Word Count Ethics

[Shady Lane]

Hola

So. I just finished the first draft of this YA ms. Now, I'm obviously not querying it yet and it will definitely grow a bit in revisions, but let's just pretend for a minute....

Microsoft Word gives me almost 26,000 for the word count.

250 x #pages gives me 40,500.

Obviously, 40,000 is way more marketable than 26,000. So could I legally (you know what I mean) query this as a 40K ms?

It feels like cheating somehow...

[JoNightshade]

Since the word count feature is now so widespread, I think most people just assume that's what you're using. And yeah, if you know it's only 26, and you say it's 40... that would strike me as a little dishonest.

Sounds like you need some descriptions in between all that dialogue, Miss Lane. ;)

[Azure Skye]

I would go with Word since it seems that just about everybody and their brother uses it because as, Jo said, it might make you look a little sneaky or sumpin'.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Try making your paragraphs more than one sentence long. ;)

Loves ya, Ms. Shady.:e2flowers

[Shady Lane]

Since the word count feature is now so widespread, I think most people just assume that's what you're using. And yeah, if you know it's only 26, and you say it's 40... that would strike me as a little dishonest.

Sounds like you need some descriptions in between all that dialogue, Miss Lane. ;)

Try making your paragraphs more than one sentence long. ;)

Loves ya, Ms. Shady.:e2flowers

I need better friends.


(but I like this Miss Lane/Ms. Shady thing. I feel very authoritative.)

[ishtar'sgate]

Hola

So. I just finished the first draft of this YA ms. Now, I'm obviously not querying it yet and it will definitely grow a bit in revisions, but let's just pretend for a minute....

Microsoft Word gives me almost 26,000 for the word count.

250 x #pages gives me 40,500.

Obviously, 40,000 is way more marketable than 26,000. So could I legally (you know what I mean) query this as a 40K ms?

It feels like cheating somehow...
So, how long do you think you'll be able to fool them?:D
There's little point in marketing it at almost double the actual word count! What I can't figure out is how your guesstimate can be off by such a large margin or are you exaggerating for emphasis? In any case, be honest. It is what it is.
Linnea

[Shady Lane]

Not exaggerating for emphasis.

I honestly am not trying to be, uh, shady, here....I've heard people say the 250 X #pages is the preferred method. I DID NOT DREAM THIS.

[WendyNYC]

But, wait, I thought agents preferred the 250xpages formula because it was more accurate in terms of actual spacing.

Is this not the case?

[qdsb]

You're using a lot of reallylongwords in that one, aren't you? ;)

KIDDING!

I agree with the others. Use Word's word count.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Wasn't it pointed out here relatively recently that the pages x 250 count is for Times New Roman, and the pages x 200 count was for courier?

I vaguely recall being relieved by how much closer the latter method came to matching my word processor's wordcount feature.

ETA, Shady does have a short-paragraph style and lots of (excellent) dialogue, so it's not surprising to me that using pages x 250 would inflate her actual wordcount a great deal.

[Shady Lane]

But, wait, I thought agents preferred the 250xpages formula because it was more accurate in terms of actual spacing.

Is this not the case?

I need a neon sign pointed to this post.

Dev, 200 X pages would be 33,000...still better than what I got.

[RLSMiller]

But, wait, I thought agents preferred the 250xpages formula because it was more accurate in terms of actual spacing.

Is this not the case?

That's what I thought. The MS word count is a total waste of space in my opinion. I mean, it counts "a" the same as "antidisestablishmentarianism"... how can you rely on that to give you an accurate representation of book length?

[RLSMiller]

Wasn't it pointed out here relatively recently that the pages x 250 count is for Times New Roman, and the pages x 200 count was for courier?

I vaguely recall being relieved by how much closer the latter method came to matching my word processor's wordcount feature.

ETA, Shady does have a short-paragraph style and lots of (excellent) dialogue, so it's not surprising to me that using pages x 250 would inflate her actual wordcount a great deal.

It was pointed out, but it was pointed out wrongly. Courier has long been 250xPage count. TNR is more like 300xPage count.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I need a neon sign pointed to this post.

Dev, 200 X pages would be 33,000...still better than what I got.But that's because of your writing style, IMO. And that is going to give them a closer estimate for what to expect when they print the book.

[Shady Lane]

I've been called thick before, but this takes the cake...even for me. I don't understand. Why would you even dream of querying after the first draft? What if you get interest but you don't have anything to send them. I'm obviously missing something. You say you will have more words when you're done...does that mean you think you will get to the 40K? Why are you thinking about word count and query now? I'm lost. And you will only get away with it until they check the wordcount anyway. That takes about 2 seconds.

No way am I querying now. I was just curious, had the question on my mind, felt like asking now.

Might get to 40K. No clue. But then I'd have the same issue with 40 vs. 60 or whatever.

I make more sense now yes?

[Provrb1810meggy]

She doesn't plan on querying it until she's done revising, KTC.

ETA: Ah, Shady said it first!

[ORION]

The question that will not die...
My agent and editor both use "word" word count. I specifically asked them this question since it always comes up. They both said "word"

250 words a page actually only works if you like have ...250 words a page on average. Take a few pages and count- I bet you have considerably less and like the others have mentioned - probably have lots of dialogue and short paragraphs.
Again TNR 12 pt font.
I know a gadzillion people will come flying over here to claim a more accurate word count - the fact is - ya gotta be closer together than 26,000 and 40,000...
Bottom line is if you try to fool ANYONE- you will get nailed. It's really obvious when your manuscript is read-- just the fact that you're asking the question means you're uncomfortable with it. Have a beta reader read it and let you know if the story is light.

[ColoradoGuy]

Here's what Miss Snark said about it (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/02/very-last-word-about-word-count.html). It sums things up pretty well.

[Shady Lane]

Yes. I think so. I thought you were going to start querying and saying you had 40 in the hopes that that is what you would end up with. Now I gotcha...I think. I just went through this with the novel I just sent out. I wanted to make the font a nice 16 so it would look larger but then I thought the publisher is just a wee bit smarter than that. That word count button is just too accessible.

That's a little risky even for me. ;)

Orion--thanks. I know the 1st draft is underwritten (my 1st drafts always are) and it'll bulk up later. But my thing is....once it's finished, if an agent reads the ms and is like, "This is too sparse," then they don't like my writing style. And that's cool and everything. I'm a sparse writer. It's how I tell my stories.

I just don't want someone reading my little number in a query letter and thinking, "I bet she's leaving stuff out."

but yeah I'm not trying to cheat here.

[Shady Lane]

Here's what Miss Snark said about it (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/02/very-last-word-about-word-count.html). It sums things up pretty well.

Gracias.

[Shady Lane]

So are mine. My first draft for the one I just submitted was only about 27K. Not bad for 40 hours, though. (-;

Pssh. I was like 50 hours.

Man.

[maestrowork]

Word says 26,000. Round it up to 30,000 and call it that. Saying it's 40,000 is just trying to fool everyone, including yourself. Better spend time beefing it up to REAL 40,000 words.

[Shady Lane]

ohh, I will.


*evil laugh.*

[Shady Lane]

Mine's 60K. If I'm gonna lie, I'm gonna lie big.


Mine's a trilogy now.

[wayndom]

Not exaggerating for emphasis.

I honestly am not trying to be, uh, shady, here....I've heard people say the 250 X #pages is the preferred method. I DID NOT DREAM THIS.

You are quite right, and those who've said go with the word-processor count are wrong.

250 x pages is called a "publisher's word count," and is not and never was intended to be accurate. Its purpose is to let the publisher know how many pages the published book will be, not how many words it contains, so white space counts as "words," because it takes up space on the page.

And it's not dishonest, because you won't get paid by the word.

[wayndom]

Here's what Miss Snark said about it (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/02/very-last-word-about-word-count.html). It sums things up pretty well.

Huh? First she says use the word-processor count, then she says it doesn't matter.

"Even if you are off by ...gasp...6958 words, no one cares." -- Miss Snark [emphasis mine]

I stand by the 250 x pages, for the reasons I stated. It's what my agent told me is expected. My current novel gets a "bonus" of almost 10,000 words that way, but if I worried about it, I'd write, "Publisher's word count" in front of the number.

[ColoradoGuy]

Well, OK. My agent uses the actual word processor count. She told me the publishers she deals with want that as well. She's sold a bunch of books, as I assume yours has also. So maybe it varies with the publisher. For what it's worth, I've got two books with nearly the same word count, but one is 217 pages published, the other's going to be 290 because of formatting differences in the final product.

[Soccer Mom]

When submitting short stories (where you do get paid by the word) I use Word's count.

For querying, consider this (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1771726&postcount=9).

[Judg]

I am going to use my word processor count and will probably state that fact in my query. I'm sure any agent will be able to figure out what that means. Honestly, I have a hard time believing it matters that much.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my reading of agent blogs and the like, not any my own experience.

[ColoradoGuy]

Honestly, I have a hard time believing it matters that much.
Bingo