"The Florida Dem Primary Means Nothing"

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/29/617700.aspx?GT1=10755

Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson and Rep. Alcee Hastings argued that in taking away Florida's delegates, and rendering the primary election little more than a beauty contest, the Democratic National Committee was disenfranchising Florida voters. Hastings claimed the real victims are the people he calls "Joe and Jane Lunch Bucket." Ultimately, they lost that federal case, but the bitter sentiment still resonates.

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People still use lunch buckets?

William Haskins said:

just to follow up with all the people who claimed florida was meaningless for the democrats because of the delegate controversy, here's a fun and interesting fact:

in 2004, with the war going on in iraq and a motivated and polarized electorate in play (which would eventually result in the highest general election turnout in history), 753,000 democrats turned out to vote in a primary featuring john kerry and john edwards.

at this moment (with 81% of precincts reporting), hillary alone has more than the total votes cast in the 04 primary at 786,000 votes.

more than 1.5 democrats voted in total today, more than twice the number that voted 4 years ago.

to suggest that these facts mean nothing ignores some pretty stark realities.

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Democratic primaries have had bigger turnout than the Republicans overall, ever since the Iowa caucuses started. That's really nothing new.

Hillary's victory there is quite impressive. However, let's not forget that there was no campaigning there, and Barak seems to pick up a lot of strength when people actually get to hear him.

This says it all as far as Hillary Clinton and her whole approach so far:

Last year, the national party stripped Florida of its delegates as punishment for moving its primary ahead of Feb. 5 and the candidates pledged to bypass the state. At stake Tuesday were 185 delegates.

Still, Clinton winked at that pledge, holding two closed fundraisers in recent days and scheduling a rally with supporters after the polls closed in Florida.

-From this ARTICLE

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So she pledged to not do something and then blew it off for expediency and to further her march to power. Not to mention her attempts to get those delegates counted now.

Nice.

The Dem primary in Florida isn't entirely meaningless, but it's damn hard to say right now what it does mean. First, if the delegates had been at stake, the campaigning would have been entirely different, so that's a nebulosity. Obama did next to nothing in Florida, so my guess is that Clinton still would have won, but the margin would have been smaller.

Probably the most remarkable aspect of the Democratic primary in Florida is the turnout. For a campaign almost entirely focused on the fascinating and crucial Republican race, and in which the Democrats were largely absent, the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout. If you're a Republican sympathizer, and this doesn't bother you, check your pulse.

caw

The Dem turnout was huge because there's actually an anti Obama vote. Quite a few of the Dems are more hostile to blacks than the Pubbies.

Just like in Chicago when Harold Washington ran for mayor. "Vote Epton (who?) before it's too late!" (Hint, hint.)

Hilary ain't electable though. Too bad Gore couldn't be persuaded to jump in this time.

In other news, McCain is starting to grow on me. He's good for at least one term, anyway. Impressive win in Florida.

Mind you, I still think Romney's the best man for the job.

brokenfingers said:

So she pledged to not do something and then blew it off for expediency and to further her march to power. Not to mention her attempts to get those delegates counted now.

Nice.

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I'm surprised that people are willing to overlook that little underhandedness on her part and are saying "Go, Hillary, go!"

odocoileus said:

The Dem turnout was huge because there's actually an anti Obama vote. Quite a few of the Dems are more hostile to blacks than the Pubbies.

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No, it was huge because Democrats in general are particularly energized this year. Clinton's win was simply the combination of the result of her breaking her vow not to campaign in Florida and because she has name recognition; not because of any racism.

the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout.

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You'll be stunned with the republican turnout if Hillary's running in the presidential race. Every republican will turn out, reinforced with a whole bunch of independents like me.

Joe270 said:

You'll be stunned with the republican turnout if Hillary's running in the presidential race. Every republican will turn out, reinforced with a whole bunch of independents like me.

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Actually, I pretty much agree with you here. Which is one of the primary reasons I support Barack Obama.

caw

That's why I hope they put the big ol' leash on big ol' Bill Dawg before he makes things fugly (and yes, by most accounts, he's bought the clue and will behave better from now on) and alienates the Dem voters who have their spirits invested in Obama.

I doubt many Edwards or Obama supporters would dream of supporting a Republican; but break their dreams by dissing Obama (especially) and I can imagine an awful lot of Obama voters staying home come Election Day. "If they don't want MY vote, fine, I'm not voting for Billary."

Independents might look at the weasel rag team ... then look at John McCain ... and just vote for personality.

Meanwhile, an ugly Hillary campaign would energize every Republican to go pick up their neighbors and all go out to vote against Hillary.

She might inspire more votes AGAINST her than she'd inspire FOR her, even if she's got more Dem machine support and votes than Obama in a state like Florida.

And if certain Dems had voted correctly in 2000, there wouldn't have been all the hanging chad nonsense and questionable recounts and lawsuits, and GORE would have won in 2000.

What a different world it might be now ...

What we got now? Hate and confusion over Bill Dawg, and how many states voting on digital machines with NO PROOF who you voted for!?

It's like handing the Election over to SkyNet. Y'know, SkyNet ... all killer-cyborg Terminators from the future etc?

And one of THEM is already Govnor of Cali now ...

small axe said:

That's why I hope they put the big ol' leash on big ol' Bill Dawg before he makes things fugly (and yes, by most accounts, he's bought the clue and will behave better from now on) and alienates the Dem voters who have their spirits invested in Obama.

I doubt many Edwards or Obama supporters would dream of supporting a Republican; but break their dreams by dissing Obama (especially) and I can imagine an awful lot of Obama voters staying home come Election Day. "If they don't want MY vote, fine, I'm not voting for Billary."

Independents might look at the weasel rag team ... then look at John McCain ... and just vote for personality.

Meanwhile, an ugly Hillary campaign would energize every Republican to go pick up their neighbors and all go out to vote against Hillary.

She might inspire more votes AGAINST her than she'd inspire FOR her, even if she's got more Dem machine support and votes than Obama in a state like Florida.

And if certain Dems had voted correctly in 2000, there wouldn't have been all the hanging chad nonsense and questionable recounts and lawsuits, and GORE would have won in 2000.

What a different world it might be now ...

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Astute and correct. You get a rep point.

caw

Such hostility over Hillary.

Wonder why she is so threatening?

blacbird said:

Probably the most remarkable aspect of the Democratic primary in Florida is the turnout. For a campaign almost entirely focused on the fascinating and crucial Republican race, and in which the Democrats were largely absent, the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout. If you're a Republican sympathizer, and this doesn't bother you, check your pulse.

caw

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Whatever the numbers are... the reason why Dems turned out is because there was a tax Amendment also being voted on that would double your homestead exemption and allow you to transfer your accumulated tax benefits to another property if you should move. Dollars and cents usually tends to get people off of their asses.

eldragon said:

Such hostility over Hillary.

Wonder why she is so threatening?

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Must be her outfits. They hate her outfits.

And she hasn't Botoxed yet.

Rllgthunder said:

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/29/617700.aspx?GT1=10755



People still use lunch buckets?

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Yep, out here in the hinterlands of America, folks still use lunch buckets.

InfinityGoddess said:

I'm surprised that people are willing to overlook that little underhandedness on her part and are saying "Go, Hillary, go!"



No, it was huge because Democrats in general are particularly energized this year. Clinton's win was simply the combination of the result of her breaking her vow not to campaign in Florida and because she has name recognition; not because of any racism.

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Lol!! Obama's picture has been plastered all over the place. Name recognition? Name recognition? You've got to be kidding. You think people in Florida never watched the news? Lord, IG, what a bizarre analysis.

And she broke no vows, she was just darn smart. All she did was think that it was better not to completely ignore such a huge pool of voters in such a pivotal state. Duh!! Democrats were out in truck loads. And that's exactly why Obama is not the man for the job, because he couldn't give a rat's ass about a huge state like Florida and barely mentioned it, other than how "they don't count." Yeah, that'll help him.

Takvah said:

Whatever the numbers are... the reason why Dems turned out is because there was a tax Amendment also being voted on that would double your homestead exemption and allow you to transfer your accumulated tax benefits to another property if you should move. Dollars and cents usually tends to get people off of their asses.

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No it doesn't account for the Democratic vote. People were well aware that they were snubbed and their primary vote didn't count, but they voted for their candidate anyway because - as a fellow I talked to put it: "I fought for this country and they're not gonna tell me I don't matter."

The Democratic party has behaved disgracefully.

But, if you take the pragmatist point of view, "Hillary won nothing." There is something to be said for that. Mainly because if she dosen't do well next tuesday, Florida will be forgotten. If she carries next Tuesday Florida will be looked upon as a momentum builder. If she ties next Tuesday, Florida become a battle ground at the convention. I said in anothe post that I was on the fence as to weather this meant a lot or not, and I'm beginning to lean towards "it means little" in the national picture. One BIG reason. Florida has sort of disenfranchised itself in the minds of many democrats since the gore Bush bullshit of 2000. In the rest of the country Dems don't give a shit what Fla does and actually despises the electorate. I don't think it will carry for Hillary.

Don, Florida is a make or break state. Nobody in their right mind ignores it.

Bird of Prey said:

Lol!! Obama's picture has been plastered all over the place. Name recognition? Name recognition? You've got to be kidding. You think people in Florida never watched the news? Lord, IG, what a bizarre analysis.

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Obama didn't have much of a ground game in Florida, because the candidates have agreed not to campaign there. Hillary broke her promise, doing what most people would regard as "cheating".

eldragon said:

Such hostility over Hillary.

Wonder why she is so threatening?

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To Republicans: She is a Clinton.

To Democrats: She is a DLC Democrat, beholden to the whims of corporate lobbyists.

InfinityGoddess said:

Obama didn't have much of a ground game in Florida, because the candidates have agreed not to campaign there. Hillary broke her promise, doing what most people would regard as "cheating".

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Well the people of Florida didn't think a fundraiser was cheating, and were glad to see her show up and not ignore them. IG, these people are running for the Presidency. You don't treat voters like so much chump change. . .because their vote "doesn't count." That's absurd.

Bird of Prey said:

Well the people of Florida didn't think a fundraiser was cheating, and were glad to see her show up and not ignore them. IG, these people are running for the Presidency. You don't treat voters like so much chump change. . .because their vote "doesn't count." That's absurd.

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I don't agree with the DNC decision to strip delegates, as I've stated before. But they set the rules and the candidates agreed to abide by them. Hillary broke that promise and is now trying to see if she can't get those delegates back so that she would have that edge over Obama. To me, that is about as dirty as it was when Joe Lieberman decided he was going to go against his base's wishes to have him kicked out and run as an independent. A "win at all costs" candidate. Like we haven't seen enough of that.