Nevada Caucus and SC Primary Results Thread

[William Haskins]

one result so far.

AP and NBC projecting romney as winner of nevada republican caucus.

[William Haskins]

shit. sorry for the typo in the subject header.

[robeiae]

Causus? Wasn't he the little alien guy in the Flintstones?

[blacbird]

one result so far.

AP and NBC projecting romney as winner of nevada republican caucus.

Which pretty much means zippo, since he was virtually uncontested there. Repubs made an error scheduling their South Carolina primary on the same day (I heard a Republican strategist say this a few days ago). Dems are a week later in S.C., so they could campaign in both states.

caw

[ColoradoGuy]

shit. sorry for the typo in the subject header.
Fixed

[William Haskins]

thanks much, sir.

i'm enough of an idiot without advertising it in thread titles.

i appreciate it.

[rugcat]

one result so far.

AP and NBC projecting romney as winner of nevada republican caucus.Nevada has a significant LDS presence, most of whom are Republicans.

[John Paton]

Looks like possible voter suppression in Nevada according to President Clinton.

Culinary union officials are telling their members they vote for Obama or no-one.


Lots of fun and games yet to come. ;)

[Monkey]

Interesting race so far...

Clinton and Obama are virtually tied and waaaay out ahead of Edwards.
It looks like Edwards may be out of it.

As has been said, Romney's on top on the Republican side, but I find it interesting that McCain and Paul are very, very close to one another. Huckabee isn't looking so good.

If this continues, I'm thinking there will be considerably fewer candidates on the ballot very soon.

[Monkey]

Barack Obama `````48%
Hillary Clinton``````46%
John Edwards``````5%


Mitt Romney``````56%
John McCain``````12%
Ron Paul`````````12%
Mike Huckabee````8%
Fred Thompson```7%

Giuliani says he's waiting for Florida, but at this point, he's looking dead in the water.

[Monkey]

Looks like possible voter suppression in Nevada according to President Clinton.

Culinary union officials are telling their members they vote for Obama or no-one.


Lots of fun and games yet to come. ;)

Luckily ballots are marked in private. :)

[InfinityGoddess]

Interesting race so far...

Clinton and Obama are virtually tied and waaaay out ahead of Edwards.
It looks like Edwards may be out of it.



Edwards is staying in until the convention. The word is that he's the king/queen-maker, as opposed to being a serious contender.

[blacbird]

As has been said, Romney's on top on the Republican side, but I find it interesting that McCain and Paul are very, very close to one another. Huckabee isn't looking so good.

To reiterate, the Republican caucuses in Nevada are the next thing to meaningless. Only Romney campaigned in any meaningful way there, and it's kind of his home turf anyway, serious LDS country outside of Vegas and Reno. Not a great quantity of delegates are at stake in Nevada, and the other guys, excepting Rudy (who seems hell-bent on running a non-campaign these days), are working South Carolina, which is more important to all of them.

caw

[Monkey]

-----------------Votes------------percent

John McCain`````2,429`````````13
Ron Paul````````2,259`````````12
Fred Thompson```1,409`````````7
Mike Huckabee````1,404````````7

The Republican field is pretty darn interesting right now, IMO.

The Democratic field is looking like a head-to-head, and I don't think that the actual nominee will be any more set in stone after Nevada than it is now.

ETA: Romney's win may not mean much, but the rest of the field's placement has got my attention. :) Paul way over Gulianni; Huckabee and Thompson in a dead heat...

EATA: Anyone know anything about SC?

[Monkey]

Small development in Nevada's Democratic voting...

27% reporting

Hillary Clinton 52%
Barack Obama 43%

Edit:

35% reporting,

Clinton 50%
Obama 45%

The pendulum swings...

[Monkey]

NBC projects Hillary as the winner in Nevada.

[John Paton]

as does Obama. He is leaving on his jet plane back home.

[karo.ambrose]

Way to go Ron!!! Currently tied for second with McCain in Nevada. Boo yah!

[Monkey]

as does Obama. He is leaving on his jet plane back home.

Actually, he'd already said that he was going to leave Nevada early, and actually left a while back:


Posted at 2:42 pm:


From NBC's Mark Hudspeth and Mark Murray
Per the campaign, Obama has gone home to spend time with his family in Illinois before a long week of campaigning. He's in the air now.
Clinton will be leaving the state later today as well -- as she heads to St. Louis.

[William Haskins]

quite a thrashing by hillary. looks like all obama's union support in the casino caucuses didn't do the trick.

edwards is at 4%... why is he even bothering anymore?

[blacbird]

quite a thrashing by hillary. looks like all obama's union support in the casino caucuses didn't do the trick.

edwards is at 4%... why is he even bothering anymore?

50%-45% is "quite a thrashing"? They'll divide delegates, just like they did in New Hampshire, where the margin was about the same. Nice win for Clinton, no doubt, and a disappointment for Obama, but hardly a killer.

What it does do, though, is make South Carolina next week a must for Obama. Her organizational foundation is beginning to assert itself in a systematic way, and he'll need to show he can overcome that.

And you're right about Edwards. For him, this was definitely a "thrashing". Expect his poll numbers to slip badly in SC.

caw

[William Haskins]

the thrashing is below the numbers. a couple of points of grave concern are that he couldn't turn out a strong union vote (or, as i call it, gipper's revenge...) and he got soundly trampled in the race for the latino vote.

[Monkey]

50%-45% is "quite a thrashing"? They'll divide delegates, just like they did in New Hampshire, where the margin was about the same. Nice win for Clinton, no doubt, and a disappointment for Obama, but hardly a killer.

I agree that it's not a killer for Obama. The Democratic race is still tight...but this was a pretty big win for Hillary, despite the fact that it only gave her 1 more delegate than it gave Obama.

[blacbird]

the thrashing is below the numbers. a couple of points of grave concern are that he couldn't turn out a strong union vote (or, as i call it, gipper's revenge...) and he got soundly trampled in the race for the latino vote.

Clinton was leading among Latinos in every pre-election poll I saw, so that was no surprise. And it's not like she didn't have union backing. She just didn't have the culinary workers union. She had, in particular, endorsements from the teachers' and government workers' unions.

But you are correct in pointing out what was, at least in Nevada, a strategic weakness for Obama, and a corresponding strength for Clinton. She's making the organizational effort work better than Obama is making the inspirational effort work.

Check out this rather good and informative site:

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/south-carolina.html

(This is for the South Carolina polls, but you can get to any other state poll info from here.)

Now, I know, after New Hampshire and Michigan, these polls are all suspect, but given the knowledge of that, they're still interesting. They show Obama and McCain with leads in SC right now, and in particular, they appear to show that Obama has risen from a dead heat with Clinton in polls dated before Christmas. It will be most intriguing to see what the Nevada results do to these polls prior to next Saturday.

As an aside, I predict that Fred Thompson is history after today, and likely will announce an end to his campaign very soon. And it will take some unholy miracle for Giuliani to become relevant again.

caw

[William Haskins]

As an aside, I predict that Fred Thompson is history after today, and likely will announce an end to his campaign very soon. And it will take some unholy miracle for Giuliani to become relevant again.

caw

thompson's people said within the past hour that they won't drop out regardless of the results tonight (though you're absolutely right... and even he had acknowledged that SC was basically where he was going to make his stand)

[blacbird]

thompson's people said within the past hour that they won't drop out regardless of the results tonight

Roger Clemens is saying he never used steroids, too.

caw

[Bird of Prey]

I really don't think it was Clinton's "organizational effort" or " organizational foundation" that handed her a victory over Obama. I think it's simply her. I think it's her message and the fact that people are beginning - despite all the slanted press - to trust her as a competent leader.

[popmuze]

Anyone think Clinton and Obama will be the eventual ticket? If so, who should be on top, the man or the woman?

[William Haskins]

I really don't think it was Clinton's "organizational effort" or " organizational foundation" that handed her a victory over Obama. I think it's simply her. I think it's her message and the fact that people are beginning - despite all the slanted press - to trust her as a competent leader.

it was organization. as bb pointed out, she won on the strength of union votes (more than twice as many union endorsements), hispanics (64-26%) and women. she also did well with older voters.

she's running a smart, targeted campaign.

[Bird of Prey]

it was organization. as bb pointed out, she won on the strength of union votes (more than twice as many union endorsements), hispanics (64-26%) and women. she also did well with older voters.

she's running a smart, targeted campaign.

She didn't have all the unions; in fact she didn't have the biggest in the state. It's important to note that while Obama did plenty to contribute to his defeat in Nevada, Clinton's been far more sympathetic toward immigrants, elderly, and sensible people of both sexes.

But typically, people want to credit the Clinton "machine," rather than the person. That's how I read those comments. Obama's "inspiration" versus Clinton's "organization." I just find it worth mentioning.

[robeiae]

Gawd. I can see it coming now: Romney vs. Clinton.

Three elections cycles and losers all around.

[blacbird]

She didn't have all the unions; in fact she didn't have the biggest in the state. It's important to note that while Obama did plenty to contribute to his defeat in Nevada, Clinton's been far more sympathetic toward immigrants, elderly, and sensible people of both sexes.

But typically, people want to credit the Clinton "machine," rather than the person. That's how I read those comments. Obama's "inspiration" versus Clinton's "organization." I just find it worth mentioning.

You're reading into my comment all kinds of things that weren't there. Haskins said it perfectly: she's running a smart, targeted campaign. That's a compliment, not an insult. She's taking advantage of her popularity among various groups of people using practical political organizational experience and skills. Not a damn thing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't drift into Nixonian dirty tricks (the kind of crap certain Huckabee supporters are pulling against McCain and Romney in South Carolina). And (as it seems necessary because you tend to cast everything into a you're-for-me-or-you're against me mode), I'm not seriously opposed to Hillary Clinton; I'll have no difficulty voting for her if she becomes the Dem nominee. My preference, stated elsewhere, is for Obama, but it's not a huge margin.

And in this thread, as in the others of similar nature here, I'm playing analyst rather than advocate. So is Haskins. He and me disagree rather big on political candidate preferences, but we tend to wind up agreeing here, or close to it, on analytical points. Try to step back and look a little less passsionately at what's going on in this most interesting of Presidential races.

caw

[William Haskins]

let's be clear here. hillary clinton is disliked consistently by nearly half of the country. she has carried through the entire campaign the highest unfavorable numbers of any candidate in either party.

if she wins the nomination, it will be solely through playing the political process intelligently.

[InfinityGoddess]

let's be clear here. hillary clinton is disliked consistently by nearly half of the country. she has carried through the entire campaign the highest unfavorable numbers of any candidate in either party.

if she wins the nomination, it will be solely through playing the political process intelligently.

And if she wins the nomination, people like me will hold our noses and vote for her.

[billythrilly7th]

I think it's her message and the fact that people are beginning - despite all the slanted press - to trust her as a competent leader.

She's been the leader of this race for four years.

"Beginning"

Pfffh.

Obama had one good day in Iowa.

People aren't beginning to do anything regarding Hillary. They're just following through on what the polls have said for years.

That's such a stupid statement. As if she's some underdog who all of a sudden has had her message catch on and now she's climbing up the long hill passing other candidates one by one and a ground swell takes her to the nomination.

"When I was polled a year ago, I said I'd vote for Hillary Clinton, but I had no trust that she was a competent leader. Today I went to the polling booth and voted for Hillary Clinton because I recently began believing she is a competent leader."
BoP
1/19/08

"What?"

" :Shrug: "
BoP
1/19/08

:rolleyes:


If Obama hadn't happen to have won Iowa there wouldn't be any of this "comeback kid" and "people are starting to believe in her" nonsense.

Huckabee won Iowa too and we now see how worthless Iowa is this election cycle.

I call them "The Tease/Torture State."

[Bird of Prey]

let's be clear here. hillary clinton is disliked consistently by nearly half of the country. she has carried through the entire campaign the highest unfavorable numbers of any candidate in either party.

if she wins the nomination, it will be solely through playing the political process intelligently.


Let me explain that Hillary Clinton is severely disliked by nearly half the country because that half of the country realizes that should she get the nomination, she'll win.

[William Haskins]

you have nothing to back that up.

[billythrilly7th]

Let me explain that Hillary Clinton is severely disliked by nearly half the country because that half of the country realizes that should she get the nomination, she'll win.

Have you been living in America for the past 15 years?

We hate Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary F'Ing Clinton.

We hated her lonnnnnnnnnnnng before her political career was even a speck of possibility.

I actually don't mind the policies of Bubba and Hill. They're pretty centered most of the time.

We hate them because of .....

The A to Z Guide of Clinton Scandals

Whitewatergate, Travelgate, Cattlegate and now Indonesiagate . . . there seems to be more gates in the Clinton White House than on the barns of America.

So just in case you've lost track of the scandals that have hit this current White House, The Post's Deborah Orin and Thomas Galvin have pieced together your cut-out-and-keep A to Z guide of Clinton scandals . . from Arkansas to Zippers.

A is for Arkansas, where Bill Clinton got his political start, where Hillary Rodham Clinton worked at Rose Law Firm, and where Whitewater began as a land deal between the Clintons and Jim and Susan McDougal.

B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing records. Those records -- which raised questions about Mrs. Clinton's role in the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed in 1994. They were missing until early 1996, when they turned up in a White House room next to her office. She says she doesn't know how they got there.

C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to turn a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle futures, a feat experts say was virtually impossible in normal trading.

C is also for Castle Grande, a real-estate scheme that federal regulators say was a sham. A federal inspector general's report found Hillary Clinton drew up the legal papers that were used to improperly funnel hundreds of thousands of dollars to Seth Ward, father-in-law of her ex-law partner Webster Hubbell.

D is for Billy Dale, the career head of the White House Travel Office, who was fired along with six other career staffers, to make way for Clinton cronies in Travelgate. The White House then brought in the FBI to justify the firing, and Dale was hit with criminal charges that wrecked his life for two years. A jury cleared him in just two hours.

E is for Mike Espy, the former agriculture secretary who was forced out over charges that he got gifts and favors from Arkansas-based Tyson foods, whose owners were longtime Clinton backers. A special counsel has brought several indictments, though not against Espy.

F is for Filegate, the improper White House rummaging through 900 FBI files on Republican officials in the Bush and Reagan administration. The White House says it was an innocent snafu. Republicans suspect an enemies list. Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr and several congressional committees are probing.

G is for Golfgate, ex-White House aide David Watkins' improper use of presidential helicopters for a personal golf outing. He was forced to resign. In the 1992 presidential campaign, Clinton aides tried to use taxpayer funds to help settle a sexual harassment case filed by a fellow campaign worker against Watkins.

H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in Filegate, Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle Grande. She denies any wrongdoing.

H is also for Hubbell, in jail after pleading guilty to bilking law clients on charges brought by Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Hubbell was previously the associate attorney general, the No. 3 Justice Department office.

I is for Indonesiagate, featuring the Lippo group, a firm with long-standing ties to Bill Clinton, Clinton cronies and Arkansas. Republicans want to know why an Indonesian couple -- of apparently modest means -- with ties to Lippo gave $452,000 to the Democratic National Committee and what the firm may have gotten in return. Lippo also hired Hubbell, at a reported fee of $250,000, for the five months when he left the White House and went to jail.

J is for Paula Jones, who accuses President Clinton of sexual harassment, saying he dropped his pants and asked for oral sex in an Arkansas hotel room while he was governor and she was a state employee. The U.S. Supreme Court will rule this fall on whether her case must wait until after Clinton leaves office, as he demands.

K is for William Kennedy, another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner who became a White House lawyer and was forced to resign after concealing his failure to pay nanny taxes. He was reprimanded for his role in Travelgate.

L is for Craig Livingstone, the ex-bar bouncer with a history of drug use who was the head of White House security. Two FBI agents say it was Hillary Clinton who demanded his hiring, which she denies. Disgraced Clinton political guru Dick Morris's hooker pal, Sherry Rowlands, claims Morris told her a "paranoid" Hillary Clinton was behind Filegate. He says he only told her that's what polls show.

M is for Jim and Susan McDougal, the Clintons' Whitewater partners, both of whom have been convicted of fraud. Jim McDougal is said to be helping Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Susan McDougal is in jail for refusing to say whether President Clinton lied when he denied knowing about an illegal $300,000 loan to bail out Whitewater. The loan wasn't repaid, and taxpayers were left holding the bag.

M is also for disgraced political guru Dick Morris.

N is for Bernard Nussbaum, the former White House lawyer who barred federal investigators from searching Vince Foster's office after Foster's death. Nussbaum also withheld Foster's diary on Travelgate problems from federal probers for more than a year. Nussbaum was forced to resign for botching damage-control efforts.

O is for Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, the frequent flier who drew up an enemies list of reporters, hired an image consultant at taxpayer expense, and has run up huge tabs on overseas trips.

P is for Pardons, which President Clinton has refused to rule out for individuals like Susan McDougal who potentially could provide evidence against him.

P is also for White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta, expected to leave in a second Clinton term -- with the prospect that his deputy, Harold Ickes, could replaces him. Senate Republicans want perjury charges brought against Ickes for his answers on Whitewater damage control.

Q is for all the questions -- unanswered -- on Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate, Cattlegate and Billgate.

R is for Sherry Rowlands, the $200-an-hour hooker who revealed her ongoing affair with Clinton political guru Dick Morris, the author of Clinton's family-values strategy, forcing Morris to resign.

R is also for the Rose Law Firm, where Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster, Webster Hubbell and William Kennedy were partners, as was Joseph Giroir, a key figure in the Lippo group.

S is for Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater independent counsel probing Filegate, Travelgate and Vince Foster's death. He has won 15 convictions or guilty pleas, including both McDougals and former Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, who was forced to resign. Starr says his probes are active and ongoing, and there is widespread speculation he will have more indictments after the election, possibly including one of Hillary Clinton.

T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel staffers like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies. White House memos say Hillary Clinton was behind the firings -- she denies it -- and that she was spurred on by Clinton Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was seeking a piece of the lucrative White House charter business.

U is for undue influence and the question of whether that is what Lippo was seeking though megabucks contributions to Democrats. Lippo has close ties to Indonesia's brutal dictatorship, responsible for near-genocide in East Timor, which it occupied two decades ago.

V is for Vince Foster, the former Hillary Clinton law partner who became a White House lawyer and was found dead, an apparent suicide with a gunshot wound to the head. He apparently was a central figure in Travelgate and Filegate and handled Whitewater matters for the Clintons. Starr is examining his death and has yet to confirm former prober Bob Fiske's conclusion that it was a suicide in the park where Foster was found.

W is for Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that started it all, with questions about whether the Clintons improperly benefitted from funds Jim McDougal's Madison Guarantee savings-and-loan, which went belly up, costing taxpayers an estimated $60 million.

X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing records that were found in the white House book room, two years after they were first sought. The pages had Mrs. Clinton's fingerprints around the section on Castle Grande - there were red ink notations in the late Vince Foster's handwriting.

Y is for the the young White House aides who were hired by the Clinton administration despite FBI background checks that found "recent" use of hard drugs like cocaine, crack and hallucinogens.

Z is for zippers -- the one Paula Jones claims that the then-Arkansas governor undid (see J) and the one Gennifer Flowers claims Clinton undid during what she insists was a long-running affair. He denies the claims.

And because of that we don't want them back in the White House.


Duh.

[Bird of Prey]

You're reading into my comment all kinds of things that weren't there. Haskins said it perfectly: she's running a smart, targeted campaign. That's a compliment, not an insult. She's taking advantage of her popularity among various groups of people using practical political organizational experience and skills. Not a damn thing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't drift into Nixonian dirty tricks (the kind of crap certain Huckabee supporters are pulling against McCain and Romney in South Carolina). And (as it seems necessary because you tend to cast everything into a you're-for-me-or-you're against me mode), I'm not seriously opposed to Hillary Clinton; I'll have no difficulty voting for her if she becomes the Dem nominee. My preference, stated elsewhere, is for Obama, but it's not a huge margin.

And in this thread, as in the others of similar nature here, I'm playing analyst rather than advocate. So is Haskins. He and me disagree rather big on political candidate preferences, but we tend to wind up agreeing here, or close to it, on analytical points. Try to step back and look a little less passsionately at what's going on in this most interesting of Presidential races.

caw


Analyst aside, bbird, I object to her being distanced from her own accomplishments, and her accomplishments in no small measure entail reaching her voters in a heartfelt way. And I also want to point out that she's had to work extremely hard personally for her votes. Her appearances, her travel schedule has got to be more rigorous than any candidate out there. I could be wrong, but for example, Obama was on his way home today; she was on the campaign trail to. . St. Louis I think?

[karo.ambrose]

I'm sorry, I'm just super stoked when I see this on MSNBC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqoqbvnccMI).

With 98% of the precincts reporting and 200 votes ahead of McCain, I think it's a safe bet that Ron Paul is the second place finisher for Nevada. Romney was a dead giveaway for first, what with the strong Mormon population in Nevada. Say "hasta la pasta" to all of Ron Paul's fringe candidate assumptions.

He didn't ceiling out in New Hampshire, like some had predicted, he only grew from there. I'm hoping for a strong showing in South Carolina... maybe a 4th or even **crosses fingers** a 3rd place finish.

He's got enough money to be a viable player in the Super Tuesday states, so hopefully this 2nd place finish will give him momentum.

[William Haskins]

Analyst aside, bbird, I object to her being distanced from her own accomplishments, and that in no small measure entails reaching her voters in a heartfelt way. And I also want to point out that she's had to work extremely hard personally for her votes. Her appearances, her travel schedule has got to be more rigorous than any candidate out there. I could be wrong, but for example, Obama was on his way home today; she was on the campaign trail to. . St. Louis I think?

you're being silly. she's not rosa parks, BoP.

she's just another of the potential frontrunners. she's working no harder than any of them. just smarter.

[billythrilly7th]

Analyst aside, bbird, I object to her being distanced from her own accomplishments

I ask this in all seriousness.

What has she accomplished?

And what do mean she's been distanced from them?

[billythrilly7th]

He's got enough money to be a viable player in the Super Tuesday states, so hopefully this 2nd place finish will give him momentum.

I also hope that although I'm 38 I still have a chance of playing for the Yankees one day.

I hit really good in the batting cage today.

I think I have some momentum going into the spring open tryout.

[InfinityGoddess]

Have you been living in America for the past 15 years?

We hate Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary F'Ing Clinton.

We hated her lonnnnnnnnnnnng before her political career was even a speck of possibility.

I actually don't mind the policies of Bubba and Hill. They're pretty centered most of the time.




I could list all of the Bush scandals, which by the way, outdid Bill Clinton by far.

[Rolling Thunder]

I liked the 'Bunny Ranch' segment about 'Pimpin' for Paul' on the news tonight. It seems that, sometimes, it helps if your supporters lay down on the job. ;)

[blacbird]

Analyst aside, bbird, I object to her being distanced from her own accomplishments, and that in no small measure entails reaching her voters in a heartfelt way. And I also want to point out that she's had to work extremely hard personally for her votes. Her appearances, her travel schedule has got to be more rigorous than any candidate out there. I could be wrong, but for example, Obama was on his way home today; she was on the campaign trail to. . St. Louis I think?

Obama's home is Chicago. You can bet that's a brief stop, probably no more than an overnight, on his way to South Carolina. Where Clinton will be headed as well, after her stop in St. Louis, which likewise is on the way to SC. All three of the principal Democratic candidates (Edwards included) have been working their butts off in personal appearances for a year now. You'd be hard-pressed to call any of them lazy in regard to their campaigning (contrast with Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani).

caw

[billythrilly7th]

If Obama loses South Carolina, I think it's over.

If he wins, then it's still up in the air.

But I have to say I think Hillary has it just about locked up.

Super Tuesday she's gonna rack them up.

The whole night....

"CNN is calling California for Hillary..."

"ABC News is projecting that Hillary has won NY."

Etc....

:Hammer:
Thrilly


:ROFL:

[Bird of Prey]

Have you been living in America for the past 15 years?

We hate Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary F'Ing Clinton.

We hated her lonnnnnnnnnnnng before her political career was even a speck of possibility.

I actually don't mind the policies of Bubba and Hill. They're pretty centered most of the time.

We hate them because of .....



And because of that we don't want them back in the White House.


Duh.


Well, Billy, you can dredge up all of these "transgressions" and at the end of the day, what have you got? Bill was disbarred.

He lied about an affair. But Bill is not running for president. Have you forgotten? And if all you have on Hillary is Whitewater, well, you've got more than most, because nobody else can seem to convict her of anything. There's not even enough evidence for a grand jury.

[Bird of Prey]

you have nothing to back that up.

Explain the pure vitriol of her opponents. It's fear.

you're being silly. she's not rosa parks, BoP.

she's just another of the potential frontrunners. she's working no harder than any of them. just smarter.


Nobody said she was Rosa Parks. But she is working extremely hard, and to her credit. And yes, I think her public appearances have been stepped up and she is reaching out in a very personal way toward her potential voters. And she's starting to convince them that she really does care.

[blacbird]

If Obama loses South Carolina, I think it's over.

If he wins, then it's still up in the air.

But I have to say I think Hillary has it just about locked up.

Super Tuesday she's gonna rack them up.


See? Even the Trilzish One can be properly analytical when he wants to be. The current polls suggest this is likely. Clinton leads in most of the 17 Super Tuesday states, including the two biggest, New York and California. Obama gets Illinois, obviously.

Clinton looks like a winner in Florida as well. So Obama needs some fresh groundswell of support to close some gaps, and right quicklike.

And we could well be talking a Clinton-Obama ticket for the Dems (although obviously there are many variables before Convention time). Their disagreements during the campaigning have been fairly civil and non-abrasive by the standards of many recent campaigns, and by the standards the Republican candidates are setting, especially in South Carolina.

caw

[Bird of Prey]

Obama's home is Chicago. You can bet that's a brief stop, probably no more than an overnight, on his way to South Carolina. Where Clinton will be headed as well, after her stop in St. Louis, which likewise is on the way to SC. All three of the principal Democratic candidates (Edwards included) have been working their butts off in personal appearances for a year now. You'd be hard-pressed to call any of them lazy in regard to their campaigning (contrast with Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani).

caw

According to the news, Obama would be home for several days. I'm just quoting what I heard; I think it was Fox.

And I haven't called anybody lazy, but I think Hillary's got it pegged that she has to work a little harder to make her presence felt. I think it's paying off.

[blacbird]

Gawd. I can see it coming now: Romney vs. Clinton.

Three elections cycles and losers all around.

Sorry we can't get Rush Limbaugh to run for you, Robs.

caw

[robeiae]

Sorry we can't get Rush Limbaugh to run for you, Robs.

caw
I just want to vote for someone, as opposed to voting against someone else. It's been a while. A long while.

And I was actually warming to Obama a little--despite his vote on the amnesty bill. Oh well...

[billythrilly7th]

And if all you have on Hillary is Whitewater,

I believe that Hillary is more corrupt than Bill.

B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing records. Those records -- which raised questions about Mrs. Clinton's role in the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed in 1994. They were missing until early 1996, when they turned up in a White House room next to her office. She says she doesn't know how they got there.

" :Shrug: "
Hillary

C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to turn a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle futures, a feat experts say was virtually impossible in normal trading.

H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in Filegate, Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle Grande. She denies any wrongdoing.

T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel staffers like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies. White House memos say Hillary Clinton was behind the firings -- she denies it -- and that she was spurred on by Clinton Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was seeking a piece of the lucrative White House charter business.

X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing records that were found in the white House book room, two years after they were first sought. The pages had Mrs. Clinton's fingerprints around the section on Castle Grande - there were red ink notations in the late Vince Foster's handwriting.

B is my favorite.

"They just suddenly appeared.

I also love....

http://www.americandaily.com/article/17059

When Hillary Clinton decided to run for the New York Senate, she knew needed to reach a vast array of voters, in order to win the Senate. What better way for her to get votes, than to use her husband’s power of pardoning or commute prison sentences.

At the time, Clinton's campaign was desperately trying to boost stagnant support for her among the state's key Jewish voters. Her opponent, former Long Island Republican Rep. Rick Lazio, seemed to be gaining momentum.

She knew that New York's Orthodox and chasidic communities would be a hard sell, as they were expressing their personal dislike for her and her positions, particularly regarding Israel. She needed to show she could win some support in Orthodox circles.

In August of 2000, Hillary Clinton campaigned in a small town north of New York City, called New Square, a Chasidic Jewish village of 7,000 residents in Rockland County New York. (Which formerly voted overwhelmingly for arch-conservative Sen. Alfonse D'Amato).
New Square was coping with a series of scandals in which top village officials were going to jail or fleeing the country for swindling tens of millions of dollars in federal education, housing and small-business subsidies in a decade-long scam.

One widely publicized case included laundering money through a phony yeshiva set up in Brooklyn.

Rabbi Twersky desperately wanted to win clemency for the four noted New Square residents who on Jan. 25, 1999 were convicted of 21 charges including conspiracy, embezzlement, and wire and mail fraud. Kalmen Stern, 42, was sentenced to 78 months; David Goldstein, 54, of Brooklyn, 70 months; Jacob Elbaum 40, 57 months; and Benjamin Berger, 30 months. They were ordered to pay back millions of dollars.

She met with Rabbi David Twersky, and afterwards, New Square officials began campaigning for Clinton, even outside the village, though Clinton's positions on such core issues as school vouchers, abortion and Israel were in opposition to New Square.

Community members drove around in cars with loudspeakers urging — in Yiddish — Rockland County Orthodox residents to vote for her. A Yiddish weekly endorsed her based on lobbying from New Square.

"It's not a secret their support was based on the hope that she would look, kindly towards the people that are incarcerated," said Rabbi Ronnie Greenwald, a prominent Orthodox leader who lives in nearby Monsey. "They really went out and helped her. It was an honest attempt to get votes and get support for Hillary Clinton."

On Election Day, Clinton carried New Square, 1,400 to 12. It was a glaring exception to much of the Orthodox world and New Square's chasidic neighbors, who voted overwhelmingly for Lazio.

Several weeks after her senate victory, she met with Rabbi David Twersky again, attending a meeting in the White House with President Clinton.

During a scheduled 15-minute meeting on Dec. 22 that stretched into 45 minutes, according to New Square officials, Rabbi Twersky raised the issue of seeking mercy for the New Square four and help for fugitive Chaim Berger in Israel.

Rabbi Twersky has never publicly commented about the sins of his community members, and repeatedly turned down interviews to explain the scandal.

That visit launched a series of events that culminated in a controversial last-minute clemency action on behalf of New Square by outgoing President Clinton.

The decision by President Clinton to commute the sentences of four prominent New Square men who stole tens of millions from the federal government in a phony yeshiva scheme enraged law enforcement officials.

I know to a dumb man like me that it seems there was a votes for pardons deal worked out.

I realize that smarter people can figure out what really occurred that brought Hillary a Saddam Hussein like 99% of a vote.

:Shrug:

Yeah, let's get more scandals and four years of complete and utter United States divisivness going.

WHo's up for it?

:hi:

Let's do it. Four more years of rabid blue vs red battles.

Just what we need at just the right time in our history.

[Bird of Prey]

Yeah, let's get more scandals and four years of complete and utter United States divisivness going.

WHo's up for it?

:hi:

Let's do it. Four more years of rabid blue vs red battles.

Just what we need at just the right time in our history.


But you think a vote for Rudy is a vote for unity?? Lol!!

Only if he runs as an independent.

[William Haskins]

my daughter's in a play tonight, so you're on your own for SC.

first few votes shake out thusly:

mccain - 38%
huckabee - 23%
romney - 19%
giuliani - 5%
paul - 3%
thompson - 12%
hunter - 0%

track results here:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#val=SC

[billythrilly7th]

I think Hillary's got it pegged that she has to work a little harder to make her presence felt.

Yeah, because she's such an unknown.

:rolleyes:

If she's gonna get her name out there she's gonna have to really work a little harder.


Where do you come up with these ridiculous statements?

[sandyn]

I think what BoP meant is that because Hillary is a woman, she has to work harder.

Seems right to me! 'Tis the way it's always been...

[billythrilly7th]

But you think a vote for Rudy is a vote for unity?? Lol!!

Only if he runs as an independent.

You're right. A vote for Rudy is not a vote for unity. We agree!!

And honestly, I'm off Rudy. As much as I love his policies and go it alone attitude, I'm tired of the fighting.

I want someone who can unite the clans. McCain can do that. I think Romney too.

I don't want four or eight more years of fighting.

All I want are low taxes, dead terrorists and some slight unity. McCain is the man for the job.

Obama can unite but we'll have high taxes and probably lots of terrorists.

Hillary can go high taxes, dead terrorists and massive disunity.

I'm sorry, Rudy. You know I love you, but I must go McCain.

[billythrilly7th]

my daughter's in a play tonight, so you're on your own for SC.

first few votes shake out thusly:

paul - 3%

That's a shame karo.ambrose.

It looks like Ron Paul has lost all that recently gained momentum.

Oh well.

He made a helluva run.

[John Paton]

I'm sorry, Rudy. You know I love you, but I must go McCain.

Why are you so blinkered and vote for a Republican when some of the greatest Presidents have been Democrats - inc William Jefferson ?

Let's face it - if either Hussein Obama or that wonderful and inspiring Lady Hillary get the Dem nod they will be the next President.

[karo.ambrose]

That's a shame karo.ambrose.

It looks like Ron Paul has lost all that recently gained momentum.

Oh well.

He made a helluva run.

Hey, a second place finish for a guy most people had written off long ago is pretty damn good. Like Chris Matthews said, he'll be in this until the republican convention... he isn't placing all of his chips on one state. And if he doesn't win the nom, he'll most likely go independent. Who knows?

[blacbird]

Hhe isn't placing all of his chips on one state.

Both of 'em?

caw

[karo.ambrose]

Giuliani is now behind Paul in SC. After all his very low showings, hopefully now they'll stick Giuliani at the last podium on the debates instead of Paul.

[karo.ambrose]

Both of 'em?

caw

If chips were cash, it'd be around 30 million.

[billythrilly7th]

Hey, a second place finish for a guy most people had written off long ago is pretty damn good. Like Chris Matthews said, he'll be in this until the republican convention... he isn't placing all of his chips on one state. And if he doesn't win the nom, he'll most likely go independent. Who knows?

Everyone knows.

He's a loser.

He came in second because only Romney and he actively campaigned in the Nevada.

And now a mere hour later he's back at a more comfortable 3% in SC having lost all the momentum you spoke of.

And why I even waste my time conversing with you about him will be up to the historians to decide as they look at my political legacy long after I'm gone.

This will be the last one, historians. Be kind.

Thank you.

[Monkey]

Candidate```````````Votes

John McCain````````28,799````````36%
Mike Huckabee `````22,369` `````` 28%
Fred Thompson ````12,287 ````````15%
Mitt Romney ```````11,819 ````````15%
Ron Paul ```````````3,227 ````````4%
Rudy Giuliani `````````1,819 ```````2%
Duncan Hunter ```````197 `````````0%

19% reporting

[Monkey]

John McCain `````35%
Mike Huckabee ```29%
Fred Thompson ``15%
Mitt Romney `````15%
Ron Paul`````````4%
Rudy Giuliani ``````2%
Duncan Hunter ````0%

33% reporting.

Edit: (at 43% reporting, the numbers are pretty similar)

[Monkey]

Monkey projects McCain as the winner in SC.

[Monkey]

John McCain `````````73,771`````````` 34%
Mike Huckabee ```````64,376 ``````````29%
Fred Thompson ``````35,611`````````` 16%
Mitt Romney `````````32,881 ``````````15%
Ron Paul ````````````8,260 ````````````4%
Rudy Giuliani `````````4,388``````````` 2%
Duncan Hunter ````````507 ````````````0%

McCain out in front, Huckabee doing well...Romney falls from 1st in Nevada to 4th in SC...Paul, Giuliani, and Hunter get spanked. Sorry, Karo.

[eldragon]

I was just in Vegas at Christmas, and I really thought the Review/Journal was suggesting that Guliani was the man for Vegas.

Hey, I was in the culinary union for close to ten years, and as we know, they endorsed Obama. So? The Culinary union is made up of cocktail servers, food service servers / workers, kitchen workers, guest room attendants and porters, both bar and general cleaning porters. I knew they wouldn't go vote. I knew they wouldn't go vote. I knew it.

I voted for Clinton twice when I was in that job, in that union, in that town. If the casino had told me to vote Republican, which they did, I would have voted democrat just to disobey.

If the union had told me to vote for Obama and I didnt' know Obama, I may have voted against him just because I could.

I don't think endorsements mean much. The workers in the corporation are like the ants, they do all the work. The suits come around every-so-often to tell them to do this, to do that. "Pick this up." "Wear this uniform." "Show up to work at this time."

When they tell you who to vote for, you say "up yours, Maurice!"

[Bird of Prey]

Monkey projects McCain as the winner in SC.


Yes. I believe you're right, Monkey. I can't tell you how delighted I am that Huckabee's popcorn popped squirrel story didn't hold much sway.

I think the country has outgrown the Huckster.

[NikeeGoddess]

Clinton was leading among Latinos in every pre-election poll I saw, so that was no surprise. And it's not like she didn't have union backing. She just didn't have the culinary workers union. She had, in particular, endorsements from the teachers' and government workers' union
Hey, I was in the culinary union for close to ten years, and as we know, they endorsed Obama. So? The Culinary union is made up of cocktail servers, food service servers / workers, kitchen workers, guest room attendants and porters, both bar and general cleaning porters. I knew they wouldn't go vote. I knew they wouldn't go vote. I knew it. quite the contrary. they did go vote and latinos voted 2 to 1 for clinton over obama. why? because she went on foot and knocked on doors to their homes in their neighborhoods. you think news like that doesn't spread like a wildfire?!

Nobody said she was Rosa Parks. But she is working extremely hard, and to her credit. And yes, I think her public appearances have been stepped up and she is reaching out in a very personal way toward her potential voters. And she's starting to convince them that she really does care. in NH when there was all the hype that she "found her voice" - it was the voice calling out to women voters that - this is your chance to get a woman in charge. and she doesn't want all those long hard years in the political arena to go wasted. this hits home for so many women who have to work in glass ceilings all day. and she let them know that she feels the same way.

And we could well be talking a Clinton-Obama ticket for the Dems (although obviously there are many variables before Convention time). Their disagreements during the campaigning have been fairly civil and non-abrasive by the standards of many recent campaigns, and by the standards the Republican candidates are setting, especially in South Carolina. this would be ideal if obama would agree to taking a second seat. it's really only fair since she has so many more years in politics. then he could spend the next 4 or 8 years getting enough experience to step up and succeed her.

[billythrilly7th]

I think the country has outgrown the Huckster.

Now you're going in the opposite yet same way you did with Hillary.

The country never was regular grown with the Huckster. It was Iowa.

You put everything on Iowa.

"Hillary has now caught on with America."

The only reason you say that is because she lost in Iowa. The only blip in what is years as being the front runner.

"America has outgrown Huckster."

The only reason you say that is because Huckster won Iowa. The only positive in what is years as being nowhere on the radar.




With that said, I'm glad Huckabee is out.

It's down to McCain and Romney and although doubtful maybe Rudy can pull something out in Florida. I hope not at this point.

[billythrilly7th]

this would be ideal if obama would agree to taking a second seat.

That would be really stupid of him to hitch his wagon to the Clinton scandal and being hated by half the country machine.

If he loses he should steer clear of those two and keep on Senatoring.

He'll get another shot.

He will be the first half black half white President.

As long as he has good security.

[Monkey]

John McCain````````````33%
Mike Huckabee``````````30%
Fred Thompson `````````16%
Mitt Romney````````````15%
Ron Paul```````````````4%
Rudy Giuliani````````````2%


Can I call it, or what? :D

[billythrilly7th]

Explain the pure vitriol of her opponents. It's fear.

Why did her opponents hate her from 1992-2000?

Why did her opponents hate her when she was attempting Hilcare?

It's the same vitriol she was getting when doing Hilcare and lying about billing records and trading votes for pardons.

We.hate.the.Clintons

They're the most ruthless lying corrupt man.woman tandem since Bonnie and Clyde.

This wasn't invented out of nowhere.

If Bill and Hill had a clean record they would have got the normal crap that a dem nominee and then President would get.

Jimmy Carter was a horrible President but everyone seemed to like him and his lovely wife Rosalynn.

Us repubs didn't really hate Al and Tipper. We like Obama and his wife whatever her name is.

The Clinton's are the worst.

They proved it time after time.

Amidst all the scandals I listed, the President was getting blowjobs in the oval office from interns!!

The most disgusting disgrace of a President AS A HUMAN we've ever had.

I had no real problems with policy Clinton. Welfare reform. Bombed some people. He was a decent Prez.

But the two of them are lying, corrupt, sacks of *&^(*^%.

Didn't you see PRimary Colors!!?

That's why we hate them. That's why her negatives are through the roof.

And I'm sorry if I don't want four more years of governing by polls. My favorite way of deciding public policy.

"Morris, do a poll to see whether I should veto this bill or not."

You act as if this is some kind of new phenomenon.

"Wow, half the country really hates Hillary! Where did this come from!? My god!! They must be nervous she's gonna win to all of a sudden turn on her in such a vicious way."

And the weird problem is that because of the Clinton's unquenchable desire for power they govern from the middle which makes a lot of their policies okay with me. SOme of them at least. But this country needs some unity and non scandal ridden past people in the White House.

Four years of battles and investigations and governing in order to get another four years.

The country is weary right now. Give me an inspiring man like Obama or a respected war hero like McCain.

God help us.

With that said, if Hillary is elected, I will say "Lead me my President!!"


Thank you.

[Monkey]

(Actually, I'm just glad Huckabee didn't win. I really don't like that guy.)

[billythrilly7th]

(Actually, I'm just glad Huckabee didn't win. I really don't like that guy.)

He's very funny.

Too religious fanatuckabee.

Glad he lost.

He should be done now.

Let's narrow the field.

Hillary and oBam.

McCain and Romney.

I'll give one free pass to Rudy for Florida.

And that's that.

Everyone else drop out please A.S.A.P.

You're losers.

It's over.

Better luck in 2012.

[blacbird]

I bow to Der Triltszer. He is correctamundo.

And, even further, it's looking pretty promising for a McCain-Clinton race.

Which brings a great amusing irony. Two years ago, that was everybody's bet. Even a year ago, when the real running started, it was everybody's bet. Then McCain stumbled, both financially and in the strategy of pandering to the evangelical poohbahs, which emphatically did not work. Six months ago, he was given up for dead, and it was all Rudy, all the time.

Meanwhile, Obama proved to be other than a flash-in-the-pan, and was making serious inroads on Clinton's Dem coronation. Even Edwards was hanging around enough to be troublesome. Then Obama wins the Iowa caucuses, and Hillary's in actual trouble, with a capital T, and that rhymes with P, and that stands for President. Headed to New Hampshire, she could ill afford to lose there, and it looked like she just might.

But she didn't. Meantime, Rudy, for reasons known to no one, not even himself, chose to contest zero of the early caucuses and primaries (well, he did actually spend a lot of money in New Hampshire, and got forced into sandbagging there, pretending it didn't matter when his poll numbers began to go down the toilet). And McCain, in contrast, worked his tired old butt off, the old-fashioned hard way of a political campaign, and damn if he didn't pull off the Lazarus trick.

So now, what goes around comes around, and we're staring down the barrel of a McCain-Clinton race. I know a lot of you conservs here detest Hillary, but from my perspective, this race would not make me unhappy. I would not have the cloud of dread hanging over me that I had in each of the last two elections. Out of that race we would get a capable Chief Exec. I'll take that, with a smile.

Meanwhile, Huckabee, if he really has been interested in a Vice-Presidential slot, has probably shot himself through both feet in South Carolina, with his connection to the sleazy campaign shenanigans there against McCain and Romney both. I know he disavowed those efforts, but did he actually ever demand that they stop? Not to my knowledge, he didn't. He flarking needed somebody to do that, and he knew it, and he also knew that he couldn't afford any whiff of association with it. Nobody's ever accused him of being stupid.

But it didn't work, and the likelihood of John McCain selecting Mike Huckabee as a running mate is probably less than that of O.J. Simpson getting a contract to do tourism ads for Las Vegas.

Romney, on the other hand . . . Can we say, Clinton-Obama vs. McCain-Romney?

Stay tuned.

caw

[blacbird]

this would be ideal if obama would agree to taking a second seat. it's really only fair since she has so many more years in politics. then he could spend the next 4 or 8 years getting enough experience to step up and succeed her.

It would be hard for me to think he wouldn't take the offer, if it were given. It would make him damnear a lock for a front-runner Presidential candidacy down the road, eight years down if Dems win this one, four years along if they don't. He's now only, what, 48? Plenty of time, and opportunities. Plus, he doesn't have to vacate his Senate seat (neither does Hillary, BTW) if they lose this one. And if they win, that would give him ample time to cure the charge of "lack of experience".

Plus, given his charisma, smarts and oratorial skills, the ability to send a Vice-President Obama out on the world stage to represent the United States would be magnificent. Contrast that image with Dick Cheney, if it doesn't make your head hurt too much.

caw

[billythrilly7th]

It would be hard for me to think he wouldn't take the offer, if it were given. It would make him damnear a lock for a front-runner Presidential candidacy down the road

Just like Al "couldn't carry his home state and given 8 years of relative peace and prosperity shouldn't have had the race be even close let alone decided by the Supreme Court" Gore?

I think it would be wise for Obama to stay clear of the Clintons. Let them do their thing. Don't soil yourself with their ridiculousness, Obama. Stay gold, Ponyboy. Stay gold.

You'll get your chance to be the first half black half white President.

[blacbird]

We.hate.the.Clintons

You've done a lot of good work in this thread, Trilzy, but here you err. YOU.hate.the.Clintons. And some other people do. But I'll let you in on a secret:

If Bill Clinton could run again, and were doing so right now, he'd win in a walk. Hillary doesn't have his personal mojo and campaign karma, so it's harder for her. And, yeah, no question, she's polarizing, and one of the reasons I prefer Barack. But do NOT underestimate her political savvy, smarts (likely even greater than Bill's) and work ethic.

You overplay the "corruption" charges rather badly. Especially in contrast to the Chief Executive of the United States of America, and the people he surrounded himself with during the past seven years.

caw

[Monkey]

Interesting that Obama ended up getting more delegates out of Nevada than Clinton did.

Very interesting indeed.

[Monkey]

Ah. And now I see that Hunter has dropped out.

[blacbird]

Ah. And now I see that Hunter has dropped out.

Well, dam.

caw

[blacbird]

Interesting that Obama ended up getting more delegates out of Nevada than Clinton did.

Very interesting indeed.

Doesn't mean much, really. It resulted from the same kind of dumb-luck electoral arrangement that gave George W. Bush the Presidency, via a one-vote Electoral College margin, despite losing the national popular vote. And I believe it's a one-delegate thing. Probably not going to mean anything, ultimately.

caw

[InfinityGoddess]

If Bill Clinton could run again, and were doing so right now, he'd win in a walk. Hillary doesn't have his personal mojo and campaign karma, so it's harder for her.


It'd be a lot easier for her if the pundits weren't going on about her being a woman. I mean, come on, there are third world countries that have had female leaders, as well as England and currently Germany, among others. Why can't we?

And you're right. More people liked the Clintons than the ones who didn't. Even if Hillary is the nominee, people will still vote for her because they're not impressed with what the Republicans, most notably Bush, have done.

[billythrilly7th]

You've done a lot of good work in this thread, Trilzy, but here you err. YOU.hate.the.Clintons. And some other people do. But I'll let you in on a secret:

If Bill Clinton could run again, and were doing so right now, he'd win in a walk.

They are loved AND hated. No two people have divided this country in a more deep visceral gut way than them. I'm not saying he wouldn't win if the love people came up big.

But there's no middle ground with them. And they are hated by 44% of the country. Hated.

You overplay the "corruption" charges rather badly. Especially in contrast to the Chief Executive of the United States of America, and the people he surrounded himself with during the past seven years.

Here's the difference between Bush scandals and Clinton scandals.

Clintons scandals are about personal gain and power. All directly helping them.

From cattle futures and investment scandals to vote swapping, etc.

Bush doesn't have those types of scandals. There's really only one Bush scandal of any merit. Plamegate. ANd that one was about policy.

Bush's scandals are about policy. Illegal wiretapping, etc.

And the list is really pretty short. And the Abramoff stuff really doesn't have much to do with him directly. Bush is not a corrupt guy. If you think he's dumb, fine. If you think his policies have ruined the country, fine, but all clear minded people know that's a pretty decent fellow who found himself President during a really tough time.

Poor bastard.

Thought he'd do some tax stuff, maybe spend on the military a little, try and have a good economy, deal with some international stuff of minor importance.

And then he finds himself listening to Pet Goat when America is attacked and a massive hurricane hits New Orleans.

Poor guy.

Anyway....the only reason the Clinton's aren't in jail is because they had really great loyal friends who were willing to go to jail for them.

For arguments sake, let's say the Clinton's never did anything illegal ever under any circumstance. All of these scandals are just manufactured ridiculouisness.

But we're gonna go through the same shit again with them. Real or manufactured. I can't take it anymore.

I just want some unity.

It's been 16 years of battling and scandals and red hates blue and blue hates red and independant counsels and investigations and it's not good.

I just know that if McCain or Obama were President we can get back to some civility and stop the childish high school antics.

Dems respect McCain.

From what I see, including myself and even robeaie today, conservs respect Obama.

We can have some sort of civil discourse without it delving into childish antics.

It's enough already.

Clinton's back in it's just more of the same.

And then a scandal.

And here we go again.

I'm tired of it, blacky. I'm tired.

It would just be nice to, even if we disagree with their policies, to have the entire country have respect for the President again.

That's why I'm off Rudy.

"He's a dictator, he advocates torture..etc."

Okay..even if I disagree wholeheartedly, I just don't want to hear it anymore.

I'd like to visit some other forums here at AW.

I hear there are really good ones for writing and stuff.

[blacbird]

It'd be a lot easier for her if the pundits weren't going on about her being a woman. I mean, come on, there are third world countries that have had female leaders, as well as England and currently Germany, among others. Why can't we?

You are absolutely correct, but, frankly, the gender issue is pretty weak, and hasn't been heavily played, much as the race issue with Obama hasn't been heavily played. Certainly not as heavily as either would have been ten or twenty years ago. It appears we have grown up a little. The very fact that we are, at last, going to have either a woman or a man from a historically oppressed racial minority, as a major party candidate for, and very possible winner, of the Presidency of the United States of America, says a lot. We should pat ourselves on the back a little for this.

And the best part is, neither one of them is in this position because of being a woman or being black. They are there because they are damn well the best people around in the political campaign in which they are engaged. That's the way it should be. Always. Always. Always. Hard to be anything but happy about that.

And, even though the Repubs had no minority or female candidates this cycle, they seem to be drifting toward the best of their candidates available, and that's admirable, too. Funny how actually having competition brings out the best in a political campaign, isn't it? Kind of like Repubs usually profess the economic system should work. Drives 'em crazy when it happens within their own party's politics, but, hey, let's hope it continues to drive 'em crazy. We might not get more George W. Bushes under a merit-based system of that sort.

caw

[Monkey]

Doesn't mean much, really. It resulted from the same kind of dumb-luck electoral arrangement that gave George W. Bush the Presidency, via a one-vote Electoral College margin, despite losing the national popular vote. And I believe it's a one-delegate thing. Probably not going to mean anything, ultimately.

caw

Yes, it was a dumb-luck one-delegate thing, and it really shouldn't mean that much in the end--

except for the fact that the media keeps going on and on and on about "momentum". There seems to be a very definite, not-so-subtle suggestion that later states should follow the lead of the earlier states. I keep seeing things about Clinton winning two in a row and gaining momentum...

but I think the fact that Obama actually ended up getting more delegates out of Nevada makes Nevada more of a mixed bag and less of a "Clinton gaining momentum", especially since her previous win was so minor.

So even though it should be sort of a footnote, I see it as keeping the struggle for the democratic nomination very, very tough.

[InfinityGoddess]

Bush doesn't have those types of scandals. There's really only one Bush scandal of any merit. Plamegate. ANd that one was about policy.

Bush's scandals are about policy. Illegal wiretapping, etc.

And the list is really pretty short. And the Abramoff stuff really doesn't have much to do with him directly. Bush is not a corrupt guy. If you think he's dumb, fine. If you think his policies have ruined the country, fine, but all clear minded people know that's a pretty decent fellow who found himself President during a really tough time.



Bush also lied us into a war, disappeared people (often without cause) and had them tortured, made other countries hate us, trying to lie us into another war (and luckily failing), hired cronies who really have no idea what they're doing (heckuva job, Brownie), had Alberto Gonzales fire US Attorneys for not "toeing the line", and rampant corruption, no-bid contracts, and nice tax-cut giveaways to his rich buddies.

Clinton didn't do any of that. All he had was teh sex while on the job. That was all Ken Starr could get on him; a freaking blowjob.

[Monkey]

The very fact that we are, at last, going to have either a woman or a man from a historically oppressed racial minority, as a major party candidate for, and very possible winner, of the Presidency of the United States of America, says a lot. We should pat ourselves on the back a little for this.

And the best part is, neither one of them is in this position because of being a woman or being black. They are there because they are damn well the best people around in the political campaign in which they are engaged. That's the way it should be. Always. Always. Always. Hard to be anything but happy about that.

I completely agree. I think that if nothing else, this opens the door for more women and minorities in the future. Even if Obama doesn't get the nomination, he's proven that a black man can. Clinton has proven that a woman can. Heck, Romney has proven that a Mormon can. And that's good news for all of us, regardless of race, sex, or religion.

[InfinityGoddess]

You are absolutely correct, but, frankly, the gender issue is pretty weak, and hasn't been heavily played, much as the race issue with Obama hasn't been heavily played. Certainly not as heavily as either would have been ten or twenty years ago. It appears we have grown up a little. The very fact that we are, at last, going to have either a woman or a man from a historically oppressed racial minority, as a major party candidate for, and very possible winner, of the Presidency of the United States of America, says a lot. We should pat ourselves on the back a little for this.

And the best part is, neither one of them is in this position because of being a woman or being black. They are there because they are damn well the best people around in the political campaign in which they are engaged. That's the way it should be. Always. Always. Always. Hard to be anything but happy about that.


I agree, but when you listen to a guy like Chris Matthews, it's almost as if some people just haven't grown up, especially on the gender issue.

Luckily, the American people aren't so backwards as that on the whole. Just a few gasbags from the "all-boys club" on television.

[billythrilly7th]

You are absolutely correct, but, frankly, the gender issue is pretty weak, and hasn't been heavily played, much as the race issue with Obama hasn't been heavily played. Certainly not as heavily as either would have been ten or twenty years ago. It appears we have grown up a little. The very fact that we are, at last, going to have either a woman or a man from a historically oppressed racial minority, as a major party candidate for, and very possible winner, of the Presidency of the United States of America, says a lot. We should pat ourselves on the back a little for this.

And the best part is, neither one of them is in this position because of being a woman or being black. They are there because they are damn well the best people around in the political campaign in which they are engaged. That's the way it should be. Always. Always. Always. Hard to be anything but happy about that.

You just contradicted yourself. You say we deserve a "pat on the back" for possibly electing a woman or a black, but then in the next paragraph talk about how they are the best people.

I don't think you give the American people the credit they deserve because of exactly what you said in the second paragraph. We dont need a pat on the back.

I have full confidence that if 18 years ago Hillary or Obama were running under the same conditions they'd be doing great.

I'm more than willing to elect a woman, a black, a jew, and the rest of the gammit if they are qualified.

There may be a small part of the country that wasn't and remains that way.

But I believe that we've been ready for a long time. Decades. Sadly, Jesse jackson and Al Hustler Sharpton didn't inspire confidence. Neither did Geraldine Ferraro.

Uh...

Thank you.

[InfinityGoddess]

You just contradicted yourself. You say we deserve a "pat on the back" for possibly electing a woman or a black, but then in the next paragraph talk about how they are the best people.



They are the best people because they have the qualifications and are excellent speakers, with organized campaigns. BB did not contradict himself at all.

[Monkey]

You just contradicted yourself. You say we deserve a "pat on the back" for possibly electing a woman or a black, but then in the next paragraph talk about how they are the best people.



I live in rural South Texas. I don't see any contradiction there at all.

Just because a candidate is highly qualified doesn't mean that people will automatically overcome their own prejudices (which are often part of their upbringing) and vote for that candidate. The fact that we have come to a place where the majority of us either does not share those sorts of prejudices (racism, sexism, otherism) or can overlook them is certainly laudable.

[billythrilly7th]

Goodnight AW!!!

I know you'll miss me, but I shall return!!

As Douglas Fairbanks once said.

[billythrilly7th]

I live in rural South Texas. I don't see any contradiction there at all.

Just because someone is highly qualified doesn't mean that people will automatically overcome their own prejudices. The fact that we have come to a place where the majority of us either does not share those sorts of prejudices or can overlook them is certainly laudable.

I don't think the people with prejudices are overcoming them. I think the people who were willing to elect a black or a woman have been around for decades, but waiting for a Hillary(in their ignorance but whatever) or a Obama.

I can see blacky's sstatment ringing true in maybe 1967 or 1974 but we've been ready for a long time. No pat on the back needed.


Good night AW!!!!

I'll be back!!

As Arnold Jackson once so eloquently said.

[blacbird]

I have full confidence that if 18 years ago Hillary or Obama were running under the same conditions they'd be doing great.

I'll disagree with you here, owing to the "under the same conditions" phrase. But it's untestable, and therefore not worth arguing. Elizabeth Dole tried cracking the Republican Presidential race eight years ago, and got exactly nowhere. What "conditions" created that roadblock?

We just had, last November, an Indian (of ancestry from the ancient and honorable nation of India) candidate elected governor of Louisiana, one of the historically most racist states in the nation. On the Republican ticket. We're maturing. Go celebrate with a glass of Andre Cold Duck.

caw

[Monkey]

Are you really going to bed this time, BillyThrilly? Really really? :D

[billythrilly7th]

I'll disagree with you here, owing to the "under the same conditions" phrase. But it's untestable, and therefore not worth arguing. Elizabeth Dole tried cracking the Republican Presidential race eight years ago, and got exactly nowhere. What "conditions" created that roadblock?

We just had, last November, an Indian (of ancestry from the ancient and honorable nation of India) candidate elected governor of Louisiana, one of the historically most racist states in the nation. On the Republican ticket. We're maturing. Go celebrate with a glass of Andre Cold Duck.

caw

Ahhh..maybe you're right, what the hell do I know.

Already had my cold duck and....


Bed, Monkey?

No...

I live in the capitol of the Milky Way galaxy.

And http://sounds.wavcentral.com/televis/snl/chevy_live.mp3

Goodnight AW!!

[blacbird]

I live in the capitol of the Milky Way galaxy.

You live in Fairbanks?

caw

[karo.ambrose]

Sorry, Karo.

I'm a survivor
I'm not gon give up
I'm not gon stop
I'm gon work harder
I'm a survivor
I'm gonna make it
I will survive
Keep on survivin'


Yeah, Beyonce's hot.

Waterfalls is a really good song too.

[blacbird]

Waterfalls is a really good song too.

You are aware that that song (I think it's the same one) dates back quite a few years, and wasn't it originally from Prince? Or the artist whose once and future name was Prince?

caw

[Joe270]

Damn, is everyone drunk tonight?

[NikeeGoddess]

I'm more than willing to elect a woman, a black, a jew, and the rest of the gammit if they are qualified.billy boy - are you a member of the KKK? you sound just like them.

[karo.ambrose]

You are aware that that song (I think it's the same one) dates back quite a few years, and wasn't it originally from Prince? Or the artist whose once and future name was Prince?

caw

Really? I did not know that. I'll have to do some googling this morning.

Wait, Waterfalls was from TLC (and another artist)... Survivor was from Destiny's Child. My bad. I was borracho last night.

EDIT: There was a song by Paul McCartney called Waterfalls. I didn't listen to it, but some of the lyrics are similar.