[Publisher] Lulu.com

[BarryDavis]

Can anyone tell me about this company -- good or bad?

www.lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com)

[capitalistwriter]

I just checked the website and took a look at the preview available for a couple of their books. The quality of the writing that I saw was quite low--grammar errors, poor spelling, incorrect punctuation, etc.

I wouldn't want my book associated with the ones I saw on their website.

[BarryDavis]

Capitalistwriter,
Wouldn't the same be true for the titles at iUniverse, PublishAmerica, etc??

I guess what I'm asking concerning LuLu has more to do with the quality of production, order fulfillment, listing on online booksellers, etc?

Thanks,
Barry

[Thekherham]

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but what is your opinion of lulu.com.? Is it something worthwhile, or should I beware?

[James D Macdonald]

Depends on what you want to do.

If you want a couple of copies of your book in printed form, that's one thing. If you're planning to get your book into stores for general sale, that's something else.

[mammamaia]

just another pod... go this route, if you really want to, but don't think it'll make you a 'published' writer, 'cause it won't...

[tfdswift]

Has anyone ever heard about lulu?

www.lulu.com

I was drawn in by the website but I am such a naive person and trusting soul. Would somebody please tell me if this is legitimate? If it is not, would somebody please slap some sense into me?!?!?!?:smack

An ever-faithful student.... Tammy

[DaveKuzminski]

So far, I do not have any complaints about Lulu at P&E. Based on initial appearances and comments I have read here and elsewhere, Lulu appears to be honest in what it has to offer.

Regardless, it's young and it's a bit early for any true horror stories to have emerged, so I can only state that the jury is still out, though I hope it turns out to be good for writers as there are some writing needs that Lulu might suitably fulfill.

[Greenwolf103]

There's one person here on the board who had a poetry book published through lulu. I don't know if he's still around but I can link you to where he talks about lulu, if you'd like. (I was also a part of that discussion.)

[tfdswift]

I would like to know all I can. How do I get the link? This is the only message board I know of.

~~Tammy

[Greenwolf103]

Hi, Tammy,

Sorry it took me a while to respond. Got a little distracted.

Here's the link:

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=1&stop=20 (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm14.showMessageRange?topicID=89.to pic&start=1&stop=20)

There's more on lulu.com on Page 2.

Good luck!

--Dawn

[tfdswift]

Dawn,

I went to that sight and tried to email the guy in person and the email is no longer any good. So I still don't really know anything....:shrug

Does anybody else know anything else about Lulu?

~~Tammy

[Greenwolf103]

Tammy,

Which "guy" do you mean? The one who made the offer? If so, I'd forget about that. He charged WAAAAY too much for a poor-quality book. I hate to say anything bad about people, but the gist of it is that I was given a fee of $1200 for a small book with a black&white cover. With that kind of money, I should get a better presentation...

Lulu is looking pretty good to me so far. I haven't seen complaints about them but when I saw them listed in a magazine article as a novelty publisher, I started having second thoughts. I dunno yet.

Ask around and see what your options are. My sister is an artist and she can do a pretty darn good book cover for you, if you have the means of getting printing. Her rates are very fair, too.

Send me an e-mail, if you'd like: DMCWriter@hotmail.com

Good luck! :)

--Dawn

[maestrowork]

It seems like Lulu is pretty up and up and honest about what they are and what they are not. They're basically a self-publish POD offering but without the basic trap (no contracts, no upfront fees, etc.). The unit cost is high, even with the volume discount, but you set your own royalties and they pay you, I believe, quarterly. On top of the print cost they charge you a service charge. So let's say your basic cost per book is $8, and you want $8 royal, the price of your book would be about $18? A little steep for a paperback, but still not too bad.

There are other services if you don't supply your printer-ready covers and ms. You can use their stock covers or design your own. You can let them typeset your ms (follow their ms guidelines) or typeset yourself and give them a PDF.

The ISBN and ISBN PLUS programs sound reasonable. With ISBN PLUS they put your in Ingram or some other distribution databases. And your book is automatically for sale on their website.

I think Lulu is a viable solution. But I think they're still considered vanity since just about anyone can print and sell their books without any quality control. It's good for someone who wants to sell a few hundreds of their book. It's easier than having to completely do it yourself (e.g. printing it at Lightning Source and registering your own ISBN, etc.) So for someone who knows nothing about self-publishing it's a viable solution, but there's probably still going to be a stigma of "vanity."


I've used them to do a mock copy of a book -- it's not for sale to the public... a better choice than Kinkos and CafePress, in my opinion. They're good to make anything from books to pamphlet or manuals, etc. The quality seems decent, actually a notch better than Cafe Press and cheaper, too.

[HapiSofi]

Maestro said:"...you set your own royalties and they pay you, I believe, quarterly. On top of the print cost they charge you a service charge. So let's say your basic cost per book is $8, and you want $8 royal, the price of your book would be about $18?"Aha! I recognize that -- it's the CafePress model. You provide the content, they do the production. Base price per unit covers the cost of production plus their own modest profit. You set the retail price wherever you think it'll sell. If you're right, you both make a little money. If you're wrong, you don't get paid for your time and effort, but otherwise nobody takes much of a loss.

It's not really publishing, just putting your book into print, and lord knows you'll never get rich off it. On the other hand, it's harmless.

[Greenwolf103]

Thanks, Maestro and Hapi, for shining more light on Lulu.com.

[ElonnaT]

This was posted on the Erotica Board, WriterBee said they have used lulu, perhaps you can send them a message and ask about their experience so far...

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm7.showMessage?topicID=17.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm7.showMessage?topicID=17.topic)

[animallist]

I'm thinking of using them for upcoming book.

[veingloree]

If you are going vanity, Lulu isn't so bad. Just the usual problems of the book costing twice as much as a normal one, and the need to edit and promote it yourself, and the fact no book store will carry it.

[snarzler]

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=436.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=436.topic)

Andrea :peace

[skylarburris]

I haven't used them but I read through their website.

It looks like they'd have the same negatives and positives of any POD.

If you DON'T want distribution, this is better than most PODs, because you pay no set up fee and can set your own cover price. You'd get your 250 page book for about $10 a piece, then you could re-sell them yourself at whatever price you want for a profit. But if this is all you want, a printer would probably make more sense than a POD.

If you DO want an ISBN and distribution to the online retailers (no POD will get you in bricks and moretar stores), you'll need to pay a set up fee of $160, still lower than most other PODs set up fees.

As for earnings, you set your own royalty and therefore your own cover price.

For a 250 page book, they would take about $10 (which they claim covers "cost" but that is much more than the cost of a printing a POD book) plus 20 percent of the royalty you set. Thus, if you set your cover price for $14, you would get $3.20 of that and they would get $10.80 for every sale. This seems about standard for a POD--a little lower than some, a little higher than others. You have more control with LULU though, and can set your own royalty and thus your own cover price.

I haven't heard of anything about their follow-through on distribution to the online retailers. I'd search by publisher on Amazon.com and see if any books come up.

This might be a good option, too, if you just want one or two copies of your book in book form for editing.

[Julie Worth]

I use them regularly. Their trade paperbacks are of high quality (if you upload quality files, of course). I use the books to get feedback and blurbs. Good blurbs do help if you’re trying to get an agent or publisher interested.

[techniqua]

My writing partner and I have been looking this site over and it LOOKS ok....has anyone on this board ever used them? Good? Bad? Indifferent?

any info would be helpful.
Thanks!
Techniqua

[Whachawant]

I know of one small company that used them to promote their 'complimentary' magazines. Another author uses them to show potential editors and publishers her finished manuscript. The small publishing company has now moved on to another printer.

On the flip side they have no marketing tactics, nor editing services, you have to do all the work yourself. An author of a children's book was disappointed to learn that in 6 months he only sold 2 books. That was after I told him to check the status of his sales.

The general consensus is to check with your local printer and see what kind of 'deal' you can work out.

[James D Macdonald]

They're a printer.

Everyone I know who's used them (admittedly a small sample) says that their quality is okay.

The one copy I saw was a decent physical specimen (though the author had used a typeface too small for my aging eyes in order to save paper costs).

Check their prices against the prices of a local short-run printer you find in the yellow pages for the number of copies you want to determine which makes the most sense.

[maestrowork]

Lulu does a decent job printing and shipping the books -- I believe they use Lightning Source (POD), too... The price is cheaper than Cafe Press and the turn-around time is decent. They're just a printer -- so you do your own layout, design, etc. and garbage in, garbage out. They seem to be very up-and-up about their business model. They do list your books on their website for sale (not available anywhere else). But if you purchase the ISBN service, they will put you in Ingram. Still you're the one responsible for selling and distributing your own books (e-books are also available as PDF files).

You set your own "royalties" so if your cost is $8, you can sell the book for $12 + shipping and pocket the $4.

[TravellerRose]

Lulu.com takes a percentage of every book sold. The only thing you actually have to pay for at the start is the IBSN, and you don't have to get one of those if it's an ebook or a magazine.
Like everything else, Lulu has pluses and minuses. Publishing your book is as cheap as it gets, you set your own price and Lulu deposit the money in your Paypal account from the sales. So far, I have had no trouble there.
Yes, you do have to do all the hard work of publicising your book, and getting people to actually go there and buy it, but it's a product, you would expect that. I sell only ebooks, so I have no idea what the print quality is like. That is pretty much up to you, to make certain in the planning stages of your book that it will look OK, although they do tell you if the cover is too small or whatever. There are lots of advice screens for people who want a printed product.
Overall, I have nothing to complain about. Lulu is exactly what the site says it is, and I have published craft books and a scrapbooking magazine there. What I like about it is having control of the whole look of the book, and designing my own covers.
I think it is a good way to publish ebooks, but I don't think it will replace traditional publishing - I have a print book coming out next year and I went the traditional publishing route with that.
Hope this helps - there is really nothing to fear from Lulu, what you see is what you get, and they pay your earnings from the books you sell with no trouble, I've found.

Gail Kavanagh

[arainsb123]

You don't even have to buy the ISBN if you don't want to. And they are a LOT better than CafePress in terms of paper quality, cover quality, and turnaround time.

[maestrowork]

Part of the problem I find, though, with Lulu is that it automatically puts your book on site for sale, whether you want it or not. It needs to be "available" for sale for you to order prints, but it also is available for the general public. You can't just say "it's only for me and a few people I tell." So if you don't want someone accidentally finds the book and gets it, it can be a problem.

With Cafepress your product is not automatically put on some online catalog or search list. So, a person has to know your "store ID" in order to find your book.

[Julie Worth]

"Part of the problem I find, though, with Lulu is that it automatically puts your book on site for sale, whether you want it or not."

Not true. You can set it so your book is only available through a direct link...although it's still possible for someone to stumble across the link, I suppose. And I suppose some lunatic might even buy it. (The chances of that happening are less than being eaten by an octopus while watching television). To be absolutely safe, you can order whatever copies you want, then make the book unavailable. Even with the link, no one can buy it until you make it available again.

[WritingChick]

For those who have used or are using lulu to sell their work...do you also sell on your own author website? Or do you only use lulu and if so, why not also sell on your author website? Thanks! :D

[schnootzie]

I also use them and I think they're great. As above, you only get what you send in. Grammer, typos, etc., are in the final copy. Warts and all! But, if you're willing to do all the scut work, and it's a lot, the final product is wonderful. Quality covers, great print, etc. I've used them for books for family, etc. and am very happy with them.
schnootzie

[schnootzie]

PS. There is absolutely NO charge unless you purchase a copy and then it's really very nominal. I think a 100 pg book is about 6.00. Like any POD you do all the work inc. publicity, etc.
schnootzie

[skylarburris]

Part of the problem I find, though, with Lulu is that it automatically puts your book on site for sale, whether you want it or not. It needs to be "available" for sale for you to order prints, but it also is available for the general public. .


This is not true. Lulu gives you the option to "Make Public" or "Make Available Only to Me."



I use Lulu to print up copies of my books for editing, because I enjoy editing a hard copy printed in book form. I catch more that way. I don't consider these books "published," since I am the only one buying them.



I may use Lulu to sell a poetry book from my own website as well. Lulu is more costly than a short run printer, but you don't have to pre-print and stock and deliver the books yourself. They are printed one at a time as they are ordered, and they are shipped by Lulu.



The print quality is comparable to any other POD. Any problems with layout are due to errors made by the author; the author is in complete control of layout and content and the cover. It's a do-it-yourself POD.



I probably wouldn't publish a book through them that I wanted to sell to a large audience via Amazon.com or B&N.com. The cover price would be too high. But if you are selling books from your own website only, to a small audience, it's a good option. That's why I am considering it for my poetry book. I have a small fan base, but I don't expect to get a book contract for poetry. It's very difficult to do, because poetry just doesn't sell. Most poetry books these days are published through competitions; and you have to pay to enter those contests.

[Topsarge]

Xerox had a contest for an unpublished manuscript last month and they used Lulu as the publisher. I entered the contest but it took me about three weeks to get evrything formatted and in their data base. Waiting now to hear if I won. lol.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lulu is a printer rather than a publisher.

See http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4279&page=1&pp=25 for more.

[Project nachonaco]

If I go to Lulu Publishing, will I be paid?

[Aconite]

If I go to Lulu Publishing, will I be paid?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but there are already two threads on Lulu (the Index sticky'd to the top of this page is really handy for searches):
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=839

[victoriastrauss]

Moving to the longest Lulu thread.

- Victoria

[Julie Worth]

If I go to Lulu Publishing, will I be paid?

The koan: you will be paid, but you won't make any money.

[Bufty]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but there are already two threads on Lulu (the Index sticky'd to the top of this page is really handy for searches):
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=839

Isn't this another thread, too, or just a duplication?

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4279&page=1&pp=25&highlight=Lulu (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4279&page=1&pp=25&highlight=Lulu)

[Aconite]

Isn't this another thread, too, or just a duplication?

It's another thread. I think Cao only (!) indexed the BABC board's threads.

[Bufty]

It's a very helpful one, too. Follows the procedure on a test run.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you go with Lulu.com and you sell something, you will either get paid via Paypay in the early part of the following month, or by paper check every three months.

You will be able to get hour-by-hour updates on sales if any.

Remember that Lulu is strictly a printer. Everything other than producing a physical book-shaped object is up to you.

[Epicman]

Look at Diggorypress.com first...

They are lower cost overall if you want to sell your book and you get 60% to over 75% royalties.

Look at the Infinity thread on Bewares thread for a penny by penny experience of my book and a lot mor info about this. There is even a $ for $ comparison of Lulu vs. Diggory there.

Epicman
Glenn S. Hamilton
http://www.cometogetherbooks.com

[mdin]

I haven't participated in the Infinity discussion, but Diggory and Lulu look like completely different operations to me. Lulu is a DIY type operation, and books are only one of the several things you can get printed and fulfilled. Plus their cheapest price is "free." Diggory seems to be more like a typical POD vanity press. Plus they have a pretty strong Christian slant, which is fine and/or irrelevant for many people, but it makes it unappealing for many others.

[James D. Macdonald]

Epicman, is it necessary for you to turn every thread into an ad for Diggory Press?

You just signed up with them. Let's see how you feel a year from now, okay?


They are lower cost overall if you want to sell your book and you get 60% to over 75% royalties.

Let's see if that's true:

Diggory:

US$50 initial set-up fee
$20 for your first soft-back proof inc. postage and packing

Lulu:

US$0 initial set-up fee
Price for first soft-back proof varies by page count. For a 108 page 6x9, B&W interior with color covers, perfect bound: $6.69. Postage depends on how you want it sent. Two pounds net, the cost via media mail is $1.84.

So let's see ... lower cost overall?

$70 versus $8.53

Shall we move on to the extras?

Diggory: There will be a $20 a year file storage and maintenance charge that will be billed on an annual basis for each title.

Lulu: No storage fee.

Diggory: ISBN with barcode costs $90

Lulu: ISBN with barcode costs $34.95

Cost per book for a thousand books (108 pages each)

Diggory: $2.62 each

Lulu: $3.77

Finally! A place where Diggory is cheaper! Is anyone planning to buy a thousand copies all at once?

Royalty rate comparisons aren't really meaningful, since at Lulu you set your own royalty rate. Lulu takes 20% of the total profit (retail price minus cost of printing), so I guess (looking at it one way) you could say that Lulu gives you an 80% royalty rate.

Again, that's if you sell anything.

[Epicman]

Sorry James - no there are many threads I don't mention Diggory in - only threads where it is applicable. I also would never want to go up against you either - you have given me much helpful advice both directly and indirectly from posts you put up for others. For that I am truly grateful. Absolutely no disrespect is intended here so never take it that way.

In one of these threads (I mentioned the wrong one - it's in "Infinity vs Diggory" in the "POD Self-Publishing and E-Publishing" forum Post #10) there is a cost comparison done between Diggory and Lulu. I dont know how to link the specific post here or I would. I also dont wish to take up too much space by copying and pasting it here. I simply referred them to the thread for more information. I stated clearly that I was experimenting as there wasn't too much info about them and thought there may be some who may be interested.

Anyhow, if one just wants a copy or two Lulu is a great deal. If you want the distribution, listings, a human to look at your book to make sure it is formatted correctly, great author copy prices even in smaller quantities (200 @ $3.50 each at 140 pages in 6X9), ability to price your book in line with comparable titles, and they only charge $4.80 per copy (140 pages) for fulfillment which is far lower than any PoD I am aware of. When I get some time, I will do an exact comparison between what I did and what that would have cost me at the other PoD's mentioned here including Lulu - just for educational purposes.

Again James I don't want to 'get into it' or show any disrespect whatsoever but the comparison mentioned in the other thread - I did not write it - is factual based upon my experience.

Epicman
Glenn S. Hamilton
http://www.cometogetherbooks.com

[James D. Macdonald]

The cost comparison is at http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=298465&postcount=10

Logos1234567 is also a true believer, and also only recently published by Diggory. We'll see what a year brings.

[Torin]

Royalty rate comparisons aren't really meaningful, since at Lulu you set your own royalty rate. Lulu takes 20% of the total profit (retail price minus cost of printing), so I guess (looking at it one way) you could say that Lulu gives you an 80% royalty rate.

Again, that's if you sell anything.




Actually, what Lulu does is ADD another 20% for them. So if you set your royalty at $2.00, the ebook will sell for $2.40, and $2.40 is added to the printing cost of the paperback. Lulu gets their 20% of the royalty you set, you get 100% of the royalty you set and they pay quarterly via Paypal. I'm not going to get rich with Lulu, but the books are cheaper than Cafepress' and you've got complete ownership. I had one book up at Lulu for fans and when it sold to eXtasy Books, I took it down. The quality of their books is very good, too. I got my free copy for completing NaNoWriMo last year and I'm leaving it up at Lulu while I shop it around to agents. I figure if the product is going to go out exactly as I made it, I'm better off with Lulu than anyone else *coughPAcough*. :D

[Epicman]

I finally had some time to visit Lulu and look at their pricing.

Here is what I found:

According to their own "Book Cost Calculator" a 140 page book perfect bound costs:

$7.33

This is the cost if someone orders the book direct from Lulu - say a customer.

With Diggory the same exact service costs:

$4.80

After doing searches at Amazon.com for books that are somewhat comparable to mine in topic (nonfiction) and size I found that $13.95 is a very reasonable cover price - so that is the price of my book. Let's assume we price them the same then:

Lulu $13.95 cover minus $7.33 cost equals $6.62 left over for the author right? NO Lulu takes 20% of your profit so $6.62 profit minus 20% = $6.62 -$1.32 = $5.30 Exactly a 38% profit (royalty) to the author.

The same exact comparison with my book through Diggory:

$13.95 cover minus $4.80 cost equals $9.15 left over for the author right? YES Diggory has their fee built-in to the fulfillment costs and doesn't mark them up as Lulu has done to get money out of it twice. So for the percentage profit (royalty) to the author: $13.95 - $4.80 = $9.15 for an almost 67% royalty.

So Diggory's royalty to the author for a book sold to a customer is nearly double that of Lulu's. Sure you could get an even bigger royalty through Lulu - by pricing your book so high that no one would even buy it.

I didn't have time to compare the other services - it seems you have to sign up for an account at Lulu to do that and I just do not have the time. If anyone wants to check here are the Diggory costs:

$50 set-up fee. A human being sets it up and helps you fix any errors in format and even offers suggestions - but you may ignore them and do it any way you want.

$20 to insert a photo on the front cover - I pick one and provide it.

$20 to insert a photo or text on the rear cover - again it is mine.

$60 to get a full-color ad in the Ingram catalog that goes out to over 20,000 book sellers. It was an extra I chose - you don't have to.

$90 for ISBN number, barcode, distribution, they put my book up at Amazon- ALL of them world-wide and so far over 30 other on-line vendors. They also obtained CIP (cataloging-in-publication) data from the British library.

$20 for your first proof including shipping and handling.

The total was $260 for the above items that I chose. I don't even know if Lulu offers the same items WITH the same services but here are the numbers for your own comparisons.

Just an additional note:

If you want to sell your book in book stores the figure I have been hearing frequently is a 40% discount at least. If you do that with a Lulu book - remember comparably priced to my Diggory book - you already MUST increase the cover price just to cover the discount. This leaves you with two options:

Increase your cover price just to cover the discount - this leaves no profit. Or you could increase it to a degree to make your 38% royalty you had in the first place which would make the cover price so high the book store wouldn't buy it anyway.

With Diggory the numbers work like this:

$13.95 cover price - a 40% discount = $8.37 price to book stores. $8.37 - $4.80 (fulfillment cost) = $3.57 profit (royalty) or an almost 26% royalty to the author. Still making a nice royalty even with a 40% discount off the reasonable cover price.

Check it out for yourself at www.Lulu.com (http://www.Lulu.com) and www.diggorypress.com (http://www.diggorypress.com)

[James D. Macdonald]

$50 set-up fee. A human being sets it up and helps you fix any errors in format and even offers suggestions - but you may ignore them and do it any way you want.

Lulu: Setup cost is $0

$20 to insert a photo on the front cover - I pick one and provide it.

Lulu: Cost to put a photo on the front cover: $0.


$20 to insert a photo or text on the rear cover - again it is mine.

Lulu: Cost for text and/or photo on the back cover: $0.


$60 to get a full-color ad in the Ingram catalog that goes out to over 20,000 book sellers. It was an extra I chose - you don't have to.

I don't know if Lulu offers this service. I expect that you need to call Ingram on the phone and make your own deal.



$90 for ISBN number, barcode, distribution, they put my book up at Amazon- ALL of them world-wide and so far over 30 other on-line vendors.

Lulu cost for ISBN + barcode on the cover: $34.95, includes listing in Books in Print, and placement in the Amazon Marketplace.

Cost for listing with cover picture, editorial content and so on at Amazon: $0 if you want to do it yourself (they provide a worksheet with instructions for Amazon, Borders, and Barnes&Noble. All the other on-line bookstores seem to suck their content from one or more of those three).

They also obtained CIP (cataloging-in-publication) data from the British library.

CIP isn't available for POD books in America.


$20 for your first proof including shipping and handling.

You aren't required to buy a proof copy. But if you do, it's the baseline printing cost ($7.33 for a 140 page book) plus shipping. Here are the shipping prices: http://www.lulu.com/help/node/view/15#shipping

============

[LloydBrown]

James, your numbers aren't an impressive comparison. So, at setup, Lulu looks to be about $100 cheaper, IF you choose all the options Diggory offers. And then you make less money on every sale, such that it only takes about 20 sales to recoup your initial investments. Everything after that is higher margins. Even Atlanta Nights hit that mark.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lloyd, please don't think that I'm recommending Lulu. I'm not. Outside of certain very tightly defined areas it's a lousy choice for any author .

[James D. Macdonald]

Also: Please note that "every sale" is a ridiculously tiny number.

So far Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550) has sold 489 copies.

Only 37 other books, among the thousands listed in all of Lulu, have sold more copies.

The requirements that I was working under were these:

a) There had to be no upfront cost whatever. The author never spends a dime of his own money.

b) The book had to be available that same day.

c) The cover price had to be set such that the royalty per copy would be the same as the royalty a PublishAmerica author with a book of the same length would get per unit sold.

--------------

I put the ISBN on after the first $34.95 in royalties arrived.

[PeeDee]

I spent about a month being a generally friendly person over on the Lulu forums before they invited me to join a group of people on an e-group who got ideas bounced off, suggested stuff Lulu should make use of, and just generally brainstormed about Lulu. Loads of fun. I was also happy because, a few days after I agreed to join the group, a box arrived in the mail with a very comfortable (though very oddly-orange) Lulu hat. I still wear it, now and again.

One thing I always appreciated about Lulu is, the staff is nice. Extremely nice. I don't just mean polite, I mean friendly.

I use Lulu for the stuff that I don't have a vested interest in selling. For example, I did some free series work on the internet (it was how I cut my teeth, when I started actively pursuing writing). It was decently popular. A thousand-plus pages later, I had long since moved on, but I gathered it all up into book form (aware that things eventually get lost and fragmented on the internet) and left it out there for anyone who wanted to read it. I don't expect it read. I'm not making a living off it. It was useful in that I ordered a copy for myself and had a nice thick volume to put on the shelf, rather than a clumsy folder stuffed with a thousand-plus sheets of paper.

They do a good job, but they're not in the same ballpark as Random House, HarperCollins, etc. THe reason is that they're not in a ballpark. They're a whole different game.

Baseball and Football both use a ball; Random House and Lulu both use paper. You see what I mean.

[Epicman]

James and Peedee's posts illustrate exactly what I am talking about. If you just want a single - or even a couple of copies and you are not looking to market or sell your book extensively Lulu is the route to go. If, on the other hand, you wish to market the book extensively and possibly sell over 29 copies* then Diggory is the proper choice.

*this was my break-even that I exceeded before my $260 check was even cashed: $9.15 profit per copy X 28.45 = $260. I pre-sold twice that many through my website before the check was cashed and over three times as many before the book became available on Amazon.

So if you assume you sell a 140 page book at $13.95 cover price through Amazon:

Lulu 100 copies = $530 profit minus $34.99 (ISBN) $495.01 to the author.

Diggory 100 copies = $915 profit minus $260 (see previous post) $655 to the author which is $159.99 more than the same book through Lulu.

If we use the 489 copies sold to date of Atlanta Nights:
(just the number of copies sold that is)

Lulu = $2591.70 - $34.99 ISBN = $2556.71 profit to the author.

Diggory = $4474.35 - $260 (see previous post) = $4214.35 profit to the author or $1657.64 more than using Lulu.

The numbers speak for themselves and it all comes down to the author's intent. If you want a book or a few books use Lulu. If you want to sell your book use Diggory.

In support of James I agree that money should flow to the author - always. But for those of us who, because of whatever reason, have chosen to go with a POD, vanity house, or whatever term is used should examine their intentions before deciding on a particular publisher.

I chose to go the route I did because my material is extremely time-sensitive (did you see the Associated Press article of September 16th about the Kansas school board and the Nobel Peace Prize winners?) and I did not have the time to wait out the agent/publisher slush pile game. Like James says we'll see what a year brings - but so far its all been good.

[PeeDee]

Checked out Diggory Press. Honestly, though the prices are lower, it's still the same as iUniverse or its ilk. If it works for you, then it's worked for you. For my miscellaneous stuff, I'll still use Lulu.

All of these are like magic feathers. Why wait through all that tedious "major publishing house" business when wham-bang! you can be in print just like that?

If it were a magic feather that really honest-to-goodness worked, then I would walk into Barnes & Noble and I wouldn't see Simon & Schuster, Random House, Bantam Spectra, Dell Ray, etc. I would see a whole different slew of publishers such as Diggory, iUniverse, AuthorHouse, (*shudder* PublishAmerica...).

*cough*...plus they didn't send me a hat...*cough*:banana:

[Enigma101]

It's not official yet, but sometime this March, Lulu will announce they will be stopping free deleivery. The reason behind this; they lose too much money from it!
This is not good news for international Lulu authors.

[newfieval]

LuLu is a printer. I was looking for just that. I used them to print copies of a my completed book. Did my own cover. I am pleased but then again being my book is of the alternative sort it was the best choice for me to be in control of the whole process.

[MDavis]

Got a question for people in the publishing business. I'd like to make one copy of my book so my electronically (and apparently manuscriptally) challenged dad can read it without waiting to see if I'll ever get it published. I looked on Lulu, and I like the feature where you can make it so that it's only available to you.

If I do this, will it hurt me when I'm shopping my novel to agents? I don't consider making a single copy through an online printer like Lulu "publishing" (especially if it's not available to the public), but would an agent or publishing house think they didn't have first printing rights?

Thanks!
-M

[Aconite]

MDavis--note that I am not a lawyer, but I seriously doubt any publisher would consider printing a single copy for personal use to be publishing your manuscript.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you don't make it available to the public, it isn't published.

Any agent or editor should assume that every member of your family, and any of your friends who couldn't outrun you, has already seen the text of your book. Whether it was on a disc, hole-punched in a three-ring binder, or turned into a book-looking object makes no difference.

[Atomic Bear]

Got a question for people in the publishing business. I'd like to make one copy of my book so my electronically (and apparently manuscriptally) challenged dad can read it without waiting to see if I'll ever get it published. I looked on Lulu, and I like the feature where you can make it so that it's only available to you....
Thanks!
-M

I am planning on doing them myself to display at Comic-Con this year. The unfinished graphic novel will be printed up into a mock form to give an idea to publishers how it could possibly look on the shelf.

[james1611]

James I think your calculation is missing one other item...to get the same distribution that puts you on Amazon.com, barnes and noble and all the others...at lulu, this is the "global distribution" package (150$)

the 34.95$ deal gets you an ISBN and amazon marketplace which is essentially an auction like ebay if I'm not mistaken...not nearly as good as the regular amazon site.

The problem is of course, that all self publishers and basically most of the independents without big cash reserves are relegated to ONLINE venues only...but if you aren't eating off of your royalties and just want to write and publish your work, its still better than nothing......if you've worked your way down from the top in submissions and found no other home for your book.

James

[James D. Macdonald]

Once you have an ISBN, getting the "global distribution" is a matter of paying for it -- or a matter of knowing how to format the letters to the various on-line booksellers.

[CaoPaux]

(UJ ported the first few from NEPAT)

Yesterday, 09:41 AM
ByGrace
Board fanatic

That may be that Lulu is a good choice for poetry and cookbooks, but after reading about the lawsuit Ed Scott has levied against them, I'd be dubious to send them anything now. So maybe it could be the lesser of two evils?

I have to say that in the early days of Publish America, there were some very good novels published. I read quite a few, and in defense of these authors, their writing was exceptional. These are authors that should have been published by a real commercial publisher. Some have gotten out of their contracts with PA and have moved on to being published elsewhere.

Just last night I got an email about one author who has gone on to sign a contract for several new novels with St. Martin's press. So that should give many of us hope. St. Martin's did not care that her first two books were with PA. They were interested in her new work.

So those of us who were duped should not give up. We should work hard to better our writing, and submit. I think the biggest slap in PA's face would be for us to be published with a respected publisher.

I've noticed over the last few years, PA is publishing less novels and more books on abuse or poetry. I imagine those books are hard to place with an agent.

Not all earlier novels with PA were short. My first book was over 400 pages. Yesterday, 03:25 PM
Alan Yee
Bull King of the Sparklecows

I recommended Lulu because there have been some poets who published their books with PA to print some copies for themselves, whereas they could have printed some copies for themselves with Lulu for less money. Since PA is sometimes denounced as a printer (when in fact it's a vanity press), I believe we were comparing PA-as-a-printer to Lulu (which is indeed a printer, a would make the book self-published). Lulu is much more author-friendly and much cheaper as opposed to if you use PA as a printer.

Whether or not you should use Lulu depends on whether your type of book is intended for a commercial audience, i.e. poetry books = almost no market; commercial fiction = definitely a huge market. It also depends on your goals as a writer. If you just wrote a book for fun and don't intend on getting publishing or having a career as a writer; or if the book's only intended for family members (such as a genealogy); or if it's your life story to give to your spouse and kids, Lulu might be a reasonable option.

Novels, in general, don't work as well with Lulu and self-publication (Atlanta Nights is an exception--it was not intended for publication by a commercial publisher). If you seriously want to have a writing career, go for the big agents and publishers first. I would probably fit under this category (seriously working towards publication). Most (but not all) unhappy PA authors are those who wanted their books to be shelved in bookstores and, most importantly, to be purchased and read by readers.* Some of these unhappy former PA authors have gone on to commercial publication after they tried to break off their ties with PA and get their rights to their book back.


* Books on bookstore shelves, purchased by someone in a bookstore, and read by the customer -- not necessarily in that order if your readers heard about your book, decided to use the library system, actually FOUND it there, took it home and read it, thought "hey that was a cool book. I'm gonna buy a copy for myself so I can read it over again and again, and I'll tell all my friends," and THEN purchases the book and spreads the word all across the globe about how great your book is. OR, they found it on the shelvesof the bookstore, read the cover blurb, thought "ooh, that sounds interesting I'll look inside and if I like it," read the first few pages, thought "ooh, this book held my interest I think I'll buy it and take it home to read," and then otherwise follows the same process as library users...)
__________________
My blog Yesterday, 04:45 PM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage

Cookbooks? Cookbooks have a huge market. I'd go with a commercial publisher if I had a cookbook -- Wiley, maybe.

If you mean the kind of cookbook that church ladies sell as a fundraiser at the annual Covered Dish Supper, a better choice might be going through a local printshop. The price per unit would almost certainly be lower.
__________________Yesterday, 05:19 PM
astonwest
SuperHero Extraordinaire

LULU publishing was never authorized to sell or publish my western and every one who bought a copy became accidental conspirators of an illegal enterprise and any copy out there is in violation of US copyright laws since this company did this without my permission.

They sent me a email stating they would place up a blurb about my book, so a publisher could see if they were interested, then when I said yes to a 2 sentence spot only, they violated my agreement and without my knowledge printed and sold the book never paying me any fees for any copy sold.

I am suing them now, but I need the public to stop buying it ASAP and send the information on to your friends about the illegal manners of LULU. COM.

After reading this, my guess is that someone didn't read and understand the instructions and options during the signup process, rather than blatant violations by Lulu...but anything is possible.

__________________
Big Daddy WestYesterday, 05:20 PM
Christine N.
Bush has the Ring!

What I'm talking about, Jim, is more of the 'family recipes I want to pass on' type of cookbook.
__________________
ChristineYesterday, 05:25 PM
Alan Yee
Bull King of the Sparklecows

AstonWest:

Wow, that person is paranoid. I'm surprised that it said "Lulu" instead of "PublishAmerica." PublishAmerica does illegally sell books that they no longer have the rights to.

It sounds like the person didn't feel like reading that long list of instructions and options on the "sign-up" page.
__________________
My blog Yesterday, 05:28 PM
CaoPaux
Mostly Harmless

Quote:
Originally Posted by astonwest
After reading this, my guess is that someone didn't read and understand the instructions and options during the signup process, rather than blatant violations by Lulu...but anything is possible.

Yeah, I'll bet he was trying for the "private" option. The mind boggles.
__________________
CAO Yesterday, 05:29 PM
LeslieB
Geek Unique

Quote:
Originally Posted by astonwest
After reading this, my guess is that someone didn't read and understand the instructions and options during the signup process, rather than blatant violations by Lulu...but anything is possible.

I'm wondering how they got his book to publish it without him uploading it to them. Because... why would you upload the manuscript if you were just buying advertising? I think you are right about him not understanding just what he was doing.
__________________
"I'm your worst nightmare, a computer geek with a badge." Yesterday, 05:42 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by astonwest
After reading this, my guess is that someone didn't read and understand the instructions and options during the signup process, rather than blatant violations by Lulu..

I agree. His statement is not only unclear, but it doesn't make sense.

Based on this rambling in his book description (found in a cache file and no longer available through Lulu), I'll agree with the "lack of reading comprehension" school of thought.

"Black Gold” is set in the Arizona Territory just after the Civil War. The leading male character, Ed Daulton, is a wander. Ed is trying to out run a past that haunts him. You learn as the book progress that the horror of his past is tried to the Civil War and his experiences there in. He is a highly ethical man, a man of values and strong moral Faith. Amy Baggen is the leading female. Amy is a sweet, innocent, young woman tied to her land and devastated by the cruel murder of her father. Amy is also strong willed and very likable. The villain in this book is Leo Grant. Grant is after Amy’s land for the secret that lies benath it. He is ruthless and cruel and out to destroy anything and everyone that stands between him and Amy’s land. The conflict between the two leads is simple things like trust, both not feeling that they are worthy of the other’s love and of course timing in their lives.
__________________
Lloyd Brown Yesterday, 05:43 PM
Berry
Super Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by astonwest
After reading this, my guess is that someone didn't read and understand the instructions and options during the signup process, rather than blatant violations by Lulu...but anything is possible.

That was my guess. And besides, I can't find any works listed on Lulu created by either Ed or Edward Scott. Clearly we aren't getting the whole story here. Yesterday, 05:51 PM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage

The cache file is here, for as long as Google holds onto it:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a
__________________ Yesterday, 06:32 PM
PeeDee
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
"Black Gold is set in the Arizona Territory just after the Civil War. The leading male character, Ed Daulton, is a wander. Ed is trying to out run a past that haunts him. You learn as the book progress that the horror of his past is tried to the Civil War and his experiences there in. He is a highly ethical man, a man of values and strong moral Faith. Amy Baggen is the leading female. Amy is a sweet, innocent, young woman tied to her land and devastated by the cruel murder of her father. Amy is also strong willed and very likable. The villain in this book is Leo Grant. Grant is after Amy s land for the secret that lies benath it. He is ruthless and cruel and out to destroy anything and everyone that stands between him and Amy s land. The conflict between the two leads is simple things like trust, both not feeling that they are worthy of the other s love and of course timing in their lives.


Ed Daulton soon finds that all your base are belong to us.

(Good. God.)
__________________
-Pete Tzinski Yesterday, 08:09 PM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage

Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
I agree. His statement is not only unclear, but it doesn't make sense.

It's a bit more than that. If you look at the Google Cache of Ed's web page, you see that he had a link to Lulu for folks who wanted to buy his book.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...n t=firefox-a
__________________ Yesterday, 08:12 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Ah, good sleuthing. I only googled the author's name, not the book, and restricted the search to site: lulu.com.

So, he's apparently suing them for selling a book that he contracted them to sell and that he advertised for sale himself, linking to their sales site?

Hmm. I wonder how much his court costs will be.
__________________
Lloyd Brown Yesterday, 08:13 PM
PeeDee
Board fanatic

I think I love the phrase "a stranger and Apaches" though.

This doesn't in any way disparage against Lulu. It's just an idiot, one of those illiterate people who write books. Why that happens, I'll never know.

Lulu's fine. I still maintain that, so long as you don't go to Lulu thinking that it's going to be a publisher like RandomHouse (and soon, you too can be famous) then you're fine. For what it does, it's a very good service, and certainly one of the more honest sites on the web, in myne opinion.

Don't just take my word for it, though. Ask a strange and Apaches.
__________________
-Pete Tzinski Yesterday, 08:14 PM
PeeDee
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
Ah, good sleuthing. I only googled the author's name, not the book, and restricted the search to site: lulu.com.

So, he's apparently suing them for selling a book that he contracted them to sell and that he advertised for sale himself, linking to their sales site?

Hmm. I wonder how much his court costs will be.

He should've saved his court money and just gone with PublishAmerica instead.
__________________
-Pete Tzinski Yesterday, 08:28 PM
James D. Macdonald
Dawnolite Sparklecow
Absolute Sage

Let's look at something else (also from Google Cache):

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/daulton3.jpg
http://www.sff.net/people/yog/daulton4.jpg

Okay, 408 pages. If you just ran the book through Lulu straight, a 408 page book would go for $12.71. So somehow this book also got a dollar tacked onto its cover price. That would make no sense if he intended to go for the private option.

Ed says:

Quote:
They sent me a email stating they would place up a blurb about my book, so a publisher could see if they were interested, then when I said yes to a 2 sentence spot only, they violated my agreement and without my knowledge printed and sold the book never paying me any fees for any copy sold.

I'm unaware of any such program over at Lulu, and don't see any other books with just a two-sentence blurb so publishers can see if they're interested.

You want my guess?

My guess is that Ed uploaded and published his book himself. (I'm familiar with the process, from other projects, and know exactly how it works. I know exactly which radio buttons he pressed, and what he had to type in.) He put a price on it, he advertised it on his web page. I bet if anyone has any old emails from Ed in their files they'll find a link to Lulu with "buy my book now!" in his sig line.

So, he's self-published his book. Then he says, "Wow. Maybe I can get a real publisher to take a look!" And he starts to send around copies of his nice perfect-bound trade paperback. But the answer he keeps getting from publisher after publisher is "Sorry, we don't do reprints."

What can he do?

I'm guessing that the lawsuit is a cartooney.

__________________ Yesterday, 09:19 PM
PeeDee
Board fanatic

I think you're right, but I think that having a cartoony lawsuit ("What the...? How'd my book get published there? I didn't do it! Once I got my book back from those hooligans, will you publish me...?") is not going to do him much good when he goes to publishing houses.

Save maybe Publishers' Clearing House.
__________________
-Pete TzinskiAlas, we've lost the Attack of the Summer Interns. :tongue (Let the record show that Lulu does not engage in or condone spam.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's the .jpg from Ed's page cache that shows clearly that he himself had linked to the book-for-sale:

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/daulton.jpg (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/daulton2.jpg)

[PeeDee]

If you can't find a cached post of me calling him an idiot, I'm willing to re-type it.

*ahem*

This man is an idiot.

(not a problem)

[Andrew Jameson]

Ha! Very nice, Uncle Jim.

[Tilly]

Busted!

(Peedee, please post a pic of the Lulu hat. I'm overwhelmed with curiosity.)

[CaoPaux]

Aaarrrrgh! I just realized that the above was supposed to be in Lulu thread #839. Oh, well. Here’s the rest of Lulu thread #904….

06-11-2006, 09:31 PM
yeyeman9
One of the Locals

I want to publish my book, I want it to be in the major websites as Amazon.com, Borders and all that. Will Lulu do this for me? Is lulu good for this type of thing? I want to sell my book, I want it to reach the masses, I want people to read it. But is Lulu good enough for this or I should go somewhere else? THANKS! 06-11-2006, 09:39 PM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member

If you want to be read by a lot of people, you want to be published by one of the big commercial publishers. Self-publishing won't get you that. It's easy to get a book listed on the online sites; it's much harder to get it in bookstores, and stores are still where most books are sold.

For what you want, you need a commercial publisher, with an editing department, a production department, a marketing department, a publicity department, distribution channels, and stuff you don't even know about that's critical to the success of your book.

Want a really graphic example of why you want to go with a commercial publisher? If a self-published book sells 5,000 copies, that's considered stupendously successful (for a self-pubbed book. Most self-published books sell about 70-100 copies). If a commercially published book sells only 5,000 copies, it's considered a disaster. Commercial publishers routinely sell a lot of books. Self-publishers don't.
__________________
06-11-2006, 10:29 PM
James D. Macdonald
Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeyeman9
I want to publish my book, I want it to be in the major websites as Amazon.com, Borders and all that. Yes, if you're willing to pay for it.

(Before we begin, you should know that "publishing" has a lot more to it than just "printing."

Quote:
Will Lulu do this for me? Is lulu good for this type of thing? They'll print your book every time they get an order, and that's the extent of it.

Quote:
I want to sell my book, I understand that -- but do you want to have a full time job as a salesman?

Quote:
I want it to reach the masses, I want people to read it. Then find a publisher. (Note: if you go to any POD at all I pinch the bridge of my nose and shake my head.)

Quote:
But is Lulu good enough for this or I should go somewhere else? THANKS! If you want wide readership you need to go elsewhere. How many Lulu books have you personally read? How about your friends?

Who publishes the books that you read? Get your book published by them.
__________________
06-12-2006, 12:29 AM
yeyeman9
One of the Locals

I have already tried, thats the problem. None of them will accept them because it is too short, 26,000 words. I have tried coming up with ideas on how to extend it, but haven't been able to yet. So either A)Publish it with a self publishing company like Lulu, B) Try and see if I can extend it somehow, even tho I feel like it is complete or C)Never publish it at all. 06-12-2006, 02:05 AM
James D. Macdonald
Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage

Write a new, better, different, longer work. Sell it. Get a following. Uncomfortable lengths can become comfortable if you can provide the readers.

Publishers aren't wary of novella or novelette-length stories just because they decided one day to make things tough for writers. The public in general doesn't buy them.

Readers rule this industry -- never forget it.

Self-publishing your work won't magically make it more attractive to readers. What will make your work more attractive to readers is showing them a good time in other books.

There's one more thing to remember. There are worse things than not being published. Being published badly is one of them.
__________________
06-12-2006, 02:25 AM
yeyeman9
One of the Locals

Quote:
Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
Write a new, better, different, longer work. Sell it. Get a following. Uncomfortable lengths can become comfortable if you can provide the readers.

Publishers aren't wary of novella or novelette-length stories just because they decided one day to make things tough for writers. The public in general doesn't buy them.

Readers rule this industry -- never forget it.

Self-publishing your work won't magically make it more attractive to readers. What will make your work more attractive to readers is showing them a good time in other books.

There's one more thing to remember. There are worse things than not being published. Being published badly is one of them. True, you might get bad reputation and all that. I am actually writing another one, a new one, right now. Which should be, hopefully and I will try my best, longer. I was planning on finishing this one now, hopefully get a publisher and afterwards retry to publish the one that isn't long enough. DOn't know if I explained myself pretty well there...but oh well, hehe. And thanks for your help and suggestions, really appreciate it. 06-12-2006, 02:27 AM
James D. Macdonald
Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage

Was is 100% necessary to quote my entire flippin' post?
__________________ 06-12-2006, 02:54 AM
yeyeman9
One of the Locals

Sorry didn't think it bother ya that much...It was easier for me...

[Baumski]

Hi,

Has anyone had any experiences with Lulu Publishing. I've visited the website and it looks like just the kind of company that every writer would want to be part of. But is it all that it's cracked up to be, I wonder.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's a vanity press. Up front about being a vanity press, but there you are.

Extensively discussed in the Self-Publishing boards.

[Baumski]

Having just extensively spent the last few hours reading all the posts on this thread, the one important thing that I've learned is that Lulu isn't out to con anybody. There are limitations to using them but at the end of the day they are, as has often been said on this thread, a what you see is what you get printing company.

Just as a by the by, I'd just like to state that this is an outstanding website and although I am yet to fully immerse myself within the community, I am forever in the debt of people who really do care about writing and all things associated with it.

Many thanks.

[Christine N.]

Actually I wouldn't really lump Lulu in with vanity presses. I'd say they are a printer service. Now, if you buy an ISBN from them, THEN they become the publisher, and they could BE a vanity press.

But if you already own the ISBN and have your own micropress, then Lulu is a POD type printer-with-storefront. You are the publisher in that instance; and a self-publisher. You can buy a distribution package, from Lulu, but it's not required.

Some vanity presses actually go over the manuscript for errors and charge enormous amounts for cover design; Lulu does not. It's BYOC if you want. You can use their stock covers or upload your own.

They are involved with final product only so much as taking orders, collecting money and printing and shipping. They don't charge up front for this service, they take money from orders received and get their base price/unit. Which is slightly higher than if you used BookSurge, for example, another digital printing company, owned by Amazon.

But what everyone else has said is correct; they are up front about being what they are.

[Baumski]

Thanks Christine.

[Marva]

I did a proof copy of one of a couple of books on Lulu. The quality was quite satisfactory. I wouldn't go the sell route, but it was nice to get a free copy of my Nanowrimo novel from them. So, I printed up a few more for friends and family. I've also got a short stories book that will unlikely be taken as a whole anywhere, but wanted a copy for my father. The stories are from him and he's the putative narrator as an 11-year-old boy. Texas tall tales.

All that self-promoting aside (which isn't, because there are no books for sale), the cover, paper quality, and overall look of both books were professional quality. I've sure bought worse for big bucks.

[James D. Macdonald]

When you buy their ISBN, it's vanity. When you provide your own, or run without an ISBN, it's self-publishing and they're your printer.

[HapiSofi]

M. Davis, your copy for your father is not a problem. Copies for your aunts and grannies wouldn't be a problem either. If you leave your account open so that the general public can buy copies, that's a problem.

[Nobilis]

I put a book up at Lulu just to see how it works, and to give people who've listened to my podcast a chance to get some of the stories they've listened to in print, if they want them.

The quality of the physical book is just fine. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it... but I paid more for the artist to do the cover than I did to Lulu to put the whole thing together. The resulting book is overpriced ($10 for a tiny paperback) but for the very small number of people who must have one, it's not that much.

[madmumbler]

I use Lulu all the time for my software tutorials. I sell both electronic and printed versions through them. I haven't pulled ISBN numbers on them simply because they're so niche and right now, I'm not trying to market them more widely. (Zen Cart and embroidery tutorials.) I've also published another niche book with them about spina bifida, and a cookbook. I was happy with the print quality of all the books. I did the covers myself. I'm especially proud of the cover on my large Zen Cart book that's available in a printed version.

Print quality was good, especially considering I had graphics embedded in the text and used highlighting for some emphasis.

Editing - I spent years writing and editing news copy, plus my husband is a former newspaper reporter and editor. I'm as susceptible to typos and goofs as the next person, but I always thoroughly edit and have the skills and resources to edit my mss as well as have others take a look at it. Let's face it, there are plenty of "good" writers out there who need a second and third set of "outside eyes" on their ms before it sees the light of day, yet fail to do this before self-publishing. Even simply running a ms through a peer review crit list, like the IWW (I'm a member) can greatly improve a ms.

Unfortunately, many people who self-publish DON'T do this and think they're the greatest thing since electric typewriters. I've seen great stuff on Lulu. I've also seen ghastly stuff, including morons who think ALL CAPS is a great idea because they're too lazy to engage the shift key only as required. Then they wonder why they can't sell anything.

Another issue -- previews and blurbs that are rife with typos and other problems.

Lulu helps supplement my income by allowing me to offer printed tutorials. Now, if someone wants to try to get rich or be a bestselling author with fiction, that's another matter. I'm dealing with a specialty, non-fiction niche, highly targeted to a specific audience. For my fiction, I'm not self-publishing.

Well, I take that back, I have a collection of short stories I want to self-publish, but I'm holding off doing that until after my first book comes out with Amira. Then I'll have an audience base to build from at that point.

Lulu CAN be a great place for those who want to self-publish for whatever reason. However, be advised if you do that you will have a huge amount of legwork ahead of you in terms of self-promotions, marketing, etc. In the future, I plan on also releasing some of my tutorials with Amazon.com's ... *brain fart* Create Space? service. But I haven't had time to figure out their templating system, and I know I'll have to reformat my manuscripts (a major pain, due to the graphics) to do so.

FWIW,

[Montage]

I started out using Lulu as a way to distribute a draft to my beta readers -- it was cheaper than Kinkos and gave them the feel of a real book in their hands, which was a good thing for younger readers. As things went on, and I received requests for the book from family and friends, I ended up going to an Art Director friend of mine for a book cover design, and I ultimately updated the content with the final ms.

I've now purchased an ISBN and global distribution from Lulu and I'm happy with the results -- i'm on amazon, B&N and about twenty various online sites... but yes, the marketing is in my hands. I'm still trying to land another agent for this particular book (my first one didn't work out) and it's caught the interest of a few publishers. I guess my thought is that if it builds a "self published" buzz that gets around, all the better. I don't think any major house is going to feel that a few hundred copies of a POD is a threat.

[Keith]

Lulu is, as far as my one opinion is concerned, an excellent source as being a vett for any serious writer. I stumbled on them after having serious issues with two other supposed legitimate publishers, PA and Bruce Cook Publ. What I use them for is a printer, period, and I will say this, if you are serious about submitting your BEST manuscript, print it through Lulu first. It is extremely cheap, 3 cents a page, and a buck-fifty to two bucks for the covers. You will absolutely see your mistakes when you get the first copy of the book and you can change them with a click of the mouse and reprint it for the same 3 cents a page. Also, you can change your manuscript as you read the pdf on Lulu by clicking onto your computers' copy and do the changes as you catch them, or caught them by the printed copy in your hands. It is easy and cheap and you do not have to sell them through Lulu or anyone else. You can purchase an ISBN but unless you feel the need, as I did with Bruce Cook as he threatened me that he "owned" the rights because I allowed him to publish a manuscript, which he turned into a book, through Lulu, and post it on his website; that's how I found them.

My advice to any serious writer is use them but only for your private vetting. Don't purchase an ISBN or sell them yourself, just vett them until they're ready to submit to a legitimate publisher or agent. You will not regret it. I also stumbled on someone on an Absolute Write thread, recently, who said he was a printer and offered that service; I offered to use him if he could beat Lulu's price and I haven't heard back from him and don't expect to. Just please remember that I advise any writer reading this to use them only as a printer to better vett your manuscripts, only, I have not found a better way to vett them myself but if someone has please let me know because I don't believe there is a better way.

Kind Regards,

Keith

[Williebee]

I met some folks from Lulu at the National Education and Computing Conference in San Antonio this week. They said that, right now, Lulu is giving away ISBN numbers.

Not sure how long this lasts.

[Keith]

WillieBee,

That may be true but an ISBN is only like twenty or thirty bucks anyway; they only offer you anything free, as any business in a free-market society does, in an effort to make (more) money off you because you will tend to purchase more printed copies if an ISBN is attached to your book. Why purchase an ISBN when you don't know if your book is ready yet? Once you purchase an ISBN, as I did for one of my two published books, I quickly found out that in order to make changes it would cost me, a lot more of my time and more money, as you have to purchase another ISBN. I'm telling anyone who has an ear to hear that one of the worst feelings is to have a book published and you then see it in print full of mistakes. You can blame the publisher and copywriter only so much, as, after all, YOU did write it.

Kind Regards,

Keith

[James D. Macdonald]

Rather than run through a large number of printed-and-bound copies for copyediting and proofreading, why not just reformat the text (say, to single-space, two column, Times Roman) and print it on your home printer? You get the same effect of seeing it in a different format, without the delay.

(I do recommend doing most -- if not all -- of your editing in hard copy.)

[blacbird]

Lulu is, as far as my one opinion is concerned, an excellent source as being a vett for any serious writer. I stumbled on them after having serious issues with two other supposed legitimate publishers, PA and Bruce Cook Publ. What I use them for is a printer, period, and I will say this, if you are serious about submitting your BEST manuscript, print it through Lulu first. It is extremely cheap, 3 cents a page, and a buck-fifty to two bucks for the covers. You will absolutely see your mistakes when you get the first copy of the book and you can change them with a click of the mouse and reprint it for the same 3 cents a page.

Echo all of this, especially the Lulu as a printer part. It's really the core of what they do. The rest of their services are add-ons.

And, as Keith undoubtedly now knows, PA is [b]not[/i] a "legitimate" publisher. We have entire forums devoted to this.

caw

[Bo Sullivan]

Hi,

I have quite a few books on Lulu and I am using the free download mode to try to build up a readership so that when my big novel comes along I might have a readership and my name might already be known. I don't know if this is the right route to go, but what I write is historical niche material, (Elizabethan and Victorian history), and therefore it might not be of interest to everyone. I can't think of a better way to try to find readers for my work without the benefit of advertising, which I can't afford at present.

Barbara

[Keith]

James,

Good point and here's the answer, it is much, MUCH cheaper on Lulu AND it gives you the feel of a final copy, which it only is if you want it to be. The cost in printer ink is, believe me, more than 3 cents a page AND going through the printing (publishing) process is something you will absolutely have to go through when ANY publisher, that I am aware of, decides to take your story on.

Duped,

Whatever works for you, I say go for it.

Kind Regards,

Keith

[blacbird]

(I do recommend doing most -- if not all -- of your editing in hard copy.)

Been addressed in other threads, but worth seconding, for emphasis.

caw

[Fiat Lux]

I don't know much about POD publishing, but a retired woman in my writer's group wrote a book of poetry and had it published by Lulu, just to give to her family members and friends. She'd self published other books previously with other outfits and she said it was a great experience with Lulu. She's very happy with how the book came out, the fees charged, etc. I know she would recommend it, if you're not looking to make money on it.

[Promthanius]

Firstly, does anyone know something about Lulu? I took the toure and all that on the website, but it looks like I really can't see what they do for you unless you have a finished manuscript. Sadly, my laptop was stolen about 5 weeks ago and nothing has been recovered so all my writing from when I was little (about 8 years worth of writing) is gone and I have nothing to submit. So, what about Lulu? Can you do cover design? Editing? Hardback? I'll do some looking on my own, but I thought I'd ask the gods on Olympus too. ;-)

[veinglory]

There is information on this in the sub-forum a little further down on self-publishing.

They do not edit, the will produce hardbacks, they do not provide cover art except a few generic options.

[Inspiewriter]

A publisher I worked with used Lulu as their printer, and the books looked great. Of course the publisher did the editing and designed the covers, etc., but still the quality of the books was very good.

[Pagey's_Girl]

One writing group I belong to self-pubbed some of our stories through Lulu as a fundraiser to offest web hosting costs. We basically just needed someone to print up and bind the collections and they provided a quality product for the money. We were quite pleased with them.

[SummerAuthor]

I wrote a YA book that has been rejected by pretty much every agent or publisher (unless they wanted to charge me a fee to represent me) and one of my students (that loved my book) told me about lulu.com. I looked into it and it seems pretty legit, but what does everyone think?

I really want to get my book out there- but will it cost me a ton to get it sold online- Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc...

Will book stores accept lulu books?

Thanks!

[TheRightEyedDeer]

Summer, if you want to see your book in print and are happy to just sell copies to friends/family, Lulu will do a great job. Large/chain bookstores will not stock Lulu books because a) it costs them more to buy (no discount like they get from mainstream publishers) and b) Lulu books cannot be returned for credit.

[MickRooney]

I wrote a YA book that has been rejected by pretty much every agent or publisher (unless they wanted to charge me a fee to represent me)

A 'YA' book?? what is that firstly?

If it has been rejected by every agent or publisher you have submitted it to, then either you are submitting to the wrong kind of agents and publishers for your kind of work, or the manuscript needs more work to reach a publishable standard or market.

one of my students (that loved my book) told me about lulu.com. I looked into it and it seems pretty legit, but what does everyone think?

I really want to get my book out there- but will it cost me a ton to get it sold online- Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc...

Will book stores accept lulu books?

Thanks!

Yes, Lulu is 'legit'. It is used by thousands and thousands of people worldwide every year to self publishing everything from family memoirs and album photo keepsakes, to political and scientific manifestos, to how to cook, build your own boat and the next great american novel. If you have any commercial aspirations, then Lulu or any other POD service company are not the avenue to pursue.

Forget all these guys above who have published with Lulu; what exactly is it that 'SummerAuthor' wants for their book? I'm already worried that the information you're getting is coming from the very ones you are teaching.

Sit down and decide what it is you want from publishing a book. I suspect you want to extent your tutoring role into a wider field.

[Marva]

I wrote a YA book that has been rejected by pretty much every agent or publisher (unless they wanted to charge me a fee to represent me) and one of my students (that loved my book) told me about lulu.com. I looked into it and it seems pretty legit, but what does everyone think?

I really want to get my book out there- but will it cost me a ton to get it sold online- Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc...

Will book stores accept lulu books?

Thanks!

Bookstores? No.

Amazon and B&N? Yes.

However, if you'd be happy just to be on Amazon, I'd recommend CreateSpace (Amazon's POD), BookSurge (Amazon's POD), or LightningSource(Lulu's POD). But, it's a little complicated to tell you what you have to do. You might be best using Amazon, which does have good tools to help you create your interior files and cover design.

Wherever you go, buy your own ISBN.

[Cyia]

I wrote a YA book that has been rejected by pretty much every agent or publisher (unless they wanted to charge me a fee to represent me) and one of my students (that loved my book) told me about lulu.com. I looked into it and it seems pretty legit, but what does everyone think?

I really want to get my book out there- but will it cost me a ton to get it sold online- Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc...

Will book stores accept lulu books?

Thanks!

Before you go the POD route and kill your chances of having it actually published, maybe you should post your query and/or a few pages in Share Your Work to see if your problem is presentation. If you queried it as a "YA book", I would imagine the query needs polish.

It's Young Adult romance, Young adult mystery. Paranormal Young Adult, something like that. Never just YA book.

You need unbiased eyes that aren't related to you by blood or GPA to give an honest impression.

[SummerAuthor]

Cool, thanks for the replies everyone. It's YA Action-Adventure. After reading this entire thread, I think I'm just going to put it on the shelf for a while and maybe if I ever get published down the line, I'll try and get this one published.

[CaoPaux]

FYI - Lulu has bought a passel of domain names from vanity anthology mill Watermark Media. These domains include poetry.com, poets.com, poem.com, and picture.com.

Here's Writer Beware's blog about the acquisition: http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2009/04/victoria-strauss-lulu-acquires.html

[Adam]

Quick question:

I'm in the process of writing an Urban Fantasy novella and am looking to turn it into an ebook. Given the length of the work (40k), seeking a conventional publisher would be futile. :)

Is Lulu the best place to use?

It seems to be one of the better companies.

[Eriador117]

My husband and I both used Lulu for some of my books that had gone out of print and had the rights reverted back to me and for a non-fiction travel book the we co-authored.

The non-fiction book is doing a lot better; it averages around 4-5 copies a month and has been steadily doing that since it came out. The fiction books are not doing so well, but maybe that's because I'm not very good at promotion, LOL!

Anyway, with Lulu, they've consistently paid the royalites every month through Paypal; we like the quality of the books. If you want to go their distriubtion route rather than just have the book on their website, the cost per book goes up significantly if you want to make a profit (you have to take into account fees to bookshops/amazon etc. which can be as much as 65%) and once the price goes up by that much, you can say goodbye to a lot of buyers. For example, our non-fiction book costs £12.85 (or something like that on amazon) and we get just over a £1 in royalty. Ther rest goes on fees etc. People are very surprised when we tell them how little of the cover price we actually get ;) They think the author gets the whole £12.85, if only!

If you don't think your book will do well with a traditional publisher, have you thought of an e-publisher? I have a short story collection with Double Dragon and my book did really well with them even though it was shorter than a standard novel.

I've been happy with Lulu and what they said they did, they did. They didn't pretend to be a publisher or that your books would end up on the shelves of your local bookshop. It's a printer really and if you're happy to design your own cover, layout etc. , then it might be suitable. But everyone has different needs and what they want.

Oh, misread your post. You were thinking of having it as an ebook? Then you have a lot of choice, a lot of ebook publishers accept books from any length from short stories and upwards, you could give them a try before deciding on self-publishing through Lulu or someone.

take care,
Annette

[Adam]

Thanks for the info, Annette! :)

[Eriador117]

You're welcome :)

[AdamRothstein]

I know all about the stigma surrounding self publishing, but a friend of mine turned me onto a site called "lulu.com". Does anyone know if this is legit? It seems too good to be true. The thing is, I haven't submitted to publishers yet (still trying to find an agent), so I don't think self publishing is the right move for me at the moment, but perhaps for the future.

Thanks guys!

[veinglory]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111541

[kullervo]

I know all about the stigma surrounding self publishing, but a friend of mine turned me onto a site called "lulu.com". Does anyone know if this is legit? It seems too good to be true. The thing is, I haven't submitted to publishers yet (still trying to find an agent), so I don't think self publishing is the right move for me at the moment, but perhaps for the future.

Thanks guys!

Unless you have a specific, small audience in mind and you know how to reach them (think of a book of Aunt Tilly's recipes or your family history), self-publishing is the wrong choice. If you are hoping to reach a wide audience, for instance you have written a novel, keep hunting for an agent and get to work on your next book.

Lulu is a legit vanity press (no, I do not wish to engage in a vanity press vs. self-publishing argument). I'm not sure how they qualify for "too good to be true." People send them manuscripts, they print them in book form for money, and send the books to the author. They do not make any quality judgments. They will print books for anybody with a valid credit card. Which is why most self-publishing sales are to the authors and the authors' family and friends.

Want to sell books to strangers in bookstores? Don't go with self-publishing.

[CaoPaux]

Lulu recently partnered with http://weread.com/. Authors have complained about reviews being transfered from their storefronts to WeRead and/or being lost in the transistion.

[StephenJSweeney]

I've noticed in the last few days that Lulu seem to have deleted their user forums.

Anyone here know what is going on?

I have a sneaking suspicion that Lulu might be making ready to take the company in some sort of really strange direction.

[CaoPaux]

They're transferring the forums to a new format. Assuming success, it'll be a couple more days before it shakes out.

[veinglory]

The new forums are up. I doubt I will be using them. Not friendly for slower connections, and they deleted some of the subforums I liked.

[CaoPaux]

For the brave, here's the new forum link: https://support.lulu.com/Browse.jsp?id=8a8a8a181be60b4f011be61a45360047

[veinglory]

...and it's down.

I do wonder why they dumped a normal forum set up for something clunkier and less robust. The Lulu forum was rather good before the "improved" it.

[brainstorm77]

Why is Lulu selling books by other publishers?

[CACTUSWENDY]

Ah...you might want to expand on the question? :Shrug:

[Julie Worth]

Why is Lulu selling books by other publishers?

Lulu is more of an interface between the author (or publisher) and POD printers.

[benbradley]

Because Lulu makes money doing so?

[brainstorm77]

I went on LuLu looking for books by Awer's. And I came across books for sale in their book section by some other publishers. For example: Zombie Blondes by Brian James published by Square Fish/Macmillan.

[brainstorm77]

Because Lulu makes money doing so?

Yes, indeed. But is this something new? I've never noticed it before.

[veinglory]

To make money.

A better question might be: why did Lulu disable and never replace the ability to specifically search for Lulu books?

[ResearchGuy]

Why is Lulu selling books by other publishers?
To make money.

The plan was discussed by HQ staff in a meeting I attended there a year ago.

--Ken

[brainstorm77]

A better question might be: why did Lulu disable and never replace the ability to specifically search for Lulu books?

It certainly makes it difficult.

[brainstorm77]

To make money.

The plan was discussed by HQ staff in a meeting I attended there a year ago.

--Ken

It's the first I knew about it. But it was sometime since I last visited the Lulu site.

Well, you learn something new everyday :)

[azbikergirl]

Lulu is a printer, not a publisher. Publishers (such as authors who self-publish) can use Lulu to print and distribute their books. Some self-published authors choose to create an imprint name so that their books appear to come from a publishing company.

[veinglory]

Um, true--who said otherwise? I think that by page six we are getting more into the details.....

[ResearchGuy]

Lulu is a printer, not a publisher. . . . .
It is also a (subsidy, fee-for-service) publisher, selling books with its own ISBNs. And it is not a printer, but rather a front-end to printers (POD and offset).

--Ken

[Mr.L.A.Kegbrat]

I just discovered how Lulu rips writers off and it's worse than PublishAmerica.

I sold 10 books through distribution that I didn't even know about.

I was killing time on amazon.com and happened to click on my book--Georgia Before People: Land of the saber-tooths, mastodons, vampire bats, and other strange creatures.

There was another book on the bottom of the page under the heading "People who have bought your book, also bought this book."

Now, at first I thought this was BS--amazon was just making this up to sell books.

I went to my Lulu account a few days later out of curiosity. It did say 10 books were sold (not including the ones I bought and sold) for a total creator revenue of $13.73.

I went through the question and answer section and discovered that Lulu will not send money until creator revenue exceeds $20. I had no idea that they did this. That means 14 of my books could sell, and I would get nothing, while Lulu makes probably about $70 (off the top of my head, assuming their cost and profit). I have to have 15 books sold before they send money to me...I could sell 29 books, they would make another $70 minus what they paid me for the first 15, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure this would hold up in court. There's no contract or anything.

That's worse than PublishAmerica. At least they send money no matter how few books are sold.

Anyway, my promotional plan is working. My promotional plan is simply a blog-- http://markgelbart.wordpress.com

I write about subject matter related to my book. Lots of people are reading my blog and getting interested enough to purchase my book (it has had over 4,000 views in less than a year). And I didn't even realize it was working.

[CaoPaux]

The contract is the Membership Agreement which you acknowledge when you register for an account. To whit: http://www.lulu.com/about/member_agreement.php#publishing

And PA's threshold is $50, IIRC.

[veinglory]

I don't see that doing exactly what their contract says they will do it a 'rip off'.

[JulieB]

This is not unusual. I sell my photography online, and the site I use won't send a check until I've earned $50. And yes, I was aware of that when I signed up.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . Lulu will not send money until creator revenue exceeds $20.. . .
Set up payment to your PayPal account. They've sent me PayPal payments of as little as six dollars and change. The cost of sending nickle-and-dime checks would be prohibitive, of course.

--Ken

[Stacia Kane]

Set up payment to your PayPal account. They've sent me PayPal payments of as little as six dollars and change. The cost of sending nickle-and-dime checks would be prohibitive, of course.

--Ken


Ditto. I've gotten small payments into my Paypal account. Happens all the time.


And don't forget Amazon is taking a big chunk of the cover price for itself before Lulu gets any money, too.

[Anne Lyle]

I just discovered how Lulu rips writers off and it's worse than PublishAmerica.
...
I went through the question and answer section and discovered that Lulu will not send money until creator revenue exceeds $20.

Yeah, this is normal. I have a chapter out in an undergraduate science textbook, and I will probably never see any royalties on it, because it is on a highly specialised topic and has thus sold too few copies to reach the minimum payment threshold.

You think writing fiction pays badly? You should try academic publishing. One is expected to do it for the prestige alone...

[Filigree]

Or get into the POD poster publishing business. I've $6 in royalties for the last 2 years, because my designs haven't sold enough to hit the company's $20 limit.

To be fair, the paperwork alone for such a small check would be ridiculous. I'll
just sell them some more, and increase my base sales percentages.

Filigree

[James D. Macdonald]

The pertinent section from the contract:

If you choose to receive your creator revenue via paper check, you will be paid on a quarterly basis. Specifically, no later than 45 days following the end of the calendar quarter, Lulu will make a good faith effort to pay you the creator revenue that accrued during that quarter, using the contact information in our records. If Lulu owes you less than $20 for Content sales within a given quarter, we reserve the right, at our discretion, to roll your revenue forward to the following quarter until $20 is reached.
If you choose to receive your creator revenue via PayPal, you will be paid on a monthly basis. Specifically, no later than 31 days after the end of a calendar month Lulu will make a good faith effort to pay you the creator revenue that accrued during that month, using the contact information in our records. If Lulu owes you less than $5 for Content sales within a given month, we reserve the right, at our discretion, to roll your revenue forward to the following month until $5 is reached. It is your responsibility to update your contact information if it changes. If your account is inactive or terminated and we are unable to contact you using the contact information provided, we may also, at our discretion, charge a termination fee equal to the amount of unpaid creator revenue to cover administrative costs.


http://www.lulu.com/about/member_agreement.php#publishing


My last payment from Lulu (on the 15 of December) was for $5.13.

As for being worse than PublishAmerica: You can cancel at any time, and they don't take any rights.

[Mr.L.A.Kegbrat]

PA's threshold isn't $50.

I've received checks from them for $1.10.

Setting up a pay pal account is too much trouble for $13.63.

I may have read about the $20 threshold but it just didn't sink in.

Anyway, I was surprised that strangers were buying my books. I thought I'd have to sell each one individually from people who contact me.

Ann,

My Lulu book is non-fiction. While not an academic book, it's about a subject mostly of interest to academics. (For example what species of rodents lived in southern Georgia 20,000 years ago.)

[BenPanced]

PA's threshold isn't $50.

I've received checks from them for $1.10.
The $50 threshold is a recent development, probably within the last 6 months or so. Anybody new who's signed a contract with them will be dealing with this.
Setting up a pay pal account is too much trouble for $13.63.
Srsly?

[veinglory]

If it is not worth your trouble to get a paypal account you might understand why it is not worth their trouble to draft and post a check.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . southern Georgia. . .
The U.S. State, or the former Soviet Republic?

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

The US State.

Folks who are interested in the troubles others have with Lulu might check this: http://www.google.com/search?q=lulu.com+scam

Meanwhile, Mr.L.A.Kegbrat (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=42336), I looked at your blog (because I'm interested in the subject of American pre-history, among other things) but I didn't see an obvious link to your book.

Specialized non-fiction is where self-publishing shines. I'm not at all surprised that strangers are buying it (albeit in small numbers).

BTW, we first heard about PA's $50 minumum in October of 2009. Earlier contracts won't have it.

BTW2, Amazon takes 65% of the cover price right off the top for everything they sell.

[euclid]

I'm not sure, this could well be the same source as Jim's. I found it when I googled Lulu. It looks like a horror story for Lulu authors.

http://www.myspace.com/stevenmarshallhorror/blog/496468771

[ResearchGuy]

I'm not sure, this could well be the same source as Jim's. I found it when I googled Lulu. It looks like a horror story for Lulu authors.

http://www.myspace.com/stevenmarshallhorror/blog/496468771
A quick look suggests a very mixed bag there (and occasionally mixed up).

But the inability to have files really deleted from Lulu's servers has been a sore point with me for years. I suppose it falls into the annoyance category, not really more than that, though.

--Ken

[Nick Blaze]

There's one person here on the board who had a poetry book published through lulu. I don't know if he's still around but I can link you to where he talks about lulu, if you'd like. (I was also a part of that discussion.)
That may have been me, as I do have a poetry book published through them. I have only good things to say about it, aside from marketing. The books printed look professional, but don't forget you have to make sure your book is formatted as perfectly and marketed as well as you can. If you don't market, as with all self publishing sites, you'll get no sales.

I know the world doesn't buy too many poetry books, but leaving it to sit for two years has resulted in no random sales. This is completely obvious and expected. One needs to market it and promote it. They do offer professional editing, marketing, and other such services. I have never and likely will never purchase one, as editing some books may cost up to $1,000.

Do not self publish, unless you know you're great at marketing. Send out press releases, scheduling book signings when people buy it, get interviews posted everywhere, carry your book with you and promote on the streets, or whatever. But otherwise, go for agents and publishing companies.

[the bunny hugger]

I still have to say I have pretty much lost faith with Lulu mainly because mis-shipping has become chronic (e.g. book damaged, wrong book, book never arrives) and they don't give refunds for non-delivery when you use their standard shipping method.

[ResearchGuy]

I still have to say I have pretty much lost faith with Lulu mainly because mis-shipping has become chronic (e.g. book damaged, wrong book, book never arrives) and they don't give refunds for non-delivery when you use their standard shipping method.
The shipping charges are astronomical. I've lost count of the number of orders I cancelled when I saw how much shipping would add to the total.

--Ken

[the bunny hugger]

The keep saying they are looking for a new shipping privider, but whatever priocess they used to move to the one they use now is... flawed, would be the polite way to phrase it.

[ResearchGuy]

The keep saying they are looking for a new shipping privider, but whatever priocess they used to move to the one they use now is... flawed, would be the polite way to phrase it.
There are not a lot of choices. USPS (which they make little or no use of now), UPS (which they dropped quite some time ago, I believe), and FedEx (which is the latest I know of). They inflate the charges something fierce, although their overpackaging (sometimes of surprising proportions) might play a role. An occasional free shipping offer (albeit limited) can help if one's timing is right, but using it can be tricky.

--Ken

[nkkingston]

I can't remember what I was ordering (CD and a book), but the shipping hit £60. I think it was the CD, since that would have come from the US, but even though I knew the people involved personally I simply couldn't afford to pay 10 times the cost of the items to have them shipped to the UK.

[Mom]

Would it ever make sense to use Lulu just for copyediting services, without the intention of publishing through them? Is it allowed? Does anyone do that?

[Cyia]

I knew that vanity titles usually perform poorly, with the bulk of sales going to the author and relatives/friends, but I'd always heard the tally was in the double or triple digits. However:

Lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com/) founder Bob Young admits that the average Lulu published book has a print run of just two copies. ( LINK (http://selfpublishingresources.com/how-authors-are-misled-into-thinking-they%E2%80%99ve-self-published-when-they-haven%E2%80%99t/) )

The linked article doesn't provide a source article for that quote or count, so I'm wondering if anyone else has heard the same.

[brainstorm77]

Would it ever make sense to use Lulu just for copyediting services, without the intention of publishing through them? Is it allowed? Does anyone do that?

Be wary of any editing service. There have been so many horror stories that have come across AW alone. There are some places that have a good reputation. Like anything, it's buyer beware.

From what I understand(I could be wrong), the companies offering these services are set up as vendors with Lulu. So, I'd say yes to your question. An email to any you are interested in should solve your questions, provided they have contact information.

[scope]

I haven't heard anything. However, although the average number of two copies doesn't shock me, I would be shocked if Bob Young admitted same.

[thothguard51]

Like you, I have read number a lot higher than those quoted above. Still, if this is the founder of Lulu, then I assume he knows what he is talking about. If this quote is truly from him...

Just goes to show how hard promoting self published novels are, especially overpriced PoD work...

[veinglory]

I suspect two would be per annum, but its hard to say.

[MaryMumsy]

The quote comes from a 2007 interview.

http://www.abctales.com/lulu-founder-bob-young-talks-abctales

I traced it back from an article on sfwa

I wonder if it is splitting hairs to differentiate between print runs and sales? A single two book print run doesn't mean that's all the copies sold. They may be ordered multiple times

MM

[Medievalist]

I knew that vanity titles usually perform poorly, with the bulk of sales going to the author and relatives/friends, but I'd always heard the tally was in the double or triple digits.

Keep in mind how very often people use Lulu to publish things that they only need one or two copies of--I know lots of people who have made a family recipe book for two siblings, or a manual that only two people need copies of, etc.

[scope]

Within the last six months I read somewhere (don't remember where) that the on average a SP'ed paper book (vanity and other forms) will sell about 25 copies in total. While I can't speak to the truth of this statement, I don't find it unreal.

[Phaeal]

Some people use Lulu just to get a printed copy or two for their own enjoyment. Plus I've known a few writers who like to edit in the printed copy -- seeing a WIP in "real book" form seems to make errors and problems jump out at them.

[ResearchGuy]

Would it ever make sense to use Lulu just for copyediting services, without the intention of publishing through them? Is it allowed? Does anyone do that?
I suspect that you would be paying Lulu's markup on top of the fee for actual services.

BTW, a self-publishing guru I know in this area recommends hiring a college kid to edit for you, to save money. Judging from the sloppy writing and errors in her own books, BAD idea.

--Ken

[JulieB]

BTW, a self-publishing guru I know in this area recommends hiring a college kid to edit for you, to save money. Judging from the sloppy writing and errors in her own books, BAD idea.


Bad idea. *slap* bad, bad idea! Down, idea. Stop that!

Seriously, I've heard tales from my son about the English papers he's had to peer edit. ZOMG! (I wouldn't trust him to do a pro job of editing, and neither would he!)

[Jamesaritchie]

From what I've read, discounting Lulu because they do have a lot of one shot sales, it's about one hundred books in the first year, primarily to friends and family. It goes downhill from there.

[frimble3]

Some people use Lulu just to get a printed copy or two for their own enjoyment. Plus I've known a few writers who like to edit in the printed copy -- seeing a WIP in "real book" form seems to make errors and problems jump out at them. I've seen that suggested on AW often enough that I've sometimes wondered how Lulu feels about it. Presumably they're making enough profit off those 'copy or two' books to survive, so more power to them. I have a couple of little projects that no-one's going to buy, but would be nice to have in 'proper' book form.

[skylark]

Keep in mind how very often people use Lulu to publish things that they only need one or two copies of--I know lots of people who have made a family recipe book for two siblings, or a manual that only two people need copies of, etc.

The company I work for has just used lulu to make hardcopies available of a couple of manuals which were previously only available in electronic form. So far the only sales have been the one we bought of each to check quality.

We may never sell any at all to anyone else, but even if we don't, the fact the manual's now available in online bookstores is another way for people come across the product itself.

[ResearchGuy]

I've seen that suggested on AW often enough that I've sometimes wondered how Lulu feels about it. Presumably they're making enough profit off those 'copy or two' books to survive, so more power to them. I have a couple of little projects that no-one's going to buy, but would be nice to have in 'proper' book form.
A Lulu exec told me several years ago that their (then) top seller, a book on prostate cancer, had sold 15,000 copies. Yes, fifteen thousand.

They offer and heavily promote a lot of add-on services, which may be their bread-and-butter these days.

--Ken