Polygamist raid

[brittanimae]

Hi there :)

I'm new to the P&CE page, but I wanted to post about this polygamist thing going on in Texas.

I, for one, am completely flabbergasted that in all the news coverage I've seen nobody has said much about how completely the rights of these people in this community are being trampled. They obviously choose to live a lifestyle that is not shared by their Texan neighbors. Apparently there was one phone call reporting physical violence. I'm not in favor of physical violence, of course, but I think it is outrageous that their entire community has been stormed and women and children taken into custody based on one unsubstantiated phone call.

Why doesn't anyone react this way to the unbearable violence in our inner-cities? Why are these people being persecuted?

WHAT IS GOING ON THERE??? WHY ISN'T ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING!! They have every right to live a life without television and crayons if they choose! I am floored. Thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/07/texas.ranch/index.html

[William Haskins]

the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

in texas, children under 16 can't get married, even with parental permission, without a court order.

if the complaint is valid, the man is a rapist. i don't give a shit who he worships.

that said, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn violent.

[TerzaRima]

They have every right to live a life without television and crayons if they choose!

Sure, but they don't have a right to institutionalized sexual abuse.

[brittanimae]

See, and I gotta say, I haven't seen any evidence of institutionalized sexual abuse, nor have I seen anyone even suggest that such evidence exists.

What I have seen is people from different places and different situations entirely from the one being discussed being asked their opinion about what they think might be going on. This should not be happening without a case built on evidence. If the evidence is there, it should not be that hard to gather. To go in and remove people from their homes and families without that evidence is not cool with me.

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.

[DWSTXS]

the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

in texas, children under 16 can't get married, even with parental permission, without a court order.

if the complaint is valid, the man is a rapist. i don't give a shit who he worships.

that said, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn violent.


I agree with this. From some of the coverage I've seen and what I've read, it sounds almost cult-like anyway.

As of this morning they were saying they still haven't found the girl.

[Julie Worth]

the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

in texas, children under 16 can't get married, even with parental permission, without a court order.

if the complaint is valid, the man is a rapist. i don't give a shit who he worships.

that said, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn violent.

A supposed report of an underage marriage prompts the arrests of more that 200 people? And the underage person who made the report cannot be located? This is outrageous.

[William Haskins]

the 200 are women and children who have been removed, not arrested.

do a little reading on warren jeffs before you act like this is some baseless witch hunt.

[blacbird]

Echo what Haskins just cross-posted with me. Bear in mind, the leader of this group, the man who built the compound, the "prophet", is currently serving a long stretch in prison as a result of multiple accessory-to-rape convictions, the consequence of forcing the "marriages" of underage girls to adult men, often relatives. This isn't exactly a simple matter of "underage marriage". The Texas complaint cannot be looked upon as an isolated incident. Or ignored.

If you need a real eye-opener to where this kind of thing can go, google "Ervil LeBaron".

caw

[Robert Toy]

A supposed report of an underage marriage prompts the arrests of more that 200 people? And the underage person who made the report cannot be located? This is outrageous.
From what I have seen on CNN, they are not under arrest but are being provided shelter and food from the local First Baptist Church. Each of them are being individually interviewed by a welfare worker.

[reigningcatsndogs]

Hi there :)

I'm new to the P&CE page, but I wanted to post about this polygamist thing going on in Texas.

I, for one, am completely flabbergasted that in all the news coverage I've seen nobody has said much about how completely the rights of these people in this community are being trampled. They obviously choose to live a lifestyle that is not shared by their Texan neighbors. Apparently there was one phone call reporting physical violence. I'm not in favor of physical violence, of course, but I think it is outrageous that their entire community has been stormed and women and children taken into custody based on one unsubstantiated phone call.

Why doesn't anyone react this way to the unbearable violence in our inner-cities? Why are these people being persecuted?

WHAT IS GOING ON THERE??? WHY ISN'T ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING!! They have every right to live a life without television and crayons if they choose! I am floored. Thoughts?

If they were living a life without television and crayons, I rather doubt the FBI and huge number of police would be dispatched to deal with it. The activities of the FLDS under Warren Steed Jeffs is very well documented in the media. The treatment of these women is also well documented. Granted, Jeffs is finally in jail, but his teachings are still out there, and this 'community' has direct links to Jeffs-- they claim his as their prophet.

In essence, these sick men are nothing more than rampant pedophiles, concerned with nothing more than the perpetual creation of more victims, all of them kept under lock and key, controlled by religious rhetoric and the total lack of any education or awareness that what is happening to them is not only wrong but illegal.

People do have the right to practice whatever religion they desire. People do NOT have the right to completely and totally manipulate and abuse others under the guise of religion, and NO religious group should be above the laws that govern the land in which they choose to set up camp.

There is another 'community' that was the creation of Jeffs. It is here in Canada, called Bountiful. Some people manage to 'escape' from it and their stories are horrendous.

[Julie Worth]

the 200 are women and children who have been removed, not arrested.


Ooooh, that's comforting! But how did they remove them without arresting them?

[William Haskins]

the same way that you remove abused women or children from a tenement without arresting them.

[reigningcatsndogs]

See, and I gotta say, I haven't seen any evidence of institutionalized sexual abuse, nor have I seen anyone even suggest that such evidence exists.

What I have seen is people from different places and different situations entirely from the one being discussed being asked their opinion about what they think might be going on. This should not be happening without a case built on evidence. If the evidence is there, it should not be that hard to gather. To go in and remove people from their homes and families without that evidence is not cool with me.

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.

The marriages are forced. The women are kept under lock and key -- they know this because some women do manage to escape from other Warren Jeffs 'communities'. The marriages are to their uncles, their cousins, and yes, even their fathers.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/11/20/jeffs.sentence/index.html

"Previous visits by CNN revealed the ranch was guarded by armed men equipped with night-vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools to prevent intruder."

According to the members who escaped from Bountiful, this is as much to keep the girls in as it is to keep intruders out.

[blacbird]

Ooooh, that's comforting! But how did they remove them without arresting them?

"Arrest" is a formal legal term, Julie. It means to take into custody, pending legal charges. Any other lexicography help you need today?

caw

[Julie Worth]

the same way that you remove abused women or children from a tenement without arresting them.

They were looking for one supposodly abused person. They didn't find her.

[Julie Worth]

"Arrest" is a formal legal term, Julie. It means to take into custody, pending legal charges. Any other lexicography help you need today?

caw

To take into custody by legal authority is the definition of arrest, which was done in this case. Legal charges are not necessary (and especially not in Texas, nor did they have anything but the most tenuous legal justification. Do this same thing in Iran, and we'd be complaining wildly about it.).

[Sarpedon]

Yet.

And the state can and does take custody of underage people when there is sufficient evidence of sexual abuse. A minor married to an adult is sufficient evidence. If an adult has knowledge of a crime and does not report it, they are an accessory to the crime, and subject to arrest. That those women haven't been arrested is probably due to the recognition that they have also been abused. Technically, they could be arrested and charged.

Polygamy is a crime. Forcing someone into marriage is a crime. Sexual abuse of a minor is a crime. Law enforcement officers are empowered to make arrests when they suspect crimes have been committed, to allow them time to gather evidence, and to protect victims. I fail to see what is wrong here. The only thing that is wrong is housing the 200 women together, as they could still intimidate each other.

[rugcat]

I'm very familiar with the FLDS church having lived a goodly portion of my life in Utah. I have acquaintances who were raised in polygamous households. (Not FLDS)

But groups like the FLDS church present a real problem, because they straddle the border between a religious sect and a cult. Religious in that they are an offshoot of the LDS Church and hold to many of the same principles, much like extreme fundamentalist offshoots of mainstream Christian churches hold many of the same tenets of those churches.

Cultlike in that all power resides in a charismatic leader, their adherents are either separated from the outside world or discouraged from interacting, and one of the basic tenets of the church, coincidentally, provides the senior members with an ongoing supply of teenage girls to be wives.

In Utah, polygamy, although illegal, is tolerated by government and law enforcement as long as it's kept low profile. No one wants to open that religion/state can of worms. They tend to crack down only when there are complaints from underage victims about arranged marriages.

But there are states where sixteen is the age of consent, with permission of the parents, who are more than happy to give consent when directed to do so by the leader. Warren Jeffs got himself in trouble only because he arranged and facilitated a marriage for a follower with a fourteen year old girl.

But what if the girl is 16? or even 18? Having been isolated from mainstream society and brainwashed from birth as to the evils of the outside world, as well as the proper place of women in their closed society, what kind of "choice" is really involved here?

And the practice of multiple wives being parceled out to senior members leaves a surplus of teenage boys, many of whom are kicked out of the community -- often ostensibly for sinful behavior such as wearing short sleeved shirts, and abandoned to make it on their own without any knowledge, education, or training that would enable them to make it in the outside world. Some of them them turn to prostitution to survive.

They have been termed "The Lost Boys," and have recently sued the FLDS church, although iIdon't think anything ever came of it.

The FLDS church is a truly awful cult. But the right of such groups to practice their own brand of religion and the "right" of cults to isolate and control their followers, most of whom are born into the system, is a tricky proposition without any clear guidelines.

I don't think there will be any violence, however, -- although internecine violence is not unknown to the FLDS church, it doesn't have that doomsday mentality that often leads to tragedy.

[Julie Worth]

Yet.

And the state can and does take custody of underage people when there is sufficient evidence of sexual abuse. A minor married to an adult is sufficient evidence.

One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.


Polygamy is a crime. Forcing someone into marriage is a crime.

The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.


The only thing that is wrong is housing the 200 women together, as they could still intimidate each other.

As in sexually segregated dorms?

[Shadow_Ferret]

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.
Actually, they do throw hippy connipy fits when 14- and 15-year-olds have sex with adults. Happens in the news all the time. It's call statutory rape.

[Sarpedon]

One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.

As pointed out, the authorities had their eyes on this place for a long time. Previous complaints of sexual crimes associated with this group = less benefit of the doubt. Common sense.

It's a religious crime.

So? Can people commit crimes just because their religion says so? Suppose I were to convert to the worship of Huitzilopochtli, would that permit me to perform human sacrifice? You can make up a religion to justify any crime. Polygamy is a violation of the principle that everyone is equal. If it were consensual, that would be one thing, but this isn't. And locking someone away and brainwashing them doesn't equal consent.

The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.


Which country are you talking about? Martinique is a department of France, so I doubt you are talking about that. In France forced marriage is frowned upon. If you are talking about the USA it isn't common. I've met plenty of people who are married, none who were forced to do it. Marriage is a contract. Forcing someone into a contract is illegal.

As in sexually segregated dorms. What are you talking about? that doesn't even come close to making sense. I'm saying that some of the women are probably part of the problem, and might try to intimdate the others, as is common among cults.

[Jcomp]

The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.


Being 50 and having sex with 15-year-olds though...

[blacbird]

The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.

You probably didn't have any problem with Jim Jones, either, did you?

caw

[Robert Toy]

Buy a 1,900 acre piece of land in any rural area of the US, build a compound; temple, etc. House 200 plus people and you’re begging for some law enforcement attention.

[reigningcatsndogs]

One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.




The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.




As in sexually segregated dorms?

I have just been gooling like crazy -- nowhere that I can find has reported the 200 were arrested. They were removed, some were taken into state custody in order for them to be provided protection. These people recognized as victims, no different than the authorities would want to remove hostages from a volatile situation. They aren't being arrested.

And the sexual component really no different in many respects to the cases where a school teacher is involved with an underage student -- there's the issue of age but also the issue of authority and coercion. The girls involved are NOT willing participants, though. They are told they have to, they are taught they have to, many have no idea that it's wrong because they have been exposed to it all their lives, and the ones who do know its wrong have no means of escape.

[InfinityGoddess]

See, and I gotta say, I haven't seen any evidence of institutionalized sexual abuse, nor have I seen anyone even suggest that such evidence exists.

Forcing underaged girls to marry men who are in the 40-50 age range, who then in turn have sex with them counts as institutional sexual abuse.

What I have seen is people from different places and different situations entirely from the one being discussed being asked their opinion about what they think might be going on. This should not be happening without a case built on evidence. If the evidence is there, it should not be that hard to gather. To go in and remove people from their homes and families without that evidence is not cool with me.

I'd find it really easy to gather when you consider that the cult leader married off a 14-year-old girl to a cousin who then raped her, and went to jail for it. Top that with the fact that he encourages this type of behavior from his male followers, and there you have it.

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.

People freak out at the idea of an underaged girl coerced into sexual relations with a man who is years older than what is considered appropriate (and legal), much more than they freak out at a girl who had consensual relations with a male close in age.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I would think that part of removing the people would be to cut down on the places that this poor girl could be hidden.

Remember, they don't have contact with the outside world. So the less people in the area, the harder it's going to be to hide her - and eventually someone's going to see or say something.

[Julie Worth]

Why don't we all get together for a witch hunt?

[brittanimae]

I really appreciate the responses to this, as they show me where some of the animosity toward these people comes from.

However, I am still extremely uncomfortable with the idea that one unsubstantiated phone call can cause an entire community to be raided and taken into custody. The system is not supposed to work that way. If there is a complaint from one girl about one abuser, that should be handled differently than if there are multiple complaints about specific, institutional-type abuse, and that complaint is addressed by law enforcement.

I lived in Utah for a time and became somewhat familiar with the news surrounding Mr. Jeffs. I think he received what appeared to be a fair trial and is serving his time for it.

I don't think he can mind-control large numbers of people from his prison cell. I'm under the impression that the majority of members of this community are there by choice, although children are of course born into these circumstances. While they are not circumstances I would choose for my children, it appears that they are being reasonably well-cared for and educated (even if that education has a heavy religious component). I don't think they are substantially worse-off than large numbers of our urban poor.

I continue to think that if a raid is warranted, there should be some incredibly strong evidence backing that up. I haven't seen that presented.

Ooh, and forgot about this:

Polygamy is a crime. Forcing someone into marriage is a crime. Sexual abuse of a minor is a crime. Law enforcement officers are empowered to make arrests when they suspect crimes have been committed, to allow them time to gather evidence, and to protect victims. I fail to see what is wrong here. The only thing that is wrong is housing the 200 women together, as they could still intimidate each other.

I wonder why polygamy is a crime when having multiple romantic relationships is not? When cheating on a spouse is not (although it can be pricey)?

[Sarpedon]

an interesting philosphical question.

I would think that its because polygamist societies have all kinds of baggage associated with them; Rich, powerful men who exploit powerless women, and poor men who can't marry or form relationships because all the women are taken up by the powerful men. Its a social system where the haves have even more than in a simple rich/poor society. Its intrinsically unjust, and terribly unstable. Responsible government looks for ways to reconcile class conflict, rather than finding new ways to excaberate it.

[melaniehoo]

CNN just said there are around 400 children in protective custody and 130+ women left the compound voluntarily. Not arrested.

[Mr. Fix]

Why don't we all get together for a witch hunt?

I'm game!

If we're going to hunt down pedophiles that brainwash their children (young girls) and abandon the unworthy (teenage boys) so that the old men can have fifty wives (Bountiful, Canada) and sex with their own family (Jeffs), then yeah, let the hunt begin!:rant:

[reigningcatsndogs]

I really appreciate the responses to this, as they show me where some of the animosity toward these people comes from.

However, I am still extremely uncomfortable with the idea that one unsubstantiated phone call can cause an entire community to be raided and taken into custody. The system is not supposed to work that way. If there is a complaint from one girl about one abuser, that should be handled differently than if there are multiple complaints about specific, institutional-type abuse, and that complaint is addressed by law enforcement.

I lived in Utah for a time and became somewhat familiar with the news surrounding Mr. Jeffs. I think he received what appeared to be a fair trial and is serving his time for it.

I don't think he can mind-control large numbers of people from his prison cell. I'm under the impression that the majority of members of this community are there by choice, although children are of course born into these circumstances. While they are not circumstances I would choose for my children, it appears that they are being reasonably well-cared for and educated (even if that education has a heavy religious component). I don't think they are substantially worse-off than large numbers of our urban poor.

I continue to think that if a raid is warranted, there should be some incredibly strong evidence backing that up. I haven't seen that presented.

Ooh, and forgot about this:


I wonder why polygamy is a crime when having multiple romantic relationships is not? When cheating on a spouse is not (although it can be pricey)?

I'm curious as to how you would know there isn't substantial evidence backing up the need for the raid. The police or FBI probably did not run their warrants past the press for approval. I have no doubt that if the proper documentation and grounds weren't presented, the warrants wouldn't have been issued. I would think the media would jump on that like crows on roadkill.

To be fair, I can't state categorically that I have proof of such documentation either. I would suggest that if the documentation wasn't in order, the FLDS would bring that to the media's attention immediately. Under the circumstances, I would suspect that legal authorities have been building a case for some time and went in when they had confirmed information that someone was in danger, as is their job.

If only one person calls to report suspicious activity that could endanger one or many people in a downtown office building, is it not expected that something should be done, that the building be emptied, the people helped, the problem sought out.

There is a young woman in danger. She shouldn't require other people to substantiate her claim of abuse or her plea for help. Anyone asking the police for help is taken at their word, and then the police have the obligation to find out what is going on.

If what they did was done illegally, if rights were stomped on, I have absolutely no doubt that a birage of lawyers will descend on the community and offer their assistance, and retribution will be sought. In the meantime, the police have an obligation to help that one child. If she were your daughter, would you not demand the same?

[blacbird]

I continue to think that if a raid is warranted, there should be some incredibly strong evidence backing that up. I haven't seen that presented.

Police agencies very very very seldom release to the public much information concerning the evidence for any particular enforcement action, for very very very good reasons: They don't want to jeopardize potential prosecutions, among other things.

caw

[Julie Worth]

In the meantime, the police have an obligation to help that one child. If she were your daughter, would you not demand the same?

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.

[waylander]

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.

or the husband of one or two

[reigningcatsndogs]

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.

If my child were in that situation, I would be leaping for joy that someone had gotten her out of there, safe and sound. I would be relieved that she was safe in Child Protective Services, as all these children are. I would be thrilled that she was being appointed a lawyer and that the terrible things that were happening to her would be dealt with and she would be getting the help she needs to deal with what she has been through.

For me, it would be no different than learning that the police had to go in to protect my sister who was getting the bejeebers smacked outta her by her husband, and as a result of the police attending, the children were taken out of the house and taken to where they would be safe until their mother or another responsible can come and get them.

Custody in this case implies care and guardianship. These children in Texas have not been arrested, but they are still children who, for the time being, have no home to go to. The police can't go in there, get them out of a potentially danger situation, drop them at the gate and tell them to go on their way and have a nice life. If there is a bomb threat at a school, the kids aren't just kicked out the door to scatter -- they have to be accounted for, and someone has to be with them until a proper guardian can be located to ensure they will be okay. Unfortunately it takes time to sort out. The police and social services have a responsibility to ensure the children are safe and kept that way, and so yes, until a parent (who is not being hunted down by the police for criminal investigation) or a guardian can be located, they will be taken care of by the state.

[Julie Worth]

I would be relieved that she was safe in Child Protective Services...

Haha. A quote from the web: "CPS has not only torn my family apart, they have lied in court, violated my rights . . . as if we do not live in a democracy. AND, our court systems let them get away with it . . . we are living in a state that will tear apart stable homes, but leave children that are in real danger (and I've seen them) unattended, and left to fend for themselves."

[blacbird]

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.

There apparently remains a question as to whether or not they have found the girl in question. She is now 16, by the way; she had a baby at age 15, and was "married" God knows when before that. You really are having a hard time with the straightforward factual information in this story, Julie.

caw

[William Haskins]

one of the key ingredients of manufactured outrage is blurry vision.

[Cranky]

There apparently remains a question as to whether or not they have found the girl in question. She is now 16, by the way; she had a baby at age 15, and was "married" God knows when before that. You really are having a hard time with the straightforward factual information in this story, Julie.

caw

It seems pretty straightforward to me as well.

[sandyn]

http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/polygamy/index.shtml

[Soccer Mom]

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.

I live near where a large number of these women and children are being housed. They aren't under arrest. They are free to come and go. In fact, they are staying in a church, not a secured facility. They came voluntarily.

And the age of consent in Texas is not 16. It is 17.

[Julie Worth]

There apparently remains a question as to whether or not they have found the girl in question. She is now 16, by the way; she had a baby at age 15, and was "married" God knows when before that. You really are having a hard time with the straightforward factual information in this story, Julie.

caw

She is now 16. That's what I said.

[William Haskins]

no, what you said was:

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16).

the parenthetical clearly illustrating you making an attempt to suggest that the law was not being broken.

[blacbird]

Once again, for emphasis, ditto what Haskins just said.

caw

[Julie Worth]

no, what you said was:



the parenthetical clearly illustrating you making an attempt to suggest that the law was not being broken.

And that is possibly the case. The law was changed on September 1, 2005, raising the age from 14 to 16. Therefore, it's possibly she was 14 in 2005 and got married legally. We don't know from the few facts given, but in any case, the change in the law and the massive overreaction is entirely due to the religious hostility to the fundamentalist Mormon group, and not because of any real interest in protecting children.

[blacbird]

the massive overreaction is entirely due to the religious hostility to the fundamentalist Mormon group, and not because of any real interest in protecting children.

Hogwash. Thrice distilled.

caw

[Cranky]

And that is possibly the case. The law was changed on September 1, 2005, raising the age from 14 to 16. Therefore, it's possibly she was 14 in 2005 and got married legally. We don't know from the few facts given, but in any case, the change in the law and the massive overreaction is entirely due to the religious hostility to the fundamentalist Mormon group, and not because of any real interest in protecting children.

You've got to be kidding me. There isn't much more that riles people pretty much universally than the potential abuse of children.

[Mr. Fix]

Haha. A quote from the web: "CPS has not only torn my family apart, they have lied in court, violated my rights . . . as if we do not live in a democracy. AND, our court systems let them get away with it . . . we are living in a state that will tear apart stable homes, but leave children that are in real danger (and I've seen them) unattended, and left to fend for themselves."

Well, if the WEB says so, it must be true.:e2smack:

[Julie Worth]

Well, if the WEB says so, it must be true.:e2smack:

I'm just trying to point out that putting children in the custody of a government agency is not necessarily a good thing, especially when this is done en masse for political/religious reasons.

Hogwash. Thrice distilled. caw

Brilliant.

[blacbird]

I'm just trying to point out that putting children in the custody of a government agency is not necessarily a good thing, especially when this is done en masse for political/religious reasons.

Your idea that this raid took place "en masse for political/religious reasons" is the purest kind of unsupported assertion. You don't have a clue what specific information authorities have concerning this group or their compound, so you blithely assume they have none and are just acting as a jackbooted Gestapo or something, to satisfy your own set of biases against governmental agencies in general.

What is known about this group strikes me (and most others here, I think I can say without exaggeration) is plenty enough to warrant the action taken. The leader, the self-proclaimed "prophet", who had the place built and the people moved there, is a convicted pedophile or pedophile-enabler, with the ability to convince large numbers of people to follow him more or less blindly, and to isolate themselves from contact with the outside world. In other words, another potential Jim Jones or David Koresh. And the allegation of forced marriage of underaged girls to older men at the Texas compound only mirrors the well-established practice of the same thing in the Utah stronghold.

It was a big raid because there were a hell of a lot of people there, including 400-some children, any of whom may well have been exposed to the same forms of manipulation and sexual abuse as the ones in Utah. Now, you can go on justifying that practice, if you like, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's what you're doing.

The prejudice against this Mormon cult-group you allege to be behind all this isn't prejudice against Mormonism. It isn't even prejudice against "plural marriage", per se. It's prejudice against exploitation and abuse of minors, and I, for one, am right glad such prejudice exists. Are you?

caw

[Tiger]

I'm just trying to point out that putting children in the custody of a government agency is not necessarily a good thing, especially when this is done en masse for political/religious reasons.



Brilliant.

I thought it was determined that they were:

1. Not "in custody," and that
2. Their compound was raided--not for political/religious reasons--but for child safety issues

[Julie Worth]

I thought it was determined that they were:

1. Not "in custody," and that
2. Their compound was raided--not for political/religious reasons--but for child safety issues

The prejudice against this Mormon cult-group you allege to be behind all this isn't prejudice against Mormonism. It isn't even prejudice against "plural marriage", per se. It's prejudice against exploitation and abuse of minors, and I, for one, am right glad such prejudice exists. Are you? caw


All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

[Cranky]

Gee, maybe that's because the priests that were pedophiles weren't holed up in their own little fiefdom, complete with weapons and kids. Which they were marrying off to their followers and/or themselves.

There was, and has been, plenty of outrage over the abuses of those priests, and the heirarchy that protected them.

[rtilryarms]

the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.



I'm not taking sides, but for the record, she was 14 when she conceived, 16 when she complained.
Unfortunately that constitutes a high crime in our country. One of the highest and the authorities have every right to enter with a search warrant.

People here know that I believe that the Sex Offender laws are 98% way too far-reaching, but this is EXACTLY what the original intent of the law was for.
This girl is being raped and abused, she does not like it, and she is pleading for help.

OK I AM taking sides!!!!

[NikeeGoddess]

http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/uni...my/index.shtml
they missed a couple shot gun marriage and green card marriage lol! and soon they'll have to list same sex marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by reigningcatsndogs
In the meantime, the police have an obligation to help that one child. If she were your daughter, would you not demand the same?
They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.the mothers were allowed to go with the children. the fathers are not allowed to visit. i can see how the fathers would be hopping mad but the mothers... i'm sure many of them don't want to see their 14 year old begging to stay a virgin and not having to mate with a funky old fart with gray hair and wrinkles. at least that's what i thought of 50 year old men when i was 14. and i'm sure many of those soon to be 30 year old grandmothers can remember that since it probably happened to them too.

i saw a segment on 60 minutes a couple of years ago about how a polygamist group weeded out the boys who were less than optimal and forced them out of the compounds with little or no information of how to survive in the world. there were several families who took these boys in and helped them adapt. if the men have several wives then many of the males will be left out so they get rid of them.

personally, i wouldn't mind having 3 husbands w/complimentary skills and talents: one bread winner, one house cleaner, one bed winner -- you know what i'm talking about. most of you guys can't do it all. lol!

[William Haskins]

i'll just take this opportunity to point out that the alleged husband here is convicted sex offender. you know, to fan the 'political' flames...

[rugcat]

We don't know from the few facts given, but in any case, the change in the law and the massive overreaction is entirely due to the religious hostility to the fundamentalist Mormon group, and not because of any real interest in protecting children.The FLDS church has been on law enforcement radar in Utah for years. They have an immense amount of information on them, and no, it's not about religious bigotry.

It's about a cult that causes serious harm to their own children, including sexual abuse. But it's difficult to get evidence that will stand up in court, because it's a closed society that's almost impossible to infiltrate, and the victims are so completely brainwashed that it's hard to get then to testify, even to their own abuse.

[Tiger]

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse.

So can child abuse.

It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis.

I don't really see how you could read everything that's been posted and still make statements of this kind.

Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

You know, they call the institution the "Catholic Church," but I don't think they're literally talking about a church--as in a building--thus, assailable by SWATs...

[rtilryarms]

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

The Catholic Church also has legal teams assigned to cooperate with authorities. In my church the Legal Counsel for misconduct prosecution is our pastor Monsignor Schwangar who is also a Vicar for the Archdiocese of Miami.
I think the principal difference is that the current complaints against the Catholic Church are decades old (and popular for the generous settlements which are stopping thank goodness) and the one in TX is current.

I know 4 Priests personally who have been prosecuted and 2 are serving jail. 1 other I believe did it and is pending. The 4th is one whom I trust deeply and I think it’s a crock that they are defaming a good man. But the church is going full-tilt after all allegations. Perhaps too late, but definitely not too little.

I hate the current sex laws but many of these cases must be investigated.

This case in TX is indefensible.

[Julie Worth]

It's current? These allegations have been going on for many years. Here's (http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html) a ton of them (though not just the Texas group (http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy238.html)). I just wonder why now, with such scant new evidence?

[NikeeGoddess]

i'll just take this opportunity to point out that the alleged husband here is convicted sex offender. you know, to fan the 'political' flames...i don't believe that guy in prison is her husband. they haven't identified her or her husband. she could be one of the 401 children who is now afraid to identify herself or she could still be on the compound, possibly being sequestered by her husband or someone else.

Originally Posted by Julie Worth
Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.
You know, they call the institution the "Catholic Church," but I don't think they're literally talking about a church--as in a building--thus, assailable by SWATs...
true that for many, many years the catholic pedophile priests were not even questioned. they were seen as men of god and these acts were unthinkable. but now, they're dealt with on a case by case basis and even as an adult you can accuse a priest who molested you from many years ago. there is no statue of limitations on this kind of crime.
now, if the vatican was holding 400 children and there was this one phone call - it would call for a swat team.

[sandyn]

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/FLDSvsLDS.htm

Enlightening.

[William Haskins]

i don't believe that guy in prison is her husband. they haven't identified her or her husband.

yes they have. and i never suggested the husband was warren jeffs. he's this prince:

Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said the person arrested was not Dale Barlow, the man listed in warrants related to the marriage of an underage girl.

Barlow's probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona. Phone messages seeking comment from Loader and Barlow were not immediately returned Monday.

Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23993440/

[dgiharris]

Hi Julie and Brittanimae,

I think the root cause of your concern is the government's response to pretty flimsy evidence. In fact, you could probably make a case that the government fabricated the evidence.

So (IMO), your positions spring from the standpoint that the government should not be allowed to abuse their power.

I agree, however, not everything is black and white. There are shades of gray and these cults are dripping in gray.

Our country and entire legal system is based on the preface of sidding with the innocent. It is a perpetual game of paper rock scissor.

In this case, the innocent is not the religious group, but an innocent child within that group. THerefore, based on our 'protect the innocent' foundation, we are more than willing to use a legal loop hole to trample a few rights to ensure all is well.

It is absolutely vital that the government have the power to do these sorts of things. We should never be at the point where we allow a 'technicality' to trump common sense and basic justice.

It is very very likely the government had been building a case for years. If these people followed the letter of the law, then they should come out of this alright. However, the government would have never done this if they didn't know without a doubt that the law had been broken. Kinda like a Ricco case.

Now, it is true we do have other problems in this country. But when faced with a problem, the defense of "Well other people smoke crack and get away with it so why are you arresting me for pot?" isn't really a defense.

I do agree that we need to keep a reign on government and the police (that is what the media is suppose to help with) but at the same time, we should never EVER put a technicalty ahead of common sense.

Mel...

[brittanimae]

Hi, I'm baaa--aaack. :)

My thought remains that the level of action should be commensurate with the crime, and the crimes which allegedly occurred still do not seem to command the level of attention and action that have been heaped upon this community. I maintain that such investigations should be carried out thoughtfully, planned in advance, and designed to unsettle the people who voluntarily practice this religion as little as possible. Child Protective Services does much good, but they also do much harm when great care is not taken to consider the best interests of the children being served.

And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style. Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality? Well, actually, yes. About 30 years ago, they would have.

[veinglory]

I think the crime of raping a 14 year old (who is recorded as giving birth at 15) as part of a systematic culture of forceably marrying female children to their blood relatives justifies a pretty severe level of action. That girl called for help, and it came. I support legal multiple marraige, but not against a person's will and not to a minor or immediate relative. I think conflating the two issues is as bad as conflating homosexuality and pedophilia.

[RumpleTumbler]

And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style.

Which part of the lifestyle are you talking about?

Is it the segregating of a community from the general population?

Fifty year old men having sex with 15 year old girls? That's pretty gross in either direction btw.

[Tiger]

And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style. Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality? Well, actually, yes. About 30 years ago, they would have.

Conclusions are not "ill-supported" just because you say they are. The issue is not about "lifesyle" just because you say it is.

[rtilryarms]

It's current? These allegations have been going on for many years. Here's (http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html) a ton of them (though not just the Texas group (http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy238.html)). I just wonder why now, with such scant new evidence?

I'm thinking that a baby is a pretty good exhibit A. Then there is exhibit D,N and A

[brittanimae]

I'm just sayin--a raid is probably not the best method here. Seriously. Raids are for when there are stockpiles of nuclear weapons. We have other ways of dealing with this stuff.

[blacbird]

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

I can't think of any instance in which Catholic clergy had hundreds of children and women holed up in a compound without access to outside society. The pedophile priests operated individually, in the darkness of the confessional, among other places. They weren't interested in being cult leaders. They just wanted perverted sex. So, your point is . . . ahhhh . . . that it's okay to do these things in large groups, but not individually in secret?

caw

[blacbird]

I'm just sayin--a raid is probably not the best method here. Seriously. Raids are for when there are stockpiles of nuclear weapons. We have other ways of dealing with this stuff.

And those are . . . ?

caw

[rtilryarms]

I'm just sayin--a raid is probably not the best method here. Seriously. Raids are for when there are stockpiles of nuclear weapons. We have other ways of dealing with this stuff.

I am open minded. What other method do you propose to save a girl from constantly being raped and exploited?

I think the government showed great restraint by asking for cooperation. The raid was due to the lack of cooperation plus blatant disregard and disrespect for the law.

These rapes cannot be tolerated. Surely you don't agree that we should negotiate with rapists?

Surely?

[blacbird]

Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality?

No, if we were talking about homosexuality among consenting adults. Yes, emphatically, if we were talking about pedophilia. WHICH WE ARE. What part of the word ped-o-phil-i-a do you not understand?

caw

[PattiTheWicked]

I'm baffled by the cries of "stop persecuting the Mormons", and wonder if we'd hear them if this group was not in fact a religious sect. Lets' say there was a compound full of people who did not share a common religion -- a group of, let's say, toaster oven inspectors, or vacuum cleaner salesmen -- who were doing the things this group is accused of -- condoning the sexual abuse of young girls. Would it be okay to arrest them then?

Frankly, I don't care what religion these people are. This has nothing to do with the rest of the world "not tolerating a lifestyle". If a bunch of consenting adults freely choose to cohabit with each other, that's their business -- but THIS is a case of child abuse and sexual assaults. That's not a lifestyle, it's a crime. And if there is enough evidence to show that these things have taken place, someone -- possibly multiple someones -- should be prosecuted.

[brittanimae]

You send investigators in.

They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.

They present evidence to support their suspicions (this can be subjective--woman would not make eye contact, seemed reluctant to touch and care for child, etc.).

Based on this evidence they request a warrant to detain suspected victims and bring them in for questioning.

If evidence and testimony are acquired, they arrest the individuals who are accused and hold a trial.

I think this is what are talking about when we say "due process."

[blacbird]

personally, i wouldn't mind having 3 husbands w/complimentary skills and talents: one bread winner, one house cleaner, one bed winner

At the age of 14?

If they were 50?

Or your cousins?

Under threat that you'd go to Hell and burn forever if you didn't?

Get real.

caw

[TerzaRima]

Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality?

Um, right. Because raping and impregnating teenagers is morally synonymous with homosexuality. No difference at all. Are we still on AW?

[Autodidact]

See, and I gotta say, I haven't seen any evidence of institutionalized sexual abuse, nor have I seen anyone even suggest that such evidence exists.

What I have seen is people from different places and different situations entirely from the one being discussed being asked their opinion about what they think might be going on. This should not be happening without a case built on evidence. If the evidence is there, it should not be that hard to gather. To go in and remove people from their homes and families without that evidence is not cool with me.

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.

I have. Have you read Escape? (Sorry, can't remember author's name.) It's by a woman who grew up and married within this group. She tells, from the inside, about child abuse, wife-beating, forced marriage, under-age marriage, and general misery, as well as lot of criminal activity. She wonders at length why the Arizona Department of Social Services did not intervene to protect children there. The police department in the town was entirely staffed by members of the FLDS, so there was no where a battered woman or child could go for help. In fact, if a girl ran away rather than face marriage to a man three times her age, the police would bring her back. She left because she thought Warren Jeffs (now in jail for forcing a girl to marry against her will) was bringing the group to an apocalyptic end, and it looks like she was right.

[chartreuse]

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

Yes, and how unfortunate for the many victims of the Catholic priests that the SWAT teams didn't step in. Might have stopped a few lives from being wrecked...

You're right that the "mob mentality" of the public is easily aroused - but that is just as true when talking about the segment of the public that sees any government questioning of religious groups as being unacceptable and a sign of persecution.

Fact is that there is a whole lot that goes on in the churches that shouldn't - some, like the abuse by Catholic priests, is blatantly illegal, some, like the emotional abuse and manipulation detailed in the Jesus Camp documentary, isn't technically illegal but would be recognized as child abuse by almost anyone not under the spell of the church.

Most religions qualify as cults, especially if you look at the practices of the extremist followers of that religion. I feel sorry for any child born into a family of fanatics. However, I also recognize that unless actual laws are broken, there is unfortunately nothing that can be done.

But in this case, there is an accusation of laws being broken, the police have every right to investigate, and given the known of beliefs of this group, there is every reason to believe that many more girls suffered the same fate as the one who called. It's important to keep in mind that was not the police coming in and taking the women and children - it was CSD, and THEY were acting because they had good reason to believe that the girl who made the call was far from the only victim.

[Autodidact]

A supposed report of an underage marriage prompts the arrests of more that 200 people? And the underage person who made the report cannot be located? This is outrageous.

You need to know more about this group. What you have is forced polygamous marriage of teenage girls to men two and three times their age. The men have total control over their entire harem of anywhere from 2-50 wives and their children. It's a very scary, dangerous group.

Also they preach "blood atonement." Do you know what that is? It's murder.

[Autodidact]

They were looking for one supposodly abused person. They didn't find her.
No, she's just the source that tipped them off to rampant abuse; that's what they're investigating. That's their job.

[brittanimae]

But doesn't anyone think this is being conducted in an illegal and immoral way??

Also, Not Without My Daughter gives a similar view of Islam, and Leaving the Saints brings up concerns with the run-of-the-mill Mormons. A memoir is not evidence for a raid.

[Autodidact]

One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.




The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.




As in sexually segregated dorms?

Julie: this is what happens in that group. An elderly man goes to the prophet to request a specific young girl, age 14-18. He already has a few dozen wives and scores of children. The prophet reveals that the girl is meant to be his wife. Her parents bring her to him, ignoring her pleas, and within days she finds herself wife # 40 of a man in his seventies, assigned to take care of the 10-15 children of one of his other wives, and clean and work for the senior wives, and occasionally chosen by the husband for sex. She has no say in the matter. She bears as many children as she can as soon as she can. The children belong to and are subject to the will of the patriarch. If they disobey, they are beaten. Teenage sons are driven out of the compound. Teenage girls will be married off to another elderly powerful member of the church. There is no public school and no medical care. That's the basic set-up.

[Autodidact]

Forcing underaged girls to marry men who are in the 40-50 age range, who then in turn have sex with them counts as institutional sexual abuse. 40 or 50 if they're lucky. Elderly apostles and prophets collect wives like bowling trophies. I mean 70, 80 year old men.

[blacbird]

Also they preach "blood atonement." Do you know what that is? It's murder.

Correct. Those of you who think these people are nice quiet peace-loving Amish farmers being persecuted by the evil Government Overlords, check this out:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html

caw

[Autodidact]

I really appreciate the responses to this, as they show me where some of the animosity toward these people comes from.

However, I am still extremely uncomfortable with the idea that one unsubstantiated phone call can cause an entire community to be raided and taken into custody. The system is not supposed to work that way. If there is a complaint from one girl about one abuser, that should be handled differently than if there are multiple complaints about specific, institutional-type abuse, and that complaint is addressed by law enforcement.

I lived in Utah for a time and became somewhat familiar with the news surrounding Mr. Jeffs. I think he received what appeared to be a fair trial and is serving his time for it.

I don't think he can mind-control large numbers of people from his prison cell. I'm under the impression that the majority of members of this community are there by choice, although children are of course born into these circumstances. While they are not circumstances I would choose for my children, it appears that they are being reasonably well-cared for and educated (even if that education has a heavy religious component). I don't think they are substantially worse-off than large numbers of our urban poor.

I continue to think that if a raid is warranted, there should be some incredibly strong evidence backing that up. I haven't seen that presented.

Ooh, and forgot about this:


I wonder why polygamy is a crime when having multiple romantic relationships is not? When cheating on a spouse is not (although it can be pricey)?

brittan: law enforcement in these states have been interviewing escapees and collecting evidence to prosecute for a long time; they just decided to move based on this complaint.

[Autodidact]

Hi, I'm baaa--aaack. :)

My thought remains that the level of action should be commensurate with the crime, and the crimes which allegedly occurred still do not seem to command the level of attention and action that have been heaped upon this community. I maintain that such investigations should be carried out thoughtfully, planned in advance, and designed to unsettle the people who voluntarily practice this religion as little as possible. Child Protective Services does much good, but they also do much harm when great care is not taken to consider the best interests of the children being served.

And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style. Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality? Well, actually, yes. About 30 years ago, they would have.

At this point there's been a steady supply of escaped wives and "lost boys" who have been filling the authorities in on what goes on in this group. Based on all of that, and this phone call, the government is concerned that children are being sexually and physically abused in this compound. What do you suggest they do, ignore it?

[reigningcatsndogs]

But doesn't anyone think this is being conducted in an illegal and immoral way??

Also, Not Without My Daughter gives a similar view of Islam, and Leaving the Saints brings up concerns with the run-of-the-mill Mormons. A memoir is not evidence for a raid.

I'm not trying to be a smarta** here, but I can't imagine that you truly believe the police, when receiving the phone call for help, would phone to make an appointment to talk to the girl or to look for potential witnesses in the camp. They wouldn't send two cops there to wander in past the armed guards, knock on the door and ask to talk. If they did, they would get no answers at all. They would get nothing. They wouldn't even get their foot in the door. The women and children would be TOLD what to say, would be threatened about what would happen to them. How would they know that, in the next room, another man was holding a gun on the women gathered in there to keep them from being quiet. What if they had tried to go in to speak to everyone, were asked to leave and come back with a warrant, and came back two hours later to find everyone had taken a koolaid cocktail and was now dead on the floor?

The minute the police suspect this is the case, they have to react differently. They received a call for help because someone was in trouble. They believed the situation could be life-threatening to the girl. They have a responsibility to get anyone who might be a victim or who could be in harms way by no choice of their own out of the way and to safety. They have no way of predicting how the men in the camp will act. They also have a responsibility to react quickly for the girl's sake.

What if it was your neighbor who threatened his wife and children? She phones the police to say that she thinks he will kill her and the kids and she needs help. The police are going to go to the neighbors and ask them to leave the area because its not safe. If the neighbors don't go, the police will move them for their own protection, especially if there are children or a school next door. If they go to a house and find two ten-year-olds without a parent, what should the police do? Leave the kids sitting there? Are they going to knock on the door where the guy is waving a gun around and ask him if he wants to talk? They may try to phone him and negotiate. That's what they claim they did with the community in Texas. Sadly, this smaller scenario happens all the time all over the continent. It's handled the same way.

[Autodidact]

You send investigators in.

They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have. They've done that. The group will not let them talk to the complainant. That's the problem.

[Autodidact]

But doesn't anyone think this is being conducted in an illegal and immoral way??

Also, Not Without My Daughter gives a similar view of Islam, and Leaving the Saints brings up concerns with the run-of-the-mill Mormons. A memoir is not evidence for a raid.

Sorry, can't remember the author's name. She ended up working with the Utah Attorney General to begin compiling charges that eventually resulted in Jeff's arrest.

[blacbird]

But doesn't anyone think this is being conducted in an illegal and immoral way??

No. Why do you? How does this differ from a raid on a reported crack house? Or a business employing lots of illegal aliens? I confess, I am completely mystified at this reaction to what has happened in the Texas compound.

caw

[mlhernandez]

I've been debating all day whether or not to jump in here....

For the record I was born and raised in Eldorado, Texas. My entire extended family lives there. My very close friends own land surrounding the FLDS compound. Yes, it is a compound. The FLDS members lied when they purchased the land from my friend, Krystal's, family. At the time the land was used for an exotic game ranch. The FLDS purchased the land under the guise of building a ranching retreat. (This is pretty common in E-town. We're literally in the middle of nowhere. A lot of wealthy folks build/buy small ranching operations and turn them into hunting/winter retreats.)

Within weeks of purchasing the land, they began building massive dormitories. Soon they had built their own cement plant. A bulk cement plant, folks. This thing rivals the cement plant that's used at the oil and gas servicing district where my father works. Next it was a stone quarry, complete with dynamite explosions numerous times a day. When local pilots realized the extent of the building on the ranch, they made sure to take aerial photos for documentation. They are astounding.

They surrounded their land with massive gates and fences and security cameras. They manned the entrances to their ranch with armed guards. Yes, armed guards. Last fall while driving out to visit a friend who lives down the same road, I was followed by two trucks with armed men in the passenger seats. As a young woman, I can't tell you how terrifying that is, especially when you realize that there is absolutely NO cell phone service that far out in the boondocks.

Numerous attempts have been made to gain entry onto the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) ranch. TCEQ (Texas Commission for Environmental Equality) finally gained access to the ranch after threatening legal ramifications if they weren't allowed to carry out inspections on the bulk plant and other operations. TCEQ managed to take a few sheriff's deputies with them onto the land, the first time our local law enforcement was able to get a good look at what the hell was going on out there. It quickly became clear that the FLDS was moving a large number of followers onto their compound. For the record, yes, they were fined for their operations.

I'm sure a lot of people wonder why citizens of Eldorado or our local law enforcement haven't done anything before this. You have to understand that Eldorado is a town of less than 2000. We have one main intersection, one grocery store, and a school that has less than 600 students pre-k-12th grade. We have one sheriff and four deputies (when fully staffed.) The closest CPS is in San Angelo (55 miles north of E-town.) People in town educated themselves as much as possible on the subject of the FLDS. Our law enforcement tried to keep the best tabs on the compound they could.

Anyone who thinks the FLDS men would have allowed the sheriff and a few CPS workers to waltz onto that ranch and ask the children or women questions is crazy. It was never going to happen. I can't begin to explain my surprise at the bravery of that young girl to make that phone call. Honestly, I'm surprised she was able to get near a phone or a phone book. Now that she's missing, I'm terrified for her and her baby. God only knows where they took her. There were a few days between the time the call was made and the raid began. That was plenty of time to smuggle her off the ranch.

I'm happy to answer questions, etc. I hope this provides a little background on the FLDS and their sudden appearance in Eldorado.

[rugcat]

I've been debating all day whether or not to jump in here....Thanks for the illuminating first hand account.

[mlhernandez]

No problem!

[Joe270]

I recall the coverage on this compound in San Antonio. About every other week there was something in the news.

No one wanted them there, and none of the negotiations were honest or above-board.

I'm surprised they haven't raided the place earlier.

[rugcat]

Correct. Those of you who think these people are nice quiet peace-loving Amish farmers being persecuted by the evil Government Overlords, check this out:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html

cawJon Krakauer wrote a fascinating book about Mormon Fundamentalists, Under The Banner Of Heaven (http://www.readersroom.com/krakauerrvw.html) focusing on Ron and Dan Lafferty, infamous in Utah.

Note that the LDS Church completely rejects these fundamentalist sects, though they were not too happy with Krakauer's book, which placed the fundamentalist movement squarely in the the context of Mormon tradition.

[Joe270]

which placed the fundamentalist movement squarely in the the context of Mormon tradition

This apple did not fall far from the tree.

[mlhernandez]

I second rugcat. The Krakauer book is fascinating. Escape by Carolyn Jessop was equally as good. Her relative Flora Jessop is a big time thorn in the side of the FLDS. She managed to escape their clutches and does a lot of public education on them.

Here are links to early pics of the compound and updated pics.

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/6-13-05.htm

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/01-06-06.htm

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/02-19-08.htm

[rugcat]

This apple did not fall far from the tree.I'm not a big fan of the Church. But I know a lot of very fine folks who are Mormon.

[blacbird]

Before somebody here (I won't name names) accuses me of "prejudice" toward Mormons, let me clarify.

I have disagreement, theologically and philosophically, with LDS teachings, but that's entirely intellectual. I have spent a lot of time in Utah, lived and discussed LDS theology with dedicated Mormons, and have friends to this day among Mormons, including members of the Reorganized Church (which separated itself from the Utah Temple many years ago).

I am absolutely certain that almost all Mormons find the Warren Jeffs of the world disgusting and embarrassing and have no objection to his conviction or to what is now playing out at the compound in Texas. By any reasonable definition, Jeffs is the leader of a cult, and we have ample history to show how these kinds of operations too often play out in murder and horror.

I've urged twice now that people look up Ervil LeBaron to see the end product of this kind of operation. Nobody has yet commented, so I'll provide some context:

In the 1960s-1970s, much like Jeffs, LeBaron followed his father into the leadership of a family-based polygamist cult exiled from standard LDS Church teachings. He rather quickly drifted into a "blood-atonement" cult theology that demanded murder of anyone who disagreed with him. Something on the order of 20 people were murdered at his urging, including one of his brothers, one of his wives and daughters (at the hands of another). Another brother spent many years on the run, under known death threat.

LeBaron was eventually arrested and convicted of murder, sentenced to life in prison, which lasted only about a year before he died of a heart attack in 1981. But his followers murdered at least half-a-dozen other people after his death, and to this day other former followers live in seclusion, fearing retribution.

So, tell me again, why authorities shouldn't be concerned about Warren Jeffs and his flock.

caw

[mlhernandez]

I think a lot of people in Eldorado had the same fears, Blackbird. We didn't (and still don't to some extent) know what the hell was going on out there. We'd heard the horror stories from the young women who'd managed to escape and the Lost Boys who'd been shoved out of the sect when competition for wives became fierce. I remember discussing the issue of blood atonement and Jim Jones and all kinds of other cult craziness with my mother and her coffee drinking circle. They were all very worried that something sinister would happen.

Warren Jeffs also made tons of "end of the world" prophecies. I know that many people were worried that there might be a kool-aid fest out there. When the actual prophesied end of days happened (April 6, 2005, I believe), there was a lot of tension in town. But it was just another uneventful day.

Well. Except for Jim Runge, Eldorado's local comedian. He put up a sign on the town marquee that read: Tomorrow Has Been Canceled. When the sheriff got a lot of complaints, he asked Jim to take it down. He replaced it with: Just Kidding. Tomorrow Has Not Been Canceled After All. He also dressed up as the Grim Reaper on stilts and stood outside the compound gates. (Yeah, he's a bit of a buffoon.)

Jim was quoted that day as saying: “Nothing’s going to happen here tomorrow. Warren will tell his people they haven’t been faithful enough and he will send them back to work,” Runge stated. “But...not before he passes the collection plate.”

Bingo. I really believe that when you get right down to it, it's all about sex and money. Which makes the perversion of Mormon beliefs all that more reprehensible.

[Joe270]

I'm not a big fan of the Church. But I know a lot of very fine folks who are Mormon.

I agree. I know lots and lots of them. More than half of my current neighbors are mormon.

That said, I have fundamental problems with the mormon church, its history,, its practices, and this fundamentalist group. I wrote a lengthy post on this before, but it caused some pain for some folks in this forum who I respect and like very much. I won't go there again.

[NikeeGoddess]

You send investigators in.

They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.

They present evidence to support their suspicions (this can be subjective--woman would not make eye contact, seemed reluctant to touch and care for child, etc.).

Based on this evidence they request a warrant to detain suspected victims and bring them in for questioning.

If evidence and testimony are acquired, they arrest the individuals who are accused and hold a trial.

I think this is what are talking about when we say "due process."Sorry, can't remember the author's name. She ended up working with the Utah Attorney General to begin compiling charges that eventually resulted in Jeff's arrest.she was on CNN this evening.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-0574822-7528127?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=escape&x=0&y=0
said, after she left the compound (b/c her children were so fearful of their father) it took 3 years for them to speak out. and that it's very unlikely that these officers and child protective services will get any children to talk about the abuse. if they're born in the compound and don't know any other way of life then what do they know?! they don't know it's abuse. it's life as they know it. -- i don't think due process will work.

Originally Posted by Julie Worth
One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.the women and children have not been arrested.

and blacbird - i'm not 14 - geeez! i'm a full grown woman that can handle 3 men. ;)

[blacbird]

no one has been arrested... yet.

Actually, one man has. Although that is for interfering with the law officers, not for any pre-raid charges. Stay tuned.

caw

[NikeeGoddess]

yeah - sorry, i fixed my post before i saw yours
here it is: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23999224#23999224

[mlhernandez]

1 man was arrested for interfering with a police investigation. That's it so far. I'm not sure if he's still in the local jail or not. I'd have to ask my mom, lol. The woman is part of the rumor chain in E-town. Everyone knows everyone so info spreads like wildfire...usually over the back fence.

[aruna]

]



Frankly, I don't care what religion these people are. This has nothing to do with the rest of the world "not tolerating a lifestyle". If a bunch of consenting adults freely choose to cohabit with each other, that's their business -- but THIS is a case of child abuse and sexual assaults. That's not a lifestyle, it's a crime. And if there is enough evidence to show that these things have taken place, someone -- possibly multiple someones -- should be prosecuted.

That sums it up nicely.

[Bartholomew]

Has anyone gone to prison yet?

Why not?

[Queen of Swords]

I have. Have you read Escape? (Sorry, can't remember author's name.)

Carolyn Jessop. I read this book recently, and it's incredible how controlled and brainwashed her children were by the cult. Even after she fled, she had to give her husband unsupervised visitation rights, and IIRC he used that time to persuade the children to tell a CPS person that she was the bad parent.

You send investigators in.

They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.

According to the book, the CPS person told her that he felt sure the kids were lying when they claimed she abused them. However, he wasn't supposed to write down what he thought or suspected, only what he saw and heard. Therefore, he didn't write down anything, since what he saw and heard wouldn't have helped her case.

And these are children who were taken outside the cult. How do you think children inside it would react?

[Julie Worth]

Has anyone gone to prison yet?

Why not?

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

The "victim" they're looking for supposodly made two telephone calls a week before the raid, claiming she married one Dale Barlow and had a child by him. However, this Barlow does not live in Texas, and, according to the New York Times, has not been in that state since 1977. He claims not to know this girl, and Texas has not sought his extradition.

[RumpleTumbler]

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

They haven't burned the place to the ground yet or taken everyone out with snipers.

It's a kinder, gentler engagement.

[Bartholomew]

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

The "victim" they're looking for supposodly made two telephone calls a week before the raid, claiming she married one Dale Barlow and had a child by him. However, this Barlow does not live in Texas, and, according to the New York Times, has not been in that state since 1977. He claims not to know this girl, and Texas has not sought his extradition.

If the police are correct, someone from within the religious group needs to go to prison.

If the police are incorrect, someone from the police force needs to go to prison.

I lean far more towards the first possibility, but in either case----why hasn't someone been punished?

[Julie Worth]

...but in either case----why hasn't someone been punished?

Probably because of the constitution. You do have to have a trial first, and establish guilt.

[Sonneillon]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the CPS was required to investigate ALL charges of child abuse regardless of the person accused or the source. When they investigate, if there is any suspicion of truth to the accusations, it is standard procedure for the children to be removed from the home and/or influence of the accused until the truth can be established.

So to me, all of this looks like everyone is doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.

[dgiharris]

Hi Julie and Brittanmea,

I've been following this post with a morbid curiosity as to understand you and Brittiania's position.

Not to make this personal, but I get the impression that you've never experienced any hardship or situation in which your life, liberty, or property were at risk.

The reason I say this, is because the logic of your arguments and deductions are so idealistic that I would have sworn that they were conducted by theoritical arosticrats debating the hypotheticals over a glass of cognac.

There are times to hold hypothetical moralistic debates, and then there are times for actions.

THere are great quotes out there about how you judge a society by how it treats the poorest or most unfortunate among us. What say you about a society that tolerates the sexual abuse and abandonment of teenage girls and boys?

In this age, in this society, it is morally apprehensible for a teenage girl to be 'married' to an elderly man against her will. PERIOD. And the 'against her will' part is a biggie since they are 'conditioned' since birth that this is the way it is suppose to be. This is a form of slavery and we abholished slavery about 150 yrs ago.

Is it possible that this cult was a peaceful cult and happy go lucky. Yes, it is possible. And IF this is true, then the authorities will FIND NO EVIDENCE to support the claim that there was sexual misconduct.

However, I believe that to be highly improbable. They will find evidence in the form of little kids running around whose mothers are in fact, 15 - 18 yrs old and simple math will determine that these girls had the children when they were 14 - 17 which means that these men had sex with them 13 - 16 which means that statury rape occurred.

Now, I am a strong proponent for our rights and checks and balances of the government. But never, ever ever, ever ever ever, should we turn a blind eye to an attrocity due to a technicalty or hypothetical moralistic bullshit arguments.

Sometimes, the ends do justify the means. But you must ask yourself, if you must error, if you must make a mistake, which side of the fence do you want to make that mistake on. Would you want to error on the side of the children? Or do you want to error on the side of the adults running this compound?

Error on the side of the children, because if it is an error, if you are wrong, then all you will end up doing is pissing off a bunch of law abidding adults.

But if you error on the side of the adults, and are wrong, then you have abandoned scores of little girls and boys to rape, abandonment, and living a daily ritual of fear, pain, and lord knows what else.

Which side should we error on? If you were a little girl living in this compound, what side would you want the authorities to error on?

Mel...

[Bartholomew]

Probably because of the constitution. You do have to have a trial first, and establish guilt.

I think the public is sick of evil bullshit happening without anyone being responsible. Just watch--no one will be accountable for anything on either side.

[Sheryl Nantus]

just like Waco under... oh, wait - that was under Clinton's rule, eh?

:D

[Autodidact]

Good post, dg. But further, what makes Julie and, to a lesser extent, Brittani, convinced that due process is not being followed? There is more than probable cause, and I'm sure they have a warrant. Law enforcement has good reason to believe that crimes are taking place there on a regular basis, crimes with victims. It is their job to enforce the law to protect these victims. How do you suggest they go about doing that?

FLDS is trying to create a little nation, not subject to the laws of the U.S. That ain't gonna work.

I've been following this group and this whole little area of the world for years, and have probably read every book written on the subject. Jeffs and his cronies are not nice people; they are criminal cult-leaders. Before commenting, you really need to inform yourself about them.

Picture it. You're 14 years old. Since you were born, you've been taught every day that your highest calling to be a polygamous wife and bear as many children as possible, and that Warren Jeffs is the prophet of God. One day your dad puts you in the car and tells you, "You've been chosen to marry Joe Smith," who happens to be 75 years old, has 23 wives and 100 children, and whom you've never met. The next day you wake up in his compound, and you're stuck there, never go to high school, cook, clean, take care of kids and get screwed for the rest of your life. That's the basic set-up down there.

[Julie Worth]

But if you error on the side of the adults, and are wrong, then you have abandoned scores of little girls and boys to rape, abandonment, and living a daily ritual of fear, pain, and lord knows what else.

Which side should we error on? If you were a little girl living in this compound, what side would you want the authorities to error on?


What a strange question. Would I want strange men to come barging in with guns and haul me off in buses with First Baptist written on the side of them? I think not.

And I'm on the side of due process, by the way.

[Autodidact]

And exactly how do you think due process is being violated here? Is there no probably cause? No warrant?

[InfinityGoddess]

What a strange question. Would I want strange men to come barging in with guns and haul me off in buses with First Baptist written on the side of them? I think not.

And I'm on the side of due process, by the way.

Due process was followed. A girl called to complain that she was being abused, and the cops acted on it. End of story, except they haven't found the girl yet.

[Julie Worth]

Good post, dg. But further, what makes Julie and, to a lesser extent, Brittani, convinced that due process is not being followed?

That the complainant cannot be produced. That the supposed child cannot be produced. That the supposed husband of the complainant has been found in another state, where he has lived for many years, and professes no knowledge of the complainant. That no effort has been made by the Texas authorities to extradite him. That hundreds have been detained and their homes scoured for evidence, far in excess of any possible legitimate warrant based on two telephone calls from a woman who was apparently not even there.

[rtilryarms]

If evidence and testimony are acquired, they arrest the individuals who are accused and hold a trial.

I think this is what are talking about when we say "due process."

Er, all the above was complete and we have evolved to this task on your checklist. Hence we are no longer arguing since it is senseless to debate agreement.

I am glad I was able to help you see the logical approach.

[RumpleTumbler]

That the complainant cannot be produced. That the supposed child cannot be produced. That the supposed husband of the complainant has been found in another state, where he has lived for many years, and professes no knowledge of the complainant. That no effort has been made by the Texas authorities to extradite him. That hundreds have been detained and their homes scoured for evidence, far in excess of any possible legitimate warrant based on two telephone calls from a woman who was apparently not even there.

Kind of like the call might have been placed by someone at the authorities request so the authorities would have an excuse to go nosing around.

[Sarpedon]

It is true that there have been cases of false complaints being made as a pretext for police action.

[SHBueche]

If anyone is interested in reading a memoir by someone who escaped from the group, check out Carolyn Jessop's "Escape":

80 of 86 people found the following review helpful:
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-4-0._V47081936_.gif Stranger Than Fiction, November 26, 2007
By Tim Challies (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AEYEAH3C78BBZ/ref=cm_cr_dp_pdp) (Oakville, Ontario) - See all my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AEYEAH3C78BBZ/ref=cm_cr_dp_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview)
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Escape is undoubtedly one of the most bizarre memoirs you are ever likely to read. It is small wonder that it quickly made its mark on the New York Times list of bestsellers. Written by Carolyn Jessop, a woman who was born into the Fundamentalist Lattery Day Saints (FLDS), the book describes what it is like to live as part of this cult which is distinctive primarily for its beliefs about polygamy. The FLDS, which emerged in the 1930s as a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon church, holds that God has ordained polygamy and not only that, but that it is a requirement for anyone who wishes to attain the highest level of heaven. Most men eventually have at least three wives, with more prominent members of the cult holding far more than that. Some of the leaders are believed to have fifty, sixty, or even one hundred wives. Women are generally placed with husbands at the whim of the cult's leader (who claims to receive divine guidance about which women belong with certain men). There are around 10,000 adherents to this cult living in the United States today.

Jessop was born into a family that eventually had two wives but one that, compared to others in the community, seemed almost normal. When she was just eighteen, though, she was assigned to become the fourth wife of a fifty-five year old man. While she was married to him he added two more wives and later went on to add five or six more. Through fifteen years of marriage, Jessop gave birth to eight children. Through her marriage she suffered constant abuse at the hands of her husband, his other wives, and other members of the community. Though for much of her life she believed the claims of the FLDS religion, she eventually began to see through its hypocrisy and decided that, for the good of herself and her children, she would need to escape from it.

Escape from FLDS is not easy. Their tight-knit communities have immense power and wealth. Even the local police officers are members of the cult and will not support a wife who seeks to emancipate herself or her family. Until Jessop, no woman had managed to escape the clutches of the cult with all of her children. Jessop, though, ran from the cult and fought against it in the courts, eventually winning full custody of her eight children. This was no small victory. In fact, it was worth telling in a book.

While the book is a definite page-turner (as both my wife and I can attest) it is not always easy to read. The descriptions of life in the FLDS are at times horrific. There were several areas that I found particularly interesting.

Jessop is frank (though not vulgar or graphic) in her discussions about sexuality within her plural marriage and well she needs to be, for sex plays a strange but crucial role in these marriages. Though the women generally hate their husbands, they still want to have sex with him--not for the sake of love or intimacy, but because sex is power. The wife who gains sexual favor with her husband is the wife who can use him to further her own desires. Often these desires pit her against the other wives. It is an odd situation where wives who hate their husband seek to have sex (which they hate) with their husband (whom they hate) so they can further their hate-filled plans towards each other. So much, then, for the idealized content of "sister wives" that the cult seeks to portray to the world.

This book and its description of life within plural marriage shows that marriage--marriage as given to us in the Bible--serves as protection for women. When people ignore biblically-ordained marriage, women immediately lose the protection it affords. They quickly become subservient to men. The women always lose out.

Perhaps the most shocking thing to remember while reading the book is that it takes place in twenty-first century America. This is not fundamentalist Islam in the Middle East; this is not the earliest days of Mormonism. This is happening in the very heart of America--women are treated like cattle, used to breed children and bought, sold and traded like so many goods. In America. It is almost unbelievable.

While the FLDS is hardly an accurate representation of average religion and bears little resemblance to Christianity or even to Mormonism, this portrayal is increasingly what people think of when they think about religion. More and more people are becoming convinced that all religion tends towards extremism and a book like this may just fuel those fires. This story is awful to read, but it is written well and is for some reason quite fascinating.

(from a review at Amazon.com)

[Autodidact]

That the complainant cannot be produced. That the supposed child cannot be produced. That the supposed husband of the complainant has been found in a another state, where he has lived for many years, and professes no knowledge of the complainant. That no effort has been made by the Texas authorities to extradite him. That hundreds have been detained and their homes soured for evidence, far in excess of any possible legitimate warrant based on two telephone calls from a woman who was apparently not even there.

None of those are due process issues. Those are issues for trial. btw, you're saying that the complainant can't be produced, but that's because the FLDS people have her stashed away and won't let her out. So, let's say hypothetically the complainant is getting beaten every day. How can the state help her, if they can't even talk to her?

[traininvain]

What a strange question. Would I want strange men to come barging in with guns and haul me off in buses with First Baptist written on the side of them? I think not.

You know, I'm sure that experience was traumatizing for a lot of the kids, but I imagine that they're being saved ten times the amount of emotional scars by getting out of that environment sooner rather than later.

You also seem to be ignoring what several other people have repeated a few times now: Over one hundred of the women left the compound voluntarily, of their own volition, when given the opportunity by the police.

This isn't about freedom of religion-- it's about a cult that's putting the welfare of children at risk.

[talkwrite]

Just looking at the potential damage done to these women and children has inspired me to say- it's time to donate to the San Angelo, Texas CPS.

[SHBueche]

MLHernandez you have some fascinating tidbits to share with us, thank you so much. Have you thought about contacting anyone with the media?

[Julie Worth]

You also seem to be ignoring what several other people have repeated a few times now: Over one hundred of the women left the compound voluntarily, of their own volition, when given the opportunity by the police.

Uh huh. If your children were being taken away by force, would you want to go with them?

[William Haskins]

Uh huh. If your children were being taken away by force, would you want to go with them?

betcha this one would.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24009286/

but i'm sure she's lying... you now, so the government can go in and violate these wonderful people's rights...

[Joe270]

That hundreds have been detained and their homes scoured for evidence, far in excess of any possible legitimate warrant based on two telephone calls from a woman who was apparently not even there.

I'm wondering if she's not in a well-hidden grave somewhere on all that acreage.

[mlhernandez]

SB~

Nah, I have absolutely no interest in speaking with the media. A few years ago when he story broke big CNN sent Anderson Cooper (my favorite silver fox, lol) and a ton of other reporters down to Eldorado and to their other compounds. They did a few days worth of shows that were very enlightening. Randy Mankin, the editor/owner/reporter of the local paper, The Eldorado Success, has done a lot over the years to get the story out of our area and into bigger Texas papers and even a few nationals.

And anyways, having the big media in E-town has been a HUGE hassle. The Catholic Church is located just a smidge down the road that leads to the compound so all week CNN and FOX news and other regional media have been parked in the church parking lot. My mom couldn't even get to Mass on Saturday evening. Jeez!

~Maria

[mlhernandez]

Joe~

Unfortunately, you could be right. I'm just amazed by the number of kids and women they keep finding every day. They've got them hidden all over that ranch. Last night they found a guy hiding in the brush with some sort of "Item" of interest. They also found four more kids and an adult (don't know if it was a man or woman) hiding in a shop.

According to my Mom (queen of all things gossip) and the local paper, the FBI is now on the ranch...

[Gary]

I'm going to go against popular sentiments, but before we jump on any bandwagons, perhaps we should ask ourselves a few questions.

While I share the revulsion for fixed marriages, and I certainly don’t support child rape, I worry that passion in this case might be overriding respect for the civil rights of many of our citizens. It’s sounds like a ham-handed approach to find one girl, based on a phone call.

If the raid had been conducted in a Muslim community, would there be as strong acceptance of the government’s actions? Would we dare intrude on their culture, where the role of women appears to have similarities? Wouldn’t we think about their rights being assaulted, especially if we housed those women and children in a “non-believer” church?

Our mainstream culture has devolved to the point that we blithely accept teen and even pre-teen sex to be acceptable as long as proper protection is used. If sex at that age is arguably okay, why is marriage a no-no? At what point does the age of the male become an issue? Isn’t it really the “eeeww” factor that’s the bigger problem for some people? What is the reasoning behind laws that determine the age of consent?

It’s not that uncommon to read about the eighty-year-old man, who marries a twenty-year-old woman and fathers a child. When the news media gets wind, they turn it into an evening news fluff-piece, and some bozo with a microphone and a hundred-dollar haircut, tells us how cute it is, especially if the man is a celebrity. Perhaps even a subtle joke about Viagra makes the cut.

Conversely, if a sixty-year-old woman marries a man in his twenties, and gives birth to a child, she’s admired for her ability to retain her youth and her sexuality. You go girl! Some might think it’s cute, but I personally find both situations revolting.

If the numbers I hear bandied about are correct, perhaps a third of the compound’s population was removed. Yes, I’m sure some of those folks were pleased to leave, but I can’t believe that everyone wanted to be forcibly taken from their homes, and I can’t believe all 400 were suspected of being a party to some crime. Did the women leave only so they could be with their children, or were they truly relieved to be freed of a repugnant situation?

Just as the government overreacted in Waco, I think they are overreacting today…and I find it strange that some of this forum’s most vocal advocates of civil rights are either silent, or are on the side of the mass breakup of family units.

[PattiTheWicked]

What a strange question. Would I want strange men to come barging in with guns and haul me off in buses with First Baptist written on the side of them? I think not.



I'd suspect it's far less traumatizing to be packed off in a bus than to be raped at 14 by someone my parents' religious leader has assigned me as a husband.

[mlhernandez]

I feel the need to point out that the First Baptist church buses were used because they have SEATBELTS that would allow a car seat to be used. Older children and women were also transported on school buses. It's not as if Eldorado has a ton of school buses to use for transporting these people. It was also a school day so the buses the local school district owns were being used to, you know, take kids home. Using First Baptist buses wasn't some kind of religious insult. They're just buses!

Also they weren't housed in a church or anything like that. They were taken to the local civic center for the first few days before being moved to Fort Concho in San Angelo.

And I'm not sure where this idea of "barging in with guns" comes from? CPS workers attempted to conduct interviews on the YFZ ranch on Thursday evening (4/3/2008.) The sect guards refused entry and refused to produce the girl. The Texas Rangers (who have been building a case for years), DPS, Midland SWAT and Schleicher County Sheriff's department were finally able to gain entry on Friday (4/4/08) morning by driving an APC to the gates (where armed men and rows of vehicles were parked.) Midland SWAT explained that they needed to open the gate or they would open it themselves. At that point, sect members said they would produce the girl--and yet they still haven't.

Once the gate was open, from what I understand, there was no "barging in with guns." The police force entered the compound and began their investigation with CPS. Even when they wanted to search the temple, they negotiated a peaceful entry. In none of the hundreds of pictures taken by various media outlets are there any photos of police officers with guns drawn. (Maybe I haven't seen them. I'm fairly certain if there were these kinds of photos, they'd be splashed all over CNN and FOX.) If anything, the police officers have tried to shield these women and children. They stood in long lines and held sheets as barriers to the media so the women and children could get on and off buses without having their photos taken.

I'm sorry if I seem a bit upset, but quite frankly, I don't understand how a legal (and probably necessary) investigation by Texas authorities is any more traumatizing than being forced into a "celestial" marriage with your relative (cuz at this point, they're all related) at fifteen or sixteen.

[TerzaRima]

Would we dare intrude on their culture, where the role of women appears to have similarities?

Remarkably broad brush, there.

[reigningcatsndogs]

While I share the revulsion for fixed marriages, and I certainly don’t support child rape, I worry that passion in this case might be overriding respect for the civil rights of many of our citizens. It’s sounds like a ham-handed approach to find one girl, based on a phone call.



I am honestly trying to understand the perspective here. Maybe you could explain how you think it should have been handled. Maybe if we look at it from that perspective, I could understand where you and Julie are coming from. Could you please explain to me -- not what the authorities did wrong but rather what they should have done to do it right?

As for the religious argument, I cannot see it at all. This is nothing to do with religion at all. This is about laws being broken, women and girls being victimized, a young lady's call for help... it wouldn't matter a tinker's damn what religion they were and so that shouldn't even enter into how the situation should be handled.

[johnnysannie]

It’s not that uncommon to read about the eighty-year-old man, who marries a twenty-year-old woman and fathers a child.
.

If the I find it strange that some of this forum’s most vocal advocates of civil rights are either silent, or are on the side of the mass breakup of family units.

For one, I don't think it's very common at all to hear about 80 year old men with a twenty-year old bride but even if that is - as Gary indicates - a common scenario, a twenty year old YOUNG WOMAN who marries an 80 year old man of her own free will is a far cry from a teen-age girl forced into a marriage with a man more than three times her age.

And, in addition, I cannot and do not see that polygamists living in a locked compound, many against their own free will, are "family units".

What about the civil rights of the teenagers forced into marriage or the women forced to share a husband with other wives?

[Julie Worth]

polygamists living in a locked compound


I think it’s very odd that, here we’re on day 4 or 5, and none of these hundreds of detainees have made bail, none of them have been allowed to talk to the press. Is this Fort Concho some sort of Guantanamo for religious sects?

Here’s a quote from an article in the Salt Lake Tribune:

Back at Fort Concho, media watched as a group of 9 young boys were walking around a grassy parade field. The boys approached the fence at one end of the field, where reporters called out to ask if they were being treated well.

One young man shook his head, no. As reporters moved closer to the fence, a CPS worker called the boys back to the buildings. One older boy then appeared to be being scolded by the worker.

Officers then approached the media and told them to move across the street.

[Gary]

Remarkably broad brush, there.

In what way?

[rugcat]

Our mainstream culture has devolved to the point that we blithely accept teen and even pre-teen sex to be acceptable as long as proper protection is used. Pre-teen sex, acceptable? Is that everywhere, or just Texas?

[mlhernandez]

Detainees? Bail? This isn't Guantanamo! There are 133 women who voluntarily left the compound. There are 401 children under the age of 17 who have been taken into legal custody for their own protection pending an investigation.

Two men have been arrested. One was arrested for interfering with a police investigation. The second was arrested for tampering with evidence. As to whether or not they've been granted bail, I don't know.

[blacbird]

If the police are correct, someone from within the religious group needs to go to prison.

If the police are incorrect, someone from the police force needs to go to prison.

I lean far more towards the first possibility, but in either case----why hasn't someone been punished?

The leader of this group, Warren Jeffs, is in fact in prison right this minute, and will be for a long time. Now, what specific charges got him put there happened in Utah, but he is personally responsible for the establishment of the Texas compound and the manner in which it operates. Which, by all accounts, mirrors his group's activities in Utah.

Authorities have all kinds of good reasons to be concerned about this outfit. They received information of potential criminal activity, and took the action necessary to investigate it. A couple people here think they made it all up, with utterly no basis for that belief, but most of us would prefer to be rational. We'll hear a lot more out of this story as matters unfold, and I'm fairly sure there will be some charges filed and ultimately adjudicated.

caw

[blacbird]

I think it’s very odd that, here we’re on day 4 or 5, and none of these hundreds of detainees have made bail, none of them have been allowed to talk to the press.


I believe exactly two people are being held under conditions of bail (which may not yet have been set, because I don't know that any arraignments have taken place). But, again, let's not let factual accuracy get in the way of a good sound polemic.

caw

[Julie Worth]

But, again, let's not let factual accuracy get in the way of a good sound polemic.

caw

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Hundreds of people are being held without bail, officially arrested or not. Are you saying that bail has been set for these people, or that they aren't being held? Or perhaps you're didactically questioning my use of "none," because, in fact, two people have officially been arrested, and so might have made bail, even though you don't have a clue. If so, this is trivial and asinine.

[Gary]

I am honestly trying to understand the perspective here. Maybe you could explain how you think it should have been handled. Maybe if we look at it from that perspective, I could understand where you and Julie are coming from. Could you please explain to me -- not what the authorities did wrong but rather what they should have done to do it right?

As for the religious argument, I cannot see it at all. This is nothing to do with religion at all. This is about laws being broken, women and girls being victimized, a young lady's call for help... it wouldn't matter a tinker's damn what religion they were and so that shouldn't even enter into how the situation should be handled.


I concur with a need to investigate the phone call, but they weren't called to investigate 400 cases. In my opinion, they should have entered the compound with a search warrant to discover facts pertaining to that single case. If the investigation led to another illegal "family" situation, you get another search warrant and investigate that.

Despite reasonable suspicions, there is no way they can have probable cause to mass investigate that many cases. Plural marriages are not allowed in any state, so the only question the state can ask is if illegal sex with a minor has taken place. What other charges could be made against consenting adults living under the same roof?

Don't misunderstand, I think they are all nutty, but I don't like the way the case is being handled because it sets precedents. I thought the Texas Rangers were smarter than the feds involved in the Waco massacre, but I'm beginning to wonder.

[William Haskins]

I concur with a need to investigate the phone call, but they weren't called to investigate 400 cases. In my opinion, they should have entered the compound with a search warrant to discover facts pertaining to that single case. If the investigation led to another illegal "family" situation, you get another search warrant and investigate that.

no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

[Gary]

Pre-teen sex, acceptable? Is that everywhere, or just Texas?

It must be acceptable to many people, since junior high schools are often tasked with handing out condoms, and parents are denied knowledge school officials might have about the sexual activity of their children. Perhaps it's been too long since I've had kids in school, but that's what I hear reported.

[brittanimae]

First of all, I have to say that I so much appreciate all the response this thread has received. Issues like this really aren't cut and dried, and a democracy only works when it is supported and upheld by the people. The responses to this thread demonstrate a level of thought and concern that I think is a credit to AW (well, most of them ;) )

Thanks especially for your post Gary, and also the person who posted from Texas, giving us a better vantage point.

My own current feeling about the situation as it has evolved, is that this community gave off strong warning signals that indicated some type of investigation was needed. But I feel that law-enforcement and CPS have over-stepped the authority given them by law, and in addition to this, I feel that media coverage has been sensational and inappropriate.

On the first count, I don't believe that 400 children should have been taken from their mothers. The mothers don't seem to be under suspicion, and taking the children from their care seems extreme. Of course they followed, but "by choice" is a stretch. If the men are being investigated, they should be detained for questioning. The women and children should be allowed to stay if they prefer.

On the second count, the media coverage has been inappropriate. I have seen interviews with random people where they do nothing but gasp "Oh my! These children don't know what a television is! They wanted to clean stuff! They were holding real babies instead of dolls and seemed to know how to care for them! They eat fruit and nuts and no potato chips!"

These things tell me that these people are living a different lifestyle. One that I don't choose, but one that seems to have benefits as well as drawbacks. I want to hear THEIR side. Not of one woman who left--she obviously didn't care for it--but from the ones who have stayed voluntarily--and by most accounts there are some of these.

I know this is getting long, so I'll finish with this. Someone asked about my peachy-keen view of how things should work. I have a father who is a convicted felon as a result of false charges and manufactured evidence brought against him by (you guessed it) my mother. He is also nearly bankrupt after fighting the charges tooth and nail over several years. I watched first-hand the gross miscarriage of justice brought about by overzealous law-enforcement officers and prosecutors. So, yeah, I'm not one to jump to conclusions.

[blacbird]

no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

In addition to which there is the simple matter of securing a crime scene. It's not at all uncommon for police to order evacuation of a house when they are looking for a single criminal. They had every right to order evacuation of those premises, and every good reason for doing so. And they seem to have done so with optimum efficiency and concern for safety.

caw

[Gary]

no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

Empowerment and common sense seldom go together when any government entity is involved.

[Sarpedon]

Oh come now. We are talking about an armed camp, and a hierarchical organization. You can't just send a few officers into an armed camp to intervene with a single family there. Why? because those officers' lives would be at risk.

And if a member of a group commits a crime, that doesn't necessarily implicate the entire group. But if the policy of a hierarchical organization is criminal, it DOES implicate the entire organization.

Jesus, would people come out of the woodwork to protect Enron like this? Or some mafia family? How many cults need to commit mass suicide, sexual abuse, and/or violence before you accept that cults are bad news and need to be watched? Guess what, there are lots of cults that aren't constantly harrassed by law enforcement. Because they don't pull this kind of shit. Why does a group that is peaceful and law abiding need to set up a fortified compound manned by armed guards in the middle of the friggin desert?

[Julie Worth]

no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.


The search warrant they were operating under was almost unlimited.

[DWSTXS]

and I guarantee you that probably EVERY law enforcement officer out there has had it drummed into their heads that they need to take EVERY precaution available to ensure that this does not turn into a Ruby Ridge or Branch Davidian fiasco.

I'm sure that they are being ultra careful.

[Esopha]

no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

Actually, I think once they got the warrant and entered the compound they would be able to investigate even further under reasonable suspicion, which is a lower threshold than probable cause and was most likely what they used to detain the victims.

That said, people can't be arrested under reasonable suspicion, so it's doubtful that these 400 women and children were actually arrested (which has already been said).

Reasonable suspicion can be used in conjucture with probable cause and can be based on inference without violating the 4th Amendment.

So the police really haven't done anything wrong here, as far as I can see. And honestly, the freedom of religion does not in any circumstances allow breaking US law in the name of that religion. See Reynolds v. US here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States

Sorry for jumping in on a technicality, but one of my major pet peeves is when people get the Constitution messed up, so I wanted to support Haskins here... carry on.

[Julie Worth]

That said, people can't be arrested under reasonable suspicion, so it's doubtful that these 400 women and children were actually arrested (which has already been said).


Detention without arrest is limited to 2 days, right?

[dgiharris]

I think I understand the core of the arguments against the search and siezure of the little girls. I believe the argument is that it is a slippery slope of abuse of power by the government.

The argument then splits into the particular. Did the Government have just cause? What action should the government have taken for this one little girl that may or may not exist?

To me, the question is a larger one. What is the duty of the government to its people? The reason why these cases bring such outrage has nothing to do with religion. Like someone stated earlier, I could care less if they were MOrmoms, baptists, or cement workers. The intentional subjugation of little girls and boys is deplorable.

But why? If these are a community of people that have chosen to live this way, then why should the government care? Why should we care? What harm is there in this type of life?

The answer to this question and my outrage I think can be found in the founding words of this country. The Declaration of Independence is the soul of this country and the precursor to the constitution.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

The one saving grace of America is our belief that above all is, above the law, above government, is the INHERENT RIGHT OF MAN. It is this spirit that enabled us to rise above slavery, to move towards civil rights, and is the momentum that will eventually lead to equal rights for all (next up gay marriage).

Being born a human being in this country means you automatically have rights. Not just rights, INALIENABLE rights. Just becuase your parents want to sell you into slavery does not mean they get to do so.

These camps (independant of religious context) are so fundamentally against the soul of this country that it is a wonder how they are still in existence.

It is situations like these that are at the heart of Machiavelli politics. In a nutshell, Machiavelli proposed that in order for a state to serve the best interests of its people, it will sometimes have to act in an immoral way (usually against other states). This whole incident is an example of what a state must sometimes do.

I take the position that the phone call was fake. And you know what. I really don't care. It is the duty of the state to do what it needs to do (time to time) in order to best serve the interests of its people.

I equate this to a police officer not writting you a ticket as you rush your pregnant wife to the hospital. did you break the law by speeding? Yes. Did you get a ticket? No. Why? Common Sense and human decentcy.

The same applies in reverse to this example. The government needs a little bit of a 'pass' on this one. The suspicion of wrong doing (by the cult) is sooo strong I can smell it from California. As a society, if we can't give our government a wink wink nudge nudge pass on something this blatant, then we do not deserve the liberty and freedom that we have.

I simply refuse to put a technicality above the potential loss of liberty (and life) of little boys and girls.

But with all that said, the government did a decent enough CYA (cover your ass) job and has sufficient evidence and just cause for the actions it has taken.

Mel...

[Autodidact]

Polygamy itself is a crime; even in Texas. No one disputes that this group practices mass polygamy.

[Esopha]

Detention without arrest is limited to 2 days, right?

I honestly have no idea.

If it is, then we have to assume they've all become wards of the state in the last five days or something, which I guess is possible.

[Mr. Fix]

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

The "victim" they're looking for supposodly made two telephone calls a week before the raid, claiming she married one Dale Barlow and had a child by him. However, this Barlow does not live in Texas, and, according to the New York Times, has not been in that state since 1977. He claims not to know this girl, and Texas has not sought his extradition.

The Media's claim to our invation of Iraq was WMD. The Administation claim was due to the UN resolution 1441 and not under any false pretext. You should try to do research on the facts instead of relying upon your pre-conceived notions and opinions.

The raid on the FLDS compound is based on investigation and not some knee-jerk reaction.

[Julie Worth]

I equate this to a police officer not writting you a ticket as you rush your pregnant wife to the hospital. did you break the law by speeding? Yes. Did you get a ticket? No. Why? Common Sense and human decentcy.

The same applies in reverse to this example. The government needs a little bit of a 'pass' on this one.

This, I'm afraid, is what many here think. But it leads straight to totalitarianism.

[Julie Worth]

The Media's claim to our invation of Iraq was WMD. The Administation claim was due to the UN resolution 1441 and not under any false pretext. You should try to do research on the facts instead of relying upon your pre-conceived notions and opinions.

The raid on the FLDS compound is based on investigation and not some knee-jerk reaction.

The US wrangled its resolution based on manufactured and distorted evidence. An lo, there was no WFD--how embarrassing. The raid on the FLDS compound was based on a couple of phone calls that might have been pranks, but they were itching to go in, and ready to jump at any excuse. And lo, no 16 year old. The situations are perfectly comparable.

[InfinityGoddess]

This, I'm afraid, is what many here think. But it leads straight to totalitarianism.

Not when they're doing it in a legal manner. Which they did.

[brittanimae]

The same applies in reverse to this example. The government needs a little bit of a 'pass' on this one. The suspicion of wrong doing (by the cult) is sooo strong I can smell it from California. As a society, if we can't give our government a wink wink nudge nudge pass on something this blatant, then we do not deserve the liberty and freedom that we have.

Mel...

Awesome post Mel--I think you put into words what so many of us feel.

Only on this bit I have to comment that for a time during the 80s there was mass hysteria over suspected sexual abuse in daycares. A bunch of people were wrongfully convicted, but it took years for the truth to come out. Nobody wants preschoolers molested, but if we don't act with care and caution, we end up with some pretty bad consequences for innocent people.

Some of those kids being detained will say exactly what they think their questioners want to hear. If this situation is investigated with care, I hope that any resulting convictions will be based on truth, not supposition.

[Sarpedon]

I am not for giving the government 'a pass'. I do not think that the government has exceeded its authority under the law in this case.

I for one am sick and tired of seeing religious groups 'get a pass' on crimes that would get any other group suppressed. I'm sick of religious leaders who think they are above the law. You are free to believe whatever you wish. You are not free to do whatever you want, whether you have a 'Mister' in front of your name, or whether its 'Father' or 'Yogi' or 'Doctor' or 'Prophet.'

[Gary]

Jesus, would people come out of the woodwork to protect Enron like this? Or some mafia family?

If they rounded up every employee in the Enron headquarters, or half the population of some New Jersey neighborhoods, I hope we all would.

[blacbird]

Polygamy itself is a crime; even in Texas. No one disputes that this group practices mass polygamy.

Although, nobody is being charged with polygamy, as far as I've heard. Or even investigated for that reason. This has everything to do with sexual abuse of minors.

caw

[blacbird]

The situations are perfectly comparable.

Man, I gotta get me some of that ganja being smoked down there in Martinique these days.

caw

[mscelina]

The women and children have been placed in foster homes, not under arrest, pending invsitgation of their individual cases. Some of the young women (girls of about Sophie's age) are completely terrified, which is completely understandable. They are not being imprisoned against their will--they are being housed, fed, and counseled. The two people arrested are male. The rest are just victims. Might want to check out the realities of the situation before tarring this incident with a brush that wasn't used.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5684217.html

just sayin'...

[Sheryl Nantus]

all propaganda, I tell you!

Roswell! Roswell!

:D

[Mr. Fix]

The US wrangled its resolution based on manufactured and distorted evidence. An lo, there was no WFD--how embarrassing. The raid on the FLDS compound was based on a couple of phone calls that might have been pranks, but they were itching to go in, and ready to jump at any excuse. And lo, no 16 year old. The situations are perfectly comparable.

Yes, they are compairable. Evidence in BOTH cases show that a preemtive strike was not only justified but necessary to protect neighbors who were also in danger by the actions of the tyrannical leadership.

(I would direct you to links on this, but their are just too many that exist now. But, of course, some of them are from FOX News - and as every liberal knows - they lie.)

And really we should stay on the topic of the FLDS compound. (My apologies to all the others out there staying focused.)

[mscelina]

Jesus Christ. Can't we discuss something like this issue without forever dragging the war in Iraq into it? Aren't you guys TIRED of this yet? One of the greatest attributes a political mind can have is the ability to be on topic. One of the worst is to have only one.

Get over it. Rant about the war in Iraq in a thread dedicated to it. Can we possibly discuss a topic in this forum that doesn't fit into the anti-war agenda?

yeah. Probably not. You should never miss a chance to broadcast your platform. My bad.

Let's get back to the discussion at hand if you please.

[William Haskins]

ELDORADO, Texas (AP) - Court documents say the 16-year-old girl (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=girl&sid=breitbart.com) whose call triggered the police raid (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=police%20raid&sid=breitbart.com) on a polygamist sect's Texas compound said that her husband beat her.

The San Angelo Standard-Times newspaper is citing the court documents as also saying the girl was the seventh wife of a sect member who is named in an arrest warrant (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=arrest%20warrant&sid=breitbart.com) on possible abuse charges.

The newspaper says the girl told authorities at a family violence shelter that her husband hit her in the chest and choked her while another woman held her infant child at the sect's Yearn for Zion Ranch.
Court documents on file Tuesday were the basis for Child Protective Services' request that a judge grant it custody (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=custody&sid=breitbart.com) of all 401 children removed from the ranch.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VTTB480&show_article=1&catnum=0

[RumpleTumbler]

Yeah....Yearn for Zion or we'll kick the living shit out of you.

[Sonneillon]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Enough.

[mscelina]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Enough.

Something wrong with that link when I posted it an hour ago? And enough of what?

[Sonneillon]

It's a different link to a similar article, not the same link, and enough of all this "they've failed to produce the girl! Abuse of due process! ABUSE OF DUE PROCESS!" bit.

[mscelina]

*it is the same article*--The Yahoo article was taken from the Houston Chronicle article that had been released earlier. ;) No worries.

But yes, your point is valid. Best to always let us know what you're saying "Enough" about though. Rumple Tumbler might think you mean he's eating too much of the pasta.

[Sonneillon]

*it is the same article*--The Yahoo article was taken from the Houston Chronicle article that had been released earlier. ;) No worries.

But yes, your point is valid. Best to always let us know what you're saying "Enough" about though. Rumple Tumbler might think you mean he's eating too much of the pasta.

Sorry, I read both and found some differences, but it's probably a blatant steal. Yahell's known for that.

And there IS enough of eating too much pasta. *says this because she just got back from eating too much pasta and is now tummy-sick* :cry:

[mscelina]

BLASPHEMER!

There is NO such thing as eating too much pasta...unless it's Rumple stealing ours. Get the forum rules right. ;)

[RumpleTumbler]

There is NO such thing as eating too much pasta...unless it's Rumple stealing ours. Get the forum rules right. ;)

Mmmm blueberry pasta.

[johnnysannie]

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

The Catholic Church also dealt with the issues of sexual abuse with minors and at no time did the Catholic Church round up members, lock them in a compound, tell them what to wear, and force young girls to "marry" men old enough to be their grandfather.

There is absolutely no comparison between what has happened in the polygamist compound and the Catholic Church. None.

And let us not forget that minors are sexually abused by Protestant clergy as well but since Protestants are of many demoninations, each incident is considered an isolated, indiviudal event. Since the Catholic Church is worldwide and has a complex hierarchy, any abuse case anywhere becomes one of the many.

[johnnysannie]

It must be acceptable to many people, since junior high schools are often tasked with handing out condoms, and parents are denied knowledge school officials might have about the sexual activity of their children. Perhaps it's been too long since I've had kids in school, but that's what I hear reported.

I can't argue the point on this one; my daughters are in middle school (grades 5-8) and last year they presented a very graphic program on sexual education, far more information than I personally thought children in this age group (my daughters were in 5th grade, age 11 at the time) needed and discussed things that I personally feel is the parent's right to discuss.

[Julie Worth]

There is absolutely no comparison between what has happened in the polygamist compound and the Catholic Church. None.


I agree completely. With the Catholics there was proof, but no rush to judgement.

[William Haskins]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0408081texas1.html

the affidavit.

or as julie might term it: "some made up stuff that the big bad authorities are using to oppress innocent and devout people".

[Julie Worth]

The Catholic Church also dealt with the issues of sexual abuse with minors and at no time did the Catholic Church round up members, lock them in a compound, tell them what to wear, and force young girls to "marry" men old enough to be their grandfather.



It's all in how you word things. To use the religion I grew up in for example: This Catholic cult is also known to establish compounds in out of the way places, where the members are sexually segregated and required to wear shapeless robes out of the middle ages. In many cases they are deprived of television, of newspapers, of any contact with the modern world. Except for the highest members of the sect, they are not allowed to wear red. They have compounds for the children too, where the girls are forced to wear plaid skirts and the boys khaki pants. On occasion they force the children into small booths where they are required to tell an old man everything they've done wrong. Even sexual things. How perverse is that! When some of these girls grow up, they are so addled that they want to marry the founder of the church, who is not only horribly old, but has been dead for two thousand years!

[RumpleTumbler]

When some of these girls grow up, they are so addled that they want to marry the founder of the church, who is not only horribly old, but has been dead for two thousand years!

The sexual demands of the dead are likely less intrusive.

[johnnysannie]

I agree completely. With the Catholics there was proof, but no rush to judgement.

No, you don't agree. Nor do you understand what it was I said in my post.

And it is also important to remember than in many of the sexual abuse cases against the Catholic Church that the incidents happened decades before, many as long ago as the 1950's. Some cases were more current but the majority were not.

And in this polygamy case, the abuse was ongoing and current.

That aside, it would also seem that you have some serious anti-Catholic views because frankly I don't see any other reason to single out a particular denomination in a thread about a current event including a polygamous offshoot of the main Mormom faith.

I'm not going to get into any additional Catholic debates in this thread; it would be pointless because it is apparent you won't change your views but your posts illustrate the reality that even in 2008, there is a great deal of anti-Catholic sentiment in this United States

[Julie Worth]

No, you don't agree.

I guess we'll have to disagree on our agreement.

[johnnysannie]

I guess we'll have to disagree on our agreement.

That and well beyond.

[johnnysannie]

It's all in how you word things. This Catholic cult is also known to establish compounds in out of the way places, where the members are sexually segregated and required to wear shapeless robes out of the middle ages. In many cases they are deprived of television, of newspapers, of any contact with the modern world. Except for the highest members of the sect, they are not allowed to wear red. They have compounds for the children too, where the girls are forced to wear plaid skirts and the boys khaki pants. On occassion they force the children into small booths where they are required to tell an old man everything they've done wrong. Even sexual things. How perverse is that! When some of these girls grow up, they are so addled that they want to marry the founder of the church, who is not only horribly old, but has been dead for two thousand years!

This is the most ridiculous nonsense that I have ever heard. It is rampant anti-Catholic propaganda and has no place in this thread or IMO these forums.
This bullshit sounds like it came from a Chick tract and twists every belief of the Catholic Church to suit Julie Worth's perverse views.

[johnnysannie]

Why don't we all get together for a witch hunt?

It would seem you are already having one against Catholics.

[Azure Skye]

http://helpthechildbrides.com/

[Julie Worth]

This is the most ridiculous nonsense that I have ever heard.

Of course! And that's my point, that's it's just a matter of wording. All of it is true, but when put in this way, it seems outlandish and horrible. You could attack any religion, or any culture, by stripping it to its most ridiculous features and reporting those unsympathetically.

[Cranky]

Of course! And that's my point, that's it's just a matter of wording. All of it is true, but when put in this way, it seems outlandish and horrible. You could attack any religion, or any culture, by stripping it to its most ridiculous features and reporting those unsympathetically.


Call me judgemental, but I'm not too sympathetic towards marrying minors off to men old enough to be their grandfathers.

[cethklein]

I'll admit right now, I have a fascination with cults and off-shoot sects and have studied them immenseley. One thing people need to be thankful for is the fact that warren steed Jeffs was already locked up when this happened. The man is sadistic and a tyrant in every sense of the word. Had he been present at the compound it could very well have turned into another Waco as Jeffs is VERY similar to Koresh in personality and actions.

Also for those unaware this has happened before, most notably the Short Creek raid in the early 50s. They group continued on after that, although I hope this time given greater media coverage I hope the group will finally fall apart. Although expect their lawyers to pul lthe "our clients are being religiously persecuated." bit, in fact I hear they already are fillnig motions. Most cults pull this stun when backed into a corner.

The biggest worry here is deprogramming these poor people, especially the women, as they've lived under these rules longer. Many children are still impressionable so it may be not so bad but still not easy as they're also likely scared out of their wits.

It will be interesting to see if Rick Ross and others try to get involved. Ross's techniques are questionable, despite the fact he is well-versed in deprogramming.

Another thing I hope they are watching closely is Bountiful, in Canada. It is the other main compound for this cult outside the twin cities in Utah and Arizona. I hope the leaders up their don't get desperate and try something. What makes it dangerous is unlike Koresh's followers, most of whom were newly converted in the years leading up to Waco, most of these people are third, fourth, fifth, or even sixth generation FLDS.

[InfinityGoddess]

Call me judgemental, but I'm not too sympathetic towards marrying minors off to men old enough to be their grandfathers.


I agree with this.

[cethklein]

So? Can people commit crimes just because their religion says so? Suppose I were to convert to the worship of Huitzilopochtli, would that permit me to perform human sacrifice?


Hey if you're looking into that I can hook you up with a group. But it's BYOS (Bring Your Own Sacrifice) They also prefer you shave them first to keep it less messy. s

:P

[Dawno]

Get back to discussing the main topic with less inflammatory language. I'm especially talking about posts which set up a deliberately offensive "comparison" with another religion to give oneself a platform to bash another religion. Continuation of such tactics will be met with stronger measures than this warning.

[Soccer Mom]

Back to the main topic, they have released some of the details of the investigation...


But she said investigators found many disturbing signs of abuse during the search for children. Officials "observed a number of young teenaged girls who appeared to be minors and appeared to be pregnant, as well as several teenage girls who already had given birth and had their own infants," said the affidavit signed by Lynn McFadden, a Department of Family and Protective Services investigative supervisor.


Story in the Star-telegram (http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/568906.html)

[Williebee]

I'm just so excited that my hometown (San Angelo) is back in the news.

I think the last time we got this much broadcast news attention was when the manure pile at the stockyards caught fire and they had to evacuate all the neighborhoods around it.

Before that it was a Fickle Finger of Fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_&_Martin's_Laugh-In) award for having a lake that caught fire and burned.

[cethklein]

Get back to discussing the main topic with less inflammatory language. I'm especially talking about posts which set up a deliberately offensive "comparison" with another religion to give oneself a platform to bash another religion. Continuation of such tactics will be met with stronger measures than this warning.

Agreed. Why is it any time someone calls out a "religion" someone always responds with "Waaaah but {insert religion} does it too!"

So what? We're talking about the FLDS, not any other rleigion. If someone made a topic discussing Catholic priests and sex abuse, it should remain about that, not go off on a tangent about Scientologists and the laundry list of crap they've done. Same here, let's keep this about FLDS. I find whenever someone uses a "but they do it too" argument, that usually means they have nothing else legitimate to say.

In donig so, i also think that those acting like the raids were "wrong" need to open your eyes. As is now being reported, there was a massive trend of sexual abuse here. Do you think you people think that should still be gonig on? Marrying 15 year old girls is not only wrong it's a felony. And as for "there wasn't enough evidence for such a wide-warrant" I'll point you to the fact that Warren Jeffs has already been convicted of accessory to rape, so I think they had plenty of proven evidence to go on when raiding this place.

Cold hard, proven-in-court fact is, this "sect" involved rape, physical abuse, and emotional abuse. These are proven facts. How this ranch was even allwoed t ooperate, and why it took them until now to raid it even with evidence from Jeffs' trial, is beyond me. It's shocking and appaling they would wait this long. How many more girls have been raped jsut since Jeffs was convicted? All of them could have been spared had they acted on it immediately. And what of the 16 year old girl who reported this? Hell she may be buried in a hole somewhere by now.



I'm just so excited that my hometown (San Angelo) is back in the news.

I think the last time we got this much broadcast news attention was when the manure pile at the stockyards caught fire and they had to evacuate all the neighborhoods around it.

Before that it was a Fickle Finger of Fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_&_Martin's_Laugh-In) award for having a lake that caught fire and burned.

You've got to admit though, that IS pretty damn funny.

[Sweetlebee]

The discussion here has made me investigate the LDS, FLDS Church, and polygamy even further. I watched the Frontline story "The Mormons" last night, which we had recorded a few months ago and never got around to seeing. In view of the history and beliefs of the church, it's very easy to explain how something like this could happen. The more wives you have, the higher version of heaven you achieve in death. Sad to say there's even a hierarchy in heaven!

I haven't been able to find an answer to why? Why are girls "spiritually" married at age 14, 15, and 16 years of age when it brings the scrutiny of law enforcement to their secretive community? Is it so they can start having children at the earliest age possible and therefore have the greatest number of children? Is it a status symbol for these old farts to have these young brides? Is it to keep young girls from falling in love naturally with someone their own age? Or is it really just about perverted sexual child abuse? It seems there has to be a strong incentive for doing something as repulsive to society as taking a 14 as your "new bride". Anybody have a better understanding of it?

[johnnysannie]

While I don't begin to understand the why of it myself, on the Latter Day Saints website there are several articles about polygamy (even though the LDS no longer practices or condones polygamy) in a historical context.

The best I could gather from this as to why it was ever done (and apparently was still done at the Yearning for Zion ranch was that founder Joseph Smith at some point decided that if Biblical patriarchs had multiple wives then they should be able to as well.

Link to this here:

http://www.mormon-polygamy.org/origins_mormon_polygamy.html

Even in the mid-1800's, the practice of polygamy was so repugnant to mainstream society that it led the Mormons to move from one place to another until they decided that Utah was far enough away that they might be let to live in peace with their multiple wives. And, of course, about 100 years, the LDS Church rejected polygamy. That, by the way, is historical fact, not speculation and easy to verify.

I don't think most of us will ever be able to understand why but I think the intervention was very necessary. The forced marriages of very young girls is just one of several taboo events that were happening at the Yearning for Zion ranch.

[cethklein]

And beleive it or not, the whole "Bible patriarchs had multiple wives" thing is also cited by a small group of Christian polygamists as well. They all apparently forgot that those incidents happened in the OLD Testament.

The reason FLDS has survived so long after LDS condemned polygamy is the same reason Scientology lasted so long, because they stayed OUT of the limelight, they stayed on the fringe.

After Jeffs was convicted it thrust their secrative cult into the spotlight, leading to all this. Just like how Tom Cruise moved Scientology out of the shadows and into mainstream view with his wacko antics.

The problem with FLDS, unlike Scientology, is their whole society is based on aVOIDING the outside world (Scientology only tells followers to avoid all who question Scientology, demonizing critics, or "SPs") FLDS went further and mandated that followers essentially avoid aNY contact with the outside world, whether critics or not. These people are not unlike aboriginal tribesmen, they've had no contact with the outside world. That's what will make the transition so hard. I have a lot of pity for them actually. It's going to be tough adjusting to the civilized world.

[Sarpedon]

As I understand it, Sweetlebee, is that there is no why, there's a why not for the rest of us.

I'm a man. I frequently fantasize about having multiple female partners. I think its fairly common.

But thats as far as it goes for most of us. Why? or should I say, Why not? Because most (american? western?) men these days have an idea that the best kind of relationship is that between equals. Thus though we may daydream about multiple, submissive female partners (or should I say, concubines) we don't actually *want* them. Even in the days when women were not equal to men politically, there was still a certain amount of respect for them, even in their subordinate roles.

People in these seriously misogynistic cults do not regard women as equals, and thus have no scruples about using force to satisfy the baser impulses that all men have. Mormonism, in its early form, was seriously misogynistic, and some say remains so today. (I don't know well enough to say) I know that originally, it was dogma in Mormonism that a woman could not be saved on her own, but only through her husband. This is a radical departure from even the most anti-women christian groups.

In such a group, it is natural to think of women as being like children, thus it is unlikely that they would respect or even acknowledge the difference between a sexually mature minor and an adult woman. To some extent, its true, the 18 year old cut off date is arbitrary, (but in my opinion, well justified and necessary) legal invention. To them, a female is mentally and morally inferior to a male, and require leadership from a man their entire lives. Thus the line between 'husband' and 'father' is blurry, and so is the line between 'girl' and 'woman.'

And as far as your question about why provoke the law, well to put it simply, they don't give a damn about the law. They believe they are obeying god's law. They believe that god will help them. They believe that they will triumph in the end. They believe that prayer and faith will prevail. You almost have to feel sorry for them.

[brittanimae]

Not to drift too far off topic here, but my understanding of the mainstream LDS church is that polygamy was primarily practiced in the early church to care and provide for women and children whose husbands and fathers were being rapidly killed off by persecution (the initial persecution had more to do with Joseph Smith and his teachings, the persecution for polygamy came later). A friend of mine was a researcher for the Frontline story.

I believe Utah was actually the first state that allowed women to vote. Also, the doctrine I'm aware of says that neither men or women can reached the highest degree of glory without being married--so it goes both ways.

[HeronW]

Forced marriages are illegal. Under the guise of 'religion' they are abhorrant and immoral.

Any man who's twice the age of his teen bride is as good as a pedophile. He will have total control of the home, the money, her access to the world. It is slavery.

Yes, there's teen girls proudly displaying their offsping and sucking up money from Welfare, AFDC, Medicare, and other tax-funded programs because they wanted sex, they wanted a baby and 'they are old enough to do what they want'.

However they are not intelligent enough or mature enough to have the funds by their own work to pay for their children's food, clothing, medical, houseing, schooling, etc. They are worse than ignorant--enough safe-sex information is on radio, tv, the web, on bulletins and posters, they are stupid and irresponsible. How far will these girls get saying, 'You want fries with that?'

This is an epidemic by stupid teen girls--but it is their choice.

[rugcat]

While I don't begin to understand the why of it myself, on the Latter Day Saints website there are several articles about polygamy (even though the LDS no longer practices or condones polygamy) in a historical context.For anyone interested in the beginnings of the LDS Church and the origins of its polygamous doctrine, I would highly recommend the late Fawn Brodie's biography of Joseph Smith, No Man Knows My History (http://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207767319&sr=1-1). Written over a half century ago, it remains today eminently readable and is still considered by many to be the definitive biography of Smith, although Mormons view it as anti-Mormon, biased and unreliable. (Shortly after writing the book, Brodie, who grew up Mormon, was excommunicated by the Church)

Brodie also wrote a biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Sir Richard Burton (The Devil Drives (http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Drives-Life-Richard-Burton/dp/0393301664/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207767672&sr=1-4)) -- adventurer, linguist, poet, swordsman, explorer -- one of the most fascinating characters of the Victorian era.

[Sweetlebee]

According to the Frontline story, Joseph Smith started having affairs first and then gave Biblical justification to it. He said that he had received the "okay" from God in a Revelation. His wife, however, wasn't so happy about giving him the okay, and actually did not follow Brigham Young into Utah after her husband's death, having split from that group.

I know in the 1800s women as young as 16, maybe even younger, married older successful men for financial security. So at the time of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, it wouldn't be uncommon to marry someone much younger.

But polygamy I understand. This goes beyond polygamy to child abuse. I just see no reason for the FLDs to go after children unless they are a community of child molesters, and that doesn't really sound reasonable to me. Why not wait until they are of legal age for marriage? So something else is driving the desire for child wives, but what?

I read that in Colorado City, which is a more open society than the Texas group, they started pulling female students out of the public schools at around age 13. Hmmm...why 13? Eventually Warren Jeffs declared that all FLDS would be home-schooled, which cut the public school population by 65% the following September. And the teachers too, since a good percentage were FLDS. And so is the police force, so you see why nothing is done at a local level. I'm sure there are 14 year old brides in that community too.

[johnnysannie]

Not to drift too far off topic here, but my understanding of the mainstream LDS church is that polygamy was primarily practiced in the early church to care and provide for women and children whose husbands and fathers were being rapidly killed off by persecution (the initial persecution had more to do with Joseph Smith and his teachings, the persecution for polygamy came later). A friend of mine was a researcher for the Frontline story.

I believe Utah was actually the first state that allowed women to vote. Also, the doctrine I'm aware of says that neither men or women can reached the highest degree of glory without being married--so it goes both ways.

Actually, Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote and it was ten years before Utah, Colorado, and Idaho did the same in 1900.

The link I posted is to the current LDS main church site so I would presume that the Mormons would themselves know when/where/why polygamy began.

Other factors in addition to an inate objection to polygamy (at least in Missouri where the Mormons planned to stay before the Mormon War in 1838-39) were the fact that the Mormons lived in large groups and had become actively aggressive.

[CACTUSWENDY]

Heard on the news a bit ago that it was not just one phone call from this girl. I guess there have been others. Does anyone have a link for this news?

[Sweetlebee]

While I don't begin to understand the why of it myself, on the Latter Day Saints website there are several articles about polygamy (even though the LDS no longer practices or condones polygamy) in a historical context.

The best I could gather from this as to why it was ever done (and apparently was still done at the Yearning for Zion ranch was that founder Joseph Smith at some point decided that if Biblical patriarchs had multiple wives then they should be able to as well.

Link to this here:

http://www.mormon-polygamy.org/origins_mormon_polygamy.html

Even in the mid-1800's, the practice of polygamy was so repugnant to mainstream society that it led the Mormons to move from one place to another until they decided that Utah was far enough away that they might be let to live in peace with their multiple wives. And, of course, about 100 years, the LDS Church rejected polygamy. That, by the way, is historical fact, not speculation and easy to verify.

I don't think most of us will ever be able to understand why but I think the intervention was very necessary. The forced marriages of very young girls is just one of several taboo events that were happening at the Yearning for Zion ranch.

Wasn't that nice of God to tell Joe he could have several wives so he wouldn't have to resort to having concubines? lol

[Robert Toy]

Heard on the news a bit ago that it was not just one phone call from this girl. I guess there have been others. Does anyone have a link for this news?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/09/texas.ranch/index.html

[Sweetlebee]

Heard on the news a bit ago that it was not just one phone call from this girl. I guess there have been others. Does anyone have a link for this news?

I read that she called them the end of March and then called back a day later crying and told them to forget everything she told them, that everything was peachy. The authorities first went last Thursday evening to the compound and asked to interview the girl and were refused. They returned with a search warrant the following day.

[blacbird]

Actually, Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote and it was ten years before Utah, Colorado, and Idaho did the same in 1900...

True. But there are a lot of Mormons in Wyoming, as well as Colorado and Idaho. I don't know if there's a connection between women's suffrage and the LDS in any of these states; would be interesting to find out.

caw

[sandyn]

http://www.yahoo.com/s/853428

[Sarpedon]

I hope no one thought I was implying that the mainstream LDS church is currently misogynistic. I thought I made it clear I was talking about the breakaway group and the original iteration.

I read that she called them the end of March and then called back a day later crying and told them to forget everything she told them, that everything was peachy. The authorities first went last Thursday evening to the compound and asked to interview the girl and were refused. They returned with a search warrant the following day.

I'm so glad that the authorities are smarter than criminals think they are.

[WildScribe]

As I understand it, Sweetlebee, is that there is no why, there's a why not for the rest of us.

I'm a man. I frequently fantasize about having multiple female partners. I think its fairly common.

But thats as far as it goes for most of us. Why? or should I say, Why not? Because most (american? western?) men these days have an idea that the best kind of relationship is that between equals. Thus though we may daydream about multiple, submissive female partners (or should I say, concubines) we don't actually *want* them. Even in the days when women were not equal to men politically, there was still a certain amount of respect for them, even in their subordinate roles.

People in these seriously misogynistic cults do not regard women as equals, and thus have no scruples about using force to satisfy the baser impulses that all men have. Mormonism, in its early form, was seriously misogynistic, and some say remains so today. (I don't know well enough to say) I know that originally, it was dogma in Mormonism that a woman could not be saved on her own, but only through her husband. This is a radical departure from even the most anti-women christian groups.

In such a group, it is natural to think of women as being like children, thus it is unlikely that they would respect or even acknowledge the difference between a sexually mature minor and an adult woman. To some extent, its true, the 18 year old cut off date is arbitrary, (but in my opinion, well justified and necessary) legal invention. To them, a female is mentally and morally inferior to a male, and require leadership from a man their entire lives. Thus the line between 'husband' and 'father' is blurry, and so is the line between 'girl' and 'woman.'

And as far as your question about why provoke the law, well to put it simply, they don't give a damn about the law. They believe they are obeying god's law. They believe that god will help them. They believe that they will triumph in the end. They believe that prayer and faith will prevail. You almost have to feel sorry for them.

GREAT post. And by the way, I am submissive in many senses and my husband and I are polyamorous (not polygamous - big difference), so even in this modern world, you CAN have things that way among consenting adults. I stand equal in many ways, and I am a strong and capable woman. Anyway...

Forced marriages are illegal. Under the guise of 'religion' they are abhorrant and immoral.

Any man who's twice the age of his teen bride is as good as a pedophile. He will have total control of the home, the money, her access to the world. It is slavery.

Yes, there's teen girls proudly displaying their offsping and sucking up money from Welfare, AFDC, Medicare, and other tax-funded programs because they wanted sex, they wanted a baby and 'they are old enough to do what they want'.

However they are not intelligent enough or mature enough to have the funds by their own work to pay for their children's food, clothing, medical, houseing, schooling, etc. They are worse than ignorant--enough safe-sex information is on radio, tv, the web, on bulletins and posters, they are stupid and irresponsible. How far will these girls get saying, 'You want fries with that?'

This is an epidemic by stupid teen girls--but it is their choice.

You got quite a bit off topic here. Your rant about stupid teens is interesting, sort of, but has nothing to do with girls who are raised in a cult and virtually enslaved.

[mscelina]

Forced marriages are illegal. Under the guise of 'religion' they are abhorrant and immoral.

Any man who's twice the age of his teen bride is as good as a pedophile. He will have total control of the home, the money, her access to the world. It is slavery.

Yes, there's teen girls proudly displaying their offsping and sucking up money from Welfare, AFDC, Medicare, and other tax-funded programs because they wanted sex, they wanted a baby and 'they are old enough to do what they want'.

However they are not intelligent enough or mature enough to have the funds by their own work to pay for their children's food, clothing, medical, houseing, schooling, etc. They are worse than ignorant--enough safe-sex information is on radio, tv, the web, on bulletins and posters, they are stupid and irresponsible. How far will these girls get saying, 'You want fries with that?'

This is an epidemic by stupid teen girls--but it is their choice.

I agree completely, WildScribe. This post went beyond the boundaries of the OP and degenerated into a diatribe that is hyperbolic at the least and downright misogynistic at the worst.

[Tirjasdyn]

Conversely, if a sixty-year-old woman marries a man in his twenties, and gives birth to a child, she’s admired for her ability to retain her youth and her sexuality. You go girl! Some might think it’s cute, but I personally find both situations revolting.



Sorry but if you find a woman in her 60's giving birth give me her name and address so I can get her to let me write her memoir so I can make a bundle.

[Gary]

Sorry but if you find a woman in her 60's giving birth give me her name and address so I can get her to let me write her memoir so I can make a bundle.

Here are some names, but I don't have their addresses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50

[cethklein]

Not to drift too far off topic here, but my understanding of the mainstream LDS church is that polygamy was primarily practiced in the early church to care and provide for women and children whose husbands and fathers were being rapidly killed off by persecution (the initial persecution had more to do with Joseph Smith and his teachings, the persecution for polygamy came later). A friend of mine was a researcher for the Frontline story.

I believe Utah was actually the first state that allowed women to vote. Also, the doctrine I'm aware of says that neither men or women can reached the highest degree of glory without being married--so it goes both ways.

Yes that is what they teach, that it was "to care for women" although the honesty of that is very debatable. Remember, Brigham Young wanted Utah to be it's own nation. In fact he almost went to war with the US (there were battles actually). Most of the persecution against him was brought on by himself. And not because of his religious beliefs entirely.

[blacbird]

Yes that is what thy teach, that it was "to care for women" although the honesty of that is very debatable. Remember, Joseph Smith wanted Utah to be it's own nation. In fact he almost went to war with the US (there were battles actually). Most of the persecution against him was brought on by himself. And not because of his religious beliefs entirely.

Smith never got anywhere near Utah. He was killed in a riot in Nauvoo, Illinois as the Saints made their way westward. Smith was in many ways a rather ineffectual odd duck as a leader of such a passionate movement as the Latter-Day Saints. He was succeeded by the fearsome Brigham Young, who was anything but a peacenik, and who took the flock to Salt Lake, established the Temple and the state of Utah, and indeed did provoke a confrontation with the Feds, before backing down in the face of serious threat by the Army. That was also the point at which he had a vision and was told that polygamy was no longer to be accepted by the Church, thus paving the way for acceptance of Utah statehood by the Federal Government.

caw

[Sweetlebee]

Yes that is what thy teach, that it was "to care for women" although the honesty of that is very debatable. Remember, Brigham Young wanted Utah to be it's own nation. In fact he almost went to war with the US (there were battles actually). Most of the persecution against him was brought on by himself. And not because of his religious beliefs entirely.

So to help, an orphaned girl of age 14 was taken as wife instead of as daughter? Maybe it has always been about adult men wanting young girls in their beds.

[Sweetlebee]

Smith never got anywhere near Utah. He was killed in a riot in Nauvoo, Illinois as the Saints made their way westward. Smith was in many ways a rather ineffectual odd duck as a leader of such a passionate movement as the Latter-Day Saints. He was succeeded by the fearsome Brigham Young, who was anything but a peacenik, and who took the flock to Salt Lake, established the Temple and the state of Utah, and indeed did provoke a confrontation with the Feds, before backing down in the face of serious threat by the Army. That was also the point at which he had a vision and was told that polygamy was no longer to be accepted by the Church, thus paving the way for acceptance of Utah statehood by the Federal Government.

caw

Smith was arrested after destroying the town newspaper offices for printing against his wishes for polygamy. He preached to his followers that they must follow his polygamist ways in order to attain that higher level of heaven. Some fellow Mormons were repulsed, including the owners of the town newspaper.

Young denounced polygamy after Utah was denied statehood and Mormons the right to vote. Everything comes in revelations directly from God, so as the need arises to change the word of God, it seems they'd go have a little conversation and return with a new Revelation. Then Utah became a state.

[Sonneillon]

You got quite a bit off topic here. Your rant about stupid teens is interesting, sort of, but has nothing to do with girls who are raised in a cult and virtually enslaved.

I could be wrong, but the way I read this post was in response to earlier posts which questioned why child brides engendered so much more outrage than sexually active teenagers. I thought the poster was attempting to address that issue and place the emphasis not on the age of the girls and the sex, but on the issue of free choice.

But as I said, I could be wrong, that's just how I read it.

[cethklein]

Smith never got anywhere near Utah. He was killed in a riot in Nauvoo, Illinois as the Saints made their way westward. Smith was in many ways a rather ineffectual odd duck as a leader of such a passionate movement as the Latter-Day Saints. He was succeeded by the fearsome Brigham Young, who was anything but a peacenik, and who took the flock to Salt Lake, established the Temple and the state of Utah, and indeed did provoke a confrontation with the Feds, before backing down in the face of serious threat by the Army. That was also the point at which he had a vision and was told that polygamy was no longer to be accepted by the Church, thus paving the way for acceptance of Utah statehood by the Federal Government.

caw

Yeah I realized that, I was referring to Brigham Young, I noticed it soon after posting it and changed it :P

[cethklein]

So to help, an orphaned girl of age 14 was taken as wife instead of as daughter? Maybe it has always been about adult men wanting young girls in their beds.

Well I'm not so sure about that. Yes I think it was always Young's intention to marry off girls at a very young age. He CLAIMED it was for their own good. The man was pretty disturbed.

Note: While I believe both Mormon "founders" were likely not very scrupulous people, I don't hold it against modern Mormons, i think most of them are genuinely good people. Whether Mormonism is a legitimate faith I suppose is in the eye of the beholder. And while it was founded by shady characters, I think most modern practitioners have little if any connection to either of them other than being taught they were "prophets" (which is debatable at best). But that's what they believe in so, so be it. 99.99999% of Mormons abhor polygamy I think and would never have anything to do with it.

It is ironic that these two men ended up founding a faith that seemingly has evolved into a "normal" religion even if it wasn't in their day and age. I'm not a Mormon but I've studied their history to a degree but am by no means an expert, but I think most modern Mormons are as different from the founders as night and day.

[Queen of Swords]

I recommend Orson Scott Card's novel Saints, written from the point of view of a fictitious Mormon convert who goes on to marry Joseph Smith. Card does his best to emphasize what he finds good about polygamy - the affection between "sister wives", the fact that the husband shares a different but equal kind of love with each wife, and so on - and he does a damn good job of it. But some of the problems inherent in the system still shone through for me (for instance, if a man has seven wives, technically each wife only gets him once a week, and that doesn't seem fair - he gets someone to snuggle up to every night, while the other wives have to lie alone in bed consoling themselves with their calendars).

Anyway, it's a great book, and since I recommend Escape, I'll recommend this as well. The difference? One is non-fiction.

[sandyn]

Most of my experience with Mormons came about as a result of a friend of mine who became Mormon in Cincinnati and invited me to her home to talk to a missonary. I found it interesting and what he said sounded good. I was at a point where I was searching. Then I attended a 'fast and testimony' service at my friend's church, where entirely too much was said about Joseph Smith and not enough about Jesus or God or any higher power.

I was also given a Book of Mormon and asked to take it home and read it. But before I was to read it, I was to pray and ask to be shown the truth. I couldn't get off the first page.

Now, that is not to say I don't think Mormons are good people. Most of those I've encountered are very good people and I commend many of their ideas, i.e. caring for church members in time of need.

It just wasn't for me.

But the Jeffs/Barlow cult? To me that's what that bunch is...a cult through and through. IMHO they're bunch of old/older men who prey on and brainwash young girls so they can get their jollies and breed them so they can have more little girls to prey on and brainwash.

Queen of Swords...I guess it's all a man's world, eh?

[dgiharris]

...But the Jeffs/Barlow cult? To me that's what that bunch is...a cult through and through. IMHO they're bunch of old/older men who prey on and brainwash young girls so they can get their jollies and breed them so they can have more little girls to prey on and brainwash...

I think the sexual aspect of the cult is important, but I do not think it is the most important driver for these cults.

I think the main driver is the "Ordained by God" theme. They feel that they are doing God's work, are on a special mission from God, are the chosen ones, etc. etc.

I think in any religious setting, once you equate your will and desire to "God's" then all bets are off and let the craziness begin.

The worst evils in the world are committed by people who believe they are doing what god is telling them.

As for these cults, my belief is that is what occurs. If god is telling them to do this, then how could they be wrong?

The having sex with teenage girls is an interesting bonus to all this madness, but it is not the primary driver. IMO

Mel...

[William Haskins]

claiming to be subjugated by god has historically made for brilliant cover for man to subjugate both man and woman.

"dad said i'm in charge."

[Bravo]

if only romney was still running.

[Autodidact]

I just want to say how refreshingly intelligent and multi-faceted I found this discussion.

[blacbird]

I just want to say how refreshingly intelligent and multi-faceted I found this discussion.

"I have many faucets."

-- Tommy Smothers.

caw

[blacbird]

A whole bunch of new news is being released tonight about the FLDS group in Texas and elsewhere, none of it flattering.

Julie? You there, Julie? Hello, Julie?

Probably pretty late in Martinique.

caw

[clintl]

Bottom line for me:

1) It is unacceptable to me that anyone of any age or any gender be forced to marry and have sex against their will. I find this practice to be indistinguishable from rape.

2) Children are being abused in nonsexual ways.

Together, there is ample justification for getting the women and kids out of the clutches of this cult.

[brittanimae]

Just wanted to pop in and say that it appears that there was adequate probable cause for the investigation, although I hadn't heard reports of that earlier on. The conditions sound quite deplorable.

I must add, however, that I remain scandalized that such a huge deal is being made over these white women and children when poverty-stricken black neighborhoods rampant with abuse in our inner-cities seldom see such action taken on their behalf. I would hope that in some way this situation could raise awareness there as well, but I doubt it will. Just as the Elizabeth Smart case did little to bring to light the hundreds of missing children from urban neighborhoods. But that's probably a subject for another thread.

[blacbird]

I must add, however, that I remain scandalized that such a huge deal is being made over these white women and children when poverty-stricken black neighborhoods rampant with abuse in our inner-cities seldom see such action taken on their behalf.

The vast majority of the 912 people who were murdered/committed suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, 1979, were black. A white congressman had traveled down there to investigate complaints not much different from those which have prompted the Texas raid. He was murdered for his effort, on orders of a maniac, who happened also to be a white man.

The problem with inner-city abuse is like the problem with Roman Catholic priestly abuse: it occurs on an individual basis, in secret, and is hard to document and ferret out. This particular situation is massive and blatant and impossible not to see (except for a few people here, apparently). That's not to excuse the abuse happening in inner-city situations within ethnic minority populations. In fact, it's possible that this crackdown might elevate sensitivity toward other problems elsewhere.

I'm still disturbed at how much resistance got expressed in this particular thread to what action authorities took in this incident.

caw

[Soccer Mom]

I must add, however, that I remain scandalized that such a huge deal is being made over these white women and children when poverty-stricken black neighborhoods rampant with abuse in our inner-cities seldom see such action taken on their behalf. I would hope that in some way this situation could raise awareness there as well, but I doubt it will. Just as the Elizabeth Smart case did little to bring to light the hundreds of missing children from urban neighborhoods. But that's probably a subject for another thread.

I don't think the two subjects: an isolated cult that promotes pedephilia and inner-city violence in poor neighborhoods, have anything to do with one another.

It isn't just apples to oranges; it's apples to army boots.

[clintl]

On the other hand, I think she has a good point that the news media covers tragedies involving minorities differently than it covers those involving whites. How often do certain cable news networks obsess for months (or even years) over missing or murdered black and Hispanic women?

[Soccer Mom]

The question of why the media doesn't cover inner-city violence is a valid one. They don't.

I just don't think it applies as to why this got so much attention. 14 yo girls married to 50 yo men and 400 children removed from a compound is pretty dramatic stuff. Of course something like this would be covered.

[mscelina]

Besides, we don't KNOW how much abuse takes place in reality. We learn of the cases that went wrong, the abusive situation before a child got murdered, the wife who shows up at the emergency room with choke prints around her neck, or the husband who's been tasered to idiocy. (just trying not to omit male domestic abuse--hate to get blasted for being a man-hater). We--the authorities--the media do not know about ANY sort of abuse in the home unless (a) the victim calls for help (b) the victim is hospitalized (c) the victim is killed or (d) the victim is a celebrity who writes a tell-all twenty years later.

And, in the end, this topic isn't even remotely related to the raid in Texas. The fact that these women are presumed to be white makes absolutely no difference to the fact that this organization has actively promoted and supported the systemic abuse and subjugation of the minors who were present. Period.