Build Another Jail!!! [Archive] - Absolute Write Water Cooler

billythrilly7th

01-11-2008, 02:08 AM

What is with that hellhole Los Angeles?!

http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/stories/P/PEOPLE_RODRIGUEZ?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=HOME

Former "Lost" star Michelle Rodriguez has found her way out of jail. Rodriguez was released from a Los Angeles County women's jail Wednesday after serving 18 days of a 180-day sentence for violating probation in a drunken driving case.

She was released early under a program that deals with jail overcrowding by allowing nonviolent female inmates to serve as little as 10 percent of their sentence.

The same thing happened two years ago when Rodriguez served just one day of a 60-day jail sentence for probation violation.

As many as 50 women a day are released early, sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore said.

"She was treated the same way we do with all females because of the extent of overcrowding," he said.

Rodriguez was sentenced in October for failing to prove she had done community service and for drinking while wearing an alcohol monitoring device.

The judge who sentenced Rodriguez ordered that she serve the entire sentence. The judge was consulted about the early release but the Sheriff's Department had the final say when jail safety was involved, Whitmore said.

"The sheriff supports, obviously, the desire to have inmates serve their full sentence," but the county has only one women's jail and it is "bursting at the seams," Whitmore said.

Yeah, who knew that woman in Los Angeles would be completely out of control.

But build another jail!

What is going out there?!!

Just do whatever you want!!

Your sentence is meaningless!!! Even if you're a menace to society like this lunatic Michelle Rodriguez. Let's wait until she kills someone.

I can't take it.

Lord, do I hate Los Angeles.

Thank you.

Bird of Prey

01-11-2008, 02:10 AM

Billy, it takes tax dollars to build new jails. You don't want to raise taxes. . .do you?

Tiger

01-11-2008, 02:15 AM

She got out of jail in Hawai`i too. Now, she's CA's problem.

Takvah

01-11-2008, 02:16 AM

billythrilly7th

01-11-2008, 02:17 AM

Billy, it takes tax dollars to build new jails. You don't want to raise taxes. . .do you?

:rolleyes:

Duh. Yeah. If that's what it takes. I'm a republican. We hate criminals.

But you don't have to raise taxes to build new jails. It's called budgeting properly.

Lose the massive and semi massive entitlement programs and you can build more jails.

And there ain't more than six Republicans out there who if asked "can I raise your taxes .02% this year and put the money directly to police, law enoforcment and jails?" who would say "no."

"Less food stamps, more jails!"
Thrilly/Clary '24

blacbird

01-11-2008, 02:37 AM

If you build it, they will come . . .

caw

dgiharris

01-11-2008, 07:13 AM

How about making jails rehabilitative?

Yes I said the "R" word. I know our puritan roots scream for "Punishment" but denying someone their freedom is punishment enough...

Building more jails is merely treating the symptom. Big deal. The problem that needs addressing is multi-fold, but the two biggest ones are:

1) Why do people go to jail to begin with?
2) Why do 75% of inmates return once their stint is over?

I remember reading somewhere that each prisoner costs tax payers about $30,000 per year. Funny how we would rather use that money for prison instead of fixing schools, building more recreation centers, or any other preventative measure that would 'help'.

As for point 2). Unless we are going to just kill all prisoners, the fact that they are then released into society means that it is in OUR best interest to rehabilitate.

We need to get past the 'emotion' of this and look at the data. Prison populations have been steadily growing therefore what we are currently doing IS NOT WORKING. It is insanity to do the same thing yet expect a different result.

well, those are my two cents.

Mel...

.

Shadow_Ferret

01-11-2008, 07:17 AM

1) Why do people go to jail to begin with?
Because they're criminals.

2) Why do 75% of inmates return once their stint is over?
Because they're criminals.

Robert Toy

01-11-2008, 07:18 AM

I have an idea! Outsource them, we damn near do it with everything else.

Outsource them to China.

dgiharris

01-11-2008, 07:27 AM

HI Shadow,

Why do people become criminals?

billythrilly7th

01-11-2008, 07:40 AM

90% Bad Parenting/People Who Shouldn't Have Had Children to Begin With
10% Bad Seeds

Even some good parents can get a rotten apple.

I do believe we can do a better job of trying to give them some ability to NOT return to jail. But most of the 75% would return anyway. It's hard to get a job after doing 15 years for armed robbery. And if you get one, it's usually not so great. And like the dude in HEAT, they go back to trying to skirt the system. Which is where they started.

Regardless, build more jails. Many many more so people can acutally serve their sentences.

180 days = 180 days

dgiharris

01-11-2008, 09:15 AM

Hi all,

One of the biggest fallacies about being human (especially being one raised in this country) is that we each think we are special and other things happen to other people.

What the hell is my point? For most people, criminals are not 'defective' people. They are typically people who made a bad choice while in a bad situation.

How well would you have turned out born in a trailer park, raised by an acoholic, and going to a school that had more students than books?

Now don't confuse my point of view with too much touchy feely liberalness. If these people didn't affect me then I could give a shit. But they do affect me. My taxes, my insurance, the fact that we occupy the same space many times: movie theaters, subways, restaurants, etc. It is in my best interest to put forth the best solution to this problem.

If more prisons were the optimum solution, i'd be all for it. But how does building more prisons reduce the number of prisons, prisoners, and repeat offenders (and thus my tax burden?) Also, we mustn't forget that these are American citizens. If we don't care about each other than who will care for us in our hour of need? Or when we make a mistake? There is a quote (that I will screw up) that goes something like, "You can judge a society by how they treat their weakest members."

Another way to look at this is mathematically. If the lower class grows faster than all the other classes, the net wealth and opportunity for us all drops.

Anyways, if you think your solution through, all the way to the end, you'd see that building more prisons can only lead to building more prisons.

We've been building more prisons and stuffing them to the gills since the 80s. Where are we now? We have more people in jail per 100,000 than anyone in the world. The richest country in the world locking away the most people. Do the math.

Mel...

SC Harrison

01-11-2008, 09:12 PM

How about you take some of California's wealth and you use it to build a jail in... I dunno... Mississippi. You pay the guards in Mississippi a lot less than you likely pay them in California, and you get rid of the rabble. Think of it like The Phantom Zone. Frankly, prisons is one of the few growth industries in this country at the moment. Why not inject employment into areas of the country that are depressed by exporting criminals? Just think the world could have been rid of Paris Hilton for 30 days and she could have been left outside of a trailer park somewhere upon release.

That's already happening. I recently watched a documentary about California convicts being transferred to a prison in either Mississippi or Alabama, and they loved their new home. The food is much better, less crowded, etc. No sign of a chain-gang either, which I'm sure many of these guys were expecting.

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 12:48 AM

90% Bad Parenting/People Who Shouldn't Have Had Children to Begin With

Would the idea of FREE and VOLUNTARY sterilization be bad? Later in life, a person gets his/her act together, they can get it reversed...

Just a thought...

Edit: Of course, if they're truly 'bad parents' they'd probably not consider that option so I suppose it's an idea without much merit. <shrugs>

Take care all -

Bartholomew

01-12-2008, 12:58 AM

:rolleyes:
I'm a republican. We hate criminals.

The above statement makes me wish I could explode my head at whim.

InfinityGoddess

01-12-2008, 01:23 AM

:rolleyes:

Duh. Yeah. If that's what it takes. I'm a republican. We hate criminals.

Well, then, you'd better explain that to Republican politicians, then, Billy. Because they obviously feel so differently.

Robert Toy

01-12-2008, 01:40 AM

Well, then, you'd better explain that to Republican politicians, then, Billy. Because they obviously feel so differently.
You're saying Republican politicians love criminals?

Robert Toy

01-12-2008, 01:45 AM

That's already happening. I recently watched a documentary about California convicts being transferred to a prison in either Mississippi or Alabama, and they loved their new home. The food is much better, less crowded, etc. No sign of a chain-gang either, which I'm sure many of these guys were expecting.
Speaking of happy criminals, have you seen this before?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/09/04/dancing.prisoners/index.html?iref=newssearch

Fantastic!

Haggis

01-12-2008, 01:51 AM

The above statement makes me wish I could explode my head at whim.

We all wish you could, Bart.

:D

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 01:53 AM

We all wish you could, Bart.

:D

And I'm guessing some wish they could even do it for you...and save you the trouble of doing it yourself....

:)

<just kidding!>

InfinityGoddess

01-12-2008, 01:58 AM

You're Republican politicians love criminals?

Here are some lists, if you're interested of all those Republicans engaged in criminal behavior:

http://www.armchairsubversive.org/

http://washparkprophet.blogspot.com/2005/11/republican-criminals.html

That's just the icing on the cake...

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 02:00 AM

Here are some lists, if you're interested of all those Republicans engaged in criminal behavior:

http://www.armchairsubversive.org/

http://washparkprophet.blogspot.com/2005/11/republican-criminals.html

That's just the icing on the cake...

And where is the list of the Democrats engaged in criminal behavior -- just so we can compare and contrast?

InfinityGoddess

01-12-2008, 02:06 AM

And where is the list of the Democrats engaged in criminal behavior -- just so we can compare and contrast?

*sigh* I really wish people would stop painting me as some Democratic partisan and too blind to notice that Dems can be criminals too.

My response was to Billy's claim that "Republicans hate criminals". I'm simply refuting it in the case of Republican politicians, as they claim to be the "law and order" party and yet turn out some of the worst and then protect those same criminals in turn.

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 02:11 AM

*sigh* I really wish people would stop painting me as some Democratic partisan and too blind to notice that Dems can be criminals too.

My response was to Billy's claim that "Republicans hate criminals". I'm simply refuting it in the case of Republican politicians, as they claim to be the "law and order" party and yet turn out some of the worst and then protect those same criminals in turn.

If you're not some Democratic partisan, then you ought to be able to produce a similar list then, right?

As for the 'protect those same criminals in turn'...maybe someone could post a list of the pardons given out by past presidents. Didn't Clinton pardon quite a few?

And I know some don't like to call 'ILLEGAL aliens' actual 'criminals', but which party wants to reward those that are in this country illegally with citizenship?

Thanks for all your help.

:)

Robert Toy

01-12-2008, 02:13 AM

And where is the list of the Democrats engaged in criminal behavior -- just so we can compare and contrast?
It's obvious that Democrats do not engaged in any criminal behavior, that's why they are Democrats.

Not to sound mean spirited or anything but if someone produced a list IG would dismiss it...because???

InfinityGoddess

01-12-2008, 02:25 AM

If you're not some Democratic partisan, then you ought to be able to produce a similar list then, right?

I'm a liberal populist who votes my conscience who is still a registered Republican, if you can believe it.

As for the 'protect those same criminals in turn'...maybe someone could post a list of the pardons given out by past presidents. Didn't Clinton pardon quite a few?

I don't defend Clinton and what he did. But the discussion here is NOT about Democratic criminals. It's about the Republicans. That is all.

And I know some don't like to call 'ILLEGAL aliens' actual 'criminals', but which party wants to reward those that are in this country illegally with citizenship?

Both parties. And we don't have an "illegal immigration" problem. We have an "illegal employer" problem. Go after the businesses who hire these people, and they'll be sent packing back to Mexico. Oh, and get rid of NAFTA for good measure.

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 02:30 AM

I don't defend Clinton and what he did. But the discussion here is NOT about Democratic criminals. It's about the Republicans. That is all.

Actually, it has evolved into including democratic criminals since you brought up republican criminals....and since you were the one who brought up the republican criminals a few of us has asked you for a list of democratic criminals, but you still seem to be ducking producing that list...why?

Robert Toy

01-12-2008, 02:31 AM

I don't defend Clinton and what he did. But the discussion here is NOT about Democratic criminals. It's about the Republicans. That is all.

(my bold)

Sorry IG but the Thread is "Build Another Jail!!! ", not Republicans.

Robert Toy

01-12-2008, 02:33 AM

We all wish you could, Bart.

:D
Has Bart head exploded yet?

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 02:35 AM

Has Bart head exploded yet?

Has IG's?

;)
Edit: This sounds like another thread possibility....if a person was capable of exploding their own head, who's would explode first....

InfinityGoddess

01-12-2008, 02:37 AM

Actually, it has evolved into including democratic criminals since you brought up republican criminals....and since you were the one who brought up the republican criminals a few of us has asked you for a list of democratic criminals, but you still seem to be ducking producing that list...why?

No, you brought up the Democratic criminals. Again, I was responding to Billy's assertion that "Republicans hate criminals". Furthermore, here (http://www.beyonddelay.org/) is a list of criminal politicians on both sides, if that makes you happy.

(my bold)

Sorry IG but the Thread is "Build Another Jail!!! ", not Republicans.

I realize that, but I dare not repeat myself as to why it was brought up.

My-Immortal

01-12-2008, 02:38 AM

No, you brought up the Democratic criminals. Again, I was responding to Billy's assertion that "Republicans hate criminals".

LOL...see...it's starting to sound like a 'debate' now...

Robert Toy

01-12-2008, 02:52 AM

billythrilly7th

01-12-2008, 04:20 AM

Would the idea of FREE and VOLUNTARY sterilization be bad? Later in life, a person gets his/her act together, they can get it reversed...

Just a thought...

Personally, I'm in favor of mandatory sterilization until a man or woman reaches the age of 25.

At the age of 25 they can apply for a parenting license. By proving that they have parenting skills by passing a class and test and then by showing income, they can reverse the sterilization.

At the age of 28, the sterilization is reversed for everybody without passing a test or without proving income.

I know. It kind of sucks to do that last part, but who are we to deny someone the right to bear a child by imposing silly rules like making them pass an easy test and by proving they can support the child. They're 28! They're adults.

If we enacted the Thrilly Plan we could end about 85% percent of the world's problems from disease to poverty to crime.

I could end the ghettos in one generation.

We could turn our schools into heavenly bodies of learning with attentitive children and well paid teachers.

Gangs would end.

Juvenile halls shut down for the most part.

But don't mind me, I'm just a problem solver. Carry on with the way it's been going.

Tiger

01-12-2008, 04:26 AM

Nah... Then, you'd still have STDs. Maybe when you're twenty, you can enter a lottery for a chance at gonies?

dgiharris

01-12-2008, 05:01 AM

Hi all,

Billy, your idea about the sterilization has some merits, but also some flaws--it comes across as a touch elitist. I know a bunch of rich people who are unfit horrible parents. Most serial killers and pedaphiles come from well-to-do families. Also, this is a free country.

Poor people aren't the 'problem' per say, it's just that being poor in this country has a whole set of problems that increase the probability of failure.

I think it is more useful to focus on the problems associated with being poor. Basic economic theory requires some form of lower class; it is inevitable. However, just because we have lower classes doesn't mean they have to be 'poor'. The terms aren't necessarily synonmous.

So what is the fix?

#1 Public education is perhaps the greatest equalizer. So far, middle class schools are okay (not great but decent) but schools in low class areas are quickly failing further and further behind. And the No Child Left Behind initiative was crafted by people who have no clue about the educational system.

#2 Equality under the law. Currently, it is not in practice and thus there is an entire 'system' working against the poor.

#3 Some form of public health care. I know, I'm starting to sound like a communist but the truth is, the medical industry has bound the hands of the free market. It is one of the few industries that purposely keeps the supply (doctors, drugs, etc) low while demand is always high. For instance, do you know how many 4.0GPA students are not accepted into medical schools every year? It is an insane number and NO reason for it. And don't get me started on drug companies...

#4 Decent public transportation which for the most part we have.

Given the technological advances we have had, it should be possible to provide more with less if we are smart about allocation and spending. It's better to spend $5000/yr per student now instead of $30,000/yr per prisoner later.

We also need to apply simple math to a lot of our problems. For example. I am all for immigration but the simple fact is there are 300 Million Americans and hundreds of millions of poor Mexicans and other immigrants. We simply cannot absorb those numbers.

Similarly, did you know that 87 hospitals CLOSED down in California due to illegal immigrants overwhelming the system and not paying. 87 Hospitals can treat approximately 16 millions patients (minor + major) therefore that is 16 million "treatments" that got pushed onto other overloaded hospitals impacting quality, effectiveness, etc.

Simple math + compassion + logic = humane solutions

got to think your solutions through to the end, not just to the point where your ego is happy because the wicked are punished.

Mel...

billythrilly7th

01-12-2008, 05:03 AM

Hi all,

Billy, your idea about the sterilization has some merits, but also some flaws--it comes across as a touch elitist. I know a bunch of rich people who are unfit horrible parents. Most serial killers and pedaphiles come from well-to-do families.

Where did I say you had to be rich?

you.need.to.be.able.to.support.children

Home. Food. Clothes.

You can do that on 32K

You can do that on 1.5 mill.

Wahtever.

proving they can support the child.

The word "rich" does not appear.

Thank you.

SpookyWriter

01-12-2008, 05:17 AM

Most serial killers and pedaphiles come from well-to-do families.Name one.

See blanket statements like these without any foundation in factual representation only weaken the remaining discussion. Most serial killers or pedophiles don't come from rich families. I'll post historical FBI records if needed.

I stopped reading the remainder of your discussion after this flawed point.

InfinityGoddess

01-12-2008, 06:50 AM

Personally, I'm in favor of mandatory sterilization until a man or woman reaches the age of 25.

At the age of 25 they can apply for a parenting license. By proving that they have parenting skills by passing a class and test and then by showing income, they can reverse the sterilization.

At the age of 28, the sterilization is reversed for everybody without passing a test or without proving income.

I know. It kind of sucks to do that last part, but who are we to deny someone the right to bear a child by imposing silly rules like making them pass an easy test and by proving they can support the child. They're 28! They're adults.

I have a better idea: Make contraception and abortion easier to access for those who can least afford it, and cut the red tape in being able to adopt unwanted kids.

It's much better than forced sterilization, imo. For one, you're not violating other people's autonomy rights.

My-Immortal

01-16-2008, 01:06 AM

I have a better idea: Make contraception and abortion easier to access for those who can least afford it, and cut the red tape in being able to adopt unwanted kids.

It's much better than forced sterilization, imo. For one, you're not violating other people's autonomy rights.

Bolding mine

Aren't those a bit contradictory - or do you not consider the unborn child to be a person?

InfinityGoddess

01-16-2008, 01:40 AM

Bolding mine

Aren't those a bit contradictory - or do you not consider the unborn child to be a person?

I do not consider a fetus to be a person, no.

Furthermore, no born human is allowed to live off another being without consent. Therefore, a fetus should likewise not be allowed to live off another without consent, either.

My-Immortal

01-16-2008, 01:59 AM

I do not consider a fetus to be a person, no.

Furthermore, no born human is allowed to live off another being without consent. Therefore, a fetus should likewise not be allowed to live off another without consent, either.

Just curious....if you're all for killing innocent unborn children how is it you're against killing murdering criminals sitting on death row? Aren't these murderers living off the taxpayers? Oh wait, since some people consent to paying to support these murderers it's okay for them to live...right?

But using that line of reasoning, there seems to be a lot of people willing to adopt an unborn child - willing even to support the mother during her pregnancy just so they could have that child - but better for those children to be killed prior to being born (in your opinion), right?

Oh...and what about the unborn children that could actually survive outside the womb? In your opinion, it's okay to kill them too (cause they're an unwanted burden?)

xhouseboy

01-16-2008, 03:00 AM

Robert Toy

01-16-2008, 03:05 AM

Beam me up Scotty

Tiger

01-16-2008, 05:58 AM

Am I in a time loop?

No. What you are witnessing here is convenience-based biological science.

robeiae

01-16-2008, 06:05 AM

Furthermore, no born human is allowed to live off another being without consent.
Never heard of alimony and child-support payments?

Tiger

01-16-2008, 06:16 AM

Never heard of alimony and child-support payments?

Nah. I think the argument is actually being brought forth that a child needs a consenting adult in order to live. This POV would be funny--were it not so unfunny.

robeiae

01-16-2008, 06:18 AM

It's astounding
Time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll...

InfinityGoddess

01-16-2008, 08:52 AM

Just curious....if you're all for killing innocent unborn children how is it you're against killing murdering criminals sitting on death row? Aren't these murderers living off the taxpayers? Oh wait, since some people consent to paying to support these murderers it's okay for them to live...right?

I'm against killing people.

Furthermore, it's actually much more expensive to execute a criminal than it is to just let him rot.

But using that line of reasoning, there seems to be a lot of people willing to adopt an unborn child - willing even to support the mother during her pregnancy just so they could have that child - but better for those children to be killed prior to being born (in your opinion), right?

Part of being pro-choice is just that: supporting choice. It is up to me what I would do if by some miracle I get pregnant (unlikely since I'm gay), but it is not up to me to tell some other woman what to do with her pregnancy.

Oh...and what about the unborn children that could actually survive outside the womb? In your opinion, it's okay to kill them too (cause they're an unwanted burden?)

No medical doctor or pregnant woman would abort a late-term fetus unless it is medically necessary to do so. All pregnancies that end in elective abortion happen in the first trimester when the fetus/embryo is almost microscopic. It's safer that way.

Never heard of alimony and child-support payments?

I meant physically. As in, people can't force you to donate a kidney against your will.

ColoradoGuy

01-16-2008, 09:02 AM

Just curious....if you're all for killing innocent unborn children ...
This is just the sort of charged language that gets the conversation nowhere. Please don't use it.

My-Immortal

01-16-2008, 09:12 AM

This is just the sort of charged language that gets the conversation nowhere. Please don't use it.

Sorry moderator. If that's the only part of this thread you found offensive...well...I won't mention it again.

Take care all -

ColoradoGuy

01-16-2008, 09:14 AM

Sorry moderator. If that's the only part of this thread you found offensive...well...I won't mention it again.

Take care all -
Thank you. (Subtext duly noted.)

MacAllister

01-16-2008, 09:21 AM

I have every confidence that Colorado Guy is fair and just, in the extreme.

Which is why I've supermodded him.

Thank you for respecting his authority.

ETA: in the interests of balance "Criminals are people. Fetuses are not" is equally quite charged language, and practically guaranteed to start a donnybrook.

blacbird

01-16-2008, 09:38 AM

Most serial killers and pedaphiles come from well-to-do families.

Without getting into the merits of your various arguments and positions, your statement above is the purest nonsense:

Charles Manson
Ted Bundy
Henry Lee Lucas
Richard Ramirez
Ottis Toole
Gary Ridgway
Dean Corll
Juan Corona
John Wayne Gacy
John Couey
Richard Allen Davis
Kenneth McDuff
Robert Hansen
Ed Gein
William Bonin
David Berkowitz
Aileen Wuornos
Edmund Emil Kemper
Pee Wee Gaskins
Leonard Lake
Charles Ng
Arthur Shawcross
Gerald Stano
Danny Rolling
Herbert Mullin
Bobby Joe Long
Joel Rifkin
Coral Eugene Watts
Carl Panzram

Do I need to continue?

caw

My-Immortal

01-16-2008, 09:54 AM

Without getting into the merits of your various arguments and positions, your statement above is the purest nonsense:

Charles Manson
Ted Bundy
Henry Lee Lucas
Richard Ramirez
Ottis Toole
Gary Ridgway
Dean Corll
Juan Corona
John Wayne Gacy
John Couey
Richard Allen Davis
Kenneth McDuff
Robert Hansen
Ed Gein
William Bonin
David Berkowitz
Aileen Wuornos
Edmund Emil Kemper
Pee Wee Gaskins
Leonard Lake
Charles Ng
Arthur Shawcross
Gerald Stano
Danny Rolling
Herbert Mullin
Bobby Joe Long
Joel Rifkin
Coral Eugene Watts
Carl Panzram

Do I need to continue?

caw

No...but can you? :)

blacbird

01-16-2008, 10:35 AM

No...but can you? :)

Yup.

caw

My-Immortal

01-16-2008, 10:40 AM

Yup.

caw

I only recognized 6-7 of the names on that first list. I think...hope...that's good. (though if I researched the names further, I'm guessing I'd recognize more of them).

Robert Toy

01-16-2008, 02:26 PM

I have every confidence that Colorado Guy is fair and just, in the extreme.

Which is why I've supermodded him.

Thank you for respecting his authority.

Did you give him the company car, unlimited expense account and red cape that come with being a Super moderator? :D

All joking aside, congrats to CG.

Tiger

01-16-2008, 11:10 PM

Had a new waver (remember them?) friend in college who insisted that new wavers had statistically higher IQs than the rest of society. Bottom line: it's really easy to attribute factoids to any group you want. It's the nature of prejudice.

Fingers

01-16-2008, 11:16 PM