Help George Zimmerman. Send Money!

thebloodfiend

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Your earlier comment about victim blaming in sex crimes also fits this, but I don't think I can keep up this level of cold-blooded analysis into that.

It's the Just World Fallacy. Nancy was raped because she was a hooker; because she wore a short skirt; because she didn't yell no. Not because, you know, a rapist just wanted to rape a woman. By placing the blame on Nancy, it becomes easier to imagine that it won't happen to you, because you'll be "smarter". You won't walk in the dark alone, or wear seductive clothes, or lie limply on the ground. Because she did, she was dumb, and therefor, she deserved it. Or she was asking for it. Either or.

In a way, that falls onto blaming Martin, too. After all, if he was just a pot smoking thug (you didn't inhale in college, remember :rolleyes) there's no way this could happen to your children. Martin was shot, therefor, he did something wrong. I mean, who accidentally shoots innocent teenagers? If a guy like that exists, you have to worry about your kids, too.
 

Chrissy

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Can we please give the defense attorney a break? This is what he's constitutionally obligated to do.

The defense tactics make me sick, but if we don't give these guys (almost) free reign to defend their clients, why have the principle of innocent until proven guilty?

Maybe the defense attorney should try this one: ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx32b5igLwA
 

Lyv

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Thank you. I've read over two dozen news articles from CNN, ABC, Washington Post, MSNBC, etc., and there were very few that weren't slanted toward slandering Zimmerman. I was wrong to say that "all were"

Since there are so many, please provide a link. I would love to see what you consider "slanted toward slandering Zimmerman." Especially what you consider "slander," given demonstrated your interest in using the legal definitions of words. Bear in mind, factually reporting on Zimmerman's past legal issues isn't slandering him. It's doing exactly what the articles I linked to did--reporting facts.

But, please, show me the slander!
 

Lyv

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Actually, since slander is oral in legal terms (as you want it used), I'll keep to bias. But, I'll post some of the articles up this afternoon when I have time to go through my history, seeing as there are dozens more each day.

I'll look forward to seeing articles from the sources you named that slander George Zimmerman.

(And, yes, I know you used the wrong term, but I let it slide).
 

cmi0616

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And a blog that tries to paint Trayvon Martin as a drug dealer?

You know, I don't believe for a second that he was, but even if the worst the remarkably biased sites you linked to were true, so what?

Exactly!

A lot of these Zimmerman-sympathizers have used this excuse "Oh, Trayvon Martin had a bad reputation. He got caught at school with pot, and people say he was a drug dealer."

So, just because our country has stupid laws and a stupid attitude when it comes marijuana, that makes the death of an unnarmed team justified?

That people not only sympathize with this man, but that they give him money so he can spend time out of a prison is sickening to me. It's troubling to see that we're still so racially divided here in 2012.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I think to some people Zimmerman is the equivalent of Batman. He was a citizen being 'vigilant'.

This is probably not important to most people, but it is very important to me--Batman does not kill people. Ever. He believes that killing people, even the ones who "deserve" it would taint him. In Cacaphony, he had a choice between going after the bad guy, and saving the life of the Joker, the man who had murdered his adoptive son. He saved the Joker.

I think you are right, though, but it bothers me that people would equate Zimmerman's carelessness with my childhood hero.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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This is probably not important to most people, but it is very important to me--Batman does not kill people. Ever. He believes that killing people, even the ones who "deserve" it would taint him. In Cacaphony, he had a choice between going after the bad guy, and saving the life of the Joker, the man who had murdered his adoptive son. He saved the Joker.

I think you are right, though, but it bothers me that people would equate Zimmerman's carelessness with my childhood hero.

Not disagreeing on the matter of Batman's morality which was always one of the best aspects of the character (along with his mind-boggling omni-competence).

That's kind of why I chose Batman as the exemplar of the idea that's being conflated. As a vigilante hero he's probably the most strongly iconic. If I were being more technically exact I'd have cited the Shadow or the Death Wish movies, but they don't have the cultural reverberation of Batman these days.
 

Ari Meermans

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Trayvon Martin's "prior bad acts" (however egregious someone might consider them) have NO bearing on this case, imo. In this instance he was walking home from the store and minding his own damned business. He wasn't fleeing a crime. He wasn't participating in a crime. He was simply walking down the street. He was followed and approached by a strange man. It wouldn't have taken long for him to realize this encounter was potentially dangerous. If he'd run and was chased, that would only have heightened the danger in his mind. It would mine. But, whether he ran or not, no scenario for the events of that night that I can think of--other than Zimmerman staying in his vehicle AS HE WAS TOLD TO DO--has the potential to end well.

George Zimmerman didn't know Trayvon and, sure as hell, didn't know his history. His history, on the other hand, shows a pattern of bad judgment in reliance on the use of force. This is a man who should never have been given any sort of authority.

Again, the aforegoing is strictly my opinion.
 

clintl

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Not to mention, Zimmerman has told lie after lie since the incident. It just did not happen the way Zimmerman claims it did.
 

zerosystem

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I think the man is guilty as hell and I hope he gets locked up for a long time but realistically, sadly, I think he's been over charged and he'll walk.
I agree. I think Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, and that any evidence the prosecution has can only convict him of that. However, to charge him with murder 2 when they have no evidence that Zimmerman attacked first and cannot contradict Zimmerman's version of what happened only increases his chances of getting off. It's sad that the immense support that Martin has received in the end might help Zimmerman, because I believe the main reason why he was charged with murder 2 was to appease the public.
 

shawkins

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I But why should I side with one over the other just because one is dead? Death shows nothing besides the result of the event, not how it played out. Delving into both backgrounds, as I've said numerous times and which is very hard to do because Martin's parents have deleted all social accounts that would lead to any unpainted traits and the true mentality of their son--which is hard to get a picture of seeing as he was seventeen and at that age, there isn't much hard history to look up--is the only way to understand.

I'm sincerely curious - what sort of information might you have hoped to get from Facebook (or whatever) that would affect your opinion of the case? Could you provide a purely hypothetical for-instance?
 

Kaiser-Kun

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Did Zimmerman knew about Martin's historial before he decided to go after him? Because otherwise, all the people bringing it up are just saying people with a history like Martin's deserve to die.
 

JWGriebel

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I'm sincerely curious - what sort of information might you have hoped to get from Facebook (or whatever) that would affect your opinion of the case? Could you provide a purely hypothetical for-instance?

Did Zimmerman knew about Martin's historial before he decided to go after him? Because otherwise, all the people bringing it up are just saying people with a history like Martin's deserve to die.


Since I can answer both with the same words, I'll just do so. It isn't whether or not Martin's past is a green light for what happened (said it so many times I'm tired of having to say it--never said he deserved to die, but that seems to by the popular response or counter-argument), it is that his personal life, which his family has not given much insight into and which, from what little has been gathered, has been much different than they have claimed, can help figure out if Martin did or did not provoke. Yes, personalities play a big role in this case, because knowing his personality and the way he acted when not around his parents can show if he was randomly shot or if he was the aggressor and the victim of chance--that the man he attacked for whatever reason happened to be armed.
 
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JWGriebel

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I did, but I don't see how that answers my question at all.

And my point was that people who are involved in illegal activities can be claimed to have a tendency toward paranoia (and just as people have said Zimmerman's paranoia could lead to violence, so could it be said in this case as well), hence why I said "can" meaning that the defense "could" say something along those lines. I never said that I believed Martin was a violent drug-addict who attacked Zimmerman. What I believe, as I have stated numerous times, is that there is no way of knowing.

Not saying this is how it is used, but this is one of the effects of pot linked with paranoia:

http://web4health.info/it/add-cannabis-paranoia.htm

And here's a bit from TIME:

http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/06/why-pot-smokers-are-paranoid/


Again, before I have five people quoting and arguing further, I was suggesting what is said in my self-quote above, not that Martin was a hardcore druggie or anything that will eventually be derived from my statements in a matter of time.
 

Lyv

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. But, I'll post some of the articles up this afternoon when I have time to go through my history, seeing as there are dozens more each day.

Wow, dozens more each day! Since it's afternoon, I will check back periodically to see a sample of these hundreds of articles in the mainstream media you claim slander George Zimmerman. And what about those sites you posted, one that made a case for Trayvon Martim being a drug dealer and one that presented him as the attacker. Did they also post articles slandering George Zimmerman, as you claim dozens of media outlets do daily?
 

kuwisdelu

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I'd say when a big guy in a car is following you around your neighborhood at night, you have a damn good reason to be paranoid, whether you'd ever smoked pot or not. These are all just red herrings and victim blaming.
 

Mharvey

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I just wanna say, we've gone from Zimmerman, to defense lawyers and the general legal profession... to Batman and Marijuana.

I have to say, I'm proud of you guys. ;)

To add something relevant, everyone's entitled to a good defense. I hate Zimmerman as much as the next guy, but given that's he's already been shot, stabbed, hung, strangled, bludgeoned and electricuted in the court of public opinion, a half-decent lawyer is the least he deserves*

*I hate saying Zimmerman deserves anything other than the aforementioned physical abuse, but fair is fair.
 

nighttimer

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I agree with the bold part. After that, not so much. Haven't you ever heard that the people you choose to surround yourself with shows a lot about your character? There are a lot of kids who go through school without getting themselves in trouble. If this was the kind of kid who had been shot, the case would be much different.

Different how? Different if he had been White with red hair and freckles and his name was Opie Taylor or Richie Cunningham? Does that make it different?

It's not only choirboys and high school cheerleaders who get shot and killed. Sometimes its typical kids who say and do typical kids things like curse, talk shit, act a little goofy and irresponsible and leave a cyber-fingerprint so every little amateur sleuth can pour over and try to predict the future.

Trayvon was a typical teenager, but "typical" means different things in different parts of America. What is considered a typical teenager in Chicago or Los Angeles may not be the same for Ames, Iowa. In some parts of America, Trayvon might look strange, even threatening, where in other neighborhoods you can look out your window and see a thousand Trayvons walking by and never bat an eyelash.

Trayvon Martin liked girls, hated high school and was planning for college.


He loved rap music and enjoyed cracking jokes on Twitter about street culture.


The 17-year-old high school junior known as “Slimm” tweeted thousands of times over a period of months. His last 140-character message came just two days before he was gunned down in a gated townhouse community in Sanford.



But in the racially divisive media hype that has followed the teenager’s controversial killing, pages of nonsensical Twitter updates written back when Trayvon’s biggest concerns were getting a call back from a girl are now being examined and scrutinized by bloggers around the nation.


Critics call attention to his tattoos, an empty marijuana bag found in his school book bag, and a photo that purports to show him with gold teeth — “grills,” in hip-hop parlance — to show that he had a violent nature and that his family deliberately tried to keep this image from the public. His email accounts were hacked by white supremacists and his tweets were exposed by the conservative website The Daily Caller.

But friends say Trayvon wasn’t into violence.

“When I heard about the tragedy and the initial story, I knew it wasn’t true,” said Ricaysha Milton, 17, who knew Trayvon from Carol City High School, and corresponded with him over Twitter. “Trayvon is the ‘walk away’ type of guy. He’d rather walk away than fight.’’
Even if Trayvon Martin had gang tats and gold fronts (he 'didn't) and wore his pants hanging off his skinny butt, because that offends or confuses or intimidates or frightens some people, it doesn't make him a less sympathetic, or legitimate victim.

At least it doesn't for me. You may have a different opinion.

JWGriebel said:
I went to the length of looking up a link, then posting said link. The link had nothing to do with his color. It took excerpts from his life and painted them, just as has been done with Zimmerman. I don't believe I ever pitted race against race in this issue.

Maybe you're too close to your own situation to realize you have done exactly that and I'm not the only one who's questioned your motivations on that score.

Writers often aren't fully cognizant of the weight of their words because they are busy creating them. Once they are set free and wander off into the world, those words are not always received as we might have hoped they would.

JWGriebel said:
Actually, they have a lot to do with the issue at hand. They get closer to showing his mentality, which could have meant proving if he was the sort of kid who would attack first, or would need provocation and thus be defending himself. If you consider basic background information and its use slime, well, I don't know what to say to that. As I've stated numerous times before, and you have ignored numerous times, just as Zimmerman knew nothing about Martin, Martin knew nothing about Zimmerman. Martin would not have known Zimmerman had a gun anymore than Zimmerman would have known Martin was on suspension for whatever reason. Thus, the case goes deeper than the surface. If they had known one another beforehand, it would be very, very easy to call. Since they didn't, it's not.

I can understand your desire to want George Zimmerman to be treated fairly and not be demonized by the media or Trayvon's supporters. However, you have pointedly ignored Zimmerman's previous criminal acts while suggesting his victim who had no criminal record, might have been have had an inclination toward violence that led him to confront and attack Zimmerman thereby giving him a reason to fire on the unarmed teen to save his own life.

Your expressed desire for even-handed treatment of George Zimmerman does not extend to Trayvon Martin. You have seized upon the thinnest of threads and attempted to tie a noose around him as a potential threat. Those that knew him do not seem to acknowledge that Trayvon ever existed. They describe a boy that wasn't confrontational or violent.

Zimmerman has his defenders who say he doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Why are they more credible than Trayvon's defenders?

JWGriebel said:
I've noticed your "go-to" thing, about halfway through each argument, is to pit black against white, even though Zimmerman his Hispanic and Jewish. Thus, I won't dignify this with a response. And of course, you will claim that wasn't your purpose and that I'm a racist somehow, but :shrug:

I don't believe I've call you any sort of racist. I just said you seemed to be linking to some sketchy websites with some pretty shitty content. I haven't been the only one to come to that conclusion either.

It isn't that I see everything through the prism of racism. I enjoy sunrises, kittens and a well-turned leg as much as the next guy and race doesn't have to do a thing with it. I never say, "Awww...what a cute kitty. But you'd be cuter if you were a black kitten instead of a white one."

It doesn't embarrass me to point out racism where racism is present. I don't need the media or the president and certainly not you or anyone here to confirm and co-sign it. I go by what I know and whether if it is popular or even accepted by others never enters the equation. I'm faithful to my own truth.

I know both American history and the American mind and a lot of Americans would dearly love to forget their history. They would like to forget about the Middle Passage, slave auctions, plantations, Dred Scott, Jim Crow, sundown towns, segregation, the Imperial Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the White Citizens Council, the Port Chicago mutiny, Rosewood, lynching, Emmett Till, Little Rock, "Bombingham and four little church girls," Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner, Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King assassinated, Jackson State, COINTELPRO, Patrick Dorsimond, Eleanor Bumphers, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, Rodney King, James Byrd III, Sean Bell, Oscar Grant and now Trayvon Martin.

It's not so much that I always see racism as much as I'm finely attuned to racism.

Maybe I am hyper-sensitive to racism, but if I am, it's not as though I don't have reasons to be. It can be dangerous to be Black and oblivious to how racism still exists.

Or maybe you're just hyper-numb to racism. It's so far off your radar it's doesn't even raise a blip.

Then again, I don't know you and you certainly don't know me either. Not anymore than George Zimmerman knew Trayvon Martin. That didn't deter him from gunning him down though.

JWGriebel said:
That kind of argument wouldn't hold up in the court of law, so "you're a monster for looking into this case" doesn't decide my mind for me.

This is not a court of law and you're associating me with things I have never said and never accused you of. I have no interest in trying to decide your mind one way or the other any more than I need to defend or explain something I never said.
 

FalconMage

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This self-appointed watch captain sounds a thousand times as suspect as Trayvon, driving around at night looking for people to phone the cops on. How many times did he before, like forty? He was probably just itching for an excuse to unload that weapon.

Wait a bit. Phoning the cops, that's what a neighborhood watch does. I do NOT want to defend George Zimmerman, not in the least. I think the guy is (at best) a moron. I want him convicted of SOME felony so that his gun isn't (legally) an option for him any longer.

But neighborhood watches are sort of like designated witnesses. Now that phones they can carry with them are an option, calling the police is exactly the RIGHT answer. Not part of the problem.
 

Seraph

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Wait a bit. Phoning the cops, that's what a neighborhood watch does. I do NOT want to defend George Zimmerman, not in the least. I think the guy is (at best) a moron. I want him convicted of SOME felony so that his gun isn't (legally) an option for him any longer.

But neighborhood watches are sort of like designated witnesses. Now that phones they can carry with them are an option, calling the police is exactly the RIGHT answer. Not part of the problem.

You're very wrong if you think any of the calls, Trayvon's included, were merited. None resulted in arrests. Phoning the cops is only right when there's a good reason to phone them. The guy was paranoid, looking for any excuse, grasping at straws, a trigger happy vigilante. There's an old lady walking down the street outside my window right now. Personally, I think she's sketchy. By yours and Zimmerman's logic I should phone the cops right now.
 

rugcat

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You're very wrong if you think any of the calls, Trayvon's included, were merited. None resulted in arrests. Phoning the cops is only right when there's a good reason to phone them.
Every cop is familiar with police wannabes who are constantly reporting "suspicious" persons. It's a royal pain in the ass.