"Hussein"

[William Haskins]

is it inherently racist or otherwise bigoted to use obama's middle name in referring to him and, if so, why?

[Robert Toy]

No

[Gina_Marie]

I said no. Its his name.

[dolores haze]

Nope.

[John Paton]

It may appear that by referring to Obama as Hussein is by association also giving the impression he is a Muslim. The name Hussein can certainly be associated with the Islamic religion.

As this can cause confusion and the person who has originally called him Hussein has added to this confusion, then we can surmise the confusion was intentional.

Therefore the perpertrator could be classed as someone, who by calling Obama Hussein, we may consider to be either bigoted or a nuisance. Therefore it is probably safer just to call him Obama or Barak.

Maybe this is a reflection of the PC world we live in.

[William Haskins]

so, since mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a middle name that might be construed by some in a negative light, people should treat him as a special case and not mention it?

one could argue that mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a skin tone and hair texture that might be construed by some in a negative light. is it then racist or otherwise bigoted to show a picture of him?

[InfinityGoddess]

The name itself is not racist, but the tone in which it has been used certainly is.

[billythrilly7th]

I don 't think it's inherently racist or bigoted to use the term, but Republicans will use it in a really annoying way to underhandedly try and keep driving the point home that we shouldn't vote for Barack because he's Muslimy.

"Look, if Barack HUSSEIN Obama takes office, it's gonna be..."
Ann Coulter

Depends on who's using it IMO will be the only way to decide of it's a benign use or trying to get a dig in and score sleazy political points.

I must say.... "I don't love the fact that his middle name is Hussein!!"

But the more I hear from the B-Man the more I'm convinced that it's a complete non-issue and the more I'm embaressed that I even did or slightly think about it as being a problem.

[Cranky]

so, since mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a middle name that might be construed by some in a negative light, people should treat him as a special case and not mention it?

once could argue that mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a skin tone and hair texture that might be construed by some in a negative light. is it then racist or otherwise bigoted to show a picture of him?

Honestly, Haskins, how many other politicians go by their full names (first, middle, last) nowadays?

Most people don't use their full names all of the time, and neither do the people talking to or about them. Unless, of course, you're talkin' serial killers (who always seem to have Wayne as a middle name) So, when you're using Barack Obama's middle name, knowing it's controversial, what other conclusion can one draw?

[clintl]

Mentioning the name is not offensive. Using the name as a weapon against Obama because of his ancestry is very racist and offensive, and that's what those who are using it are doing. Intent matters.

[John Paton]

I think the motives of people who would call him Hussein should be examined.

Would people call Hillary, Rodham?

Would people call McCain, Sidney?

Would people call Bush, Walker (Texas Ranger) ?

No they wouldn't.

Why would people call Obama Hussein unless they wanted to denigrate him in some way?

I think his skin tone has nothing to do with anything. He is s good looking guy who takes a pride in his appearance. Pictures of him are totally irrelevant to the discussion of his name.

[Cranky]

I think the motives of people who would call him Hessein should be examined.

Would people call Hillary, Rodham?

Would people call McCain, Sidney?

Would people call Bush, Walker (Texas Ranger) ?

No they wouldn't.

Why would people call Obama Hussein unless they wanted to denigrate him in some way?

I think his skin tone has nothing to do with anything. He is s good looking guy who takes a pride in his appearance. Pictures of him are totally irrelevant to the discussion of his name.

And Hillary dropped the "Rodham" from her name quite some time ago.

[billythrilly7th]

And Hillary dropped the "Rodham" from her name quite some time ago.

Lotsa news guys still call her that though.

It's really annoying.

[William Haskins]

Honestly, Haskins, how many other politicians go by their full names (first, middle, last) nowadays?

presidents most certainly do.

[Cranky]

presidents most certainly do.

What, when they are taking the Oath of Office? On their Presidential libraries?

To keep bringing it up smacks of dirty pool, imo, and the people that use that tactic are lazy. He has a name that is Arabic or Muslim. So what? They are trying to imply things that aren't true by using it, and that is what ticks me off.

Attack him on the issues. Attack Hillary on the issues. Attack McCain on the issues. His name (not his choice, btw) is NOT an issue.

Again, IMO. Also, this doesn't imply that you, William Haskins, are intimating he's some sort of sleeper Muslim terrorist running for President in order to destroy America or something.

But there are people that are.

Personally, it's his politics that concern me, not his middle name.

[rugcat]

so, since mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a middle name that might be construed by some in a negative light, people should treat him as a special case and not mention it?Sophistry, anyone?

Like most people, Obama does not commonly use his middle name. Nor does John McCain. In fact, I have no idea what McCain's middle name is. So when someone constantly includes his middle name when speaking of Obama, often emphasizing it, there is only one reason -- to make people uncomfortable with a name that he shares with Muslims, specifically Arabs in general, and a vile dictator at that.

It's not like it's a secret. But the constant use of it by right wingers is transparent and creepy. Not to say it won't work.

Of course, left wingers would probably do the same thing if McCain's middle name happened to be Bush.

[Plot Device]

And Hillary dropped the "Rodham" from her name quite some time ago.
Lotsa news guys still call her that though.

It's really annoying.


She fought so frigging HARD for something like a year to get the news to call her that. Why has she dropped it?

[John Paton]

Of course, left wingers would probably do the same thing if McCain's middle name happened to be Bush.

Or even Adolph.

[Gina_Marie]

Its gonna be used, and as others said it all depends on who is using it and who is listening to it when its said.

This is politics. And as Rugcat said if the same were true for McCain you better beleive the Dems would use it.

[Cranky]

Lotsa news guys still call her that though.

It's really annoying.

Well, we don't want to get into my opinion of newsguys, billy. LOL

[William Haskins]

What, when they are taking the Oath of Office? On their Presidential libraries?

in general use. even apolitical people without much grasp of history at all know that nixon's middle name was 'milhous'. numerous presidents of the modern era are known (and were during their terms) by acronyms that included middle initials: JFK, LBJ, FDR...

[John Paton]

in general use. even apolitical people without much grasp of history at all know that nixon's middle name was 'milhous'


Now me being an afficionado of "The Simpsons" that's where I've heard that name b4.

Thank you William ;)

[johnnysannie]

And Hillary dropped the "Rodham" from her name quite some time ago.

Yes, she did and I would like to know why. As First Lady, she was very adamant that the media and everyone else refer to her as "Hillary Rodham Clinton", using her maiden name as part of her name. Nothing wrong with that - I do it myself (Lee Ann Sontheimer Murphy).

But why drop it after insisting it be used?

As for "Hussein", the name itself is not racist; it reflects a portion of Obama's heritage but the way that it has been targeted by some is indeed racist, in a futile effort to paint Obama as both a Muslim and a terrorist by default.

[Plot Device]

is it inherently racist or otherwise bigoted to use obama's middle name in referring to him and, if so, why?


I voted no. And yet I can't help but feel that anyone who calls him by his full name is trying to make an invalid association between him and Saddam.

I recall when the O.J. Simpson was on trial, the prosecution made it a point to call him "Mr. Owen James Simpson" all during the proceedings, and the legal news analysts said it was a deliberate ploy to try and help the jury separate themselves from the legendary mystique of herodom associated with the name "O.J. Simpson" ad to try and see him as just any ordinary man--one not so legendary and very capabale of murder.

So it's all (to me) not so much racism and an effort to tweak people's perceptions of Obama, to try and re-present him and re-package him as less of the JFK and more of the public enemy number one in the vein of either Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.





What is in a name????

A lot.




.

[Perks]

The answer to the basic question is, of course, no. If this usage question stems from that radio guy, Cunningham, crying foul over getting snubbed by McCain after making a point of, not using Obama's full name, but repeatedly referring to him as 'Hussein' then, well, no, it's still not racist. It's just an obnoxious and pitifully obvious attempt to force a negative association between Barack Obama and a recent enemy of our country. An enemy whom we defeated and saw swing.

Cunningham's a jackass and it's very, very funny that he got his widdle feelings hurt.

[johnnysannie]

Honestly, Haskins, how many other politicians go by their full names (first, middle, last) nowadays?

Most people don't use their full names all of the time, and neither do the people talking to or about them. Unless, of course, you're talkin' serial killers (who always seem to have Wayne as a middle name) So, when you're using Barack Obama's middle name, knowing it's controversial, what other conclusion can one draw?

Serial killers do not "always" seem to have Wayne as a middle name. My son has Wayne as his middle name; so does his father. Both are named after an uncle, Wayne, and none of them are serial killers.

Connecting any middle name - be it Wayne to serial killers or Hussein to Muslim terrorists - is about the most ridiculous, infantile thing that someone can do.

[William Haskins]

so, if a republican in the campaign uses his middle name, even without inflection or attendant commentary, it's a dirty trick, but if he wins and a supreme court justice says it while swearing him in, it's legitimate?

[Cranky]

in general use. even apolitical people without much grasp of history at all know that nixon's middle name was 'milhous'. numerous presidents of the modern era are known (and were during their terms) by acronyms that included middle initials: JFK, LBJ, FDR...

BHO. Not so good. :D

And to be frank, I'd forgotten what Nixon's middle name was. It's more common for Presidents to be referred to as President So-and-So, Former President So-and-So, or simply by the last name. The ones that use only their initials are the ones well known enough that people will recognize them by initials alone. Nobody calls Jimmy Carter JEC, for example. GWB usually called that to differentiate him from his father, near as I can tell. And Bill Clinton isn't WJC, either.

Sure, it happens, but not often enough to go around calling him Barack Hussien Obama constantly unless you're trying to make a point.

[Cranky]

Serial killers do not "always" seem to have Wayne as a middle name. My son has Wayne as his middle name; so does his father. Both are named after an uncle, Wayne, and none of them are serial killers.

Connecting any middle name - be it Wayne to serial killers or Hussein to Muslim terrorists - is about the most ridiculous, infantile thing that someone can do.

Excuse me for being tongue in cheek. The point stands, and it has nothing to do with what your son's middle name is.

[William Haskins]

Connecting any middle name - be it Wayne to serial killers or Hussein to Muslim terrorists - is about the most ridiculous, infantile thing that someone can do.

then would you not agree that objecting to its use by automatically assuming it's done malevolently is equally infantile?

[Plot Device]

And I will add that I personally AGONIZE over the names of my characters in my scripts.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71544

I am extremely sensitive to how a name sounds when spoken on the screen. I am very cautious over trying to suss out how a name might come across, what it might unintentionally rhyme with, etc.

[Cranky]

so, if a republican in the campaign uses his middle name, even without inflection or attendant commentary, it's a dirty trick, but if he wins and a supreme court justice says it while swearing him in, it's legitimate?

Well, the Supreme Court Justice would simply be administering the Oath of Office, not running a campaign.

[Perks]

then would you not agree that objecting to its use by automatically assuming it's done malevolently is equally infantile?Has anyone 'automatically' done so?

[William Haskins]

oh lord yes. google around a little. a line has been drawn that the very utterance of his full name is a scarlet letter of bigotry.

[johnnysannie]

then would you not agree that objecting to its use by automatically assuming it's done malevolently is equally infantile?

No because it IS being done with malicious intent by Obama detractors who really believe that they can turn public opinion against him by chanting "Hussein". And the sad part is that there are too damn many Americans who will hear "Hussein" and decide yep, he must be one of them thar gosh danged Muslim terrorists.

[InfinityGoddess]

then would you not agree that objecting to its use by automatically assuming it's done malevolently is equally infantile?

It usually is being done malevolently. That's why I object to its usage by the likes of Cunningham and the Tennessee Republicans.

EDIT: And Michelle defends her husband. Just saw snippets of a speech on MSNBC.

[johnnysannie]

so, if a republican in the campaign uses his middle name, even without inflection or attendant commentary, it's a dirty trick, but if he wins and a supreme court justice says it while swearing him in, it's legitimate?

If a middle name is used in an effort to detract from someone without any basis other than the name itself, it is unfair. Using it when being sworn in is not at all the same thing.

[Plot Device]

then would you not agree that objecting to its use by automatically assuming it's done malevolently is equally infantile?


If someone doesn't WANT to be called by their full name, then don't. If they do, then do.

I knew a kid named Arthur and he hated it, so he preferred everyone call him by his middle name instead (Phillip). The only people who ever called him by his first name were people who were trying to piss him off.

It's standard in ettiquette is to call someone by the name they prefer. Period. And in writing letters, you're expected to spell their name the way they prefer it spelled.

Speaking of letters, when I was in high school business class, I was taught that when draftig a business letter to another business, I should double check with that business' stationery and letterhead to see how it is that they preferred their name spelled, and even how their address should be laid out (such as "Boulevard" instead of "Blvd").

Barack NEVER calls himself by all three names, so why should anyone else?? (Unless they're trying to piss him off.)

[William Haskins]

EDIT: And Michelle defends her husband. Just saw snippets of a speech on MSNBC.

golly, it seems like if they don't want people saying it and just want it to go away so they can focus on the issues and not have people swayed by it, they'd just shut up about it, huh?

seems like they're almost trying to capitalize on it.

goddamn language. everyone twisting it to their own ends.

[Perks]

oh lord yes. google around a little. a line has been drawn that the very utterance of his full name is a scarlet letter of bigotry.The first I heard of it was Cunningham being a prick about it. Obama's campaign is run with 'Barack Obama'. Every byline that's been credited to him says 'Barack Obama'. George used his middle initial. Hillary used to use 'Rodham' reasonably often, but seemed to drop it as cumbersome. Oddly, people seemed to prefer to be called as they name themselves in their public endeavors.

Most people making a point to insert his middle name while referencing him are enjoying the (semi) current event connotation. It doesn't take a paranoid to see this.

[John Paton]

Hmmmm.

If Obama does become elected and serves a glorious term or two - I would hate for him to be remembered as BO !

[Plot Device]

I wonder what Republicans would be calling Obama if his middle name was Kennedy.

[William Haskins]

Barack NEVER calls himself by all three names, so why should anyone else?? (Unless they're trying to piss him off.)

mr. obama doesn't own public discourse of reality.

his name is a matter of public record, and a presidential candidate is neither shown nor owed the deference one might show a sensitive friend.

[Perks]

Hmmmm.

If Obama does become elected and serves a glorious term or two - I would hate for him to be remembered as BO !No worries. Ronald Reagan isn't referred to as RR. Eisenhower isn't remembered as DE, or even the stuttery DDE. Assery of this sort always gets ironed out in the end.

[John Paton]

mr. obama doesn't own public discourse of reality.

his name is a matter of public record, and a presidential candidate is neither shown nor owed the deference one might show a sensitive friend.

No he shouldn't. But why do you think neither Hillary nor McCain refer to him as Hussein. Because if they did they would be regarded as mean-spirited and small minded to say the least.

[Robert Toy]

I wonder what Republicans would be calling Obama if his middle name was Kennedy.
Womanizer?

[Bird of Prey]

in general use. even apolitical people without much grasp of history at all know that nixon's middle name was 'milhous'. numerous presidents of the modern era are known (and were during their terms) by acronyms that included middle initials: JFK, LBJ, FDR...
True, but if he became president, I'm not sure whether Mr. Obama would appreciate either BO or BHO in terms of that traditon.

His middle name is his middle name. I think it's natural that it will be referred to now and then as per for example, Wiki. I suppose I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be.

[Plot Device]

mr. obama doesn't own public discourse of reality.

his name is a matter of public record, and a presidential candidate is neither shown nor owed the deference one might show a sensitive friend.

And what about that HUGE hullabaloo fourteen years ago when Hillary INSISTED she be called "Hillary Rodham-Clinton?"

She INSISTED upon it.

[William Haskins]

No he shouldn't. But why do you think neither Hillary nor McCain refer to him as Hussein. Because if they did they would be regarded as mean-spirited and small minded to say the least.

great question. do they avoid it because it's inherently wrong or because of the political correctness that pervades our society?

politicians avoid frankness on a host of issues because of the industry of manufactured outrage.

[Perks]

great question. do they avoid it because it's inherently wrong or because of the political correctness that pervades our society?

Or option C - probably for the same reason he doesn't call McCain - John Sidney. It's not how he refers to himself.

[Plot Device]

great question. do they avoid it because it's inherently wrong or because of the political correctness that pervades our society?

politicians avoid frankness on a host of issues because of the industry of manufactured outrage.


How is effing-around with someone's name a form of frankness???

[sandyn]

If there had not been an Iraqi dictator named Saddam Hussein, would we even be having this discussion?

Night all.

[Perks]

If there had not been an Iraqi dictator named Saddam Hussein, would we even be having this discussion?In a word? No.

[William Haskins]

How is effing-around with someone's name a form of frankness???

how is saying someone's name "effing-around" with it?

[John Paton]

I think ultimately it is about political correctness. And sure, why would Hillary or McCain stir up unnecessary controversy - what would it serve? Any advantages ? Nope nothing - nothing at all

[Monkey]

There has been a big internet hoopla over Obama supposedly being a Muslim, or even a terrorist bent on taking America down from the inside. At the rally I attended, there were flyers placed on winshields that implied that Obama was Muslim, (I didn't stop to read them, so I don't know how far they went) and one guy carried a sign with the twin towers, and in the smoke rising up from them he'd photoshopped a picture of Barack. Another had a sign saying that Obama refused to salute the American flag and wanted to sign in on the Koran.

Did you see the OP of "Obama's Osama Garb"?

There is a very real attempt to depict Obama as some sort of radical Muslim. I have no objections to his full name being used, but stressing the middle name so heavily and repeatedly seems like an obvious attempt to capitalize on this misinformation.

[Cranky]

There has been a big internet hoopla over Obama supposedly being a Muslim, or even a terrorist bent on taking America down from the inside. At the rally I attended, there were flyers placed on winshields that implied that Obama was Muslim, (I didn't stop to read them, so I don't know how far they went) and one guy carried a sign with the twin towers, and in the smoke rising up from them he'd photoshopped a picture of Barack. Another had a sign saying that Obama refused to salute the American flag and wanted to sign in on the Koran.

Did you see the OP of "Obama's Osama Garb"?

There is a very real attempt to depict Obama as some sort of radical Muslim. I have no objections to his full name being used, but stressing the middle name so heavily and repeatedly seems like an obvious attempt to capitalize on this misinformation.

Exactly. I would think this is pretty obvious, but maybe that's just me.:Shrug:

[Plot Device]

how is saying someone's name "effing-around" with it?


Can I start calling you Willy?

Can I start calling you Wee Willy?

Can I start calling you "Haskins-Comma-William??"

Can I start calling you "Bill?"

You obviosuly have a PREFERRED way for your name to be spoken. We all do. That's part of human existence. Only in tribal cultures are uninvited names cast upon people and then adopted by everyone else around them via popular consent -- like the name "Dances With Wolves" gets invented and then agreed upon by everyone else in the tribe, regardless of how John Dunbar feels about it.

[John Paton]

one guy carried a sign with the twin towers, and in the smoke rising up from them he'd photoshopped a picture of Barack. Another had a sign saying that Obama refused to salute the American flag and wanted to sign in on the Koran.


I wonder if these are the same people who were certain that Iraq still had wmd 3 years after the US led invasion.

Oh - and who thought the 911 terrorists were all funded by Iraq.

[Perks]

This is one of those discussions that will not be won by highlighting associations and language nuances, and as such, the intent of certain players. The literalist, who enjoys that position when purposes are served, will always be able to say, "Oh my goodness. It's just his name. Why so defensive?"

I hear cages being rattled. It's a trap. Get an axe.

[William Haskins]

Can I start calling you Willy?

Can I start calling you Wee Willy?

Can I start calling you "Haskins-Comma-William??"

Can I start calling you "Bill?"

you can call me whatever the fuck you want. but those are diminutive abstractions of my real name, so it's not analogous to this discussion.

if you called me by my full, legal, birth name, i would be quite silly to object.

[Plot Device]

you can call me whatever the fuck you want. but those are diminutive abstractions of my real name, so it's not analogous to this discussion.

if you called me by my full, legal, birth name, i would be quite silly to object.


Care to share it??

[William Haskins]

This is one of those discussions that will not be won by highlighting associations and language nuances, and as such, the intent of certain players. The literalist, who enjoys that position when purposes are served, will always be able to say, "Oh my goodness. It's just his name. Why so defensive?"

I hear cages being rattled. It's a trap. Get an axe.

yes, let's all huddle together by the faint fire with our axes grasped tightly and mumble how noble we are to condemn the precise use of language.

[William Haskins]

Care to share it??

"jesusfucker"

[John Paton]

Thomas

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=607487

[John Paton]

Sorry William but curiosity got the better of me here ;)

[Cranky]

you can call me whatever the fuck you want. but those are diminutive abstractions of my real name, so it's not analogous to this discussion.

if you called me by my full, legal, birth name, i would be quite silly to object.

William Osama Hussien Haskins.

Got a nice ring to it. Plus, you get an extra initial.

Of course none of this should matter, Haskins, but the fact remains, for some people, it does. So they make an issue of it, and that's how we end up here, crossing swords on an internet forum over some politician's name.

You wouldn't have had a poll to post if people somewhere weren't getting hysterical and circulating stupid internet rumors about Obama's supposed terrorist connections (shadowy or otherwise), based in part on that middle name, correct?

[Perks]

yes, let's all huddle together by the faint fire with our axes grasped tightly and mumble how noble we are to condemn the precise use of language.Relax. It was a quote from Army of Darkness.

[William Haskins]

Sorry William but curiosity got the better of me here ;)

i see. if you could avoid posting my social security number on the internet, that'd be swell.

thanks.

[John Paton]

i see. if you could avoid posting my social security number on the internet, that'd be swell.

thanks.


I know - but you appear to be famous. I typed into google "William Haskins middle name" just for the heck of it and google came up with the AW link.

I am sorry tho - it was a little presumptious of me

[rugcat]

yes, let's all huddle together by the faint fire with our axes grasped tightly and mumble how noble we are to condemn the precise use of language.Those with skill at language can use it to distort as well as illuminate.

[William Haskins]

I know - but you appear to be famous. I typed into google "William Haskins middle name" just for the heck of it and google came up with the AW link.

I am sorry tho - it was a little presumptious of me

it's okay. just a little identity theft humor.

[Plot Device]

yes, let's all huddle together by the faint fire with our axes grasped tightly and mumble how noble we are to condemn the precise use of language.


A person's name is universally seen as THEIR name, and the utterance of that name is always an encroachment onto their identity, and the distortion of that name is always an assault against their identitiy. A person's name is to be uttererd according to their prefernce, just ask Ellen Degeneres about that. That's NOT an opinion of mine, it's FACT that any kindergarten teacher can explain to you as well as any Psych 101 professor. You're just PRETEDNING that you don't see this and I'm finding you downright childish right now via your feigning of inocence.

Your OP asked if it was racist. I voted no. But the current situation of various media commentators making underhanded and allusive associations between Obama and BOTH of the most hated men in recent US memory is sure as hell anatgonistic. And you are again only pretending that it's all nonsense. You're too smart NOT to see this, and I can't believe you would stoop to this kind of make-believe feigning of inocence. My opinion of you has been greatly diminished in the past hour.

[William Haskins]

My opinio of you has been greatly diminished in the past hour.

i'll try to live through it.

[Plot Device]

Those with skill at language can use it to distort as well as illuminate.

Maybe we should ask that people who are somehow adept at the usage of language. Like maybe ...... writers.

[Perks]

Or maybe, in the interest of clarity and precision, we should all start using our full legal names in every exchange. God knows I wouldn't want to confuse Barack Hussein Obama with my neighbor, Barack Alfred Obama. That guy's an asshole.

[John Paton]

Or maybe, in the interest of clarity and precision, we should all start using our full legal names in every exchange.

I was thinking of changing my nick to something more appropriate. I've always like JP11 - JP my initials and 11 the size of my shoes.

I wonder how easy this is.

[William Haskins]

a supermod can do it. just PM one of them.

[Bird of Prey]

Well, the name thing is pretty tricky. I mean, it's not like babies get to pick. I was legally adopted, had two different birth certificates. . .two different years of birth - yep, little mistake - two different last names . . . I can google my name up and see everything wrong. Oh well.

[William Haskins]

but he was known as barry as a youngster. he decided to proudly call himself his real name barak (an equally exotic name) because he was proud of his heritage. it's the same heritage.

[Bird of Prey]

but he was known as barry as a youngster. he decided to proudly call himself his real name barak (an equally exotic name) because he was proud of his heritage. it's the same heritage.

I certainly have no problem with people using his full name. And if he has a problem with it, he should just say so.

Add: And he doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

[William Haskins]

he's certainly trotted out his surrogates (including his wife) to rant about it.

[Bird of Prey]

he's certainly trotted out his surrogates (including his wife) to rant about it.


Oh really? I guess I haven't been keeping up. Well that's really ridiculous. Not only ridiculous but frankly, kinda dopey. What does he think, that the American people don't have a right to know his name?

Or maybe it should be "hidden" or "hushed up" because of the association with somebody that was hung a while back?

[William Haskins]

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/michelle_obama_name_hussein_is.html

[brokenfingers]

is it inherently racist or otherwise bigoted to use obama's middle name in referring to him and, if so, why?It's all in the context.

In the course of normal conversation, the answer is obviously 'No'.

As a tool for fear-mongering and subtextual word association - 'Yes'.

There was a sketch or a scene from a movie a while back, I forgot where or which, where this arrogant bully had it out for this Jewish kid and kept calling him "Hymie" (which was his name), using his name and adding emphasis on the word - loudly and repeatedly.

The obvious subtext was that he was pointing out the kid was Jewish, therefore ostracizing him and signalling him out to the crowd as an outsider and fit to be shunned and made fun of.

[Bird of Prey]

You know, it's just so odd that his being black has been played up as an asset, yet his name is being used against him?

And to assume that the American people are so stupid as to confuse him with a deceased dictator is terribly insulting.

[brokenfingers]

It's not the fact that his name bears a resemblance to a deposed dictator's as much as it is an emphasis that his name isn't Jones or Smith.

Believe it or not, xenohopobia is a very real fear and concern in small town America.

[blacbird]

is it inherently racist or otherwise bigoted to use obama's middle name in referring to him and, if so, why?

Context, William. Depends on how you do it, and under what circumstances. What this nitwit Cunningham did a night or two ago was obviously an attempt to get idiots all fired up about it, and even Glenn Beck objected to the way it was done (though Limpbaugh couldn't figure out why anybody got riled). It's about as substantial as noting that Obama is left-handed, which obviously makes him a commiepinkosympathizer. Bill Clinton is left-handed, too, but so are George H. W. Bush and Ross Perot. But wait! Osama bin-Laden is left-handed, too; obviously, since the names rhyme, Obama and Osama are in league with one another! Worse yet, I'm left-handed. Obama is in league with me! Quick, tell the Bopsler.

It ranks right up with calling Obama a nigger, and claiming you didn't mean anything derogatory by it.

caw

[kristie911]

And to assume that the American people are so stupid as to confuse him with a deceased dictator is terribly insulting.

Really? Because I know a lot of people that are that stupid.

[Bird of Prey]

It's not the fact that his name bears a resemblance to a deposed dictator's as much as it is an emphasis that his name isn't Jones or Smith.

Believe it or not, xenohopobia is a very real fear and concern in small town America.


So then they don't vote for him. I mean, it is America, where people have all kinds of reasons why they do or they don't vote for somebody. But I don't think he should try to "trick" people with a distorted image of himself, starting with something as simple as his name.

And small town America really isn't that dumb.

[Perks]

But I don't think he should try to "trick" people with a distorted image of himself, starting with something as simple as his name.

Yeah, calling himself Barack Obama. What a slickster.

This discussion is hilarious, in a headachey kind a way.

[kristie911]

And small town America really isn't that dumb.

Thank-you. :D

Well, some of them are but I'm betting there are just as many idiots in the city. ;)

[Bird of Prey]

Yeah, calling himself Barack Obama. What a slickster.

This discussion is hilarious, in a headachey kind a way.

Maybe I just don't get it. His name is Barack Hussein Obama, right?

That's what Wiki says. So what? So if I say his middle name, I'm fear mongering?

[blacbird]

But I don't think he should try to "trick" people with a distorted image of himself, starting with something as simple as his name.

And small town America really isn't that dumb.

No, but apparently you are. If this message gets through to your planet, please explain to all of us how Barack Obama is trying to "trick" anyone about his name.

caw

[Jersey Chick]

This whole thing reminds me of the brouhaha over the fact that Kennedy was an Irish Catholic.

Frankly, I don't care what his middle name it, or if he chooses to use it or not. But I have to wonder why now is when people start pointing it out. (maybe it's not that recent, but I don't recall hearing it much before now.) That's what makes me go hmmm... and wonder about ulterior motives.

Do I think it's racist? No. Do I think there might be some less-than-honorable intentions behind the usage by certain parties - possibly. Maybe no racist, but it does give off a whiff of fear mongering (not by use, but by making sure it is pointed out at every chance).

Won't change my vote. (not that i know who i will vote for, but you get the point)

[Bird of Prey]

No, but apparently you are.
caw

I'm not taking any more shit from you.

[blacbird]

I'm not taking any more shit from you.

Sure you are. Every time you post something as dumb as what you just did. Get used to it.

caw

[Perks]

Maybe I just don't get it. His name is Barack Hussein Obama, right?

That's what Wiki says. So what? So if I say his middle name, I'm fear mongering?Of course not. You wouldn't be that goofy. You're more of a "woo-hoo! It's Ralph Nader!" and a "I-like-Hillary-better" kinda girl.

(Both of which are perfectly fine.)

This whole name thing is a joke for me where the only punchline is "Psssst. Pull your skirt down, your agenda is showing."

[Bird of Prey]

Sure you are. Every time you post something as dumb as what you just did. Get used to it.

caw

Let me help you out here. You have absolutely no right to use this forum to call me an idiot as you did, and all the assorted blatant insults that have been leading up to this conversation. You apparently think you own the board, and have the right to be uncivilized, condescending and insulting any time you damn well feel like it, particularly toward me. Well, Bbird,I can't help who you are, but I can do something about how you manifest it.

[blacbird]

You still haven't answered my question, Bopsley: Please explain to all of us how Barack Obama is trying to "trick" anyone about his name.

Note that I actually said, "Please."

caw

[rugcat]

This may be the only thread in existence where William and BoP agree.

[Perks]

Lol! I was just thinking that myself.

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm."

[Gravity]

I hear the sound of wooden chairs being pushed back, the player piano hushed, and see Miss Kitty helping Sam take down the ornate mirror that's on the wall behind the bar...

[John Paton]

Is the wedding off between BoP and Bbird?

Come on guys ..... think what the makeup sex will be like ! ;)

[blacbird]

Still waitin' on that answer, BoPso.

caw

[host]

I voted yes. I am influenced by an argument I heard from a radio talk.show host, two days ago. The argument comes from Michael Medved, on SRN, a Christian-centric radio network of 1200 US stations, founded and managed by Council for National Policy principles, Stu Epperson and Edward Atsinger III. SRN, "Salem Radio Network", also owns townhall.com .

I disagree with everything I have ever read or heard on or from these media properties, except this:

Mitt Romney is never called "Willard", because he has made it known that he choses to use his middle name, "Mitt". His full name is Willard Mitt Romney.

Obama was known as "Barry", through much of his life. There is no record of his own public use of his middle name. Medved cautioned his radio audience against calling Obama, "Barak Hussein Obama", because it relegates those who describe Obama that way, to "the fringe" and marginalizes anything further that they intend to say about Obama.

Hillary Clinton asked to be described as Hillary "Rodham" Clinton, but later signaled a renewed preference for "Hillary Clinton".

I know of no instance where anyone describes Obama by "Hussein" Obama, in a flattering or even a neutral manner. There was no practice of calling president Clinton, "William", instead of Bill, or of calling president Carter, "James" instead of Jimmy.

Unless Obama signals his preference for including "Hussein" in introductions or press reporting, or describes himself in that way, why would you take the initiative to refer to him that way, especially if you haven't been calling Mitt, "Willard", or Hillary, "Hillary Rodham", in this campaign cycle.

How many of you have ever described president Reagan as "Ronald Wilson Reagan"?

....and, there was this added influence:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/theampersand/archive/2008/02/24/jon-stewart-s-oscar-monologue.aspx
......Have you all had a chance to examine all the candidates, study their positions and pick the Democrat you’ll vote for? Democrats do have an historic race going. Hillary Clinton vs Barack Obama. Normally, when you see a black man or a woman president an asteroid is about to hit the Statue of Liberty. How will we know it’s the future? Silver unitards, that can’t be all? You have to give Barack Obama credit, he’s overcome a great deal. Not just he’s an African-American. Barack Hussein Obama is his name. His middle name is the last name of Iraq’s former tyrant. His last name rhymes with Osama. That’s not easy to overcome. I think we all remember the ill fated 1944 presidential campaign of Gaydolf Titler. It’s just a shame, Titler had so many good ideas. We just couldn’t get past the name. And the moustache........

- John Stewart

[Inky]

Okay, so if you refer to me by my middle name: Elizabeth, are you then insinuating that A) I'm a queen
B) Some sort of virgin
C) Should expect you to bow/curtsey?

In other words, who cares about a name? Does this suddenly qualify someone? Personally, he creeps me out. That smile of his is oily. Yeah, I know, not really a valid reason, but 'tis mi' own.

He seems to spend an awful amount of time reassuring everyone he's Christian---you know, the OTHER white meat...er...religion superpower...

Here's the thing: I don't care about his name. I don't give two shits about his color. I'm not really concerned his ears alone can flap him into next Tuesday.

Can he do the job? Can he be fair/balanced/wise?

Can he make it so that we can finally stop looking like asses to the rest of the world?
Will he take the millions we're quick to give other countries, and put it towards our own education/medical/blah blah blah?

Hell, can you imagine if the money we sent for disaster relief 'round the world were directed towards Katrina? If it were Beverly Hills, that madness would have been cleaned up by now, everyone singing 'We ARe The World'....

Whomever becomes president, I just want to be able to be lift my head again. I want my leader to have one ounce of common sense. I want him/her to be able to make a speech without ending up on some comedy DVD/calander like Bushisms.

And I want the middle east out of my back pocket by way of oil. Canada made an offer, but Bush turned them down. Why? Would have pissed off his Arab cohorts.

Just do the damned job, I don't care if your name is Dudley Do Right, or JackMe Off!

[Rolling Thunder]

Bird's taking a three day time out for obvious reasons. Keep these debates on the level, without personally attacking each other, and things will go smoothly.

[Bird of Prey]

Okay, so if you refer to me by my middle name: Elizabeth, are you then insinuating that A) I'm a queen
B) Some sort of virgin
C) Should expect you to bow/curtsey?

In other words, who cares about a name? Does this suddenly qualify someone? Personally, I creeps me out. That smile of his is oily. Yeah, I know, not really a valid reason, but 'tis mi' own.

He seems to spend an awful amount of time reassuring everyone he's Christian---you know, the OTHER white meat...er...religion superpower...

Here's the thing: I don't care about his name. I don't give two shits about his color. I'm not really concerned his ears alone can flap him into next Tuesday.

Can he do the job? Can he be fair/balanced/wise?

Can he make it so that we can finally stop looking like asses to the rest of the world?
Will he take the millions we're quick to give other countries, and put it towards our own education/medical/blah blah blah?. . . .



I agree with you here. I find the name issue irrelevant compared to the real issues. If I were running for public office, I would fully expect that people would be well aware of my full name. . .or names as the case may be, and if they used my "name" in some way to make an association, it wouldn't make me any less proud of my name, nor would I try to control its use, publicly or privately.

[aruna]

My husband's middle name is Adolf. (He is German.)
I don't know. I have always been uncomfortable with him having that name.
Some names are automatically loaded.
In themselves there is nothing wrong with either Adolf or Hussein. I've known several Husseins in my lifetime; it's a common name in my country.
It is the context and the latent manipulation of potential voters by those using the name that is the problem here. And we all know why.
Someone here is playing devil's advocate.

[Monkey]

The question isn't about Barack's feelings about people using his middle name, the question was whether or not those using it were being "racist".

From the posts here, there seems to be two common answers. "No," and "No, but..."

I'm of the "No, but..." opinion. No, it isn't inherently racist to use a person's middle name. But the way that certain people are using the name Hussein has been pretty darn obviously intended to be derrogatory, and, to my eyes, has been intended to play directly into a misinformation campaign against Obama that is racist beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[eldragon]

Dare I say that anyone with a problem using Obamas name, should get a life?

I know it's too soon to expect so much. You don't go from electing W twice and then electing someone with a name that is the same as someone Bush technically had executed.

I was sitting yesterday at basketball practice with a woman who is black and a dealer at a casino. She told me that she was on a lunch break with other dealers - all white, and they mentioned in front of her that "if Obama is elected president, the U.S. is going to hell in a handbasket."

The woman told me that the black community she is affiliated with is certain that Obama will be executed, and in fact, so worried about it that many are not voting for him, to save him from certain execution.

She said also that a few people have mentioned to her that he is muslim.

I told her that I think that this part of Mississippi is racist, and that the rest of the country isn't like that, so much. I wouldn't worry about a redneck with a gun getting to Obama, because the SS is always looking for maniacs with guns.

There may never have been a black president, but freaks with guns and plans to kill a president, have been around since George Washington.

[Monkey]

She said also that a few people have mentioned to her that he is muslim.



Definitely a part of that misinformation campaign I mentioned...

[Jersey Chick]

Mitt Romney is never called "Willard", because he has made it known that he choses to use his middle name, "Mitt". His full name is Willard Mitt Romney.


The only person I've ever heard call him Willard was Keith Olbermann - and I assumed that it was meant to be snarky. He would always say "Willard Mitt Romney". Now - the difference there is obvious, as opposed to using Obama's middle name. No one is going to be subconciously afraid of Willard, whereas the name Hussein... well, you get the point.

i just want the best, most qualified person to pull us back out of the muck.

[Perks]

It is the context and the latent manipulation of potential voters by those using the name that is the problem here. And we all know why.
Someone here is playing devil's advocate.

Indeed. What's interesting about this particular discussion, as it's playing out here on AW, is that it brings to mind the whole "a noose is just a piece of rope argument" except a few of the players are reversed in their positions. Because they don't like Obama. I'm not sold on the guy and it's strange that I keep appearing to defend him when I only intend to defend logic. It certainly makes me wonder what the hell is going on here.

I can understand being weary of a hype machine. I can understand being tired of politics as usual. I can understand being resentful that mass enthusiasm may be grounded, once again, in sand and not terra firma.

What I don't get is, in this group of admirable intellects, context being used as a mirror to lob the sun back into the eyes of people making sense. It's very strange.

[Perks]

And riddle me this - With all the candidates this year running under a banner of their first and surames, why is it that I know Barack Obama's middle name, and yet I had to look up McCains, Romney's, Huckabee's, Edward's, Nader's?

Why do you think that is?

Talk about politics as usual.

[Bird of Prey]

The question isn't about Barack's feelings about people using his middle name, the question was whether or not those using it were being "racist".

From the posts here, there seems to be two common answers. "No," and "No, but..."

I'm of the "No, but..." opinion. No, it isn't inherently racist to use a person's middle name. But the way that certain people are using the name Hussein has been pretty darn obviously intended to be derrogatory, and, to my eyes, has been intended to play directly into a misinformation campaign against Obama that is racist beyond a shadow of a doubt.


Well, Monkey, I can only say that he had the option to change his name if he was worried about it, and I don't think it's right to try to make it a "white" problem now. Hillary Clinton's sex is right out there in the open, starting with "She. . . ."

And nobody blinks an eye at Obama's last name anymore, even though at the start of his campaign, it was occasionally mixed up with "Osama" even by politicians in his corner. I'm sorry, but people aren't so stupid as to cast him as an American enemy.

Nobody confuses Mohammed Ali with Mohamed Atta. And likewise other prominent men named Mohammed. I'm really having trouble with making a case that it's racist to refer to him by his full name. It's not even a black name necessarily.

[Bird of Prey]

And riddle me this - With all the candidates this year running under a banner of their first and surames, why is it that I know Barack Obama's middle name, and yet I had to look up McCains, Romney's, Huckabee's, Edward's, Nader's?

Why do you think that is?



Jay Leno and David Letterman.

[Bird of Prey]

Dare I say that anyone with a problem using Obamas name, should get a life?

I know it's too soon to expect so much. You don't go from electing W twice and then electing someone with a name that is the same as someone Bush technically had executed.

I was sitting yesterday at basketball practice with a woman who is black and a dealer at a casino. She told me that she was on a lunch break with other dealers - all white, and they mentioned in front of her that "if Obama is elected president, the U.S. is going to hell in a handbasket."

The woman told me that the black community she is affiliated with is certain that Obama will be executed, and in fact, so worried about it that many are not voting for him, to save him from certain execution.

She said also that a few people have mentioned to her that he is muslim.

I told her that I think that this part of Mississippi is racist, and that the rest of the country isn't like that, so much. I wouldn't worry about a redneck with a gun getting to Obama, because the SS is always looking for maniacs with guns.

There may never have been a black president, but freaks with guns and plans to kill a president, have been around since George Washington.


If people aren't going to vote for Barack Obama because they're racist, it won't matter if his name is Barack Hussein Obama or F. Scott Fitzgerald.

[aruna]

Well, Monkey, I can only say that he had the option to change his name if he was worried about it, and I don't think it's right to try to make it a "white" problem now. Hillary Clinton's sex is right out there in the open, starting with "She. . . ."



But if he HAD changed it prior to running for President, there'd have been people going on about him trying to hide his "Muslim affiliations", being sneaking about his heritage, being a sly politician, etc etc. It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Perks]

Jay Leno and David Letterman.Can't be. I don't stay up that late. Try again.

[Perks]

I'm really having trouble with making a case that it's racist to refer to him by his full name. Oh! Then you're in luck! Struggle no more. It's not racist. It's a political tool. And it's still intellectually dishonest to soothe anyone by saying that no one will 'confuse' him with Saddam Hussein. But you knew that already, didn't you?

[Perks]

It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.Pretty much like participating in this thread.

I gotta drag myself out of here, before my befuddlement at the kneecapping of common sense becomes an opinion more permanent.

[Bird of Prey]

But if he HAD changed it prior to running for President, there'd have been people going on about him trying to hide his "Muslim affiliations", being sneaking about his heritage, being a sly politician, etc etc. It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.


I agree. Yet oddly, Presidents in the past have changed their names.
This might be of interest:

Three Presidents used their middle name as their given name:


John Calvin Coolidge, Jr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin_Coolidge%2C_Jr.) went by Calvin
Stephen Grover Cleveland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Grover_Cleveland) went by Grover
Thomas Woodrow Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Woodrow_Wilson) went by Woodrow
Seventeen of the 42 presidents to date have no known middle name.
Several Presidential middle names were originally surnames: Baines, Birchard, Delano, Fitzgerald, Walker, Knox, Milhous, Quincy and Simpson, et al. Most of these were the President's mother's maiden name.
Gerald Rudolph Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Rudolph_Ford) was born Leslie Lynch King, Jr. therefore giving him the middle name of Lynch before his mother remarried when he was 3, however his name was not legally changed until 1935 while in law school.
Ulysses S. Grant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant) was born Hiram Ulysses Grant. His name was changed when he entered the United States Military Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy).
Harry Truman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Truman)'s middle name was only an initial; the "S" didn't stand for another name. Nevertheless he signed his name using the period after the letter.
George Herbert Walker Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Herbert_Walker_Bush) is the only President with two middle names.
There are no duplicate Presidential middle names, with the partial exception of Herbert Walker and Walker. . . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidential_names#Middle_na mes


Product of their times I guess. I think we've come a long way.

[Bird of Prey]

Oh! Then you're in luck! Struggle no more. It's not racist. It's a political tool. And it's still intellectually dishonest to soothe anyone by saying that no one will 'confuse' him with Saddam Hussein. But you knew that already, didn't you?


They won't. It's not a political tool because it's ineffective. It's nothing.

[Robert Toy]

If people aren't going to vote for Barack Obama because they're racist, it won't matter if his name is Barack Hussein Obama or F. Scott Fitzgerald.
Oh how unfortunately true.

[Bird of Prey]

Can't be. I don't stay up that late. Try again.


"Momentum continues for Barack Obama's campaign. Actually, do you know what Barack Obama's middle name is? Hussein. Could've been worse. Could've been Kerry." --Jay Leno

"Barack Obama was in New Hampshire Sunday. When informed of this, President Bush excitedly asked, 'Did we catch 'em?' --Seth Meyers

Ultimately, Obama's name will have nothing to do with the vote. I mean, these are jokes. But racism is a separate issue. Obama can't control that any more than Clinton can control sexism.

[Jcomp]

Inherently, no.

Just like the words "spook," "coon" and "monkey."

Silliness all around.

[xhouseboy]

Hillary Clinton's sex is right out there in the open, starting with "She. . . ."



So was Margaret Thatcher's ... almost thirty years ago now...

[Bird of Prey]

So was Margaret Thatcher's ... almost thirty years ago now...


Thatcher was in Great Britain.

[xhouseboy]

Thatcher was in Great Britain.

So what you saying? That three decades ago, sexism was less of an issue in the UK than it is in the US 2008?

[aruna]

So many women in so many countries have been Presidents or Heads of State that I never even thought that it would be an issue in the US; I've always thought of American women as the most progressive and assertive in the world and for me her sex was never an issue. Heck, even little Guyana has had a female head of state! I'm still having a hard time believing that in this election being female is the big deal you claim it to be.

[Bird of Prey]

So what you saying? That three decades ago, sexism was less of an issue in the UK than it is in the US 2008?

Yes. Great Britain is a very different culture imo.

[Plot Device]

No one is going to be subconciously afraid of Willard

Wanna make a bet?

http://www.impawards.com/2003/posters/willard.jpg

[Bird of Prey]

So many women in so many countries have been Presidents or Heads of State that I never even thought that it would be an issue in the US; I've always thought of American women as the most progressive and assertive in the world and for me her sex was never an issue. Heck, even little Guyana has had a female head of state! I'm still having a hard time believing that in this election being female is the big deal you claim it to be.


I think you need to ask yourself why other countries have had female heads of state and the United States' - full of all those progressive and assertive women - has the record it does of female presidents and vice presidents.

[aruna]

I think you need to ask yourself why other countries have had female heads of state and the United States' - full of all those progressive and assertive women - has the record it does of female presidents and vice presidents.

I've always assumed you just haven't had the right woman up to now. I've never really thought about it.

[HeronW]

Hussein is a common name on this south side of the pond and King Hussein was a decent fellow. Would anyone one object to being called Tim or Timothy (McVeigh) like the home-grown Oklahoma City bomber? Or should Terry (Nichols) be purged from all name bases? How about Eric (Harris) and Deren (Kleebold)? We can omit all names of psychoes but what does that say about us?

[eldragon]

Hussein is a common name on this south side of the pond and King Hussein was a decent fellow. Would anyone one object to being called Tim or Timothy (McVeigh) like the home-grown Oklahoma City bomber? Or should Terry (Nichols) be purged from all name bases? How about Eric (Harris) and Deren (Kleebold)? We can omit all names of psychoes but what does that say about us?


Timothy and Terry are first names, and common ones at that.

A better example would have been "Dahmer," or "Bundy."

And of course, nobody would give a hoot about electing someone with those names president.

[aruna]

Hussein is a common name on this south side of the pond and King Hussein was a decent fellow. Would anyone one object to being called Tim or Timothy (McVeigh) like the home-grown Oklahoma City bomber? Or should Terry (Nichols) be purged from all name bases? How about Eric (Harris) and Deren (Kleebold)? We can omit all names of psychoes but what does that say about us?

Tim or Terry etc do not correspond to Hussein, America's archenemy (according to Bush) since 9/11. You need a corresponding "Christian" name, a political enemy as against an ordinary criminal. Like Adolph.

If you want to know just how popular Adolph is in the USA and has been since 1945 just type it into the Baby Wizard. (http://babynamewizard.com/namevoyager/lnv0105.html)

We really are entering silly season here.

[RumpleTumbler]

is it inherently racist or otherwise bigoted to use obama's middle name in referring to him and, if so, why?

No, but the only reason folks use it is because they believe it will have a negative impact on the person hearing it.

[Monkey]

Well, Monkey, I can only say that he had the option to change his name if he was worried about it, and I don't think it's right to try to make it a "white" problem now.

I didn't say he should be ashamed of his name or that he should have changed it. I said that how he feels about it wasn't the question. The question was whether or not its usage was racist, and my answer was no, but that I did believe that people were using it to feed into the rather racist misinformation campaign currently being waged against Obama.

Hillary Clinton's sex is right out there in the open, starting with "She. . . ."

This isn't about Hillary. And it's not about hiding things. It's about Obama's middle name and the usage thereof.


people aren't so stupid as to cast him as an American enemy.


It's not a political tool because it's ineffective. It's nothing.


A quick google search proves you wrong. As do all those anonymously circulated E-mails, and the wonks carrying signs and putting fliers on people's windshields at the Obama rally in Corpus. (I was there)

Here's just one example of someone using Barack's middle name in a manner intended to portray him as an enemy of the US:




http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/12/barack_hussein.html


So, even if he identifies strongly as a Christian, and even if he despised the behavior of his father (as Obama said on Oprah); is a man who Muslims think is a Muslim, who feels some sort of psychological need to prove himself to his absent Muslim father, and who is now moving in the direction of his father's heritage, a man we want as President when we are fighting the war of our lives against Islam? Where will his loyalties be?

Is that even the man we'd want to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency, if Hillary Clinton offers him the Vice Presidential candidacy on her ticket (which he certainly wouldn't turn down)?

NO WAY, JOSE . . . Or, is that, HUSSEIN?


Why do you think that last line is there? What were they trying to say? Is this just casual usage, not meant as any sort of insult? Totally innocent?

Give me a break.

[Plot Device]

Hussein is a common name on this south side of the pond and King Hussein was a decent fellow. Would anyone one object to being called Tim or Timothy (McVeigh) like the home-grown Oklahoma City bomber? Or should Terry (Nichols) be purged from all name bases? How about Eric (Harris) and Deren (Kleebold)? We can omit all names of psychoes but what does that say about us?


I have no idea what pond you hail from, (your location says Israel) but in the USA the name Hussein is pretty rare, and there have been only two people named Hussein who have ever achieved any noteriety in the American cultural outlook: the King, and Sadam--no Husseins at all exist anywhere else in American literature, film, politics, or even (for the most part) everyday life. Those two guys are absolutely it as far as the "Hussein-connection" for the overwhelming majority of Americans. So the pool of associations from which Americans are being asked to draw when playing the word-association game with that name is very limited. And of those two associations, guess which one is the more recent, and guess which one is burned more deeply into our hearts--and NOT in a good way.


Timothy? That name is as common as Mark or Gary or Brett. Loads of guys named Tim, Timmy, and Timothy have walked the streets of America, graced the pages of story books, pranced across TV screens, been named in National Enquirer articles about the latest Hollywood gossip, and been half-backs on high school football teams.

Terry? The same can be said of Terry as what I just cited about Timmy.

I have no knowledge of who this Eric Harris guy is that you've mentioned in your post. Although I have known several Erics in my life, the name Eric has (for me) an association with Leif Ericson, one of the first Europeans to discover America, there's Eric Clapton, the female name Erica (a very pretty name) and I've always found the name Eric to be particualrly sexy-sounding.

As for this Deren Kleebold, I again have no idea who you are talking about. But the name "Darren" automatically sums up images of the TV show Betwitched in my mind. I once met a guy named Darren in real life and he bemoaned the fact that everyone mentioned the TV show Bewitched to him. If anything, I've always found the name Darren to be downright comical by virtue of that TV show.

Here's a name to think about: Damien. Have you ever in your life met a guy named Damien? What mother in her right fricking mind would name her son Damien after ALLLL those Anti-Christ movies from the 70's and 80's?? For many years I had absolutely NO OTHER ASSOCIATION with the name Damien EXCEPT the notion that he is the son of Satan. Not one single other TV show or book or movie or hsitorical figure or real life person I had ever met was ever ever ever ever named Damien. And then one day in the late-1990's, I met a young man (who was born back in the late 1970's, so he was born AFTER those films, so his stupid stupid mother has no excuse) who was named Damien. I was stunned! I didn't SAY anything, but he saw my reaction and so he rolled his eyes and said: "Yeah, I get that all the time. I promise you I'm NOT the son of Satan, and I do NOT have a 666 tatooed on my head."


How about Bundy?? --If I ever met someone named Bundy, you better believe my heart would skip a beat. Part of me would TRY to overcome that reaction with rationality and try to not let the poor guy know I was feeling uncomfortable, but I'm sure he would see it in my eyes during that inital introduction. I'm sure he's seen it many times before. And he will see it many more times for the rest of his life (unless he changes his name). The name Bundy has virtualy no other association for most Americans. We don't even need the "Ted" part of his name to GET that association, it's so frigging obvious.

The name Hussein is very peculiar in American culture. The King of years past is only vaguely known by most. But the Sadam of recent events is indelibly etched into our memories. And so, I put forward to you that invoking the name "Hussein" is deliberately invoking no other association but with Saddam. At least in the present-day American outlook.

::ETA::

I was totally shown up by eldragon in Post #151

You never watched Married With Children?

Al and Peg Bundy?

My apologies.

[Jersey Chick]

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were the kids who carried out the Columbine shootings back in the late 90s.

[aruna]

Here's a name to think about: Damien. Have you ever in your life met a guy named Damien? What mother in her right fricking mind would name her son Damien after ALLLL those Anti-Christ movies from the 70's and 80's?? For many years I had absolutely NO OTHER ASSOCIATION with the name Damien EXCEPT the notion that he is the son of Satan.


Two admissions: I know a Damien! He is my ex-best-friend's son, and he must have been born in the early 70's!

And I am totally ignorant of any son-of-Satan connection... didn;t see those movies.

OK, sorry for the derailment.

[William Haskins]

No, but the only reason folks use it is because they believe it will have a negative impact on the person hearing it.

is that correct, though? the "only reason"? wikipedia, encyclopedia brittanica, a biography?

look, i'm not disagreeing that someone who repeats and emphasizes it in a negative context is doing so with an agenda.

but the categorical admonition against using someone's legal name reeks of kneejerk political correctness, and of treating a person (in this case, mr. obama) as a special case.

[Plot Device]

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were the kids who carried out the Columbine shootings back in the late 90s.

Thank you.

I deliberately didn't Google them because I wanted to let the association either percolate to the surface of my memory on its own, or else just let it fall flat. And it fell flat.

To me, the names Harris and Klebold mean nothing. The full weight of that event is carried by the name Columbine. It's Columbine that conjurs the horror for me the association, not the names of those two kids.

[Cranky]

Two admissions: I know a Damien! He is my ex-best-friend's son, and he must have been born in the early 70's!

And I am totally ignorant of any son-of-Satan connection... didn;t see those movies.

OK, sorry for the derailment.

My first real love was named Damien, and he was born after the movie, too.

And no, he wasn't evil, either, but still with the jokes, poor man.

[My-Immortal]

They won't. It's not a political tool because it's ineffective. It's nothing.

It 'should' be 'nothing', but if it is truly 'nothing' wouldn't this be a non-issue? Someone tried to make it 'something' to see if it would work. In most cases, it probably didn't - but I have no doubt that for some it did. It's a matter of intent. Sure, it's his name, it's the truth, but WHY was it said and an emphasis placed upon it's use? Obviously (or to some, perhaps not), some sort of connection was trying to be made. I mean, as we've learned in this thread Haskins' name is (at least, we're assuming he's telling the truth): William Thomas Haskins.

But what if during a speech, some one that didn't like William decided to emphasize certain syllables of his name and utter his last name with a bit of a silent "H".

Ex: Why would any reasonable person take anything a man named:
William ThomAS HASkins seriously? Obviously when his parents named him they wanted to make sure he was the butt of twice as many jokes...

What? There's nothing wrong with that. I was just using his name. Honest. It's his (allegedly) legal name. No big deal. No foul.

Right?

Take care all -

:)

[Jcomp]

is that correct, though? the "only reason"? wikipedia, encyclopedia brittanica, a biography?

look, i'm not disagreeing that someone who repeats and emphasizes it in a negative context is doing so with an agenda.

but the categorical admonition against using someone's legal name reeks of kneejerk political correctness, and of treating a person (in this case, mr. obama) as a special case.

So then you would agree that it's about the context?

And I suppose I'm not sure if it qualifies as "racist" because if it was a white dude named Hussein, someone would try to play that card as well. But I do think it factors in (and will continue to factor in) to the whole "Do you really want this big lipped, African-Arab-name-having Negro running the country? He's going to steal all of your wallets!" factor that is destined to be covertly employed by some of his opponents.

[Bird of Prey]

I didn't say he should be ashamed of his name or that he should have changed it. I said that how he feels about it wasn't the question. The question was whether or not its usage was racist, and my answer was no, but that I did believe that people were using it to feed into the rather racist misinformation campaign currently being waged against Obama.



This isn't about Hillary. And it's not about hiding things. It's about Obama's middle name and the usage thereof.



A quick google search proves you wrong. As do all those anonymously circulated E-mails, and the wonks carrying signs and putting fliers on people's windshields at the Obama rally in Corpus. (I was there)

Here's just one example of someone using Barack's middle name in a manner intended to portray him as an enemy of the US:




http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/12/barack_hussein.html



Why do you think that last line is there? What were they trying to say? Is this just casual usage, not meant as any sort of insult? Totally innocent?

Give me a break.

Yes it is innocent. Because she has a right to question his Islamic affiliation, and she knows very little about Muslims. Is her fear justified? Of course not, but you can't start and end the conversation with Barack Obama as if that's all that matters. I'd venture a guess that aside from Bravo, I've been more vocal about the biased attitude toward Muslims and Islamic countries than perhaps anybody else on PC&E.

If you want the attitude to change, my unsolicited advice would be to stop making his name a point of contention and start talking about what it means to be a member of the world. Education is the best remedy here, not shushing people from using his middle name as if somehow, that's the way to the White House.

And I know that you, personally, are not trying to quiet people, Monkey.

[eldragon]

Posted by Plot Device:

How about Bundy?? --If I ever met someone named Bundy, you better believe my heart would skip a beat. Part of me would TRY to overcome that reaction with rationality and try to not let the poor guy know I was feeling uncomfortable, but I'm sure he would see it in my eyes during that inital introduction. I'm sure he's seen it many times before. And he will see it many more times for the rest of his life (unless he changes his name). The name Bundy has virtualy no other association for most Americans. We don't even need the "Ted" part of his name to GET that association, it's so frigging obvious.

You never watched Married With Children?

Al and Peg Bundy?

[RumpleTumbler]

but the categorical admonition against using someone's legal name reeks of kneejerk political correctness, and of treating a person (in this case, mr. obama) as a special case.

That's true. To go out of your way not to say it is treating him differently.

Just because I don't like Hillary I don't like people saying it because there are people who will allow that to hinder their view.

If it were my name I'd have it changed. If I couldn't have it changed I wouldn't tell people and I'd very embarrassed about it when I did have to tell someone.

It doesn't bother me that his name is Hussein but it carries a negative connotation that people have a hard time getting away from.

I think it would be difficult for most to not associate it negatively.

I can say without absolute certainty that when one of my step-kids got a call when I was married and it said "Saddam Hussein" on the caller ID I was a touch weirded out. :)

[Plot Device]

Two admissions: I know a Damien! He is my ex-best-friend's son, and he must have been born in the early 70's!

And I am totally ignorant of any son-of-Satan connection... didn;t see those movies.

OK, sorry for the derailment.


No worries. This is all culturally contextual (which is the thrust of this whole argument).

Here's is Damien as a sweet little boy from the first movie in 1976 called The Omen.

http://www.horrortalk.com/reviews/TheOmen/OmenPoster.jpg








And here he is at about 12 years old in the second movie called Damien: The Omen II.


http://www.tracksounds.com/images/misc/damien_omenii_big.jpg





And here he is as an adult man running for President in the third movie called The Omen III: The Final Conflict

http://www.musicweb-international.com/film/2001/Dec01/final_conflict.jpg



LUCKY FOR BARACK HIS MIDDLE NAME ISN'T DAMIEN!!!!


.

[Monkey]

look, i'm not disagreeing that someone who repeats and emphasizes it in a negative context is doing so with an agenda.

.

We agree on this. We also agree that there's nothing wrong with using his middle name in a casual context.

Barack's middle name, in itself, is no smear.

But that doesn't mean that the people aren't trying to use it that way. The fault lies, not in the name, but in those who are trying to use it to lend credence to misinformation and to rouse up feelings of fear and hate.

[William Haskins]

So then you would agree that it's about the context?

And I suppose I'm not sure if it qualifies as "racist" because if it was a white dude named Hussein, someone would try to play that card as well. But I do think it factors in (and will continue to factor in) to the whole "Do you really want this big lipped, African-Arab-name-having Negro running the country? He's going to steal all of your wallets!" factor that is destined to be covertly employed by some of his opponents.

i've never argued that it can't be pejorative based on context. the difference between me and some of the holier-than-thous in this thread is that i'm capable of seeing both the use of it as a pejorative and as a legitimate employment of specific and accurate language.

some others, however, see it as a (pardon the pun) black and white issue, holding that, since some might use it to insult or inflame, any use of it must necessarily be for that purpose.

and i think that's bullshit.

[Cranky]

We agree on this. We also agree that there's nothing wrong with using his middle name in a casual context.

Barack's middle name, in itself, is no smear.

But that doesn't mean that the people aren't trying to use it that way. The fault lies, not in the name, but in those who are trying to use it to lend credence to misinformation and to rouse up feelings of fear and hate.

YES. Exactly! It's taken us six pages to get to here?! *facepalm*

[Plot Device]

Posted by Plot Device:



You never watched Married With Children?

Al and Peg Bundy?


I never watched it (not my thing), but I am aware of it and I'm also aware that the TV has had a strong and lasting cultural impact.

So I totally totally stand corrected there. The name Bundy DOES have another association from which people can draw.

[xhouseboy]

Yes. Great Britain is a very different culture imo.

You may be right.

But judging by some of the things I've read over here, the British press (left and right) simply don't like Hillary as a person.

Some of the comments, from memory.... 'arrogantly assumed that all she had to do was turn up and the nomination was hers...'

'... believes her time spent as first lady somehow qualifies her for the job. But if I'm going in for heart surgery, I hope to God the surgeon's wife isn't going to be operating on me...'

[eldragon]

Or, the surgeon's husband, for that matter.

[My-Immortal]

Or, the surgeon's husband, for that matter.

Or some would say the surgeon's son...

[Jcomp]

i've never argued that it can't be pejorative based on context. the difference between me and some of the holier-than-thous in this thread is that i'm capable of seeing both the use of it as a pejorative and as a legitimate employment of specific and accurate language.

some others, however, see it as a (pardon the pun) black and white issue, holding that, since some might use it to insult or inflame, any use of it must necessarily be for that purpose.

and i think that's bullshit.

And I would agree. However, when you ask...

so, if a republican in the campaign uses his middle name, even without inflection or attendant commentary, it's a dirty trick...

I mean, that's a matter of willingness to give someone benefit of the doubt. And given the nature of politics and the culture of winning at all costs, I'd be inclined to say yes.

[Monkey]

Yes it is innocent.

You must be operating from a different meaning of the word "innocent".

This is a woman who's claimed to have done her research, basically saying that Obama may be a secret muslim who would feel torn between his religion and America, should he become president. She emphasizes this by ending her peice with his middle name in ALL CAPS.


If you want the attitude to change, my unsolicited advice would be to stop making his name a point of contention and start talking about what it means to be a member of the world.

Combating misinformation isn't the same as starting it. And I have no problem with Barack Hussein Obama's name. But I'm not blind to the fact that some people are trying to use it to spread fear-mongering, lend credence to misinformation, and sway the ignorant.


Education is the best remedy here, not shushing people from using his middle name as if somehow, that's the way to the White House.

Yes, education is the remedy. That's why people are still discussing the name issue. As I've said, there's a difference between spreading misinformation (based on a name or anything else) and combating it.

[Plot Device]

When you re-do the casting of someone's name to your liking, you're being passive agressive and manipulative. Period.

Hillary Rodham-Clinton can certainly attest to that.

[Bird of Prey]

All I can say, Monkey, is that there is nothing inherently wrong with being a Muslim man or woman, and that's really the crux of the issue. And to me, Obama's wife is being something of an ethnocentrist by making these remarks as if there is actually some negative connotation associated with his name. And if Michelle Obama were sincere in her liberal stance, she would simply have said, "Yes, that's my husband's name. It's a good name. It's too bad a rotten guy had use of it for awhile."

[Perks]

i'm capable of seeing both the use of it as a pejorative and as a legitimate employment of specific and accurate language.

Specific because it erases the possibility of confusion with all the other Barack Obamas?

I don't know if I'm one of the holier-than-thous. I hope not. I certainly don't feel that way. I feel frustrated.

Objectively, you are absolutely correct. His full name could be used both ways. Can you point to an instance during this campaign where Senator Obama has been referred to as Barack Hussein Obama that is a good example of the second use you've cited? Especially in light of the fact that's not what his banners, promotional literature, or bylines name him and that none of the other front-running candidates have been referenced by their full legal names as any matter of course?

[Plot Device]

Anyone who pretends (and there are many arrogant and bold-faced pretenders in this thread) that when the PREFERRED rendering of a person's name is ignored and substituted by an uninvited re-rendering --pretends that such a move does NOT have a profound and negative impact on everyone concerned, he or she is being intellectually dishonest.

And with that I leave this thread, and have a permanently unfavorable view of several posters in it.

[Bird of Prey]

Remember when "Dubya" was considered a slam? It was used to make fun of George W. Bush, and of the stereotypical backwoods Bush supporter who was too lazy to trouble himself with the correct pronunciation of the letter W.

Soon after we on the left started calling him Dubya, the right picked it up and used it as a term of endearment. Took the sting right out of the insult.

This leads me to the name Barack Hussein Obama. A couple of ideas come to mind:

One, we have nothing to fear from the use of Barack's full name by those on the right who seek to belittle him, or us.

What is the first thing most people think of when they hear the name Hussein? Why Saddam Hussein, of course. The man we went into Iraq to dispose of. Oh, and we were going to dispose of the WMDs while we were there, too. But there were no WMDs, and Saddam is dead, and we're still in Iraq! By the way, whose idea was it to lead us into the worst foreign policy disaster in the country's history? It was the Republican president's idea. "Hussein" reminds of Republican failure, not Democratic shame.

And when they hear the name Osama, which happens to rhyme with the last name of our candidate? Most people don't hear Osama's name much from the right anymore. It embarrasses Republicans, because there was this whole dead or alive, I'm not too concerned with Osama bin Laden flip-flop from the Republican president, and meanwhile, the right likes to keep reminding voters of 9/11 ... the 9/11 that Osama bin Laden was responsible for, and by the way, what ever happened to hunting that guy down and finishing him?

Barack Hussein Obama. The name reminds us twice that Dubya, whose foreign policy John McCain publicly embraces on a daily basis, has been a complete and utterly apathetic, morally divested, unredeemable failure. And that's putting it kindly.

We need to embrace, celebrate and own the name Barack Hussein Obama. Let "Hussein" be the F to the left of Kennedy, the Delano befo' Roosevelt. Barry's full name should be chanted proudly,

Barack Hussein Obama,
Barack Hussein Obama,
Barack Hussein Obama,

until no one on the right ever wants to say or hear that combination of names again!. . . .http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4806599

[TheGaffer]

then would you not agree that objecting to its use by automatically assuming it's done malevolently is equally infantile?


1. I think it's infantile when people of the Rush Limbaugh type use it, and say it with emphasis. You can't tell me there isn't an intent there to try to associate him with Arabs or Muslims and create fear or distaste in the ears of some. So when I hear it from the mouth of someone in the Glenn Beck realm of thinking, for damned sure I believe he's saying this with an intent to try to create a perception of someone.

1A. That doesn't mean I think it's not infantile. It is. And it doesn't affect me. Will it affect others? Who knows. Either way, if you're making your election decision on Obama's middle name, you've got problems. It's worse than choosing a favorite football team based on the helmets.

2. You can't assume it has malevolent intent - such as if he is sworn in as president, and the fact that he has this name and someone uses it does not mean it has such intent. (And while many were commonly known by their full names, very few people referred to the three guys after Nixon as Gerald Rudolph Ford, James Earl Carter, or Ronald Wilson Reagan. Many presidents were well known for middle names, indeed -- FDR, Harry S Truman (the S didn't even stand for anything) Dwight David Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ. I'd even throw William Jefferson Clinton into the mix.

[Monkey]

All I can say, Monkey, is that there is nothing inherently wrong with being a Muslim man or woman, and that's really the crux of the issue.

I don't think it is. Everyone in this thread has pretty much stated that there's nothing inherently wrong with Obama's name. I see the crux of the issue as the *use* of the name, and the reasons behind that use.


And to me, Obama's wife is being something of an ethnocentrist by making these remarks as if there is actually some negative connotation associated with his name.

There's not necessarily any negative connotation *inherent* in the name; but the name is most definitely being *given* negative connotation by some who are using it to increase fear and lend credence to misinformation.

I'm really feeling like a broken record and tiring of this conversation.

[William Haskins]

1. I think it's infantile when people of the Rush Limbaugh type use it, and say it with emphasis. You can't tell me there isn't an intent there to try to associate him with Arabs or Muslims and create fear or distaste in the ears of some. So when I hear it from the mouth of someone in the Glenn Beck realm of thinking, for damned sure I believe he's saying this with an intent to try to create a perception of someone.

1A. That doesn't mean I think it's not infantile. It is. And it doesn't affect me. Will it affect others? Who knows. Either way, if you're making your election decision on Obama's middle name, you've got problems. It's worse than choosing a favorite football team based on the helmets.

2. You can't assume it has malevolent intent - such as if he is sworn in as president, and the fact that he has this name and someone uses it does not mean it has such intent. (And while many were commonly known by their full names, very few people referred to the three guys after Nixon as Gerald Rudolph Ford, James Earl Carter, or Ronald Wilson Reagan. Many presidents were well known for middle names, indeed -- FDR, Harry S Truman (the S didn't even stand for anything) Dwight David Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ. I'd even throw William Jefferson Clinton into the mix.

completely agree with everything you've said here.

again, my point is this: those who use his name to implicitly insult him, insult islam or imply that he is a muslim or a terrorist sympathizer are wrong and should be called on it.

but the very act of using his middle name does not mean that the person is doing that, and it runs counter to my philosophical views on language to indulge a social prohibition on using it.

it's similar to the flap of his drug use. he admitted to it and yet there are those who automatically view it as a racist tactic to discuss it—when the same was obviously not true of discussion of clinton or bush's drug use or for that matter douglas ginsberg.

[Jcomp]

completely agree with everything you've said here.

again, my point is this: those who use his name to implicitly insult him, insult islam or imply that he is a muslim or a terrorist sympathizer are wrong and should be called on it.

but the very act of using his middle name does not mean that the person is doing that, and it runs counter to my philosophical views on language to indulge a social prohibition on using it.

it's similar to the flap of his drug use. he admitted to it and yet there are those who automatically view it as a racist tactic to discuss it—when the same was obviously not true of discussion of clinton or bush's drug use or for that matter douglas ginsberg.

Well, there'll be people who see racism in everything. If he's elected president, no matter what decision he makes, if it's criticized, even if rightfully, you'll have somebody crying racism.

I think that one of the positive things that he can do for race relations in America, which he hasn't yet because he's still courting the black vote believe it or not, is giving people pride enough to understand that you don't have to cry racism at every slight. Sometimes it's a valid criticism, or the person thinks it is even if it isn't, and other times it's just that the person doesn't like YOU, not necessarily concerned with your race or ethnicity. And sometimes people are, in fact, actually racist, but when you lump it all under the "you're just bigoted" banner it desensitizes people and makes them think you're crying wolf when actual incidents of racism arise.

[Jersey Chick]

One of the only times I've ever heard Ronald Reagan referred to by his full name was someone making the comparion that each name had six letters, thus making him 666.

Just a slight derailment -

now back to our regularly scheduled debate :)

[RumpleTumbler]

One of the only times I've ever heard Ronald Reagan referred to by his full name was someone making the comparion that each name had six letters, thus making him 666.

Bill Gates name is 666 in hexadecimal. That's much more exciting than just 6 letters.

:e2tongue:

[eldragon]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080229/us_time/whyisobamasmiddlenametaboo


Why here is an article about the name Hussein right now.

[Bravo]

for someone who positions himself as a bridge between islam and the west, obama has utterly failed to create a dialogue about this.

i absolutely believe the use of his name by the right-wing is an attempt to denigrate him and an attempt to instill fear, but obama should be declaring that there is absolutely nothing wrong with his name and there is absolutely nothing wrong with his heritage and that this entire thing is offensive to muslims.

[Bartholomew]

Someone could use Obama's full name in an attempt to make the obvious phonetic associations with him, Saddam, and Osama--but that tactic comes right out of a third-grader's playbook.

[Monkey]

The issue is context, as in another thread where you called me "friend".

[aruna]

Eight pages, to return to page one arguments. Sigh.

[RumpleTumbler]

that this entire thing is offensive to muslims.

They would be much more apt to speak up about this than they would one of their own blowing up a school bus loaded with kids.

After all, this is really offensive.

[Bartholomew]

The issue is context, as in another thread where you called me "friend".

Exactly.

Or am I, like, eight pages too late?

[tammieofmi]

On the Hillary thing - Its simple - she dropped it because a lot of average folks (meaning voters) and women included thought it was a silly argument. At the age she was, and not know what she wanted to be called? And running with her husband I think many thought there were bigger issues to be concerned about.

Then again - I would be hard pressed to say anything positive about any Clinton.

[sandyn]

Ok. *sighs* At the risk of becoming the butt of jokes yet again--jokes I've tried desperately to put behind me--I am going to tell a short story about how a name can haunt a person:

My maiden name was Cockayne. Got mispronounced all the time. The correct pronunciation is the same as the infamous drug--I don't think I have to say which one. My entire senior year of high school was made nearly intolerable by one smartass girl who, on the first day of school that year while role was being called in one of the classes, waved her hand and innocently asked, "Isn't that a dope?"

Well, guess what I got called for the remainder of the year.

Thankfully once I got married, I lost the name; however, I pity my five brothers who must carry it to the grave.

So, back to the question of the original poster. Using someone's full name, while not necessarily wrong in and of itself, can harm a person when it is used against them intentionally. While I don't necessarily back O'man, remember that he did not name himself... I agree he should not shy away from the name, nor should he have to 'defend' himself against ignorant people. However, there is no shortage of those, so unfortunately he will have to take the heat.

But to say people will 'confuse' him with a dead Iraqi dictator simply because they have a name in common is rather ridiculous, IMHO.

[SC Harrison]

but the very act of using his middle name does not mean that the person is doing that, and it runs counter to my philosophical views on language to indulge a social prohibition on using it.



I understand where you're coming from William, but will you at least accept that a large percentage of people who use his middle name (written or spoken) are doing so to perpetuate the fear and anger that have become associated with the name?

You're concerned about an attack on language itself regardless of intent and context, and I can respect and get behind that. But there is also (I believe) a threat to our sociological fabric, and fear is the single biggest element of that threat.

We should identify and vilify those who would perpetuate fear merely for the results it can produce, and if language can be used as a tool to spread fear, it can also be used to shine a light on the fearmongers.

[eldragon]

Geez, Sandyn, that's awful.


And I thought my maiden name was bad : Ricketts.

[sandyn]

Hey, Pam. Welcome to the 'bad name' club...:welcome:

And we're not the only ones, by a long shot.

[Bird of Prey]

for someone who positions himself as a bridge between islam and the west, obama has utterly failed to create a dialogue about this.

i absolutely believe the use of his name by the right-wing is an attempt to denigrate him and an attempt to instill fear, but obama should be declaring that there is absolutely nothing wrong with his name and there is absolutely nothing wrong with his heritage and that this entire thing is offensive to muslims.


Thank you. If it's really an issue with more than a fringe, I think he should be glad to address it on exactly that basis, Bravo. Absolutely.

Bravo!!

[William Haskins]

i've been informed that i'm selling out common sense in my zeal to present obama as the devil. so i am going to bow out of this and other political discussions for a while.

i'd like to thank everyone for the stimulating discussion.

[eldragon]

Hey, Pam. Welcome to the 'bad name' club...:welcome:

And we're not the only ones, by a long shot.


Yeah, well, I was mostly called "Ricketts Crickets."

My married name has five syllables and nobody can pronounce it, therefore it's really hard to make fun of!

[Bird of Prey]

i've been informed that i'm selling out common sense in my zeal to present obama as the devil. so i am going to bow out of this and other political discussions for a while.

i'd like to thank everyone for the stimulating discussion.

Your common sense is intact.

[RumpleTumbler]

An unseen force is cleansing the thread.

*hides under desk with tinfoil hat*

[Bird of Prey]

i've been informed that i'm selling out common sense in my zeal to present obama as the devil. so i am going to bow out of this and other political discussions for a while.

i'd like to thank everyone for the stimulating discussion.

I'd like to add that nobody with a half a brain thinks you're presenting Obama as the devil.

That niche is reserved for me.

[TheGaffer]

completely agree with everything you've said here.

again, my point is this: those who use his name to implicitly insult him, insult islam or imply that he is a muslim or a terrorist sympathizer are wrong and should be called on it.


Exactly.

And there are certain people in this world who, if they use the name, are, by virtue of their own history, most likely using it as a way to implicitly insult him.

Glenn Beck, for example. It's going to take me about 134 leaps of faith for me to get anywhere near the idea that he'd be serious in "just using his name."

but the very act of using his middle name does not mean that the person is doing that, and it runs counter to my philosophical views on language to indulge a social prohibition on using it.

Exactly.
it's similar to the flap of his drug use. he admitted to it and yet there are those who automatically view it as a racist tactic to discuss it—when the same was obviously not true of discussion of clinton or bush's drug use or for that matter douglas ginsberg.

True as well.

[TheGaffer]

Ok. *sighs* At the risk of becoming the butt of jokes yet again--jokes I've tried desperately to put behind me--I am going to tell a short story about how a name can haunt a person:

My maiden name was Cockayne. Got mispronounced all the time. The correct pronunciation is the same as the infamous drug--I don't think I have to say which one.

So you're the one Clapton is singing about. Nice.

[Robert Toy]

http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/analysis/toons/2008/02/28/mitchell/index.html

[SC Harrison]

i've been informed that i'm selling out common sense in my zeal to present obama as the devil. so i am going to bow out of this and other political discussions for a while.

i'd like to thank everyone for the stimulating discussion.

Actually, you'd be selling out common sense to leave for such a paltry reason. ;)

[Monkey]

Sandyn,

A girl at my son's school has the last name Skank. She's a volleyball player; all the girls are called by their number and their last name, which is written just over the number.

Don't feel too bad. :D

[Robert Toy]

While working at Airbus here in France we had a senior reliability engineer name Peter Fuck (German), you should have seen the faces of people in the U.S. when he gave them his business card during his trips to the various vendors.

While not a real common name there are a number of them.

http://www.unb.br/ig/prof/ReinhardtAdolfoFuck.htm

[NikeeGoddess]

no freakin' way am i going through eight pages of this LOL!!!

anyhoo - i think i know why she dropped Rodham.
usually professional women keep their surname (notice this is not her real middle name which could be Marie or something) as their middle name to make sure people know she is an individual first and a wife second.

i think maybe (and i'm just guessing really) after the lewinsky scandal was over and done with, she wanted to rededicate or reinforce or whatever the word might be her devotion to her marriage to billy-the-thrilly. ;)

[maestrowork]

I guess I should tell you guys my middle names are Mao, Stalin and Adolf.

[chartreuse]

I voted yes, and here's why.

How many of you, off the top of your head, know what Dennis Kucinich's middle name is? Mitt Romney's? John McCain's? John Edwards?

Across the board, I haven't a clue.

But we all know Barack Obama's middle name. Why? Because it has been repeated ad nauseum. And the people repeating it, emphasizing it, again and again and again, are doing so because they hope to cater to, yes, the bigotry and racism that they apparently believe is present in the American people. The same folks using his middle name all the time have also repeatedly "mistakenly" said "Osama" instead of "Obama."

They want us to think that Barack Obama is one of "them." You know, one of the "muzzies."

And there's your confirmation, the reason that using his middle name is, indeed, bigoted. Because the people using it actually believe that there is something wrong with being a Muslim. And each night before they go to bed, they say a little prayer that you are just as ignorant as they are.

[Voyager]

Nation of Islam is a religion, not a race, so I don't get it.

[Cranky]

Nation of Islam is a religion, not a race, so I don't get it.

Also a common Arabic name. There's your bigotry. *shrugs*

I can't believe this has gone on so long, and now I'm kicking myself for bumping it up.

Ah wells. :D

[William Haskins]

just to update the style guide on when, if ever, it's okay to invoke obama's middle name, apparently it's okay when he wants to capitalize on it for political purposes to show how down he'd be with the muslim world.

(for everyone else, you're still a racist muslim-hating bigot if you say it)

"It's conceivable that there are those in the Arab world who say to themselves, 'This is a guy who spent some time in the Muslim world, has a middle name of Hussein and appears more worldly and has called for talks with people, and so he's not going to be engaging in the same sort of cowboy diplomacy as George Bush,'" Obama said in an interview with The Atlantic.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/05/13/2008-05-13_barack_obama_understands_hamas_view.html

[Williebee]

Replace "Hussein" with "Adolph", "Hitler", "Mengele", "Manson",

and you get similar effects. So...

Racist, maybe not. Otherwise bigoted. Sure.

ADDED LATER: And yes, apparently I am 9 pages too late for this. duh.

[blacbird]

Not "inherently". But context matters. Is the person using Obama's middle name perhaps emphasizing it, with the perceptible intent of emphasizing the Arabic origin of it? And don't gimme none o' that "you don't know" crap. If, on Jan. 20, 2009, Supreme Court Justice John Roberts administers the Oath of Office, and says, "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear," that's different from Glenn Beck repeatedly referring to Obama in scathing commentary, with emphasis, as "Barack HUSSEIN Obama".

It's not any different from a whole lot of other appellations that can be applied neutrally, affectionately, or insultingly. Depends on the circumstances and the intent.

So, let me issue another take on this: Would anybody be using Barack Obama's middle name, or even asking this question, if that middle name was Robert or James or John or Charles?

I'd venture not. Wouldn't be a whiff of an issue. I don't even know what John McCain's middle name is, as a for instance.

caw

[cethklein]

The name itself is not racist, but the tone in which it has been used certainly is.

This. I've found most people using it ARE doing it to be bigoted. You'll notice that most of the time when they say it, they emphasize the Hussein part. Or when they type it, they capitalize, like "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" (We had a user here who was doing that awhile back actually.)

Most all presidents are often referred to by their middle names (some exceptions, I don't think Reagan really ever was, nor was Carter.) But Bill Clinton was often called "William Jefferson Clinton (at least when he was on being accused of something.) But like Clinton, their middle names were almost always used in specific cases and not always. (Initials are used a lot though.)

The Hussein thing has lost a lot of merit though. It's probably the one good thing to come out of Reverend Wright-gate. After all that, the one thing people can't do is paint Obama as a Muslim now (although some will still try.)

So no, his middle name isn't racist, but the tone it is often used in is. That's the difference as IG said.

[POPASMOKE]

Lest everyone forget. It was not the democratic party or the republican party, or the news media that named Barack Hussein Obama.

It was his parents. If anyone should, or needs to "embrace" the name, it's Barak himself.

[mscelina]

The specific poster who was calling Obama "HUSSEIN Obama" had a very particular political agenda. He was trying to play off of the perceived American fear of terrorists and using Obama's name (transparently) in an attempt to sway public opinion.

Unfortunately for this poster, most of the people in P&CE are smarter than that.

Unfortunately for us, it does work on people like my parents--who are convinced that Obama is a Muslim and that (1) because he won't display the American flag (2) because his wife said she had a reason to be proud of America at last and (3) because of his association with Reverend Wright--

he is a terrorist involved in a massive plot to overtake the American government.

*shrug*

I can't argue with them; they don't listen to me. But as a TACTIC, politically, it does have an impact. IMO, people who emphasize Obama's name are doing so in an attempt to benefit POLITICALLY from the ignorance of segments of our population. It ain't pretty...but there's my take on it.

[blacbird]

Lest everyone forget. It was not the democratic party or the republican party, or the news media that named Barak Hussein Obama.

It was his parents. If anyone should, or needs to "embrace" the name, it's Barak himself.

He's never tried to hide it, as far as I know. He's only objected to people using it in a pejorative and misleading way. Oh, and his first name is spelled "Barack", as you'll find in any newspaper, magazine or internet article on the election.

caw

[Elwood]

no offence meant here but perhaps there was one alternative missed like the who gives a shit one. That would be me. I do not care what the hell the man's name is but the following is spot on.

so, since mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a middle name that might be construed by some in a negative light, people should treat him as a special case and not mention it?

one could argue that mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a skin tone and hair texture that might be construed by some in a negative light. is it then racist or otherwise bigoted to show a picture of him?

I would answer, well I am answering, no and no! Great post interesting topic, thanks!

[POPASMOKE]

He's never tried to hide it, as far as I know. He's only objected to people using it in a pejorative and misleading way. Oh, and his first name is spelled "Barack", as you'll find in any newspaper, magazine or internet article on the election.

caw

I stand corrected. :e2tomato:

[William Haskins]

Emily Nordling has never met a Muslim, at least not to her knowledge. But this spring, Ms. Nordling, a 19-year-old student from Fort Thomas, Ky., gave herself a new middle name on Facebook.com (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/facebook_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org), mimicking her boyfriend and shocking her father.

“Emily Hussein Nordling,” her entry now reads.

With her decision, she joined a growing band of supporters of Senator Barack Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, who are expressing solidarity with him by informally adopting his middle name.

The result is a group of unlikely-sounding Husseins: Jewish and Catholic, Hispanic and Asian and Italian-American, from Jaime Hussein Alvarez of Washington, D.C., to Kelly Hussein Crowley of Norman, Okla., to Sarah Beth Hussein Frumkin of Chicago.

Jeff Strabone of Brooklyn now signs credit card receipts with his newly assumed middle name, while Dan O’Maley of Washington, D.C., jiggered his e-mail account so his name would appear as “D. Hussein O’Maley.” Alex Enderle made the switch online along with several other Obama volunteers from Columbus, Ohio, and now friends greet him that way in person, too.

Mr. Obama is a Christian, not a Muslim. Hussein is a family name inherited from a Kenyan father he barely knew, who was born a Muslim and died an atheist. But the name has become a political liability. Some critics on cable television talk shows dwell on it, while others, on blogs or in e-mail messages, use it to falsely assert that Mr. Obama is a Muslim or, more fantastically, a terrorist.

“I am sick of Republicans pronouncing Barack Obama’s name like it was some sort of cuss word,” Mr. Strabone wrote in a manifesto titled “We Are All Hussein” that he posted on his own blog and on dailykos.com (http://dailykos.com/).
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/us/politics/29hussein.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1214701707-QfzFFZCjZcKoqw2tDqWHAQ

[Haggis]

I think the motives of people who would call him Hussein should be examined.

Would people call Hillary, Rodham?

Would people call McCain, Sidney?

Would people call Bush, Walker (Texas Ranger) ?

No they wouldn't.

Why would people call Obama Hussein unless they wanted to denigrate him in some way?

I think his skin tone has nothing to do with anything. He is s good looking guy who takes a pride in his appearance. Pictures of him are totally irrelevant to the discussion of his name.

Lloyd Bentson certainly referred to J. DANFORTH Quayle derisively.

[Cranky]

http://www.movieforum.com/people/makers/stanleykubrick/images/spartacus.jpg

[InfinityGoddess]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/us/politics/29hussein.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1214701707-QfzFFZCjZcKoqw2tDqWHAQ


I saw that as I was going through Huffington Post, and thought that was such a cute story that I would have posted it, but then you beat me to the punch.

"Hussein" is actually a nice name.

[William Haskins]

yes the whole thing's quite precious.

[blacbird]

This question completely depends on the intent of the user. And usually, from the instances I've seen, it's a blatant attempt to connect Obama subliminally with Islam and the Middle East. I challenge anybody to deny that.

The only reason anyone uses George Walker Bush's middle name is to distinguish him from his father, George Herbert Walker Bush. Nobody gave a rat's about Bill Clinton's or Al Gore's middle name; I don't even know what Al Gore's middle name is. Ditto Michael Dukakis or Robert Dole or Ross Perot or Ron Paul or Mitt Romney (hell, most people don't even know what his first name is) or Mike Huckabee or Joe Biden or Christopher Dodd or Rudy Giuliani or any of the other also-rans in this years Presidential races. Barack Obama's middle name only surfaces because it is of Middle Eastern origin and can be associated with Islam in the minds of uneducated morons. I don't know what John McCain's middle name is, and don't have any particular interest even in looking it up; I'm sure some savant will now tell me.

My middle name is Lee. Does that associate me with Koreans or Chinese or Southern Confederates?

This question is complete bullshite, and, frankly, beneath you, William.

caw

[Don]

The only reason anyone uses George Walker Bush's middle name is to distinguish him from his father, George Herbert Walker Bush.
caw

GHW Bush is the one with the middle name worth noting. Study up a while on George Herbert Walker, his namesake. Interesting links to Germany in the 30's.

[William Haskins]

This question is complete bullshite, and, frankly, beneath you, William.

caw

why do people keep saying things are beneath me... weird.

anyway, the question itself is old news now.

the "we're all husseins now" movement that resurrected this thread takes it into the absurd, anyway.

[blacbird]

why do people keep saying things are beneath me... weird.

Be this a protest that nothing is beneath you, Will?

You know I think better of you than that.

caw

[Jersey Chick]

Actually, wasn't Ross Perot - H. Ross Perot? Anyone know what the H stood for? Hey, maybe it was Hussein?!?

i'm too tired and too frickin' lazy to look it up, so I'm going with Hussein.

[blacbird]

Actually, wasn't Ross Perot - H. Ross Perot? Anyone know what the H stood for?

Dam. You're right. I had completely forgot. Which illustrates even more vividly how stupid the rhetoric about Barack Obama's middle name is, doesn't it?

Maybe we should start a poll for H. Ross Perot's first name:

1. Herman
2. Harold
3. Hussein
4. Harvey
6. Henry
7. Other (specify)

caw

[Gravity]

(snip)...the "we're all husseins now" movement that resurrected this thread takes it into the absurd, anyway.

Very true. And on that same note, "All your base are belong to us."

[Inkdaub]

The only time it's a problem is when there is a line-up presented as such...

John McCain
Hillary Clinton
George Bush
Bill Richardson
Barack Hussein Obama
Joe Lieberman
Wesley Snipes
Santa Clause
etc...

[William Haskins]

the funny thing is that, if this really takes off, no one in the mainstream will know that barack's middle name is hussein, and yet they'll keep hearing about how his supporters have all adopted the name.

"the guys got some interesting ideas, nancy, but all his supporters are wearing name tags that say 'hussein'... i don't know what the hell it means, but it's giving me the creeps..."

[Plot Device]

Here's a post I made at William back on Page 3 of this thread in February on the evening this thread was first launched.


A person's name is universally seen as THEIR name, and the utterance of that name is always an encroachment onto their identity, and the distortion of that name is always an assault against their identitiy. A person's name is to be uttererd according to their prefernce, just ask Ellen Degeneres about that. That's NOT an opinion of mine, it's FACT that any kindergarten teacher can explain to you as well as any Psych 101 professor. You're just PRETEDNING that you don't see this and I'm finding you downright childish right now via your feigning of inocence.

Your OP asked if it was racist. I voted no. But the current situation of various media commentators making underhanded and allusive associations between Obama and BOTH of the most hated men in recent US memory is sure as hell anatgonistic. And you are again only pretending that it's all nonsense. You're too smart NOT to see this, and I can't believe you would stoop to this kind of make-believe feigning of inocence. My opinion of you has been greatly diminished in the past hour.





And here's what blacbird posted just today.


This question completely depends on the intent of the user. And usually, from the instances I've seen, it's a blatant attempt to connect Obama subliminally with Islam and the Middle East. I challenge anybody to deny that.


[...]

This question is complete bullshite, and, frankly, beneath you, William.

caw






And here's my response to blacbird:


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif




.

[donroc]

Now if Barack had been spelled Barak, the bigots might be assuming he is Jewish. Hmmm, is the c there to throw us off? ;)

[Perks]

I have already stated my opinion about how I see the manipulation of Barack Obama's middle name.

That said, a bunch of people adding 'Hussein' to their names is just weird. It makes it sound like shaving your head in solidarity with cancer patients and I think that's at a bit crossed purposes from what they want to say about Hussein being his middle name.

[SHBueche]

Isn't OJ's name, Orenthal James, not Owen James? Anyway, to me using Hussein isn't overtly racist, but as one poster pointed out the Obama/Osama connection is a little obvious.

[shawkins]

You guys remember the astronaut Virgil Ivan Grissom, right. No?

How about Gus Grissom?

When Grissom was selected for the Apollo program a conscious decision was made to not use his first name (not masculine enough) nor his middle name (Russian associations).

I'm convinced that the strategy of repeating Obama's middle name is a conscious effort to create an association in the minds of consumers voters between Obama and Scary Middle Eastern Persons Of Dubious Skin Tone.

Having said that, it is his middle name. It's a legitimate, if sleazy, tactic.

[Perks]

Persons Of Dubious Skin Tone.

God how I wish one stinking member of my ancestral pool had been able to seduce someone of dubious skin tone. I'm tired of looking like a larva.

[Jenan Mac]

so, since mr obama, through sheer circumstance of ancestry has a middle name that might be construed by some in a negative light, people should treat him as a special case and not mention it?

Special case my Aunt Fanny.
Quick-- what's Rudy Giuliani's middle name? Bill Richardson's? John Roberts's? Claire McCaskill's? Why didn't the right wing commentators go after Hillary DIANE Rodham Clinton (who is obviously a French sympathizer, with a middle name like that)? How come no political pundits ever mentioned MCCain's middle name (Sidney) only started appearing when people decided to make capital off Obama's?

[Jenan Mac]

Lloyd Bentson certainly referred to J. DANFORTH Quayle derisively.

It's not like he was using the J. part. Since he was going by "Dan", the Danforth is pretty germane. Though I agree, making fun of names is a pretty childish political tactic, across the board.

[dmytryp]

Jenan, have younoticed the dates on the posts you quoted? This is old news

[donroc]

Like Tricky Dicky?
Slick Willy?

[Jenan Mac]

Now if Barack had been spelled Barak, the bigots might be assuming he is Jewish. Hmmm, is the c there to throw us off? ;)


Better start looking at connections to those Bilderberg folks.

[Jenan Mac]

Jenan, have you noticed the dates on the posts you quoted? This is old news


Um...well...not until after I posted it.

[Jersey Chick]

Okay - I looked it up - (though I doubt anyone cares by now)

The H in H. Ross Perot is for Henry.

How boring.

[Robert Toy]

Okay - I looked it up - (though I doubt anyone cares by now)

The H in H. Ross Perot is for Henry.

How boring.
Did you notice his Mother's name? LuLu May.