Needless to say, this was first posted on the Critiques Forum without drawing any response, but I'm posting it here because I think that a comparison of the original and its revision offers a clear example of the differences between the Petrarchan and Shakespearean Sonnet forms, and thus can, hopefully be valuable as a "Teaching" tool.
A while back, I posted a Poem called "Teardrops" which was originally written in 1961 and had been relegated to my "Reject" files since that period until I reevaluted it and brought it up to date with a few revisions.
Here is another similar Poem from the same period, but the revisions required were far more extensive and retained only the theme, the prime images and the tone of the original, and changed the form from that of a "Petrarchan" Sonnet to a "Shakespearean" Sonnet, (although the slightly irregular lines made necessary by use of substitute feet might be criticised by those who count syllables).
********
The Epochs, (Original)
Immortal epochs passed before our age,
Their quiet steady march our eyes still see
In strong new lands, built up by people free,
That grew on visions seen on history's page.
Our future pictures, we can only gage.
By piecing it from parts of history,
And guessing what the next epoch will be.
The past is future's most important sage.
From man's first acts, grown old with passing years,
Until the present time when we look back,
And see the past and wish the future known
That in knowledge we suppress our fears,
In seeing what to do and where we lack,
We start the next great Epoch of our own.
Copyright © Spring 1961 James R. Hoye
The Epochs
Immortal Epochs passed before our age,
Have made their mark throughout all History
In strong new lands, and mighty dynasties
Grown to legends seen on life's grand page.
What's yet to come can often best be gaged
By weighing trends we see in days of old
For when we search for what the next Epoch will hold
The past is future's most important sage.
From man's first acts, grown old with passing years,
Until the present time when we look back,
We analyze our past and weigh the facts
That we might face the future without fears,
By learning from mistakes that we've been shown
We start the next great Epoch of our own.
Copyright © 25 Mar 2008 James R. Hoye
*******
The resulting revision is not perfect as the subject remains "Cliched" and the logic employed is somewhat circular. None-the-less, I think it now makes an acceptable and more easily understandable Sonnet, and shows that the divisions of the Petrarchan form are best suited to an "argument/counter-argument" or "problem/solution" approach while the Shakesperian form is more suited to an "argument/argument/argument/conclusion structure", which, as it turned out I feel was more appropriate to this poem.
Judge for yourself.
Jim Hoye, (JRH)
I don't like either of the sonnets, so I will have to say we need more examples:
Sonnet 130
by William Shakespeare
My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damask'd, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare.
Here we see the Shakespeare version, the initial argument comparing her to aspired features, the second quatrain comparing to things that he has seen, smelled, and heard. The 3rd quatrain breaks again, and heads towards a different direction: he begins to praise her, saying he loves to hear her speak, though he acknowledges it isn't the perfect sound, and music is far more pleasing to listen to. The last two lines of the third quatrain compare her to a divine image, which, Shakespeare is arguing, is unattainable by women, it being reserved for the immortals.
Then something strange happens in the couplet. He tells us, not that he likes her anyway, but that everyone else is the exact same way. We are met initially by shock, but then the couplet essentially says, "All you other poets are liars. I alone tell the truth about love." The ending couplet is one of the most profound passages in all of Shakespeare, showing his in depth perception of reality and make believe, and his brilliant down-to-earthness of the concepts of beauty, love, and flattery. It also serves as a response to such Carpe Diem poems by his contemporaries, who relied on flattery as the key to convincing women of their love, and subsequently convincing them to sleep with them.
Later on in history, we are met by this however:
Leda and the Swan by William Butler Yeats
A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.
How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?
A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
.....................Being so caught up,
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?
Here we are met with a varying form both original forms. The beginning opens in Shakespearean form. The first quatrain detailing the actually swooping down and taking of Leda by Zeus. This is being used by Yeats to detail the beginning of literature, and the beginning of civilization. The corruption of civilization at the very beginnings. Further, it continues to begin, in the second quatrain, to explain the personal experience. He begins to try to understand what humans caught up in the world are feeling.
The sestet shifts now to the outcome. The imagery here describing the destruction at Troy, as seen at the beginning of literature in the works of Homer and his contemporaries. The second reference, Agamemnon dead, referring to Aeschylus, and the birth of tragedy, and of theater. The indentation and extra syllable meant to create a shape of a lightning bolt in the structure of the poem. The final 3 lines, alluding to, essentially, "did human kind know what was going to happen, before this creator decided to abandon it to its fate." The ending profound, and in the Petrarchan structure, showing a complete turn from the original octave, and bringing about a complete about face to leave the audience with, rather than an answer, a rhetorical question, one which lacks an answer.
By John Donne.
DEATH be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee,
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.
Here, in Donne's Holy Sonnet, we are met with the Petrarchan form. I will go less in depth with this one, but I will just point out a few things. The central argument is maintained within it. The first line is alluded to in every other line, essentially explaining the idea. The octave deals with what death is, yet the sestet deals with what he isn't, and what he cannot do, and cannot best, and why he shouldn't be proud. The clear distinction is argument, counter-argument backed up by proof on both sides, yet a central argument running through the whole piece. This is both affective, since unlike the Shakespearean form, there is only one argument, and one conclusion. It is less of a musing and more of an argument. It presents argument and conclusion, bringing about a definite perception of his view on death. Shakespeare, on the other hand, brought about his view on a subject less related to the first octave. The central themes are not established really until the last 2 lines, whereas here they are formed in the first lines.
All these forms are affective, yet modern forms even vary from this. The couplet is an excellent closure to a general musing, yet the sestet of a Petrarchan is a great ending to an argument. Shakespearean sonnets (or at least the ones written by the Bard) can end in a completely different direction where they begin, whereas a Petrarchan sonnet has a set plan, and ends in the same direction it begins in. Modern sonnets can take any form.
Norman D Gutter
03-27-2008, 11:04 PM
Jim:
The reason I didn't comment on these in the critique forum was twofold. First, just the busy-ness of life, which is killing me physically and emotionally now. Second, I don't believe either of these is Shakespearean. The first has the following rhyme scheme and stanza pattern:
abba abba cdecde
This is clearly Petrarchan. The second is:
abba acca deed ff
This is not Shakespearean (which is abab cdcd efef gg); nor is it Spenserian. It's closer to Petrarchan, with a bit more variation in the rhymes.
Not knowing how to bring that up, wondering where you might be coming from in claiming the second as Shakespearean, and not wanting to get in a fight over it, I declined to comming in Critiquing Poems, and actually didn't take time to evaluate them fully. Oh, well, you ask for comment, so I do so now. C'est la vie.
...Here is another similar Poem from the same period, but the revisions required were far more extensive and retained only the theme, the prime images and the tone of the original, and changed the form from that of a "Petrarchan" Sonnet to a "Shakespearean" Sonnet, (although the slightly irregular lines made necessary by use of substitute feet might be criticised by those who count syllables)....
The meter did not seem too bad. One line was a bit off, though not so bad as to be off-putting, and certainly within allowances from the Elizabethan era and beyond.
As to syllable counting, it is at best a surrogate method to scansion. However, for the beginner poet who is struggling with meter, and who has trouble gauging the stresses in normal speech and hence in metrical verse, counting syllables might be an acceptable starting point in their poetic development. Later--hopefully not too much later--they will graduate from syllables to metrical feet. For the new poet who grasps meter quickly, scansion with metrical feet is the way to start evaluating meter. I was fortunate in that meter came easily for me, as did scansion. Others, I realize, struggle mightily with it.
Best Regards,
NDG
Guess I should have left well enough alone and simply been satisfied with revising the original and not trying to identify the forms. I guess it's been so long since I've worked with them, that I mixed up the rhyme schemes although I would say the revision is a sonnet, just not a recognized form.
Thanks to both of you for straightening me out and to JBI for the excellent examples and analysis you provided.
Write On,
Jim Hoye, (JRH)
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