PETA doesn't want kids to drink milk

[maxmordon]

Even have a series of collectible cards about it:

http://www.petakids.com/milksucker.html


I just considered something interesting to show and discuss with my fellow mates of AW

[Bartholomew]

I wonder what on Earth their agenda is, campaigning against milk. Do they have the same objections to butter, cheese, and other such milk-product?

ETA-

I think that it is despicable to attempt to brainwash children in this fashion.

[TrickyFiction]

I wonder what on Earth their agenda is, campaigning against milk. Do they have the same objections to butter, cheese, and other such milk-product?

I believe they primarily advocate a vegan lifestyle.
So, the answer to that would be yes.

[maxmordon]

Yeah, and I know is PETA... But some of these cards are downright disturbing...

[Lyra Jean]

The cards remind of Garbage Pail Kids.

[aruna]

hmmm.. and they recommend soy milk instead, which has been linked to a host of problems in children.

[beezle]

hmmm.. and they recommend soy milk instead, which has been linked to a host of problems in children.

Health problems in human children aren't their concern. Propaganda is allowed to be disingenuous.

[Bartholomew]

Soy milk?

Soybeans do not have teats.

It is soy extract, or perhaps soy water. Even soy juice. It is not soy milk.

ETA:

I've never met a vegan who was someone I wanted to model myself after. If the PETA is a primarily vegan group, this only supports my already well established notion that they don't have both oars striking water.

No offense to any vegans on the board. My experiences are limited to the people I've actually met. And the people I've met who label themselves vegan have thus far been bat-shit loco.

ETAA:

http://www.petakids.com/page/games_main.jpg

I found this image in that website. That irks me to an extent well past my normal boiling point. I think the extreme left disgusts me as much as the extreme right.

[kristie911]

PETA is definitely extreme and most of them are bat shit nuts as far as I can tell. It's actually sad because they could be a very helpful group but they've gotten so radical they mostly just freak people out.

The lies they print on the website are fairly amusing...or they would be if people didn't actually buy into their bullshit rhetoric.

[xhouseboy]

Don't listen to PETA; they're all fruit loops.

Heather McCartney's got a more sensible solution.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/20/nceleb120.xml

I'm applying for a grant to start a rat/dog farm. It's the future.

[beezle]

I'm applying for a grant to start a rat/dog farm. It's the future.

You mean a chihuahua farm?

[Bird of Prey]

Perhaps you should investigate what's being put in the kiddie's milk before being so sure it's good for him/her.

You think it's normal that an excessive amount of children are reaching puberty at age eight and nine?

When you feed a cow hormones to double its milk production, where do you think all that winds up? I don't believe the dairy industry for a minute.

[Susan Gable]

Perhaps you should investigate what's being put in the kiddie's milk before being so sure it's good for him/her.

You think it's normal that an excessive amount of children are reaching puberty at age eight and nine?

When you feed a cow hormones to double its milk production, where do you think all that winds up? I don't believe the dairy industry for a minute.

But soy also has a huge impact on hormones, so soy "milk" isn't any better.

Organic milk. :) That's what for breakfast. :)

On a PETA note, we had one write in to our local newspaper to say that our local zoo should be turned into a santuary for abandoned and abused exotic animals. No mention of what should happen to the animals already AT our zoo. No mention of where all the money will come from to build the "noncages" advocated for these new animals.



Susan G.

[Bartholomew]

Perhaps you should investigate what's being put in the kiddie's milk before being so sure it's good for him/her.

You think it's normal that an excessive amount of children are reaching puberty at age eight and nine?

When you feed a cow hormones to double its milk production, where do you think all that winds up? I don't believe the dairy industry for a minute.

I buy my milk from a place called Whole Food Grocer. The label claims that it is free of hormones--and it DOES taste different from the milk at my girlfriend's house.

Anyway, even without hormones, milk isn't the healthiest thing one could drink. But it DOES have nutritional value, just like anything else on earth that is edible. We drink milk because our ancestors did it, and our ancestors before then, all the way back to when people mostly owned, or had access to livestock in the flesh. Milk was another liquid--another thing that could be preserved through harsh winters in various forms, and it tasted different from water, which was a definite plus. The custom of drinking milk and eating milk products has been preserved, and there isn't a damn thing wrong with it.

[waylander]

Perhaps you should investigate what's being put in the kiddie's milk before being so sure it's good for him/her.

You think it's normal that an excessive amount of children are reaching puberty at age eight and nine?

When you feed a cow hormones to double its milk production, where do you think all that winds up? I don't believe the dairy industry for a minute.

I can't answer for levels of BST in milk (though I suspect they are low) however BST (the hormone that promotes milk production) is a protein and hence will be degraded by normal digestive processes and is not going to end up in your child's bloodstream.
Early onset puberty is much more related to overall nutrition levels than any possible 'hormones in milk'.
I think you need to wind your paranoia level down a bit.

[karo.ambrose]

Wow. I mean...wow.

I probably drink like 1 or 2 glasses of milk a day... and I've never suffered from raging acne, morbid obesity, ear infections, heart disease or cancer. I have a little bit of phlegm (TMI?) but that's from allergies. I imagine maybe if your entire diet consisted of milk, a few problems might arise, but I believe than most things can be good, as long as it's done in moderation.

I'm sure quite a few problems would arise if your entire diet consisted of soy milk too. I wonder how much money soy lobbyists have invested in PETA.

BTW, I loved Garbage Pail Kids when I was a kid.

[Bird of Prey]

I can't answer for levels of BST in milk (though I suspect they are low) however BST (the hormone that promotes milk production) is a protein and hence will be degraded by normal digestive processes and is not going to end up in your child's bloodstream.
Early onset puberty is much more related to overall nutrition levels than any possible 'hormones in milk'.
I think you need to wind your paranoia level down a bit.

And it think you need to read up. Here's a link for you. The rest you can do on your own.

http://www.healthynewage.com/toolweb.html

[aruna]

But it DOES have nutritional value, just like anything else on earth that is edible. We drink milk because our ancestors did it, and our ancestors before then, all the way back to when people mostly owned, or had access to livestock in the flesh. Milk was another liquid--another thing that could be preserved through harsh winters in various forms, and it tasted different from water, which was a definite plus. The custom of drinking milk and eating milk products has been preserved, and there isn't a damn thing wrong with it.

Exactly. Milk has been drunk by peoples all over the world from time immemorial. It'a a traditional food and there's nothing at all wrong with it, as long as the cows/goats/sheep/buffalo are healthy.

Wow. I mean...wow.

I probably drink like 1 or 2 glasses of milk a day... and I've never suffered from raging acne, morbid obesity, ear infections, heart disease or cancer. I have a little bit of phlegm (TMI?) but that's from allergies. I imagine maybe if your entire diet consisted of milk, a few problems might arise, but I believe than most things can be good, as long as it's done in moderation.

I'm sure quite a few problems would arise if your entire diet consisted of soy milk too. I wonder how much money soy lobbyists have invested in PETA.

BTW, I loved Garbage Pail Kids when I was a kid.

I've always drunk milk and given it to my children, and none of us are obese or have any of the problems in those cards (OK< my son does like to fart a lot but I think that comes from something else!)

Unfermented soy has definitely been linked to early-onset puberty. It's been heralded as a health food but it's anything but--there are huge companies behind the promotion of soy as being "good for you" but it's about money more than health.

[waylander]

And it think you need to read up. Here's a link for you. The rest you can do on your own.

http://www.healthynewage.com/toolweb.html


That article (which does not quote references for its assertions) does not address the specific points you raised.

I suggest you read this article which does address the point you made about early onset puberty

http://www.center4research.org/children11.html

[aruna]

Ugh! I hate sentences like this:

Menarche occurred in the girls’ eleventh year for 28% of African-American girls and 13% of white girls. At age 12, 62% of African-American girls and 35% of white girls had begun menstruating. For white girls in the US, the age of first menstruation has remained stable over the past 45 years. In African-American girls, age at menarche has declined by about 6 months in the past 20 to 30 years. The authors felt that the change in age at menarche in African-American girls may be due to their coming closer to achieving optimal nutritional and health status.

folks, African-American is just bit synonymous with "black" as it is meant to be. There are black people living in America who are not American, and Africxnas who are not black. Find a new euphemism!

Anyway, back to the topic: Birth-control Pills for Babies (Soy Infant Formula--)

According to a Swiss report, 100 mg isoflavones taken by adult women provide the estrogenic equivalent of a contraceptive pill.10 This means that 10 mg provides the estrogenic equivalent of a contraceptive pill to a baby of 6 kg. Thus, the average amount taken in by a child on soy-based formula provides the estrogenic equivalent of at least 4 birth control pills. Because babies are more vulnerable than adults to the effects of dietary estrogens, the effects could actually be much greater than that of 4 birth control pills. Hence the statement, "Babies on soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least 5 birth control pills per day."

[whistlelock]

the Pen & Teller Bullsh!t episode on PETA was awesome. It's on youtube if you don't feel like coughing up for a rental.

[billythrilly7th]

the Pen & Teller Bullsh!t episode on PETA was awesome. It's on youtube if you don't feel like coughing up for a rental.

They also have a great episode on the ridiculousness of most recycling.

Don't know if it's on youT.

[Bartholomew]

Ugh! I hate sentences like this:


folks, African-American is just bit synonymous with "black" as it is meant to be. There are black people living in America who are not American, and Africxnas who are not black. Find a new euphemism!

Anyway, back to the topic: Birth-control Pills for Babies (http://Soy%20Infant%20Formula--)

I love how they try to be PC and us African-American, and then follow up immediately by using a short-hand form for "Those of European or Russian Descent." (Not white. Never white!)

That's like mixing your curse levels, you know? It's like seeing a sentence like: "Well, golly, she's just a cosh darned cunt."

[clintl]

Ugh! I hate sentences like this:


folks, African-American is just bit synonymous with "black" as it is meant to be. There are black people living in America who are not American, and Africxnas who are not black. Find a new euphemism!

Anyway, back to the topic: Birth-control Pills for Babies (http://Soy%20Infant%20Formula--)

I would be willing to bet that if you did a study of all people living in America of African dissent that "African-American" would be a more accurate descriptor than "black."

[scarletpeaches]

I'm reading this thread while munching on a bowl of cornflakes drenched in milk fresh from the cow's teats.

[benbradley]

Even have a series of collectible cards about it:
This might push the definition of "collectible," but that's a discussion for another thread...
http://www.petakids.com/milksucker.html (http://www.petakids.com/milksucker.html)
My first thought at seeing the domain name pedakids.com is wow, that's a lot of kids!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petabyte
Presuming one out of six or seven people on Earth is a child, there is only one gigakid on Earth. Imagine a million times that many, and how many cows would we need to keep them drinking milk...
...
On a PETA note, we had one write in to our local newspaper to say that our local zoo should be turned into a santuary for abandoned and abused exotic animals. No mention of what should happen to the animals already AT our zoo. No mention of where all the money will come from to build the "noncages" advocated for these new animals.
That's yet another topic, where does the money come from... "but think of the children animals!"
And it think you need to read up. Here's a link for you. The rest you can do on your own.

http://www.healthynewage.com/toolweb.html
Just cringing at a domain name with the words "New Age" in it. No doubt that's chock full of unbiased, "fair and balanced" (one way or another!) articles...
Okay, so reading the article:
However, Milk is big business and continues to be a major part of our diets. We have constantly been told if we want to grow to be healthy and strong, with strong calcium rich bones, then a glass of milk - every day is the answer. This is a result of advertising and media campaigns that are driven by businesses such as corporate farmers, milk producers, co-operatives and associations. They forgot GOVERNMENT. Certainly in the USA all these entities lobby for and usually get favorable treatment from Congress.

OTOH, I suspect those who wrote this see Government as part of the solution rather than part of the problem. But yet again, that's for yet another thread in yet another forum. (getting sick of me yet? No? Keep reading...)

The only milk that will actually do this for us is breast milk, not cow's milk; and we stop drinking breast milk as infants, Looks like the author didn't see the Dr. Phil show with the mother who couldn't say "no" to her eight-year-old daughter...

(NOW are you sick of me?:D)

And finally:
The contents of this article are courtesy of : GHS Health Supplements.
Wow, honesty in advertising! That's unusual on Internet websites!
That article (which does not quote references for its assertions) does not address the specific points you raised.

I suggest you read this article which does address the point you made about early onset puberty

http://www.center4research.org/children11.html
And this domain has a numeric in it! I'm guessing they wanted centerforresearch.org but someone already had it (not even bothering to do a whois to see which domain was registered first).

Years ago the only domains I saw with digits in them were advertised by spammers. Some people have no shame...
the Pen & Teller Bullsh!t episode on PETA was awesome. It's on youtube if you don't feel like coughing up for a rental.
That show is one of the few reasons I've ever wanted cable TV, but I've never wanted it bad enough to actually get it. Fortunately this and some other good TV (and huge volumes of bad TV, petabytes worth) are available on the Internet nowadays.

[aruna]

I would be willing to bet that if you did a study of all people living in America of African dissent that "African-American" would be a more accurate descriptor than "black."

Not sure what you mean (my fault, not yours) but the term "African-American" is a bit of a pet peeve for me. Sorry.

[Jersey Chick]

Well, I just read in the newspaper that there is no link between milk and excess mucus. (which I always wondered about anyway). PETA started out with the right idea, but they've gone waaaaay out beyond left field. I actually think they've left the stadium and are lost somewhere on the Turnpike.

I'm not a big milk drinker - but I do try to have at least a glass a day. I was never obese, never had skin problems, nor do I have excess phlegm (ick!). Neither do my kids.

These people are loons who try to use shock and awe and fear to shove their agenda down everyone's throat. Let them drink the soy crap. I want real moo juice. :D

[Tony_LaRocca]

I love milk but it does weird me out that I'm drinking something that came from the insides of another animal if I think about it too much. It's like honey. I love it, as long as I don't think, "this comes from the insides of bugs" I just don't think about it.

[aliajohnson]

Gas, pimples, excess phlegm and fat?! Come on. Wisconsin has more dairy farms than any other state, and you're not going to find a higher number of gassy, hacking, pimply and overweight people there than somewhere else.


I too grew up drinking A LOT of milk as a kid (daughter of cheeseheads) and I have no recollection of digestive or respiratory problems. I was also ballet dancer skinny and had really nice skin. Buck teeth--but nice skin.:D

[Jersey Chick]

Ahhh. everyone knows Wisconsin's where all the fat people go! ;)

Just kidding - PETA's nuts. Almost certifiably so.

[aliajohnson]

Just kidding - PETA's nuts. Almost certifiably so.

Definitely so by the looks of that site. Yeesh.

Bird of Prey--
I don't believe the dairy industry for a minute.


Bird of Prey--while I have a real problem with the "mega farms" found in the west for a variety of reasons, I have to point out that most dairy farms are family owned and operated. They'd be genuinely surprised if you accused them of trying to hide something.

If you showed up at the door to my aunt and uncle's modest three bedroom farmhouse and asked for a tour of their "mid-sized" dairy operation, they'd be a little baffled, and then (once they figured out you weren't trying to sell them something) genuinely pleased to show you around and answer every question you had. There's a lot of pride in those old family farms.

Honestly--they're not greedy folk looking to make a pile of cash at the expense of the rest of us. He's just a farmer, and she's just a nurse. That's it.


And finally (okay, so this is a personal topic for me)
Bartholomew
I buy my milk from a place called Whole Food Grocer. The label claims that it is free of hormones--and it DOES taste different from the milk at my girlfriend's house.

I like that you go the Whole Foods route (wish there was one here), but even organic isn't so hot if it's being driven across half the country from a mega-farm--and yep, they do organic now too. If it's something you're into, then look for local if you can get it. Just an idea.

Okay--end of responses. :)

[Jersey Chick]

There's a mid-sized dairy farm right here - it supplies the milk to all local grocers. Their cow is famous (she's on some of the packages) - but her name escapes me.

[Monkey]

My family drinks over a gallon of organic milk a day. Often, we'll drink two gallons in a day. Sometimes more, depending on the menu and if my husband and oldest son have the day off school.

I'm 5'1 and weigh in right at 100 pounds. No acne, phlem, or excessive farting. Actually, I'm one of the healthiest people I know.

My teenage son rarely has acne. He's 6'3 and 200 pounds of solid muscle. He smells of Axe deodorant.

My husband is 6'8 and 210 pounds. Very healthy, no acne or farting, and no phlem since he started going in for acupuncture a couple of years ago.

My youngest son is 3 and 30 pounds. We only drink whole milk, and I also stuff him full of full-fat yogurt and cheese, red meat, and anything else he'll eat (other than junk food). I hope that we find something to help him bulk up! It's just not in his genes to be anything but slim, I guess. :)

Then there's my daughter. Having just reached one year of age, breast milk is still her primary nutrition, though she munches and sips right along with the rest of us (we have four meals a day). She's the most chunky out of all of us at 1 year and 23 pounds. No acne, farting, or phlem, though.



PETA is nuts. I'm all for taking care of the animals, and yeah, some of those mega-farms are terrible for the cows. But what does PETA think will happen to cows if everyone stops drinking milk? They aren't exactly house pets.

They had an ad campaign a while back aimed at college-age kids. They put up billboards near college campuses that read, "Got Beer?" and their website tried to prove that alcohol was better for you than milk. Well, MADD got M-A-D, and before long, PETA dropped the campaign. I guess this is their way of replacing it.

Sick.

[beezle]

There's a mid-sized dairy farm right here - it supplies the milk to all local grocers. Their cow is famous (she's on some of the packages) - but her name escapes me.

Daisy? Bessy? Hamburger? Mary Moo?

[Jersey Chick]

Hey! One of my dearest childhood pets was a cow - we called her Mooey and she slept at the foot of my bed every night...

Okay, I made that up.

If PETA had their way, the world would be even more of a disaster than it already is. They lost all credibility to me when they picketed CBS because a rat was killed in the first season of Survivor. A total WTF if there ever was one. Who gets upset over a rat getting killed? I am an animal person and even I was like - okay, so what? It's a rat.

[Jersey Chick]

Daisy? Bessy? Hamburger? Mary Moo?

Okay - I tried to find it, but this was the best I can do - I'm tellin' ya, these cows are goin' places! :D

http://www.norzhillfarm.com/index.php?page=about

[Christine N.]

I loves me some milk.

Used ta drink it fresh from the cow when I was little. Yummy. Now I get the stuff from the local dairy farm (local chain of convenience stores; only about a dozen all told) and it's lowfat.

No lactose intolerance from me!

I like goat's milk cheese too.

[aliajohnson]

I loves me some milk.

Used ta drink it fresh from the cow when I was little. Yummy.

Yummy is right. I mostly like my dairy in other products these days (coffee, ice cream, cheese, etc). But I'll never turn down a glass of really fresh milk. Chilled for a bit is best, though, imo. Delicious.

[kristie911]

Chilled for a bit is best, though, imo. Delicious.

All milk is better super cold. I remember when I was a kid, we'd go camping and the milk would be kept in the cooler. The ice made it way colder than a fridge does. It was the best! We called it "vacation milk" and there was nothing better.

My son drinks milk, I drink milk. We don't plan on stopping any time soon. I will not be drinking soy milk. Ick.

[Perks]

The campaign is more than a little disturbing, but in all honesty, I find it a bit weird that humans drink the milk of other animals. I'm guilty, of course. And I'm not suggesting that anyone promote milking human mothers to supplement the Oreo Syndicate, it's just, from an objective point of view, an odd thing to do, unduplicated in the rest of the animal kingdom.

I do love butter, cheese, ice cream and all that. I am a very conflicted person.

[SC Harrison]

Used ta drink it fresh from the cow when I was little.

Me too, but the chronic neck pain made it almost not worth the effort. Then I noticed I had hands with opposable thumbs, and I said, "Mooreka!" :)

[clintl]

Not sure what you mean (my fault, not yours) but the term "African-American" is a bit of a pet peeve for me. Sorry.

What I mean is there are a lot of relatively light-skinned "blacks" in America, but they pretty much all have some African ancestry. In this case, the so-called euphemism is actually a more accurate description.

[InfinityGoddess]

Well, I just read in the newspaper that there is no link between milk and excess mucus. (which I always wondered about anyway). PETA started out with the right idea, but they've gone waaaaay out beyond left field. I actually think they've left the stadium and are lost somewhere on the Turnpike.



They've been far beyond left field for some time now. Anyone remember when they compared the slaughter of chickens to the Holocaust?

[DonnaDuck]

Nothing beats getting a child to stop doing something healthy than scaring the ever-loving shit out of them. What's next? Cyanide-covered broccoli?

The thing is, there are certain, non-psycho sections of PETA that do root for good things like working to stop dog fighting syndicates and spaying and neutering animals and the like but when they do crap like this, it kind of makes my brain ooze. Soy is not a cure-all for everything. Actually, if not done right, soy tastes like complete crap. Never tried soy milk, never will. I like the real stuff, thanks. 2% though. I don't like the taste of whole milk or skim. I'll go 1% but that's it. I would buy local milk but the one place that is local doesn't have any indication that they don't have hormones in them. I don't buy organic (because the price is ridiculous) but I buy with that lovely little stamp of approval that says that the milk is hormone free.

I've tried soy yogurt. That just didn't taste right. I've tried soy ice cream and that depends on the brand. Rainbow has soy cream and it's better than ice cream. You wouldn't even know the difference if you tried it. So Delicious tastes like lightly flavored ice. It just doesn't taste right. I've had chocolate covered soy nuts but I have to be in the mood for those. The thing is, someone like me that has a ridiculous amount of food allergies to nuts, fruits and vegetables, I'd starve to death if I went vegan.

And it's a lot easier to buy local when you're not in an area where the land is unusable 8 months out of the year. Those of us in the Northeast have no other means than to buy produce and the like that's shipped in. We certainly can't harvest it ourselves from under the snow and frozen ground that we have from October to into April.

It's interesting because PETA allowed Ditta Von Teese (Marylin Manson's ex) to be a spokesperson for their spay/neuter campaign. She's an adamant fur-wearer. Loves it. Their response? Because she wasn't promoting something like their anti-fur campaign or a vegan lifestyle, it's ok to use her for this section of their business because this is the only thing she's promoting. Personally, I find that a touch hypocritical. I can understand the reasoning but when you think PETA, you don't think of any of their campaigners for anything wearing anything derived from an animal.

Give me my milk. And by the way, milk DOES cause excessive phlegm. It sticks int he back of your throat. Kind of icky, like post nasal drip. I wouldn't call it a health hazard moreso than an annoyance. I used to sing and it was one of the liquids we were banned from drinking before a performance because it would sodden your voice. That and soda because, you know, burping in the middle of a solo was never all that classy.

[Perks]

I kinda have to agree with their campaign against the fois-gras industry. When they aren't raving that we should all be vegan, I'd like to think they could do some good towards the humane treatment of the animals raised for food.

I don't like the idea of being a vegetarian, but I can't stand the cruelty that is condoned in the business.

[InfinityGoddess]

I kinda have to agree with their campaign against the fois-gras industry. When they aren't raving that we should all be vegan, I'd like to think they could do some good towards the humane treatment of the animals raised for food.

I don't like the idea of being a vegetarian, but I can't stand the cruelty that is condoned in the business.

I would agree with you. I think that these factory farms should treat their animals better as well. However, I also think that PETA is not the best spokespeople for their welfare. Mostly because they're hypocrites and use shock tactics to scare people into action.

[Perks]

I would agree with you. I think that these factory farms should treat their animals better as well. However, I also think that PETA is not the best spokespeople for their welfare. Mostly because they're hypocrites and use shock tactics to scare people into action.Yeah, I agree. Are there any more reasonable organizations that work for that? They need better spokespeople if they exist. Squeaky wheels and all...

[InfinityGoddess]

Yeah, I agree. Are there any more reasonable organizations that work for that? They need better spokespeople if they exist. Squeaky wheels and all...

There is the Humane Society and the ASPCA. And for wild animals, there is The Defenders of Wildlife. :) All are much more reasonable when it comes to the welfare of animals.

[scarletpeaches]

I don't get the 'humane treatment of animals raised for food' at all.

You're gonna be killing and eating them anyway; who gives a shit how they're treated when they're alive? If letting them sleep in four-poster chicken coops and giving them counselling makes them more succulent when they eventually end up in my lunchtime sammich, I'm all for it, but I can't see that having any effect on how juicy them birds taste when I'm hungry.

[Perks]

I don't get the 'humane treatment of animals raised for food' at all.

You're gonna be killing and eating them anyway; who gives a shit how they're treated when they're alive? If letting them sleep in four-poster chicken coops and giving them counselling makes them more succulent when they eventually end up in my lunchtime sammich, I'm all for it, but I can't see that having any effect on how juicy them birds taste when I'm hungry.You're full of piss today, aren't you Scarlet?

You may not care, but I've done a little reading up on the subject and I do. Animals that are born to die without a decently clean or comfortable moment in the short entirety of their lives makes me very sad. They are living creatures, for however short that life is.

I'm not advocating any touchy-feely psychobabble. Just decency.

[scarletpeaches]

It just doesn't make sense to me. If people care that much, why aren't they vegetarians?

For the record, I was for about two years, then fell down before a pot of corned beef hash.

And yes, now I'm a meat-eater again, I would be prepared to slaughter an animal before eating it.

[Perks]

It just doesn't make sense to me. If people care that much, why aren't they vegetarians?

For the record, I was for about two years, then fell down before a pot of corned beef hash.

And yes, now I'm a meat-eater again, I would be prepared to slaughter an animal before eating it.Well, that's fair considering I don't think your stance makes any sense either.

I have no qualms about eating animals. I would also slaughter my own meat if I couldn't afford to have anyone do it for me.

What I wouldn't do is cram it into a cage where it couldn't so much as turn around and let it marinate in its own urine and feces, pumping it full of chemicals, over-breeding it unto death in cramped, dirty, suffocating boxes, never allowing it to see the light of day or breathe an uncontaminated breath.

[Jersey Chick]

The ASPCA is probably my favorite of them all. They focus on education as opposed to shock tactics. I used to watch Animal Precinct all the time - it's amazing what people are capable of. Amazing in that horrible way.

I think PETA started out with the best of intentions, then became drunk with power when they started getting a real following.

[DonnaDuck]

What I wouldn't do is cram it into a cage where it couldn't so much as turn around and let it marinate in its own urine and feces, pumping it full of chemicals, over-breeding it unto death in cramped, dirty, suffocating boxes, never allowing it to see the light of day or breathe an uncontaminated breath.

Not only that but, like people, animals emit stress hormones when they're under duress. The procedure alone used to slaughter them is stressing enough, let alone the conditions in which they live. You slaughter an animal that has stress hormones pumping through it, those hormones are still there when the meat lands on the shelves. It's not exactly healthy meat that you're eating. These mass farmers have yet to come up with a way to humanely kill the animals without compromising the state of it's body in any way shape or form on such a huge level that it needs to be on. A shot to the heat, putting it to sleep, all humane but it compromises the meat.

While slaughter chickens are being raised they're kept X amount to a pen. Because they're that close, they're debeaked in order to prevent them from pecking each other to death. Some lose so much of their beak that they starve to death. Add on to the fact that farmers pump so much estrogen and other growth hormones into chicken in order to get plump breasts that they have to be slaughtered two weeks prior to what they would normally be (14 weeks as opposed to 16, I think) otherwise they'll go into congestive heart failure, I'd say their conditions are sub par, at best.

Yeah, my dad's wife does waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much reading for her own good and then relays it to the children. We call her the destroyer of dreams. Now when I look at a chicken breast that isn't organic, I actually gag. A chicken breast is NOT supposed to be that thick.

[Jersey Chick]

I hate those %^!$%^ thick chicken breasts... they never cook all the way through.

Organic's what I prefer - but I can't always get it....

[maxmordon]

wow, never though this thread would reach so far in so little time

[ChunkyC]

I don't get the 'humane treatment of animals raised for food' at all.

You're gonna be killing and eating them anyway; who gives a shit how they're treated when they're alive? If letting them sleep in four-poster chicken coops and giving them counselling makes them more succulent when they eventually end up in my lunchtime sammich, I'm all for it, but I can't see that having any effect on how juicy them birds taste when I'm hungry.
For me it's simply this: why be cruel, even to an animal destined to be our food? That makes no sense.

[Jersey Chick]

wow, never though this thread would reach so far in so little time

It's a little frightening, eh? At least it hasn't derailed too badly yet. But it's still early...

[Perks]

Not only that but, like people, animals emit stress hormones when they're under duress. The procedure alone used to slaughter them is stressing enough, let alone the conditions in which they live. You slaughter an animal that has stress hormones pumping through it, those hormones are still there when the meat lands on the shelves. It's not exactly healthy meat that you're eating. Yeah, I've read that and it makes a certain amount of sense.

It's funny, I don't like being around animals all that much. I was raised in a city and without pets, so I generally prefer the fauna at a distance or on my plate. But just the same, I don't understand why you can confine a calf in stocks to keep it tender when you'd be jailed for animal cruelty if you did it to a dog.

And speaking of, I also think Brigette Bardot's campaign against the consumption of cats and dogs in some parts of the world is ridiculous. If you're going to eat one animal, might as well eat them all and when in Rome and all that - just as long as they're treated decently while they're alive.

[benbradley]

...
PETA is nuts. ...
They had an ad campaign a while back aimed at college-age kids. They put up billboards near college campuses that read, "Got Beer?" and their website tried to prove that alcohol was better for you than milk. Well, MADD got M-A-D, and before long, PETA dropped the campaign.
That jibes with what I've heard about MADD, they don't just want to stop drunk driving, they're (or perhaps became since they started) a temperance organization: they want to stop drinking.

[Opty]

Perhaps, but PETA's egregiously irresponsible (not to mention downright mendacious) claims that beer is better for you (i.e. more nutritious) than milk is utter bullshit that was aimed at a demographic plagued by an epidemic of binge-drinking.

They might as well have been telling a bunch of lung cancer patients that cigarrettes are better for them than orange juice.

[maxmordon]

.

They might as well have been telling a bunch of lung cancer patients that cigarrettes are better for them than orange juice.

Actually, L. Ron Hubbard made that statement (according to him, cigarettes has this substance called nicotine that transforms into Vitamin D and expels the cancer out of the body trough urine)

But thinking who is crazier between Scientology and PETA...

[clintl]

Are we sure L. Ron wasn't smoking a different kind of cigarette at the time?

[My-Immortal]

I wonder if anyone will ever start PETV...People for the Ethical Treatment of Vegetation. I mean, every week (usually) most of us go out in the summer and behead every blade of grass in our yards. We cut the limbs off of trees and bushes, we cut fresh flowers simply for our own olfactory delights...and don't get me started on how we rape fruit trees by pulling and yanking off their wares. When it comes to vegetables, we eat what grows above the ground sometimes, other times it's what's below...

Animals in zoos? That's nothing. There are more gardens in this country than zoos! All those vegetables and flowers grown in cramped tight little rows and harvested just for food....and while all that poor, defenseless vegetation is waiting to be eaten....we kill all the other vegetation that creeps in for a peek. Die weeds die!

And then we spray all sorts of chemicals on vegetation - some to change their colors, others to kill....it's horrible how we treat vegetation....

Hell, we abuse vegetation simply to create alcoholic beverages for our drinking pleasure! I don't know of anyone that got drunk off milk!

Go ahead vegans...enjoy your feast you heartless killers....at least the animals we meat-eaters enjoy actually have the ability to escape us....
I don't think you can say the same about your prey, can you?

:)

[BenPanced]

Hell, I'm a member of PETA:

People for the
Eating of
Tasty
Animals!

If Ghod hadn't intended for us to eat cows, S/he would have made them run faster! (Forgot where I got the quote from, but it's paraphrased for your safety!)

And they've found a link between PETA and ALF, the Animal Liberation Front, the nutjobs who break into research labs and mink farms to release the animals into the wild. Both groups have long denied any association but it turns out ALF gets tons of cash from PETA.

[Opty]

And they've found a link between PETA and ALF...

http://dwave.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/alf-cat.jpg

[Joe270]

animals emit stress hormones when they're under duress. The procedure alone used to slaughter them is stressing enough, let alone the conditions in which they live. You slaughter an animal that has stress hormones pumping through it, those hormones are still there when the meat lands on the shelves. It's not exactly healthy meat that you're eating.

This is really ignorant garbage. The hormones are metastasized by the cells. It's not like we get doses of epinephrine and norepinephrine through cooked meat, or even raw meat.

This is a near impossibility, although there could be tiny, tiny amount possibly detected by the most advanced mass-spectrometer instruments.

You are much more adversely affected by the car exhausts you breathe walking from your car into the grocery store.

Find something else to worry about, because this won't hurt you.

[aruna]

What I mean is there are a lot of relatively light-skinned "blacks" in America, but they pretty much all have some African ancestry. In this case, the so-called euphemism is actually a more accurate description.


Oh, OK, I get you. Actually, there was a time when even if you had a non-visible drop of "black" blood in you you'd call yourself black out of solidarity.
I just object to people using a nationality (American) as if it had something to do with their race or skin colour. It gets ridiculous when you see people like Naomi Campbell being called African-American (shes British! But I once read that somewhere) or once, in a movie set in Africa, the African actor being referred to as African-American.

[aruna]

And speaking of, I also think Brigette Bardot's campaign against the consumption of cats and dogs in some parts of the world is ridiculous. If you're going to eat one animal, might as well eat them all and when in Rome and all that - just as long as they're treated decently while they're alive.


She does that? Barmy!
I used to be the health food freak in our family hut now it's my daughter. She won't touch milk or dairy products that aren't organic. So our shopping bills just went up a few notches.

I am vegetarian, but it has more to do with the fact that the sight of raw meat just grosses me out, more so the thought of eating it. When non-vegetarians ask me to explain why I don't eat meat I find they understand best when I compare it with the kind of disgust they might experience at, for example, the thought of eating cat or dog meat.

[maxmordon]

I think what animal you eat and what you don't is a cultural matter. Like cows in India, dogs is some Asian cultures and here in my country we eat capybaras:

http://www.arconet.es/users/marta/Capibara1.jpg

[aruna]

Yep, in Guyana we call that labba, or agouti!

[Joe270]

I think what animal you eat and what you don't is a cultural matter. Like cows in India, dogs is some Asian cultures and here in my country we eat capybaras:


These are called nutrarats in Louisianna and east Texas. Some idiot imported them back in the late 1800s and now they can't get rid of 'em.

[maxmordon]

These are called nutrarats in Louisianna and east Texas. Some idiot imported them back in the late 1800s and now they can't get rid of 'em.

Why don't you eat it? or have one as a pet! my cousin has one as a pet. Besides is the only warm-blood animal allowed to eat during Lent. The Conquistadors told to the church that it was some kind of furry frog just to eat it

[maxmordon]

Yep, in Guyana we call that labba, or agouti!

here we call it Chigüire.

[Bartholomew]

I don't get the 'humane treatment of animals raised for food' at all.

You're gonna be killing and eating them anyway; who gives a shit how they're treated when they're alive? If letting them sleep in four-poster chicken coops and giving them counselling makes them more succulent when they eventually end up in my lunchtime sammich, I'm all for it, but I can't see that having any effect on how juicy them birds taste when I'm hungry.

Freerange chicken tastes better.

[SC Harrison]

These are called nutrarats in Louisianna and east Texas. Some idiot imported them back in the late 1800s and now they can't get rid of 'em.

I think the proper name is "nutria", but they are from the rhodent family.

[InfinityGoddess]

Freerange chicken tastes better.

Free range chicken also doesn't have the antibiotics and hormonal junk that they pump factory farm chickens with. That's what makes them leaner and tastier.

[Joe270]

I think the proper name is "nutria", but they are from the rhodent family.


Yeah, it's something like that. The cajuns eat 'em. I guess you put enough Tabasco on about anything and you could eat it.

[aruna]

In guyana they also eat the iguana. It looks like a big lizard. It is suposed to be delicious, and tastes like chicken. I wouldn't know, never having eaten it. But it's surely healthier as those hormone-packed carcasses in the supermarket.

Iguana (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Iguana_iguana.jpg)

[My-Immortal]

When someone else wants to pay for my entire food bill every month, I'll listen to what I 'should' or 'shouldn't' eat based on if it moos or oinks or clucks or simply grows out of the ground or on a tree...

But since no one is doing that - I'll eat what I buy and leave it at that.

[JimmyB27]

I don't get the 'humane treatment of animals raised for food' at all.

You're gonna be killing and eating them anyway; who gives a shit how they're treated when they're alive? If letting them sleep in four-poster chicken coops and giving them counselling makes them more succulent when they eventually end up in my lunchtime sammich, I'm all for it, but I can't see that having any effect on how juicy them birds taste when I'm hungry.
You're going to die one day anyway, who gives a shit how you're treated while you're alive?

[ATP]

I'm reading this thread while munching on a bowl of cornflakes drenched in milk fresh from the cow's teats.

Really...? Scots don't eat haggis for breakfast anymore?;)
(ps. my stepgrandfather was Scottish)

[davids]

I have only one question-Oatmeal raisen cookies and soy milk? One answer-barf! While eating said cookies'n milk and wearing thick fur ripped off of the back of some living beast I do not give a crap about!

[scarletpeaches]

You're going to die one day anyway, who gives a shit how you're treated while you're alive?

Uh, no...see, I'm not the one being raised for the sole purpose of being someone's dinner.

[JimmyB27]

Uh, no...see, I'm not the one being raised for the sole purpose of being someone's dinner.
That makes a difference?
They're still living creatures, they still feel pain and discomfort. Why put them through that if you don't have to?

[scarletpeaches]

For fun.
...
...
...
...
...
And if you don't want them to feel pain and discomfort, why are you eating them?

[JimmyB27]

For fun.
...
...
...
...
...
And if you don't want them to feel pain and discomfort, why are you eating them?
Because they're tasty. They're usually a bit beyond feeling any pain by the time they reach my dinner plate.

[Perks]

Just agree with her so she'll stop talking rubbish. Sometimes, the devil's advocate is enlightening. But not always.

[C.bronco]

That's just bizarre; their logic is seriously flawed.
I breastfed my son, and I found it neither cruel nor unusual. I'm sure that 99% of the cows out there would agree with me.

[I]disclaimer: C.bronco is not a cow.

[scarletpeaches]

Because they're tasty. They're usually a bit beyond feeling any pain by the time they reach my dinner plate.

Try them raw. Much fresher.

[InfinityGoddess]

That's just bizarre; their logic is seriously flawed.
I breastfed my son, and I found it neither cruel nor unusual. I'm sure that 99% of the cows out there would agree with me.

[I]disclaimer: C.bronco is not a cow.

Yeah, apparently no one told the folks at PETA that cows are mammals and that milking them is no different than if it were a calf suckling on the teats.

I can see it totally if they were just going with the "health" angle (hormones, antibiotics, other chemicals, fat, etc). But that's just weak.

[Sarita]

animals emit stress hormones when they're under duress. The procedure alone used to slaughter them is stressing enough, let alone the conditions in which they live. You slaughter an animal that has stress hormones pumping through it, those hormones are still there when the meat lands on the shelves. It's not exactly healthy meat that you're eating. This is really ignorant garbage. The hormones are metastasized by the cells. It's not like we get doses of epinephrine and norepinephrine through cooked meat, or even raw meat.

This is a near impossibility, although there could be tiny, tiny amount possibly detected by the most advanced mass-spectrometer instruments.

You are much more adversely affected by the car exhausts you breathe walking from your car into the grocery store.

Find something else to worry about, because this won't hurt you.
I don't think the point is that it "will hurt you," but that the meat tastes better when it's not subject to industrial levels of meat processing stress. You can't tell me that there's no difference between the gigantic chicken you buy at Sam's Club and one that you raise yourself to eat (or buy at a local farm.) And as far as cost goes, eating organic/locally raised food is actually cheaper for us. This summer we decided to give it a shot and we found that we eat more vegetables, which tend to be cheaper than meat anyway. We feel healthier. But we've always been very conscious about what we eat and are rather active folks anyway. I would never tell someone they had to eat like I do, but if people ask, I'm more than happy to recommend my eating habits.

And speaking about milk: We have a local dairy that only supplies locally. It's delicious. I really don't like milk, never have. But Finn drinks about a gallon of whole milk a week. And their cheese is great!

[Perks]

Besides, hormones don't metastasize. Cancer does. Stress hormones metabolize, I suppose, but they also do a lot of other things. I don't know how Joe is particularly qualified to label that caution as 'ignorant garbage'.

[Tiger]

What I mean is there are a lot of relatively light-skinned "blacks" in America, but they pretty much all have some African ancestry. In this case, the so-called euphemism is actually a more accurate description.

Maybe... What about Jamaicans, Nigerians, African Canadians, etc., living in the U.S. If I weren't American, I'd resent someone calling me an Asian American.

Just saying.

[Tiger]

Most of the world cannot digest lactose as adults. It hits my stomach like a tab of alka seltzer.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm going to have a big pie for dinner.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/385000/images/_387517_cowpie300.jpg
And I'll wash it down with a gallon of milk!

[Monkey]

Having raised and slaughtered farm animals, I feel strongly that animals raised for food should nonetheless be treated with decency while they are alive.

It's true that eggs, meat, and milk from animals that free range and spend time in the sun are more nutritious than those from animals that do not. Vegetables grown by organic methods show a similar bump in nutrition. (MSN had an article on this recently...I'd look it up, but it's nearly midnight here and I'm tired.) Organic methods create less polution and kill off less of the beneficial insects.

Honestly, though, my reason for wanting the animals to be treated humanely is simply that they are living, feeling beings. I've grown quite close to some of the animals that I've eventually had to slaughter. I give them what I want for myself: as good a life as possible, followed by a death so quick that they never see it coming and don't have time to feel.

Honestly, the cows, chickens, peacocks, goats, and assorted critters on my in-law's farm have life pretty good. They are treated like pets, loved and cared for, and nothing is ever asked from them in return until BAM--lights out--and it's over. No suffering. And later, good eatin' for everyone else. :D

I see absolutely no reason why the fact that they will eventually be eaten should make me ignore their suffering and pain while they are alive. In fact, on a spiritual level, I feel that the very fact that they are going to die to provide me and mine with nourishment means that I owe them a little respect. But that's just me.