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View Full Version : "The Florida Dem Primary Means Nothing"


William Haskins
01-30-2008, 08:04 AM
just to follow up with all the people who claimed florida was meaningless for the democrats because of the delegate controversy, here's a fun and interesting fact:

in 2004, with the war going on in iraq and a motivated and polarized electorate in play (which would eventually result in the highest general election turnout in history), 753,000 democrats turned out to vote in a primary featuring john kerry and john edwards.

at this moment (with 81% of precincts reporting), hillary alone has more than the total votes cast in the 04 primary at 786,000 votes.

more than 1.5 democrats voted in total today, more than twice the number that voted 4 years ago.

to suggest that these facts mean nothing ignores some pretty stark realities.

Rolling Thunder
01-30-2008, 08:11 AM
http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/29/617700.aspx?GT1=10755

Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson and Rep. Alcee Hastings argued that in taking away Florida's delegates, and rendering the primary election little more than a beauty contest, the Democratic National Committee was disenfranchising Florida voters. Hastings claimed the real victims are the people he calls "Joe and Jane Lunch Bucket." Ultimately, they lost that federal case, but the bitter sentiment still resonates.

People still use lunch buckets?

InfinityGoddess
01-30-2008, 08:15 AM
just to follow up with all the people who claimed florida was meaningless for the democrats because of the delegate controversy, here's a fun and interesting fact:

in 2004, with the war going on in iraq and a motivated and polarized electorate in play (which would eventually result in the highest general election turnout in history), 753,000 democrats turned out to vote in a primary featuring john kerry and john edwards.

at this moment (with 81% of precincts reporting), hillary alone has more than the total votes cast in the 04 primary at 786,000 votes.

more than 1.5 democrats voted in total today, more than twice the number that voted 4 years ago.

to suggest that these facts mean nothing ignores some pretty stark realities.

Democratic primaries have had bigger turnout than the Republicans overall, ever since the Iowa caucuses started. That's really nothing new.

rugcat
01-30-2008, 08:27 AM
Hillary's victory there is quite impressive. However, let's not forget that there was no campaigning there, and Barak seems to pick up a lot of strength when people actually get to hear him.

brokenfingers
01-30-2008, 08:34 AM
This says it all as far as Hillary Clinton and her whole approach so far:

Last year, the national party stripped Florida of its delegates as punishment for moving its primary ahead of Feb. 5 and the candidates pledged to bypass the state. At stake Tuesday were 185 delegates.

Still, Clinton winked at that pledge, holding two closed fundraisers in recent days and scheduling a rally with supporters after the polls closed in Florida.

-From this ARTICLE (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22904383)

So she pledged to not do something and then blew it off for expediency and to further her march to power. Not to mention her attempts to get those delegates counted now.

Nice.

blacbird
01-30-2008, 09:09 AM
The Dem primary in Florida isn't entirely meaningless, but it's damn hard to say right now what it does mean. First, if the delegates had been at stake, the campaigning would have been entirely different, so that's a nebulosity. Obama did next to nothing in Florida, so my guess is that Clinton still would have won, but the margin would have been smaller.

Probably the most remarkable aspect of the Democratic primary in Florida is the turnout. For a campaign almost entirely focused on the fascinating and crucial Republican race, and in which the Democrats were largely absent, the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout. If you're a Republican sympathizer, and this doesn't bother you, check your pulse.

caw

odocoileus
01-30-2008, 09:24 AM
The Dem turnout was huge because there's actually an anti Obama vote. Quite a few of the Dems are more hostile to blacks than the Pubbies.

Just like in Chicago when Harold Washington ran for mayor. "Vote Epton (who?) before it's too late!" (Hint, hint.)

Hilary ain't electable though. Too bad Gore couldn't be persuaded to jump in this time.

In other news, McCain is starting to grow on me. He's good for at least one term, anyway. Impressive win in Florida.

Mind you, I still think Romney's the best man for the job.

InfinityGoddess
01-30-2008, 09:30 AM
So she pledged to not do something and then blew it off for expediency and to further her march to power. Not to mention her attempts to get those delegates counted now.

Nice.

I'm surprised that people are willing to overlook that little underhandedness on her part and are saying "Go, Hillary, go!"

The Dem turnout was huge because there's actually an anti Obama vote. Quite a few of the Dems are more hostile to blacks than the Pubbies.


No, it was huge because Democrats in general are particularly energized this year. Clinton's win was simply the combination of the result of her breaking her vow not to campaign in Florida and because she has name recognition; not because of any racism.

Joe270
01-30-2008, 11:49 AM
the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout.

You'll be stunned with the republican turnout if Hillary's running in the presidential race. Every republican will turn out, reinforced with a whole bunch of independents like me.

blacbird
01-30-2008, 11:53 AM
You'll be stunned with the republican turnout if Hillary's running in the presidential race. Every republican will turn out, reinforced with a whole bunch of independents like me.

Actually, I pretty much agree with you here. Which is one of the primary reasons I support Barack Obama.

caw

small axe
01-30-2008, 12:09 PM
That's why I hope they put the big ol' leash on big ol' Bill Dawg before he makes things fugly (and yes, by most accounts, he's bought the clue and will behave better from now on) and alienates the Dem voters who have their spirits invested in Obama.

I doubt many Edwards or Obama supporters would dream of supporting a Republican; but break their dreams by dissing Obama (especially) and I can imagine an awful lot of Obama voters staying home come Election Day. "If they don't want MY vote, fine, I'm not voting for Billary."

Independents might look at the weasel rag team ... then look at John McCain ... and just vote for personality.

Meanwhile, an ugly Hillary campaign would energize every Republican to go pick up their neighbors and all go out to vote against Hillary.

She might inspire more votes AGAINST her than she'd inspire FOR her, even if she's got more Dem machine support and votes than Obama in a state like Florida.

And if certain Dems had voted correctly in 2000, there wouldn't have been all the hanging chad nonsense and questionable recounts and lawsuits, and GORE would have won in 2000.

What a different world it might be now ...

What we got now? Hate and confusion over Bill Dawg, and how many states voting on digital machines with NO PROOF who you voted for!?

It's like handing the Election over to SkyNet. Y'know, SkyNet ... all killer-cyborg Terminators from the future etc?

And one of THEM is already Govnor of Cali now ...

blacbird
01-30-2008, 12:14 PM
That's why I hope they put the big ol' leash on big ol' Bill Dawg before he makes things fugly (and yes, by most accounts, he's bought the clue and will behave better from now on) and alienates the Dem voters who have their spirits invested in Obama.

I doubt many Edwards or Obama supporters would dream of supporting a Republican; but break their dreams by dissing Obama (especially) and I can imagine an awful lot of Obama voters staying home come Election Day. "If they don't want MY vote, fine, I'm not voting for Billary."

Independents might look at the weasel rag team ... then look at John McCain ... and just vote for personality.

Meanwhile, an ugly Hillary campaign would energize every Republican to go pick up their neighbors and all go out to vote against Hillary.

She might inspire more votes AGAINST her than she'd inspire FOR her, even if she's got more Dem machine support and votes than Obama in a state like Florida.

And if certain Dems had voted correctly in 2000, there wouldn't have been all the hanging chad nonsense and questionable recounts and lawsuits, and GORE would have won in 2000.

What a different world it might be now ...

Astute and correct. You get a rep point.

caw

William Haskins
01-30-2008, 04:53 PM
Probably the most remarkable aspect of the Democratic primary in Florida is the turnout. For a campaign almost entirely focused on the fascinating and crucial Republican race, and in which the Democrats were largely absent, the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout. If you're a Republican sympathizer, and this doesn't bother you, check your pulse.

caw

might want to actually check the math, rather than your pulse...

both were closed primaries, meaning only registered party members could vote in their respective primaries

florida is 41% democrat, 37% republican

1.7 million democrats voted in their primary

1.9 million republicans voted in their primary

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#FL

eldragon
01-30-2008, 05:01 PM
Such hostility over Hillary.

Wonder why she is so threatening?

Takvah
01-30-2008, 05:59 PM
Probably the most remarkable aspect of the Democratic primary in Florida is the turnout. For a campaign almost entirely focused on the fascinating and crucial Republican race, and in which the Democrats were largely absent, the Democratic turnout was much larger than the Republican turnout. If you're a Republican sympathizer, and this doesn't bother you, check your pulse.

caw

Whatever the numbers are... the reason why Dems turned out is because there was a tax Amendment also being voted on that would double your homestead exemption and allow you to transfer your accumulated tax benefits to another property if you should move. Dollars and cents usually tends to get people off of their asses.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 06:09 PM
Such hostility over Hillary.

Wonder why she is so threatening?


Must be her outfits. They hate her outfits.

And she hasn't Botoxed yet.

johnnysannie
01-30-2008, 06:15 PM
http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/29/617700.aspx?GT1=10755



People still use lunch buckets?

Yep, out here in the hinterlands of America, folks still use lunch buckets.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 06:22 PM
I'm surprised that people are willing to overlook that little underhandedness on her part and are saying "Go, Hillary, go!"



No, it was huge because Democrats in general are particularly energized this year. Clinton's win was simply the combination of the result of her breaking her vow not to campaign in Florida and because she has name recognition; not because of any racism.


Lol!! Obama's picture has been plastered all over the place. Name recognition? Name recognition? You've got to be kidding. You think people in Florida never watched the news? Lord, IG, what a bizarre analysis.

And she broke no vows, she was just darn smart. All she did was think that it was better not to completely ignore such a huge pool of voters in such a pivotal state. Duh!! Democrats were out in truck loads. And that's exactly why Obama is not the man for the job, because he couldn't give a rat's ass about a huge state like Florida and barely mentioned it, other than how "they don't count." Yeah, that'll help him.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 06:29 PM
Whatever the numbers are... the reason why Dems turned out is because there was a tax Amendment also being voted on that would double your homestead exemption and allow you to transfer your accumulated tax benefits to another property if you should move. Dollars and cents usually tends to get people off of their asses.

No it doesn't account for the Democratic vote. People were well aware that they were snubbed and their primary vote didn't count, but they voted for their candidate anyway because - as a fellow I talked to put it: "I fought for this country and they're not gonna tell me I don't matter."

The Democratic party has behaved disgracefully.

Don Allen
01-30-2008, 06:30 PM
But, if you take the pragmatist point of view, "Hillary won nothing." There is something to be said for that. Mainly because if she dosen't do well next tuesday, Florida will be forgotten. If she carries next Tuesday Florida will be looked upon as a momentum builder. If she ties next Tuesday, Florida become a battle ground at the convention. I said in anothe post that I was on the fence as to weather this meant a lot or not, and I'm beginning to lean towards "it means little" in the national picture. One BIG reason. Florida has sort of disenfranchised itself in the minds of many democrats since the gore Bush bullshit of 2000. In the rest of the country Dems don't give a shit what Fla does and actually despises the electorate. I don't think it will carry for Hillary.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 06:35 PM
Don, Florida is a make or break state. Nobody in their right mind ignores it.

InfinityGoddess
01-30-2008, 07:06 PM
Lol!! Obama's picture has been plastered all over the place. Name recognition? Name recognition? You've got to be kidding. You think people in Florida never watched the news? Lord, IG, what a bizarre analysis.


Obama didn't have much of a ground game in Florida, because the candidates have agreed not to campaign there. Hillary broke her promise, doing what most people would regard as "cheating".

Such hostility over Hillary.

Wonder why she is so threatening?

To Republicans: She is a Clinton.

To Democrats: She is a DLC Democrat, beholden to the whims of corporate lobbyists.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 07:10 PM
Obama didn't have much of a ground game in Florida, because the candidates have agreed not to campaign there. Hillary broke her promise, doing what most people would regard as "cheating".

Well the people of Florida didn't think a fundraiser was cheating, and were glad to see her show up and not ignore them. IG, these people are running for the Presidency. You don't treat voters like so much chump change. . .because their vote "doesn't count." That's absurd.

William Haskins
01-30-2008, 07:21 PM
"cheated"

fucking pathetic.

InfinityGoddess
01-30-2008, 07:23 PM
Well the people of Florida didn't think a fundraiser was cheating, and were glad to see her show up and not ignore them. IG, these people are running for the Presidency. You don't treat voters like so much chump change. . .because their vote "doesn't count." That's absurd.

I don't agree with the DNC decision to strip delegates, as I've stated before. But they set the rules and the candidates agreed to abide by them. Hillary broke that promise and is now trying to see if she can't get those delegates back so that she would have that edge over Obama. To me, that is about as dirty as it was when Joe Lieberman decided he was going to go against his base's wishes to have him kicked out and run as an independent. A "win at all costs" candidate. Like we haven't seen enough of that.

joyce
01-30-2008, 07:25 PM
Once again I'll say I hate getting into these discussions but.....Living in Florida, we do have T.V, cable at that, internet service, radio, telephones, etc. I don't speak for the whole state, only for my little piece and the people I've talked to. I know many Republicans who are changing sides just because of the present administration and it's horrible job. I also know Democrats who are for Obama, even though I personally like Hillary. I also know many people who'd vote for BoBo the dog if he were running, just to get rid of the old and get something new in the office. Yes, we screwed up with those damn hanging chads and will never live that down. We also had a large property tax bill to vote on, which I'm sure accounted for many people turning out. Having lived here my whole life, I don't see Florida with any more racism than you'll find anywhere else in these good ole states. Remember, most of us don't even have an accent because we have such a mix of different nationalities living here. People want change, so that's why I think so many people turned out. I'm for BoBo the dog, if he can bring on some good changes for us. :)

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 07:32 PM
Even Bobo the dog wouldn't have pissed on Florida.

joyce
01-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Even Bobo the dog wouldn't have pissed on Florida.

Sure he would, we've got lots of nice trees. If he'd stopped by my house BoBo wouldn't have left because of all the nice southern food he'd be getting. Perhaps he'd made me the Vice and I could say "Cheese grits for everyone".:D

TheGaffer
01-30-2008, 08:48 PM
just to follow up with all the people who claimed florida was meaningless for the democrats because of the delegate controversy, here's a fun and interesting fact:

in 2004, with the war going on in iraq and a motivated and polarized electorate in play (which would eventually result in the highest general election turnout in history), 753,000 democrats turned out to vote in a primary featuring john kerry and john edwards.

at this moment (with 81% of precincts reporting), hillary alone has more than the total votes cast in the 04 primary at 786,000 votes.

more than 1.5 democrats voted in total today, more than twice the number that voted 4 years ago.

to suggest that these facts mean nothing ignores some pretty stark realities.

True enough on all points.

There is still an inherent stupidity about this entire process, however. Sure, there always was, but this time around in particular. It seems senseless and misguided.

TheGaffer
01-30-2008, 08:50 PM
Actually, I pretty much agree with you here. Which is one of the primary reasons I support Barack Obama.

caw

I'm not as sure I agree. I've been hearing about the political death of the Clintons for a long time, and it hasn't happened yet.

Joe270
01-30-2008, 09:05 PM
To me, that is about as dirty as it was when Joe Lieberman decided he was going to go against his base's wishes to have him kicked out and run as an independent.

It's a free country, he had every right to run as an independent. Seems the voters liked what he had to say, so they voted him into office.

So because the democrat party doesn't want Lieberman to run, that makes him a traitor if he runs? How?

eldragon
01-30-2008, 09:16 PM
These political discussions are just weird.

So Hillary won't be elected, because she's a Clinton.

Everyone says they are ready for a woman president, just not her.

She's the wrong woman, married to the wrong guy. Those things are pretty hard to change.

Bill is trying to run a third term. But remember that everyone used to say that Hillary was the real president, when Bill was president.

All this rhetoric adds up to nothing more than just: we don't like her, and there is no real reason why. Just because.

Like our current president was so perfect for the job.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 09:50 PM
These political discussions are just weird.

So Hillary won't be elected, because she's a Clinton.

Everyone says they are ready for a woman president, just not her.

She's the wrong woman, married to the wrong guy. Those things are pretty hard to change.

Bill is trying to run a third term. But remember that everyone used to say that Hillary was the real president, when Bill was president.

All this rhetoric adds up to nothing more than just: we don't like her, and there is no real reason why. Just because.

Like our current president was so perfect for the job.

And don't forget, El, she wore "scarlet" at the State of the Union address.

I couldn't believe a major network - PBS - described her as wearing scarlet.

Ooooh. Scarlet which rhymes with harlot. . . .

As you stated, most of the rhetoric has no substance.

And btw, nobody mentioned what Obama was wearing.

As usual.

eldragon
01-30-2008, 10:20 PM
Perhaps she's just not sexy enough. Maybe a Victoria's Secret endorsement would help her image?

Show some cleavage, Hill! Show some leg! Get that Spanish vote by wearing Cuban-heeled stockings! Or go on Oprah and give away some designer bedsheets, made out of 100% cotton t-shirt material! We want gift bags and sex!


Speaking of endorsements, I was just stunned by the huge bombshell that Toni Morrison endorsed Obama! Wow! We haven't heard from everyone yet, have we?

Who is that old actor who peddles Quaker Oats endorsing? How about the cast of The Love Boat? Frankly, I just won't make my final decision until I hear what Bill Cosby has to say about it. He's black, will he vote for Obama? What about his wife, Camille? And how about Kid Rock? Who does he like? And Nicole Ritchie? The Olsen twins? (what if they endorse different candidates? I'm so confused! Which one is Mary Kate?)

"Endorsements" have gotten out of hand, in my opinion. Like the culinary union in Vegas endorsing Obama. It was irrelevant. The organization is made up of tens of thousands of people, who I can assure you, weren't asked their opinion.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 10:31 PM
Speaking of endorsements, I was just stunned by the huge bombshell that Toni Morrison endorsed Obama! Wow! We haven't heard from everyone yet, have we?



Not everyone. We're waiting on Jim Morrison.

He's dead but any minute he's expected to rise from his French grave to endorse Obama. The press is at his his headstone now, waiting with baited breath for his bony hand to shoot up with an Obama button hanging from his foot long fingernail.

Gravity
01-30-2008, 10:36 PM
Gads. Now there's an image!

Joe270
01-30-2008, 11:51 PM
I couldn't believe a major network - PBS - described her as wearing scarlet.

PBS is a widely known conservative mouthpiece, far worse than Fox news.

Bird of Prey
01-30-2008, 11:57 PM
PBS is a widely known conservative mouthpiece, far worse than Fox news.


You must saying that facetiously.

Tell you what though, PBS is an ardent Obama supporter. During the State of the Union, I think you saw more of Obama/Kennedy - sitting there grinning like Humpty Dumpty - than you did George Bush. I think through the whole thing Hillary Clinton was briefly scanned once. Over half way through it, I was still wondering if she was there.

Joe270
01-31-2008, 12:29 AM
Frankly, I didn't even know PBS did a news program.

I seriously thought you were kidding around.

InfinityGoddess
01-31-2008, 12:56 AM
It's a free country, he had every right to run as an independent. Seems the voters liked what he had to say, so they voted him into office.

So because the democrat party doesn't want Lieberman to run, that makes him a traitor if he runs? How?

I never said anything about illegalities or what people can and cannot do, I said it was underhanded and dirty. In other words, it didn't make it right.

Lieberman's always been a traitor to the Democratic Party. A DINO of the worst kind and the Democratic Party in Connecticut had every right to boot him from their fold for it. The fact that there are rumors suggesting he might be a part of the GOP Convention and rumors swirling about him being a possible running mate to his BFF John McCain is the proof that's in the pudding.

He's a self-serving trogolodyte. Hillary's not quite to his level, but she's getting there with these sorts of tactics by going against the DNC when it comes to trying to reinstate delegates in states she was not supposed to campaign in.

Bird of Prey
01-31-2008, 12:57 AM
Frankly, I didn't even know PBS did a news program.

I seriously thought you were kidding around.

Jim Lehrer.

beezle
01-31-2008, 01:02 AM
Jim Lehrer.

Good ol' NewsHour. We even get that here in Australia.

Joe270
01-31-2008, 01:06 AM
Oh. Sorry. Dang it, I was ready to roll with that one. I already had some NPR stuff primed.

You said 'major network', now. So you're the person watching that. The Nielson ratings indicate that there might be three or four viewers. Have you had house guests recently?

Joe270
01-31-2008, 01:12 AM
I never said anything about illegalities or what people can and cannot do, I said it was underhanded and dirty. In other words, it didn't make it right.

Seems to me the demo party putting in a challenge candidate to a sitting senator was underhanded and dirty.

The voters seemed to think the same thing.

If the demo party isn't careful, ramming in who they want rather than who the voters want, we might see more independents dragging away disenfranchised democrat voters.

Blame the democrat party powers that be, not Lieberman. There's the betrayal.

Mark my words, Hillary will get the demo nod, even if Obama wins the popular vote because of the superdelegates. The fix is already in.

Bird of Prey
01-31-2008, 01:16 AM
Oh. Sorry. Dang it, I was ready to roll with that one. I already had some NPR stuff primed.

You said 'major network', now. So you're the person watching that. The Nielson ratings indicate that there might be three or four viewers. Have you had house guests recently?

Well they get it in Australia. . . .Thank you, Beezle.

InfinityGoddess
01-31-2008, 01:27 AM
Seems to me the demo party putting in a challenge candidate to a sitting senator was underhanded and dirty.

It's called a primary. Primaries exist to challenge incumbents when their records do not serve the interests of their constituents. Lieberman was not serving his constituents, so the Democratic Party base in Connecticut thought it was time to cut him loose.

Many incumbents, when such challenges are brought on, learn very quickly the power of the people who vote for them and change their behavior accordingly. But then you get the guys like Lieberman, who don't change, and thus rightly deserve to lose.

In fact, I know of a few such DINO incumbents who are probably covered in sweat right about now as Super Tuesday approaches as they face challenges from the left...

Don Allen
01-31-2008, 01:37 AM
BOP, I never said anyone should ignore Florida. I said that since it couldn't be won, the results will probably be forgotten by the time the convention rolls around, and by then it may be to late for either of the dems that are behind.

Joe270
01-31-2008, 02:06 AM
Many incumbents, when such challenges are brought on, learn very quickly the power of the people who vote for them and change their behavior accordingly. But then you get the guys like Lieberman, who don't change, and thus rightly deserve to lose.


Exactly, and Joe won now, didn't he?

And if you correct my spelling of demo or democrat again, I'll have at you like you've never seen. I don't see you showing the same disrespect to any other poster here.

Last warning.

brokenfingers
01-31-2008, 02:27 AM
These political discussions are just weird.

So Hillary won't be elected, because she's a Clinton.

Everyone says they are ready for a woman president, just not her.

She's the wrong woman, married to the wrong guy. Those things are pretty hard to change.

Bill is trying to run a third term. But remember that everyone used to say that Hillary was the real president, when Bill was president.

All this rhetoric adds up to nothing more than just: we don't like her, and there is no real reason why. Just because.

Like our current president was so perfect for the job.I've stated my reasons throughout numerous threads as to why I don't feel she should be allowed into power.

I also didn't like Bill Clinton. I also don't like George Bush. So I suppose, to some, I'm a woman-hater and a man-hater?

blacbird
01-31-2008, 02:33 AM
So I suppose, to some, I'm a woman-hater and a man-hater?

Are you related to Haskins?

caw

brokenfingers
01-31-2008, 02:34 AM
He's my brother from another mother.

Gravity
01-31-2008, 02:51 AM
I'm a woman-hater and a man-hater?

Gads. When I first saw that I thought you said you were a man-eater. Which would send this thread in a whole different direction, wouldn't it?

I'm tired...

InfinityGoddess
01-31-2008, 03:11 AM
Exactly, and Joe won now, didn't he?



He only won because he claimed he would help end the occupation in Iraq and hold Bush accountable for Katrina. What big fat lies they turned out to be...

Don Allen
01-31-2008, 03:15 AM
I think I missed something, where's Haskins when you need him?

eldragon
01-31-2008, 06:41 AM
I've stated my reasons throughout numerous threads as to why I don't feel she should be allowed into power.

I also didn't like Bill Clinton. I also don't like George Bush. So I suppose, to some, I'm a woman-hater and a man-hater?


Where's your sense of humor?

eldragon
01-31-2008, 06:42 AM
I think I missed something, where's Haskins when you need him?

I get that warm fuzzy feeling that William Haskins is about to endorse Hillary.

Wait, there's a special report on TV..........