Tate Publishing

This is an old blog post on Lee Goldberg's site, but Leon has commented here as well with some more details on his book sales:
http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2006/03/tit_for_tate.html

Momento Mori said:

Either he sold 4,900 books in stores during the early part of 2005 (which is possible), or those 4,900 sales came via the Tate website or his own website (which is again possible, but without a platform to make people go to those sites, I'd be interested to know how it was done). I'm definitely having problems understanding how he made the sales to make back the fee, let alone earn royalties on top of that without a considerable store presence.

I'm not knocking the fact that 90 sales have been achieved, but in publishing terms that isn't a significant volume. In fact, isn't it estimated that most PA authors end up making around 100 sales?

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You are a little confused. He has two books: One released in early 2005, one released in the last month or two. It was his latest book that has the 90 sales. I found no sales of the book released in 2005, but the sales information only gave figures for 2006 and 2007.

I think it entirely possible that he sold 5000+ copies in 2005 if the book had wide distribution to Christian book stores.

First of all, AW is not a court of law. It is a place where writers come to share ideas and opinions

Your point is?

Secondly, "vanity press" is a standard industry term that does not need definition to explicitly exclude "partnership publishing", which is not. Vanity press means that the author has paid to have the book published. You paid to have the book published, so by definition, Tate is a vanity press, regardless of the nuance you want to put on it.

Tate has one element of a vanity press. What I paid would never put the book in print. I have no expertise in the process. So that money wouldn’t do me any good all by myself.

Thirdly, NO ONE on this thread has called Tate a "scam".

I never said that anyone did. I stated that if someone did …….my idea and opinion that it wouldn’t be right.

JulieB.

Yes I have made my investment back.

I grew tried of waiting for someone to agree with me that I thought it was a good book to publish and please send me a contract and an advance. Personal choice here. I had 28 firms ask for the manuscript. Three replied back, the others haven’t.


Japan:
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/gue...KEYWORD=just+when+you+think+you+are+all+alone


Germany:
http://www.buch.de/shop/bde_homesta...SBN1-933148-36-5/ID6114128.html?jumpId=359249

I own the rights to the book. Yes Tate is responsible for my books being there, they’re the publisher.

I’m not aware of any court cases involving Tate publishing.

Yes I rec’d royalties on all book sold. My reports indicate that the amount was base on price of sale.

As to the amount of books sold. Respectfully that is not anything that will help an author chose a publisher. I would never say that Tate will be a success for you and your book. I will say that Tate has been a good choice for me personally.

The advantage of an author choosing any publisher, any form of publishing is that it’s their choice. Whether there are POD’s, e-books, subsidy, Vanity or what ever I think that is a personal thing. It’s more of a pros and cons deal then a right or wrong deal. We all have opinions on this don’t we?
As to buying books, the remark is that isn’t a terrible thing but you have to pay for them no matter what.
Copies of my book are available thru my web page and at all my seminars.

Victoria, sorry if you think my posts are a veiled threat? I’m sharing my ideas and opinions.
As your remark………We don't share their names or contact information, and we don't provide copies of the documentation they send us except to law enforcement officials. In response to requests for information, we DO clearly describe the information and documentation we have on hand. Any statements we make about a publisher, literary agent, or anyone else is either directly supported by documentation in our possession, or identified as opinion.
You never responded to me.
As to your remark ……. Keeping my contact with Mr. Mentzer in email also allowed me to cc Ryan Tate to keep him in the loop--as I explained in my response.
Are you saying that you were sharing information with Mr. Tate about my requests? Please explain this?

Leon Mentzer

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

First of all, AW is not a court of law. It is a place where writers come to share ideas and opinions

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Your point is?

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My point is that quibbling over exact legal wording has no place here. This is a writer's forum for exchanging ideas and opinions, not a court of law. Many of the opinions here are that it is better to not publish with a vanity publisher like Tate. This is perfectly legitimate opinion to hold and share.

Secondly, "vanity press" is a standard industry term that does not need definition to explicitly exclude "partnership publishing", which is not. Vanity press means that the author has paid to have the book published. You paid to have the book published, so by definition, Tate is a vanity press, regardless of the nuance you want to put on it.

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Tate has one element of a vanity press. What I paid would never put the book in print. I have no expertise in the process. So that money wouldn’t do me any good all by myself.

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Actually, you can put a book in print with iUniverse (their top package) for far less. http://www.iuniverse.com/packages/

Thirdly, NO ONE on this thread has called Tate a "scam".

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I never said that anyone did. I stated that if someone did …….my idea and opinion that it wouldn’t be right.

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But since you acknowledge that no one did, why did you make the statement? The implication (and veiled threat) was quite clear.

Hey, you guys should probably take it easy on Leon because I don't think he's the problem here. Yes, he piped in from nowhere (always a red flag) to give us his positive experience with Tate, but a couple of the questions/comments directed at him seemed borderline accusatory. I don't think we're entitled to know the financial details of how he's done with Tate, etc. I don't think we need to infer that he may have reached the 5000 break-even point by buying a bunch of his own books. That's none of our business, really. I guess the only proof I need that Leon's genuinely satisfied with Tate is that he published a second book with them and it's doing better than the first. Okay, sounds like we can chalk one up for Tate. With that said, I don't think we can know how many more we can chalk up against Tate.

I'm no fan of vanity publishers because I think they pretty much prey on inexperienced writers with unrealistic expectations. Thing is, their business model does work for a small minority of writers - that is, those with a platform, maybe even a distribution outlet, and the energy to actively market their works. Granted, that's a very small minority.

Anyway, I don't know Leon and I appreciate him stopping by, but it just seems like the spirit of this thread has gone awry. Hey, that rhymes. Also, I'm in no way defending vanity presses, either....just trying to give an objective opinion.

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

Tate has one element of a vanity press. What I paid would never put the book in print. I have no expertise in the process. So that money wouldn’t do me any good all by myself.

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You can get your book in print for roughly ten dollars depending on the size of the book.

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

Thirdly, NO ONE on this thread has called Tate a "scam".

I never said that anyone did. I stated that if someone did …….my idea and opinion that it wouldn’t be right.

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Tate is a scam. There, I said it, now you can resume veiled threats of lawsuits knowing at least one person has said it.

I'll stand by it too. I went to the website and followed their link for authors and didn't see a single word about payment, only a bunch of words on how they are great choice to publish my book. The only reference to payment was on a different page (publishing services) and not only buried at the bottom but obfuscated as 'author investments'.

They hide that they charge, and they charge enough to make money without selling any books. Sounds like a scam. At least reputable vanity presses are up front about the fees.

III said:

I wonder if author purchases are included in the 5,000 total.

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As I noted in a previous post--yes, they are. Per Tate's contract, authors can buy their own books at a 60% discount, and their purchases count toward the 5,000 total.

Buying 5,000 copies of a book priced at $16.95 at a 60% discount would cost $33,900--a substantial outlay for an author and a large chunk of income for Tate, which wouldn't lose much by then refunding the author's $4,000 payment.

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

As to your remark ……. Keeping my contact with Mr. Mentzer in email also allowed me to cc Ryan Tate to keep him in the loop--as I explained in my response. Are you saying that you were sharing information with Mr. Tate about my requests? Please explain this?

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In my correspondence with Ryan Tate, he told me that he'd ask some Tate authors to write to me about their experiences. One of the names he mentioned was yours. When you subsequently contacted me asking "how can I help you," I assumed you were getting in touch as a result of a suggestion from him. I let you know that I preferred to correspond via email, which not only allowed me to document everything, but to cc Mr. Tate as I promised him I would. If you keep your emails, you can look this up. The date of my email is 10/1/05. It was sent from my [email protected] address.

Checking back through my records, I see that indeed I never responded to the detailed account you sent me of your experiences with Tate. For that I sincerely apologize. I have an enormous email load with Writer Beware, and now and then something falls through the cracks. Again, I'm sorry, and I hope you'll accept this very belated "thank you" for the information you provided.

Based on my contacts with the people at Tate, I don't believe they are ill-intentioned. However, Tate's website is misleading in that it encourages writers to assume Tate is a "traditional" publisher, and I wasn't convinced by Tate's attempts to explain why it isn't more straightforward about its fees.

- Victoria

Victoria, Thank you. I have been reading and benefiting from your web-site and postings for years. As well as Ann's ( who my wife has almost if not all of her books.) It's indeed a good day when we can share ideas and opinions. However our e-mails can be a little short on personality. At the end of this thread I agree that there 're well defined views & opinions.
If we came to an agreement what would that say about independent thought?

Blessing to you all and thank you for the chat.

Leon Mentzer

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

• Journey to Justice By Johnnie Cochran, Ballantine paid a reported $3.5 million
• Behind The oval Office by Dick Morris, Random House paid an estimated $2.5 million
• Leading with my chin by Jay Leno, Harper Collins paid a reported $4 million.

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Reported by who?

Those high-dollar celebrity books? Don't think that the authors got those advances in the form of checks.

Those dollar figures assume that every single escalator clause kicks in. For example, an escalator may say, "Book is a #1 New York Times Best Seller: $50,000." Sure, you can claim that $50,000 when you're bragging about how big an advance you got, but you won't see a dime of it unless and until the conditions set for the escalator occur. Which may never happen.

Monica Lewinsky's book, for example, had a reported $600,000 advance, and it tanked. But Monica's actual advance was far, far lower than that. Like low-five-figures. None of the escalators clicked in.

Oh -- and authors don't return advances. The only time that happens is when the author never gets around to turning in the book.

--The Wall Street Journal, May 29, 1997.

Leon Mentzer

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

--The Wall Street Journal, May 29, 1997.

Leon Mentzer

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Did you get your figures from this site (as opposed to the WSJ itself, which is the primary source)?
http://www.parapublishing.com/sites/para/resources/statistics.cfm

Given that it's a site promoting self-publishing, I'd want to see the actual WSJ article in context, but that's just me.

Havlen:
You are a little confused. He has two books: One released in early 2005, one released in the last month or two. It was his latest book that has the 90 sales. I found no sales of the book released in 2005, but the sales information only gave figures for 2006 and 2007.

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Ah - I see. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I was getting confused because of the figures for the second book.

I think the point here is that Leon seems to have shifted position from:

The problem is that there is another type of publishing called partnership publishing. While it acts similar to self-publish or subsidy-publish, it is not the same.

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to

Tate has one element of a vanity press. What I paid would never put the book in print. I have no expertise in the process. So that money wouldn’t do me any good all by myself.

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which is heartening. If he's happy with his decision (and I'm not casting doubt on that), then so be it. But my concerns about Tate still stand.

rwam:
I'm no fan of vanity publishers because I think they pretty much prey on inexperienced writers with unrealistic expectations. Thing is, their business model does work for a small minority of writers - that is, those with a platform, maybe even a distribution outlet, and the energy to actively market their works. Granted, that's a very small minority.

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I think though that writers with a platform are probably better off going to Lulu or another POD route that's up front about what it does and doesn't charge you $4,000 right off the bat. As a number of other posters have pointed out, Tate isn't exactly up front about wanting your cash when it says it wants to give your manuscript the chance it deserves.

Some of the comments on Lee Goldberg's blog about Tate are pretty heartbreaking - it's clear that there are authors out there who went with Tate because their expectations hadn't been managed.

MM

Goldberg's posting about Tate is here:
http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2006/03/tit_for_tate.html

Correspondence with Tate

As Chair of Writer Beware, I was the lead contact Tate wrote to when they attempted to convince Wriiter Beware that they did not deserve the term "vanity press" or "subsidy press." (I don't believe they ever used the term "partnership publishing.") They did indeed invite Victoria and me to visit their offices. They were courteous in their letters, and they really, really wanted Writer Beware's approval of their operation. Failing that, they wanted us to remove them from our "thumbs down" list.

We exchanged emails for a week or two, all very polite, but when, after some initial foot-shuffling and evasion, Tate finally did confirm that they charge authors 4000 bucks to publish with them, there really wasn't any point in continuing, and I believe we both knew it. I pointed out to Mr. Tate that this amount is not mentioned on their website, and that not revealing this fee upfront to prospective authors put them in the "questionable" practices column of Writer Beware's database. That's when the correspondence ended. It was clear that Tate intended to keep on charging their fees, and not revealing them openly on their website.

Why should Vic and I have visited them under those circumstances? We'd reached an impasse, and it would have been pointless to continue. All the hospitality and cups of tea in their office in the world wouldn't change the facts of the case.

Writer Beware has heard the term "co-op" publishing, "joint venture publishing," "joint risk publishing," for years. Calling it "partnership publishing" doesn't change what it is. In the legal definition of vanity/subsidy publishing, these terms have no valid separate distinction that I've been able to discover. And in our experience, a publishing operation like Tate makes the vast majority of their income from the fees charged to authors, and from authors buying their own books. Only a very small percentage comes from sales to the reading public.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and the income (read, profit) comes from the authors...well, my friends, that's a vanity/subsidy press, and all the semantic games in the universe won't change that.

I'm glad some folks are happy with their Tate experience. But the happy voices we've encountered are outnumbered by the complaints WB has received.

-Ann C. Crispin

That's what makes outfits like Tate gripe me so badly. It's the obfuscation, the evasion, the weasel-wording. In a perfect world a vanity house would be forced to place the following copy on the website: "Authors. If you're too lazy, too poor a craftsman, or simply have too many ants in your pants to go the commercial publishing route, send us X dollars and we'll print you a nice book."

Bingo. Everyone would know from the get-go what the deal was. No harm no foul. But alas, we don't dwell in a perfect world, do we?

Personally, I don't think a perfect world should be full of insults, but perhaps insulting people is a part of your perfect world.

It is important to remember that there are cases where self-publishing and vanity press are the best places for a book.

I certainly agree that a publishing company should be up front about any fees associated with publishing books, but lets leave ego and insults out of it.

When is a vanity press a good situation? That is a genuine question. I can understand when self-publishing with an outfit like Lulu would be a good idea, but I genuinely don't for vanity presses.

Thanks in advance!

Exactly. There is a world of difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing. In the above post I was addressing the latter.

Has anyone ever heard of this outfit?

http://www.tatepublishing.com/

They are interested in my sister's book, but don't allow any profanity or sex. It's a Christian publisher, apparently. They claim to issue print books.

Well, for someone who makes a living on the speaker tour, (say an inspirational speaker) who wants to sell good quality books in the lobby, and who doesn't want to learn about self-publishing but just pay someone to do it, it might be a viable option.

Major vanity press:

http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebt.htm

caw

ask for darren.









(j/k. get it? tate... darren... bewitched...? funny, sex and 'bad' language isn't appropos. i guess that leaves excessive violence? lol.)