How much "advice" do you accept and/or reject?

Depends on who's giving the advice. My sisters are great beta readers. Each has their own opinion, but are on target with the advice. And one does the grammar, one the plot, one the characterizations. Makes my stories better (or I scrap them 'til a later time). My husband, unfortunately, loves everything I write, but he only reads the first page or two. He's not a "reader" unless it's something to do with NASA or the Beatles. I don't usually ask anyone else their opinion. I'd get too confused.

But once I get their opinion, I make the changes, then put my work aside for at least a week then look at it again. That's when I'm my own editor.

Stephen King looks for majority opinions, or so he wrote in On Writing. He said if one person complains about something that no one else has a problem with, he leaves it alone.

One of the biggest challenges that seems to face beginning writers (and some veterans) is learning to accept, interpret and ultimately use or reject advice. Especially when they receive contradictory advice from several sources.

I went through it, changing a story to suit every single criticism, and in the end it was worse than when I started. I learned to measure the crit against the needs of the story and my intentions for it. One particular example is from the book currently on submission to several agents. Long story short, my critter told me twice that I should cut my opening chapter completely. I listened to her reasons and appreciated them, but in the end, I kept the chapter. Because I still think it's necessary to the story and to the main character's conflict (and no, it's not boring backstory exposition).

Some of her other crits, though, were spot-on, IMHO. I used them, and I do think they made the book better.

Judging the source, whether solicited or unsolicited, is important. Is the source credible? Did you ask for the advice or was it merely given? There's also the how much do you want/need question. In theory, you could have your manuscript continuosly circulating. However, I think in a situation like that, you're just looking for what you want rather than what's helpful.

And that's probably a facet as well -- are you having some review just to rub your belly, or are you really looking for new clay to mold with? My experience when someone says, "read this and tell me what you think," they want affirmation rather than acceleration.

Successes I've seen have always come when people target feedback specifically (e.g., asking for a read on grammar, and have another read on style, and another read for pacing, and so on). Beta readers can be a huge resource that way.

I'd think having that sort of preparation before sending to a pub house or agent would give you an upper hand.

I suppose the criticism has to ring true to me. I have pretty good beta readers, so it often does. If I can see how somthing will make my story better, I'll change it. If it seems like that person just didn't "get" it, then I don't. I take criticism well, I think, so I don't worry about ignoring good advice just because I'm defensive.

Agreeing with jst 5150 --Depends on the source and their biases.

I'm learning to listen hardest to the advice I like least: often that can point out a blind spot. Also, obviously, to anything several betas/critters point out. And anything an agent is kind enough to tell me, I'm going to take a good long look at.

Which is not to say that anything not falling into these categories is tossed - or that anything in them is an automatic change: I think about every point, and decide what feels right (sometimes after a week or two of angsting over it, but I've gotten by without dignity so far, so that's good ).

Ultimately I know the story and the characters best, and all the advice I get has to be weighed against my sense of what's best. It can take me a while to figure that out, of course.

sometimes my readers want my characters to be something I never intended- case in point- my protag in WIP is geneticaly engineered but doesn't know that- when he finds out he struggles with his humanity or lack there of- at times he is hard to like as he swings to the darker side of who he was programed to be- one of my betas wants me to cut the part where he kills someone saying- But he"s the good guy!

Yes- but even good guys have to resist temptation and make a desicion in the end- My point is he has to be bad in order to decide to be good- my reader didn't want this- she wanted all sunshine and happyness- jeese!

There's lots of things that goes into how I take advice:

Beta reader or just casual acquaintance? How much did they actually read--a chapter, a snippet, the entire book? What are their personal biases, pro and con? Were they intending to crit it--and if so, what were they looking for--or were they just reading it as a reader? What's their agenda for giving commentary in the first place?

After those filters have been applied, I take what remains to be considered and see how they might affect my core story ideas. If they warp what I know my story is, then I sit down and look at the prose and see where I didn't communicate my story correctly and fix it. If they jive with the story, then I look at my reaction to what was said.

If I have no emotional reaction, then I discount the comment completely.
If I have a strong emotional reaction (either pain or joy), then I set it aside to look at when I'm not emotionally charged to see where someone might get that reaction. I've learned over my years that the comments that I have the strongest negative reaction to are usually the ones that truly need to be addressed, whereas the ones that make me smile are "atta girls" and need to be left alone.

When necessary, I go back to people and open up a dialogue to better understand where the highs and lows happened for them. Sometimes the problem is as small as a single word and sometimes an entire concept just doesn't translate well onto the page. Most people offering commentary don't think about these kinds of details, so it helps if I help pinpoint their attention a bit more. With my established readers, I try to do this in the initial stage of the commentary because I always have the answers to all those first filter questions and can just get to the meat of the information offered when the reading experience is fresh in their minds.

My editor from Putnam had this conversation with me before we worked on LOTTERY- She said if a writer makes approx. 75% of the changes generally it's sufficient...
But I don't think you are asking specifically about editing-
With my beta readers if it's a clarity issue I take it seriously- if it's subjective ( yr example "that would never happen") I see what my other readers say.
Generally if I have to explain anything to one of my betas I take it really seriously as you do not have that liberty with your readers.
During the workshops I have attended I see more writers pig headedly ignore constructive criticism than I do those who immediately change anything anytime...

If I'm getting the same criticism from the majority of my betas, then I think there is a problem that should at least be looked at. If one person doesn't like something but the others like it, then I'm more prone to leave that section alone. When I began to query my first novel, I had several partials and fulls out to agents and began to receive the same criticism back from every one. It was too controversial for a first time author. I took a step back and thought, my novel was too controversial and knew what they meant. Personally, I like it just the way it is and have no plans to revise it to tone down the controversial stuff. My betas thought it was edgy and begged me not to change the story. Who knows, maybe one day it won't be controversial.

I often get critiques that make me think, "Wow, why didn't I see that myself?" and I always act on those.

When I resist a critique, I think it's useful to look at why I'm resisting it. Is it because I've developed an inappropriate infatuation with some minor detail ("But the poodle HAS TO be named Madame de Pompadour!") that actually blocks the flow of the narrative? Or is it because the critiquer has just gotten the wrong end of the stick for, as other people have said, their own biases (real-life example: "There's no way a sixty-year-old man would be going to a sex party")?

IceCreamEmpress said:

(real-life example: "There's no way a sixty-year-old man would be going to a sex party")?

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I've met some 60 year old men that wanted to host one.

70s too.

Depends on the advisor and what I'm looking for critique-wise. If say, a non-AW-er or someone of similar ilk sez: I love it! of my story, Hey, I love you too, and it's my positive stroke with no strings.

If I ask for a: 'what's wrong with this, tell me warts and all,' I expect that this reader--whom I choose as more canny in wart-finding, to point out the unsightly blemishes, and the beauty marks.

For the reviewer who says 'this is slop I wouldn't feed to my pigs,' I think of appropriate revenge scenarios and then act on them under an assumed name. :}

IceCreamEmpress said:

(real-life example: "There's no way a sixty-year-old man would be going to a sex party")?

Click to expand...

I have a 62 year old male family member who would absolutely go to a sex party, and probably be a hit. But anyway...

Grammar advice I always take, and anything that the entire crit group comments on - that's a big indicator to me that something's wrong. Clarity, structure, I take advice well on those too. Style is a different matter. Usually I ask for specific advice though - "this scene lacks something, any ideas where it's gone wrong?" or the like.

I think if you're going to ask for help, it's rude to just cut that help off at the knees because you can't be objective. One guy at my crit group last night did just that. When we asked him why a certain bit of dialogue was in the story - it was a big sore thumb that had no connection to anything else - he said just because he liked it. We suggested he plant a seed leading to that earlier, justify it somehow if he liked it that much, he blew us all off. Oh well.

He also had a character with a very Irish first name and a very German/Hungarian last name - and he thought it inconsequential when I asked him if he did it on purpose. He hadn't, but he's fine to ignore that, where he might do better to listen to the first bit.

But it's hard to be objective about your own work, so maybe that's why we all have trouble taking advice we've asked for sometimes.

For me, it depends on whether an explanation was provided. If a person simply says "eh, I don't like it" but provides no suggestions for improvement or even a reasoning for their disapproval, I'll typical just thank them for their input and move on. If a person says "eh, I don't like" and tells me why, I'll seriously consider their reasoning and see if it has merit (and since I will admit that I can't always see the faults in my work clearly, I'll often ask for opinions from others on the same issue; as many posters have already said, if multiple people have a problem with something, then a problem likely exists).

underthecity said:

When you receive advice regarding your story, whether it's from a friend/coworker, someone commenting on your sample in SYW, or just your own internal editor, how much do you actually use? Reject?
What do you do with the advice you receive? Has anyone ever given you a piece of advice that made your story a million times better?

allen

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I take all advice, even my own internal editor, with a grain of salt. I don't immediately think advice is right or wrong but mull it over for a few days. If I hear the same comment from a variety of advisors, I generally accept it as a flaw in my manuscript that needs fixing.
The only piece of advice I was given that made my story better was from a reader immediately prior to the manuscript goiing to print. He noticed that someone I'd killed off several chapters before was miraculously resurrected for the final chapter! He was immediately returned to his grave.
Linnea

Advice on grammar, puncuation and other mechanical aspects, I always take.

However... I have a very hard time knowing what other forms of advice to take.
I don't want to repeat other approaches or storylines- so much of what is out there seems to be a re-hash of what's already out there. That is the one thing I am trying to avoid above all other mistakes that I could make.

People have told me I have a good, unique style. I really don't know what they mean, but I sure don't want to mess that up by parroting other authors!

With critiques and editing, I consider 100% of the advice; I may take anywhere from 40 to 50 percent as gospel and waffle a bit on another 20. Grammatical critiques I double check and then implement if the beta was right. Storyline and character crits are a bit trickier for me. None of my beta have read later books in the series and sometimes I write character quirks and throw them in as an aside to cross-reference with the next bit of the story.

The best advice I can give anyone about critiques is as follows: (A) always thank the reader nicely. (b) Before you start freaking out over the crits, sit down and read the story from front to back and think about what impact those crits could actually have on your work. (c) be prepared to look at your manuscript with very harsh eyes.

Writers should be willing to change, yes, but they should also be able to draw a line. No one knows your story/characters/internal motivations better than you. Good luck!

I also look at majority opinions -- if three of my four readers like something, and the fourth dislikes it, I'm a whole lot more likely to keep it in.

As for other things, I find a very telling detail is: Which crits stick with you? When you first read any crit, your impulse is to protect your darling words -- it takes a little while to settle in and take the crit in. After that, see what stays in your mind. The ones that make you think the hardest are probably the ones that touch on real flaws.

IMO, fiction can go well beyond reality. But, it takes some finesse to pull it off. The reader needs to be lead through a series of plausible steps to get where you want them. At no point can they say, "Aw, that'll never happen." If they do, the story needs more work.

--ray

What do I do with my advice? Suck everything up like a sponge, can't help myself.