Mansion 'mistake' piles the pressure on Barack Obama

[William Haskins]

A British-Iraqi billionaire lent millions of dollars to Barack Obama's fundraiser just weeks before an imprudent land deal that has returned to haunt the presidential contender, an investigation by The Times discloses.

The money transfer raises the question of whether funds from Nadhmi Auchi, one of Britain’s wealthiest men, helped Mr Obama buy his mock Georgian mansion in Chicago.

A company related to Mr Auchi, who has a conviction for corruption in France, registered the loan to Mr Obama's bagman Antoin "Tony" Rezko on May 23 2005. Mr Auchi says the loan, through the Panamanian company Fintrade Services SA, was for $3.5 million.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3433485.ece?token=null&offset=0

[SpookyWriter]

I thought this was going to be about "Charles Manson". I can see how his influence peddling could become helter skelter.

[odocoileus]

At first I thought, none of this will stick.

But it's an Arab businessman, so the O'man will lose a little blood over this one.

[Bird of Prey]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3433485.ece?token=null&offset=0


So the waters get murkier. No wonder the Republicans have been so desperate to get Hillary out of the race.

[NikeeGoddess]

just proves he like any other politician. as time passes so will the skeleton emerge from his closet. too bad for him that the election is so far away.

we've already seen how so many years has released the hounds on hillary's skeletons. she's already seasoned for the attacks that will come any candidate that threatens a gop's chances of winning... well McCain, that is.

[billythrilly7th]

So the waters get murkier. No wonder the Republicans have been so desperate to get Hillary out of the race.

Yeah, this must be why.

Excellent analysis as always, BoP.


:rolleyes:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/26/schneider.poll/

The USA Today-Gallup poll asked Republicans which Democrat would McCain have a better chance of beating.

The answer: Clinton 66 percent, Obama 18 percent.


All three national polls asked voters the electability question in a general election matchup.

They show Clinton in a dead heat with McCain -- both coming in with 46 percent.

Obama, meanwhile, leads McCain by seven points -- 49 to 42 percent.

Yep, we just are desperate to get Hillary out of the race so we can beat Obama and win the White House.

:rolleyes:

[William Haskins]

Before he bought his South Side mansion in 2005, Sen. Barack Obama took his friend and fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko on a tour of the premises to make sure it was a good deal, Obama's campaign revealed Monday.

Weeks after saying he'd answered all questions about his controversial dealings with the now-indicted Rezko, Obama released new details about their purchase of adjacent lots from the same seller on the same day. But the disclosures by Obama's presidential campaign left unanswered questions and raised new ones.

<snip>

It's not clear why Obama had not previously divulged Rezko's tour of the house with him. In 2006, he told the Tribune he recalled talking to Rezko and his wife "either at an event or some conversation we had where they mentioned to me that they either knew the property or knew the developer or something like that.

"I remember asking Tony, 'What do you think of the property?' And he was familiar with [the area]. He's been a longtime developer there."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-rezko-home-feb19,0,6690484.story

[William Haskins]

from today's NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/us/politics/02rezko.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin

Tony Rezko was obviously in trouble. He was a defendant in at least a dozen lawsuits, federal investigators in Chicago were poking around, and his name was in newspaper articles about corruption and fraud.

None of that stopped Mr. Rezko, a politically connected developer, and Senator Barack Obama from completing real estate deals a few years ago that resulted in the Obamas obtaining their dream house and the Rezkos buying an empty lot next door.

Nearly three years later, fallout from Mr. Obama’s relationship with Mr. Rezko, who raised more than $150,000 for Mr. Obama’s campaigns, continue to dog Mr. Obama on the presidential campaign trail. That distraction promises to linger as Mr. Rezko goes on trial on corruption charges starting Monday.

Mr. Obama, a Democrat, is not part of the case against Mr. Rezko, who is accused of shaking down companies seeking business with the State of Illinois. Mr. Obama has conceded that it was a mistake to bring Mr. Rezko into his personal real estate dealings, although he has insisted that there was nothing unusual about the developer’s decision to buy a sought-after lot in an upscale neighborhood.

But a review of court records, including new details of Mr. Rezko’s finances that emerged recently, show that the lot purchase occurred as he was being pursued by creditors seeking more than $10 million, deepening the mystery of why he would plunge into a real estate investment whose biggest beneficiary appears to have been Mr. Obama.

[eldragon]

Another senator living in a mansion.


How surprising.

[William Haskins]

is that all you're taking from the story?

that's silly.

[Monkey]

I remember when the story of Rezko and this land business broke...it was months ago.

Very little came of it then, and I doubt much will come of it now.

They'd better come up with something new if they really want to heap pressure on Obama.

[William Haskins]

that might be true. the difference, of course, is that his trial starts tomorrow.

[Bird of Prey]

Well, obviously Obama knew who he was dealing with. He has at least enough experience to know when he's dealing with a strong arm "bagman."

[eldragon]

is that all you're taking from the story?

that's silly.
So it is.

But that's all I got.

Sorry.

[maestrowork]

So many scandals. The guy hasn't even gotten in the White House yet. Come on, four years is a long time...

[William Haskins]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/logoprinter.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)
April 15, 2008
At Developer’s Trial, Witness Recalls Seeing Obamas at 2004 Party for Investor

By CHRISTOPHER DREW (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/christopher_drew/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
A government witness testified on Monday at the trial of the Chicago businessman Antoin Rezko that Senator Barack Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) attended a party in 2004 that Mr. Rezko held to court a controversial Iraqi-born investor for a large real estate project.

Mr. Obama’s presidential campaign has long said that the senator does not recall meeting the investor, Nadhmi Auchi, a billionaire who has been convicted on fraud charges in Europe. Mr. Obama’s spokesman, Bill Burton, said again Monday that the senator had no recollection of attending any such event.

Questions about the senator’s ties to Mr. Rezko, a former political fund-raiser who is on trial on corruption charges, have dogged his campaign. Mr. Obama has repeatedly said he never did anything to help Mr. Rezko.

The witness, Stuart Levine, who once served on state boards, said Monday that Mr. Rezko held the party at his Mediterranean-style home in a Chicago suburb. News reports from the courtroom said Mr. Rezko wanted to impress Mr. Auchi, who ultimately poured nearly $170 million into the real estate venture.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/us/politics/15rezko.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

[mscelina]

and the web just keeps getting tighter and tighter, doesn't it?

[blacbird]

Obama is under the microscope right now (which isn't a bad thing) because he is now the presumptive Democratic nominee. If Clinton were in that position, the attention to her would be similar; she's getting a bit of a free ride right now, as is McCain. The McCain situation will change, soon enough; barring a real political catastrophe, the Clinton situation will soon become moot.

caw

[mscelina]

You know, I'm not sure that we could even call Obama the presumptive Democratic nominee at the moment. I'm not saying this to be argumentative really, but because I can't really believe it. I think the end of the primary process is still too up in the air. Unless the superdelegates do defect (and I heard a little rumor to that effect earlier) then I think Hillary and Obama will still be fighting this out on the convention floor.

Of course, that may just be wishful thinking too.

[InfinityGoddess]

You know, I'm not sure that we could even call Obama the presumptive Democratic nominee at the moment. I'm not saying this to be argumentative really, but because I can't really believe it. I think the end of the primary process is still too up in the air. Unless the superdelegates do defect (and I heard a little rumor to that effect earlier) then I think Hillary and Obama will still be fighting this out on the convention floor.

Of course, that may just be wishful thinking too.

The math is just too stacked against Hillary for her to win. She has an impossible hill to climb, as the superdelegates aren't about to stage a disastrous (and very much politically suicidal) coup.

[NikeeGoddess]

only 3 years ago
Mr. Obama’s presidential campaign has long said that the senator does not recall meeting the investor, Nadhmi Auchi, a billionaire who has been convicted on fraud charges in Europe. Mr. Obama’s spokesman, Bill Burton, said again Monday that the senator had no recollection of attending any such event.in this day of cameras, cameras everywhere... esp mobile phone cameras no candidate can do anything without a record of it. if you think you may run for president one day you need to keep your friends and colleagues in check from the time you turn 21.

[blacbird]

Unless the superdelegates do defect (and I heard a little rumor to that effect earlier) then I think Hillary and Obama will still be fighting this out on the convention floor.

Unless the SuperDupers "defect", at this point, Clinton doesn't have a ghost of a whiff of a vapor of a chance at the nomination. The delegate math is simply inexorable. IG stated it pretty succinctly. That's her major problem.

caw

[Joe270]

Man, this is shaping up to be an incredible election year.

Obama can't sew up the nomination, either, so it goes to the convention. What happens there to make a choice?

[clintl]

she's getting a bit of a free ride right now, as is McCain. The McCain situation will change, soon enough; barring a real political catastrophe, the Clinton situation will soon become moot.

caw

Yes. Someone could just bring up the fact that during the affair story with the lobbyist broke, McCain said he never had a meeting with one of her clients (the CEO of the PAX network?), when he had said the opposite in a deposition a few years before that.

[whistlelock]

Are we tired of the Bitter words thing already? Or is it time to retread the old stories already?

When is it Clinton's turn? or McCain's?

[blacbird]

Man, this is shaping up to be an incredible election year.

Yes, it is. And, regardless of your preferences, it's hard not to admit that such a situation is other than good. We are witnessing unprecedented interest in the Presidential electoral process, and it is guaranteed to spill over into Senatorial and Congressional and Gubernatorial and more local electoral races. And this is almost entirely due to the race between Obama and Clinton. The Republican primary race had the inspiration level of a curling match between the national teams of Paraguay and Mozambique.

caw

[Joe270]

The Republican primary race had the inspiration level of a curling match between the national teams of Paraguay and Mozambique.

Agreed. I was hoping for Colin P. Lots of folks are swooning for Condi Rice, too.

Could you imagine if it was a primary race right now between those two and Obama and Clinton? Wow.

[John Paton]

sometimes I think we should all just go back to the horse and cart and NO telephones.

A much much simpler way of life.

I just hate to think how "Honest Abe" would be treated by the tripe that passes for news nowadays.

Give Barack a break will yas. He has more charisma than a hall full of politicos ... and a nice turn at humour.

[Joe270]

I just hate to think how "Honest Abe" would be treated by the tripe that passes for news nowadays.

He wouldn't stand and ice cube's chance in hell.

Rush L.: 'The guy's a complete failure in business. A failure. Do we want this complete failure running our country when he can't run a simple business?'

Bill Mahr: 'Have you seen this 'Honest' Abe? Honest, now there's a stretch. And speaking of stretch, what is he, ten feet tall?'

Al Sharpton: 'He wears a black stove-pipe hat. I say Black. Stove-pipe. Hat. Why? Oh, why?'

Bill O'R: 'Now wait a second, I never commented on his appearance, au contraire, I only stated that his visage was offensive. . .'

Jesse J: 'I say, Honest Abe ain't so true, he's always so blue, who knew? We're through.'

Anne Coutler: 'Can you say 'Freakazoid Humanoid'? C'mon, people, this guy's bumper sticker says 'Lurch For President'. . . '

Clinton: 'He's a misogynistic pig. . .'

Bill Clinton: 'Huh, yeah, what she said. . .'

Bush: 'Uh, can you repeat the question?'

Hannity: 'I'm just not buying any of this log cabin stuff. Who lives in a log cabin?'

Combs: 'I actually stayed in a log cabin once. . .'

Scarbourough: 'So what if he studied by candlelight. . . '

Glenn Beck: 'Law school? What law school? The (wiggles fingers in the air) "Log Cabin Candlelight U. School of Law"? Sure, right.'

Ah, someone else needs to take over, I don't watch these idiots enough to do them justice in a re-assassination of Lincoln.

[John Paton]

great stuff Joe ;)

Oprah " I kinda like him but I wish he wouldn't smoke so much!" Cue wild cheering

[mscelina]

pfffffffft.

You guys are downplaying what may be one of the greatest electoral processes since the end of WWII. Here we are with a Republican nominee, who is out of favor with the far right, patiently waiting while the Democratic primary process shows every sign of remaining unresolved until the floor of the convention! All of those legendary nights of shady deals in smoky back rooms while power brokers wheel and deal the nomination between them may be coming back for one short week--and we have an opportunity to watch every drop of blood and loop of intestine spill out onto the floor before the confetti falls.

Just in time for it to start all over again when the argument starts over the VP slot.

Ah, bliss! Politics like it used to be. Teddy Roosevelt would be so proud!

[William Haskins]

Are we tired of the Bitter words thing already? Or is it time to retread the old stories already?

if you look at the date of the NYT story in post 16, it's today. and it contains information that directly contradicts the obama campaign's claims about its relationship with the subject of a corruption trial.

in other words, it's called "news".

When is it Clinton's turn? or McCain's?

if you go to the main forum list, you'll see a "new thread" button.

go nuts.

[johnnysannie]

is that all you're taking from the story?

that's silly.

No, it's not silly. It's just all there is. There isn't any real substance here, nothing so damning that it can derail Obama's campaign and certainly nothing worse than many of the skeletons lurking in Hillary's closet.

[cethklein]

So the waters get murkier. No wonder the Republicans have been so desperate to get Hillary out of the race.

Hillary? McCain has been going after Obama far more often recently. I think in the lnog run the GOP knows it can dig up more dirt on Hillary as she's had a longer career (and of course then you've got the myriad of things they'll just fabricate about her as well.)

[William Haskins]

No, it's not silly. It's just all there is. There isn't any real substance here, nothing so damning that it can derail Obama's campaign and certainly nothing worse than many of the skeletons lurking in Hillary's closet.

this is a discussion forum for politics. no one said this was going to "derail obama's campaign".

but to suggest that there's no substance in the steady dripdripdrip of obama's ever-changing story on his rezko ties is, in fact, silly (in my opinion).

[Bird of Prey]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/logoprinter.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/us/politics/15rezko.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

My oh my. That doesn't sound very above board, does it?

Now watch the Obamanites, claiming it's ALL meaningless. That Obama is being framed, that nobody's perfect, that everybody wants a multi-million dollar mansion and everybody deals with thugs to get one and he's THE CANDIDATE FOR CHANGE!! He really gives a crap about poor people!!

Yes!! Go Obama, go!! And as Reverend Wright would say, "God DAMN America!!"

Edit: Oh, and I didn't even think about the "derail the campaign" defense. . . .

[Takvah]

pfffffffft.

....All of those legendary nights of shady deals in smoky back rooms while power brokers wheel and deal the nomination between them may be coming back for one short week--

Ah, bliss! Politics like it used to be. Teddy Roosevelt would be so proud!

Was it ever really gone when you consider that the Superdelegates are an invention that has been in ready use for a quarter century? They just changed the game a wee bit, gave it an appearance of legitimacy when in simple fact it is nothing more than a safeguarding and consolidation of power. For all of the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands, this primary will fall to power brokers within the party. Meanwhile, Obama's arguments about delegates holds no weight. The 'supers' were created to do exactly what Hillary Clinton intends to use them for. If you give the lady the gun, you ought to know that she'll use it! If there is one thing I can wholly respect about Hillary Clinton, it is her cutthroat tenacity. Obama can talk about the audacity of hope, but that woman is LIVING it! :D

[johnnysannie]

[QUOTE=Bird of Prey;2264322 "God DAMN America!!"

[/QUOTE]

I'm quoting Bird of Prey as saying "God damn America" but I conveniently cut off the rest of what he said, leaving these words out of context. Oh, my....but that is what the media did with Rev. Wright.

I'm not a supporter of Rev. Wright but if people took the time - I did - to listen to the entire speech (which was given in 2003, by the way, not recently as the media would have America believe), they might realize that the infamous quote is taken out of context. Just as I cut down BOP's quote to read only "God damn America", so did the media chop out a small portion of a much longer sermon.

Anyone so inclined can watch it here:

http://www.dailyvodcasts.com/?p=55323

And God bless America but our nation did do the things Wright talks about in his sermon; that is historical fact.

[NikeeGoddess]

...certainly nothing worse than many of the skeletons lurking in Hillary's closet.all those hillary skeletons have been let out over the years. and she's pretty much proven that she can weather the storm. the digging in younger obama's closet has just begun. now he has to prove that he's strong enough to combat it. so far he's done a great job but it's only just begun.


http://www.dailyvodcasts.com/?p=55323 - this is why i said on another thread that his words were the most misunderstood. b/c they were taken out of context.

[cethklein]

all those hillary skeletons have been let out over the years. and she's pretty much proven that she can weather the storm. the digging in younger obama's closet has just begun. now he has to prove that he's strong enough to combat it. so far he's done a great job but it's only just begun.

This is true and it's why I welcome all the "diggging". Anyone who wants to be president needs to be able to handle this sort of thing.

[Bird of Prey]

I'm quoting Bird of Prey as saying "God damn America" but I conveniently cut off the rest of what he said, leaving these words out of context. Oh, my....but that is what the media did with Rev. Wright.

I'm not a supporter of Rev. Wright but if people took the time - I did - to listen to the entire speech (which was given in 2003, by the way, not recently as the media would have America believe), they might realize that the infamous quote is taken out of context. Just as I cut down BOP's quote to read only "God damn America", so did the media chop out a small portion of a much longer sermon.

Anyone so inclined can watch it here:

http://www.dailyvodcasts.com/?p=55323

And God bless America but our nation did do the things Wright talks about in his sermon; that is historical fact.

Oh bull. I can't believe anybody would excuse a minister for saying that. And out of context? My ass. Wright was not taken out of context. He said it and he meant it. And a presidential candidate sat through twenty years of his bullshit sermons and didn't see a thing wrong with it.

[Bird of Prey]

I'm quoting Bird of Prey as saying "God damn America" but I conveniently cut off the rest of what he said, leaving these words out of context. Oh, my....but that is what the media did with Rev. Wright.

I'm not a supporter of Rev. Wright but if people took the time - I did - to listen to the entire speech (which was given in 2003, by the way, not recently as the media would have America believe), they might realize that the infamous quote is taken out of context. Just as I cut down BOP's quote to read only "God damn America", so did the media chop out a small portion of a much longer sermon.

Anyone so inclined can watch it here:

http://www.dailyvodcasts.com/?p=55323

And God bless America but our nation did do the things Wright talks about in his sermon; that is historical fact.

And johnnie, last thing. You want to take me out of context, that's fine. But please don't think for a minute that you'll ever be able to compare me to that pig that preached racism and hatred for twenty some odd years and has the gall to build himself a mansion on it.

[Takvah]

Can a preacher ranting, "God damn America!" really be taken out of context? What kind of a preacher uses the Lord's name in vain?! This is an angry man that shovels hate in exchange for a tithe. It's disgusting. For pity's sake, he trashed the memory of 3000+ dead innocents killed on 9/11 for the sake of calling it retribution:

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.”
- Jeremiah Wright


That right there, is a grade A, opportunistic, piece of race baiting GARBAGE. He even turned a terrorist attack into a sermon on black vs. white. By God, we damned well had it comin'!

BOP has this one right, Obama sat through these sermons and he also had his wife at home... and we all know she hasn't been proud of America for the entirety of her adult life and refers to America as angry. I don't know if she knows the meaning of the word angry considering Wright is tossed off as passionate!

[NikeeGoddess]

BOP has this one right, Obama sat through these sermons and he also had his wife at home... and we all know she hasn't been proud of America for the entirety of her adult life and refers to America as angry. I don't know if she knows the meaning of the word angry considering Wright is tossed off as passionate!basically this all goes down to judgement. obama was praying on hillary's judgement when it came to a vote on the war. her answer was that she expected dubya to do the right thing and was disappointed at how it turned out. if we elect a president then we need to expect he has sound judgement. so really her judgement was trusting dubya. so back to obama and his judgement. if he sat through any sermon were the preacher used the term "god damn america"... esp knowing that he would one day run for president, then the hair should have stood up on the back of his head. but instead, he selected wright as one of his advisors. poor judgement obama.

[InfinityGoddess]

basically this all goes down to judgement. obama was praying on hillary's judgement when it came to a vote on the war. her answer was that she expected dubya to do the right thing and was disappointed at how it turned out. if we elect a president then we need to expect he has sound judgement. so really her judgement was trusting dubya. so back to obama and his judgement. if he sat through any sermon were the preacher used the term "god damn america"... esp knowing that he would one day run for president, then the hair should have stood up on the back of his head. but instead, he selected wright as one of his advisors. poor judgement obama.

Except even after the "Trusting Dubya to do the right thing" on Iraq thing went down the toilet, she still voted for Kyl-Lieberman, the amendment that basically gives the President the right to saber-rattle Iran, even if it's for no good reason other than to simply invade that country. You would think she would have learned that lesson not to give Bush what he wants, but no. She did not learn a thing. And that's part of what's costing her.

[Takvah]

Except even after the "Trusting Dubya to do the right thing" on Iraq thing went down the toilet, she still voted for Kyl-Lieberman, the amendment that basically gives the President the right to saber-rattle Iran, even if it's for no good reason other than to simply invade that country. You would think she would have learned that lesson not to give Bush what he wants, but no. She did not learn a thing. And that's part of what's costing her.

Yes and Obama spewed a bunch of anti-war rhetoric whilst campaigning for the Senate in which he said that funding for the Iraq war needed to be cut. What did he do when he got into office, I'll give you a hint... he didn't vote no on keeping the money flowing. It's not as if there was any kind of doubt that the troops would be funded. His vote would have been a statement... but being the chicken shit that he is... he went along with all the rest. Maybe he could have set a precedent for the rest of the cowards in the Congress? Maybe he could have taken the LEAD on something?

When he attacks Hillary for her war votes and then once in office votes right along with her to continue this erroneous conflict... it takes all of the credibility from this guy. He's just a bloody politician, and your double standard is sickening to behold.

[InfinityGoddess]

Yes and Obama spewed a bunch of anti-war rhetoric whilst campaigning for the Senate in which he said that funding for the Iraq war needed to be cut. What did he do when he got into office, I'll give you a hint... he didn't vote no on keeping the money flowing. It's not as if there was any kind of doubt that the troops would be funded. His vote would have been a statement... but being the chicken shit that he is... he went along with all the rest. Maybe he could have set a precedent for the rest of the cowards in the Congress? Maybe he could have taken the LEAD on something?

When he attacks Hillary for her war votes and then once in office votes right along with her to continue this erroneous conflict... it takes all of the credibility from this guy. He's just a bloody politician, and you're double standard is sickening to behold.

Oh, yes, so we should just cut off the funding so that troops would be left stranded in the field? Please.

Even if Obama had voted no on the war funding bills, it wouldn't have made a difference. There's too thin of a majority in the Senate to even consider forcing withdrawal. And he knew it. So what was his choice? To keep sending money so our boys and girls can get their equipment or just act like he didn't care about them? It was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. And he chose "damned if he did". I don't fault him for it, because support the war or not, we all still need to support the troops.

[cethklein]

Plus, had he voted to hold back funding McCain would tear him to shreds over it.

Funding or not, the fact is that vote wouldn't have needed to take place had the war never taken place, and we can thank Mrs. Clinton in part for that. And if by some crazy chance she does get the nomination, she won't be able to use the war against McCain.

[Takvah]

Oh, yes, so we should just cut off the funding so that troops would be left stranded in the field? Please.

Even if Obama had voted no on the war funding bills, it wouldn't have made a difference. There's too thin of a majority in the Senate to even consider forcing withdrawal. And he knew it.

That's the whole point Sunshine... if he was so principled and there was no threat that troops would be left without, WHY NOT TAKE A STAND? I'll tell you why... AMBITION trumps PRINCIPLE.

Get over it, it's just the way it is.

Oh and by the way, when I read...

I don't fault him for it, because support the war or not, we all still need to support the troops.

... coming from you. I threw up in my mouth a little.

[Takvah]

Plus, had he voted to hold back funding McCain would tear him to shreds over it.

Funding or not, the fact is that vote wouldn't have needed to take place had the war never taken place, and we can thank Mrs. Clinton in part for that. And if by some crazy chance she does get the nomination, she won't be able to use the war against McCain.

Either you have principles or YOU DON'T. This is the "change" candidate and he just played the game like all the rest. He had a chance to effect a change right away, to make press for taking a stand, to remain true to his convictions. THAT'S LEADING. McCain has left himself open to be savaged. For a long time his stance on the war seemed suicide, yet here he stands. Apparently, at least ONE of these candidates has the guts to do and say what he believes to be right. McCain is operating on the premise that we're at war. Barack is stranded back in 2003 debating the merits. Well, the good Senator from Illinois had his chance to make his statement when he got in and he didn't... nuff said.

He'd have been torn to shreds by McCain? The stance could have been very popular given the country's view of the war and further being the quality speaker that Obama is, couldn't he have articulated his reasons? Oh ye of little faith.

[cethklein]

Either you have principles or YOU DON'T. This is the "change" candidate and he just played the game like all the rest. He had a chance to effect a change right away, to make press for taking a stand, to remain true to his convictions. THAT'S LEADING. McCain has left himself open to be savaged. For a long time his stance on the war seemed suicide, yet here he stands. Apparently, at least ONE of these candidates has the guts to do and say what he believes to be right. McCain is operating on the premise that we're at war. Barack is stranded back in 2003 debating the merits. Well, the good Senator from Illinois had his chance to make his statement when he got in and he didn't... nuff said.

He'd have been torn to shreds by McCain? The stance could have been very popular given the country's view of the war and further being the quality speaker that Obama is, couldn't he have articulated his reasons? Oh ye of little faith.

Wait a minute, why do YOU even care what Obama does? I thought you said he "Hates America and Americans". Now you're bashing him for funding troops???

[Takvah]

Wait a minute, why do YOU even care what Obama does? I thought you said he "Hates America and Americans". Now you're bashing him for funding troops???

Yeah, I am... because if you're going to say that you stand for something... do it. Why shouldn't I bring up the fact that the guy is all about political expediency? I think it's funny that on one hand people that are buying the line say that he will indeed be different, while at the same time forgiving his falling in line.

[cethklein]

I think "hating America and Americans" is a bit more severe than "falling in line".

Anyway, is his support of funding the troops part of him showing he "hates Americans"? Just curious.

[Bird of Prey]

Why shouldn't I bring up the fact that the guy is all about political expediency? I think it's funny that on one hand people that are buying the line say that he will indeed be different, while at the same time forgiving his falling in line.

Exactly. Very well put.

[Takvah]

I think "hating America and Americans" is a bit more severe than "falling in line".

Anyway, is his support of funding the troops part of him showing he "hates Americans"? Just curious.


No that would fall under the hypocritical chicken shit portion of his platform. His alliances with a racist, anti-American preacher (aka daddy figure) and a wife that says she isn't proud of America and thinks we are an angry nation are probably better indicators of his hate for America. I mean how else do you tolerate the kind of nonsense that those two spew? Having cocktails/dinner/speaking engagements with William Ayers also doesn't do much in the "he loves America" bolstering department. Of course then you yourself go out there and paint middle America (a giant segment of this country) as paranoid, and well... it just adds the right amount of salt to the soup.

[cethklein]

See that's the issue, I don't care what his pastor or his wife said. Should we hold it against Hillary that her husband commited numerous felonies including lying under oath? No, we msot certainly shouldn't. And michelle Obama's statements being anti American is a major stretch.

But again what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? I didn't question why you thought he hated America in this topic I asked why you care so much about a man you think hates America? If I thought someone hated America or was a racist, I doubt I'd give a damn what else they think/do.

[Takvah]

See that's the issue, I don't care what his pastor or his wife said. Should we hold it against Hillary that her husband commited numerous felonies including lying under oath? No, we msot certainly shouldn't. And michelle Obama's statements being anti American is a major stretch.

But again what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? I didn't question why you thought he hated America in this topic I asked why you care so much about a man you think hates America? If I thought someone hated America or was a racist, I doubt I'd give a damn what else they think/do.

This guy just so happens to be running for President of the United States. If you wouldn't care that a bigot was running for what is in essence "leader of the free world", that's your business. I do care what Obama does and what he stands for because if he stands to be leading my nation it's my responsibility to know and to give a damn.

[Bird of Prey]

But again what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? I didn't question why you thought he hated America in this topic I asked why you care so much about a man you think hates America? If I thought someone hated America or was a racist, I doubt I'd give a damn what else they think/do.


No? If that person was running for the presidency with a potential to win, you wouldn't care if he actually "hated America" or was a racist? Really? You wouldn't give a damn what else they "think/do?" This person could shape policy affecting you and your family.

So, I certainly wouldn't be sitting there mute.

[cethklein]

No? If that person was running for the presidency with a potential to win, you wouldn't care if he actually "hated America" or was a racist? Really? You wouldn't give a damn what else they "think/do?" This person could shape policy affecting you and your family.

So, I certainly wouldn't be sitting there mute.

Sure I would, but on one has shown that obama himself does hate America or is racist, they've shown that peopel around him do/are (in the case or Wright).

This is the issue, you're confusing the company he keeps with he himself. Trust me I'm not saying Obama is a saint and I am disgusted that he associated with Wright, but saying HE hates America is a strech, a long one.

The reason I support Obama is two-fold, A: It's a "lesser of two evils" thing, but B: I think while he's made mistakes (as all people do) he's done it less than Hillary, and has usually owned up to it when he did.

[Takvah]

Sure I would, but on one has shown that obama himself does hate America or is racist, they've shown that peopel around him do/are (in the case or Wright).

This is the issue, you're confusing the company he keeps with he himself. Trust me I'm not saying Obama is a saint and I am disgusted that he associated with Wright, but saying HE hates America is a strech, a long one.

The reason I support Obama is two-fold, A: It's a "lesser of two evils" thing, but B: I think while he's made mistakes (as all people do) he's done it less than Hillary, and has usually owned up to it when he did.

:rolleyes: Arguing the finer points is going to be a round and round and I really don't see the point. I also completely disagree with your assessment of his character and his owning up. I think he goes kicking and screaming every single time.

[cethklein]

:rolleyes: Arguing the finer points is going to be a round and round and I really don't see the point. I also completely disagree with your assessment of his character and his owning up. I think he goes kicking and screaming every single time.

then I suppose we have to agree to disagree.

[InfinityGoddess]

That's the whole point Sunshine... if he was so principled and there was no threat that troops would be left without, WHY NOT TAKE A STAND? I'll tell you why... AMBITION trumps PRINCIPLE.

Get over it, it's just the way it is.

Oh and by the way, when I read...



... coming from you. I threw up in my mouth a little.

And even if he took a stand, there was still Joe Lieberman and the Republicans to consider, as well as some of the Blue Dogs. It would not have made a difference. We are still stuck in Iraq in the meantime.

Obama is a politician, and like with all politicians, there is a right time and a wrong time to pick a fight. Funding for the Iraq war is one of those fights that has to wait until there is a wider anti-war majority in the Congress, and Obama knows this, especially since we have a stubborn President who just refuses to follow his own "support the troops" rhetoric.

[NikeeGoddess]

i'm just spitballin' here
Originally Posted by cethklein
But again what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? I didn't question why you thought he hated America in this topic I asked why you care so much about a man you think hates America? If I thought someone hated America or was a racist, I doubt I'd give a damn what else they think/do.

No? If that person was running for the presidency with a potential to win, you wouldn't care if he actually "hated America" or was a racist? Really? You wouldn't give a damn what else they "think/do?" This person could shape policy affecting you and your family.in a recent obama speech he said that he would be a better foreign policy president than both hillary and mccain. i'm not saying he hates america (i'm sure he doesn't) but he may be able to connect with other haters of america around the world... using the take one to know one theory.

[Magdalen]

See what happens when you "mock" Georgian architecture?!? Everytime I see "Rezko" I think Bebe Rebozo. But that's probably just me.

[cethklein]

i'm just spitballin' here
in a recent obama speech he said that he would be a better foreign policy president than both hillary and mccain. i'm not saying he hates america (i'm sure he doesn't) but he may be able to connect with other haters of america around the world... using the take one to know one theory.

That and, let's face it, his (albeit not-very-direct) Muslim roots and his middle name might just make him appealing to some Middle Eastern governments. But we'll see. He's definitely got a better shot than someone like Dubya. (But then again, Gomer Pyle probably has a better shot at it than Dubya.)

[Bird of Prey]

Sure I would, but on one has shown that obama himself does hate America or is racist, they've shown that peopel around him do/are (in the case or Wright).

This is the issue, you're confusing the company he keeps with he himself. Trust me I'm not saying Obama is a saint and I am disgusted that he associated with Wright, but saying HE hates America is a strech, a long one.

The reason I support Obama is two-fold, A: It's a "lesser of two evils" thing, but B: I think while he's made mistakes (as all people do) he's done it less than Hillary, and has usually owned up to it when he did.

Well, frankly, he doesn't have her thirty years in the public eye to scrutinize. He barely has six. So relying on his personal life and affiliations to fill the gap, he looks pretty bad.

Still, for what it's worth, Ceth, he's your candidate and I respect your defense of him, although I don't agree with it. Guess we'll see what happens.

[CDarklock]

I think it's funny that on one hand people that are buying the line say that he will indeed be different, while at the same time forgiving his falling in line.

I've been watching Obama change his story and stance in subtle and not-so-subtle ways since 2005.

He still hasn't changed it enough to lose my support. I appreciate that politics is a game, and if you want to win, you have to play. I'm willing to look the other way on a great many things for that reason, because it's possible to play a corrupt game - and thus become corrupted - without losing all of one's idealism and purity. I accept as a sad fact of life that he has to lose some of it, and I'm of the opinion that he'll retain enough that he remains the best candidate for the job.

But I'm a Republican. We're pragmatic; given the choice between crippling twelve people and killing one, we tend to choose killing one - because it damages fewer people. A Democrat would generally prefer crippling twelve, because there's simply no reason to ever kill someone.

The reality, of course, is that there's no right answer to that question. Both answers are wrong. It doesn't matter how you justify it. So when someone plays the game, yes, it's wrong - but that's the choice he had available. He could play, or he could lose.

[cethklein]

Well, frankly, he doesn't have her thirty years in the public eye to scrutinize. He barely has six. So relying on his personal life and affiliations to fill the gap, he looks pretty bad.

Still, for what it's worth, Ceth, he's your candidate and I respect your defense of him, although I don't agree with it. Guess we'll see what happens.

Well I'm by no means a totally dedicated supporter, I'm behind Obama because frankly, look at the alternative. I think it's his lack of baggage that is a selling point. We all know the GOP are vicious when it comes to baggage. Also, as we've all seen, for right or wrong, it's hard to make things stick on Obama. McCain will have a much harder time pinning him down. But Obama also has at least a dash of clout with the GOP. Hillary can't say the same. I'm a die-hard centrist and thus think this partisan nonsense has to stop. Even if Hillary wanted to be more moderate, it will be hard for her given her past history. Believe it or not I have a great deal of respect for Hillary Clinton but I also think she's let her ego got the best of her. Let's face it, even some of her uspporters will admit she went into this primary assuming the party would just hand her the nomination. She wasn't prepared and that's not a good trait for president to have.

She's also made Obama's mistake of surrounding herself with some less-than-scrupulous people herself. I kind of expect better from a person with her "experience".

But anyway I appreciate your open-mindedness, that can't be said for some.

[Takvah]

But anyway I appreciate your open-mindedness, that can't be said for some.

Some people just can't help themselves. :rolleyes:

[cethklein]

Some people just can't help themselves. :rolleyes:

I've noticed that. We all have.

[johnnysannie]

Well, frankly, he doesn't have her thirty years in the public eye to scrutinize. He barely has six. So relying on his personal life and affiliations to fill the gap, he looks pretty bad.

Still, for what it's worth, Ceth, he's your candidate and I respect your defense of him, although I don't agree with it. Guess we'll see what happens.

Most of her "thirty years" in the public eye is smoke and mirrors; just as substantive as her Bosnian fantasy.