Slaves and masters

[gambit924]

Is writing a bout slaves and the masters who love them considered Erotica, or do you think that's wierd and I shouldn't even go there? Just wondering.
gambit924

[Maryn]

It depends on what the master has the slave do, don't you think? Mr. Maryn and I joke that we should buy lots of black leather clothing, get ourselves several slaves, and get them to clean the basement.

There's certainly an implicit eroticism in the potential, and there's a lot of slave-master erotica out there. If you're interested in it, sure, write it!

Maryn, who's written a little but published only one

[gambit924]

Thanks, I think I will. Anyway it should be interesting since I'm mostly used to writing fantasy. Lol yay!

[HeronW]

if you check out the bdsm scene, you can find information on submission & dominance and the pyschological/emotional/physical parities.

[Brighid]

The Story of O is a highly erotic novel about dominance/submission and I don't recall one scene where there was actual intercourse. There's a bigger market there than you might think.

[veinglory]

If it is sexual, it is erotica. One can of course write about slaves and masters without being sexual....

[Dragon-lady]

You will find some objection to the concept that th slave-master relationship has anything to do with BDSM. Keep in mind that BDSM is by definition voluntary and slavery by definition is not. Which doesn't mean that you can't write about it as though it were. It's fiction aftr all.

[Gray Rose]

Keep in mind that BDSM is by definition voluntary and slavery by definition is not.

Dragon-lady - whose definition? These definitions can stretch very far.

Do you mean that a person who involves another in a non-consentual sexual act involving torture is not a sadist? What are you going to tell all those people who voluntarily call themselves slaves and Masters in this country?

Call it slaves/masters or BDSM, erotica on this topic is hardly anything new, surprising, and even objectionable. It is published regularly and has a rather large readership.

OP - good luck with your project.

[Dragon-lady]

I'm talking about BDSM as is it practiced by consenting adults. I am saying that it is different from rape and/or assault.

I don't quite know why my saying that voluntary BDSM is not rape should bother you. If you want to know the truth about slaves being raped by their masters, go to some of the countries (yes, they exist) where slavery is still regularly practiced.

When you read about sex between slave and master it is almost always fictionalized. It is fact a brutal thing and is a form of rape. Of course, there is also the more brutalized forms of porn that represent that side of it, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Fiction about BDSM is totally different. I didn't say it wasn't popular. Of course, it is. *shrug*

[Gray Rose]

I'm talking about BDSM as is it practiced by consenting adults. I am saying that it is different from rape and/or assault.
I do not think we have an argument here, but I wonder how it pertains to the OP's original topic. She was asking whether writing about "slaves and masters who love them" is considered erotica. Now, if she could be talking about modern day BDSM, or about a fictional, even fantastical, setting, or about a historical setting. In the last two, the scenario of a master/slave loving relationship is possible. Rape and abuse is much more likely. But a loving relationship is possible.

If you want to know the truth about slaves being raped by their masters, go to some of the countries (yes, they exist) where slavery is still regularly practiced.

Been there, done that. You? Have you done any research on the issue?


When you read about sex between slave and master it is almost always fictionalized. It is fact a brutal thing and is a form of rape.
Not always. Neither in fiction nor in real life.
It also depends on the historical setting. Slavery in Rome would be very different from slavery in the Middle East or in the present day Chechnya. These topics are very well researched.

I am not in any way defending slavery. But what you are saying is inaccurate.

I am not sure whether the OP meant she was writing a consensual BDSM story or a fictional story; in both cases writing a loving relationship is very possible, IMHO. The fictional story would have to have a believable premise.

[slcboston]

I think before this question gets answered we need to be clear about our terms and or situations:

master/slave in a historical setting is MUCH different than it is in an BDSM setting. There are of course historical records of masters and slaves having sex, but there are times when it is rape, and other times when it's just questionable. (Thomas Jefferson, anyone?) The problem with a historical master/slave relation has to do with the issue of power, just as it is with contemporary relations between say a college professor and one of his/her students. The question becomes, did the slave have a choice?

Historical records on the subject are mixed, but I would say most of the time the answer to that question was "no." Which makes it rape.

On the other hand, BDSM is entirely consensual and predicated on two basic premises: implicit trust and absolute control. Once anyone utters that "code word" everything stops. It has to. If it doesn't, then you're back into something else again. A good relationship in this arena hinges on the master knowing just how far to push the slave, and the slave knowing that his/her master won't ask them to do anything they're truly uncomfortable with. It's all role play.

Some do play their roles more seriously than others, of course. :)

[Giles English]

Is writing a bout slaves and the masters who love them considered Erotica, or do you think that's wierd and I shouldn't even go there? Just wondering.
gambit924

I think it's a great fantasy, but also a dark one. Real power can be more interesting than consensual power (http://chasteerotica.blogspot.com/2007/03/whats-so-good-about-real-slavery.html).

[Sakamonda]

Most erotica publishers WILL NOT publish books (even fantasies) which depict sex acts that are blatantly illegal/exploitative. (i.e., rape, child rape, bestiality, sex trafficking/sex slavery, etc.). There is a BIG difference between consensual sex between a BDSM master/mistress and his/her "slave" who is a willing participant in dominance sex and out-and-out slavery. Slavery in the vein of what the OP is looking to depict (i.e., the slave is not a willing participant but an exploited prisoner) is probably not going to get published anywhere.

That said, I write erotica that involves consensual BDSM. The key word is "consensual". That is necessary in any publishable erotica these days.

[Giles English]

I have seen some fairly hardcore looking capture stuff on Elloras Cave, but it now seems to be flooded with retreads of Exit to Eden.

I did find one (note the reader advisory):

Slave of the Goblin
Vashti Valant

Slave of the Goblin By Vashti Valant

The Dark Wizard seared Akraz in the foul fires of Mount Murk, twisting him into a creature of darkness. Now Laya has shown him his true face and a path back to the Light. He must choose — betray Laya to forces of Darkness and be rewarded with her as his plaything? Or defy the evil wizard and lose his life to set Laya free? Either way, Akraz knows one thing. A monster such as he can master her body, but never command her love.

Laya, an elven warrior maiden, is determined to capture Akraz the Terrible, the Goblin General with the body of a god and the face of a monster. Akraz turns the tables on her and forces her to pleasure him, bringing her to the edge of bliss. But can she trust her avowed enemy with the safety of her people — and with her heart?

Reader Advisory: This book contains some violence, forced sex and m/m scenes.

Certainly Pink Flamingo publishes non-consensual stuff - I count more than two here: http://www.pinkflamingo.com/EroticNovels/storefront.asp

Then there are Ann Rice's Beauty books.

I suspect that it's more to do with enjoyment than consent. Not many people want to read forced sex which the victim experiences as pure rape - there has to be some spark of enjoyment or kindling of dark urges.

Also, sex from a slave's point of view may well be an art rather than a violation.

Personally, I find totally consensual B&D/S&M whatever you want to call it less interesting than reading about a paintball game.

[Sakamonda]

Whatever they might have done in the past, it is my understanding that Ellora's and all the other major erotica pubs specifically prohibit this kind of depiction in what they publish.

There are "capture" romances, but the captured woman still always consents to the sex in those books.

Whatever your opinion is about forced sex in erotica, the fact is that most legitimate erotica publishers simply will not publish it for legal reasons.

[veinglory]

I would say that is true of most erotic romance publushers and many erotica publishers. But there are also others specifically looking for stuff that pushes the line and however you feel about it there will always be niche markets for crossing right over it.

[Sakamonda]

Another reason besides the legal issues the major erotica publishers won't touch rape, true slavery, etc., is because the vast majority of erotica readers these days are FEMALE. Most women don't get aroused by reading about a woman (or even a man) being sexually violated and abused. That tends to be a male fetish fantasy (and I personally think that if you get off on violating people, maybe you need professional help.)

Note that Giles is male according to his profile. So he has different expectations for erotica than the vast majority of contemporary erotica readers. If there are tiny niche publishers out there that will deal with that kind of fantasy, fine. But the majority will not, because it would piss off their target audience.

[veinglory]

I would disagree. Erotic romance is very strong online but female in general are pretty strong online these days. But prose erotica is a much larger field and most non-romance signs seem anout 50/50. The harder edged (catalogue print, online, mags) stuff still seems to be a strongly male readership. When I go to erotica oriented sites like Desdmonas there is clearly an attitude inclusive of rape fantasy not often found in modern romance where they either exclude it or blur the line with 'forced seduction' and 'it's okay of the hero is redeemed by the end of the book'.

[Sakamonda]

Most male-oriented erotica is visual (i.e., porn). Most female-oriented erotica is narrative (i.e., prose). There are exceptions, of course, but this dichotomy exists because most men are best aroused by visual stimuli and women by emotions evoked by narrative stimuli.

This is the main reason PLAYGIRL magazine failed. Hugh Hefner tried to transfer the successful formula behind PLAYBOY to women, and it just didn't work, because he fundamentally misunderstood what arouses women. I think this is why Giles doesn't understand why rape, et cetera doesn't fly in written erotica. (And most industry demographic studies have shown over and over again that 95% of written erotica's readership is female, for reasons such as a) men don't read anywhere near as much as women do; and b) men usually want pictures with their porn.

[Giles English]

Most male-oriented erotica is visual (i.e., porn). Most female-oriented erotica is narrative (i.e., prose). There are exceptions, of course, but this dichotomy exists because most men are best aroused by visual stimuli and women by emotions evoked by narrative stimuli.

This is the main reason PLAYGIRL magazine failed. Hugh Hefner tried to transfer the successful formula behind PLAYBOY to women, and it just didn't work, because he fundamentally misunderstood what arouses women. I think this is why Giles doesn't understand why rape, et cetera doesn't fly in written erotica. (And most industry demographic studies have shown over and over again that 95% of written erotica's readership is female, for reasons such as a) men don't read anywhere near as much as women do; and b) men usually want pictures with their porn.

No, actually I agree with you - mostly that is.

The male-orientated erotica market is small compared to the female-orientated one, possibly because of what turns people on, but also - I think - because there's a slippery slope from romantic fiction to romantica to erotica (this also holds true in SF/F).

And, yes, male fantasies tend to be different, or have a different emphasis than female ones.

But, as Veinglory points out, there are publishers who cross the line, and readers of both sexes who like it that way.

And, wouldn't it depend on handling? I would have thought that a well written tale of steamy goings on set in a Roman villa is quite different from a capture-and-rape scenario - but I may very well be wrong.

If I were the OP, I would get a handle on what my story is about, then research the market and read the guidelines with care.

[Sakamonda]

And, wouldn't it depend on handling? I would have thought that a well written tale of steamy goings on set in a Roman villa is quite different from a capture-and-rape scenario - but I may very well be wrong.


I suppose anything's possible, but I know as an avid reader of erotica as well as a writer of it, I would still have serious problems with an actual slave/master relationship, even in a historical setting.

What WOULD be cool to me would be a glimpse inside relationships between Roman slaves, or a story set inside a Roman brothel. In Roman times, prostitutes/courtesans actually had a lot of power. They were the only women who were truly "free", since married Roman women were owned by their husbands and slaves by their masters. Courtesans were paid handsomely for their services, owned their own sex businesses, and had access to the wealthy and powerful.