So my fantasy novel is long

[Gynn]

It's just over 226,000 words. Now before everyone recoils and turns to stone, I've read many books that were that size or longer. I enjoy books with some meat on them. But everywhere I go, I see people posting what they believe to be the correct range of numbers for a novel, usually 80-120k is what I see. Fantasy can go over, they mention, but I hardly ever see the number 200,000 pop up.

Is this personal preference, or do agents and publishers just get wary when they see a project with so many words? I don't mind a trimming here and there (I'm a long-winded writer and am trying to break the habit), but I'd hate to take a chainsaw to the thing just to get someone interested enough to put their feet in the water and check it out!

[Wintermule]

They get wary. Obviously. Hence why you hardly ever see the number 200,000 pop up.

[mscelina]

make it into two books. The chances of an agent taking a chance on a new writer's 226k tome are unlikely. You should probably prepare yourself to wield the chainsaw quite liberally, by the way. The chances of a publisher letting it go unscathed are nil.

[AndreaGS]

Mine's 140k, and agents have expressed apprehension over the length.

If you can, chop it in two! I think it's a first-time author thing. I see fantasy books all the time that waaay surpass that length, but for first-timers I think the publishers get hesitant.

[Gynn]

I can maybe see chopping it in two, but the tricky part would be ending the first book in a way that wouldn't seem cheesy. Is it bad form to end a book on a cliffhanger?

[Chasing the Horizon]

Most of my fantasy books are long (140k-190k). Of course, I don't care about getting published, so I just write the best story I possibly can and let it go at that. Hell, my contemporary looks like it'll hit 120k. You're not going to get a 226k book published as a first time author (well, OK, it's POSSIBLE, but you'd be a lot better off playing the lottery). A cliffhanger ending isn't likely to help much either, because then agents pretty much have to get you a two book publishing deal. Agents want a first novel to stand alone and be 90-130k (fantasy word count guidelines from most of the major publishing houses fit this number). Unless you think you've terribly over-written the story, I'd set this MS aside and write another (hopefully shorter) one. Once you're a successful novelist you'll be able to get the big one published.

[Gillhoughly]

It's a question of money, not wordage.

It's easier for an agent to sell two 100K books than one 200K book.

It costs the publisher more to print one 200K book than one 100K book. There's less paper involved. (Prices have gone up, y'see.)

They will risk printing of the first one. If its sales aren't up to snuff, they will cancel the printing of the second--even if it does continue the story.

My agent sold a 10-book series of mine to a French house. They've printed four of them, but decided not print the rest; they didn't like the sales numbers. (Better covers would have made the difference, dammit. I could have cobbled something better together myself with Photoshop!)

I get to keep the advance, but I won't get any more money from them for the remaining 6 titles. (It was half now, half on publication, so the cancelled deal means I'm out about 6 grand for the other half.)

They don't care about story continuity so much as sales.

Your best option is split the book--edit like mad to get the word count down to 100K each. That, or expand the story into a 3-book deal.

OR--do what you've said: write a shorter 90-100K work that gets published and then your agent can sell this work more easily!

Good luck!

[badducky]

I never think I'm done with something until I edit it in half.

When I was working on my second book. It became a bug crusher.

I chopped it into three books. Agent agreed that this was a very good idea, and laughed at my term "Bug Crusher".

When you are Thomas Pynchon or Robert Jordan, you can do it easy. We aren't there, yet. Why make it even harder for yourself when it's already so hard?

[Shadow_Ferret]

It's just over 226,000 words. For a just starting out author? I doubt anyone will touch that. I have a 195,000 word novel that I've left in the trunk for now while I attempt to sell my shorter novels.

Once you've established yourself as a profitable commodity, they'll let you sell any length novel.

[Death Wizard]

My novel is 700,000 words, but it's broken into six parts. You get my gist.

[Dragon-lady]

I am on Dave Farland's email list and he mentioned recently that fanasy publishers have been warned by Barnes and Nobles that they will not stock novels longer than 125,000 words. He mentioned that his own novels he has run into an absolute insistance on cutting them -- and in case someone doesn't know he is a best selling novelist.

No, once you are a best selling author they will not necessarily let you get away with it.

The chances of the rest of us getting a novel above that on the shelf are somewhere near nil. Even with a best seller under your belt, it's likely to be cut.

Do what Tolkien did (and plenty of other novelists too) and cut it into several novels.

[Gynn]

Thanks for all of the advice!

[Smiling Ted]

Ask yourself if you really need all the material. I once read through 100 pages of an epic fantasy before anything at all significant happened. At page 101, I hurled it into the trash.

[Death Wizard]

Ask yourself if you really need all the material. I once read through 100 pages of an epic fantasy before anything at all significant happened. At page 101, I hurled it into the trash.


Good gawd! Page 102 was the best thing ever written!!!

[Ruv Draba]

It's just over 226,000 words. Now before everyone recoils and turns to stone, I've read many books that were that size or longer. I enjoy books with some meat on them.
Wikipedia has a list of longest novels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_novels)- and 226,000 words wouldn't even approach the top 20 list (Les Misérables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables) at 513,000 words is the bottom of the list). Tolkien's Lord of the Rings has been estimated at around 417,000 words. Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is estimated at 350,000 words. I love a good, thick read too, but...

Works this long are hard to do well. As evidence you can see that most large fantasy tomes are heavily padded with gratuitous imagery, prolix descriptions, scene-setting for its own sake, action that doesn't relate to plot, reaction that doesn't change character and dialogue that just tiredly reiterates the same motifs.

There is actually a market of readers who can tolerate such stuff but I don't think it's a huge market, and it's also not typically the well-read long-term fantasy devotees. This means that unless you're a first-rate writer with a loyal following your return for your effort may be quite low. You might do a lot better for your revenue, professional development and reputation writing three good novels of the same length than one bloated, possibly mediocre novel. You may also be kind to a potential publisher to pick the good ideas out of your novel and condense it.
I don't mind a trimming here and there (I'm a long-winded writer and am trying to break the habit), but I'd hate to take a chainsaw to the thing just to get someone interested enough to put their feet in the water and check it out!
I crit a fair bit elsewhere, and the biggest causes I see of long novels is not expression but weak story design and poor focus. Many authors get so caught up in their descriptions and settings that they forget that's not what the average reader reads for.

As an exercise try this: mark every scene where a major character changes significantly (e.g. in values, beliefs or strategies) or the plot progresses. By 'plot progresses' I don't just mean 'characters shift locations and mull over the same stuff'. I mean that either the objective changes or the opposition is confronted and the balance of power shifts or the stakes change irrevocably.

These scenes will contain the major through-lines and also your major themes. In a typical fantasy story you may find 10-30 scenes where these things occur. The only way that you'll be outside this range is if you have an ensemble cast as Lord of the Rings does -- and they're all changing -- or if you have a very complex plotline with rapidly swinging power, changing stakes and shifting objectives -- in other words, if it's very interesting plot.

If you write your chapters just around your through-line scenes (i.e. set up the scene, discharge it, link to the next), then you'll have at most 10-30 chapters (barring ensemble casts or a complex plot). Even at 5,000 words a chapter that's 50,000 to 150,000 words.

I know that it's probably not what you want to hear, but I hope it helps -- either to cut back on your length without losing substance, or to help validate that you really do have good reason to write a novel of that size. ;)

[Smiling Ted]

Good gawd! Page 102 was the best thing ever written!!!

Shoot! SHOOT! Damn it!
I KNEW I should have read one more page!

[IdiotsRUs]

226k? I have the same problem. Or rather I've managed to whittle it down to 190+k and still tweaking....

It's amazing how much better it is for it too. But still, I doubt I'll get it down to the 140-160 matk that is acceptable for a first time fantasy author. So I'm writing a prequel that will. And if it ever sells, I can say 'Ooh well, I've got a sequel already written' And apparantly agents / publishers are happier to look at longer works if you've already published and sold reasonably well.

[ClaudiaGray]

The publishing costs of a heavier book have to come into consideration. Paper costs go up; also, bigger books require sturdier (i.e. more expensive) binding. The longer you go, the better you have to be and the more certain your editor and publisher have to be that you'll recoup the costs. It's a lot better to get it down (or cut it into parts) in order to fit into regular publishing sizes.

Keep in mind that the list of longest historical books includes many that were originally printed in periodicals, chapter by chapter; judging current books by that standard doesn't really work. (Also, even those authors might write more tightly these days -- they were getting paid by the word, in which case, a little more lavish description seems like just the ticket --)

[IceCreamEmpress]

Tolkien's Lord of the Rings has been estimated at around 417,000 words.

Which is why it was published as three volumes.

Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is estimated at 350,000 words.

And he would never have gotten it published if he hadn't already written critical and commercial successes of the standard market length.

I just don't think it's wise to give yourself a handicap starting out in such a tough race!

[Death Wizard]

My series is 700,000 words, which dwarfs LOTR. But I can't even count how long Jordan's, Erikson's, and Martin's series are. One million plus, easy. Jordan and Erikson are flirting with three million, aren't they?

Good is good. Average is average. Bad is bad. If you write long and good, you'll be okay. Long and average, you'll struggle. Long and bad, you're screwed.

[Plot Device]

Consider the possibility that you may have over-written it.

I wrote a screenplay that was 270 pages. (In screenwriting, we don't measure by word-count but by page-count.) The current industry standard for Hollywood is 105-115 pages, with an absolute ceiling at 120 pages. So my 270 pages was NOT acceptable. But I was sure it was all gold and refused to kill even one darling.

But when I finally braved the task of editing, I discoverd that I was repeating the same information again and again (so it was over-written). As I trimmed it back, I got it down to 140 pages, and then the next time I read it straight through I found it had a rhythm and a pace to it that was downright exciting. It zipped along! All that dead weight was gone and it now had an energy it lacked before.

Try seeing if you've likewise needlessly repeated stuff and then see if you can prune it all back to be more lean and economical.

[Dragon-lady]

The publishing costs of a heavier book have to come into consideration. Paper costs go up; also, bigger books require sturdier (i.e. more expensive) binding. The longer you go, the better you have to be and the more certain your editor and publisher have to be that you'll recoup the costs. It's a lot better to get it down (or cut it into parts) in order to fit into regular publishing sizes.
The other consideration is that B&N can make more money if they have several books in the space that your huge tome would take. So they're less likely to stock it or stock less of it unless you are a huge best seller.

Not stocked in B&N=no sell through and an unhappy publisher as well as less royalties. Seriously, if Tolkine can devide his work into several, so can we.

[Miguelito]

Wow. I read this thread and can only think that people need to get in touch with their inner editors. ;)

Yes, right now, it is uneconomic to write books 250,000 words in length. So, you're left with several possibilities:

1) for God's sake, learn to edit;
2) chop the book into smaller pieces;
3) wait for e-books to catch on, when page counts won't matter (or, maybe they will because publishers would rather sell two smaller books than one larger one).

[DonnaDuck]

Right now I have a goal for my fantasy WIP set at 500k with every intention of chopping it into smaler books (never in my right mind, or wrong one for that matter, would I attempt to sell one single book that long) because I know that I have that much of the story in me. The thing is, I just realized the other night when I was writing (it was a bittersweet dawning moment) that what I was writing wasn't part of the intial body of the story but world building. It was kind of a 'dammit' moment when I realized that what I was writing probably wasn't going to end up in the first book but in order to develop the story, it has to be there for now. Chances are, if it's that long, it can be cut and it would be wise to do so. Like everyone else said, your chances of selling something that long are pretty slim.

[Alexandra Little]

When you are Thomas Pynchon or Robert Jordan, you can do it easy.

That's debatable...

[Smiling Ted]

wait for e-books to catch on, when page counts won't matter (or, maybe they will because publishers would rather sell two smaller books than one larger one).

Heck, word counts will matter even then.
If something doesn't engage me by the first 50 pages, I don't continue...and I won't buy any fantasies over 120,000 words without strong, strong recommends from people I trust.

[Ervin]

It's not just the publishers, I wouldn't want to start a 200k+ book by an author who hasn't gotten a chance to prove himself yet. Thats alot of time I'm risking, that I could be using to read good books written by people who have already written good books.

[Soccer Mom]

Just adding to what has been said about the difference in what first time and proven authors can have published.

The first Harry Potter book was 77,508 words (http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp?cmd=specific&i=39576&root=AUTHOR&ftextoption=allwords&y=JK+rowling&q=JK+rowling&x=10&w=1&autoscroll=NO&quiztype=ALL&RPMatch=).

The final Harry Potter was 198, 227 words (http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp?cmd=specific&i=167687&root=AUTHOR&ftextoption=allwords&y=JK+rowling&q=JK+rowling&x=10&w=1&autoscroll=NO&quiztype=ALL&RPMatch=).

There ya go.

[Darzian]

Each of the books in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, is somewhere between 350 000 and 450 000 words. When I compare my 80K ish WIP to that..........

Being published really does give you an edge doesn't it?

More than 100K in YA Fantasy is supposed to be next to impossible to agent and publish for a first time writer, according to the research I've done. Some agents allow up to 125K. I hope I'm not wrong.

[chroniclemaster1]

I'm with Ted and Ervin on this one. When I was in college, I had a million things to read for school so I was only too happy to play hooky entertaining entire books by people I'd never heard of before. But I'm a lot pickier now. I don't care if page 102 is brilliant. If you don't engage me in the first 50 pages, I've got too many other damn good books I want to read to waste anymore time on your lazily written project.

Robert Jordan is still someone I've never read all the way through because it just doesn't look like fun. Everytime I look at those damn things on my shelf, I think "Damn, that's a serious book." And if you aren't in the right mood, that's not entertaining. At least for me. The intimidating size of the volumes definitely hurts you.

[Darzian]

The Prologue to the first book in the Wheel of Time is very hooking. The first book (though very long) is very interesting. After Book 3, the story gets progressively more boring.

[MagicMan]

I operate 3 bookstores. I limit my Jordan, Goodkind, etc. (high word count) stock even though they are best sellers. Maybe a reason why they are best sellers, is it takes less time to sell out when you only have 40 copies (20 facings 2 deep ... $192 GP) of the mega book and 120 (20 facings 6 deep...$384 GP) of the normal word count book. As you can see, for a weekly shipment the GP is better on the average word count book.

[Darzian]

I operate 3 bookstores. I limit my Jordan, Goodkind, etc. (high word count) stock even though they are best sellers. Maybe a reason why they are best sellers, is it takes less time to sell out when you only have 40 copies (20 facings 2 deep ... $192 GP) of the mega book and 120 (20 facings 6 deep...$384 GP) of the normal word count book. As you can see, for a weekly shipment the GP is better on the average word count book.

It took me 5 minutes to understand that.

Man, I need some sleep.

Interesting view, BTW. I never considered it that way!

[Elonna]

The biggest issue is that you are unpublished at this point. Agents and pub houses do not want to spend the kind of money it costs to publish a book of that size on an unknown author. Yes, there are many books of that size and larger out there, but not very often by an unpublished author. Once you hvae a following, you have more leeway to write grand epics and such, just my two cents worth.

[IdiotsRUs]

Snicker - I just read my earlier post.

I got that sucker down to 110k - and sold it :) AND it's a much better book for it too. Trimming the beastie taught me loads.

[Straka]

I've been strictly keeping all my fantasies around 100K

[Makai_Lightning]

Snicker - I just read my earlier post.

I got that sucker down to 110k - and sold it :) AND it's a much better book for it too. Trimming the beastie taught me loads.
Congradulations! I love reading my stuff and realizing that I can cut out wole paragraphs and re-write sentences to make things shorter... and better. I feel bad about deleting one of my characters from my story, and minimizing two of my other favorite ones, but I promised myself I'd write other "sequals" to play around with other things with other POV characters, which would make me feel better on the inside.

My friend read my work as I was writing it who's also beta-ing now will concur that my cutting, while less detailed, is better.

So you publishing now, perhaps?

[dclary]

I can maybe see chopping it in two, but the tricky part would be ending the first book in a way that wouldn't seem cheesy. Is it bad form to end a book on a cliffhanger?

Bad form? I thought it was mandatory!

[IdiotsRUs]

So you publishing now, perhaps?

Yup

and I HATE series books that don't have a complete arc in and of themselves. No cliffhangers please. Let things resolve in this book with a hint that things will get even worse in eh next.

[GeorgeK]

Seriously, if Tolkine can devide his work into several, so can we.


Is Tolkien's trilogy really three books? If neither "Two Towers" nor "Return of the King" make any sense without "The Fellowship of the Ring", or if "Fellowship" leaves too much untold without the others, is it fair to say that he really did cut it into 3 books? Are they sold as a set or individually?

From the logistical standpoint, I can't argue against anyone's comments about what a publisher and or retailer wants and why. Those sound like justifiable concerns.

I feel like I'm rambling but to the OP, it may depend upon your purpose in writing. If you are trying to make a living at it you will have a different set of priorities as opposed to say me. I have 4 novels approximate lengths of 240, 90, 100 and 110K, none published, no nibbles from either agents (except for one that turned out to be a scam) or publishers. They are all part of a larger story but 1, 3 and 4 would work alone. 2 wouldn't make much sense without 1 but 2 does improve and build on 1 and completes some story arcs. I keep going back and re-edit to improve it becuase I enjoy it. I derive some pleasure and some therapy from it. There aren't many hobbies left that I can physically do. My health is such that I'll probably never see any get published but if I enjoy them then maybe someday someone else will too. If my name is on it, then I'd like to think that I did my best. Depending upon the circumstances I float somewhere between pragmatism and perfectionism.

If your novel is for a publisher or agent, then follow their suggestions and parameters. If writing that particular work for you is really for you, then do what you want. Keep striving to make it better because you will enjoy it more. If it is something that realistically isn't going to get published for another ten years, then the paper constraints may be meaningless. Everything might be on a little hand held electronic device and a downloaded file by then. I think that would detract from the experience because I like the smell of books but...I think you get the idea.

[Gynn]

Man, this thread is old!

Anyway, the problem for me is cutting one book into two. Not much gets resolved at the end of book one right now (in fact, nothing gets resolved), so I've got to find a way to end the book in a way that provides a resolution to the main conflict, yet still imply that there's more on the horizon. The problem is that there's no real place to stop the story until about 160k words in. I may have to re-envision the plot.

It's as if I've painted half of a house blue, only to find out that the owners want it violet. :-o

[dclary]

Man, this thread is old!

Anyway, the problem for me is cutting one book into two. Not much gets resolved at the end of book one right now (in fact, nothing gets resolved), so I've got to find a way to end the book in a way that provides a resolution to the main conflict, yet still imply that there's more on the horizon. The problem is that there's no real place to stop the story until about 160k words in. I may have to re-envision the plot.

It's as if I've painted half of a house blue, only to find out that the owners want it violet. :-o

Maybe you don't resolve anything at the end of book one: you just point the heroes to the possible resolution.

I think of the Golden Compass (at least the movie I saw, I haven't read the books)... At the end of the movie, nothing's been resolved. In fact, things are much more complicated. But she's saved her orphan friends, and she has a plan: try to get to dear old uncle Bond, who is in terrible danger.

So maybe at the end of your "midpoint" what you've given the characters is a DIRECTION to their resolution, and maybe a small achievable goal that you can add whose reward is said direction.

[AuthorGuy]

Works this long are hard to do well. As evidence you can see that most large fantasy tomes are heavily padded with gratuitous imagery, prolix descriptions, scene-setting for its own sake, action that doesn't relate to plot, reaction that doesn't change character and dialogue that just tiredly reiterates the same motifs.
If I'd had any of that stuff in my novels they would have been Bug Crushers too. As it is my first novel was 118K with nothing but the important stuff included. All the things listed above are high on my list of Things Not To Do in writing. I hate reading that filler, so why write it? My second novel was about 80k and my current MS is only 65K and I'm worried if it's too short.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I have a simple rule on things like book length.

If you want someone to give you money; you need to give them what they want.

When it comes right down to it, the why doesn't matter. They could want that length because it's economical to print or because they're into numerology and believe a book of exactly 103,286 words is the perfect length, and the closer it comes to that length the better.

Regardless of the reason, the money spends the same way. Sometimes it's better to just accept things like that and not worry about why they want it that way.