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Stacia Kane
10-20-2008, 10:40 PM
I'm not hiding anything, but it certainly looks as though you are.

TINSTAAFL:…….. There is no such thing as a free lunch


I'm sorry, could you explain what your reply has to do with my post? I told you my names and my publishing credits (well, the major ones; I also have small press credits--for which I was also paid--but you seem only interested in the Big Six so I gave you what you wanted). I told you exactly what you quoted, which is that I am not hiding anything. I'm being open and honest, entirely so.

You, on the other hand, are now claiming you signed a confidentiality agreement with one of the Big Six, before being offered a contract which you then refused, and you have implied that part of the reason you did not accept that offer was because they wanted the advance back if the book did not earn out (you do realize you've still never even confirmed for us that is not true, right?).

Having a book in your hand does not make you published if you paid for that book to be printed. You are printed. You do not have professional writing credits; quite frankly, I consider your publishing lecture cruises to be highly unethical. Nowhere on your difficult-to-navigate website do you mention that you paid to have your books published. In fact, you present yourself as a publishing/book marketing expert with real credentials, and charge innocent people a lot of money for your advice.

And if the sort of information you give on these very expensive cruises is along the lines of "Major publishers make you give the advance back if you don't sell enough copies", then you do aspiring writers a grave disservice by deliberately feeding them misinformation. You make them vulnerable to fraud and scams; you are morally, IMO, an accomplice to theft.


(Am I the only one having flashbacks to "She lives in Canada. You wouldn't know her"?)

Oh, and by the way...

I believe it has been proven what I said, “that publishers can and do attach strings to their offers. Read some of the posts.

Expecting the author to actually provide the manuscript that's been paid for is hardly a "string." When you paid Tate to print your book, surely you would have wanted your money back if they hadn't actually printed the books? Would you have considered that a "string attached" to the 4k you gave them? Or is it simply the deal; you paid them for a service, and you expect them to provide it. My publishers pay me for a product; if I fail to provide it they get their money back. Just like with every other financial transaction in the world. Calling it a "string" is hyperbolic at best.

JulieB
10-20-2008, 10:43 PM
I want to go back to something I said early on: If you understand what you're required to provide and what you'll get in return, and you go into the deal with your eyes wide open, then I don't have a problem.

It's clear from this thread that some people have had success with Tate. Others haven't. I wish all of you the best.

Now I think I'm going to bow out of this thread because it's getting really counterproductive, at least for me. People are entrenched, and there seems to be little middle ground.

eqb
10-20-2008, 10:43 PM
Books in store …..they do

Sometimes. Usually where authors have managed to convince the store owner. PA does that too.

Best sellers……….they do

The term "bestseller" is easy to misuse. If you pick a narrow-enough category on Amazon, in a narrow-enough timeframe, lots of books can claim to be bestsellers.

Amazon rating…………they do…….had a #2 book

See comment above.

Distributors………..they do….. Spring Arbor/ Ingram.

Ingram is a wholesaler, not a distributor.

Set and schedule book tours………….they do

From what I've read, their book tours are low-quality. Much like their bookings for the music side of their business.

Pay advances………….They do

They *sometimes* pay an advance. More often they take the author's money, which is the opposite of an advance.

Offer more than Lulu, iuniverse…………..they do

Unless you specify what you mean, this is another meaningless sweeping statement.

Offer more then e-books or POD’s………. they do

See above. Leon, if you knew more about publishing, you would know that there is a wide spectrum of e-book publishers and POD publishers out there. Saying that Tate "offers more" (more what?) doesn't further your argument.

Are they better then other publishers ……..no, they just do things differently and it depends on what you’re looking for.

That is a question every author needs to ask -- what are they looking for from a publisher. For someone who wants a publishing career, vanity publishing (such as Tate) is not the right choice.

RyanTate
10-20-2008, 10:48 PM
OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen. I have asked some of our staff to be in this forum to help answer your questions, but all I see is that a majority of the individuals here (I apologize if this doesn't include you) choose to be dream killers and attack everyone who comes here with good information. I just instructed Stacy Baker to no longer concern herself with this site. We felt it would be wonderful to provide all interested the opportunity to ask their questions directly and that you would be excited about that opportunity, but this is obviously just a site to break down any opportunity other than the normal traditional publishing option for an author. That is unfortunate, but I will no longer allow my staff to have to deal with such horrible behavior as demonstrated here. Tate Publishing is happy to answer any of your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time (405)376-4900. Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

Once again, this site should provide a wonderful opportunity for both publisher and author to discuss options and services, instead this is an attack site full of hate and anger. I have even personally answered questions on this site that were not anyones business, yet that wasn't enough. So, it is with a heavy heart that I give you to each other. You may continue in your attacks and hate mongering ways. What saddens me the most is the hate and anger that my comments will cause, but true colors are true colors and they have absolutely been shown on this site.

Finally, Tate Publishing has it owns blogs now that are positive and created to provide information to all concerned so they can make a joyful and educated decision to publish. That site is http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php. As always, you may simply call as well, and we would love to chat with you. This site and forum is not moderated appropriately, hateful and full of deception. I am sorry, but this is the reality and we can't have a part of it.

aka eraser
10-20-2008, 10:51 PM
Dang. Ryan has written us off and taken Stacy with him.

Now upon whom shall I unleash my anger and hatred?

eqb
10-20-2008, 10:52 PM
Dang. Ryan has written us off and taken Stacy with him. Now upon whom shall I unleash my anger and hatred?

*hides in terror*

RyanTate
10-20-2008, 10:55 PM
See, you people are amazing...it literally only took you 30 seconds to start being negative! Here is my post incase you missed it earlier!

OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen. I have asked some of our staff to be in this forum to help answer your questions, but all I see is that a majority of the individuals here (I apologize if this doesn't include you) choose to be dream killers and attack everyone who comes here with good information. I just instructed Stacy Baker to no longer concern herself with this site. We felt it would be wonderful to provide all interested the opportunity to ask their questions directly and that you would be excited about that opportunity, but this is obviously just a site to break down any opportunity other than the normal traditional publishing option for an author. That is unfortunate, but I will no longer allow my staff to have to deal with such horrible behavior as demonstrated here. Tate Publishing is happy to answer any of your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time (405)376-4900. Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

Once again, this site should provide a wonderful opportunity for both publisher and author to discuss options and services, instead this is an attack site full of hate and anger. I have even personally answered questions on this site that were not anyones business, yet that wasn't enough. So, it is with a heavy heart that I give you to each other. You may continue in your attacks and hate mongering ways. What saddens me the most is the hate and anger that my comments will cause, but true colors are true colors and they have absolutely been shown on this site.

Finally, Tate Publishing has it owns blogs now that are positive and created to provide information to all concerned so they can make a joyful and educated decision to publish. That site is http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php. As always, you may simply call as well, and we would love to chat with you. This site and forum is not moderated appropriately, hateful and full of deception. I am sorry, but this is the reality and we can't have a part of it.

Queen of Swords
10-20-2008, 11:02 PM
OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen.

If Mr Mentzer's posts bother you, put him on your ignore list.

Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

Ah, the usual "lurkers support me in PM".

And despite all the hateful anger and angry hate that you claim is on this website, you, your personnel and your supporter just can't seem to stay away from it.

RyanTate
10-20-2008, 11:06 PM
Yeah, that is true, I have noticed Leon has been very mean to all of you. Leon, quit trying to answer their questions and by all means don't ask them any! Shame on you!

Oh, and here is my last post if you missed it!

OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen. I have asked some of our staff to be in this forum to help answer your questions, but all I see is that a majority of the individuals here (I apologize if this doesn't include you) choose to be dream killers and attack everyone who comes here with good information. I just instructed Stacy Baker to no longer concern herself with this site. We felt it would be wonderful to provide all interested the opportunity to ask their questions directly and that you would be excited about that opportunity, but this is obviously just a site to break down any opportunity other than the normal traditional publishing option for an author. That is unfortunate, but I will no longer allow my staff to have to deal with such horrible behavior as demonstrated here. Tate Publishing is happy to answer any of your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time (405)376-4900. Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

Once again, this site should provide a wonderful opportunity for both publisher and author to discuss options and services, instead this is an attack site full of hate and anger. I have even personally answered questions on this site that were not anyones business, yet that wasn't enough. So, it is with a heavy heart that I give you to each other. You may continue in your attacks and hate mongering ways. What saddens me the most is the hate and anger that my comments will cause, but true colors are true colors and they have absolutely been shown on this site.

Finally, Tate Publishing has it owns blogs now that are positive and created to provide information to all concerned so they can make a joyful and educated decision to publish. That site is http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php. As always, you may simply call as well, and we would love to chat with you. This site and forum is not moderated appropriately, hateful and full of deception. I am sorry, but this is the reality and we can't have a part of it.

Stacia Kane
10-20-2008, 11:08 PM
Mr. Tate, I think we all read the post the first time.

I'm wondering why you said on your blog that Random House asked an author for the advance back when the book in question didn't earn out? Could you explain that a little further? I'm sure my Random House editor would be very interested in hearing more details on that.

herdon
10-20-2008, 11:10 PM
See, you people are amazing...it literally only took you 30 seconds to start being negative! Here is my post incase you missed it earlier!


If you continue to spread this kind of hateful misinformation, the members of this board may be forced to take legal action against you. Considering that it is quite evident that it took 3 minutes rather than 30 seconds for members of the forum to start being negative, and considering that the time difference is clearly displayed on the forum, my lawyers have informed me that a libel case against you would be pretty open and shut, so I'd be a bit more careful with your use of 'literally' in the future.

Queen of Swords
10-20-2008, 11:10 PM
Yeah, that is true, I have noticed Leon has been very mean to all of you.

I'll forgive him. He's got a thankless task on his hands, after all - trying to defend a vanity press with no way to back up his flimsy assertions and with no support from said vanity press here (other than copy-and-paste spiels).

Leon, quit trying to answer their questions

He's trying?

and by all means don't ask them any! Shame on you!

People here have answered his questions. Perhaps you should read the thread if you missed them.

Oh, and here is my last post if you missed it!

Tl;dr

Would you like to copy and paste it again? It's amusing, watching you repeat yourself again and again as if that actually means something.

eqb
10-20-2008, 11:12 PM
Ryan,

In all seriousness, we tried to have a discussion with you. We asked lots of questions, but you consistently gave confused and vague answers in return.

And the purpose of this particular forum is to examine publishers and agentes, so that authors can make informed choices. Tate, from everything I've read here and on your site, is a vanity publisher to most of your authors. The cases where you don't charge a fee, or where you even offer an advance are rare. Of those you charge to publish, some do manage to sell enough books to get their fee back, but it's unclear how many of *those* authors had to buy their own books to meet that requirement.

If that's not right, please explain why not. (With specifics.)

Roger J Carlson
10-20-2008, 11:14 PM
Ryan Tate,

Since we're repeating ourselves, let me repeat:

Two AW members have reported that they commented on your blog and those comments have not been approved.
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2855874&postcount=657
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2856093&postcount=658

We have been open and allowed you to have your say -- multiple times with multiple employees and satisfied customers. If you are so open and honest, why not approve those posts and respond to them on your own blog? Light of day and all that.

Bubastes
10-20-2008, 11:17 PM
Mr. Tate, I think we all read the post the first time.

I'm wondering why you said on your blog that Random House asked an author for the advance back when the book in question didn't earn out? Could you explain that a little further? I'm sure my Random House editor would be very interested in hearing more details on that.

I did a little Googling, and the only reference I could find to Random House asking for a return on an advance is this one, where P. Diddy had to return $300K because he didn't finish the book.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-07-12-p-diddy-lawsuit_x.htm

Note: interestingly enough, Random House recently cancelled publication of Jewel of Medina by Sherry Jones, but I recall reading on a Q&A with her that they allowed her to keep her $100K advance because (duh) she performed her end of the deal by delivering a finished, publishable manuscript.

III
10-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Frankly, the longer this goes, the worse Tate Publishing looks.

Ryan. Dude. There are quite a few Christians who have posted in this thread and who call AW our family. Your tantrum isn't helping anything in any way and you're making Christians in general look stupid. Seriously, please let that post be your last and take Leon with you and let this thread sink (see quote above).

Medievalist
10-20-2008, 11:21 PM
I have searched, diligently, for any Research I university library, or any library in World Cat for a library with a copy of a book published by Tate.

I can't find a one. World Cat is a catalog of world libraries--public, private, and academic--there ought to be a few Tate books listed.

Nor can a library order Tate books through Voyager.

That's typical for a subsidy publisher, however, and Tate appears to be a typical subsidy publisher, aside from a certain less than impressive openness.

I should point out that a subsidy publisher, like Tate, is not the same as a vanity publisher; it's a small distinction, but an important one since it has to do with distribution, among other things.

Jersey Chick
10-20-2008, 11:31 PM
It always amuses and amazes me when asking questions of a publisher becomes "hate mongering". I've noticed that's usually because the publisher does not want to admit that the word "vanity" comes before the word "publisher." Those asking the questions become meanies and bullies because they dare ask questions.

Take a look around Mr. Tate - there are plenty of people here who have self-published and I've yet to see any author put down for that. It isn't a slam to say that self published books and/or vanity/subsidy published books don't count as legitimate writing credits. That's the way it is. I've yet to come across an agent who says otherwise. It's not a putdown, but the cold honest truth.

I'm published through a small publisher. I was paid an advance, which I've earned out. The only circumstance under which I would have had to pay back that advance would be if I didn't turn in a publishable manuscript. And this is small publisher, no doubt with tighter budgetary concerns than one of the Big 6.

I've also seen here that the only time an author is warned away from a vanity publisher is when that author is under the assumption that the vanity publisher in question is posing as a commercial publisher. There generally is no beef with vanity/subsidy publishers - as long as they don't try to mislead authors into believing they are legitimate commercial publishers.

Queen of Swords
10-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Take a look around Mr. Tate - there are plenty of people here who have self-published and I've yet to see any author put down for that.

There's a time and a place for self-publishing. There's one for vanity publishing as well. If a writer knows exactly what he or she is getting into, and still wants to pay Tate $4000, I'll wish that writer the best.

However, if that writer is under the impression that it's normal in publishing for writers to pay publishers thousands of dollars, that some "Author Contribution" above and beyond the manuscript is required by reputable publishers, that's not good. If that writer believes that vanity- or subsidy-published books are actual publishing credits, that misinformation should be corrected. And finally, if that writer is not clear on the nature of Tate Publishing, I'll be more than happy to direct them to this thread.

I haven't been published through anyone yet. But when I am, I won't be paying the publisher for it - the publisher will be paying me and my agent for my hard work and for hers. There's no such thing as a free lunch, but why give a publisher both your manuscript and your money if you could get a publisher to pay you instead?

triceretops
10-20-2008, 11:50 PM
All of Tate's ads, banner or otherwise, are all over the WWW. They are soliciting would-be authors through these ads. If they would replace those ads by expending engergy and marketing money with how to purchase their books, there would be no need in calling them a vanity publisher.

Tri

Leon Mentzer
10-20-2008, 11:57 PM
This thread has gotton wayyyyyy out hand.......Look out! they can't shoot straight so they got the shotgun out.......

III
10-21-2008, 12:00 AM
So now you're spamming us?

RyanTate
10-21-2008, 12:00 AM
Wow, I stepped into one meeting and now Tate Publishing can't sell books and hasn't answered any of your questions. Read this post, it is full of information and even sales statistics. However, it doesn't surprise me that is is all about what we can't do. Oh yeah, here is my post again if you all forgot...

OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen. I have asked some of our staff to be in this forum to help answer your questions, but all I see is that a majority of the individuals here (I apologize if this doesn't include you) choose to be dream killers and attack everyone who comes here with good information. I just instructed Stacy Baker to no longer concern herself with this site. We felt it would be wonderful to provide all interested the opportunity to ask their questions directly and that you would be excited about that opportunity, but this is obviously just a site to break down any opportunity other than the normal traditional publishing option for an author. That is unfortunate, but I will no longer allow my staff to have to deal with such horrible behavior as demonstrated here. Tate Publishing is happy to answer any of your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time (405)376-4900. Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

Once again, this site should provide a wonderful opportunity for both publisher and author to discuss options and services, instead this is an attack site full of hate and anger. I have even personally answered questions on this site that were not anyones business, yet that wasn't enough. So, it is with a heavy heart that I give you to each other. You may continue in your attacks and hate mongering ways. What saddens me the most is the hate and anger that my comments will cause, but true colors are true colors and they have absolutely been shown on this site.

Finally, Tate Publishing has it owns blogs now that are positive and created to provide information to all concerned so they can make a joyful and educated decision to publish. That site is http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php. As always, you may simply call as well, and we would love to chat with you. This site and forum is not moderated appropriately, hateful and full of deception. I am sorry, but this is the reality and we can't have a part of it.

Stacia Kane
10-21-2008, 12:11 AM
Oh, ffs. Thanks for the spam.

Mr. Tate, I asked you a very respectful question; are you refusing to answer it?

aka eraser
10-21-2008, 12:12 AM
Curtis, any more spam and you'll have to stand outside in the hall for a while.

Jersey Chick
10-21-2008, 12:13 AM
<snipped> Read this post, it is full of information and even sales statisticsUm... where are they again?

OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen. Translation - they actually expect answers to questions. Bad forum. Bad forum.

I have asked some of our staff to be in this forum to help answer your questions, but all I see is that a majority of the individuals here (I apologize if this doesn't include you) choose to be dream killers and attack everyone who comes here with good information. Ah... yes... the dream killers. Sounds just like another thread, only there it's jealous toady bug. Good information includes facts that can be verified. So far, very few (if any) have been verified beyond "I said so and you'll have to take my word for it." That doesn't quite cut it when it comes to researching publishers and the like, as far as I'm concerned.

We felt it would be wonderful to provide all interested the opportunity to ask their questions directly and that you would be excited about that opportunity, but this is obviously just a site to break down any opportunity other than the normal traditional publishing option for an author. Again, you are woefully misguided in that notion. If you actually looked around, you'd see for yourself that there are some instances where self-publishing is encouraged. But wait, that would take away another one of your arguments, wouldn't it, which means, of course, you won't go look.

That is unfortunate, but I will no longer allow my staff to have to deal with such horrible behavior as demonstrated here. From what I've seen, you and your employees (or however they are related to Tate Publishing) have been treated cordially and with respect. It does not, however, appear to be a two-way street.

Tate Publishing is happy to answer any of your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time (405)376-4900. Just don't ask about the pay-to-play aspect and all will be well.

Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site. I can think of one "publisher" who might be happy. And I use the term "publisher" loosely in connection with them.

Once again, this site should provide a wonderful opportunity for both publisher and author to discuss options and services, instead this is an attack site full of hate and anger. Again, woefully misguided. Unless by hate and anger you mean advice.

I have even personally answered questions on this site that were not anyones business, yet that wasn't enough. So, it is with a heavy heart that I give you to each other. You may continue in your attacks and hate mongering ways. What saddens me the most is the hate and anger that my comments will cause, but true colors are true colors and they have absolutely been shown on this site. Again, asking questions = hate mongering. Usually that's only the case when those questions poke at some very sensitive places. Can't imagine why.

This site and forum is not moderated appropriately, hateful and full of deception. Translation: They actually ask questions and expect answers to them! The noive!

I am sorry, but this is the reality and we can't have a part of it. unless you're going to repost the same post four or so times, right? And spam on top of it...

Queen of Swords
10-21-2008, 12:16 AM
Read this post, it is full of information and even sales statistics.

(405)376-4900 is not a statistic.

And I don't think anyone's reading the spiel. Let's see if that will make you post it again; the more you do it, the more unprofessional Tate looks.

herdon
10-21-2008, 12:34 AM
Curtis, any more spam and you'll have to stand outside in the hall for a while.

To be fair, shouldn't Ryan Tate's recent replies be deleted for spam too?

(And what is up with Tate employees spamming the site anyways? Next up: DoS attacks?)

brianm
10-21-2008, 12:37 AM
What proof do you have that Tate isn’t “a legitimate publisher” ? Just other posters here? Not in any court in the land. We‘re mixing up facts with personal opinions and that is gasoline and a bic.

They are a legitimate SUBSIDY publisher, Leon. In their television ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYw7CSs4_0Y) they claim to be the nation’s premiere “traditional” publishing company. What does that mean, Leon? Surely, a company that charges its authors nearly $4,000.00 to print their books is not a “traditional” publisher, are they? And if they are the nation’s premiere “traditional” publisher, why are they allowing PublishAmerica, (http://www.publishamerica.com/) that also calls itself a “traditional” publisher, to say this on their homepage?

We are the Nation's number one book publisher!!

We publish more new titles than any other traditional book publisher.

Surely, if PA publishes more new book titles than Tate, then that would make PA the premiere “traditional” publisher, would it not? But we all know PA is not a “traditional” publisher. They are a vanity press that made up the term “traditional” publisher that Tate is using in its own TV ads.

And because they offer different options they don’t even fit the definition of vanity or subsidy from of one of your own…the P & E list.

Really? This P&E list. (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebt.htm) or do you have another P&E list you are referring to?

Tate Publishing: A subsidy publisher.

sleepsheep
10-21-2008, 12:38 AM
My two cents: I've been primarily a lurker on this thread, but I just have to chime in here. It seems to me that with every posting from Mr. Tate, or one of his associates, the company loses more and more credibility. I just can't imagine the founder of a major (or even minor, for that matter) publishing company spending time here in the way that Mr. Tate and others from his organization have done.

I am a novice writer, making my first attempt at publishing. It's a difficult business, and I can see the temptation of a vanity publisher. But even I, in my limited experience, understand that a situation that requires the writer to pay in order to get the book published is highly questionable.

So, there, that's it. It's just kind of frustrating reading this going back and forth. In case anybody from Tate is wondering, the AW members with legitimate publishing credits and obvious experience in the industry on this thread are doing a fine job debunking the presented misinformation, and, because of their resourcefulness, I (and hopefully other new writers such as myself) would never consider Tate or somebody like them as a self-publishing option.

AnneMarble
10-21-2008, 12:43 AM
To be fair, shouldn't Ryan Tate's recent replies be deleted for spam too?
Oh let him keep posting them. I want to see how many ways he can write "In case you haven't read my post!!!" The more he does it, the more people will want to stay away from his company.

(And what is up with Tate employees spamming the site anyways? Next up: DoS attacks?)
Shhh, don't give them any ideas. :) Anyway, maybe they think any publicity is good publicity. Right. Tell that to OJ. Think he wanted to be in the news all that much lately? :rolleyes:

herdon
10-21-2008, 12:48 AM
I just can't imagine the founder of a major (or even minor, for that matter) publishing company spending time here in the way that Mr. Tate and others from his organization have done.


I find it hard to imagine the founder of a vanity publisher doing it. If you are a vanity publisher -- like Tate -- your "customers" are not AW readers, they are would-be authors who do not have a resource like AW. It's better to just let AW do what it does rather than trying to get into a shouting match that might bring more Google-based attention onto the discussion and thus lose potential customers.

Queen of Swords
10-21-2008, 12:51 AM
Oh let him keep posting them. I want to see how many ways he can write "In case you haven't read my post!!!"

And it's better than deleting his posts and getting a response that the hatey haters at hateful Absolute Write are afraid of the truth and are hatily censoring him.

He won't let certain posts on to his blog, but we allow him to speak his piece here (again and again and again).

The lurkers can see who has something to be afraid of, and it ain't us.

Jersey Chick
10-21-2008, 12:57 AM
And maybe those mysterious statistics will show up. Hey, it could happen.

Kitrianna
10-21-2008, 01:01 AM
My two cents: I've been primarily a lurker on this thread, but I just have to chime in here. It seems to me that with every posting from Mr. Tate, or one of his associates, the company loses more and more credibility. I just can't imagine the founder of a major (or even minor, for that matter) publishing company spending time here in the way that Mr. Tate and others from his organization have done.

I am a novice writer, making my first attempt at publishing. It's a difficult business, and I can see the temptation of a vanity publisher. But even I, in my limited experience, understand that a situation that requires the writer to pay in order to get the book published is sketchy, at best, and most likely, highly fraudulent.

So, there, that's it. It's just kind of frustrating reading this going back and forth. In case anybody from Tate is wondering, the AW members with legitimate publishing credits and obvious experience in the industry on this thread are doing a fine job debunking the presented misinformation, and, because of their resourcefulness, I (and hopefully other new writers such as myself) would never consider Tate or somebody like them as a self-publishing option.

Astounding isn't it?

I find it hard to imagine the founder of a vanity publisher doing it. If you are a vanity publisher -- like Tate -- your "customers" are not AW readers, they are would-be authors who do not have a resource like AW. It's better to just let AW do what it does rather than trying to get into a shouting match that might bring more Google-based attention onto the discussion and thus lose potential customers.

It's publishers like Tate that brought me here in the first place, but Havlen makes an excellent point. Most would be authors don't take the time to research their options (how I found AW, thank God for that!). I have made it a priority to tell all my friends here in Brantford that write (and believe it our not we have quite the community) to come to AW because the people here are helpful, informative and down right fun. That and it will save them alot of heartache and hassles in the future. I have no desire to see anyone put through that nonsense without being fully informed. My apologies and sympathy to Mr.Tate and his staff that they found their AW experiences less than satifactory. Perhaps a touch of honesty would have made your stay more pleasant :)

kullervo
10-21-2008, 01:20 AM
I hate that you charge writers to be published, Mr. Tate. That's what I hate.

Jersey Chick
10-21-2008, 01:24 AM
I might not like the pay-to-play (and I'm from Jersey, where pay-to-play's a way of life around here :D) but what burns me is hiding it and trying to convince people that this is how publishing works. That fries me because it's a lie and they know it and continue to peddle it as truth.

Money flows toward the author NOT the other way around all you lurkers out there. Remember that. The publisher pays YOU, you do NOT pay the publisher. Don't let any of them tell you otherwise.

Bubastes
10-21-2008, 01:26 AM
To echo what Jersey Chick said: the ONLY place you should ever sign a check for your writing is on the BACK.

brianm
10-21-2008, 01:47 AM
As to author who publish thru them not being consider published, prove it. That should hard since its public information.

From the Author Guild's membership eligibility page. (https://www.authorsguild.org/join/eligibility)

Self-published works and works published by subsidy presses do not qualify an author for membership.You can qualify for membership in SFWA (http://www.sfwa.org/org/qualify.htm#Q3) if your book…

Is not self-publication, vanity press, or other type of author-paid or fee-charging press,From Jane Smith’s blog, (http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2008/07/subsidy-and-cooperative-publishing.html) “How Publishing Really Works”…

By subsidising the cost of publishing their own book, or by taking part in the cooperative publication of their book, a writer will end up with their book in their hands which wouldn't otherwise have been published.

They will also be several hundreds of pounds poorer, because both these schemes are disguises for vanity presses, and don’t represent any sort of publishing creditFrom WriterBeware’s Victoria Strauss. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/freelance_writing/writer_beware.htm)

Subsidy-published books are not regarded as genuine publishing credits.I expect you won’t accept these sources, and there are many more, just as you won’t accept that you have been subsidy/vanity published. Again, there is nothing wrong with the choice you made, but do not try to proclaim in this thread or anywhere on the internet that being subsidy/vanity published puts you on the same level as a trade published author. You may both possess the same writing skills, but only the trade published author has a real chance of success because his publisher’s income is derived from publishing and selling books. The vast majority of your publisher’s income is derived from selling its printing services and not from selling books. If it were from selling books, there would be no need to charge the majority of their authors fees to become “published” authors.

Jersey Chick
10-21-2008, 02:10 AM
Romance Writers of America does not consider vanity/subsidy publishers as legitimate publishing credits either. You do not need to be published in order to join, but if you wish to become a PAN member, one of the requirements for eligibility is that your publisher meets RWA's definition of non-vanity/non-subsidy publishers. If an author contributes any dollar amount toward the publication of their book, RWA considers that press a vanity/subsidy press.

In order to enter a book in RWA's RITA contest (for published authors), the book being entered cannot be published by what they consider to be a vanity/subsidy press.

Also, RWA will announce first sales by their members. However, they will NOT if the publisher in question is what RWA considers to be a vanity/subsidy publisher.

Stacia Kane
10-21-2008, 02:28 AM
Numerous agents--in fact, almost every agent that has a blog--have stated that self-published or vanity/subsidy-published books do not count as publishing credits, and they will google the author to double-check.

riteideas
10-21-2008, 02:35 AM
Numerous agents--in fact, almost every agent that has a blog--have stated that self-published or vanity/subsidy-published books do not count as publishing credits, and they will google the author to double-check.

Dang it, Now I have to rewrite my query letter and change my credits from 21 to NONE!!! My mom did like the stories though.

Medievalist
10-21-2008, 02:42 AM
From the Author Guild's membership eligibility page. (https://www.authorsguild.org/join/eligibility) .

I want to add that self-published, vanity, and subsidy published books do not count towards tenure or promotion in higher ed.

Jersey Chick
10-21-2008, 02:53 AM
Should we keep going or do you think the point's been made? ;)

BenPanced
10-21-2008, 03:25 AM
THE HORSE JUST MOVED! I SAW IT!

AnneMarble
10-21-2008, 03:45 AM
I did find one genre organization that accepts self-published works as part of their membership -- sort of. Self-published comic books can qualify you for Active Membership in the HWA , but only if they meeting the following criteria:
The scripting within a one-year period of no less than three self-published full-length comic books (defined as a minimum of 20 story pages per issue), or that equivalent in self-contained stories, relating to the dark fantasy, horror, or occult genre(s), with a minimum print-run of 2,000 nationally-distributed copies per issue.


Wow, a lot of literary mags don't even have a print run of 2,000 nationally distributed copies per issue. :) Also, a vanity press or subsidy press isn't going to put out a comic book. (It wouldn't be cost-effective to print a POD comic book three times per year.) That's real self-publishing, and lots of hard work. That option was probably provided because so many comic books are self-published today.

It's possible that self-published works are allowed as contenders for the Spur Award (http://www.westernwriters.org/spur_award_history.htm) (Western Writers of America) -- I'm really not sure. They are accepting of small press work, probably because the field is so tight and so few Westerns are coming out from the bigger publishers. But even then, you're competing with a number of established authors. (For example, in 2007, an Amazon Short won under one of the categories, but it was by established author Johnny Boggs.)

Queen of Swords
10-21-2008, 03:57 AM
It's possible that self-published works are allowed as contenders for the Spur Award (http://www.westernwriters.org/spur_award_history.htm) (Western Writers of America) -- I'm really not sure.

A couple of months ago, I emailed the Spur Awards committee to check if vanity printed books such as those put out by PA were eligible. Jim Ersfeld, the Spur Awards Chair, replied to say that they were.

AnneMarble
10-21-2008, 04:17 AM
A couple of months ago, I emailed the Spur Awards committee to check if vanity printed books such as those put out by PA were eligible. Jim Ersfeld, the Spur Awards Chair, replied to say that they were.
But I'll bet the authors had better send the required copies by the deadline rather than relying on the pub... I mean the printer... to do it for them. ;) IIRC that means buying four copies of their own book to send in. At PA prices, ouch.

priceless1
10-21-2008, 04:34 AM
I hate that you charge writers to be published, Mr. Tate. That's what I hate.
Kullervo, to be fair, no one is putting a gun to any of these authors' heads. He's found a way to make good, easy money, and a lot of hungry authors desperate to be published at any cost. Is it greasy? I think so. But this is a free country for a little while longer. As long as there are suckers out there willing to sign a contract without knowing the industry, vanity presses will continue to be very lucrative for the owners.

What do I dislike is his steadfast insistence that he's a "traditional" publisher. "Traditional" publishers don't accept money from their authors to be published. That would make it a vanity press. He knows this, we all know this.

What I dislike is his blog that spouts more untruths about the publishing industry that I can shake a stick at.

I dislike the wanton gullibility of authors to believe in something so strongly that they'll spend any amount of money. But that's why the Cooler exists.

I can't see where this conversation is going to spring new fruit. Tate isn't going to all of a sudden decide that the Cooler is right and, by golly, they really ARE vanity any more than the Cooler is going to decide that Tate is a "traditional" press. The snark will go back and forth, and to what end? The warts have been exposed, and no one is under any illusions. Why continue flogging a very overripe banana? Rather, think of the education you've provided for new authors who will be all the more educated, and cut this guy loose.

herdon
10-21-2008, 04:59 AM
I can't see where this conversation is going to spring new fruit. Tate isn't going to all of a sudden decide that the Cooler is right and, by golly, they really ARE vanity any more than the Cooler is going to decide that Tate is a "traditional" press. The snark will go back and forth, and to what end? The warts have been exposed, and no one is under any illusions. Why continue flogging a very overripe banana? Rather, think of the education you've provided for new authors who will be all the more educated, and cut this guy loose.

That's up to the people from Tate -- always has been.

So long as they come here and post or make reference to this place on their blog, people here will chatter about them. If they stop, this convo will dry up rather quickly.

Deb Kinnard
10-21-2008, 05:38 AM
choose to be dream killers...

Tate Publishing has it owns blogs now that are positive

The purpose for this blog is to provide more comprehensive information to authors looking for facts. The purpose of all my posts is to add to the discussion if I can. Nobody is out to kill anyone's dream. If a writer's dream is to be truly published, vanity/subsidy presses are the quickest way I know of to put a dream to death.

Let's look at the facts: in the experience I've had with small press and e-publication (and you can look this up because I use my own name), I've found out you can barely use these as "previous sales." How much less, then, can an author use a subsidy publishing experience as proof of her ability to write a commercially successful book?

It is not the AW members who are being negative. It's every subsidy/vanity press out there, masquerading as something else, that provides a negative experience for would-be commercial authors.

Deuteronomy 25:13 admonishes us not to use diverse weights--not to say one thing and provide another. I call you to account.

Momento Mori
10-21-2008, 02:36 PM
Ryan Tate:
Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

That's interesting.

Which law firm are you using, who is the contact lawyer at that law firm, where did you file suit, who are you suing and what are you suing them for?

Also, anyone from AW able to confirm whether they've been served with a lawsuit?

MM

Bubastes
10-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Here's an example of one of those grateful letters:
http://tatepublishingacquisitions.blogspot.com/2008/10/tate-publishing-lawsuits-against-lying.html

And here's Victoria's take on the letter writer (surprise, surprise, it's a fee-charging agent who appears to have "sold" several books to a vanity publisher):
http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2006/01/victoria-strauss-faking-track-record.html

Momento Mori
10-21-2008, 05:06 PM
That does beg the question whether Tate has ever signed a deal with an author represented by Martin-McLean Literary Associates and if so, whether that was on an advance paying basis or an investment basis.

MM

Queen of Swords
10-21-2008, 05:10 PM
I'm not confident of getting straight answers from Tate here (or anywhere), so I plugged "Tate Publishing" and "lawsuit" into Google. The first result is from another Tate blog (http://tatepublishingacquisitions.blogspot.com/2008/10/tate-publishing-lawsuits-against-lying.html):

Tate Publishing is now joining other publishers by filing trademark infringement and copyright violation lawsuits against Dog Ear, Absolutewrite, Writersnet, Writerbeware, and several other individuals and web sites.

I couldn't find much else about Tate's multiple lawsuits on the first page of search results, but I'll keep browsing. Might come in very handy for an article about Tate some day.

eqb
10-21-2008, 05:26 PM
Here's an example of one of those grateful letters:
http://tatepublishingacquisitions.blogspot.com/2008/10/tate-publishing-lawsuits-against-lying.html

Fee-charging agent meets fee-charging publisher. A match made in heaven!

Momento Mori
10-21-2008, 05:29 PM
Given that Leon is so happy with Tate, perhaps it's best if we ignore his comments.

He's clearly not prepared to listen to anything that we have to say (no matter what third party sources are cited in support of our statements), he has no intention of doing his own research beyond talking to Tate and seems keen to engage in baiting exercises with certain posters. Chalk it up to the fact that there's none so blind as those who refuse to see and move on.

In the meantime, I wonder if Ryan's going to come back and tell us all how hateful we're being.

:gets out popcorn:

MM

Jersey Chick
10-21-2008, 05:29 PM
Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if neither one comes back (though I don't doubt one or the other is lurking.)

Queen of Swords
10-21-2008, 05:45 PM
He's clearly not prepared to listen to anything that we have to say (no matter what third party sources are cited in support of our statements), he has no intention of doing his own research beyond talking to Tate and seems keen to engage in baiting exercises with certain posters.

Leon once said (on my blog) that if Preditors and Editors was in the right, they wouldn’t have any legal problems.

I said I hoped he didn’t apply that reasoning to his religion, because then he’d have to conclude that if Jesus was in the right, he wouldn’t have had any legal problems either.

Calla Lily
10-21-2008, 05:59 PM
Leon once said (on my blog) that if Preditors and Editors was in the right, they wouldn’t have any legal problems.

I said I hoped he didn’t apply that reasoning to his religion, because then he’d have to conclude that if Jesus was in the right, he wouldn’t have had any legal problems either.

:roll: Queen, PLEASE give a beverage alert before posting things like that!

(And yes, I am a Christian, in case anyone thinks I'm being particularly evil today.)

Old Hack
10-21-2008, 06:07 PM
Romance Writers of America does not consider vanity/subsidy publishers as legitimate publishing credits either. You do not need to be published in order to join, but if you wish to become a PAN member, one of the requirements for eligibility is that your publisher meets RWA's definition of non-vanity/non-subsidy publishers. If an author contributes any dollar amount toward the publication of their book, RWA considers that press a vanity/subsidy press.

There's a good reason why vanity-published books aren't accepted as legitimate publishing credits: vanity publishers only consider the writer's ability to write a cheque. They pay no attention to the writer's ability to write a book.

I'd love to have a reasoned debate with Tate about all of this but haven't found it here, and the comments I made to Tate's blog were not approved--although they were reasonable questions, and not rude or abusive in any way. A shame: because if our questions had been answered without fuss or bother, this whole thread might have been a lot shorter and friendlier.

(And thanks to Brian for quoting from my blog--it's appreciated.)

brianm
10-21-2008, 06:07 PM
Here's the link (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21902) to the existing thread on Lisa Martin (Martin-McLean Literary Associates), the email letter writer referenced by Beth above.

Martin-McLean Literary Associates:

On WB’s ( http://www.sfwa.org/beware/twentyworst.html) “Thumbs Down” agency list.
Per P&E: ( http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pealm.htm)

Martin-McLean Literary Associates: Charges fee. Not recommended. Also a Top Twenty worst according to Writer Beware. A literary agency and believed member of IILAA.

Tate thinks displaying an email from a fee charging agent known for sending her "clients" manuscripts to fee charging (vanity/subsidy) publishers is a good thing? In other words, he thinks writers should also pay for agent services on top of printing services?

Old Hack
10-21-2008, 06:13 PM
So we have the fee-charging agent sending work to a fee-charging publisher; now all we need is an editorial services provider and we'll have the hat-trick.

(I need that one for my bingo card, so let me know if you see it. We're close to a full house now.)

brianm
10-21-2008, 06:24 PM
Given that Leon is so happy with Tate, perhaps it's best if we ignore his comments. MM

I respectfully disagree.

The point of these threads is to inform and educate writers and when Leon posts false and/or misleading information into this thread, IMO, it should not be ignored.

Momento Mori
10-21-2008, 07:10 PM
brianm:
Tate thinks displaying an email from a fee charging agent known for sending her "clients" manuscripts to fee charging (vanity/subsidy) publishers is a good thing? In other words, he thinks writers should also pay for agent services on top of printing services?

One of the questions I asked Stacey here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2826567&postcount=550) was how many authors Tate dealt with directly and how many they dealt with via agents. Needless to say, I never got an answer.

brianm:
I respectfully disagree.

The point of these threads is to inform and educate writers and when Leon posts false and/or misleading information into this thread, IMO, it should not be ignored.

How dare you disagree with me, sir! I shall immediately categorise you as a hater and instruct counsel to commence legal proceedings forthwith!

More seriously, I see your point. It's just I feel a bit sorry for the bloke. All he appears to have on his side is what Tate told him and s00per sekrit information that's been told to him by "top six" publishers he can't name because it's so sooper sekrit they made him sign an agreement. And when he's given information from third party sources or people humour his repeated demands to name their publishers, he retreats behind an argument akin to "I know you are but what am I?". It's sad.

MM

Roger J Carlson
10-21-2008, 07:30 PM
In the meantime, I wonder if Ryan's going to come back and tell us all how hateful we're being.
He pretty much has to.

Ever notice how we rarely get angry responses from real agents and publishers? And it's not because we don't have some bewares on them. It's because mostly, we're doing them a favor. If we discourage writers from submitting to an agent or publisher, we're saving them money by reducing their slushpile.

But with fee-charging agents and subsidy/vanity publishers, it's different.

A real agent's customer is a publisher. A commercial publisher's customer is the book buying public. But the fee-charging agent's and the subsidy/vanity publisher's customers are writers. We're costing them customers; impacting their revenue.

They have to respond

priceless1
10-21-2008, 08:08 PM
I'd love to have a reasoned debate with Tate about all of this but haven't found it here, and the comments I made to Tate's blog were not approved--although they were reasonable questions, and not rude or abusive in any way. A shame: because if our questions had been answered without fuss or bother, this whole thread might have been a lot shorter and friendlier.
Spot on, Hackie. Debate should be a big part of anyone's litmus test in granting trust. If an agent or editor can't handle healthy debate without dancing the Sleight of Hand Boogie, they will be exposed for exactly what they are. That's the purpose of the Bewares board, Writer Beware, and P&E. Anyone putting on their suit-happy jacket and pants would do well to remember that truth is a defense in cases of libel and slander.

Sheryl Nantus
10-21-2008, 08:18 PM
Spot on, Hackie. Debate should be a big part of anyone's litmus test in granting trust. If an agent or editor can't handle healthy debate without dancing the Sleight of Hand Boogie, they will be exposed for exactly what they are. That's the purpose of the Bewares board, Writer Beware, and P&E. Anyone putting on their suit-happy jacket and pants would do well to remember that truth is a defense in cases of libel and slander.

exactly.

all you have to do is go back through the pages here of B&BC to see publishers who have either backed out with a whiny rant/deleted all their posts/insinuated that "lawsuits are to follow"/"you're just jealous of MY company!" or, my best - that somehow it's all part of the Big Conspiracy against Small Presses.

if you can't hold your ground against honest, well-phrased questions from people who just want to know the truth, then it'll be pretty obvious what you're all about.

:D

IceCreamEmpress
10-21-2008, 08:33 PM
So, to review the bidding:

Leon Mentzer calls names, continues his silly "I have secret information that I can't tell you but you should believe me about it" nonsense;

Ryan Tate has a childish hissyfit and posts it four or five times over;

Tate announces that it's going to sue for copyright infringement (I am dying laughing here).

Folks: Run away from this ridiculously unprofessional organization. This is not how professional publishers deal with conflicts.

brianm
10-21-2008, 08:36 PM
How dare you disagree with me, sir! I shall immediately categorise you as a hater and instruct counsel to commence legal proceedings forthwith!

Diddo on that, madam. And my legal counsel is bigger than your legal counsel, so there!

More seriously, I see your point. It's just I feel a bit sorry for the bloke. All he appears to have on his side is what Tate told him and s00per sekrit information that's been told to him by "top six" publishers he can't name because it's so sooper sekrit they made him sign an agreement. And when he's given information from third party sources or people humour his repeated demands to name their publishers, he retreats behind an argument akin to "I know you are but what am I?". It's sad.I agree. Victoria posted this upstream.

I'm thinking that perhaps this conversation has run its course for the moment. We seem to be saying the same things over and over, and there's always the danger, when that starts to happen, of things getting heated. It's also an indication that there's little possibility of one side changing the other's mind.

We'll never change Leon's mind, because he thinks what we post are solely our opinions. What he fails to realise is that every industry has guidelines or norms for what is acceptable and unacceptable working practices.

He claims to have owned a real estate investment company. If a Realtor required he pay $500.00 to come give him a fair market appraisal on his home, he'd consider that an unacceptable real estate industry practice. If the Realtor told him they'd refund the money after his home sold, he recognise that as a come on. The Realtor has already been paid. Where is the incentive to actually do the hard work? The open houses, the advertising, the getting the word out to other Realtors and to the public that they have a great listing?

Placing a home in MLS doesn't sell a home. Anymore than giving a book an ISBN and placing it on online sites sells copies of that book. Trade publishers spend a great deal of money, time, and energy selling their books. But if a publisher is paid upfront for their services, where's the incentive to sell the book? They've already been paid, just like the aforementioned Realtor.

herdon
10-21-2008, 09:05 PM
To be fair, I don't think the real purpose of this forum is to convince the publisher to change his business practices and/or become more honest about them. I also don't think the real purpose is to convince the publisher's authors that they got a raw deal.

The first is going to be a losing cause most of the time, and the second being a fight against someone's own denial.

The real audience for these discussions are the would-be future authors that want more information about the publisher before signing on the dotted line.

Deb Kinnard
10-22-2008, 04:42 AM
OMW, it's for real! Tate says on one of its blogs, they're now going to start making movies! Oh, the humanity (screenwriters, get out your checkbooks)!

:Headbang:

kullervo
10-22-2008, 07:47 AM
OMW, it's for real! Tate says on one of its blogs, they're now going to start making movies! Oh, the humanity (screenwriters, get out your checkbooks)!

:Headbang:

Oh, goodie. Of all the writers organizations a would-be prodco shouldn't cross, it's the WGA ftw!

Momento Mori
10-23-2008, 01:28 PM
So it's been a couple of days since Ryan Tate's Spam of Doom ...

Do we know where those law suits have been filed and precisely who Tate are suing yet?

MM

Queen of Swords
10-23-2008, 01:51 PM
I've been doing a little investigating of Tate. One of Leon Mentzer's claims is that Tate does pay an advance to certain people - namely, celebrities.
How about Shane Hammond two time Olympian and the national spokesman for Rachel’s challenge who just received a $20,000.00 signing bonus from Tate. ---> Link (http://www.writers.net/forum/read/13/8577/8577Vf)

On this thread, he repeats the claim (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1769864&postcount=164), with a slightly different last name.

For example: Shane Hamman, two time Olympian and currently the strongest man in the world. He rec’d a $20,000 advance. He has a lot more to offer success then my book.

An Amazon search for authors called "Shane Hammond" didn't pull up any results. Neither did a search for "Shane Hamman" (which, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Hamman), seems to be the correct spelling).

I did a Google search for "Shane Hamman" and "Tate Publishing". It brought up three hits. Two are from Mr Mentzer, making the as yet unproven claim about the advance. The third (http://mustangtimes.blogspot.com/2006_08_23_archive.html) is from the Mustang Times, August 3, 2006.

He signed a contract with Tate Publishing on Tuesday to publish his as yet untitled autobiography. It will cover his life to this point, he says.

There is no mention of a $20,000 advance - or an advance of any kind. Finally, a search of Tate's online store pulls up no results for "Shane Hamman".

Sheryl Nantus
10-23-2008, 05:20 PM
I've been doing a little investigating of Tate. One of Leon Mentzer's claims is that Tate does pay an advance to certain people - namely, celebrities.


On this thread, he repeats the claim (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1769864&postcount=164), with a slightly different last name.



An Amazon search for authors called "Shane Hammond" didn't pull up any results. Neither did a search for "Shane Hamman" (which, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Hamman), seems to be the correct spelling).

I did a Google search for "Shane Hamman" and "Tate Publishing". It brought up three hits. Two are from Mr Mentzer, making the as yet unproven claim about the advance. The third (http://mustangtimes.blogspot.com/2006_08_23_archive.html) is from the Mustang Times, August 3, 2006.



There is no mention of a $20,000 advance - or an advance of any kind. Finally, a search of Tate's online store pulls up no results for "Shane Hamman".

hmm... well, that would sort of put the nail in the coffin, wouldn't it?

along with Leon's supposed "inside knowledge" of the industry.

remember, kids - money flows TO the author, NOT to the publisher.

:)

CaoPaux
10-23-2008, 07:44 PM
How about Shane Hammond two time Olympian and the national spokesman for Rachel’s challenge who just received a $20,000.00 signing bonus from Tate. ---> Link

For example: Shane Hamman, two time Olympian and currently the strongest man in the world. He rec’d a $20,000 advance. He has a lot more to offer success then my book. .M'kay, was the 20K a "signing bonus" or an advance? There's a big difference.

Regardless, there's no trace of a book touted in 2006.

Queen of Swords
10-23-2008, 08:24 PM
M'kay, was the 20K a "signing bonus" or an advance? There's a big difference.

In one post Mr Mentzer says "signing bonus"; in another he says "advance".

Momento Mori
10-23-2008, 09:55 PM
Wow.

Anyone reading the writer.net link that Queen of Swords should keep some Double Mint handy because some of the comments really leave a bad taste in the mouth. My personal favourites are the responses to an allegation that one of Tate's offerings was poorly written and one dimensional - it's like the check list of justifications you see on the PA boards.

What those who signed with Tate appear to have in common though is lack of research, ignorance of how publishing is supposed to work and in some cases, low expectations and the belief that anyone offering them a warning is a hater. It's interesting though that for all of the protests that Tate is an advance paying outfit, all of the defenders were happy, happy investment paying folk.

MM

Sheryl Nantus
10-23-2008, 10:18 PM
you'd think that if the Lord wanted you to publish your book that He'd either provide the money or send you to a real publisher.

:D

as for Leon, well... let's just say that he seems to be the Tate equivalent of Shlemp.

;)

victoriastrauss
10-23-2008, 10:33 PM
Let's try to avoid insults, please. Thanks.

- Victoria

brianm
10-24-2008, 01:35 AM
Tate Publishing proudly proclaims they were named “2006 Best Christian Publisher of the Year” by the “National Christian Storytellers Association.”
(http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/award.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/index.php%3Fn%3D1&h=268&w=280&sz=54&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__4Uhvq18mVIB8utkDmb_KnxhaZ-w=&tbnid=lTKpapDORjfroM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTate%2BPublishing%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den% 26sa%3DN)

But if you enlarge the picture of the award, it reads “Awarded by christianstoryteller.com”.

Now who could that be?

Answer: Leon Mentzer.

It took a little google-foo to match up Leon and this site, but I assure you Leon and christianstoryteller.com are one and the same. So Tate Publishing received an award from one of their own authors and yet they claim it came from somewhere else?

Typo? Or maybe they did receive an award from the National Christian Storytellers Association and they just put the wrong picture on their site?

I won’t even get into the fact that Leon’s site gives out awards each year to Tate published authors or that he’s holding a contest this year sponsored by Tate Publishing wherein the winner receives a Tate Publishing contract…

astonwest
10-24-2008, 02:02 AM
...or that he’s holding a contest this year sponsored by Tate Publishing wherein the winner receives a Tate Publishing contract…
With or without the author investment clause? Receiving publication for free, versus paying $4000, might not be such a bad deal...unless you had to pay taxes on the $4000 value.

herdon
10-24-2008, 02:16 AM
Tate Publishing proudly proclaims they were named “2006 Best Christian Publisher of the Year” by the “National Christian Storytellers Association.”
(http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/award.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/index.php%3Fn%3D1&h=268&w=280&sz=54&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__4Uhvq18mVIB8utkDmb_KnxhaZ-w=&tbnid=lTKpapDORjfroM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTate%2BPublishing%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den% 26sa%3DN)

But if you enlarge the picture of the award, it reads “Awarded by christianstoryteller.com”.

Now who could that be?

Answer: Leon Mentzer.

It took a little google-foo to match up Leon and this site, but I assure you Leon and christianstoryteller.com are one and the same. So Tate Publishing received an award from one of their own authors and yet they claim it came from somewhere else?

Typo? Or maybe they did receive an award from the National Christian Storytellers Association and they just put the wrong picture on their site?

I won’t even get into the fact that Leon’s site gives out awards each year to Tate published authors or that he’s holding a contest this year sponsored by Tate Publishing wherein the winner receives a Tate Publishing contract…

I did a google search for National Christian Storytellers Association and came across this thread:

http://www.faithwriters.com/Boards/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19095&sid=b03a7cbfb862b97228df5440d35c9de6

A few posts in it says the same thing -- the National Christian Storytellers Association was a cheap website probably done by one of the authors.

brianm
10-24-2008, 03:25 AM
M'kay, was the 20K a "signing bonus" or an advance? There's a big difference.

Regardless, there's no trace of a book touted in 2006.

But he does state on his myspace page that he is writing one.

Queen of Swords
10-24-2008, 06:17 PM
Something else I noticed about the Shane Hamman claim...

On August 1, 2008, Ryan Tate posted on my blog (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2125325709844932289&postID=1697194997568013141) to say,

The signing bonuses range from $4,000 to the highest bonus we have ever awarded of $20,000. An example of this is one of our newest authors, Shane Hamman.

So Shane Hamman was one of Tate’s newest authors on August 1, 2008. However, on September 20, 2006, Mr Mentzer said (http://www.writers.net/forum/read/13/8577/8577Vf),

How about Shane Hammond two time Olympian and the national spokesman for Rachel’s challenge who just received a $20,000.00 signing bonus from Tate.

So Shane Hamman was supposedly paid in September 2006, but two years later, he’s still one of Tate’s newest authors?

brianm
10-24-2008, 07:10 PM
I noticed Ryan Tate posted this on your blog (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2125325709844932289&postID=1697194997568013141) on August 1, 2008, QoS.

Quote from Ryan Tate on August 1, 2008

In addition, we just signed one of Oklahoma’s former Attorney Generals to write a children’s book that will correspond with our state’s centennial celebrations this year. We are all very excited about these titles and their release in the near future.

Strangely, Oklahoma’s centennial celebrations were in 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma) and that’s also when Tate Publishing released former AG Larry Derryberry’s children’s book. (http://www.amazon.com/Oklahoma-Scranimal-Larry-Derryberry/dp/1602473188)

Of course, they may have signed more than one former attorney general who ALSO wrote a children’s book, but Oklahoma’s centennial was definitely in 2007.

Oh, wait... here's a link (http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/08/30/podcast185-larry-derryberry-shares-the-oklahoma-scranimal-as-a-digital-story/) to a podcast dated August 30, 2007 and it states Derryberry's book ...

... has been declared an official book of the Oklahoma Centennial, and is published by Tate Publishing...

I do hope Ryan knows not to go stand out on the parade route this year, because the parade has already passed him by.

Dan Sterling Smith
10-26-2008, 04:35 AM
I had never thought I would see more mudslinging than the current national binary election.

The first part of conquering people is to divide them. The first part of dividing people is convincing them to choose a side.

Queen of Swords
10-26-2008, 04:40 AM
Pointing out discrepancies in claims made by Tate supporters and personnel is not mudslinging.

Res ipsa loquitur.

eqb
10-26-2008, 04:41 AM
I had never thought I would see more mudslinging than the current national binary election.

I don't see any mudslinging, only fact digging.

If there weren't any perceived problems with Tate, this thread would be pretty short.

Dan Sterling Smith
10-26-2008, 05:12 AM
Yaa…I didn’t want to spend the next couple of hours quoting; my wife has better things for me to do. Maybe someone can identify the antagonists – Nitpick, Whine, and company.

Until next week, thanks for the help.

eqb
10-26-2008, 05:24 AM
Maybe someone can identify the antagonists – Nitpick, Whine, and company.

Those would be Ryan, Leon, and Curtis.

(Curtis only showed up for a few posts, but he gets extra points for the off-topic spam.)

Queen of Swords
10-26-2008, 06:07 AM
Yaa…I didn’t want to spend the next couple of hours quoting

You should look into getting a faster Internet connection.

Jersey Chick
10-26-2008, 06:10 AM
Those would be Ryan, Leon, and Curtis.

(Curtis only showed up for a few posts, but he gets extra points for the off-topic spam.)
:D - And the boy certainly knew how to spam

ejket
10-26-2008, 09:46 AM
I had never thought I would see more mudslinging than the current national binary election.
You can sling a big chunk of cash at Tate instead if you want. They love that. They'll even let you think that you're a bona fide published author. I mean, if you want to live the dream, you have to close your eyes. Right?

astonwest
10-26-2008, 04:12 PM
Personally, the last three or four posts don't really add much to the facts surrounding Tate, but that could just be me.

CaoPaux
10-26-2008, 09:14 PM
Didn't you get the memo? Presenting the facts is nitpicking, and discussing ethical concerns is whining. :Ssh:

If anyone has fresh data to fill in the holes of Tate's arguments, jump on in: we love being proved wrong, because it's a bore to be right all the time. :e2yawn:

Momento Mori
10-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Hi, Dan, I'm not sure that I understand your comment about nitpicking and whining, given that you yourself have told us here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2845092&postcount=601) that at one point you apparently did not believe that Tate was fulfilling their marketing obligations towards you, which I think many people took to mean that you were not satisfied with what you got for the $4,000 investment:

Dan Sterling Smith:
Because I had felt they were not fulfilling their part of the contract, I contacted the Better Business Bureau in Oklahoma City. After stating my case, I suggested a resolution of Tate refunding half of my investment. Within one week, Tate removed my book from their website – it is still available from book vendors like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. – and sent me a check for $2000.

Now, I know that you later made a further post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2853861&postcount=639) where you clarified that you were in fact happy to have gone with Tate, despite the issues you had with them and I'm not criticising you for that, but is this because you've now sold enough books for Tate to refund the remaining $2,000 that you had tied up with them? Also, based on your experiences, would you pay for your next books to be published with them or would you look elsewhere?

MM

Mayusan
10-27-2008, 09:16 PM
hiya.

I'm new... but I thought I'd post my two cents if anyone is interested.

I wrote a book that I was very excited about, and I did a lot of research and found it is usually a better idea to hire an agent rather than just go to a publisher directly.

I asked questions of writers on yahoo answers for advice, on a different writer's message board, and I bought a book called Guide to literary agents 2008.

In course of trying to find a good agent... someone mentioned tate publishing to me, so I got in contact with them.

for what it's worth, I didn't feel comfortable with them. One thing that made me pause was the fee, I mean... I've read in hundreds of places that if they charge you a fee... be wary. It's kind of like those poetry sites that say "Your poem has been picked to be added to our 'yada yada' poetry book", then they ask you for $50 if you want a copy of the book...

So that gave me pause... but another thing was when they said "In 2007, we accepted only 3.5% of the manuscripts submitted for publication" on their website."

however, they were willing to accept mine... and I did some research, and talked to 4 people. 2 were accepted, 2 were rejected.

So plus me, 3 accepts vs. 2 rejects is like over 50% right there... I mean, if they accept so little, how do you find more accepts than rejects?

Plus, as a Christian myself... there is something, a bit... I dunno... weird about the pontificating of religious beliefs on a website for writers of all genres... http://www.tatepublishing.com/beliefs.php you know... kind of like... "thou dost protesteth too much" The more you say "I do" the more you don't and the more you say "no way" the more you do... you know.

I mean, I see less preaching from my Catholic church at Sunday mass.

I am not going to poo poo anyone who wants to give it a go, or has given this company a go and is happy with their choice... but for me... I just got a lot of warning flags that made me a bit uncomfortable... and I found a really great agent in the process who I AM happy with.

Best of luck to all who decide to go tempting tate. (Get it? get it? Tempting fate... tempting tate...

nevermind)

herdon
10-27-2008, 10:32 PM
Plus, as a Christian myself... there is something, a bit... I dunno... weird about the pontificating of religious beliefs on a website for writers of all genres... http://www.tatepublishing.com/beliefs.php you know... kind of like... "thou dost protesteth too much" The more you say "I do" the more you don't and the more you say "no way" the more you do... you know.


Unfortunately, the best way to slyly say "You can trust me" is to say "I am a Christian." It is an unfortunate truth.

Queen of Swords
10-27-2008, 11:07 PM
I did a little more research nitpicking into one of Ryan Tate's claims gospel truths. On his blog, on October 17 (http://tatepublishingpresident.blogspot.com/2008/10/dog-ear-publishing-being-sued.html), he stated:

To say that Tate Publishing books aren't for sale in bookstores is completely untrue, ALL Tate Publishing titles are for sale in bookstores everywhere.

That's incredibly easy to check. I was at the Eaton Centre today, so I went to the Indigo bookstore and typed "Tate Publishing" into a search. The first three pages of results turned up one Tate title (The Scribble Book) which was available - none of the others were. For the first page of results, I also did a search of whether any other bookstores in Toronto carried those books. None did.

Since I am a curious picker of nits, I also typed "Leon Mentzer" into the search box. On my blog, on July 30 (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2125325709844932289&postID=1697194997568013141), Mr Mentzer stated,

My second book was tradition as well as my third book.

The Indigo database could find only one book under his name. That was published by Tate and is not available in other bookstores in Toronto.

kullervo
10-28-2008, 12:07 AM
Ah, yes, in God We Trust, all others must pay cash...

triceretops
10-28-2008, 12:11 AM
"Tate Publishing--making your dream a reality"

...At the cost of four grand with no distribution...

That about sums it up, doesn't it?

Tri

riteideas
10-28-2008, 12:13 AM
http://powelsbooks.com/s?kw=Tate+Publishing

BenPanced
10-28-2008, 12:46 AM
Many of the titles listed in that search are published by Tate Britain (http://www.tate.org.uk/publishing/), a completely different company. This thread is about Tate Publishing (http://www.tatepublishing.com/).

triceretops
10-28-2008, 01:16 AM
Yes, but are these online listings? Physical placement is another thing entirely. B&N has similar listings--and they are electronic.

Tri

Stacia Kane
10-28-2008, 01:23 AM
Since I am a curious picker of nits, I also typed "Leon Mentzer" into the search box. On my blog, on July 30 (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2125325709844932289&postID=1697194997568013141), Mr Mentzer stated,



The Indigo database could find only one book under his name. That was published by Tate and is not available in other bookstores in Toronto.


Amazon does have two titles for him. One is nonfiction; sales rank around 1.5 million. The other I guess is a novel, and its sales rank is around 3.2 million.

astonwest
10-28-2008, 03:23 AM
This is the book which I saw in my local Borders (http://www.borders.com/online/store/OLRLocatorResults?within=100&all_stores=10&productId=56793743&id=56793743&sku=1598869094&VIEWNAME=OnlineReserveListView&ERRORVIEWNAME=OnlineReserveListView&zipCode=67206&x=0&y=0), from Tate Publishing.
His other book with Tate is also in-store, but I couldn't find it on Borders.com.

Personally, he's enjoying his experience, and is getting everything he wanted out of it...so I'm not going to fault him for going the direction he did. Hell, if I didn't know anything about publishing, I'd almost be tempted to go with Tate as well, just on his experience.

Dan Sterling Smith
10-28-2008, 07:25 AM
Please forgive the double post; I was logged out.

Dan Sterling Smith
10-28-2008, 07:28 AM
Greetings Folks,

My nitpicking and whining has drawn more ire than the intended chuckles; the Nitpicker (cover art) and Whiner (marketing) was intended to portray me and my posts. For those that felt offended enough to use the negative reputation results, please be lighter on the trigger. The only one that seemed to take it with some humor is the Queen.

astonwest seemed to get it right away also; it was a joke on my complaining and impatience; and the company I was dealing with. I would have thought the comment about a binary election would have been the worst part.

Momento, I had a couple of issues with Tate that I felt were not handled as fast as I thought they should. Note my post that stated I should realize the publishing industry does not turn on a dime. Some more good advice I received from a member of this thread. Anyways, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and once Ryan Tate became aware of my plight, he and his staff did help me. They continue to help and I have been working with the marketing director towards increased sales.

I have not sold enough issues to receive a refund on my investment; however, I am confident that I will, since Tate had no problem sending half of it during a troubling time in my life. Dr. Richard Tate seemed genuinely distraught that I had not come to him before going to the BBB.

Tate publishes many books that you would expect from a publisher that claims to be Christian based. Although my book has a spiritual inclination, it is a science fiction odyssey. This presents some unique marketing issues that the marketing director might find unfamiliar.

Some very successful sci-fi books have included a spiritual base; Dune and Star Wars are only a couple. Note the name of the book: Primal Ancestor, it eludes to the One that made us in His image.

Okay I’m done, time to beat-up on Dan.

ejket
10-29-2008, 02:41 AM
Well, best of luck, Dan, but don't let your expectations get too high. Tate isn't actually equipped to sell books (they don't have to be since they've already been paid), so you're still pretty much on your own.

It would be interesting to hear what Tate did to help you sell your book, though. Book signings?

Jersey Chick
10-29-2008, 03:43 AM
I have no problem with vanity presses or the people who use them - they do serve a purpose and that's fine.

What I DO have a problem with is a vanity press that pretends to be something it isn't - a commercial publisher. I don't like liars, I don't like deceitful business practice and I don't like to see writers who get sucked in because they think vanity publication = commercial publication.

Momento Mori
10-30-2008, 09:39 PM
So, it's been almost a fortnight since Tate announced that they were "joining other publishers" and filing lawsuits against "Absolutewrite, Writersnet, Writerbeware, and several other individuals and web sites".

Anyone received any court papers yet? Any ideas as to who these "other publishers" and "other individuals and web sites" are?

MM

Alexandra Little
10-30-2008, 10:18 PM
Waaay back on page 16 of this thread (in mid-August) I noted I saw a commercial for Tate publishing. Just an update I saw it again, at night on A&E. It's not spammed out there like other commercials--I've only seen in twice in a month and a half. Still had the "premiere commercial publisher" bit.

Just putting the info out there.

brianm
10-30-2008, 11:58 PM
Waaay back on page 16 of this thread (in mid-August) I noted I saw a commercial for Tate publishing. Just an update I saw it again, at night on A&E. It's not spammed out there like other commercials--I've only seen in twice in a month and a half. Still had the "premiere commercial publisher" bit.

Just putting the info out there.

If you page upstream, you'll find a link to the TV commercial. The one posted proclaims Tate as being the premiere traditional publisher, not premiere commercial publisher. Are you sure you heard the TV commercial correctly?

Roger J Carlson
10-31-2008, 01:01 AM
Interesting. I missed that before. I see there's also a commercial for their Music Group. I suppose they were put together by their new movie production company.

Nature Nerdie
11-03-2008, 10:02 PM
After googling Tate Publishing I found AW water cooler. Tate publishing had been suggested to me by someone who had recently been "published"-for $4,000. :Jaw:Thank you all for the education, advice, and awareness produced by these threads. I spent many evenings reading through the entire Tate postings and learned so much. I'm a lurker no longer and will follow all that great advice for finding a "REAL" publisher.

Alexandra Little
11-03-2008, 10:40 PM
If you page upstream, you'll find a link to the TV commercial. The one posted proclaims Tate as being the premiere traditional publisher, not premiere commercial publisher. Are you sure you heard the TV commercial correctly?


I meant traditional. I was doing a lot of multitasking when I wrote that :o

Stacy Baker
11-03-2008, 10:57 PM
Nature Nerdie,
Nice to meet you! I certainly appreciate our Tate author's recommendation. However, your post sounds like you might not have gone to the general information page at www.tatepublishing.com

On that page, we explain that there are three different kinds of contracts. Without seeing your book or visiting with you, we would have no idea if your book would merit an investment contract, a non-investment contract, or an advance contract.

You are welcome to give me a call, and I'll be glad to set up a review of your book and will let you know if we can help you.

If we cannot offer a no-investment or advance contract, then by all means, we'll let you know that as well.

My number is 405-376-4900 and ask for Stacy. Thanks and I hope to hear from you soon!

Queen of Swords
11-03-2008, 11:08 PM
I spent many evenings reading through the entire Tate postings and learned so much. I'm a lurker no longer and will follow all that great advice for finding a "REAL" publisher.

Good idea, NN, and welcome to the board! I think you made the right choice. A writer serious about having a career in writing is better off not wasting either time or money with vanity publishing - especially if there are serious discrepancies and unprofessional behavior from the vanity publisher in question.

Momento Mori
11-03-2008, 11:21 PM
Stacey - although I appreciate you taking the time to come back to try and solicit customers for your "investment" service, do you really think that it's a good idea to be seen to be posting on these boards? Afterall, my understanding is that Tate Books regarded AW as one of the sites defaming its good reputation, and I'd hate to see you tainted by association, particularly when Ryan, did make the point of coming here on 20 October (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2869257&postcount=747) to say:

Ryan Tate:
I just instructed Stacy Baker to no longer concern herself with this site.

I'd hate for you to get in trouble with your boss.

Although while you are here, any word on where and when those legal actions were filed and against whom Tate is taking legal action? It's just it's a little strange that given Tate's avowed intent to sue those "defaming" it, there's been remarkably little action.

Nature Nerdie, welcome to AW. Scroll back through this thread and the words of Ryan Tate himself should be enough to tell you what the company's about. Unless you've got 4 grand that you really don't mind losing (because the chances aren't great that you'll make the sales necessary for it to be returned to you), it's worth checking out your other options.

MM

triceretops
11-03-2008, 11:28 PM
Unbelievable. Tate saw a potential customer in post 865 and went after it, including the contact phone number. Astounding. The tactics are PA-agressive. And you know this company is in the bucks if they can advertize on the visual media. I'll bet Vantage Press is saying "Jesus, we're doing it wrong, people. Study and evaluate Tate's sucker program. They're infringing on our market."

Tri

herdon
11-03-2008, 11:33 PM
After googling Tate Publishing I found AW water cooler. Tate publishing had been suggested to me by someone who had recently been "published"-for $4,000. Thank you all for the education, advice, and awareness produced by these threads. I spent many evenings reading through the entire Tate postings and learned so much. I'm a lurker no longer and will follow all that great advice for finding a "REAL" publisher.

Sadly, too few writers do proper research before selecting a publisher. This leads a great too many to sell themselves short.

I don't think there is anything wrong with going the small press or even self-publishing route (though I wouldn't personally touch Tate with a ten foot pole being that I consider it a vanity publisher), but I don't see why anyone would want to go that route without at least checking with the major publishers and legitimate agents to see if their book could find a better home.

Sheryl Nantus
11-03-2008, 11:34 PM
Trust me, Nature... you did the right thing.

Besides, if you call Stacy you'll probably get Ryan and the toughest sales pitch you've seen since... this election season!

:D

Queen of Swords
11-03-2008, 11:34 PM
Unbelievable. Tate saw a potential customer in post 865 and went after it, including the contact phone number.

I think there must be some Tate Writer Pursuit Manual which insists that they add the phone number to each post they make to a message board. It's like an Internet tic.

BenPanced
11-04-2008, 12:08 AM
Kind of like when an auction owner on eBay swoops down on those who didn't "win" and offers them the same merchandise "at a fantastic rate"?

Mr.H.
11-05-2008, 10:24 PM
... if your book would merit an investment contract, a non-investment contract, or an advance contract.
...If we cannot offer a no-investment or advance contract, then by all means, we'll let you know that as well.

I feel I should chime in here for some reason. I spoke with Stacy Baker on several occasions while I was learning these ropes (I'm still learning...always will be!), and I found her to be quite polite and professional. Of course, she could not cut a deal with me for my book, so there is no happy end to this little tale, and although I pitched one heck of a strong position for myself regarding a non-investment contract, she could not see a way to make it work. I've since moved on to trying to get it done via other traditional channels (see Nothing Special below,) and maybe wouldn't have if not for the learning experience this was, and of course all the guidance I received from the members of this forum. That said, I think kudos should go out to Tate for at least reading these posts and learning a little (and hopefully still learning) about others' perceptions of them. Perhaps with the new spirit of change (are we tired of that word yet?) in leadership in the White House, some change will come to Tate.
Or not, I don't know. I'm feeling a little glass-half-full right now, and I can't explain why. For what it's worth, there it is.

Deb Kinnard
11-05-2008, 11:06 PM
I wholeheartedly agree -- if in fact Tate is willing to become upfront (as becomes a business that calls itself Christian) about its publishing services. It's the lack of honesty on its web site that honks me off. It's the disingenuous answers on this loop that I feel betray the company's true intentions.

After all, what would it have hurt to have come clean to some of the questions raised here? Tate will probably always have its fans who are willing to pay to go the distance. And then, of course, there is that elusive "no investment" contract potential dangled out in front of the author/customer like a carnival lure...

Mr. H, may your project find a happier home elsewhere.

herdon
11-06-2008, 12:04 AM
The difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing: self-publishing explains their pricing upfront and doesn't pretend it is the industry norm.

The same could be said for subsidy publishing, though I have yet to come across what I considered actual subsidy publishing -- just vanity publishing hiding behind another name. (Personally I'm not confident I'll ever see true subsidy publishing as those that can sell books to reader do sell books to readers, and those that can't simply sell books to authors.)

Mr.H.
11-06-2008, 10:42 PM
Mr. H, may your project find a happier home elsewhere.

Thank you very much!

jvaughan5
11-07-2008, 03:15 AM
I have been reading all of your responses about Tate Publishing. I have no idea how to get my children's book published. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? All I seem to find are web sites like Tate and WL etc.. I do not want to be taken advantage of and I just want my book published. I would appreciate any advice!!

Thanks

Rolling Thunder
11-07-2008, 03:37 AM
I have been reading all of your responses about Tate Publishing. I have no idea how to get my children's book published. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? All I seem to find are web sites like Tate and WL etc.. I do not want to be taken advantage of and I just want my book published. I would appreciate any advice!!

Thanks

Start by reading threads here on AW about agents. Also, head over to the Childrens writing forum here! Plenty of folks there can give you some direction.

Welcome to AW and check out some of the links in my signature. They'll help you get started. Good luck!

Queen of Swords
11-07-2008, 03:39 AM
Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

Yes. Do NOT call 405-376-4900.

herdon
11-07-2008, 03:45 AM
I have been reading all of your responses about Tate Publishing. I have no idea how to get my children's book published. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? All I seem to find are web sites like Tate and WL etc.. I do not want to be taken advantage of and I just want my book published. I would appreciate any advice!!

Thanks

The best starting point is searching for an agent to represent you. Of course, you have to make sure you find a legitimate agent -- many hawks in that racket too -- I'd suggest using www.agentquery.com to find the agent and always check this forum for any information on them. (There's a big threat stickied at the top with a list of threads on different agents).

You'll also want to google 'how to write a query letter' and read as much advice on it as you can.

victoriastrauss
11-07-2008, 04:11 AM
The best starting point is learning about the publishing industry before you start trying to submit your work, rather than trying to gather knowledge while you're submitting. Writing is a profession--and like any profession, you need a knowledge base in order to do it effectively.

The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to go to a bookstore and spend some time browsing the section where books on writing are shelved. There are many good introductions to the publication process that focus specifically on the children's market. They will answer not just the question you've asked here, but many others.

I know you're probably very eager to get your manuscript out there, but you truly owe it to yourself to take a little time first to become an educated writer. It's one of the best investments in your career you will ever make.

- Victoria

overfiend
11-10-2008, 05:07 PM
In a recent email exchange with Tate they had the audacity of telling me for 4000$ they are not vanity nor POD publisher .They were very big respectable publishers that had connection with Barnes and Noble...yeah right so does Publish America i wrote.They responded but we do more.In a few words if you are willing to shell 4000 big ones on your book, get it published by LULU(50 copies for PR and distribution)+ get a publicist+get some adverts+a good internet site and i can promise you will still have money left from the 4000 G but have a good campagin that you can see with your own eyes rolling.Or you could try and wait for the geniune publisher to give you a pat on your sholder and publish your book while you will earn royalties(isn't that what real publishers should do?)

PVish
11-10-2008, 05:49 PM
I have been reading all of your responses about Tate Publishing. I have no idea how to get my children's book published. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? All I seem to find are web sites like Tate and WL etc.. I do not want to be taken advantage of and I just want my book published. I would appreciate any advice!!

Thanks

Join SCBWI (http://www.scbwi.org). The $60 for dues is much cheaper than Tate's charges for, er, publication. They'll send you lots of info, including agent info. Plus you'll have some opportunities to network with professional authors and editors from legit companies.

L.G Bavaro
12-03-2008, 12:03 AM
Thank you, As soon as I mentioned Tate publishing I got a slew of negativity. Mainly from people who don't have the money to put up or people who have been rejected by Tate. I have a book in production with them and I am the BOSS, I have had the illustrator running her butt off, as well as the editor with last minute changes, you get an audio reading of it, who else has that. I am totally happy with Tate. And for you who are about to reply to this. Unless you have been screwed by Tate...Don't waste your time.

Jersey Chick
12-03-2008, 12:08 AM
Well, I don't need to be screwed by Tate to know money flows toward the author. Oh, and authors don't have to pay to have their works published.


BTW, I have never had any dealings with Tate, and doubt that I ever will.

AC Crispin
12-03-2008, 12:29 AM
Dear L.G.:

I'm glad you're having a good experience with Tate. The Tate personnel I've communicated with have always been polite, even cordial. Tate has made changes to their website to make the "author investment" portion of their company clearer to prospective authors.

Have a great holiday, and good luck.

-Ann C. Crispin

Queen of Swords
12-03-2008, 12:31 AM
I have had the illustrator running her butt off, as well as the editor with last minute changes, you get an audio reading of it, who else has that.

Writers who are commercially published get editors and illustrators without having to pay $4000 for them. Oh, and they get to sell audiobook rights.

And for you who are about to reply to this. Unless you have been screwed by Tate...Don't waste your time.

It's never a waste of time if we can save readers or lurkers from spending hard-earned money on a vanity press when there are other options which would work better for them. Don't worry about that.

Best of luck on your endeavor.

waylander
12-03-2008, 12:36 AM
Thank you, As soon as I mentioned Tate publishing I got a slew of negativity. Mainly from people who don't have the money to put up or people who have been rejected by Tate. I have a book in production with them and I am the BOSS, I have had the illustrator running her butt off, as well as the editor with last minute changes, you get an audio reading of it, who else has that. I am totally happy with Tate. And for you who are about to reply to this. Unless you have been screwed by Tate...Don't waste your time.

Do please drop by in 6 months or so and tell how things work out

Toothpaste
12-03-2008, 12:36 AM
I have had the illustrator running her butt off, as well as the editor with last minute changes, you get an audio reading of it, who else has that.

I do. And I've been paid handsomely for it.

Gravity
12-03-2008, 01:11 AM
Some writers like to pay money, some like to get paid. And there are enough companies out there to satisfy both. Ain't America grand?

herdon
12-03-2008, 01:17 AM
Thank you, As soon as I mentioned Tate publishing I got a slew of negativity. Mainly from people who don't have the money to put up or people who have been rejected by Tate. I have a book in production with them and I am the BOSS, I have had the illustrator running her butt off, as well as the editor with last minute changes, you get an audio reading of it, who else has that. I am totally happy with Tate. And for you who are about to reply to this. Unless you have been screwed by Tate...Don't waste your time.

I think the main thing many people here have against Tate is the lack of transparency on the website about the potential fees involved. So long as they are upfront about the fees and aren't dishonest about the publishing industry as a whole, I think you'll find most people here to be fine with them.

It's trying to hide the fees or posting inaccuracies about how author advances are handled by the major publishers that people find fault with.

ejket
12-03-2008, 04:54 AM
Thank you, As soon as I mentioned Tate publishing I got a slew of negativity. Mainly from people who don't have the money to put up or people who have been rejected by Tate.
And you know this how?

I have a book in production with them and I am the BOSS, I have had the illustrator running her butt off, as well as the editor with last minute changes, you get an audio reading of it, who else has that.You're not the boss, actually, you're the customer. As long as you understand what that means---for example, that Tate will effectively do nothing to sell your book because they've already been paid---then good luck and have fun.

Stacy Baker
12-03-2008, 08:27 AM
Tate Publishing's extensive in-house marketing staff works daily to promote Tate Publishing titles, and quite successfully according to Ingram/Spring Arbor Wholesalers.

Check out the news on Ryan Tate's blog if you are interested in the latest info on the success of Tate Publishing's marketing efforts! Here is a link that will take you right there: http://tatepublishingpresident.blogspot.com/

You also might want to check out our authors' events! These are just some of the exciting things we have going on for our authors at Tate!

Here is the link: http://www.tatepublishing.com/calendar.php

Here are a few of our Tate authors who have been in the news! Check out their stories and success at: http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/

If you have any questions about how things work at Tate, just give me a call at 405-376-4900 or check our Executive Staff blog sites for lots of updated info. This link will take you to all of the entries: http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php

If you want to make sure you have general information that is correct and updated, don't hesitate to request information at: http://www.tatepublishing.com/services.php

It's my understanding this thread is here to help authors make educated decisions, and we want to do our part by making sure that we provide our correct information as well. Thanks!

BenPanced
12-03-2008, 08:54 AM
OK, this has to be the most mean spirited website and posts I have ever seen. I have asked some of our staff to be in this forum to help answer your questions, but all I see is that a majority of the individuals here (I apologize if this doesn't include you) choose to be dream killers and attack everyone who comes here with good information. I just instructed Stacy Baker to no longer concern herself with this site. We felt it would be wonderful to provide all interested the opportunity to ask their questions directly and that you would be excited about that opportunity, but this is obviously just a site to break down any opportunity other than the normal traditional publishing option for an author. That is unfortunate, but I will no longer allow my staff to have to deal with such horrible behavior as demonstrated here. Tate Publishing is happy to answer any of your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time (405)376-4900. Ever since we have filed our lawsuits against certain individuals and organizations in this blog and the ownership of others we have been inundated with gratitude from publishers and authors all over the country that hate and are hurt by the awful demeanor in this forum and others on this site.

Once again, this site should provide a wonderful opportunity for both publisher and author to discuss options and services, instead this is an attack site full of hate and anger. I have even personally answered questions on this site that were not anyones business, yet that wasn't enough. So, it is with a heavy heart that I give you to each other. You may continue in your attacks and hate mongering ways. What saddens me the most is the hate and anger that my comments will cause, but true colors are true colors and they have absolutely been shown on this site.

Finally, Tate Publishing has it owns blogs now that are positive and created to provide information to all concerned so they can make a joyful and educated decision to publish. That site is http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php. As always, you may simply call as well, and we would love to chat with you. This site and forum is not moderated appropriately, hateful and full of deception. I am sorry, but this is the reality and we can't have a part of it.
Yet...
Tate Publishing's extensive in-house marketing staff works daily to promote Tate Publishing titles, and quite successfully according to Ingram/Spring Arbor Wholesalers.

Check out the news on Ryan Tate's blog if you are interested in the latest info on the success of Tate Publishing's marketing efforts! Here is a link that will take you right there: http://tatepublishingpresident.blogspot.com/

You also might want to check out our authors' events! These are just some of the exciting things we have going on for our authors at Tate!

Here is the link: http://www.tatepublishing.com/calendar.php

Here are a few of our Tate authors who have been in the news! Check out their stories and success at: http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/

If you have any questions about how things work at Tate, just give me a call at 405-376-4900 or check our Executive Staff blog sites for lots of updated info. This link will take you to all of the entries: http://www.tatepublishing.com/blogs.php

If you want to make sure you have general information that is correct and updated, don't hesitate to request information at: http://www.tatepublishing.com/services.php

It's my understanding this thread is here to help authors make educated decisions, and we want to do our part by making sure that we provide our correct information as well. Thanks!
Insubordination? Request by Mr. Tate? Respond-o-Bot 9000tm? Either way, I wouldn't have posted on a forum if I'd filed a lawsuit against them. (Not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.)

Old Hack
12-03-2008, 10:40 AM
Check out the news on Ryan Tate's blog if you are interested in the latest info on the success of Tate Publishing's marketing efforts! Here is a link that will take you right there: http://tatepublishingpresident.blogspot.com/


I checked out several of Tate Publishing's blogs, and posted a couple of questions and comments in an attempt to address some of the many misconceptions I read there (which were all about how commercial/mainstream publishing works): not a single one of my posts was ever approved for publication by the blog owner.

I'm sure I was polite and respectful, so why would Tate not want to publish my comments?

Momento Mori
12-03-2008, 02:21 PM
Stacy Baker:
It's my understanding this thread is here to help authors make educated decisions, and we want to do our part by making sure that we provide our correct information as well.

Yes, correct information would be preferable to the contradictory and in some cases apparent misinformation that you and Ryan have shared with us over an entertaining period of weeks. Not that I don't appreciate you dropping in from time to time in a not-so-subtle-attempt to promote Tate's services in apparent contravention of your boss's orders and in spite of an alleged pending lawsuit against a number of unnamed sites that have dared to point out the potential cost implications to authors of going with Tate Publishing. And really, how is that law suit against the blue meanies going - are Tate's internet lawyers beavering away on filing complaints as I type?

L. G. Bravo - glad to know you're happy with Tate. Come back to let us know when they return your 4 grand cheque and how much you spent to get that money back.

MM

Queen of Swords
12-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Check out the news on Ryan Tate's blog if you are interested in the latest info on the success of Tate Publishing's marketing efforts!

I like that blog entry. Short on facts and long on hyperbole, with the word "incredible" used four times in five paragraphs.

It's my understanding this thread is here to help authors make educated decisions, and we want to do our part by making sure that we provide our correct information as well.

What's the latest on Shane Hamman, Stacy? Has he submitted a manuscript to Tate yet, after you supposedly paid him an advance or a signing bonus of $20,000 two years ago?

The correct information on this, if you have it, would be most appreciated.

IceCreamEmpress
12-03-2008, 09:30 PM
What's the latest on Shane Hamman, Stacy? Has he submitted a manuscript to Tate yet, after you supposedly paid him an advance or a signing bonus of $20,000 two years ago?

The correct information on this, if you have it, would be most appreciated.

Crickets! Crickets! Crickets!

Queen of Swords
12-09-2008, 05:06 AM
I found a thread which mentions Tate on another board (http://authorsociety.proboards103.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2186&page=1). An author previously burned by PA was looking for a new, Christian publisher and got in contact with Tate, which sent him a contract.

The only thing wrong is that they want an author investment of nearly $4000.00 up front.

He was doubtful, and another author responded,

You can self publish even a lot cheaper, my God!!!! I heve never heard of such a blatant rip off!!! They should pay you not the other way around.......!

M.R.J. Le Blanc
12-09-2008, 09:15 AM
That's almost ironic, isn't it? :tongue

James D. Macdonald
12-09-2008, 06:44 PM
I read over in Ryan Tate's blog (http://tatepublishingpresident.blogspot.com/):

Last week Ingram/Spring Arbor Wholesalers, the largest wholesaler in the industry informed us that we are the fastest growing publisher by sales volume they do business with and we are currently breaking into the top ten of the highest volume selling publisher as well.

This is an incredible honor and the results of incredible effort by both Tate Publishing and our wonderful authors. A publisher should be judged by not just the quality of the product they publish, but their ability to market, promote and sell that product.

A Tate published author has always had an incredible advantage and our marketing and distribution is truly second to none. These wonderful results and honors are a blessing an continued confirmation that authors can succeed when in a partnership with Tate Publishing.

And I say amen to that! So let's see what the numbers are from Ingram on Tate titles. Which should I look at? How about the first five books listed at the Events Calendar (http://www.tatepublishing.com/calendar.php) and at Tate Publishing in the news (http://www.tatepublishing.com/news/)? I'll add in the top five sellers from Amazon while I'm at it. I haven't looked yet; I'm as eager to find out as you are.

So what are those titles?

From the Events Calendar:

The Secret in Nana's Garden
The Three Little Lasses Series
by Sandra McCone
(ISBN not found)

A Match Made in Heaven
by Jennifer Atchley
1606042955

Meet Annie
by Heather J. Scharlau- Hollis
1604621486
How to Survive (and Perhaps Thrive) on a Teacher's Salary
by Danny Kofke
1598869027

Cent-sible Homemaking
An Adventure in Frugal Living
by Jean Clark
1606040642


From News:

Pulling Weeds to Picking Stocks by The Beatty Boys
1604627875

The Whole Truth...So Help Me God by Cindy Kay Olson
1602479054

Pigskin Parables: Reflections of a Football Widow by Candee Fick
159886985X

Silent Thunder by Eric Thunander
1604627344

It All Began With Wilt by Cecil Mosenson
1606040553


From Amazon:

Pulling Weeds to Picking Stocks (http://www.amazon.com/Pulling-Weeds-Picking-Stocks-Beatty/dp/1604627875/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228831515&sr=1-1) by The Beatty Boys
1604627875

501 Paintball Tips, Tricks, and Tactics (http://www.amazon.com/501-Paintball-Tips-Tricks-Tactics/dp/1604627220/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228831515&sr=1-3) by Dave ", Landshark", and Norman
1604627220

How to Survive (and Perhaps Thrive) on a Teacher's Salary (http://www.amazon.com/Survive-Perhaps-Thrive-Teachers-Salary/dp/1598869027/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228831515&sr=1-4) by Danny Kofke
1598869027

The Girl in the Italian Bakery (http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Italian-Bakery-Kenneth-Tingle/dp/1604629932/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228833935&sr=1-6) by Kenneth Tingle
1604629932

Travel Tales...: An Old Retiree, His RV, His Dog, and His Woman (Not Necessarily in Order of Preference) Hit the Road (http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Tales-Retiree-Necessarily-Preference/dp/1598864467/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228833935&sr=1-7) by Ken Halloran
1598864467



Okay!

A couple of duplicates, one ISBN not found, for a total of twelve titles. They range from being out for a week to a year or more.

Let's look at their numbers via Ingram. Ingram is just a dipstick, not an absolute number of sales. We're looking at one snapshot of one aspect of one portion of Tate's sales.


Yes, I do have Ingram's stock check number on speed dial.

To be continued....

Jersey Chick
12-09-2008, 06:52 PM
:popcorn:

James D. Macdonald
12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
A Match Made in Heaven
1606042955
On hand 85
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 9
Sales this year 56
Sales last year 0


Meet Annie
1604621486
On hand 14
On order 60
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 0
Sales this year 275
Sales last year 0


Cent-sible Homemaking
1606040642
On hand 3
On order 1
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 0
Sales this year 0
Sales last year 0



Pulling Weeds to Picking Stocks
1604627875
On hand 183
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 21
Adjusted demand last week 93
Sales this year 4,648
Sales last year 0


The Whole Truth...So Help Me God
1602479054
On hand 159
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 0
Sales this year 261
Sales last year 0


Pigskin Parables
159886985X
On hand 31
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 1
Sales this year 52
Sales last year 88


Silent Thunder
1604627344
On hand 81
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 2
Sales this year 339
Sales last year 0

It All Began With Wilt
1606040553
On hand 0
On order 30
On backorder 1

Unadjusted demand this week 0
Adjusted demand last week 69
Sales this year 254
Sales last year 0


501 Paintball Tips, Tricks, and Tactics
1604627220
On hand 0
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 1
Adjusted demand last week 16
Sales this year 170
Sales last year 0


How to Survive (and Perhaps Thrive) on a Teacher's Salary
1598869027
On hand 0
On order 120
On backorder 16

Unadjusted demand this week 7
Adjusted demand last week 45
Sales this year 423
Sales last year 33

The Girl in the Italian Bakery
1604629932
On hand 0
On order 0
On backorder 10

Unadjusted demand this week 19
Adjusted demand last week 68
Sales this year 542
Sales last year 0

Travel Tales...
1598864467
On hand 12
On order 0
On backorder 0

Unadjusted demand this week 12
Adjusted demand last week 11
Sales this year 140
Sales last year 342

IceCreamEmpress
12-09-2008, 10:37 PM
Since Spring Arbor is owned by Ingram, do they keep a separate tally when it comes to inventory/shipping? Or are the Spring Arbor numbers included in the overall Ingram numbers?

Ulee_Lhea
12-10-2008, 03:59 AM
So I'm guessing those 10,000 copies were either straight through Spring Arbor or a combination of Spring Arbor and Ingram sales.

Perhaps the ever-magnanimous Rush Limbaugh directed 5000+ of his listeners to Tate Publishing's online bookstore, where the young authors received 60 percent royalties on each overpriced paperback sold.

On second thought . . . nah. Probably not.

Ulee_Lhea
12-10-2008, 04:06 AM
Sorry, make that 40 percent royalties for book's sold from Tate's website. I'm still trying to wrap my head around Tate's ridonk-ulously convoluted royalty scheme.

astonwest
12-10-2008, 04:30 AM
Looking on the positive side, at least most of those titles seem to have sold far more than the quantity of 75 that's usually bantered about when discussing a certain Maryland publisher...

It would be interesting to hear from some of the referenced authors, to see how many (approximately) of these sales were due to the author's direct efforts.

saharalee
02-10-2009, 10:24 PM
I just received a contract for my book with Tate. Before I ran into this site I was reluctant about the $4000, but their marketing seemed great and worth it. Now I hear about bad editing and actual printing. Could that be true for any publisher? Or not when you're paying 4000? I'm tempted to think that if an author has to pay to get his work published, maybe he's not that good. I'm not desperate, yet. Any new thoughts?

M.R.J. Le Blanc
02-10-2009, 10:26 PM
I just received a contract for my book with Tate. Before I ran into this site I was reluctant about the $4000, but their marketing seemed great and worth it. Now I hear about bad editing and actual printing. Could that be true for any publisher? Or not when you're paying 4000? I'm tempted to think that if an author has to pay to get his work published, maybe he's not that good. I'm not desperate, yet. Any new thoughts?

Here's one: don't sign that contract and take your book elsewhere. Real publishers don't ask you for a dime. Money flows TO you, not FROM you. Look elsewhere.

CaoPaux
02-10-2009, 10:27 PM
Welcome, Sahara. I've merged your post with the existing thread on Tate. As you read through it, I expect you'll find many reasons to decline the contract.

Roger J Carlson
02-10-2009, 11:29 PM
I'm tempted to think that if an author has to pay to get his work published, maybe he's not that good. I'm not desperate, yet. Any new thoughts?If an author *has* to pay to get his work published, he or she probably isn't good enough to be published -- yet. Or maybe that book just doesn't have a market. Or maybe he or she hasn't looked hard enough for a market.

The problem is that too many authors give up too soon. Maybe they just need to submit more. Or maybe they need to take a good hard look at their work, recognize its flaws, and work on improving their skills.

At any rate, paying someone else to publish your work won't get you any attention from a real, commercial publisher. You want your first book to sell your next book and so on. That won't happen with self/vanity publishing.

AC Crispin
02-10-2009, 11:32 PM
Sahara, you need to read Writer Beware's articles about vanity publishers, POD, etc. There's also a good post on Writer Beware's blog that addresses the "If I Can Just Get it Out There" writer's myth that would be informative, too.

In most cases, the writer who chooses one of these publishers (as opposed to commercial publishers like HarperCollins, Random House, and Simon & Schuster) must pay the company to have their book printed.

POD's, vanity publishers and "self publishers" do no marketing, and their books are not carried on the shelves in bookstores, except in cases where individual authors have arranged with individual bookstore managers to carry them (often on consignment basis). Writer Beware knows of no POD "self publisher" or vanity press that has gotten any of their books national placement on bookstore shelves.

Regarding Tate Publishing...they are a Christian POD type publisher that offers three kinds of contracts to authors:

1. They report that they offer some authors both advance and royalties. Writer Beware has never heard from any author that received this kind of Tate contract.

2. Tate also offers "no advance but no payment" contracts to authors. Writer Beware has heard from one author that was offered this type of Tate contract.

3. The majority of the authors who have contacted Writer Beware after signing on with Tate were offered contracts where they were required to pay Tate $4000.00 for publishing their book.

Some authors have said very favorable things about Tate. Others have gone on record as being very unhappy.

You need to research any publisher thoroughly before submitting your work to them.

-Ann C. Crispin
Chair, Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com

herdon
02-10-2009, 11:36 PM
What Roger is saying is spot on.

Paying Tate (or anyone) $4000 to publish your book doesn't make you a bad author. It just makes you a naive business person. A great author could do the same thing simply because they don't know their way around the publishing industry and think they must pay to play.

Here is what I will add: If you cannot find a publisher for your book that doesn't ask for a fee and is willing to put the investment into the book under the belief that the book will pay off, it is far far far far far far better to put the book aside and *write a new book* rather than go with a pay-to-play publisher.

I'd also say its far better to go with an ebook publisher rather than pay out a large amount that you will probably never make back. Most ebook publishers have a print option and they don't cost you money.

The big thing to remember is that you don't need to hit a home run with your first book. Improve as a writer and write a better second book, and an even better third book, etc.

IceCreamEmpress
02-11-2009, 04:33 AM
I'm tempted to think that if an author has to pay to get his work published, maybe he's not that good.

There are times when self-publishing makes sense--if you've written, say, a very local history that you plan to sell in tourist shops and at the local historical society. Or if you often give workshops about, say, optimizing your buggy whip performance, and you plan to sell your own "Complete Guide to Buggy Whips" workbook at the workshops and through the buggy whip enthusiasts' websites and newsletters.

So there are cases in which very good books are self-published, because the audience for those books is quite limited.

The thing is that self-publishing makes sense in those cases, but vanity publishing usually doesn't. So if you do have a limited-audience kind of book, you'd still be likely to be better off doing true self-publishing than working with a vanity publisher.

Stacy Baker
02-15-2009, 05:17 AM
Good evening! Lots of banter today about whether to use Tate and lots of comments about Tate! We are always glad to chat! I would love to answer any questions you might have. In fact, if any author would like to visit with me regarding our outstanding marketing and distribution plan, by all means give me a call! My number is [redacted phone number. You can Google it, if you really wanna call -- MacAllister.]

Also, if you would like information regarding our latest marketing meeting in New York with our large press division buyer for Barnes and Noble, I would encourage you to check out our president's blog spot at http://tatepublishingpresident.blogspot.com/

Again, we would love to answer any questions you might have so feel free to give me a call today!

M.R.J. Le Blanc
02-15-2009, 05:20 AM
Hi Stacy.

May I ask if you're willing to answer questions here as opposed to a phone call?

kullervo
02-15-2009, 05:24 AM
Hi, Stacy, how come you keep charging writers to be published? Why don't you call yourselves a vanity press, which is what you are? For the record, I don't care if you charge one writer and pay the other ninety-nine, but we know it's worse than that. Why don't you quit and go work for a publisher that pays all their writers, which is how it is supposed to work? Is the money too good?

Bubastes
02-15-2009, 05:24 AM
She's baaaaaaaaaaaaaack.

BenPanced
02-15-2009, 06:59 AM
Hi, sock puppet Respond-O-Bot 9000tm, Stacy! I thought Mr. Tate said you weren't going to be posting over here any longer.

herdon
02-15-2009, 08:33 AM
Good evening! Lots of banter today about whether to use Tate and lots of comments about Tate! We are always glad to chat! I would love to answer any questions you might have. In fact, if any author would like to visit with me regarding our outstanding marketing and distribution plan, by all means give me a call! My number is xxx-xxx-xxxx.

Also, if you would like information regarding our latest marketing meeting in New York with our large press division buyer for Barnes and Noble, I would encourage you to check out our president's blog spot at ???

Again, we would love to answer any questions you might have so feel free to give me a call today!


At this point, I am honestly curious why the moderators don't delete the response and give a warning that says the next time there's a pop-in response with email/phone the user account from Tate will be banned.

It's spam, plain and simple. We delete spam around here don't we?

Birol
02-15-2009, 08:35 AM
We also encourage editors and publishers to take part in the discussions. Stacy's responses say as much about Tate as the rest of this thread does.

CaoPaux
02-15-2009, 09:07 AM
Yup, shows their true colors.

Old Hack
02-15-2009, 11:54 AM
I'm interested to know why my comments on some of Tate's many blogs have never been approved for appearance. I've not been hectoring or rude; I've not been disrespectful. I have, however, disputed some of the points they've made about the publishing industry, and pointed out how my own experiences as an editor within the publishing industry differ from their views. It seems to me that they're not interested in encouraging debate, and are only prepared to publish comments which praise them. I could be wrong, of course. But I've yet to find any comments on their blogs which DON'T agree with them....

Jersey Chick
02-15-2009, 06:41 PM
Because if they address those - they'd have to admit the truth.

Say it with me - Tate is a V-A-N-I-T-Y Publisher. As long as there are no negatives, they can claim otherwise. Sounds much like another "publisher"...

They can dance around the subjects and topics that make them uncomfortable, but it doesn't change the fact that if one of their authors has paid to be published, they are a vanity press.

herdon
02-15-2009, 07:02 PM
We also encourage editors and publishers to take part in the discussions. Stacy's responses say as much about Tate as the rest of this thread does.

No it doesn't. She says "Lots of banter today..." when there weren't any posts on that day. She doesn't give any information at all nor is she responding to anyone. The only actual information in her post is Tate's phone number and the URL of their blog.

That's called spam.

M.R.J. Le Blanc
02-15-2009, 07:15 PM
Perhaps it should be deleted as such. She's not likely to come back anyway. Maybe she was thinking people here would forget?

CaoPaux
02-15-2009, 07:55 PM
Yes, it's spam, but unless/until it becomes more frequent, we'll leave it up because 1) it gives us the opportunity to rebut for another page or two; 2) it increases this page's Google rank over their home page.

Let 'em weave their own hanging rope.

herdon
02-15-2009, 08:55 PM
Yes, it's spam, but unless/until it becomes more frequent, we'll leave it up because 1) it gives us the opportunity to rebut for another page or two; 2) it increases this page's Google rank over their home page.

Let 'em weave their own hanging rope.

It also means that anyone coming here for information on Tate and browsing through the latest messages to see if their question is answered can see the number and thing "hey, I'll just give them a call" and not pay the rest of the thread any mind.

Which is exactly why she came back to post the phone number -- to try and draw any potential customers away from this thread and onto their phone.

At the very least, the contact information should be deleted out of their response. I think we can all agree that their current responses are spam intended to leave their phone number/email for potential customers, so if you want to leave the message, why not X out the contact info?

JulieB
02-15-2009, 09:56 PM
Why not leave it? Part of the reason behind BB&C (IMO) is to allow people to make up their own minds.

My personal feeling is that if a representative of a particular company posts here then we should leave their messages intact unless they otherwise violate board rules.

BenPanced
02-15-2009, 10:33 PM
Rule mongering ain't cool, anyway. It cheeses off the mods.

All I'm saying.

M.R.J. Le Blanc
02-15-2009, 11:17 PM
Wasn't meaning to. I guess it's just my initial reaction - another group I'm a member of spam gets deleted even when it's a repeat offender. My apologies to the mods.

herdon
02-16-2009, 02:26 AM
Why not leave it? Part of the reason behind BB&C (IMO) is to allow people to make up their own minds.


That's the exact reason why it should be deleted. BB&C is here to inform people about publishers/agents and let them make up their minds. It's not here for publishers and agents to post advertisements for their businesses.

If the post had been offering up some type of new information or was in response to someone and answered their questions/concerns, that would be one thing. But there was no point to it other than to leave their phone number -- it was an advertisement.

They wouldn't be allowed to create a new post and drop their number in it requesting people to call them for more information. Allowing them to do the exact same thing simply because the thread is about their company is rather silly.

But, ultimately, its the mods decision and they seem fine to leave it up -- so be it. I'm only trying to look out for the people that Tate is trying to scam into spending 4k bucks.

Stacia Kane
02-16-2009, 04:00 AM
The problem with deleting it is if that's done, they can claim they said anything they want. "We told them the truth and they deleted it because they didn't want to hear anything but their own negativity!" or whatever. For that reason I think it's very important to leave theose posts up, exactly as they are.

Personally I think that same meaningless post, over and over again, says quite a bit about what kind of organization Tate is. If someone reading this entire thread really thinks that's an adequate response and that it's a good reason to go with Tate...we wouldn't have been able to help them anyway. *shrug*

Bubastes
02-16-2009, 04:07 AM
Personally I think that same meaningless post, over and over again, says quite a bit about what kind of organization Tate is.

I agree. The repetition of the respond-o-bot posts from Tate speaks volumes.

M.R.J. Le Blanc
02-16-2009, 05:08 AM
Wow...look what I started lol

Birol
02-16-2009, 06:36 AM
It also means that anyone coming here for information on Tate and browsing through the latest messages to see if their question is answered can see the number and thing "hey, I'll just give them a call" and not pay the rest of the thread any mind.

People still have free will.

MNHRAIDS
02-16-2009, 08:29 AM
I just wanted to thank the wonderful people here on AW for saving me the pain of getting caught up with a Vanity Press such as Tate. I am a new writer to the scene, and know very little about the process of getting an agent, and then finding a publisher.

I have done hours upon hours of research about the publishing format to accuire more knowledge of what I need to do to properly take the steps to get my foot in the door of the industry. Not to mention that I have glanced over almost every single thread that has been posted on AW, well not quite every thread, but close.

I almost got caught up in the fact of thinking that a new author would have to pay to play. I have learned so much from AW and from all of the fantastic, knowledgable people that post in here which saved my from making that mistake.

Thank you all so much for being here for new writers like myself, you are all really saving us from alot of heartache, not to mention having lighter wallets. Without you all, I would have walked right into Tate Publishings open money door.

Being so new, the only thing I can advise to someone as new as myself to writing and to the pitfalls of the publishing industry is, do your reasearch and study this site intently, the people here know of what they speak. Again guys, thanks alot, and I will be posting my query on SYW in the next couple of weeks for critique.

Queen of Swords
02-16-2009, 05:45 PM
I just wanted to thank the wonderful people here on AW for saving me the pain of getting caught up with a Vanity Press such as Tate.

Yay! Always good to see a writer avoid something which would have wasted their time and effort. :)

Just think, Stacy, what if each time you post your spiel, someone else also posts to say how grateful they are that they're not with your vanity press?

brainstorm77
02-16-2009, 07:08 PM
I think and would hope everyone got the point with this thread.. Vanity is vanity no matter how you try and get around and ignore it.

victoriastrauss
02-16-2009, 07:36 PM
Coming in a bit late (I was away this weekend) to address the spam issue....

As one of the moderators of this forum, I think it's important to let everyone have their say, including the companies/people who are the subjects of discussion. I don't believe in shaping the discussion by selective deletion of opposiing or alternative viewpoints; I also don't believe in trying to save gullible writers from themselves by selective removal of information. If someone wants to call Tate as a result of seeing its phone number in this thread, that's their prerogative--just as it's their prerogative to not call Tate as a result of reading the info here. The information is here and accessible; what people choose to do with it is their own affair.

Also, as others have pointed out, the responses of the companies/people we discuss are often more revealing than anything that can be reported or said about them. As part of Tate's campaign to counteract what they see as negative discussion of them, Stacy's posts are quite instructive, IMO.

- Victoria

michaelthek
02-20-2009, 12:06 AM
I am just curious. As I read all these postings I began to ask myself one simple question. According to what I understand Tate Publishing only accepts a small percentage of that which is submitted to them. My question is has anyone every been turned down by them? No one has mentioned that here. I don't wish to be a cynic but you would think someone would have mentioned that so I was just curious.

I will say that I'm a very trusting sole and as such I don't believe in negative comments from others. Sure there are those who may wish to express their thoughts and experiences for the benefit of others but when those expressions reach beyond that of simple information to that of trying to prove themself to others, that's where I lose interest. Justification is only a big word for lying. You don't have to justify the truth. For those who have bad things to say about others I can only say that which my beloved parish priest once told me. I am sure he didn't make it up but I heard it there first... "When you point a finger at someone you point three back at yourself..."

Believe only that which you see and have faith in that which you believe.

brainstorm77
02-20-2009, 12:16 AM
well then by all means send them something and see if you get accepted and are pleased when all is done. Be sure to tell us your experience.

Roger J Carlson
02-20-2009, 12:22 AM
I am just curious. As I read all these postings I began to ask myself one simple question. According to what I understand Tate Publishing only accepts a small percentage of that which is submitted to them. My question is has anyone every been turned down by them? No one has mentioned that here. I don't wish to be a cynic but you would think someone would have mentioned that so I was just curious.
First of all, where did you hear that Tate only accepts a small percentage of submissions? I'm not challenging it, just asking. If that's true, and no one here reports being rejected, what does that suggest to you?

AnneMarble
02-20-2009, 01:28 AM
I am just curious. As I read all these postings I began to ask myself one simple question. According to what I understand Tate Publishing only accepts a small percentage of that which is submitted to them. My question is has anyone every been turned down by them? No one has mentioned that here. I don't wish to be a cynic but you would think someone would have mentioned that so I was just curious.
There are a number of vanity presses that reject some percentage of the submissions they receive. That doesn't mean that they are selective. It only means that they might reject books that are, say, handwritten (yes, publishers still get handwritten manuscripts), or hate speech, etc. Also, they have a limited number of slots to fill. When they receive more books than they can accept, they will reject some.

I will say that I'm a very trusting sole and as such I don't believe in negative comments from others. Sure there are those who may wish to express their thoughts and experiences for the benefit of others but when those expressions reach beyond that of simple information to that of trying to prove themself to others, that's where I lose interest. Justification is only a big word for lying. You don't have to justify the truth. For those who have bad things to say about others I can only say that which my beloved parish priest once told me. I am sure he didn't make it up but I heard it there first... "When you point a finger at someone you point three back at yourself..."
Saying something negative about a publisher doesn't mean that someone is being mean. It's vital for writers to be able to express negative thoughts, concerns about a publisher, etc. It's an important part of writing. When people print warnings about a press, it's because they are worried that other writers might get taken. That's their motivation.

Otherwise, what do you think their motives could be? Do you think they're trying to keep new writers from getting ahead? In that case, why would they have this forum? Why would they volunteer so much time on the other forums of Absolute Write or on other sites? (They even help other writers critique their work, etc.)

Believe only that which you see and have faith in that which you believe.
Faith is important, but writers of any faith still have a responsibility to themselves to be careful. Your book is important to you, right? So why not make sure it gets the best publisher possible?

If you want suggestions of good Christian publishers you can submit to, why not ask some questions in AW's Christian Writing Forum (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40)? The members there are active, helpful, etc.

victoriastrauss
02-20-2009, 02:05 AM
First of all, where did you hear that Tate only accepts a small percentage of submissions?
Tate claims this on its website (http://www.tatepublishing.com/information.php): "In 2008, we accepted only a single-digit percentage of the manuscripts submitted for publication."

(Their output for 2008 was 1,244 books (http://tinyurl.com/baotnb).)

I've never heard from an author who was rejected by Tate.

- Victoria

Queen of Swords
02-20-2009, 03:00 AM
For those who have bad things to say about others I can only say that which my beloved parish priest once told me.

Sometimes those bad things are called warnings. I am very glad that there are warnings in the world of writing just as there are warnings in other spheres of life (e.g. don't invest money in pyramid schemes, don't invest money in vanity presses).

But if you are a "very trusting sole" and don't wish to believe anything bad or negative, then may I ask how you propose to protect your work and your money from scams and vanity presses? Assuming you believe that there actually are scams and vanity presses (and also assuming that you wish to avoid these).

kullervo
02-20-2009, 05:26 AM
Assuming you're a trusting soul and not a credulous flatfish, I would respond with that other old chestnut about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

michaelthek
02-20-2009, 03:28 PM
I wish to apologize to all. I wish not to get into lengthy debates which is really what I simply wished to express. I agree that each should always express his/her own thoughts with regard to any information that may be helpful to others. I only disagree with the tone of so many of the notes where there are actual arguments taking place. I appreciate the candor of the original thoughts but don't think arguing to prove one self right accomplishes much that is positive.

I thank you all for the information you have related and hope that the main thoughts don't get lost. I think the most important thoughts are the simplest thoughts. Again, I only wait to hear from someone who has been rejected by Tate, there must be thousands of people based on the numbers they post on their website. That, or the lack thereof, may actually say more than all the debating in the world.

brainstorm77
02-20-2009, 03:31 PM
I don't think this area of AW is about being right or wrong. Its about having information given to you. However each person uses it is their own choice. I for one find it great to have it available to me.

M.R.J. Le Blanc
02-20-2009, 04:55 PM
Again, I only wait to hear from someone who has been rejected by Tate, there must be thousands of people based on the numbers they post on their website. That, or the lack thereof, may actually say more than all the debating in the world.

Your last sentence is spot on. See Michael, just because someone's website says something it doesn't automatically mean it's true. Vanity publishers lie on their websites all the time. I've learned the hard way not to take anything at face value, but there's nothing wrong with a healthy open-minded skepticism. Or at least a fair bit of wariness.

michaelthek
03-10-2009, 09:21 PM
It's been darn near a month... Still waiting for someone to come forth and admit to being turned down by Tate...

M.R.J. Le Blanc
03-10-2009, 10:22 PM
I think, given everything in this thread, relying on hearing of someone who was rejected is irrelevant. There are whole slew of reasons not to go with Tate - whether they've rejected anyone or not seems the least of the concerns. As Anne Marble said earlier in this thread, vanities rejecting mss doesn't mean they're selective. Just like having one or two books do well amidst a sea of ones who don't doesn't validate a vanity either. Especially since in most cases those books that do do well with a vanity are the result of the author's efforts, not the publisher.

rhp1
03-21-2009, 05:34 PM
i am glad i found this thread back in sept . i helped me make my decision not to sign with tate music group. after all, what record label signs a band based on one mp3 song submission ? tate music group does! it was way to easy to have a contract rushed to me . they had no idea who i was, they only had one song sample, no bio, no pics, no schedule, no info except my name ,email and one recording. hardly enough information for them to base a sound business decision .

they claimed they would invest over $22,000 into my career with them.

that's alot of money to being thrown at a faceless mp3 song submission.

but they needed $2000 from me to get things rolling.

that made it pretty clear to as why it is so easy to get on the tate roster, they are more interested in my money then my talent.

one of their artist just recently had a fall out with tate , check out for yourself on how the company deals with this unsuspecting client.

http://www.audiostreet.net/forums.aspx?m=topic&tid=836&p=4&s=top

Roger J Carlson
03-21-2009, 06:13 PM
i am glad i found this thread back in sept . i helped me make my decision not to sign with tate music group. after all, what record label signs a band based on one mp3 song submission ? tate music group does! it was way to easy to have a contract rushed to me . they had no idea who i was, they only had one song sample, no bio, no pics, no schedule, no info except my name ,email and one recording. hardly enough information for them to base a sound business decision .

they claimed they would invest over $22,000 into my career with them.

that's alot of money to being thrown at a faceless mp3 song submission.

but they needed $2000 from me to get things rolling.

that made it pretty clear to as why it is so easy to get on the tate roster, they are more interested in my money then my talent.

one of their artist just recently had a fall out with tate , check out for yourself on how the company deals with this unsuspecting client.

http://www.audiostreet.net/forums.aspx?m=topic&tid=836&p=4&s=topInteresting to note they use much the same tactics on music boards as they do here. Thanks for the link.

James D. Macdonald
03-22-2009, 12:03 AM
Even PublishAmerica turns down books because there aren't enough hours in the day to publish them all.

Mr.H.
03-23-2009, 11:19 PM
I am very concerned, and I feel the need to vent/share my concerns with others here, if I may please.
The Tate issue is what it is, and we all know what it is. It was enlightening to read the musicians' sides of the story as well, and to see that it is not only us.

That said,
I have a headache from reading the posts at the audiostreet blog. And I am sad. Literacy is indeed dead, and printed communication has become a joke. The very thing I love and prize most lies in waste over there, and indeed, at many other forums of open discussion. Readers are exposed to incorrect usage of the language, and repeat what they see elsewhere when they themselves post. Worse, the readership of blog posts is exponentially higher than that of a good book.
Sad.
How do we compete with that?

*sigh*

Ok, back to the matter at hand; Tate.

rhp1
03-24-2009, 01:14 AM
don't sweat it Mr. H :) yea there is a lot of bad spelling going on over there, and incorrect usage of our language, but we are just blogging not writing books. quickly jotting down our thoughts and trying to get our point across. following the rules of the english language is not a priority in a lot of forums, but i get where your coming from, sloppy writing to u is like sloppy performed music to me.

i did start the thread over there , and i hope the audiostreet forum helps musicians make the right decision concerning tate, i truly feel they are trying to take advantage of peoples dreams.

Mr.H.
03-24-2009, 10:54 PM
Yes, I admit that people quickly jotting their thoughts down in a blog don't usually take the time to think about grammar. And I agree wholeheartedly with your point about the good work at audiostreet and the intent of the posts there. The meat of the material is not what I have issue with, and I appreciate all of it.

My issue is one of automaticity. I would like to think that getting it right would be the natural trend. No one is immune from mistakes, I know I make them daily. And I am not the editor of all people's work, nor could I claim to be. But as an educator trying my best to help people learn the correct way to do it, and then seeing blatant disregard for correct language usage under the guise of "it doesn't matter here" really gets to me. It matters everywhere. What we produce for an audience to read is a reflection on ourselves and our abilities. When I read such poorly written works as those, I draw my conclusions about the people behind them. How can I not?
No one will read my words and think me a genius, which I am far from. But no one with an education will read my words and think I have none. I wish more people cared enough to at least try to get it right.

This is a rant for a different area of the forum, not this one, and for that I apologize.

Where were we?
Oh yes, Tate! Boo!!!

rhp1
03-25-2009, 03:26 AM
no prob Mr. H , i respect your point of view.

Brianne at TMG
03-27-2009, 09:57 PM
This is Dr. Richard Tate, founder of Tate Publishing and Enterprises. I would be glad to have a personal conversation with you regarding your questions. It would surprise me if
you called, but feel free to. 1-888-361-9473 or my email is richard@tatepublishing.com

Dr. Richard Tate

rhp1
03-29-2009, 12:08 AM
again, no thank you mr tate, i think the readers of my thread would like to know what % of your roster sold enough cd's to get their investment back. it would surprise me if you answered the questions i posted at audiostreet.

Lion of War
09-17-2009, 10:19 PM
Although it is beneath the dignity of the company and the authors to reply to some of this, I will instead write about my own experience and let authors decide themselves.

My name is Cliff Graham. I live in San Antonio, TX, and am a real author, not a Tate Publishing "crony." I published my first book with them, "Call of Duty," in 2008. The process went exactly according to how it was presented to me, with neither rosy promises nor cynicism. It has done just fine for a nonfiction title written by an author with no national platform for a niche market.

Based upon the quality of my second book, a novel about King David's Mighty Men titled, "Day of War," I was offered a different and more personally beneficial contract than the author investment contract I initially paid. This was unsolicited and a pleasant surprise, as my first book had only been out for a few months when I submitted the second manuscript. So Tate took a risk on me. An actual financial risk on an unknown author. That sounds a lot like traditional publishing, right?

Everything went great, from acquisitions to editing. The book was selected as a Top Pick for special presentation to buyers at Barnes and Noble in New York City. Tate, along with every other publisher, picks the books that they believe will be the most marketable and presents them to these buyers. I had no say in that process, nor did I pay anything for it.

That pushed the release date of the book to September 29, 2009, six months later than I initially thought. Which was fine, because the Barnes and Noble buyer did indeed pick up the title for regional distribution in Texas. That means that on or near the release date, the book will be on actual store shelves in Barnes and Noble. If it is successful there, they will pick it up for broader distribution.

Things took an interesting turn when the filmmaker David L. Cunningham (The Path to 9/11, To End all Wars) read my book (after coming across my website, http://www.lionofwar.com). He loved it so much that he contacted Tate Publishing immediately for the film rights. I as the author own all the rights to the book, so they put him through to me after carefully screening to make sure he was who he said he was.

Cunningham brought me up to Dallas where he was working on a project and we had a meeting that lasted several hours, during which he communicated his vision for the film and for the rest of the books in the series. I left the meeting convinced that he was the right guy to make the movie.

On August 24, 2009, I signed a six-figure option deal for the rights to my book (no I am not instantly rich, it takes time for money to be doled out in the film industry). Representatives from Tate Publishing helped me incalculably along the way. I was assisted by attorneys as well. It is in the very early phase of development, but progress has been swift. There will be a press release in Daily Variety (The Wall street Journal of Hollywood) in the coming weeks with the names of the people attached and involved in development. Please look for it either in print or at www.variety.com (http://www.variety.com), and look for the line about "published by Tate Publishing."

Individuals involved during this process were:
Director/Producer David L. Cunningham
United Talent Agency representatives Ramses IsHak and Mike Sheresky.
Attorney Patti Felker (the 2008 Entertainment Attorney of the Year)
Tate Publishing Marketing Representative Jim Miller
Tate Publishing Marketing Director Mark Mingle

All of this, and the book has not even officially released yet.

I am currently finishing the second novel in the series that Cunningham and his production partners are developing into a major motion picture franchise. Throughout the process, all of those involved on the film side were complimentary of the professionalism and competence of Tate Publishing staff.

As a result of this new exposure, I have been in contact with various agencies and "traditional" publishers (as they define it) seeking to represent or publish the remaining books in the series through their channels. I intend to stay with Tate Publishing, because they are the future of the industry. I don't want to leap out of the battleship for a luxury suite on the Titanic.

I say things so matter-of-fact because it is important to deal with facts when you are trying to be heard amidst the whining of people of questionable intent. I write a blog about the experiences of the Tate author as I know them, http://www.tateauthors.blogspot.com I encourage you to read it if you are a prospective author considering Tate Publishing. It's designed to be somewhat of a rebuttal to much of this madness in the discourse concerning Tate Publishing.

You can email me directly at tateauthors@gmail.com with questions of any kind.

Many authors already have, and I have been able to counsel them on whether Tate is the right option for them. Everyone on this board assumes that Tate offers every author at least the investment option, but that is not true. I have had to speak with authors who have been turned down by Tate, as their book did not justify the considerable resources spent on each title.


Please follow my blog for information about the further experiences of this Tate Author.

Momento Mori
09-18-2009, 03:30 AM
Hi, Cliff and welcome to AW.

Lion of War:
Based upon the quality of my second book, a novel about King David's Mighty Men titled, "Day of War," I was offered a different and more personally beneficial contract than the author investment contract I initially paid. This was unsolicited and a pleasant surprise, as my first book had only been out for a few months when I submitted the second manuscript. So Tate took a risk on me. An actual financial risk on an unknown author. That sounds a lot like traditional publishing, right?

Just to clarify, by "actual financial risk on an unknown author" do you mean that Tate paid you an advance for your second book, or were you offered a second author investment contract where you contributed less money than for the first book?

With regards to the remaining books in your series, will Tate be paying an advance for them or will you remain on author investment contracts?

Lion of War:
It's designed to be somewhat of a rebuttal to much of this madness in the discourse concerning Tate Publishing.

If you read through this thread you'll see how much "madness in the discourse concerning Tate Publishing" came from Tate Publishing itself. However that's by-the-by.

Whilst you've achieved a wonderful result for your work (for which I sincerely congratulate you), the possibility of author investment contracts becoming "the future of the industry" fills me with alarm. This is because it is a system that is open to appalling abuse of would-be authors (if a publisher is receiving money from an author, then there is a potential disincentive to maintain quality control) who could find themselves considerably out of pocket as a result of going down this route when the risks have not been adequately explained to them.

One of the major concerns raised time and time again on this thread (concerns that were never fully responded to by Tate) was that so few authors seemed to be hitting the sales figures necessary for the return of their initial outlay - an outlay that was a considerable sum.

If, as you seem to be saying, Tate are now achieving stock and distribution deals with stores like Barnes and Noble, then this represents a significant improvement and at least goes someway to giving authors a chance to recoup that outlay. Previously though, there were questions about Tate's ability to get books into stores, with many authors apparently having to go down the convention and self-sale route to try and hit the targets necessary to make back their outlay.

Although your achievement of selling the film rights is wonderful, it is nevertheless one that came about by chance. By your own admission, David Cunningham found your website and then read your book. Usually, film makers and production companies will be aware of books coming out onto the market because of promotional activities being undertaken by publishers or through keeping tabs on sales being made within the book industry and the level of "talk" that those deals are creating.

I applaud Tate for supporting you in the negotiation process, but would point out that it was naturally very much in their interest to do so.

Lion of War:
You can email me directly at tateauthors@gmail.com with questions of any kind.

Would you be prepared to answer questions on this thread? If you could do so, then it would be a useful resource for people trying to make up their mind whether to go with the company and go some way to providing a different experience to previous posters.

Lion of War:
Everyone on this board assumes that Tate offers every author at least the investment option, but that is not true. I have had to speak with authors who have been turned down by Tate, as their book did not justify the considerable resources spent on each title.

That's good to know as it suggests that Tate has no intention of turning into an author mill.

Best of luck with your future work.

MM

III
09-18-2009, 06:05 PM
A bald, Christian fiction author from San Antonio? Sounds like a great guy to me.

Mr.H.
09-18-2009, 09:50 PM
Lion of War;
If I owned a company, I would want you to be my PR guy! The positivity that flows from you regarding your experience with Tate, as well as Tate itself, is applaudable.

I also read through the posts on the forum you mentioned, and again, it is the same thing. It's as if nothing bad has happened to you. You have tremendous luck, no doubt augmented by personal ability.

Ever the skeptic, however, I got hung up on a few phrases that sounded as if Tate fed them to you to use with us here. I could be wrong, and often am, but it resonated with me a bit. Then I noticed your email address. YOUR email address. That sounds to me like someone who is more than just a little happy with a company. Thrilled as I am with my kitchen appliances, I would never establish an email address like Kenmoreguy@gmail.com unless Kenmore was paying me to do so.

If you've read the posts in the previous 39 pages of this thread, you see that several times a variety of employees of Tate have chimed in from time to time, and at first blush, that was what this looked like to me. Taking your words at face value, I see that this is not the case. Good. But one wonders of the motivation to gush so openly about a company without some sort of vested interest.

I offer my most heartfelt congratulations to you on your positive experience, and wish the same for many more authors. It's not that I'm a conspiracy theorist or anything; I just wonder why, after so many opportunities have been presented here, on this open forum, for Tate (or any of its cheerleaders) to directly answer the questions that others here have posted, no answers have been given. That casts a huge doubt-shadow for the rest of us. That's all we want.

As to you personally, I am thrilled to hear Tate was good to you, and I wish you continued success.

Gravity
09-18-2009, 10:01 PM
In Lion's defense, the email addy he provided is a gmail account. I know when I've set these up, they're for a one-off reason, and then they're never looked at again. It could be he set his up just to field questions from his post here. That's what I'd do, and keep my own website with its "contact" page separate.

Stacy Baker
09-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Dear Sunnie and Dr. Tate:

Just to inform you that I received a personal, very complimentary letter from Joni Eareckson Tada regarding me and my book. I sent her a copy at her request in early summer of this year. She said she is keeping her copy of my book on her desk so as to be able to refer to the poetry which she especially liked, it seems. She also sent me a personal cheque to pay for a book and its shipping charge to a friend of hers who suffers from mental illness in the Netherlands. She called my book "very special".

I have also been invited to Christian Writers' Expo to be held at Faith Family Books and Gifts, the local Christian bookstore on November 20, 2009. I am one of only 20 authors invited. A representative of the store also told me that they have reviewed my book and want 5 copies to put on the shelves there.

Just wanted to give you some good news re: my book, /Hope for the Heavy
Heart: For the War-Weary and Heaven-bent. / Thank you again Dr. Tate for taking a chance on me and my book. Maybe there is still a chance yet that it will take off, who knows??? God bless.

In Christ,
E.R.

Richard White
09-18-2009, 10:45 PM
For those who might not have read through this entire thread, Stacy Baker is a Tate Employee.

I note she failed to mention she was shilling for her company here.

BenPanced
09-18-2009, 10:51 PM
Oh, yeah. We noticed that Dr. Tate had made a post stating that Ms. Baker is not authorized to post here any longer.
sockpuppet
But here she is.
sockpuppet
Again.
sockpuppet
If my supervisor found out I was visiting websites I'd been expressly banned from visiting, I'd be out the door.
sockpuppet
But this appears to be a unique situation.sockpuppet

Richard White
09-18-2009, 11:14 PM
Ben,

I also found it interesting that my book (which has been out of print since 1995) has a higher Amazon ranking than a number of Tate's boosk that were released this past year.

While Amazon numbers are "flaky", I still found it interesting.

I mean seriously, how does an out-of-print book get a 700K ranking?

Queen of Swords
09-19-2009, 12:29 AM
What's the latest on Shane Hamman, Stacy? Has he submitted a manuscript to Tate yet, after you supposedly paid him an advance or a signing bonus of $20,000 over two years ago?

Still nothing about his book on Amazon... but regarding the book in the email that Stacy posted, I checked it out on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Hope-Heavy-Heart-Ellen-Richardson/dp/1606049119/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253304101&sr=1-1). It was released on February 24, 2009, and has a sales rank of well over 4 million. No reader reviews.

I'm not surprised that at the end of that email, the author expresses a hope that there is a still a chance for the book to "take off". But if she paid Tate Publishing, then there was no way Tate was "taking a chance" on her.

Some of those statements in that email were echoes of what I've read on the PublishAmerica message board as well. And it gave me a chance to look up what I assume is a typical Tate product. Thanks for posting it, Stacy!

rejectME
09-19-2009, 05:34 AM
Even PA thinks it's amusing that Tate uses Google Adsense to advertise...

Lion of War
09-22-2009, 01:43 AM
In a quick answer to a few of the above posts (thank you for the civility, everyone), I'm not a company employee or PR guy. And my experience with Tate was not perfect, but then again, my experience with the Dallas Cowboys has never been perfect. But they're still my team. I do think it is phony and unnecessary when people say nothing but cheery happy sunshine, especially all of us starving writers. But Tate is legitimate.

I attempted to direct everyone to my blog which was designed for this purpose since I don't have the time to keep checking these different writer's sites. I also provided an email address: tateauthors@gmail.com No, of course it's not my personal email address. I created it to answer questions like these if potential authors had them. If you would email that address with such questions, I would happily answer them, and have.

Yes, I have benefited from extraordinarily good fortune, but many other books have as well. Movies are made all the time from obscure titles and authors.

I did not want to mention the exact details of my contract with Tate because it is personal. I understand your frustration if that isn't enough for you, but I hope you can see things from my perspective. I published the movie info because that will become public knowledge anyway soon enough. All I am attempting to do is share my personal story of how Tate has been good to me.

It is certainly possible that authors have had horrible experiences with Tate, but again, according to my own experience, it seems like it is the exception to the rule. They are kind people. Dr. Tate always answered my phone calls even before I found any success. And by "success," I'm not pretending there is riches rolling in. I have a great movie contract, but I still need to promote my book.

Again, I don't pretend that everything is perfect. I have had some difficulties here and there, but publishing is a difficult business. I had some trouble with the cover art, but it was corrected. There was an error in manuscript formatting, but that was corrected as well. Every time that I had an issue, it was always corrected. That's why I am such a big fan of these guys and why I think they can really help out unknown authors. Yea, sure, the basic contract is unconventional, but these are unconventional times.

Last note: If you hate them this badly, then don't publish with them. If you're convinced they are evil and out to deceive writers, I simply disagree with that. I have not encountered anything like that in my time with them through two books.

Why do I take the time to do this? I just wanted to be one more voice that spoke on their behalf, and in the event that anyone is reading this because they Googled "Tate Publishing," I wanted to present one more side.

As far as an ongoing dialogue on this board, I will do my best, but I don't normally do this type of thing. After I am done with my own writing and blog updating, I don't often get around to checking forums. Although I do believe this forum is a valuable one, as long as everyone is civil.

Thanks and best of luck to everyone. Please, again, email me at the address provided if you are interested in seeking answers and I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Queen of Swords
09-22-2009, 03:35 AM
I attempted to direct everyone to my blog which was designed for this purpose

This forum was also designed to discuss various publishers and agents, which is why I like to comment here.

There was an error in manuscript formatting, but that was corrected as well. Every time that I had an issue, it was always corrected. That's why I am such a big fan of these guys and why I think they can really help out unknown authors.

I'm not sure how this signifies that Tate can "help out" debut writers or unknown authors, since commercial publishers would also correct whatever errors arose during formatting.

In fact, from the email that Stacy Baker so kindly posted, it seems that the unknown author in the email is still an unknown author, going by the sales rank, the lack of reviews, and the author's hope that the book will somehow take off.

Yea, sure, the basic contract is unconventional, but these are unconventional times.

Every time in history has been unconventional in some way.

Last note: If you hate them this badly, then don't publish with them.

I won't, since I don't have $4000 to hand over to them.

And I'm always puzzled by people who imply that criticism of a vanity press = hatred of that press. Isn't it all possible, from your perspective, to write critically about something while feeling indifference or at the most dislike?

If you're convinced they are evil and out to deceive writers, I simply disagree with that. I have not encountered anything like that in my time with them through two books.

I think words like "madness", "hate" and "evil" are overly emotive and don't contribute to reasoned discussion. I don't think anyone here hates your publisher. However, I have seen representatives of Tate make and repeat at least one very unconvincing claim, and their posts on this thread come off as less than professional to me.

Old Hack
09-22-2009, 11:33 AM
I attempted to direct everyone to my blog which was designed for this purpose.

A better place for us to be able to ask questions about Tate Publishing would, of course, be Tate Publishing's own blog. Everything would be out in the open, available to people who were interested in Tate, and we'd get answers direct from Tate, which would, of course, be the best way for us to go.

Sadly, the people behind Tate's blogs (and I think there are several) don't seem to approve many of the comments that are left there, and so those comments never appear. I left a few comments which questioned a few of their assertions about "traditional" publishing which, based on my quarter-century of working in the business, I knew to be incorrect. I was perfectly respectful and polite: but Tate didn't approve a single one of my comments.

When I read through their blogs I couldn't find a single comment which criticised themm or questioned their assertions or methods. They do, however, seem to approve comments which praise and promote them. Funny, that.

Stacia Kane
09-22-2009, 07:44 PM
Not to mention that when I looked, Lion of War's blog was not open to comments, period.

eqb
09-22-2009, 08:30 PM
Not to mention that when I looked, Lion of War's blog was not open to comments, period.

I just checked, and it's still closed to comments.

michael_b
09-22-2009, 09:28 PM
One 'rule of writing' I always keep in mind is that money flows from the publisher to the author, not the other way around.

Stacy Baker
10-05-2009, 09:11 AM
For those who are interested, we are waiting on the manuscript from Shane Hamman as of this posting. If anyone has further questions regarding publishing with Tate Publishing, please feel free to call me, Stacy Baker, at 888-361-9473. You may also ask to speak with Dr. Richard Tate. We look forward to answering any questions you may have!

Queen of Swords
10-05-2009, 12:45 PM
Hi Stacy, and thanks for your latest drive-by posting.

For those who are interested, we are waiting on the manuscript from Shane Hamman as of this posting.

"Tate publishing does give advances but those authors have star appeal, they have name recognition. For example: Shane Hamman, two time Olympian and currently the strongest man in the world. He rec’d a $20,000 advance." -- Leon R. Mentzer (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1769864&postcount=166), 10-30-2007

So you've been waiting two years for a manuscript that you paid $20,000 for? I wonder how much time Shane Hamman's contract gave him to send his manuscript to Tate.

Let us know when (or if) you finally receive it.

Richard White
10-05-2009, 08:29 PM
I guess Dr. Tate's statement that Tate employees would no longer post here only applies to ANSWERING questions . . . not using the board for fly-by advertising spam.

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 12:28 AM
Has anyone heard of them ? Bad or good. They are now accepting manuscripts. just thinking about it and thought I would ask.

Medievalist
10-11-2009, 12:37 AM
Check for a thread next time, first. Look here for Tate publishing. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792)

Parametric
10-11-2009, 12:49 AM
Has anyone heard of them ? Bad or good. They are now accepting manuscripts. just thinking about it and thought I would ask.

Wanda, as someone who follows the PublishAmerica threads where you post, may I give you some advice?

You know the proverb, "Give a man a fish and you feed him tonight, teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry again"? Right now, you are like that hungry person who wants to eat fish. You're a writer who is hungry for publishers. So you want us to give you a fish - a publisher. But if we give you this fish, this publisher, you will only be fed tonight.

What you really need to say is, "Teach me to fish." You need to learn how to tell for yourself whether Tate is a good publisher.

Then you'll never be hungry again.

Start by reading all the stickies on this forum, and the Writer Beware site (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/)and blog (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/), and you might want to do what I did and read every post on every thread in the Bewares & Background Checks forum for as long as you can possibly stand. Read until you can look at the Tate website and instantly see why it is not a good publisher for you. (Clue: Who is the front page aimed at? Is it readers, or writers? Why is that a bad thing?)

Go forth and feed thyself. :)

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 12:57 AM
CAN I JUST THROW THIS IN? After i posted a thread about this company not knowing this was here, i went to their site and thats where I seen the 4,000 . This is a commonsense statement, Wouldnt that mean that if you give them 4,000 that youa re still self publishing your own book? hats no better than Pa. At least we didnt give them that money at all.

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 12:57 AM
You would have to sell alot of books to get your 4,000 back. alot of books and i doubt that they were different than Pa

Gravity
10-11-2009, 07:11 AM
Agreed. Wanda, it's time for you to start seeing these things for yourself. Otherwise you might as well paint a "take my money" sign on you.

Okay, here's a very simple way to get a quick idea on any enterprise, publishing or agent or whatever: Google (name of thing)+scam. See what pops up.

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 07:19 AM
oh yeah, I found out that they charge you 4,000 up front after going to their site and receiving a email from them. Is that not worse than what pa does? or the same thing and just more money to print our own books. Might as well say thats what we are doing, we could do that without them. And these people are suppposed to be christian people and theya re ripping off people. dont think so.they are no different than Pa except they charge more money upfront to do it than them.

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 07:19 AM
One more to axe and grind in the shredder that we dont need.

veinglory
10-11-2009, 07:41 AM
You can self publish for $4000 (Tate), or for free (Lulu, Createspace etc) and produce a similar product with a similar cover price.

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 05:18 PM
IS LULU and createspace like PA? or worse?someone is getting 20,000? ge wish someone would offer us more money to begin with.

Eirin
10-11-2009, 05:42 PM
IS LULU and createspace like PA? or worse?someone is getting 20,000?

Wanda, you don't actually read for comprehension, do you?

You really need to learn how to do research and evaluate information, else you're gonna be a sitting duck for every scammer ever born.
There is an amazing amount of knowledge available on these boards, but you have to dig in and apply some critical thinking.

ge wish someone would offer us more money to begin with.When you have a salable product - then someone might well offer you money for it. Not before.

wanda45451964
10-11-2009, 06:10 PM
if we all had 4,000 we could do it ourselfves,not give it to Tate P. to do it.

Gravity
10-11-2009, 08:15 PM
I give up. I simply give up. Best of luck to you, Wanda. God knows you're going to need it.

AC Crispin
10-11-2009, 09:40 PM
Dear Wanda:

I've seen your posts, first on the Strategic Book Publishing thread, then on the PublishAmerica thread, and now here on the Tate Publishing thread. You've been posting for weeks now. In every case, your posts contain serious grammatical errors. I mean major English usage errors that, if they exist in your query letters or manuscripts, would instantly eliminate you from consideration if any legit publisher received a query or submission from you.

But, as far as I can tell, you have never yet stumbled onto the name of a REAL publishing company. Like the song says, you're looking for love in all the wrong places.

Writers on the Absolute Write boards have given you lots and lots of advice, including the suggestion that you take remedial English and learn correct grammar before considering querying, much less submitting, your manuscript. As far as I can tell, you've ignored all such suggestions.

Let ME make a suggestion, Wanda. Re-read all that advice given to you by experienced writers on these writers message boards. Take a deep breath. Quit rampaging around, desperately trying to find a legitimate publisher to submit to, without even knowing what one IS.

Instead, take six months off to learn proper English and rewrite your manuscript. Then take two or three months to read up on publishing, and how real publishing works, so you don't continue to beseige these message boards with clueless posts requesting information you should be able to find for yourself -- posts written in such poor English that it's painful for us to read them.

I'm sorry, I know this post is not pleasant to read. But you've been flailing around now for weeks, and you simply aren't listening when people try to clue you in on how publishing works, and what kind of submissions are appropriate, and ready to submit. (Ones that are grammatical and well-written, in other words.)

I wish you the best of luck on this. I'm sorry to have to be so blunt. But you seem incapable of taking even broad hints on how to proceed. So I decided to just tell you the bald truth.

Take care,

-Ann C. Crispin

stormie
10-11-2009, 10:41 PM
if we all had 4,000 we could do it ourselfves,not give it to Tate P. to do it.
No. Even if you had $4,000 you should never, ever give it to a publisher. Even self-publishing doesn't cost that much.

Wanda, please see if a local school or even a library has remedial language arts. That's reading comprehension, grammar, and spelling, that you can sign up for. That's your first step in becoming a good writer.