, where exactly did I twist your words? My total post consisted of four sentences quoted from you, all of which I took at face value.


I am asking for a moderator to shut this thread down, that I started, and somehow got combined into this previous war zone. I simply wanted to know if anyone else had attended one of these conferences, the SFWP particularly, and if anyone was planning to attend this years conference in July. I've received my answer to the latter, no.

You posted your question in the BR&BC, which means people are going to check the background of the conference and organizers, and ask questions. In fact, if you'll notice, your question was merged into an existing thread about them.

If you're simply looking for fellow attendees, I suggest you post in the Roundtable forum, or one dedicated to your genre. Those forums are not for delving into the backgrounds and analyzing the claims of their subjects.

Perhaps that misunderstanding is why you're unhappy? This thread really isn't about you, and it's not aimed at telling you why you're wrong to go to this conference (neither was my post).


When I signed up for this writer's forum, my first, I looked forward to speaking with and learning from other writer's experiences. This was not what I feel is happening here. Some of you seem to be nothing more than a lynch mob and have somehow used this forum as a platform to shout out your opinions from something you've admittedly never attended. So here's my suggestion-go to one of these conferences. At least then you'll be able to speak from personal experiences and not from the pulpit.


Okay. Sorry, but this is where I start to get a bit insulted myself. You say you look forward to learning from the experiences of other writers, but when we offer you the wisdom of that experience you get angry and upset.

I don't need to spend a lot of money to attend a conference to learn how to get commercially published run by someone who is not himself commercially published, and whose track record of getting people commercially published is no more impressive than that of any random person off the street, to know it's probably not worth the money if my goal is to be commercially published.

I don't have to smoke crack to know smoking crack is a bad idea, do I? Can I advise people against attempting suicide without having done so myself? Of course the conferences are a very different situation, yes, but the idea that one cannot offer advice or thoughts without having first experienced something is, I'm sorry, rather...well, it's just not a good one.

If you think the advice and knowledge of the Algonkian people is better than that of the publishing professionals who've offered our thoughts here, that's perfectly fine. But I got published multiple times by not paying the Algonkian people, and so did everyone else here. So I'm going to advise you on what worked for me, and what I've learned in the past six years or so.

"Learning from other people's experiences" doesn't just mean "having what you want to do confirmed as a good idea." It means sometimes being told that what you're doing is a bad idea, or at least unnecessary. Sorry, but again, that is the truth. You say you wanted to learn from experienced authors, but when we offer you our advice and help you slap us and tell us we're twisting your words around and being nasty, simply because we showed you that there was no special benefit to something but sincerely wished you a good time anyway.



The welcome you've shown me and others who have attended one of these conferences is evidence enough for me to know that this is not a forum I want to be a part of, whether this thread gets shut down or not.

Thanks,
Robin


And I'm very sorry you feel that way. As Uncle Jim said, this is the most contentious forum here. There are plenty of others for you to explore. And I don't believe we've been rude or unwelcoming to anyone here; I believe we have in fact taken quite a bit of rudeness from them.

Once again, I sincerely wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide to do.
 

HapiSofi

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(On a more personal note: I've made my living by writing for more than twenty years and I'm still unclear on what's meant by "high concept." Isn't that film making again? "It's Romeo and Juliet -- with garden gnomes!" Why would a novelist want or need that?)
Remember a while back when various people who weren't pros of any sort got hold of the word "privishing" and were all excited about it? (As I said at the time, "privishing" is a word used by people who learned everything they know about publishing from Wikipedia.) "High concept" is a bit like that. It gets thrown around a lot by people who like it because it makes them feel knowledgeable.

However, it's not quite the same, because I've heard it used by professionals who work in the talkies. That's a cooperative art form that takes a lot of organization, so I gather (not my industry!) they sometimes need very short capsule summaries. (Standard joke version: "She's a chimp, he's the Pope, they fight crime.")

It's different when you write books. The closest thing to "high concept" that unpublished writers have to deal with are the book descriptions in their query letters.

That requirement is no reflection on the books themselves. Consider: "Chewsday is a funny send-up of fashionably sexy late-60s paperback novels, with a choose-your-own ending." Or: "The Perfect Storm is a riveting nonfiction account of boats and their crews caught up in the terrible Halloween Storm of 2003." Or: "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is the richly detailed story of a girl growing up in the poor but lively tenements of Williamsburg in the Teens and Twenties." Descriptions are high concept. Books are what they are.

You can even do it with the classics:
Melanchony Prince of Denmark comes home from school to find Dad dead, Mom married to uncle. Trouble ensues.

An old gentleman obsessed with tales of chivalry leaves his quiet life to become the knight-errant of romance in an all-too-real world.

The original realpolitik advice book on how to stay in power -- and look like one of the good guys while you do it.

A journey through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven, now in an attractive
terza rima edition.
(Mmmm. I seem to have strayed out of high concept and into cover copy sell lines. No matter; they're close relatives.)

Once in a while a wonderful book gets written that can't adequately be described in brief because there's nothing else quite like it, such as Anything Can Happen, or I Capture the Castle, or Bridge of Birds. However, in most cases where a book can't be described, it's because it doesn't contain enough decisive, sequentially consequential events (i.e., a storyline), and its components or episodes are insufficiently compelling on their own; and even then, it's only a problem for writers who want their books to be read by people who aren't related to them.
 
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francisbruno

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Just wanted to jump in a final time (I hope!). A question was asked a couple of pages back regarding who the editors I pitched to were. I was ignoring it, but it seems relevant to the post I'm quoting. This is just the NYC Pitch and Shop, At the Virginia conference, there was an agent, but I am at a loss as to his name right now. No idea what happens in SF or any other ones:

Hilary Teeman (St. Martins): this was an open forum. We heard the pitches and responses of everyone that had worked on them the day before, or before the conference. There was also an open Q&A where she answered peoples general questions.

Thomas Colgan (Penguin): He didn't provide much feedback, but asked prompting questions giving me things to think about.

A small publisher (akashic books): Didn't express much interest in my novel.

Alexis Washam (Penguin): She provided the most feedback, about 15-20 minutes of going through my story and relating recent sales that were applicable. (She requested the first 3 chapters).

and at those conferences were workshops and panels, run by agents or editors, on how to create a successful pitch. I was able to take the information from those workshops, which were conducted by people I wanted to pitch, and use it instantly at that conference. Those pitch sessions culminated with an offer of representation--because I took advantage of the information at the workshop and tailored my pitch presentation to the very people who'd run the workshop in the first place.

Now, if Algonkian did the same thing, the concerns expressed here might not exist at all. But that's not what they offer. And unless you're made of money (and I'm not) why spend your conference budget going to a place to learn how to pitch when there is no one at the conference to pitch to?

Somewhere in the thread, way back, I think it was mentioned that the conference was somehow the gatekeeper to submitting your manuscript. All of us got an email with all the editors contacts and who wanted to see what. The caveat was, do not email the editors that didn't want to see your project.

Anyways, I'm trying to not be active, but I am hanging around if anyone has any questions. Right now I'm more interested in the comments on chapter 1 of my novel. If anyone is interested, it is posted in the YA section of SYW.

That dead horse should by up and dancing by now....
 

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a little over the top.

Man, some of you guys are pretty nutty. So I feel as if I am talking to peers, as I am rather odd myself. I attended the sf conference last year. I didn't agree with some of the feedback I received. Hello! If I did agree with everything anyone told me, I would never make it in any business, let alone the publishing industry. As has been stated, you take what you can and move on. In my experience all the knowledge you need is not contained in one place, there are pockets of it that you come across. It's almost like a scavenger hunt.

Did I think it was worth it? Very much so. I was only half-way through my book. It was inexpensive and 15 minutes from my house (although it would have been worth it if I had to travel). It inspired me to do things that I believe added to my arsenal of data and helped me get an agent. I ended up winning two different high-profile pitch contests 8 months after attending.

It doesn't teach you how to write, which is clearly stated on the site, but it does give you simulated circumstances and some valuable feedback from actual, and very legitimate, professionals. Absolutely worth the price of admission. As a bonus, Michael and the others are incredibly entertaining and informative. Which only heightens the experience. I hope the feedback and buzz, negative or not, only helps bring more attention to Algonkian. Ultimately scrutiny is good, but there's a line that can be crossed (especially as it is a crooked line) and some of the posts here seem to veering back and forth. Which is probably adds more confusion that clarity to anyone looking for a serious, objective opinion from both sides of the fence.

BTW, someone in an earlier post recommended against finding a freelance editor pre-agent submission. I think that is bad advice. If you are serious, you'll make the investment. Learning how to "self-edit" as the commenter suggested is necessary, but only as a pre-cursor to having a non-self-editor (ha) help you afterward.

Thanks.
 

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Francis Bruno, good on you. If there really were a secret handshake, I'd show it to you right now.
 

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Hi All, It seems I have made a complete mess of things once again. Unfortunately posts are like emails and sometimes I read something that isn't there. Stacia, I believed you were saying I was only going to the conferences/workshops for the "parties." I assumed that's what you meant when you said I was going for the fun and for that I'm sorry. Please forgive my assumption.

Yes, I should have posted my question in a different forum section since I was looking for anyone who's attended or is planning to attend this summer. As a newby, please allow me this one mistake! LOL! (That's me laughing!LOL!) I didn't know where to post my question, but now I will.

I do think you guys do a great service for other writers and spend your free time helping us. For that I am grateful. I will check out Uncle Jim's page and other places on this forum as I believe I can still benefit from your collective experiences in the world of writing. But I think I'll stay away from this one for now! LOL! (Again, I'm laughing.) I am a really easy person to get along with and I thank those of you who've welcomed me to continue here.

Again Stacia in particular, I am sorry that I twisted YOUR words about me.

Thanks,
Robin
 

Stacia Kane

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Hi All, It seems I have made a complete mess of things once again. Unfortunately posts are like emails and sometimes I read something that isn't there. Stacia, I believed you were saying I was only going to the conferences/workshops for the "parties." I assumed that's what you meant when you said I was going for the fun and for that I'm sorry. Please forgive my assumption.

Yes, I should have posted my question in a different forum section since I was looking for anyone who's attended or is planning to attend this summer. As a newby, please allow me this one mistake! LOL! (That's me laughing!LOL!) I didn't know where to post my question, but now I will.

I do think you guys do a great service for other writers and spend your free time helping us. For that I am grateful. I will check out Uncle Jim's page and other places on this forum as I believe I can still benefit from your collective experiences in the world of writing. But I think I'll stay away from this one for now! LOL! (Again, I'm laughing.) I am a really easy person to get along with and I thank those of you who've welcomed me to continue here.

Again Stacia in particular, I am sorry that I twisted YOUR words about me.

Thanks,
Robin


No worries, Robin. It's often difficult to read posts on a forum, and this is a big place; it can be confusing. Even for those of us who've been here for years. :) For my part, I truly am sorry that you felt attacked or hurt. It was genuinely not my intention at all.

I look forward to seeing you around the forums, and please feel free to contact me anytime if there's ever anything I can do to help you.
 

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BTW, someone in an earlier post recommended against finding a freelance editor pre-agent submission. I think that is bad advice.

And I think that that is bad advice.

Hiring a freelance editor pre-agent-submission is a waste of time and money. I absolutely recommend against it.

The word for edited slush is "slush." And the words in a cover letter, "This work has been professionally edited," is guaranteed to make any agent's or editor's heart sink.
 

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BTW, someone in an earlier post recommended against finding a freelance editor pre-agent submission. I think that is bad advice. If you are serious, you'll make the investment.

I am a freelance editor myself, so please understand that I am giving this advice against my own self-interest:

People who want to make publishing their writing a career (maybe not their main career, but something they want to do regularly on an ongoing basis) should learn to edit their own work. It is a key part of being a writer.

People who want to publish a book or two as an adjunct to a different career (a chef who wants to write a cookbook; a doctor who wants to write a book for the mass market about new treatments for a disease; a firefighter who wants to write a memoir of fighting an historic fire) can be helped tremendously by working with a freelance editor.

Part of being a writer is being your own first editor. Not everyone who wants to publish a book wants to be "a writer," which is what keeps my lights on and my mortgage paid. But if you want to be a writer, you need to learn to edit yourself.
 

HapiSofi

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What does the market really want? Reality check time. 50,000 or more in this country are struggling to write first novels, thousands of manuscripts flooding agent offices, but only a few hundred at most will ever be published by a major house. Why? ... This unique writer conference was developed by the editors and authors at Algonkian Writer Conferences to provide you, the aspiring author, with not only network connections, but comprehensive, hands-on experience utilizing the craft skills, insider advice, and hard-to-swallow facts you must possess before you can even hope to get a first novel successfully published in this tougher-than-ever market. This is experience and info you will not receive at any other conference, and certainly, not from any Craft and Tips 101 writer magazine.
ROF/Robin, the trouble with that promo copy is that it's simply not true.
What does the market really want? Reality check time. 50,000 or more in this country are struggling to write first novels, thousands of manuscripts flooding agent offices, but only a few hundred at most will ever be published by a major house.
Factually true, but completely irrelevant. If you can write a book that people want to buy and read, your odds of getting published are quite good. If you can't, no clever scheme or insider secrets are going to fix that. This truth is completely unaffected by how many other unpublished books there are in the slushpile.

Since you've ignored my observation that in real life, editors and agents aren't big on face-to-face pitches, I'm going to assume that when you talk about "refining your pitch," you mean written versions as well as live performances.

Okay. Let's say you come up with the Best Pitch Evar: short, punchy, a real killer. You put it into letter format, tuck it into a manila envelope along with a synopsis and the first three chapters of your novel, and send it to a publishing house. What happens when it arrives? There's a greater-than-trivial chance that it will be tucked behind your submission and sit there unread until after the reader has looked at your sample chapters. If they like those, it will be worth their while to read what you have to say about them.

Notice how I keep saying it's the writing that matters? That's because the book-buying readers don't give a damn about your personal motto, your motives, your attitude, what workshops you attended, your beliefs about art, how long it took you to write the book, or anything else. They want a book that pleases them. If you can write a book that does that, great, we love you. If not, we won't even remember rejecting it.

You can believe me or not as you please, but only one of us has bought books out of the slushpile.
... This unique writer conference
Algonkian does not possess unique wisdom in these matters. They also don't have an especially good record for turning aspiring writers into successful ones.

I don't criticize them for that. I criticize them for telling hapless writers that they possess those things.
was developed by the editors and authors at Algonkian Writer Conferences to provide you, the aspiring author, with not only network connections, but comprehensive, hands-on experience utilizing the craft skills, insider advice, and hard-to-swallow facts you must possess before you can even hope to get a first novel successfully published in this tougher-than-ever market.
That is completely false. It's not lying by implication; it's lying. Vast (relatively vast) numbers of authors have gotten their first-and-subsequent books published by major houses without ever going near an Algonkian workshop, or knowing word one about what they teach there; and the factors that really do affect the chances that a writer will get published are not even addressed by these pitch conferences.
This is experience and info you will not receive at any other conference,
Again: Algonkian possesses no unique wisdom in these matters.

Why don't other workshops share Algonkian's unique emphasis on pitch techniques? Because it doesn't help. It won't make you a better writer, and the odds that it will get you published are so low that it practically qualifies as a cargo-cult activity.

For my next point, I want you to do a thought experiment. Imagine that you really do possess The Secret of Getting Published. You book a hotel, announce a conference, and charge (say) a hundred writers whatever the traffic will bear.

Now: how long does it stay a secret? If your answer is "more than a day or two," you don't know enough writers.

The way this stuff works is not a secret. The only thing that makes it difficult is that there's so much misinformation going around out there. I regret to say that Algonkian is one of the forces that keeps it recirculating.
and certainly, not from any Craft and Tips 101 writer magazine.
I don't know any other workshop or writers' organization that regularly slams other information sources in its promo. All the other workshops and programs talk about what they think they're good at. Algonkian is the only one that constantly disses and sneers at the others, and says they're worthless. As other participants have pointed out here, the truth is that Algonkian doesn't have a terribly good record of helping writers to be successful. It is exactly the issue that they shouldn't be emphasizing.

I'll talk a little more about the language. It's nothing that regulars at AW don't already know.

There are themes, tropes, we see again and again from operations that make their money off unpublished or unsuccessful writers.

One is overemphasizing how many other writers are trying to get published, and how tough the market is right now. They're trying to make the writer feel crushed, like he or she can't make it on their own, so they have to buy into this company's program.

Another is the tough-talk routine about how you don't know anything, you believe in yourself too much or you don't believe in your book enough, but if you're serious you'll make the investment; so you have to put aside your ego, your qualms, your budget, your faith in your own judgement, and anything your other information sources have ever told you, and get with their program.

A third is either claiming outright, or clearly implying, that whatever they're selling will get you published. Legit operations never even suggest that, because they know there's no way they can guarantee it.

None of this proves anything bad about Algonkian or Michael Neff. It's just a set of consistent language patterns. But if anyone reading this has been wondering why some of us prickle up when we see material originating with Algonkian/Michael Neff/Web Del Sol, there's your answer: it's the tone.
 
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harrijsh

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Francis Kick Me For Getting Involved In This

Okay Francis Bruno, kick me for getting involved in this. I should probably just stay out of it, since the last time I wrote on here and said I enjoyed the Algonkian conferences I was blasted and called a "sock puppet."
I just want to be on the record for saying that I-who am a living, breathing person and live on the other side of the country from Michael Neff-enjoyed the conferences. I don't understand why people who have actually been to these conferences and gotten real advice by real editors--see Francis's post on the editors at the NYC Pitch and Shop--can't write that on here without being insulted or made to feel like we are stupid. And yes it makes me feel insulted when I get called names like "sock puppet." I am not an author you can find at Barnes and Noble (yet) but I'm smart enough to know what works for me and what doesn't and what I like and what I don't like.
I know that by attending the pitch and shop I've had contact with Akashic books, Penguin, and St. Martin's Press and also spoken with an agent in DC. I've also received countless and invaluable help//advice from both Michael Neff and Robert Bausch after the conferences, which was a lot of time I didn't pay for. In addition, Algonkian offers significant discounts for writers who have already attended one conference, (not all the conferences are the same.) This makes me believe they aren't just about the money, but genuinely trying to help people.
In answering the question "Was it worth my money?" For me, yes it was.
Was it the worth the time? For me, yes it was. This is just my opinion and in the big scheme of things, I'm just another writer trying to get published. I suppose now everyone can bring on the name calling...
 

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Glad to hear you enjoyed the conference, harrijsh!
 

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Okay Francis Bruno, kick me for getting involved in this. I should probably just stay out of it, since the last time I wrote on here and said I enjoyed the Algonkian conferences I was blasted and called a "sock puppet."
You mean here? Where you told us point blank you were drive-by posting? Here, I'll quote you, to save you the trouble of following the link:
I guess I would fall under the category of a "drive by-er" since this is my first and only post on this forum. It's also my first and only drive by experience, so I'm wearing a bandana; it's pretty exciting.
I had to stop by, much like my great friend Francis, and leave a few of my own comments and experiences from the Algonkian conferences.
First of all, as I have said on my own blog, Michael Neff is a god. I mean, sometimes Zeus like and a lot of times more like Hades, but a god nevertheless.

Where you presumably registered for an account just to provide an Algonkian testimonial? And right behind you came the now-banned TamaraL who registered just for the purposes of making repeated personal attacks on a member here--attacks that had nothing to do with writing or expertise, but based on former employment and her hair? TamaraL who proved to actually be a WebDelSol staff member/editor/whatever, here in disguise, just to troll? Much like the now-banned rc418 registered an account just for the purposes of leaving harassing, bullying messages on people's profiles?

Really, you wonder why we're a little skeptical about people who register accounts just to show up in an Algonkian discussion and tell us how lovely and wonderful and informative and professional these workshops are?

Since this is the only post directly responding to you:
There's little point in responding to you since you're a sock puppet/drive-by, but I want to clarify something. I never said Mr. Neff wasn't knowledgeable, savvy, intelligent, etc. In fact I repeatedly mentioned that I wasn't saying that.

I just have a sort of curiosity, I guess, when I see people claiming to help others do something which they have apparently not done themselves, and when I see people not involved in commercial publishing claiming to be expert on it.

Mr. Neff may very well be one; I never said he wasn't. I was simply curious, and mentioned it, because the subject hasn't really come up in this thread.
and it comes after you told us point blank you were drive-by posting, then doesn't it strike you as a bit disingenuous to pretend you were "blasted and called a 'sock puppet'"?

So here's a question for you, harrijsh, when I go poking into your IP address and registration email, is the trail of breadcrumbs going to lead me straight back to WebDelSol/Algonkian, yet again? TamaraL's does. BobDenny's does. rc418's does. How about yours?

Ghod, how I loathe the Algonkian threads.
 
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PatriciaVDavis

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About Michael Neff and Algonkian Conferences

For those who are interested---I was recently invited to speak at Michael Neff's conference. (Which is named for a park in Virginia where the workshops were originally held, by the way)

I knew very little about him, and so searched for him and found this posting. Immediately I put out an all points bulletin to people I knew who were also invited to speak and/or people who would know him better. I said I was leery of him because of what I had read here. The responses I got from people I trust were vehement in his defense. So much so, that I felt terrible for having doubted him in the first place. (Hence this public note.)

Here are the people who absolutely vouch for him, his work, his integrity and his conference: Elizabeth Pomada and Laurie McLean of Larsen-Pomada Literary Agency and Jane Friedman of F&W Publishers. I ended up apologizing to Michael for having doubted him, and am happy to be speaking at his conference taking place in Corte Madera, California, on July 31, 2011. Also Red Hen Press which published Michael's book, Year of the Rhinoceros, is indeed a legitimate press. I will be back to this posting to discuss my experience at the conference after July 31.

What have I learned from this? We clearly need to check not only what's being said about publishers, agents, conference organizers, etc. but then double check that the credentials of those who badmouth them and/or praise them also hold up to scrutiny.

In fact, you should check my credentials. I trust you will find them legitimate.

Thank you for your time,

Patricia V. Davis
editor-in-chief, HS Radio e-magazine
author of the upcoming The Diva Doctrine:16 Universal Principles Every Woman Needs to Know (May 2011 Cedar Fort Press)
 

Writer-2-Author

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Hi Patricia,
Thank you so much for posting here and for taking the time to research Michael Neff and his conferences. I met and spoke with Jane Friedman at the Midwest Writer's Workshop in Muncie, IN last summer and found her to be an extremely knowledgeable person in the world of publishing. Knowing that she backs these conferences is an added bonus for me. I look forward to meeting you and hearing you speak at the July conference!
Thanks,
Robin
 

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I hope you enjoy speaking at the conference, Patricia.

Still not seeing how it's different from other writers' conferences, let alone "unique". I'm also not seeing how Mr. Neff's experience of publishing with a small literary press makes him an expert on marketing "high-concept" books to a wide audience.

It does seem to me that there is a pretty significant dichotomy between the marketing copy and what we're hearing here, as well as between what the marketing copy says and the experiences of the participants to date.

Best of luck with your upcoming book.

Interesting that someone from F+W Publications (the publishers of Writer's Digest) is a fan; again, a bit of a dichotomy with the Algonkian marketing copy there.
 
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I am not an author you can find at Barnes and Noble (yet) but I'm smart enough to know what works for me and what doesn't and what I like and what I don't like.

And you're making a wonderful impression on all the editors and agents who are members here, not to mention all the much-published authors, and others who work in publishing.

In addition, Algonkian offers significant discounts for writers who have already attended one conference, (not all the conferences are the same.) This makes me believe they aren't just about the money, but genuinely trying to help people.

One of the interesting things about the Algonkian conference is that, unlike Clarion, and a number of other writing conferences and workshops, it isn't incorporated as a non-profit 503(c) organization. It's not unique in that, of course; I note that the Odyssey Fantasy Writing Workshop in Manchester, N.H. isn't a 503(c) either.
 

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In Response

I am not related to or in any other way associated or paid by Web Del Sol. I did not know Michael Neff until I attended a conference in NYC this September. Any of you may feel free to check out my credentials, although none of them are as impressive as most of the others on here. I am a high school English teacher in Chesapeake, VA...my work email is harrijsh(at)cps.k12.va.us and my home email is jsharrison19(at)gmail.com. Please feel free to look up my IP address if you wish as well. I'm not sure who TamaraL is, although I understand she apparently acted unprofessionally in a post that was closed down. I did refer to myself originally as a "drive byer" in jest because it was mentioned in a post previous to mine. My very good friend Francis originally directed me here when he saw a question about the Algonkian conferences and so I responded with my own experiences. To me a personal experience is just that and if you ask ten people you will get ten different answers. I'm just a little unsure why whenever I give mine on here I feel attacked...this would be the second time. People seem to be assuming that if I said something nice about Algonkian I was being paid or prompted to do so, which is simply not the case. I can say, "go Red Sox," that doesn't mean Boston is paying me to say that though; it's a personal preference.
 
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