27 rejections and losing faith

Shara · Aug 19, 2008

The finished novel has now been rejected 27 times.

Most of these have been form rejections which haven't specified a reason. There have been maybe 3 or 4 - UK agents - who have said while they quite like the story, they feel there's no market for an amateur sleuth story and aren't taking any more on. A couple have said that my main character is not strong enough to take through a series, and series are important these days.

The last rejection I had - from a small US publishers - stated that I showed evidence of "talent, but not polish". Well, at least it was personalised.

This is not the first novel I have tried to get published, it's the third (although the first one I wrote when I was 17 and it really wasn't very good so I don't always count that one).

I am working on a new novel, but the first draft isn't finished yet and it's a long way from being ready to send out.

So my question is, how many rejections do you think it's reasonable to receive before it's time to retire the manuscript and accept that this one will never see the light of day?

Shara

IHeartWriting · Aug 19, 2008

Forgive me, but I haven't finished my first pot of coffee yet, are you saying you've had 27 queries rejected (which I'm guessing from your sig) or you've had 27 partials/fulls rejected?

If it's queries, you need to rework the query.

If it's the actual manuscript, maybe you need to work on your polishing skills as the rejection suggested?

Maryn · Aug 19, 2008

I don't know that it's a number so much as exhausting the supply of potential publishers and/or literary agents. For a cozy mystery, 27 isn't it.

Consider, too, that the US market includes both small publishers who deal directly with authors and a bazillion agents who are the go-between for the medium and big publishers. Seems like every agent I've researched for my own work also reps mystery.

When you've been rejected by all the English-language publishers and agents who rep your genre, then it's time to hang up your skates. (What, you didn't write your novels while skating? Maybe I'm making this harder than I need to.)

Maryn, offering a hug and a beer (it's afternoon there, right?)

Calla Lily · Aug 19, 2008

What IHeart and Maryn said.

*hands chocolate and wine*

gypsyscarlett · Aug 19, 2008

Hi,

First- and I know this is difficult- but try not to feel discouraged. Just by finishing this novel, you've accomplished a great thing.

Now- does the novel need some more polishing? Have you sent it to Betas? I mean, other writers. Not friends and family.

Either polish it up more (if it needs it) or continue sending it out. You mentioned you'd sent it to British markets? What about American?

Good luck!

added- just reread your post. I see that you did send it out to a US publisher. Well, keep on sending it out...

Shara · Aug 19, 2008

IHeart, the procedure's slightly different in the UK. Agents ask for the first three chapters + synopsis in the first instance. And unusually enough the US publishers I've tried have asked for the same thing. So all of the rejections have been on the basis of that initial submission.

The only request for a full I've had came from a UK agent, and though she had very nice things to say about it, she said she was turning it down because of the difficulty of selling an amateur sleuth story.

Polishing is one of the options. I have considered hauling the manuscript in for another rewrite before sending it out again. But the phrase 'polishing a turd' comes to mind...if the manuscript's unpublishable, I shouldn't waste any more time on it and focus on the new WIP instead.

I also wonder if you should pay too much attention to every suggestion if they are all different. Only one rejection suggested the manuscript needs more polish. If I had half a dozen saying the same thing it would be a different story.

Gypsy, yes, it's had beta readers. The writing group thoroughly tore it to shreds. I reworked it, rewrote it and polished it a couple more times after that. Perhaps there was more I could have changed, but I got to a point when I thought, 'it's done'.

I have exhausted most of the UK agents and small crime presses here in the UK, but I haven't fully exploited the American market yet. Or Canadian, come to think of it, and my character's Canadian so I hope that will be an option (although the preliminary research I've done on the Canadian small press seems to suggest that you have to be a Canadian to consider submitting to them).

Maryn - yes it's afternoon here in London. Perhaps not too early for that beer.

Chocolates and wine also gratefully received from you, callalily.

I guess I need to keep sending it out. I'm just going to wallow for a while first.

Shara

Shadow_Ferret · Aug 19, 2008

Have you posted either the query or the first chapter in the Share Your Work section here? Maybe some of the more savvy members could point out areas for improvement. Maybe all it does need is some polish.

dawinsor · Aug 19, 2008

Uncle Jim says send it out til hell won't have it. Why not? Do it and don't think about it.

In the meantime, concentrate on your WIP.

Gray Rose · Aug 19, 2008

Shara, hugs. This is very frustrating.

If you are getting personal rejections, you are on the right track imho. But also in my very humble opinion, if somebody says "not polished," you need to start thinking about giving your novel that extra polish. Look for beta readers, post in the SYW forum, do whatever it takes to make your work the best it can - and deserves - to be.

best of luck,
Rose

Red-Green · Aug 19, 2008

Aww...you made me sad.

27 rejections is not yet time to consign further efforts to the realm of turd-polishing. Have a good cry and a stiff drink and try again. If you can get a fresh reader, try that and see if you can come up with improvements, but don't give up yet.

Shara said:
But the phrase 'polishing a turd' comes to mind...if the manuscript's unpublishable, I shouldn't waste any more time on it and focus on the new WIP instead.
I guess I need to keep sending it out. I'm just going to wallow for a while first.

MarkEsq · Aug 19, 2008

Ah, such an amateur. No disrespect, Shara, but really, you are such an amateur. I mean, 27 rejections and you are thinking of hanging it up? Ha! Now me, I'm a pro at getting rejected. My hide is thicker than a rhino's, my ego more battered than an onion ring. You see, I am rocking along at the same number as you and feel like I have barely warmed up.

Also, my dear, like you, like most of us here, I have no idea if my novel is good enough to see the light of day. I have no idea, not really, if an agent will grab it and hug it and love it enough to want to coddle me through the publication process. But I'm buggered if I'm stopping before I have given every agent the opportunity to fall in love with my story and my characters. And I mean every (reputable) agent in America and the UK (my MC is English). And then I'll try the publishers on my own.

Here's what I tell myself: "Just think, Mark, one day you can look [insert your favorite interviewer] in the eye and say, 'I was rejected by 134 agents before I hit paydirt' and inspire people like you and me who occasionally need a wee pick-me-up.

But until I hit primetime, I'll sit and have a cheering beer with you.

Clair Dickson · Aug 19, 2008

Since there are SO many mysteries already published and SO many people writing mysteries (hi! me too!) you have to GRAB your reader/ agents hard in the sample pages. You may not be doing that-- and your mystery may sound a little too much same-old, same-old. It's a competitive market-- what are you doing differently to stand out from [insert 27 names of mystery writers already published]?

See if you can't tweak the beginning chapters to make it more gripping right off the bat. See how you are or are not different from the rest of the mystery writers and play that up more in the query and sample chapters.

Yes, it's discouraging, but you've only just begun querying. Aside from all the other factors, you do have to find the *right* reader (probably on teh right day with the stars aligned just right... ;-). But I still think the key to getting a mystery publised lies in what you do DIFFERENT from all the rest of the herd.

Best of luck from another mystery writer... who may just be saying these things to ease the sting of my own rejections. =D

Phaeal · Aug 19, 2008

Ditto the SYW suggestion if you haven't posted some of the novel there already. No way to answer the polish question without seeing a little of what the agents are seeing.

Ditto MarkEsq, too. Quit before the options are exhausted? Never! You can keep submitting this novel, one or two agents/publishers a week, while you keep working on the next. And even if that fails, keep the MS safe. If you sell another book, you may be able to resurrect this one to greater interest.

Hobbes · Aug 19, 2008

Shara,
Just take a look at how many publishers and agents are out there. Tons! Let's just say, for example, there are 999 publishers and agents. That's 999 different opinions about your book. You've only let 27 of them see it. I'm one of those who save the rejections and I have quite a stack. But I will tell you it was well beyond 27 when I found my publisher!

Don't give up! Just remember those rejections are opinions, polish as needed, and send it out again.

Maryn · Aug 19, 2008

Hobbes said:
Just take a look at how many publishers and agents are out there. Tons!

Depending on the average weight per publisher or agent, there are only ten or fifteen to the (US) ton (equivalent to a UK "short ton"), so "tons" is entirely accurate.

Maryn, who didn't try very hard to find a multi-ton term

IHeartWriting · Aug 19, 2008

I think I'm just really thick today, but I'm still not getting this, sorry. You've submitted the first three chapters 27 times and had only one full request?

Not to be harsh, but if that's the case, I'd say that it needs to be polished, or reworked, or something because it's obviously not catching/holding the attention of the agents.

While it's great to not lose hope, and this board is full of wonderful cheerleaders to help bolster your spirits, it also seems foolish, imho, to keep doing something that's not working and expecting a different outcome. You may be right about putting it aside for the moment. Perhaps in working on your other WIP you'll learn how to fix this one.

jamesn65 · Aug 19, 2008

Have your queries garnered any requests for partials? If so, your query's probably not the problem. If not, I'd post it over on the Share Your Work section to see if it can be strengthened.

How common is it for agents to request a full ms based on a query alone? I've started querying and have gotten some partial requests (pending ones--fingers crossed), but never a full request.

dgiharris · Aug 19, 2008

Shara said:
IHeart, the procedure's slightly different in the UK. Agents ask for the first three chapters + synopsis in the first instance. And unusually enough the US publishers I've tried have asked for the same thing. So all of the rejections have been on the basis of that initial submission.

...she said she was turning it down because of the difficulty of selling an amateur sleuth story.

Polishing is one of the options. I have considered hauling the manuscript in for another rewrite before sending it out again. But the phrase 'polishing a turd' comes to mind...if the manuscript's unpublishable, I shouldn't waste any more time on it and focus on the new WIP instead.

I also wonder if you should pay too much attention to every suggestion if they are all different. Only one rejection suggested the manuscript needs more polish. If I had half a dozen saying the same thing it would be a different story.

Gypsy, yes, it's had beta readers. The writing group thoroughly tore it to shreds. I reworked it, rewrote it and polished it a couple more times after that. Perhaps there was more I could have changed, but I got to a point when I thought, 'it's done'.

I have exhausted most of the UK agents and small crime presses here in the UK, but I haven't fully exploited the American market yet. Or Canadian, come to think of it, and my character's Canadian so I hope that will be an option (although the preliminary research I've done on the Canadian small press seems to suggest that you have to be a Canadian to consider submitting to them).

So, I guess in my mind, you mentioned that all of your beta writers were part of your writer's group. Did you happen to get any beta readers that are hard core mystery readers? How about a few cross genre (love to read everything) type readers.

I think sometimes we writers make the mistake of depending on the opinions of other writers. Of course, there is value in it, but remember, our ultimate customer is the reader. I would say that you should try getting at least 3 - 5 beta readers (who are non-writers) to read it and comment. I would think there opinions are gold. And, the beta readers should not be friends, they should be people who are indiferrent.

In terms of polishing a turd. I absolutely agree and think that is why the above feedback is really important.

As for a number? My personal belief is more aligned with MarkEsq.

Do you know of any editor types who can go through your book. I think it is important to learn from the book so that if there are mistakes you don't repeat them in the next book.

Lastly, I will say that there is a good chance that your book is "Good enough".

I just recently started reading some mysteries and on the whole, I've read some good one's and some horrible-how-could-they-publish-this ones. So odds are you are publishable, just gotta find the right home for your baby.

anyways, good luck

Mel...

mscelina · Aug 19, 2008

You'll be fine. Just keep grinding it out there. My current novel in query hell has garnered over 70 initial rejections from the query, with three partials and a full rejected beyond that. It's still with a number of agents, so I've not given up on it. In the meantime, I'm completing another final draft for my next novel to make the rounds, completing the third novel of my fantasy series for publication this fall, and starting a entirely new project to keep me busy. It keeps me from sticking on the number of rejections and focused on what I need to do as a writer to keep my career going and growing.

Despite my pessimistic nature, I find it difficult to be negative about rejections on my work. So far, everything I've submitted has--eventually--been accepted. Don't give up and keep at it, always working, always perfecting, always rethinking. You'll be fine.

Karen Duvall · Aug 19, 2008

jamesn65 said:
Have your queries garnered any requests for partials? If so, your query's probably not the problem. If not, I'd post it over on the Share Your Work section to see if it can be strengthened.

How common is it for agents to request a full ms based on a query alone? I've started querying and have gotten some partial requests (pending ones--fingers crossed), but never a full request.

I remember when I first started querying, no one asked for a full from my first batch of about 25 queries and paritals. I sent out my second batch and I ended up with 8 full requests (the last one came after I'd already accepted an offer of representation) and I hadn't changed anything in my query or my partial. That's probably unusual. But for me it was half and half, half of the full requests came based on the query alone, the other half on my partial.

cate townsend · Aug 19, 2008

So only one publisher/editor has said it lacks polish? Sounds like a subjective comment to me. Unless you're getting several agents or editors saying the same thing, don't go ripping your MS to shreds again. I agree with most of what has been said here: get a few betas, and post your query for feedback. My advice? Query widely. You're writing mystery - there are at the very least a hundred more agents than you've queried who rep that genre - query them!

sheadakota · Aug 20, 2008

Have hope. In one day I had a rejection that stated "not for me" to a full request that stated "I love this concept, please send me the maniscript if its still available" (still waiting on word from that one)

triceretops · Aug 20, 2008

I might be wrong but I get the impression your concentration has been on the English side. Have you begun the American quest? It's quite expansive, and will push your opportunities up into the triple digits. 27 is really nothing. You've just begun.

Tri

MelodyO · Aug 20, 2008

Look at it this way: if you met 27 guys and none of them wanted to marry you, would you assume you're never going to get married because you suck just that bad? No!

You'd tell yourself that you just aren't their type and keep looking for the right guy for you. You might get a new haircut or buy some new outfits (make revisions) or ask a friend what they think you might change for the better (betas), but you wouldn't give up after 27 guys, especially if you never even went on a first date with any of them...would you?

MsJudy · Aug 20, 2008

I did give up on a book after about that many rejections, but it had a lot to do with what I was learning from the books I was writing while the rejections piled up. I realized that the ones I had in progress were going to be much better, and that's where I wanted to put my energy.

So....How do YOU feel about this book? Is it really and truly the best you can do? Is it as good as most of the books on the shelf? If it is, then just keep going and don't give up on it until you have nowhere left to send it.

If you have doubts, though, then it might be good to get more opinions or set it aside for a while.

Either way, don't give up on yourself. It just means you have more to learn!

27 rejections and losing faith

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