Songwriter vs. musician

[maestrowork]

Do you need to be a good musician to be a good songwriter?

I'm not talking about musicality, talent and all that -- Personally I think it's a must that a person understands music or music theories or the fundamentals much like a writer must understand grammar and other basic skills (such as storytelling, plot, etc.): rhyming, cadence, song structures, motives, progressions, etc. -- all of that can be learned.

But what about how to put everything together? Do you need to be someone like Mozart who could hear all the different instruments in his head? Do you need to be able to play well? Or do you just need to have a great musical intuition?

Many songwriters are either guitarists or pianists. Is it important that they can play at least one instrument and play it well? I can play keyboard and some guitar but I'm not "professional." I wouldn't pay me to be in a band or perform live. But with software, I can fake it enough that it sounds like I can actually play.

I have heard great songs with just a simple guitar or piano backing track. I've also heard bad songs with a full orchestration or band. I think some people can play well but they're not really good in writing songs... but can the opposite be true, that you have to be good at playing an instrument if you want to succeed in songwriting? Or is music production/arrangement a different thing than songwriting.

I often marvel at what a musician can do, and how an arranger/producer can turn a basic track of melody into an incredible song. I often wonder, though, where does songwriting end and "production" begin? Do I need to know all that to become a good songwriter? Where is that line?

[KTC]

I've written lyrics a few times now. I have great musical appreciation and I played the guitar for years, but I couldn't even begin to write music. My guitar playing ability, even after years of childhood lessons, falls somewhere just above beginner. I probably shouldn't even attempt lyrics. When you say songwriter, are you speaking only of those who write the music or are you including lyricists?

[rugcat]

I think songwriting is pretty much separate from playing ability. You need some basic knowledge of music, esp if you're writing anything but straight rock, but you don't need to be a great instrumentalist or have a deep knowledge of musical theory.

I consider myself an average player, but an excellent songwriter. The other guitar player in my band seldom writes songs and they're not that good when he does, but he can play rings around me.

But I don't know anyone who writes songs who can't play at least to some extent. A lot of it has to do with matching lyrics to melodies, or emphasizing a line with a timely chord change, or coming up with a great hook, and I think it's hard to do that if you don't play at all.

[maestrowork]

I've written lyrics a few times now. I have great musical appreciation and I played the guitar for years, but I couldn't even begin to write music. My guitar playing ability, even after years of childhood lessons, falls somewhere just above beginner. I probably shouldn't even attempt lyrics. When you say songwriter, are you speaking only of those who write the music or are you including lyricists?

Good question. When I talked about songwriters I guess I was talking about both, or at least the composer. For lyricists only, I think the skills/talent set are different. Lyricists are more about words -- great lyricists tend to be poets. Sure, the better they are musically (with a good ear) the better they are, I think, to fit words into a melody or to come up with the right cadence to allow the composer to work the magic.

But for the sake of songwriting vs. musician (one who plays), I'd say "lyricists" would fall under something else. Many composers can't write lyrics, or vice versa -- so the talent and skills certainly don't necessarily overlap.

[bluntforcetrauma]

Some have naturtal talent others are trained.

[maestrowork]

Some have naturtal talent others are trained.

But am I doomed as a songwriter if I can't play like Jimmy Hendrix? Or why can't someone who can work wonders with the guitar, for example, come up with a decent melody? Sometimes it just seems really weird to me -- that a guitar genius couldn't come up with a simple song that soars.

[KTC]

My brother is a great musician. He's a singer in a band and plays guitar as well. They really rock. I love going to his gigs. I always ask, "Why don't you guys do some original stuff? You're great!" He always says he's the worst musician in the history of music. He can't write music. He sure can wail on the guitar though.

[III]

I think it depends on the type of music, to a large degree. Take U2 for example, especially the Edge. His playing and writing are both very simplistic but he has such a great intuition for how to construct a song with texture and emotion. Or take the Ramones - 3 power chords and largely unintelligible lyrics, but you'd be hard pressed to find a catchier song than Blitzkreig Bop.

But then you look at the opposite end of the spectrum - a band like Dream Theater where each member is a mathematical genius, trained at the finest music schools, completely dedicated to their craft, making the most complex music in the world.

Sorry, I think I'm straying from your original question. I don't think you need to be able to play an instrument to write excellent lyrics and melodies, but you'll definitely need the help of a band or (for the first time in history) music software to turn your idea into a full-blown song. I also think there are avenues of writing which can only be explored through playing. But anyone can create a basic song, imo.

[Inky]

A friend of mine is a musician, the other, a poet. The musician puts melody to Gretta's poems, and...well...an amazing thing happens...

Another sample is to listen to folk music and/or Loreena McKennitt. If you simply read her lyrics, they read like poetry...add the numerous medieval instruments, and you've an awesome blend of perfect harmony.

But it's my own opinion. To me, the best songs are those that are truly a story, not just some crap that rhymes and/or pulled from a thesaurus. You can read the lyrics, without the melody, and be moved...the kind of stuff that makes you listen closely. Linkin Park and Staind have accomplished this rather well.

[benbradley]

Do you need to be a good musician to be a good songwriter?
No! Listen to Bob Dylan's early recordings. You might even want to transcribe a few songs. I think a classic is "The Times, They Are A'Changin'." I transcribed that a few years ago, and wow, what a test of my skills to accurately reproduce his mistakes! Musically and performance-wise, it's a bit bizarre that that song became a hit. His singing is of course off (though that's admittedly part of his style, kind of a separate topic), he can barely play chords on the guitar, and some measures have extra beats in them (ISTR something like an extra three beats at the end of every line)... Few musicians would ever believe from what I just described that the song could become a classic hit.

For a more rock-oriented example from the same decade, there's "Louie, Louie," by the Kingsmen. It's got sloppy musicianship, you can't really understand what the singer is saying, and there's a point in the song - the drummer accidentally drops a drumstick and yells out the F word. A DJ once pointed this out, and if you listen carefully you can hear the word uttered (it's in between the lines the lead singer sings) when they play it on the radio. Yet it was a huge hit, the recording made the song famous, and it was covered by many other performers.

Leonard Cohen is another example. He's a strange character, at least in my mind. I love some of his songs, but I can't stand to hear him sing. I wonder about those who buy his records and go to his concerts.
I'm not talking about musicality, talent and all that -- Personally I think it's a must that a person understands music or music theories or the fundamentals much like a writer must understand grammar and other basic skills (such as storytelling, plot, etc.): rhyming, cadence, song structures, motives, progressions, etc. -- all of that can be learned.

But what about how to put everything together? Do you need to be someone like Mozart who could hear all the different instruments in his head? Do you need to be able to play well?
I don't think playing WELL is a prerequisite, but of course it helps.
Or do you just need to have a great musical intuition?
I like the "intuition" part - I think one can learn a lot intuitively/subconsciously about music by listening, sitting down with an instrument and learning songs off the radio. At least that's what I did starting at age 10 or 12 or so. Even if I rarely practiced scales, I did learn them, and chord patterns and such, and a little reading and stuff taught me the note and chord names, keys, and the "keyless" roman-numeral chord notation as in I I I, IV IV, V V V, IV IV,...

Many songwriters are either guitarists or pianists. Is it important that they can play at least one instrument and play it well? I can play keyboard and some guitar but I'm not "professional." I wouldn't pay me to be in a band or perform live. But with software, I can fake it enough that it sounds like I can actually play.

I have heard great songs with just a simple guitar or piano backing track. I've also heard bad songs with a full orchestration or band. I think some people can play well but they're not really good in writing songs... but can the opposite be true, that you have to be good at playing an instrument if you want to succeed in songwriting? Or is music production/arrangement a different thing than songwriting.
I think they're pretty strongly related, yet there are the examples I've already given. But perhaps it's like the announcement I heard the high school about how you hear in the news about a high school dropout who starts a business and becomes a millionaire - "the reason you hear about them is because they're RARE. Stay in school, get your high school diplomaa, bla bla bla..."

I often marvel at what a musician can do, and how an arranger/producer can turn a basic track of melody into an incredible song. I often wonder, though, where does songwriting end and "production" begin?
From what I understand, the basic beat (the time signature), the lyrics, melody and usually-but-not-always the chords are "the song," and anything else you add, harmonies, do-wop-wop's, more instruments and orchestration, are all "production."

I suppose production in pop music is the equivalent of orchestration in classical or, uh, orchestrated music.
But am I doomed as a songwriter if I can't play like Jimmy Hendrix?
Of course you can't play like Jimi Hendrix! You can't even spell his name! :D
Or why can't someone who can work wonders with the guitar, for example, come up with a decent melody? Sometimes it just seems really weird to me -- that a guitar genius couldn't come up with a simple song that soars.
I dunno - sometimes people just lack creativity, but I think part of could be the way they learned. People who have had formal lessons may have only learned how to accurately, or even "with feeling" reproduce the music that others have written. Classical music is of course the "classic" example of this, but it can happen with musicians playing more modern music. Perhaps that's all some people want to do - "play the guitar."

But certainly many people who learn an instrument will eventually start making up their own melodies and chord progressions and such. One generally doesn't learn this in a formal context, but a situation that encourages it is "jam sessions" where several musicians start off with something like the 12-bar blues thing and then play off each other musically.

I've written songs where I've done the lyrics and the melody, and I've written melodies to others' lyrics. Writing the lyrics is definitely harder for me, but I think I may be unusual in that.

It seems there are a lot of "wanabee" songwriters have no musical experience - they write the lyrics, and in an effort to get rich and famous get sucked into these "songmill" scams where they pay good money to have their lyrics put to a (generally pre-written) melody and recorded (in a marathon session with dozens of other such songs from other wanabee songwriters). IMHO, these aren't quite songwriters.

But the lyrics seems to be where "professional" songwriters put much of their time and energy - thinking up hooks, reewriting, using the right words to get the ideas across in the most catchy way.

[bluntforcetrauma]

But am I doomed as a songwriter if I can't play like Jimmy Hendrix? Or why can't someone who can work wonders with the guitar, for example, come up with a decent melody? Sometimes it just seems really weird to me -- that a guitar genius couldn't come up with a simple song that soars.

'The Rose' is a three chord hymn. I wouldn't call the composer doomed. 'Happy Birthday' is simple, yet the most played song ever. Simplicity is beauty.

[JRH]

It' important to remember that writing lyrics, writing music, (Composing), Arranging/Producing, and Performing are all separate skills which each require different elements of craftsmanship in order to do successfully.

Writing good lyrics requires a knowledge and understanding both of poetic craftsmanship and the difference in purpose between writing Poetry and writing Lyrics.

Composition doesn't necessarily require extensive understanding of music theory, but it does require sufficient skills to put together a melody line and work out the basic chording necessary to support it.

Arranging/Producing does require greater understanding of theory, and an ear capable of visuallizing how different instrumental sounds can work together to maximize the effectiveness of that melody line and chording.

Performing is largely a physical skill, but partially an empathetic ability to project and interpret the elements of a song so as to ensure maximum communication with the audiance

Few can do all of them with equal facility but ALL must work together to produce the final product, (a song) and the degree to which they do so determines the overall quality of the piece, (but not necessarily it's success as that is also dependent on Public Taste).

It simplifies things, if one can do all elements, at least well enough to get by, but the very fact that most can't usually results in the necessity of collaboration between Lyricist, Composer, Arranger/Producer, and Musicians, (including singers because they represent a different type of instrument), and successful collaboration depends on compatibiliity in their overall view of what they want to accomplish and communication between them,

No one HAS to do it all, but the more one can do and the extent to which each understands the other elements greatly increases the possibility of success.

Think about it.

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[maestrowork]

Great comments, Jim.

My problem is I do want to do them all, but I also know I'm deficient in some areas. Some are just a matter of getting the right training and practice, and the others... I just know I have no talent. I don't think I can every produce, and I'll gladly leave it to the professional producers and sound mixers. I'm always amazed by how they can turn something into a awesome sounding track, and I'd gladly pay for studio time just to get that sound.

As far as the actual songwriting is concerned, I think I have a knack for writing the music. I'm now learning a lot on arrangement as well, and I find that I'm actually pretty good at it, given the right tools (since I can't really play anything except the keyboard). But I know what sounds good together. I used to think writing lyrics is my weakness, but after writing a few on my own, I realize I'm okay. I would, however, love to work with a true lyricist. I'm often amazed by the lyrics by Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen. And then you have Eric Clapton who can make you weep with his guitar.

But you're right, very few musicans/songwriters can do it all. We need to know our weaknesses and work with others to complement us. Part of the trial and error of being a musician, for me, is to try to do it all. And I'm beginning to realize that what I really want is a great team of collaborators. I've been trying to find a good lyricist who would be willing to work with me for years.

[NatJM]

You can be a great songwriter without being a good musician, but if you can do both, you have more chances to succeed. However, being a virtuoso on your instrument isn't really what it's about for a songwriter; being good can help a songwriter move forward (by being able to record a good demo), but being the best isn't necessary.

Other skills as useful as playing an instrument include singing, recording, mixing, producing, networking, and ability to collaborate..

Nowadays, it's easy for people to set themselves up a home studio (yep, I include myself in this). This leads to a very modern problem for songwriters/musicians/producers, which is that they end up being jacks of all trades and master of none; this is why I find it is important to set your priorities right and stick to them.

If you want to be a songwriter, you only need to develop basic singing, playing, recording and mixing skills. However, if you aim for a job as a producer, you need to be much more advanced in your knowledge of recording and mixing. An artist would obviously work on singing skills, as well as dancing and general performance skills, which aren't needed for a musician just willing to record a demo to pitch to someone else.

The only skills you need to develop in the same way across the board are networking and ability to work with others.

[maestrowork]

There's a studio here that is making quite a splash in the local music scene. They offer state of the art production as well as song arrangement services. Basically, it frees the songwriters or singers from having to do everything, and helps them focus more on the songwriting and performance. The end results, as I've heard, are very professional sounding.

I think part of what I'm going through is to find out what I'm really good at and hoping to find collaborators who could complement my talent and skills. And the rest, I know I can depend on home studio software or a professional recording studio to complete the circle. But the learning part is what's exciting me right now.

It's kind of like writing, actually. I know I can probably do everything -- from writing the damn book to producing it, but do I want to? I'd just end up being a Jack of all trade but a master of none. So I decided I would simply focus on the writing itself and let skilled people worry about the rest. The same is happening here as well. I don't aspire to become a music producer or even a lyricist. I'm more of a melodist, actually.

[ChunkyC]

Great discussion. :)

I fall into the "good player but mediocre songwriter" category. In every band I was ever in, I rarely came up with original songs on my own. Most often I would contribute something like the chord pattern for a bridge, that sort of thing. One area I was rather good at was arranging vocal harmonies. In the last band I was in, for example, all four of us were strong singers. The other guys had trouble picking out the harmonies, probably because they gravitated toward the lead vocal. But because I grew up singing in choirs before I got into bands, three and four part harmonies were second nature to me. So I would be the one to dissect the vocals and teach the others their parts.

I guess the point there is to reinforce what has been said about all the various elements that go into creating the finished product. It's exceedingly rare to find them all in one person. Unless you happen to be someone like Lenny Kravitz who writes his tunes, then plays every instrument and sings all the vocals when he records.

[maestrowork]

I want to start a band. I even have a named picked out already.

[ChunkyC]

I get to be Big Willie. You can be one of the twins.

Oh, right ... that's my fantasy band name. :D