Becoming a Better Poet

[poetinahat]

What are your goals as a poet? Do you just like writing, or do you have an objective? Are you happy with how you write? Do you ever revise?

I ask because I've decided that everything I've written to date -- everything -- needs revision, or at least a review.

I'm happy with that, because it's no longer enough for me to have written a poem. I want my poems to be as well-written as I can make them. If they're not worth saving, I'll hide them and keep them as compost for other poems.

As you may notice, I've been pretty quiet lately. There are a couple of reasons:
1) I lost heart - didn't feel like writing
2) I didn't feel like I was giving adequate attention to critiques, and I wasn't helping anyone

I'm reading a couple of books that are helping. They're inspiring and enabling me to be a better poet and critic, and I think the two roles are irrevocably fused.

--------------

The first book:
- A Poetry Home Repair Manual*, by Ted Kooser
This book is useful and insightful, and it is, happily, an easy delight to read. Kooser enables the reader to look at what he sees as the significant aspects of poetry, and he makes his points very clearly. He enables the reader to identify with him. The language is unpretentious, but beautiful at the same time; even his prose has a poetic aspect. That, as much as anything, shows me what Kooser thinks about the importance of the right words in the right order.

Furthermore, he deals not only with writing and reading poetry; he addresses the prospect of publishing poems (he cites an annually published list of publishers and periodicals, and discusses strategies), and the notion of writing poetry for a living (which he dismisses realistically).

My only reservation about the book is not a fault, but an observation. It doesn't deal much with formal poetry -- in that sense, there's a bit of a sameness to the examples he uses, although they are all excellent and always appropriate to the topic. I get the feeling that he favors a certain style and period of poetry, which we often do, whether or not we mean to. In fairness, he says at the outset that he doesn't address structured forms, and he recommends other books that do so.

Overall, A Poetry Home Repair Manual is a splendid introduction to poetry for people who are, or would be, poets. I'm keeping it on hand, and I'll reread it as I revise.

*: Amusing anecdote: When my wife first saw the book, she furrowed her brow and asked, "What's that about?" After some discussion, it emerged that she thought it was a DIY manual written in verse. Since then, I've determined to write "An Ode to Dovetail Joints" and "Pair o' Dice Lost (in an S-Bend)".

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The second book:
- Eighty Great Poems, from Chaucer to Now, by Geoff Page

I'm only eight poems into this volume, but it's eminently absorbing. Page, an Australian poet and professor, lists and discusses eighty poems from throughout history. He doesn't claim that these poems are The Greatest, but that they all are Great, and that they're worthy of consideration. He discusses, with vast knowledge, insight, and good humour, what it is about each poem that makes it both great and memorable: why it is, for example, that it's still remembered after centuries. He's good at putting the poems in their original context, discussing what the poets might have been thinking, and exposing how their various techniques (use of form, or deliberate deviations from form) are effective.

This book has been eminently illuminating to me so far. It encourages me to reread my poems and hold them to the same standard that I would hold poems by any master.

---------

Both of these books have encouraged me to give much more serious thought not just to my own poems, but to yours as I read them.

But, as Mr Kooser would remind me, it's not enough to read about how to write poems, or how to read them. The writing is necessary. Even if it's bad.

With that in mind, I'm reintroducing myself to the forum, and wishing you all well with your poetry.

[Cassiopeia]

My Dear Friend,

You have always been an inspiration to me. I am glad you are feeling better and if there is anything I can do to be a better part of the community, please let me know.

Of course I will continue stalking you as per our agreement. ;)

[Perks]

If I could manage (and I've done well recently - but only just very) to be a little more disciplined in general, I want very much to include more poetry in my reading and writing. I think I need to broaden the foundation of what I know.

I do revise, but not much. Sometimes it takes a little guidance from the experts here. I've very much appreciated what I've learned from the AW poets.

It would be nice to think of myself as a poet sometimes, which is weird. I've come a long way from what I thought I was.

[Appalachian Writer]

Nice to hear from you. What are my goals in poetry? I want to move people, to let them see through my eyes, hear with my ears, and all that rot. I was taking a poetry writing class with my good friend Louis Gallo (fine poet, check him out). I read a poem I'd written about my daughter's death, trying very hard not to get emotional. My needed focus kept me from noticing the silence in the room, but soon, I realized you could hear a feather drop. When I lifted my head from the page, I saw my emotions reflected in the faces of others, and in some cases, those other faces were crying, weeping for my child, a child they'd never known. I became addicted, addicted to the idea that the right turn of phrase, the perfect metaphor could make a difference.

[KTC]

I'm so glad that you found your way back, Rob. You are a light here... a valuable presence. I'm glad that you are finding what you need to take the next step in your journey.

You know how I would answer all of the questions in the beginning of your post. I have no goals. I just like to jot down parts of the journey. My goal is to get to the end...that's all we can do. I like to write poetry along the way. Mine is all compost... but not for other poems. They are route markers.

I'm glad that you are discovering the importance of the rewrite and the polish. I think a true poet, like yourself, can do well to tinker with the poem. Your intellectual understanding of poetry always amazes me. I can feel your 'next-levelness' in your post. I don't think you were lost, as you say. I think you were finding your way. These are two very different positions to be in. I hope you enjoy the ride. I look forward to seeing your next offerings.

[temerity]

Missed you here, Poet! :)

Thanks for the book recommendations, and good luck with the new goals.

Uh, writing...about that. Since coming to a revelation--that everything I've written so far is so far below where I'd like to be--I haven't been able to write anything cohesive. Just a few sentences here and there.

I'd really like to work on creating something centered on things that tie together for a common theme, but it feels like I have about a hundred strings I need to weave into one thing--focuses on subject, wordplay, flow, metaphor, realism--and it's a little overwhelming! I'm tempted to put down the pen and curl away for about five years until I read enough poetry that some magic spark ignites and I can say "I get it!".

I don't think that's going to work--but until I get up the nerve to write again I think I'll be strictly critting until further notice!

[poetinahat]

Perks:
Indeed, you are, even if you don't always like to claim the title. (Kooser mentions that he's wary of online forums, because anyone on there could be a nutjob. Just so you know. I'd estimate our proportion at around 12%.)

App Writer:
Wonderful story. In book #1 above, Kooser discusses the idea that some poets claim to write 'just for themselves' -- which he dismisses. I think it's a semantic issue -- some people may say that when they mean "I have no intention to publish" -- but very, very few of us wouldn't like to receive the same sort of feedback you describe. (And I think I've seen your friend's name very recently; I'm going to go back and check.)

Kevin:
I started this thread with a particular hope that you'd chime in. You and I, we don't do things the same, and vive la différence.

I recall that aspier views poems as 'happenings', and that they are born when they're written -- that revision is either superfluous or defeats the purpose. I was watching a TV show this weekend about a time when Van Gogh and Gauguin shared a house in Arles. They disagreed violently on how painting should be done -- in the show, Gauguin was contemplative and thought out his paintings, while Van Gogh worked feverishly to get what he felt right then onto the canvas -- but both had their merits. And both were brilliant.

[poetinahat]

temerity -- Can I reiterate one of my points above? In Book #1 above, Kooser emphasises that writing -- any writing -- is helpful. It's all at least practice. This is something KTC knows and practices.

You already blow us away with your writing. If it's below where you'd want it to be, then that's great -- you aim higher. That's not a knock on what you're doing right now. We're all, ideally, getting better.

I understand being intimidated by one's own ambitious goals; I've got a couple of concepts I'd like to chase, but I feel ill-equipped to do so. But that just means that a year or two has passed, and I'm no closer. It's time I started, so I either get somewhere, or I fail and get an idea of what not to do.

[JRH]

Hi Poet,

It sounds like you have started and are continuing to learn the lessons necessary to becoming a "quality' Poet as opposed to someone who is merely content with writing "Verse" for their own pleasure, and that's a good thing.

The need for "Revision' is up to the individual but, I can say, that I personally go back to ALL my works, review them, and revise them if I see a way they can be improved, and that I do that regardless of the amount of time that has passed.

In fact, in the past year, I have resurrected at least 6 Poems that were over 45 years old and relegated to my "Reject" file, and found, that with a few revisions, they could be made relevant and convey both meaning and craftsmanship, even if they will never be considered among my best works.

As for the books, you mention, the Kooser book has a good reputation, although I tend to rely on and still use Sound and Sense, An Introduction to Poetry", which was my first text book in Creative Writing back in the early 60s and which is now in it's twelfth edition. (The hardback is fairly pricey, but older softback editions are available through several online sources at reasonable prices).

The "Page" Anthology sounds like a winner, but any good Anthology, particularly any of those edited by Oscar Williams, are likely to be helpful because READING those Poets who have been SUCCESSFUL, particularly with a critical eye, is the MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do, (outside of writing yourself and constantly evaluating what you write.)

I'll be looking forward to seeing what you produce as you progress.

Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[kdnxdr]

PNHT,

you have been sorely missed!

So glad to see you again. You've always been a great help to me and I've much appreciated each and every ounce of feedback you've given.

I think those seasons of "agony" are part and parcel of what we do as writers. We're always "tweaking" the world around us or ourselves or both.

I compose alot online and afterwards I copy and paste what I've written with the critiques I receive. As I reread my poems, I tinker with them. I'm not to the point of doing much more than that but I am in process of getting myself psyched up to do a chapbook.

kid

[ddgryphon]

This is great news Rob, as your presence has been sorely missed by many of us here. I'm so glad you've found a lighthouse to guide you back to our shores.

I think you know I believe in revision for all kinds of things that you pray to make second nature in your writing music, rhythm, assonance. . .you can get to a point where these are strong, but almost anything can suffer minor revision--sometimes it breaks things and you go back, but experimentation is a part of my process at least it has been.

Unfortunately, I've felt creatively empty for a while now--allowing prompts such as images and challenges to "spur" my poor muse to action. I've been quite absent in critiques too. It is almost as if I've lost my own trust. Perhaps I should look for your books, they sound like just the TNT I may need to blast free from my prison.

So, glad to hear you are roaring back in a renewed and vigorous poet again.

[LimeyDawg]

Rob,
Great that you're back. I think the forum has had all of me it can stand so I cannot imagine that your presence won't right the ship. Kooser is a great read for anybody, really. I'd also suggest adding Steve Kowit's In the Palm of your Hand to your library. It's much like Kooser, but offers the reader a task at the end of each chapter aimed at improving poetry once the end has been reached. Good stuff.

Revision, revision...I can't imagine not doing revision, but it's a personal choice. In my novels and poetry, I try to write as close to the finished product as I can on the first run through, that way the revision is less of a chore. Still, there's nothing I've posted that hasn't been through several iterations in search of better music, tighter metrics and such. I think it's also quite evident, most times, when somebody posts something after the first draft.

[Priene]

What are your goals as a poet? Do you just like writing, or do you have an objective? Are you happy with how you write? Do you ever revise?


I don't write much poetry right now, but when I do, I doubt if even twenty per cent of the lines in a first draft makes it to the fifth or eighth or tenth revision. I've always thought that poetry is revision.


I ask because I've decided that everything I've written to date -- everything -- needs revision, or at least a review.


To my mind, this is a good sign. If you think everything needs revising, it means you're spotting things you hadn't noticed before. You're a better poet now than you were when you wrote them.

[Shweta]

I missed you too, poet!

*sidles in*
I have a poetry goal! It is, if poetry keeps happening to me, I should maybe figure out better what it is, and have a better sense of it, and have some intellectual/critical understanding of it, instead of constantly looking bewildered and going "but i'm not a poet". :flag:

So I'm going to actually come hang out in here and gather knowledge from all your shining beacons.
Yeah.

[JBI]

Hmm for me my growth as a poet is determined by what I read. Now I am generally looking for unconventional sources to draw on, instead of classical ones, and am looking back for stylistic guidance.

Good to here you are back, but I am skeptical about the books you bought to help you improve as a poet. Personally I don't really think much of Kooser as a poet, and the great 80 poems perhaps isn't what you should look into. I would think that the best way (as I have found) to mature is to read more, and read on what relates to you, then try to take something from that, and rework it in your own "improved" way, and thereby create something that goes beyond what has already been done.

[KTC]

But then again, we each learn in our own different ways. What will work for one won't work for another. I find that the things I need come into my life when I need them. Maybe this is why those 2 books came into Rob's life? They spoke to him NOW.

[poetinahat]

Thanks for the comments, JBI.

I accept, but don't agree with, your dismissal of the books. First, whether you like Kooser's poetry or not, he's a Poet Laureate emeritus, so he must know something of it. Second, even if one disagrees with someone on a topic, one can't do so with any real grounds without knowing what they have to say about it.

Third, why is reading one person's discussion of eighty poems not a good thing to do? If all one ever does is read poems that "relate to oneself" (and how does one know without reading them?), then one would develop a pretty narrow understanding of the world. I'm finding, for example, that there's a reason (at least in the author's considered and well-researched opinion) that certain poems are still widely read after a number of centuries. Gaining an appreciation for these poems, and the poets' techniques and insights, is enlightening.

That's the only real reservation I had with Kooser's book: all the examples he uses are very recent. Page's book is an excellent counterpoint in that regard: it discusses a selection poems, both in technical and in more subjective terms, that spans history.

Finally, I definitely do agree with you that reading, and reading a lot, is essential to one's development. It's part of what's bringing me back to the fold here; reading more has rekindled my desire to write and to discuss.

[JBI]

I didn't say not to read other works, I just said look at specifics to grow at writing about specifics. If I read a poem about something unfamiliar to me there is no room for me to grow by building off the themes of that poem, whereas if I read a poem that echoes my own feelings, there is a mutual connection, and therefore a new growth of insight. I would need to leaf through the collection to accurately judge it, of course, but I am saying that in order to grow better 80 poems spanning a large amount of time and theme aren't really going to help much. You are better off looking at someone of the same, or close to the same movement, or looking at a poet who shares your views.

Poetry is very specific, and therefore needs to built on the specific. As they say, Yeats didn't just like faeries, he knew the philosophy of faeries. I think that is why so many poets draw on the Greco-Roman allusions; it works as common groundwork for Western society. Either way though, if lets say there are 10 major themes covered in 80 poems, that provides about 8 poems centralized around one theme. It's a start, but not nearly enough.

[P.H.Delarran]

I think the important thing here is that you made a determination about your work and set about figuring out how to meet your goals.
My issue with my own writing is determining what goals I have, if any. I'm venturing a bit away from poetry, not from lack of interest, but more because I think I was using it for an instant creative fix instead of seriously putting myself into my work with any discipline. I found a great dissatisfaction in my poetry, but lacked the skill to raise the quality. It started to feel like a big waste of time. So, I've taken a little break from poetry, tho' I do write a bit on the fly. I do hope to return to it one day. I still try to read some poetry everyday, to keep the spark alive, and to learn. I think I can learn even from the not so good stuff, and certainly the time tested stuff holds value, even if I can't relate to the topic, there's still something to learn.
Meantime, I've become interested again in writing short fiction, so I have been reading as much of that as I can.
I don't mind writing just for fun, but I'd don't have eons of time to waste, and would like to put out a bit of quality as well.

[Norman D Gutter]

Rob:

Welcome back, missed man! Nothing like good reading to get the writing juices flowing.

What are my goals as a poet? No one will believe it, but, I want to be as good as Robert Frost. Yeah, I know, I know, AGH*, but hey, better to shoot at a star and miss than at a toad in the road and hit it. I'm in the seventh year of my poetry development decade; not that I'll quit developing after that, but when I started writing serious poetry as an adult, I gave myself a decade to really dig into the nuts and bolts of poetry and learn as much as I could, jump-starting what I missed in my self-imposed 30 year exile from poetry reading and writing.

As for revising, I do so extensively. But some writing and revising take place long before words see paper, in my gray cells. An idea will come to me, maybe a title, maybe a phrase or a line, maybe a couplet, sometimes an idea. That will usually simmer for a long time, and I'll add to it. A phrase will become a line; a line sentence or a strophe; an idea will begin to merge with words. Eventually (sometimes immediately), some of that stuff will find way to a sheet of paper, usually with a date and place; sometimes on two different sheets of paper as I might start it at work, continue at home, and discover I left my original paper clipped to my diary on blotter calendar.

Once I have a significant amount of stuff on paper, I will continue building in several areas: adding lines and strophes, filling gaps, searching for better words to replace the first ones, and considering the strength of line breaks in enhancing the meaning. Eventually, I consider it done--in first draft. I normally let it simmer some more, and come back to it after some amount of time for finalizing. Often, at the re-look, I realize the poem is defficient in images and metaphor, and I'll have to work on it some more. The longest I've worked on a completed poem so far is about three years. But I have one still simmering, with an opening line and a closing couplet, and no amount of heat has brought it to a boil.

Am I happy with my poems? Normally I am, at the time of "final" completion. I'm not far enough into my "career" as a poet to have picked up something from a long time ago and puked at how bad it is. That will probably come at the end of my formative decade.

Best Regards,
NDG

* ain't gonna happen

[Writer???]

Welcome back pal. Glad you've gotten some inspiration and hope the juices start FLOODING again soon.

I am currently in the same boat that you are stepping out of and haven't written a word in over a month now. I just suddenly felt like, "What's the point?" one day and just as suddenly, nothing came.

I think I got lazy from spending too much time in OP. Yeah, that must be it. Well, that my excuse anyway. :D

Anyway, welcome back, I look forward to reading your work and your crits.

[KTC]

Norman. I have to remember that acronym. AGH. I like that. The sound it makes is akin to the feeling one gets when they desire to use that phrase too.

As for wanting to aspire to Robert Frost, I reread his work constantly. What a terrific mountain to climb. A fine example of what poetry attempts to claim in its creation. When I read his work I feel like I lose that fragile thread of self... I float away in his words. It is better, I think, to aspire to grandiose than to mediocre. I wish you the best of luck.

[Shweta]

I'm thinking I want to take a deep breath & post some more pieces here, but...
I haven't really contributed at all to poetry crit. Because I know nothing about how poetry is meant to work, what little I've got is intuitive.

...So should I...what should I do? I certainly don't want to ask for crits without doing my part, but should I, I dunno, put in a *clueless* disclaimer at the start of my posts or something?

[LimeyDawg]

I ususally dip into poetry when I'm blocked. I find the different muscles used for poetry as opposed to prose/novel writing complement each other and keep me writing pretty much constantly. As far as reading poetry, I usually read what I enjoy. I can't suffer too much of poets whose work bores me, or is beyond my understanding. This is why I like Kooser, but struggle with Whitman, why Frost is on my bookshelf, but not Spenser.

[P.H.Delarran]

.... Because I know nothing about how poetry is meant to work, what little I've got is intuitive.

...So should I...what should I do? I certainly don't want to ask for crits without doing my part, but should I, I dunno, put in a *clueless* disclaimer at the start of my posts or something?
intuitive crits have value as well as technical ones, and you'll find you learn something from the experience.

[poetinahat]

What PH said. Say what you think -- and pick up bits you like from what others offer. Any feedback is appreciated.

We're all learning along the way; I had never given a crit, and had barely written anything, when I arrived. Somehow, I steeled myself and started offering comments, figuring that somebody would tell me to pull my head in if necessary.

The critique environment is good for learning to critique too, or so I believe.

So have at it, Shw -- and, I know, you're better than you'll admit to.

[Shweta]

intuitive crits have value as well as technical ones, and you'll find you learn something from the experience.

What PH said. Say what you think -- and pick up bits you like from what others offer. Any feedback is appreciated.

Okies.
Uh, and if I say something that's total nonsense someone will poke me, right? :)


So have at it, Shw -- and, I know, you're better than you'll admit to.

I admit nothing!
Actually I just have no idea where I am on it. Which is sort of more dangerous in a way than knowing one is plain bad. It's that that aspect of.. playing with words and images... is all hindbrain to me.

And :Hug2:Thanks!
I knew I could count on you guys to tell me whether to jump in or watch for a bit.

[jst5150]

Just spitballing ...

As someone who posts frequently on the poetry forum (and, like poet, hasn't critted as frequently, but that's another paragraph), I just look for any inkling at all that I've got something, good or bad. And we've talked about the uniqueness of the poetry forum, in that some use it as the de facto place to publish their works rather than just offering them as drafts or partials.

As to intuitive or technical, I'm more concerned with just seeing someone else pipe in with comments. And don't think I'm alone on this one. ;) So, if you're doing a driveby on this post, no matter what discipline you come from, if you just pop in, read and leave a comment, it means the world to people publishing their poems here, like me. :)

[LimeyDawg]

A bad crit is better than no crit at all, and how can you possibly become a better critiquer if you don't practice. There's is also an insidious underside to critting, namely that when you can see what does and does not work in others' poetry, you become much better at seeing it in your own, but, err...don't tell anyone.

[Shweta]

A bad crit is better than no crit at all, and how can you possibly become a better critiquer if you don't practice. There's is also an insidious underside to critting, namely that when you can see what does and does not work in others' poetry, you become much better at seeing it in your own, but, err...don't tell anyone.

Yes, in general, I think.
That's why I've been reading stuff and thinking about it. But I haven't quite dared actually post my thoughts. But I will :)