Vancouver YVR Taser Incident

[ghost]

This is horrific.
For those who don't know.
The last minutes of Robert Dziekanski's life were captured on video after a Taser blast. Watch the video and decide for yourself if police had no alternatives.

This is a horrible video. The man died.

There are a few facts to go with it. 1. The man had been detained at the airport for fourteen hours without a translator. He didn't speak a word of English. 2. His mother was outside the gate the whole time, asking about her son. No one bothered to help her. She could have at least translated for him. 3. All four officers were trained in CPR, yet not a single one did anything. 4. One of the officers kept his foot on the mans throat as a way of pinning him to the ground.

http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217129
I'm sorry this is a link to another forum which has the link. It's the only full version of the video I could find.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I'm actually going to wait for the investigation before passing judgement. There's a few things here that don't sound right.

1) WHY was he detained for 14 hours? Was there a problem with his immigration visa? And, frankly, he should have had at least a passing understanding of English when travelling to a country where English/French are the official languages. They were detaining him for more than just his inability to speak English.

2) I saw the video on Headline News - tossing a chair around and being aggressive doesn't do much to make you more likable to the employees or the police. In fact, in most countries if you're charged by a bunch of uniformed men, you usually drop to your knees and wait for them to take charge. He wasn't helping the situation much by tossing chairs around and breaking glass.

3) The lack of medical help is disturbing - but, again, why was he in this situation to start with? There are plenty of cases where a taser does not kill people - why was it lethal in this situation? Was there a medical condition that made it worse?

again, I'll wait for the investigation before passing judgement - but it's always easy to put the blame on the authorities when they were just doing their job. There must have been a reason why he was detained and it sure didn't help when he started breaking up chairs.

*shrugs*

[Jean Marie]

Lots of people go to visit other countries and don't speak the language of said country. That doesn't have anything to do w/ anything. Just sayin'.

His actions aren't explainable, however.

An officer's foot on his throat's interesting. Don't think that's in any particular manual.

1st responders are required to know CPR.

Obviously, there's a pre-existing medical condition.

Apparently, there's more to this than what meets the eye. There usually is.

[ghost]

Ok, I need to make a correction in my origional post. Unfortuantly there are a lot of conflicting media sources floating around.

According to the Vancouver Province the man had cleared customs and was free to leave. However, he apparently got lost in the airport and was wandering around. He was frightened. His mother had been waiting for him for several hours and finally left when no one was able to locate him.

As for the English comment...I went to Italy a few months ago. I spoke no Italian. Does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to visit there? That's a terrible comment to make. And for the record, more people speak Cantonese and Manderin in Vancouver than French or English.

[reigningcatsndogs]

Ok, I need to make a correction in my origional post. Unfortuantly there are a lot of conflicting media sources floating around.

According to the Vancouver Province the man had cleared customs and was free to leave. However, he apparently got lost in the airport and was wandering around. He was frightened. His mother had been waiting for him for several hours and finally left when no one was able to locate him.

As for the English comment...I went to Italy a few months ago. I spoke no Italian. Does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to visit there? That's a terrible comment to make. And for the record, more people speak Cantonese and Manderin in Vancouver than French or English.

The CBC is reporting that he had passed customs. His mother had told him to wait for her by the baggage claim. The baggage claim for international flights is inside the customs area, so the mother couldn't go in there to get him. There are a billion questions to ask about this tragedy, but I don't think we're anywhere near knowing enough to point fingers. There is video footage of the guy out of control, throwing chairs and smashing computers. The footage yesterday is from one angle, somewhat obstructed, and taken from a distance with a cell phone.

why did customs not help the man? He was there for hours. They must have noticed him.
Where was airport security? The mother was looking for help, the son was looking for help, so why didn't they step in and do something?
Were the police over-zealous, or careless or negligent? We can't hear what is happening on the video. We weren't there.
What about autopsy/toxicology reports? Was the man on drugs? Did he have a pre-existing medical condition?

It definitely needs to be looked into, but I don't think there's near enough information out there to be pointing any fingers yet. Just my opinion.

[blacbird]

why did customs not help the man?

Simplest and most universal of answers: "Not my job."

caw

[Sheryl Nantus]

As for the English comment...I went to Italy a few months ago. I spoke no Italian. Does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to visit there? That's a terrible comment to make. And for the record, more people speak Cantonese and Manderin in Vancouver than French or English.

no, but if you start yelling and screaming and tossing chairs and computers around, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy.

I have no idea how people visit countries without even a guidebook. Why expect *them* to provide you with a translator? Why isn't it incumbent upon YOU, the visitor, to at least attempt to understand the language enough to get along?

as far as the rest of the story goes - I think there's a lot more here than meets the eye. It's always easy to bash the police, but in this case they may have actually been doing their jobs - the investigation will show who is at fault, if anyone.

[ghost]

[quote=Sheryl Nantus;1815337]no, but if you start yelling and screaming and tossing chairs and computers around, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy.
quote]


I agree with you one hundred percent.

However, the man was terrified and people often behave unusually when they feel threatened and scared. When an animal is terrified it often attacks. Why should people be considered different?

I don't believe in bashing the police either. I think the majority of them are decent, hard working people.

But the facts speak for themselves. All this can be heard and seen in the nine minute video.

1. Before the police even accessed the situation one of them said 'are we going to taser him' and the other replied 'yes'.
2. When they approached the man, he held up his hands and turned around to face the glass wall. The officer tasered him in the back.
3. He fell to the ground, screaming and twitching. He was tasered two more times.
4. When it was evident that he had stopped breathing, none of the officers checked to see if he was alright. In fact, it was a woman who bent down to check his pulse. None of the officers gave him CPR although they were all trained to do so.

And yes, I agree there are two sides (sometimes three :) ) to every story. I'm looking forward to seeing how these events unfold.

[Jean Marie]

Tasering someone more than once is slightly overkill, literally.

The guy was frightened, patently so. As has been pointed out, fear makes you do weird things, especially when you don't know the language and no one's stepping in to offer assistance. And that would be the individuals who are supposed to help.

You don't taser someone in the back, when they're in the position of surrender. DUH!

How many times do you taser someone on the ground...something smells out of line.

Ensuing investigation ought to be interesting, at the very least.

Visiting other countries w/o knowing the language, isn't mandatory. In this situation, he was visiting his mother. Do we know that his mother, in fact speaks English. Guessing that visiting his mother, more than likely makes it ok that he did not know English.

[Chumplet]

I saw the video, it didn't look like it was in the back. Also, I didn't see anyone step on him with their foot, but I think he may have been held down with a knee.

It's so sad. He looked so frightened and disoriented. You'd think somebody could translate Polish in an international airport. I was at that airport twice and it's rather small and intimate. Not a particularly frightening place.

[Jean Marie]

I saw the video, it didn't look like it was in the back. Also, I didn't see anyone step on him with their foot, but I think he may have been held down with a knee.

It's so sad. He looked so frightened and disoriented. You'd think somebody could translate Polish in an international airport. I was at that airport twice and it's rather small and intimate. Not a particularly frightening place.
Putting either a foot or a knee on the neck is a really bad idea. That's where the airway is.

[reigningcatsndogs]

It looked like they put their knee into his back to hold him down, between his shoulder blades. His mother was on the other side of the door, trying to get to him. She could have translated. She said she wanted to. There seems to be so many ways this whole incident could have been avoided. It's very sad.

[reigningcatsndogs]

Tasering someone more than once is slightly overkill, literally.

The guy was frightened, patently so. As has been pointed out, fear makes you do weird things, especially when you don't know the language and no one's stepping in to offer assistance. And that would be the individuals who are supposed to help.

You don't taser someone in the back, when they're in the position of surrender. DUH!

How many times do you taser someone on the ground...something smells out of line.

Ensuing investigation ought to be interesting, at the very least.

Visiting other countries w/o knowing the language, isn't mandatory. In this situation, he was visiting his mother. Do we know that his mother, in fact speaks English. Guessing that visiting his mother, more than likely makes it ok that he did not know English.

When you see all the footage, it clearly shows he was tasered, and he started to fight again, and they tasered him again. The media is running with this like crazy, and are definitely spinning it. I'm not saying the cops are in the right, but rather I think there's a lot of issues to look at. The poor man was very scared.

The irony with the media is they show a five to ten second clip for the public to make up their minds, and in the same breath they condemn the police for making a decision on how to act in the actual situation in less than 28 seconds. In a cop's world, 28 seconds of debate, assessment and consideration could literally be a lifetime.

[ghost]

The irony with the media is they show a five to ten second clip for the public to make up their minds, and in the same breath they condemn the police for making a decision on how to act in the actual situation in less than 28 seconds. In a cop's world, 28 seconds of debate, assessment and consideration could literally be a lifetime.

Actually it was a nine minute tape and just about everyone I know has downloaded the entire thing. You can see the whole video in the link I provided or at any Vancouver news website.

It was on the news this morning. They've translated what he was saying when the police arrived. He was happy to see them. He thought they were going to help him.

[wordmonkey]

no, but if you start yelling and screaming and tossing chairs and computers around, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy.

Yeah.

I mean, who WOULDN'T be calm, rational and placid after 14 hours in an airport.

Oh, hang on, people leap out of cars, drag fellow motorists from their cars and beat them to death because had to sit in traffic for twenty minutes.

I've been tempted to throw a computer through the window and down to the bottom if the back yard, should I be tasered for that? Or should I be allowed to taser Bill Gates (because it's usually some Microsoft crap that's sent me to that dark dark place)?

But hey, he was just a Johnny Foreigner, right?

[Jean Marie]

You forgot to add that he didn't speak English.

[Jean Marie]

Actually it was a nine minute tape and just about everyone I know has downloaded the entire thing. You can see the whole video in the link I provided or at any Vancouver news website.

It was on the news this morning. They've translated what he was saying when the police arrived. He was happy to see them. He thought they were going to help him.
He expected a different kind of assistance, I'm guessing. Tasering probably doesn't come in the basic Canadian welcome packet.

An incredibly sad situation.

I'd still like to know why they didn't know CPR, a norm for first responders the world over.

[reigningcatsndogs]

Actually it was a nine minute tape and just about everyone I know has downloaded the entire thing. You can see the whole video in the link I provided or at any Vancouver news website.

It was on the news this morning. They've translated what he was saying when the police arrived. He was happy to see them. He thought they were going to help him.

I've watched the footage on the internet. On the news, they show the sound bite. I can't even begin to imagine what that man went through, and I'm not saying the cops were right in what they did. I'm just saying there are a lot of questions that need to be answered, and a lot of agencies who need to do some explaining, not just the police. My point would be that this should never happen again, and so it requires a look at what everyone's role was. For starters, why did they wait that many hours to call the police, waiting until it was just minutes before a large international flight was due to land?

[ghost]

I've watched the footage on the internet. On the news, they show the sound bite. I can't even begin to imagine what that man went through, and I'm not saying the cops were right in what they did. I'm just saying there are a lot of questions that need to be answered, and a lot of agencies who need to do some explaining, not just the police. My point would be that this should never happen again, and so it requires a look at what everyone's role was. For starters, why did they wait that many hours to call the police, waiting until it was just minutes before a large international flight was due to land?

Oh I am with you on that! How on earth did the airport security, personal staff, cleaners, in fact anyone who works there, not notice that the poor man was wandering around for more than ten hours??? I find it impossible to believe that no one noticed him.

Lets not forget that the mother was there for most of the time asking the airport for help in locating him.

Airports are supposed to be high security.