Preditors & Editors Lawsuit

It's NOT that Dave is calling PA names, or saying they stink. It's a personal defamation suit between Victor and Dave. PA has no part in it.

No offense, but Dave did say all that stuff and it was not in the name of Preditors and Editors that he did so. He said it on his own about a man, he did the crime and the law is the law. Not saying he cannot appeal and get it dropped or whatever, but he said some awful things about a man who has done nothing to him and caused all kinds of his own problems.

I would not feel right donating to a man who openly said things I did not agree with.

I'm not an ex/pa author and have nothing against V.C. and found the things done toward him were way overboard. I think this case is a good example of why you should not defame anyone online or off.

This case IS about defamation, not PA. The jury found Dave guilty and he has the right to appeal but I doubt everyone here is on his side and rooting for him. I like Dave, but if you run your mouth then expect the consequences.

Again, the difference between 'guilty' and 'liable'. No crime was committed and Dave has not been convicted of anything. This was a civil jury in a civil lawsuit. Whether you agree or not. Just reminding everyone to consider their words correctly.

I disagree and have donated to the appeal fund and will do so again. I recommend everyone do so as well. It's about the continued viability of sites like AW and P&E.

I'm just wondering...

If the appeal were lost (which I hope will not happen), what would be done with P&E?

This case is not about P&E and guilty/liable pretty much means Dave lost. You can donate all you want, but the man came online and said those things to the open public in hopes of ruining VC's reputation and credability with his company and anyone who might hire him. I think this is like karma, what goes around, comes around.

I'm not saying for everyone to not donate, but I will not be because I feel Dave should not have said what he said and did what he did. I don't endorse criminal behavior.

How does donating to him help him, why should we pay for his mistake?

If a man steals a loaf of bread for his family, is he still a thief? Yes, he is. If he is found guilty, no amount of appeals will change the fact that he did the crime. Dave did not have to say what he said about VC, he had no business saying it nor did he have the right. He broke the law and now a jury has seen that he is liable.

You used the word 'crime' and 'guilty'. That is not what happened. You basically accused Dave of committing a crime. Under the Virginia defamation standard, you just committed 'defamation per se.' Words have power and should be chosen carefully.

Again, you disagree. That's your right. Notice, no one has rushed in to moderate your post, and you haven't been banned, or sent to the 'bad hair day' private forum. Not even a 'tone letter'. That's the beauty of a site like AW, where all opinions are welcome.

Donate, or don't donate. Agree or don't agree. Again, your choice. Just state your case accurately.

QoS, the verdict and/or appeal doesn't affect P&E per se unless Dave decides to not continue his invaluable work. However, a verdict like this could have a chilling effect on the watchdog sites, not to mention the psychological victory and misuse of the verdict that PA is already implementing.

I don't endorse criminal behavior.

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Civil lawsuits aren't criminal cases. There is a real risk for anyone posting (particularly those who host forums such as this or sites like P&E) of vicarious liability. I'm not sure about the United States, but here in Canada there have been several high profile cases where bloggers and forum owners were held liable for comments on their forums. Moderators can do the best they possibly can to police public forums, butunless that moderator has some legal expertise, they're not qualified to determine what or what doesn't constitute slander or libel. Even giving an opinion on a legal matter might possibly constitute the unauthorized practice of law.

We live in a society where you can be sued for looking at someone the wrong way. Be vigilant about these matters folks...

I know exactly what I'm saying and mean, and yes I am not a lawyer and don't play one on the internet, but I do know the difference in right and wrong. If it were one of us who said those things and got brought into court over it I doubt anyone here would care. I believe that what was said was wrong, and I hope those who are following the case are looking at both sides. You may take a mod hat off or on, doesn't matter because I feel what I feel and my opinion may be unpopular or whatever, but the fact remains that I am not alone here when I say others do not think of this as a victory over P&E but a simple case of one man who said things that were wrong and is now being persued by legal means. I don't feel if you own a site that you have the right to call others names, simple as that. I have read what was said and done to VC and my opinion is--that it was wrong, simple as that. I don't see why a thread would be closed when someone has a differing opinion from someone else. I applaud circlex for their right to speak and have an opinion. I also expect to have the same and hope that people will make up their own minds on who is in their mind right or wrong on the issue. We can believe who we want, we can look at the facts and decide, it's not a crime to say I believe one person is innocent.

Maybe I should have not read up on the statements that were posted or the anything, maybe I should have just said "I'm behind you" when things went down, but I'm not like that. I wanted to make a decision based on how it would have felt had it happened to me.

People think this will affect sites, I think this has affected people.

Accuracy doesn't seem to have been a major issue generally in the thread. Some people seemed to think they were helping P&E take PA to task.

Why should there be requests to close the thread? What are people afraid of? If unacceptable posts are made, the moderators - those who keep their hats on, at least - have measures available without resorting to closing the thread.

We all agree to the forum rules when we register, which includes not making posts that violate laws. Does making defamatory posts come under that rule? Perhaps a hat-wearing moderator can clarify.

If there is an effect arising out of the court case this week, maybe it's that people will think more carefully about what they're posting.

Cheers,
Rob

circlexranch said:

This isn't about Vic v. Dave. This is about the viability of sites like AW and P&E.

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AW, P&E and Writer Beware Blogs! have been tremendous sources of information for me. My husband and I run a small online writers' forum and, without the help of the people who run and contribute to the above mentioned sites, we could not have weathered our own recent 'threat of libel' storm.

There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who take perverse joy in trying to scam unsuspecting newbies out of their cash and their work. We all need to be vigilant and do our best to uncover these scammers in ways that do not subject us to court action. While doing our best, we must also learn HOW to accomplish our goal. It's oh so tempting to be brutally honest with our words and our emotions but we've got to be cautious in this litigious world.

Dave, thank you for the work you've done and that will continue to be done. I can only hope that you'll be successful in an appeal.

INAL, but defamation falls under civil law rather than criminal law. And because INAL and I still have the coffee IV hooked up, I'll let one of the attorneys hanging out here explain the difference.

And just for the record (because I blogged about it and it's already on the record) the main reason I gave is whether Dave is right or wrong, he should have a shot a shot at proper representation in court - as does anyone in a similar situation.

Anyone here certainly has a right to disagree with my reasons, but be clear they're not tied to the specifics of the case as much as the principle that people should have proper representation in court. Whether or not anyone wants to contribute to the fund is their own business.

RobJ said:

Accuracy doesn't seem to have been a major issue generally in the thread. Some people seemed to think they were helping P&E take PA to task.

Why should there be requests to close the thread? What are people afraid of? If unacceptable posts are made, the moderators - those who keep their hats on, at least - have measures available without resorting to closing the thread.

We all agree to the forum rules when we register, which includes not making posts that violate laws. Does making defamatory posts come under that rule? Perhaps a hat-wearing moderator can clarify.

If there is an effect arising out of the court case this week, maybe it's that people will think more carefully about what they're posting.

Cheers,
Rob

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Fear has nothing to do with the matter: facts do. There has been much conjecture in this thread as well as erroneous facts; the truth is somewhere in the middle. Dave has stated he is considering an appeal. That means the matter is not concluded in the legal system, making this discussion little more than armchair quarterbacking.

I'm now closing this thread for awhile pending an Admins review. I'll agree with Rob's final thought, in a simpler format --Own your words.

P&E is being sued!

Predators and Editors is being sued! The tabloid trailer trash in me is dying to know the who/what/where/when/why. Haven't seen it posted over here so I thought I'd let y'all know.

mommyjo2 said:

Predators and Editors is being sued! The tabloid trailer trash in me is dying to know the who/what/where/when/why. Haven't seen it posted over here so I thought I'd let y'all know.

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What, again? Or is this the Cretella lawsuit that's been running for eighteen months now?

Ya know, I don't know if it's new or different. I rarely hit that sites homepage, and just got a notification from my state writer's league about it.

The search function on this site really is sad and broken - I swear I searched to see if it had been posted and came up empty. But Google pointed me to threads from Feb 2008 on here.

mommyjo2 said:

Ya know, I don't know if it's new or different. I rarely hit that sites homepage, and just got a notification from my state writer's league about it.

The search function on this site really is sad and broken - I swear I searched to see if it had been posted and came up empty. But Google pointed me to threads from Feb 2008 on here.

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I'm pretty sure we'd have heard if a second lawsuit was being brought against P&E. I wonder if your people just forgot to check the date on the story they stumbled across.

mommyjo2 said:

Ya know, I don't know if it's new or different. I rarely hit that sites homepage, and just got a notification from my state writer's league about it.

The search function on this site really is sad and broken - I swear I searched to see if it had been posted and came up empty. But Google pointed me to threads from Feb 2008 on here.

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You have to remember to press Enter.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106444