Novels started from short stories?

Status
Not open for further replies.

KitCat

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
788
Reaction score
86
Location
State of Insanity
I thought maybe this would be the place to ask this since i'm fairly new to submitting short stories and such and I've been wondering about this for awhile.

I've read in interviews and articles about authors that have novels that were started as short stories. I understand that some of them meant unpublished short stories and the story just grew into a novel but my question is this:

if you write a short story that you want to submit to mags, involving a world, or characters that you would later like to use in a novel, is that possible or a problem as far as publishing goes?

ex. a Short Story involving Mike and May doing A, submitted to mag, published and then using Mike and May (and/or their world) in novel doing B

Or could you even vary the short story to add into the novel?
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
There is no problem in principle in reusing characters or places from a published short story in a later story or novel. I remember Greg Egan's novel Permutation City was based on a published short story of his that I'd read.

However, your ability to reuse characters and situations depends on the rights you sell. There is a lot of rights-grabbing out there, and some places seem to want the copyright, or rights to subsequent works, or even rights to the characters. Be careful therefore what rights you part with.

You could definitely change the short story to incorporate it into a novel. Usually prior publication is acknowledged with something along the lines of 'Parts of this novel appeared in a different form as the short story TITLE in NAME OF PUBLICATION on DATE'. If I had Permutation City on me I could look up the wording used there, but I don't.
 
Last edited:

MJNL

A Little Lost
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
117
Website
lostetter.wordpress.com
What buffysquirrel said.

Except, most of those rights-grabs you have to watch out for are things you should avoid and very few reputable and stable markets (ETA: on the short story side. Once it's a novel it's a different ball game) will ask for anything of the sort. More typically you'll be asked for first world (sometimes just North American) rights, and then all rights (perhaps with the publication still possessing archival rights) will revert back to you after a pre-set amount of time (usually no more than a year). When you posses all the rights you can do whatever you want with it. But there probably will be some sort of stipulation about mentioning where the story first appeared.
 
Last edited:

KitCat

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
788
Reaction score
86
Location
State of Insanity
Thanks both of you very much :) Makes sense and now you mention it I think i have seen those mentions of a short story mention in certain books.
 

areteus

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,636
Reaction score
183
Location
Manchester UK
Kim Newman's Anno Dracula was a short story (in an anthology and I think also in Interzone - at least according to my wife who remembers reading it in there...) before it became a novel. Having read the novel and the short, I can say that the novel is basically the short with expanded plot and description.

Michael Moorcock published the first few chapters of The Dreamthief's Daughter (the most recent Elric Story, the one set in Nazi Germany) in a magazine before the novel hit the market. I suspect this was more of a publicity thing, though. A 'try before you buy' deal.

My own Tryptych of the Gates started out as three pieces of Flash Fiction (three very short character pieces with a connected theme - hence the term 'tryptych'). When I posted this to a crit group I got many many comments along the lines of 'we want to see more of this, when are you going to complete this novel?' to which I replied 'what novel? This is all there is.' I finally capitulated and began to plot out a novel based on the same concepts. One day I may even finish it...

Transitions started out as two short stories which were merged into one novella.

So, yes, it is possible...
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
There is no problem. You may sell all rights to a given story, but this does not mean you can't write a novel based on that story, and use the same characters.

Even when selling all rights, which means giving up copyright, the copyright you give up applies only to that story, and never to a novel written off that story. The two are completely separate things, and copyright on one has no bearing on copyright of the other.

There are hundreds of novel out there that started life as short stories. Turning short stories into novels is as common as dirt.

But I'm not a believer in starting something as a short story and having it grow into a novel on its own. This pretty much never works, if publishing is your aim.
 

KitCat

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
788
Reaction score
86
Location
State of Insanity
thanks for the answers everyone :)

@Jamesaritchie: No, i'm not asking as a short story growing 'into' a novel, but more that there's a smaller story involving characters that doesn't fit into a novel, but a story all the same. A related adventure type thing.

(Granted I am getting a little ahead of myself I know, the question was just bothering me and I didn't necessarily want to submit such a short story if it would hinder the larger project later.)
 

Michael Davis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
557
Reaction score
44
Location
SW VA
I have two shorts that turned into full length novels. FINAL SOLUTION (released 5/2012) started as a short SF (TOUCH OF BLUE, release 6/2011) and publisher liked so much asked if I could expand the fictional world into a novel. One I'm working on now started as an offworld short SF (BROK HON) and I liked so much I didn't want the characters to fade away (g). IOW - no problem. ALso fits two markets - thoses that like shorts and those that perfer full length but likely not all shorts have the hidden depth to expand to 90000+ words, IMO.
 

Gondomir

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
147
Reaction score
7
Location
Kansas
Ray Bradbury thought of his novels as a series of short stories, and his novels were not particularly long either--novellas by today's standards. You'd be in good company.
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
Surely if you sell the copyright to a story that includes character names and descriptions, as well as any invented places.
 

AshleyEpidemic

Did you see my bag?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,561
Reaction score
119
Location
Austin
Website
www.soipondered.wordpress.com
Pardon my revival of this thread, but I just wanted some clarification. I just plotted out a short story and I realized I could write a novel from the premise. Not an expansion, but something set in the same universe and delving deeper.

I am still green when it comes to writing seriously and I was curious which rights to watch for if I wanted to seek publication for the short story and still be able to write a novel in the same universe possibly seeking publication for the novel as well.

I know it is early since I just plotted, but I like to plan for all possible outcomes.
 

eyeblink

Barbara says hi
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
6,358
Reaction score
892
Location
Aldershot, UK
Surely if you sell the copyright to a story that includes character names and descriptions, as well as any invented places.

No it doesn't - you sell the rights (e.g. First North American Serial Rights for publication in a US magazine) for that story in that form, not for characters and settings. You would be very ill-advised to sell the copyright of a story. Harry Potter characters and settings, for example, are trademarked, which is something else entirely.

For the two stories I sold to Interzone in the 1990s, I sold First English-Language Serial Rights. My contract stipulated that I could not sell the story elsewhere for a year, unless it was to form part of a novel, be reprinted in my own short-story collection or be reprinted in a Year's Best Anthology. In any of those cases, I would have needed to get written permission from Interzone, but it would not have been unreasonably withheld.
 

JustSarah

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
35
Website
about.me
So if I were to publish with Fantasy & Science Fiction (As an example, not necessarily going with them.) I could sell the first chapters or so, while working on the main novel?
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
Surely if you sell the copyright to a story that includes character names and descriptions, as well as any invented places.

Well, you should never, ever sell all rights to a short story, and few, if any, good markets ask for all rights. Even most markets that do ask for all rights will only buy first rights, if the writers asks. Trouble is, most writers don't ask.

If you can't get out of an all rights sale, decide it's better made than lost, then read the contract carefully, and make sure the market is only buying all rights to the story itself, and not to the characters, plus all future works derived from character and setting. That's a scam, and you want nothing to do with it any any price.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
The most obvious example of this is the famous story "Flowers for Algernon", by Daniel Keyes. Originally published as a short, Keyes later expanded it into a novel, basically by just adding material, but not fundamentally altering the plot. It didn't make the story better, IMO. The short is, to me, more powerful, precisely because it is short. The novel reads as a bit flabby, I think. Although may it wouldn't have if I hadn't read the short first.

I don't know what rights situation may have been involved in Keyes' reworking of the story.

caw
 

Barking Tree

Registered
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
39
Reaction score
7
Location
Staffordshire, UK
Also, Dan Simmons' superb novel "Carrion Comfort" began as a short story (which became the first chapter of the novel, if I recall correctly.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
As long as you aren't selling copyright, there are zero restrictions on the story. The thing to remember is that no magazine owns anything not specifically spelled out in the contract.

You can't accidentally sells rights, as long as you read the contract.
 

Wardeth

I want to make my brother shave
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Messages
66
Reaction score
2
Location
Arizona
This is a great thread, I'd like to offer kudos
 

Kim Fierce

Attack me with everything you have.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
1,366
Reaction score
129
Location
Indiana
Website
kimnflowers.blogspot.com
The Girl in the Steel Corset by Kady Cross has a short story called The Strange Case of Finley Jayne that they use as a prequel.

My upcoming book started out as a vague idea, then a short story for a contest which never was, then turned into a novel. Some presses publish both short stories and novels, so you could make use of both versions. If you have a short story that you want to expand, like others have said, make sure if you do get the shorter version published you check out the rights.
 

loki76

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
187
Reaction score
9
Go for it. I have based two novels off of short stories I wrote when people kept urging me to. There is nothing wrong with it, the characters and idea are all yours.
 

Bertram Fox

Registered
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Location
Yorkshire
Website
www.bertramfox.com
I've written a couple of short stories which, when I looked back at them, looked like the opening chapter of a novel: the characters and situation cried out for more. So I asked my publisher what the position would be if I simply used them that way, as they stood.

Her answer, fairly enough, was that if I offered them the novel, that would be fine! But if I was selling the novel elsewhere, I'd either have to rewrite the story enough that it wasn't the same one, or wait till my contract for the story expired. (These are only sold for a year, so given how slowly I write, that's no hardship.)

A more extreme situation than most people here are talking about, but I hope it helps.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
I've written a couple of short stories which, when I looked back at them, looked like the opening chapter of a novel: the characters and situation cried out for more. So I asked my publisher what the position would be if I simply used them that way, as they stood.

Her answer, fairly enough, was that if I offered them the novel, that would be fine! But if I was selling the novel elsewhere, I'd either have to rewrite the story enough that it wasn't the same one, or wait till my contract for the story expired. (These are only sold for a year, so given how slowly I write, that's no hardship.)

A more extreme situation than most people here are talking about, but I hope it helps.

Unless the contract specified that you had given up novelization rights, the editor was dead wrong.
 

Rufus Leeking

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
236
Reaction score
12
There is no problem. You may sell all rights to a given story, but this does not mean you can't write a novel based on that story, and use the same characters.

Even when selling all rights, which means giving up copyright, the copyright you give up applies only to that story, and never to a novel written off that story. The two are completely separate things, and copyright on one has no bearing on copyright of the other.

There are hundreds of novel out there that started life as short stories. Turning short stories into novels is as common as dirt.

But I'm not a believer in starting something as a short story and having it grow into a novel on its own. This pretty much never works, if publishing is your aim.
If you give a publication the copyright to a short story (which isn't what most contracts give the publication, but I'm just following the hypo), and that short story becomes Chapter 1 in a novel, how are you not violating the publication's copyright?
 

Cappy1

Scared and loving it...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
122
Reaction score
9
Website
mark-capell.com
I'd be suspicious of trying to develop a short story into a novel. I think it's psychological, but I'd always be worried that I was just padding.
 

WriterBN

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
1,323
Reaction score
87
Location
Delaware
Website
www.k-doyle.com
I did the opposite with my current book. It started out as an episodic novel, but I broke it into a collection of short stories. I think it works much better this way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.