why do non-christians...

[oscuridad]

come to Christian forums?
I was taking to someone the other day and this question came up and I wondered about it. It has been asked here a few times too. Why does someone with my (lack of) a belief set come to a forum like this? This is the answer I gave then and I think it is my answer (I can't speak for the trolls out there who come to forums just to rip it up and be unpleasant - least I hope I can't):

The only people who talk about the big questions these days are particle physicists, anthropologists and people of Faith. And of people of Faith, Christians are usually more open to discourse than a lot of other faith groups. So, where can someone like me go to talk about the big questions, the philosophical questions and have a decent foil for debate? Somewhere like this. Does that make sense. Hope it doesn't sound patronizing 'cause I don't mean it to. I hope it explains something too.

[veinglory]

I can answer from my POV
1) Because Christianity is interesting
2) Because someone posts a subject line that is obviosuly talking about folk like me, thus making me get all nosy.

:)

Not your reason in my case. I am a psychologist and we talk big meaningful stuff pretty routinely, religious or not.

[Sarpedon]

The same reasons that christians come to atheist boards.

[Melisande]

I am a non-believer. That doesn't mean that I live in a coccoon. Lots of people that I know are Christians. I can tell by the way they talk or act. Even so we don't talk about the 'big' issues like faith, philosophy and such. To me it is important to be able to talk about it. I sometimes have the feeling, though, that it might not be the time or the place to speak about it. Here I feel (fairly) comfortable to ask questions and/or raise questions.

It is an explosive subject, however, and I more often than not hesitate to really and honestly speak my mind. Still I find it extremely interesting. Maybe because I am so far away from understanding the concept of 'having faith'.

I guess that in my case it is more about curiosity than anything else. I would be really thrilled to have a deep and penetrating discussion with someone who believes, without being jumped upon because my lack of the same. 'Til yet it has never happened.

[Appalachian Writer]

Perhaps it's more than that. Perhaps all of us need to find out. Basic human curiosity tends to lead us. Are Christians more open to discourse? You betcha. Christianity is just that, conversation. We sit in churches and listen to the message; we mull it over in our minds, considering the pros and cons of what we've heard, and then we decide whether we believe it. We are told to be watchful, discerning, about those who claim to have the truth, to read our guidebook and consider whether this or that interpretation meets our standards of belief. Christians are discourse, discussion. The faith is passed in that way. Just some food for thought.

Melisande, I invite a discussion anytime, and I'm not in the habit of "jump[ing]" on people. I believe what I believe, and you are free to believe what you believe. You are also free to ask about my faith and how I came to be a Christian, what evidence I might have that there is a heaven and a hell, and my attitude about conversion. Contact me anytime. I think I would enjoy a healthy debate on the subject.

[Melisande]

Melisande, I invite a discussion anytime, and I'm not in the habit of "jump[ing]" on people. I believe what I believe, and you are free to believe what you believe. You are also free to ask about my faith and how I came to be a Christian, what evidence I might have that there is a heaven and a hell, and my attitude about conversion. Contact me anytime. I think I would enjoy a healthy debate on the subject.


Thanks. You have a PM as we speak. I really appreciate it, because I have millions of questions.

[Carole]

I agree with just about everything said here. Many people who aren't of the Christian faith are students of many religions. Personally, I can't stand knowing about something I'm not moderately well educated in, within reason. You can't really have an intelligent conversation or debate if you know nothing about the other side.

Plus, as I understand Christianity, helping to educate others is a fairly big deal and some view it as their responsibility. I know that my dad would be a very sad man if he thought he could have helped someone see what he believes to be the most precious truth, and he neglected to humbly explain his faith to them.

[Roger J Carlson]

I guess that in my case it is more about curiosity than anything else. I would be really thrilled to have a deep and penetrating discussion with someone who believes, without being jumped upon because my lack of the same. 'Til yet it has never happened.Pat and I have tried very hard to make this forum such a place. Not everyone will agree that we've succeeded, but we welcome open and respectful discussion.

[flutecrafter]

Pat and I have tried very hard to make this forum such a place. Not everyone will agree that we've succeeded, but we welcome open and respectful discussion.
I'd say y'all have done a pretty fair job. :)

Now to address a few points of interest to me.

Sarpedon: perhaps some do. although I find it to be an interesting
analogy, since when I wander over to various occult forums, I'm usually there
for two reasons; to give an actual christian perspective as needed,
and to make myself available for folks looking to exit that life.

Melisande, I would just like you to know that I am not in the habit of
jumping on folks either. If you have a question and don't see me
around for a bit, feel free to send a message to flag my attention. :)


Mark

[flutecrafter]

and thanks for the reminder, btw. :)

I haven't wandered over there in a while...

*runs off*

[III]

Good thread Oscuridad. We're all on this journey through life together so we may as well talk about it and try to figure it out together.

And Roger and Pat, you are exceptional shepherds.

[callalily61]

What III said.

[Monkey]

Why do I come to Christian forums?

On this board, I don't actually come and browse in the Christian section. The topics are visible from the main board, and sometimes they seem interesting, so I check them out.

Long ago, I used to go and debate Christianity or to try and explain that Paganism does not = Satanism. My reasoning was two-fold: 1) I hoped that an open dialogue with an actual Pagan would cause people to rethink their prejudices, and 2) too many people accept whatever religion is handed down to them from their parents or assume whatever religion is popular in their town without ever analyzing it. I wanted to get people THINKING. I didn't care what religion they were, so long as they really understood and thought about that religion.

In my experience, most Christians were NOT open to discourse.

Eventually, I realized that faith was a highly individual thing, and that trying to rob someone of theirs was simply not right. If someone is searching, then I will tell all I know, but if someone is decided and happy with their decision, I'd hate to shake their faith. I'd go to some great lengths not to.


<snip>
...when I wander over to various occult forums, I'm usually there
for two reasons; to give an actual christian perspective as needed,
and to make myself available for folks looking to exit that life. <snip>


The "Christian perspective" thing I can understand (very similar to my offering the Pagan one), though I got tired of those debates years ago.

But "looking to exit that life"?

You do realize that when you say "occult", you are using a term that encompasses many, many religions, and even more ways of life, right?

My way of life, for instance, revolves very strongly around family and community. I say my prayers every night and do services reguarly. My marriage, my faith, and my joy in life are all very, very strong.

I would hate to "exit that way of life", and I would suspect that if a Pagan were looking for information on Christianity, it would be very easy to find...easier, even, than if a Christian were searching for answers about Paganism (though the internet is certainly closing that gap).

[BrookieCookie777]

I think it's great that other folks stop by. We get to share opinions and you never know, it might just help someone. And many times, we can learn from the other folks too.

[PattiTheWicked]

As a non-Christian, I don't generally log on to AW and say "Oh, I think I'll see what the Christians are chatting about." However, I do click on "New Posts", and if I see something of interest, I'll stop in and check it out, no matter what forum it's in.

I'd probably never weigh in on anything to do with Christianity itself, because I've never actually *been* a Christian, but any other subject seems fair game. Despite philosophical and spiritual differences, there are any number of topics that we non-Christians can chat about with Christians. Seems silly not to share an opinion just because my religion isn't listed at the top of the screen.

[Gravity]

Thirty years ago I came out of hardcore athiesm to born-again Christianity; as Jerry Garcia put it, what a long, strange trip it's been. :)

Along the way I dabbled in just about everything you can think of, save satanism. That said, although I don't have much time to engage in a PM back-and-forth (my agent is on me to get my latest novel done and off), I do pop in here from time to time.

So to everyone here, welcome.

[JoNightshade]

I like having non-Christians join in our "Christian" discussions. Disagreement sparks discussion and causes us to have to think hard about what we believe, and really defend it in a concrete way. It's good mental exercise and helps us hone our skillz. ;) I think one flaw of some Christian communities is that everyone agrees so much that talk becomes stagnant and inbred. Right now I'm in a small bible study where we basically agree about everything. I try to mix it up by posing some interesting questions, but my attempts to do so are usually met with shocked stares. Haha.

Example: Last night my compatriots were talking about the concept of rapture and how people who were "left behind" would react. I said, "Hey, what if, instead of bodily disappearing, only our souls were taken? So as far as the rest of the world could see, it looked like we all dropped dead of a plague or something?" After my group finished staring at me, someone said, "Do you REALLY BELIEVE THAT?"

::Jo bangs head against wall::

[BrookieCookie777]

Cute, Jo! Keep asking those questions. There's nothing wrong with curiosity! The bible says the dead in Christ's bodies will rise, but, I'm not sure what it says about the living. That's a toughie. Excellent question to ask!

[IceCreamEmpress]

And of people of Faith, Christians are usually more open to discourse than a lot of other faith groups.

Is that your experience? I wish it were mine. One of the things I hold strongly to in my own Christian faith is that there is no such thing as a bad or evil question. I wish more of my co-religionists shared this point of view.

In my own experience, I find that the average Buddhist and pagan groups are even more open to respectful discussion than the average Christian group.

Here at AbsoluteWrite, though, I continue to be delighted by the respect and depth of the discussions. It's very heartening.

[JoNightshade]

Well the cool thing about this forum is that we're all writers. So for the most part, we're the kind of people who love asking questions and we love learning people's answers and motives, even when we don't agree. Yay!

[III]

And we know the difference between yours and your's.

[Death Wizard]

I'm a non-Christian who happens to live in upstate South Carolina, so I admit that my nerves are rubbed raw. But my experience with (Evangelical) Christians has not been as happy or mutually respectful as the tone of this thread has been. What I most commonly hear is how sad they are for me and my family.

[heyjude]

I'm a non-Christian who happens to live in upstate South Carolina, so I admit that my nerves are rubbed raw. But my experience with (Evangelical) Christians has not been as happy or mutually respectful as the tone of this thread has been. What I most commonly hear is how sad they are for me and my family.

Ouch. I'm so sorry to hear that that's been your experience.

As an Evangelical Christian, I can tell you that's a crummy thing to say, and probably crummier to hear. Do you mind if I ask in what context you meet up with these people?

[benbradley]

My beliefs are definitely not Christian, and out of general "respect for my fellow writer" I rarely post here, though I often see and sometimes read threads in the Christian forum when they show up under "new posts."

But there was the thread about dogs going to Heaven and that preacher's wife telling the girl whose dog died that dogs don't go to Heaven and to "get over it" - reading that broke my heart, and I had to respond. Even if I don't neccesarily believe in the truth of the links I posted there, it's something I would WANT to be true.

But in general, Christianity is a big part of Western society (as by far its most popular religion), and I feel it behoove everyone in our society to know more about what believers say as well as what the Bible says.

[Pat~]

Great thread topic, Osc. Personally, I enjoy it when nonbelievers wander in and add their perspective or ask questions. It just makes for a really stimulating discussion. The key thing is respect--on both sides. I'll never forget my first venture into the Christian forum when I first visited this site several years ago. To be honest, it was pretty sad. There were three or four alleged Christians and one unbeliever posting. The unbeliever was making 'annoying' posts, and the Christians were all making digs and posting about how they might run him off. Other than that, not much was happening. It's been good to see this forum gradually evolve into a place that is more welcoming and encourages respectful, thought-provoking discussions.

[Death Wizard]

Ouch. I'm so sorry to hear that that's been your experience.

As an Evangelical Christian, I can tell you that's a crummy thing to say, and probably crummier to hear. Do you mind if I ask in what context you meet up with these people?

I appreciate your saying that. From my perspective, it's the majority of Christians that I run into around here. If you're an Evangelical Christian and you like being around like-minded people who have zero doubt about anything, then hustle on over here.

One woman in a grocery store became very concerned when she asked me where my kids were going for summer camp. She insisted several times that they come to her Baptist church. I finally told her that we're Buddhists (my daughters were adopted from Cambodia) and that we have a temple that we go to. And she said, "I don't know nuddin' 'bout no Boo-day-zum stuff." And I replied, "Mam, I'm not surprised."

(Sorry, but I love telling that story.)

[flutecrafter]

The "Christian perspective" thing I can understand (very similar to my offering the Pagan one), though I got tired of those debates years ago.

But "looking to exit that life"?

You do realize that when you say "occult", you are using a term that encompasses many, many religions, and even more ways of life, right?

My way of life, for instance, revolves very strongly around family and community. I say my prayers every night and do services reguarly. My marriage, my faith, and my joy in life are all very, very strong.

I would hate to "exit that way of life", and I would suspect that if a Pagan were looking for information on Christianity, it would be very easy to find...easier, even, than if a Christian were searching for answers about Paganism (though the internet is certainly closing that gap).
and yet, you were just saying that if someone was looking you'd share with them.. :)
and Yes, I do indeed understand what that umbrella encompasses :)

Now there is one small issue here that I want to mention.
Could an occultist find data on christianity? sure.
How many christians would they find that wouldn't be too freaked out
by talking to them?
So... who better to reach out to them than an ex-witch? :)

Seriously, I still get strange looks when church folk learn of my past.. :P

ttyl
mark

[IceCreamEmpress]

How many christians would they find that wouldn't be too freaked out
by talking to them?


That says a lot more about the limitations of many Christians than it does about the limitations of other spiritual paths, at least in my opinion.

[JoNightshade]

How many christians would they find that wouldn't be too freaked out
by talking to them?

Honestly, most of the Christians I know would be thrilled to talk to anyone (pagan or whatever) who had questions.

I think we need to separate out "cultural" Christians from genuinely "seeking" Christians. Our society is so heavily influenced by Christianity that for a lot of people, it is more of a cultural pursuit than it is an actual relationship (with Christ). This is true particularly in the "Bible belt" areas of America, where church going is basically your social circle. I think these are the kinds of people Mr. Deathwizard has been dealing with, which is why they have the attitude, "Oh, you're not a Christian? What a weirdo! How sad you want to go to hell!" It's very similar to the way people react to my mother's vegetarianism: "You don't eat meat? What a weirdo! How sad you don't want to enjoy this yummy stuff!" And when someone thinks the way THEY do things is right and the way it "ought to be," they tend to be pretty annoying to people who don't live that way. (My mom gets all sorts of people telling her that you "HAVE" to eat meat or you'll die of malnutrition, nevermind that she's taken courses on doing it right...)

On the other hand, we have Christians who may or may not have grown up in a Christian community, who are sincerely devoted to pursuing a Christlike life. For them, it's not just about religious ceremony and fitting in with the community, it's about seeking truth and developing a relationship with Christ. I think these are the people who would love to have a discussion with non-Christians and to share what they have discovered in the process of following Christ. And if you're not interested... well, maybe we think you're missing out, and we'll probably pray for you, but we're not going to press the issue.

[IceCreamEmpress]

And if you're not interested... well, maybe we think you're missing out, and we'll probably pray for you, but we're not going to press the issue.


Sadly, I think there are many people in the world who have forgotten that witnessing their faith should be focused on sharing their own positives, not on lecturing other people about their perceived negatives.

[JoNightshade]

I just try to look at what Jesus did. He told the truth (you need to repent and turn to God) to everyone. He debated with the Pharisees when they asked him questions, but he never went out of his way to antagonize them. When people rejected his message, he left and went somewhere where people did want to hear him. A lot of the time, he let his actions speak for him. When John the Baptist sent someone to ask Jesus if he was the Messiah, Jesus didn't say "Yep, that's me." He said, "Lame men walk and blind men see. What do YOU think?" (Paraphrasing.)

If we act differently, if we love our neighbors, if we are gracious and understanding, if we're not hypocrites... people will notice the difference and they will ask questions.

::Jo blinks and then looks around::

Oops, sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

[oscuridad]

I have to say I have met tolerance and intolerance from all faiths and creeds, including atheists. It always disappoints me, wherever it is found. I try to be a good Philosophical Taoist (as opposed to one who sees Taoism as a Religion, which it is not), which is not as easy as it sounds. I don't think we get the same kind of Hellfire Evangelists that seem to be everywhere in the US, but the only really troubling encounters I have had with people's beliefs were a guy who thought Mental Illness (such as a psychosis of some kind) was caused by a lack of true faith, and a teacher who told a class that when a child was born with a disability it was God taking vengeance on the parents... in the class was a girl in a wheelchair - the teacher was out of the college within an hour. And I work with a guy who says he's a buddhist - obviously of the psycho corporate climbing sect of Buddhism that we don't hear much about these days..

[Judg]

I've never jumped all over somebody for not being Christian. Just as I would appreciate it if they would not jump all over me for being one, although it has happened. I mean, it was Jesus who said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

On the other hand, not all questioners are looking for answers. Some of them are just looking for fights. Them I just ignore as much as possible. If I start playing in their sandbox, I'll sink to their level.

I actually caused a couple (not married) to break up once. She wanted to ask questions, he wanted to give me a rough time. She was so annoyed with him she showed him the door. I guess she hadn't seen that nasty side of him before.

I think it is quite true, the distinction made between Christians of culture and Christians of conviction. The former are more likely to get nasty, because they haven't internalized the message. It's a shame, because they give the faith a bad name.

[Soccer Mom]

Although I am a Christian, I understand the feeling of "pressure and disapproval." You see, I'm not Baptist. And I live in a town with 1, 250 people and four Baptist churches. I have felt a ridiculous amount of pressure to turn away from my denomination. It's a source of amusement at my church that they are so scandalized by the fact that our church allows homosexuals to attend and even has :gasp: a female pastor.

My wild and crazy sect? First United Methodists. Oh yeah. :D What a wild bunch.

Intolerance comes in many forms.

[Dragon-lady]

Honestly, most of the Christians I know would be thrilled to talk to anyone (pagan or whatever) who had questions.Ah, but what about talking to them if they didn't have questions--as in having a simple human conversation. Maybe that pagan doesn't have any question and would just like to be treated with simple ordinary respect--not likely to happen and why the majority of pagans hide their religion.

I have had more than a few unfortunate experiences with Christians being convinced that people should be "evangelized" whether they want to be or not. I'm sure that happens in all religions but it's with Christians that I've run into it.

[Judg]

DL, I treat everybody the same. Mind you, I don't regularly deal with rapists or serial killers, so maybe I'd have trouble in some cases... ;)

I happily discuss religion when it comes up and if the other person is a willing participant and happily discuss other topics otherwise. You realize you could be talking to a huge number of Christians who aren't offending you, simply because they haven't drawn notice to themselves? Just a little food for thought. It's always the socially insensitive people who stand out.

I do mention it more frequently that I am a Christian than I used to perhaps. I haven't had any negative feedback, overt or subtle. But I am not forcing the issue, I think it's more the assurance that comes as you get older. I am more confident in who and what I am than I used to be. Please note that I am not American, and the culture is a little different here. There are no areas where evangelicals are the default culture, so those of us who are tend to be so more by conviction. Not that everybody is an ideal specimen, but hey, God puts up with me so I can't fault him for putting up with them...

[Dragon-lady]

I wouldn't have stopped by the board if the thread hadn't referred to non-christians, which I am. I suppose that answers the original question, as well. Whether my mentioning my very negative experiences with christians offends some people, well, I'm sorry to hear that. So... blessed be whatever your religion.

[Judg]

??? Who was offended?

[III]

Ah, but what about talking to them if they didn't have questions--as in having a simple human conversation. Maybe that pagan doesn't have any question and would just like to be treated with simple ordinary respect--not likely to happen and why the majority of pagans hide their religion.


Actually it happens on AW every single day. We all have different backgrounds and beliefs and we all sit around having regular, respectful conversations on all manner of things. I would expect you'll experience that type of positive dialogue in every forum on AW.

[heyjude]

It really breaks my heart to hear so many say they have such bad experiences with Christians.

Anyone wanting to have an open and respectful dialogue is certainly welcome to pm me! Whether you have questions or just want to chat...

[flutecrafter]

Ah, but what about talking to them if they didn't have questions--as in having a simple human conversation. Maybe that pagan doesn't have any question and would just like to be treated with simple ordinary respect--not likely to happen and why the majority of pagans hide their religion.

That depends upon who they decide to talk with I reckon. :)

anyway, I apologize for derailing the thread.


*wanders off again*

[Monkey]

Yes, I do indeed understand what that umbrella encompasses

It wasn't the sharing of your religion, but the "that way of life" bit that I had issue with.

You understand that that umbrella encompasses thousands....millions...my way of life? Great. Now can you tell me what my way of life is? If you can't tell me beyond what I've already told you, then maybe you shouldn't be making such huge generalizations.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is because I grew up in a town nicknamed by its citizens as "The Buckle of the Bible Belt". I have had people assume all sorts of terrible things about my "way of life". I've even had a man yell at me that unless I followed Jesus, I would never know love and never have love in my life, because "Jesus is love". My response was that my life was full of love, so if Jesus was love, then I followed Him already. The guy started quoting scripture at me at top volume, so I walked away.

Bleh.

I've put up with some real characters, but the thing that bothers me is that the people who really get hostile aren't the people who really understand the faith they're trying to shove down my throat. Joe said it beautifully:


I think we need to separate out "cultural" Christians from genuinely "seeking" Christians. Our society is so heavily influenced by Christianity that for a lot of people, it is more of a cultural pursuit than it is an actual relationship (with Christ). This is true particularly in the "Bible belt" areas of America, where church going is basically your social circle.

She is SO right. It's almost always, like 99.999% of the time, those "cultural" Christians that want to get in your face or say you're going to Hell if you don't convert, and right this instant. That is why I used to try so hard to reach out...to get people to think, and to convince them that Paganism wasn't Satanism. Of course, many of those I talked to had definite "either you're with us or you're against us" attitudes. I could quote the Bible all day, and all I'd get back was "saved by faith" and another push to get me to convert, right then and there. It's maddening.

Luckily, I haven't had these sorts of experiences here on AW. The people here tend to be much more tolerant of and even, usually, knowledgeable about other faiths. But even here, I usually keep my religion kinda quiet. I don't want a label...I don't want to color the way people view my posts, my family, me. I don't want people reading something about my beautiful children and then thinking that I'm raising them in "that kind of life"...not where "that" is something that needs to be escaped.

I guess I'm just sort of rubbed raw, too.

I hope I'm not offending anyone. If I have, I'll stay off this thread for a while. The people here who I've interacted with on a (slightly) more personal level have all been absolutely wonderful, tolerant people, and I have nothing but respect for you guys. I'm just relating some of my own personal experiences, and where I'm coming from, as relates to the OP.

[Haphazard]

Monkey, I don't see that you've offended anybody, although I am kind of new to the thread.

Why do nonchristians end up on this board? Because of threads like this, of course!

I'm a regular on the YA board and I don't regularly write YA, so it's not like I'm new to sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.

I'm kind of surprised more Jews haven't shown up in this thread, because I know so many of them on AW, though I'm not surprised by the diversity we've found. Writers tend to be diverse...

Anyway, a lot of nonchristians have to live in countries that are full of them. Even though the states are legally not religious, some areas of the country aren't so accepting, so we end up going to nonthreatening AW to try to understand a little about these threatening people in our lives. From reading these posts, I see that we've had mixed success.

I've had mixed success with people in real life. The way I figure it, there are crazies in every religion, and by numbers, because there are more Christians here, there would be more crazy Christians. Although, I completely understand the cultural Christian thing. There's some of that where I live.

[Shady Lane]

'cause I love Christian writing even though I'm not Christian.

It's about the writing. We've got plenty of adults over on the YA boards. :)

[Miguelito]

Not being a Christian myself, if I'm trying to write from the viewpoint of a character that is Christian, I need to know how they think.

There are times when it's useful for education: like when there was Davinci Code misinformation out there about Jesus. Who knows better about biblical research than a Christian would?

And, I'm also an educator. Lots of biblical literalism and I try to set the record straight to get rid of misinformation when it's brought up -- like creationism -- while ensuring that no, it does not run contrary to Christianity, just literal interpretations of the bible. I realize that the reformation in Europe did a whole lot to bring rationality to the religion and that most Christians are not mindless drones. Give them the evidence while explaining the fundamentals of the science, treat them with respect, and they'll be smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

[flutecrafter]

Monkey,

First, no I am not offended, and your post shows some of why I do what
I do. That includes educating church folks.
( Yes, book is in the rough draft stage.. hoping to get past the current block soon. )


Second, I apologize if my wording was imprecise enough to offend you.
I meant no offense.

Lastly then I'll leave it alone:
While there are indeed an incredible number of differing religions on the magic paths,
and thusly none of us knows all of them, I walked those paths myself for
several years. Not only do you have the cultural 'christians' or as I labeled
them some years back; "churchians" to deal with, but those sincere christians that
have no understanding of the path you walk. Worse yet, those that are sincere
but have read the rather misleading works of various authors.

Okay, I'm gonna shut up now and get back to my rough draft to the church.

ttyl
mark

[Dragon-lady]

What I don't understand is why Christians are so convinced that because I am of a different religion I want them "reaching out to me" whether they happen to be a former witch or not. For me, until Christianity recognizes the mother in godhood as much as the father, they will reach out to empty air. But I'm not going to go yell at them on a street corner or "reach out to them," implying they are so clueless they can't figure out their religious beliefs for themselves.

And that is where I end up in where this conversation has gone--that I am invariably insulted by the Christian insistance that if I don't agree with their beliefs, I am evil and doomed to am eternity in their hell. It makes a reasonable conversation difficult.

Edit: Sorry. Obviously, I don't belong in the Christian forum, and I'll leave now having said my peace. :)

[JoNightshade]

And that is where I end up in where this conversation has gone--that I am invariably insulted by the Christian insistance that if I don't agree with their beliefs, I am evil and doomed to am eternity in their hell. It makes a reasonable conversation difficult

From what you've said here, it seems like what you find most offensive about Christians is not necessarily what they do, but what they believe. And it's true, we do believe that Christ is the only way to heaven. For what it's worth, we also believe that everyone is sinful (not evil), including us.

But you can't really expect people to change their private beliefs so as not to offend you. That's just not rational.

[Pat~]

What I don't understand is why Christians are so convinced that because I am of a different religion I want them "reaching out to me" whether they happen to be a former witch or not. For me, until Christianity recognizes the mother in godhood as much as the father, they will reach out to empty air. But I'm not going to go yell at them on a street corner or "reach out to them," implying they are so clueless they can't figure out their religious beliefs for themselves.

And that is where I end up in where this conversation has gone--that I am invariably insulted by the Christian insistance that if I don't agree with their beliefs, I am evil and doomed to am eternity in their hell. It makes a reasonable conversation difficult.

Edit: Sorry. Obviously, I don't belong in the Christian forum, and I'll leave now having said my peace. :)

You are always welcome here; don't feel you need to leave simply because you've shared some negative experiences.

[Toothpaste]

I visit because I have a limited understanding of religions, I never took a course in university, and though I am jewish, I did not have a very religious upbringing. I like best the debates between Christians who really "know their stuff", who quote passages of the bible, and discuss what certain texts may or may not mean. I just find it interesting. I like to learn about other cultures, religions and people. I know you aren't supposed to talk religion and politics at a dinner party for example, but I am always fascinated to learn about the beliefs of others. Also religion plays a huge part, especially these days, in politics. So I want to learn as much as I can about what people are fighting over.

I have friends who are very religious and friends who are not at all. I think so long as you treat others with respect and empathy, you're a pretty cool cat.

[Pat~]

What I don't understand is why Christians are so convinced that because I am of a different religion I want them "reaching out to me" whether they happen to be a former witch or not.

Just an additional thought...I don't think that Christians who 'reach out to you' are doing it because they think you want them to. Usually Christians have no idea of the response they'll get when they share their faith. I do think they do it because they care about you, though. If that caring exasperates you, it's probably because of the underlying assumption in Christianity that people need Christ. It's an 'offensive' message--first, that people need something outside of themselves, and second, that this need is universal. Christ Himself said it would be a stumbling block to those who don't believe. The gospel will always 'offend' in this way; that's why Christ said that unless one becomes 'as a little child' he'll never enter the kingdom of heaven. But just because the message is offensive, doesn't mean people need to be offensive in the way they share it. It's one thing to reach out to people; it's another to scream Bible verses and hellfire sermons at them.

[aruna]

And that is where I end up in where this conversation has gone--that I am invariably insulted by the Christian insistance that if I don't agree with their beliefs, I am evil and doomed to am eternity in their hell. It makes a reasonable conversation difficult.



Just to set the record straight: not all Christians insist on this.
I, non-Christian, have had many wonderful conversations with Christians. And I love to share in their services.

[Albedo]

Because with an intriguing fragment of a thread title like the one above showing up in the new posts page, who could resist?

[rugcat]

Because there are occasionally interesting topics that affect people of all faiths and even people of no faith. I have found Christian viewpoints on subjects that have made me think -- I may not literally believe in their interpretation, but thoughtful Christians who, for example, discuss what Jesus means to them, may well set off my own trains of thought concerning, love, the divine, and other serious concerns.

And occasionally, I feel compelled to answer certain posts of a fundamentalist bent -- those who have such an invincible certainty that they express either contempt or sorrow for others who may believe differently than they, no matter how thoughtful and deeply held the beliefs of those others. I have difficulty with fundamentalists of all stripes, whatever their religion, as I do for atheists who blindly mock the very possibility of something more than mechanistic life.

[Dragon-lady]

If that caring exasperates you, it's probably because of the underlying assumption in Christianity that people need Christ. It's an 'offensive' message--first, that people need something outside of themselves, and second, that this need is universal.
I beg your pardon? Only Christians believe that one needs something outside oneself? The truly sad thing is that I'm sure you didn't mean that to be insulting and don't even see why it is. But I assure you that one does not make such statements to someone they care about.

And aruna is right that not all Christians have such beliefs, but I run into the ones who do so frequently, sometimes I forget that. There are kind and tolerant people in all faiths. I do think that is so. Unfortunately, all faiths have some of the other kind as well.

[Pat~]

I beg your pardon? Only Christians believe that one needs something outside oneself? The truly sad thing is that I'm sure you didn't mean that to be offensive and don't even see why it is.

And aruna is right that not all Christians have such beliefs, but I run into the ones who do so frequently, sometimes I forget that. There are kind and tolerant people in all faiths. I do think that is so. Unfortunately, all faiths have some of the other kind as well.

No, I didn't claim that Christianity is the only faith that believes one needs something outside of oneself. I simply claimed that that concept is an offensive concept to many people.

And yes, there are kind and tolerant people of all faiths. There are also intolerant people of every stripe.

[DarkKnightJRK]

For me, I use the "Find New Posts" button mostly and I found this thread. :)

My guess for others, though, is that some are argumentative and want to have a good...well, depending on the maturity of the posters involved, it could either be a debate or a flame match. I usually try to keep it as much of a debate as possible.

[HeronW]

I'm pagan, my partner is Jewish, my oldest friend a staunch Catholic. I wander in for a good discussion. :}

[Death Wizard]

What I don't understand is why Christians are so convinced that because I am of a different religion I want them "reaching out to me" whether they happen to be a former witch or not. For me, until Christianity recognizes the mother in godhood as much as the father, they will reach out to empty air. But I'm not going to go yell at them on a street corner or "reach out to them," implying they are so clueless they can't figure out their religious beliefs for themselves.

And that is where I end up in where this conversation has gone--that I am invariably insulted by the Christian insistance that if I don't agree with their beliefs, I am evil and doomed to am eternity in their hell. It makes a reasonable conversation difficult.

Edit: Sorry. Obviously, I don't belong in the Christian forum, and I'll leave now having said my peace. :)

I have to say that I agree with this. It's difficult to be friendly with someone who believes you're going to burn in hell for eternity.

[Appalachian Writer]

Not being a Christian myself, if I'm trying to write from the viewpoint of a character that is Christian, I need to know how they think.

There are times when it's useful for education: like when there was Davinci Code misinformation out there about Jesus. Who knows better about biblical research than a Christian would?

And, I'm also an educator. Lots of biblical literalism and I try to set the record straight to get rid of misinformation when it's brought up -- like creationism -- while ensuring that no, it does not run contrary to Christianity, just literal interpretations of the bible. I realize that the reformation in Europe did a whole lot to bring rationality to the religion and that most Christians are not mindless drones. Give them the evidence while explaining the fundamentals of the science, treat them with respect, and they'll be smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

I'll admit that there are some Christians who are dependent on their pastors when it comes to the words of the Bible. I know several. As you say here, most "are not mindless drones." Most Christians have had an extraordinary experience; they've seen evidence that confirms their beliefs, and they've felt things that confounds logic. Whether we're writers or seamstresses, policemen or convicts, we were seekers, maybe even non-Christians visiting Christian conversations on the boards at AW. Everyone should and is welcome, welcome to engage in conversation, welcome to ask questions, and welcome to just listen, or in this case, watch.

[Melisande]

Pat and I have tried very hard to make this forum such a place. Not everyone will agree that we've succeeded, but we welcome open and respectful discussion.

You do, and you have my utmost respect for it.

[flutecrafter]

What I don't understand is why Christians are so convinced that because I am of a different religion I want them "reaching out to me" whether they happen to be a former witch or not. For me, until Christianity recognizes the mother in godhood as much as the father, they will reach out to empty air. But I'm not going to go yell at them on a street corner or "reach out to them," implying they are so clueless they can't figure out their religious beliefs for themselves.

And that is where I end up in where this conversation has gone--that I am invariably insulted by the Christian insistance that if I don't agree with their beliefs, I am evil and doomed to am eternity in their hell. It makes a reasonable conversation difficult.

Edit: Sorry. Obviously, I don't belong in the Christian forum, and I'll leave now having said my peace. :)no reason for you not to be here.:)

I haven't said you would want me to be reaching out to you. It is not for me
to decide, it is for the individual to decide for themselves.
My job is to make sure there is a christian around that won't freak out
if they want to talk about it or to be.. reached out to.. :)
It does happen occasionally. :)

mark

[ColoradoGuy]

Religious striving is about many things--right and wrong, good and evil, the nature of existence--and discussions about these things help us understand ourselves by explaining ourselves to others. I enjoy conversations like that. But Christianity, especially Protestant Christianity, has long been the dominant religious culture in America, so discussions of Christianity easily take on political overtones. Those of us who are not members of that dominant religious culture are dismayed at the drum beaters who insist America is a Christian nation, at the profoundly ahistorical and antagonistic statements we hear from politicians who say things like "freedom requires religion," as one candidate recently did. These things make us wary, and weary, too.

This conflation of religion and politics is an old one. My own religious forbearers were whipped, pilloried, branded, and sometimes hung by the colonial governments dominated by Puritans in Massachusetts and Anglicans in the Chesapeake region. Even today prominent Evangelical Christians insist there is nothing wrong with posting the Ten Commandments on a court house wall, even though the first four of those commandments have nothing to do with American laws and everything to do with religious tests. They insist on this because "we are a Christian nation."

So there is a lot of baggage in discussions between Christians and those who do not call themselves Christians. Some of that baggage is on display in this thread. Not the least of these is the definition of a Christian, of who gets to decide what that means. As a Quaker, I consider myself a Christian, but I am quite certain few, if any of you would agree. (In fact, some Quakers do not call themselves Christian--we have a small but very broad tent.) The most off-putting issue for many is the insistence that there is only one way to find God. I don't think that is so.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

come to Christian forums?
I was taking to someone the other day and this question came up and I wondered about it. It has been asked here a few times too. Why does someone with my (lack of) a belief set come to a forum like this? This is the answer I gave then and I think it is my answer (I can't speak for the trolls out there who come to forums just to rip it up and be unpleasant - least I hope I can't):

The only people who talk about the big questions these days are particle physicists, anthropologists and people of Faith. And of people of Faith, Christians are usually more open to discourse than a lot of other faith groups. So, where can someone like me go to talk about the big questions, the philosophical questions and have a decent foil for debate? Somewhere like this. Does that make sense. Hope it doesn't sound patronizing 'cause I don't mean it to. I hope it explains something too.



When I was a non-Christian, about a year ago, I was a zealous fool who wanted to right what I believed were a bunch of wrongs. I came to this forum to debate people and try to get them to see how they were wrong.

The thing is, I never used this particular strategy with ANYONE ELSE. Only Christians I had a problem with.

I read a book a few months ago, Lord Foulgrin's Letters by Randy Alcorn. In it, I found a statement that rang very true. It says that people go to lots of colleges to learn their ABC's -- Anything But Christianity. I never realized until a few months ago that when I came to make Christians believe what I thought to be 'right', I was coming ONLY to Christians. Other religions I left alone. This has led me to realize that Christianity is right, at least the way Jesus preached it. If my other religious beliefs, that I held a year ago, were only interested in dissuading people from Jesus Christ, then truly, I am convinced that Jesus is really Lord.

What I'm saying is that, in my own case, when I had rejected the Lord, I came back to the Christian forums to dissuade others from the One True God and His Son. That was my reason for coming here when I was not saved. Now that I am a Christian, I come here for support and for encouragement ... and if possible, to be an encouragement to others.


EDITED TO ADD:

This post is intended to explain my own personal reasons for having come to the Christian forums when I was not a Christian myself. I held no ill intents toward anyone else, and if you are offended or think I'm implying or inferring you are debating Christianity for the same reasons as I did, I humbly apologize for the misunderstanding. I simply wanted to explain my own reasons for what I did, not imply that other particular people were doing the same thing for the same reasons.

:)

[small axe]

I sometimes wonder: Do "non-Christians" coming to a "Christian" forum get a more friendly welcome than "Christians" recieve when going to a specifically "non-Christian" forum? :)

And I wonder what our expectations would be? And why?

And I wonder how the expectations differ from the reality? And why?

[Bartholomew]

I can't speak for other non-Christians but I come here out of curiosity and boredom. I'm fairly sure I've never caused trouble, nor do I intend to.

I consider people to be human, regardless of religion. The idea that I shouldn't come here because I'm one thing and the other people here are another is utterly foreign to me.

[Roger J Carlson]

I sometimes wonder: Do "non-Christians" coming to a "Christian" forum get a more friendly welcome than "Christians" recieve when going to a specifically "non-Christian" forum? :)

And I wonder what our expectations would be? And why?

And I wonder how the expectations differ from the reality? And why?I think it varies from board to board. (I assume you are including all internet boards, and not just AW.) I can tell you, however, that a few years ago, non-Christians did not receive a friendly welcome here on the Christian Forum. That makes me sad. I've said before that I hope that's no longer the case, but I know there are still people who don't feel comfortable here, and that makes me even sadder.

As for expectations, I think many Christians, particularly those who spend most of their time around other Christians, believe the Christian worldview is still highly regarded. Sadly, this is no longer the case. As Christians, we are guilty by association with many of the high-profile scandals that have rocked modern Christianity.

I'm not complaining about this. Jesus said the the world hated him. What makes us think that they won't hate us? And yet, he still died for the very people who hated him. And he charged us to do the same.

Is it fair? Nope. It is, however, what we signed up for.