An Aspiring Writer's Nightmare

[maxmordon]

I know some of you may or may not know about the constitutional reform that Hugo Chavéz's government is doing in Venezuela. I don't mind your political affiliation, let's keep that on the political and currents events section. But what I do mind is this:

One of the articles in the reform says that Intellectual Property is outlawed. In other words, if someone makes an illegal copy of your book/song/movie and sells on the street is perfectly legal... :rant:


Just think about it! we already had a shameful piracy scandal:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3079032.stm

I live here and I am not a wealthy person, here in Venezuela there are no major book printers (most of our novels are printed from Mexico, Colombia or Argentina) and books are expensive; but something like this will close the doors to a generation of aspiring writers and make the ones who can afford it, to seek Publishing Houses overseas...

oh my, the future seems so grim...

[Soccer Mom]

Max, that's horrible! What on earth is the motivation for such a law? Don't they know what that will do? Does that include patents and such as well?

[Bubastes]

Max, that's horrible! What on earth is the motivation for such a law? Don't they know what that will do? Does that include patents and such as well?

I agree. That is awful! I did a little Googling and found that it does include patents ("scientific works") as well:
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=76357

I'm speechless. That is just blatently backwards. I can't imagine what the rationale for this is -- people actually think this is a GOOD idea?

[maxmordon]

Max, that's horrible! What on earth is the motivation for such a law? Don't they know what that will do? Does that include patents and such as well?

Yep, also patents.

The problem is that because of the government irresposability, piracy has become something too big that they think is easier just legalizing it. Here you can find it basically in any avenue or in markets like this selling 6 movies for a dollar:

http://www.mipunto.com/venezuelavirtual/galeria_fotos/caracas/images/430_venezuela_caracas_distritocapital_bulevarsaban agrande.gif

http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/especial/images/1353_venezuela/1142211_galeria5_informalidade.jpg

Is also part of the government philosophy. Saying that there is nothing wrong in that a poor street vendor sells something made by a rich possibly foreigner person that doesn't contribute to the society

[Khazarkhum]

Ougtha be interesting to see how his Hollywood pals take this.
:popcorn:

[Don Allen]

Max, I've been following what is going on over there and you're right, what ever politics you folks choose to live under is your choice, BUT, from over here it looks like that guy has sold your people and country a ticket to tyranny that for some reason every body has bought into. My favorite President of all time is George Washington, because he refused to be the first King of the United States. I can't quote him exactly, but he basically made the point to those who wanted him to be King that the idea of the constitution was to force the people to activly choose their leaders, and that leaders must always be beholding to the people. A man who refuses to be king for the greater good of the people is a rare thing, before Washington, you might just have to go back to Jesus... I wish you and your people the best and hope that somehow things will work out the way you would like them to.

[JoNightshade]

All I have to say is :Jaw: I always thought that guy was nuts.

[Soccer Mom]

Yep, also patents.

The problem is that because of the government irresposability, piracy has become something too big that they think is easier just legalizing it. Here you can find it basically in any avenue or in markets like this selling 6 movies for a dollar:


Is also part of the government philosophy. Saying that there is nothing wrong in that a poor street vendor sells something made by a rich possibly foreigner person that doesn't contribute to the society

And yet the ones who stand to lost the most are the best and brightest of his own country. As an American writer, it would be lovely to have my books someday in Venezuela, but it's not something I would rely on for my income. If I were a young Venezuelan writer, it would be my fondest dream to have my books selling in my native land. And this would completely dishearten me. It's the equivalent of saying intellectual things have no value.

He honestly has no clue what this would do to the artistic and scientific communities there.

[maxmordon]

Max, I've been following what is going on over there and you're right, what ever politics you folks choose to live under is your choice, BUT, from over here it looks like that guy has sold your people and country a ticket to tyranny that for some reason every body has bought into.


My favorite President of all time is George Washington, because he refused to be the first King of the United States. I can't quote him exactly, but he basically made the point to those who wanted him to be King that the idea of the constitution was to force the people to activly choose their leaders, and that leaders must always be beholding to the people. A man who refuses to be king for the greater good of the people is a rare thing, before Washington, you might just have to go back to Jesus... I wish you and your people the best and hope that somehow things will work out the way you would like them to.


We also had a George Washington-type of character called Simón Bolívar; he liberated Venezuela, Colombia, Perú, Ecuador and Panamá. He had this dream of create a country like United States but in Southamerica. well, they offered the title of Emperor when the country of Greater Colombia was starting to fall apart, but he refused; eventually the country falled apart and Bolívar died in poverty, claiming "We have sewn the sea — Jesus Christ, Don Quixote and me: the three great fools of history..."

You may have heard that Chávez claims that he is a "Bolivarian" but he also claims to follow Marx and Marx loathed Bolivar, calling him "The Napoleon of the withdrawals" but we are aware Chávez wants to be a tyrant, and that is incredible sometimes the things what he comes up

His last incredible plan was establish half hour less to the Standard Time so then we could sleep more...

[Voyager]

That sort of mentality just boggles the mind. Let's bring down the crime rate! How? Let's just make everything legal. I'll look so good on paper. Geez, just mind boggling.

[Novelhistorian]

Isn't Venezuela a signatory of the international treaty governing copyright? Obviously, Chavez doesn't care, but once you start throwing out international covenants, there can be serious (and unhappy) effects.

[Bubastes]

Isn't Venezuela a signatory of the international treaty governing copyright? Obviously, Chavez doesn't care, but once you start throwing out international covenants, there can be serious (and unhappy) effects.

IIRC, yes, Venezuela is a signatory to the Berne Convention. Here's a link to the treaty in case you were interested in the gritty details. The fallout will definitely be interesting.

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html

[Khazarkhum]

He's a Good Guy. Sean Penn says so. :crazy:


Simon Bolivar was a brave man. I doubt he'd approve of Chavez.

[RG570]

I'm going to get huge flak for this, naturally.

But in theory (oh but it never works out that way, you say), if the socialist reforms are implemented properly, the framework exists for aspiring writers to devote more time to writing.

Yes, maybe you can't get rich at it this way but most people don't anyway. This doesn't mean you can't write and publish. Through a reactionary lens it might look that way, but just because the "S" word is involved I suppose most here can't look at it any other way.

Honestly, I'd be cool with that. I don't write to hold copyrights. I'd especially not worry about holding copyrights if I didn't have to stress over whether or not I'd be starving in the streets under a reactionary capitalist government.

[Will Lavender]

I don't write to hold copyrights.

I don't think anyone really writes just so they can hold a copyright. A copyright is an inanimate thing, a concept. I'm not sitting there writing and thinking, Man, this is going to be so cool when I finish and get to see the circled C beside my name.

But the idea of owning copyright is integral to the publishing process. Without it, really what you have is intellectual anarchy. Non-ownership of something that ONE PERSON should be allowed to own. It's almost paradoxical; it really has less to do with capitalism than it does with artistic provenance. It's like a painter finishing a canvas and then immediately having to step away so that someone else can mimic what he's just done.

I guarantee you that if you wrote a book and then were stripped of your ownership you'd feel like it was a kick in the teeth. I know I would.

[WittyandorIronic]

Yeah, that's the whole problem with that theory thing. It rarely works out.
Even then, I would have to disagree with your theory. You may be comfortable in a society in which ownership is a mere joke, but I would not.
(I am going to try to not sound like a drama queen. I doubt I will succeed)
I work my ass off for that great sentence/scene/story/title. The formation of syllables and words that are pleasing to the mind and ear are MY work. The interesting concepts that force a reader to look at their own world view, maybe even reconsider it, is MY unique perspective. The HEA that makes a reader's chest tighten with poignancy is MY prose, wrought from my talent and my life experiences. I'll be damned before someone claims that MY work is the work of a nation. It isn't. It's mine. I don't care about the copyright, I care about the ownership it protects. I don't care about the money but I care about the validation and recognition that it infers. I want to be a best selling author for the money, the validation, the recognition, but most importantly because it is a brief connection with millions (hypothetically) through something I worked so hard to create. I imagine theater actors feel the same. It isn't necessarily the applause. It is the bond that applause represents, that it creates between the public and the actor, the moment of shared "ah ha!" when everyone in a room gets it, feels it, and is moved by it. As an author I don't (or rarely) get to experience that moment, except in recognition and sales.
If you take away ownership it is a very small step towards plagiarism. If there is no owner, than there can be little care for the actual source. And then not only do you no longer own your work, you will never even be recognized for it. That would be a personal hell for me.

And after that dramatic performance let me add, that is just my humble opinion.

*bows, exits stage left*

ETA: If I were a published author that is. lol. Didn't want to mislead anyone.

[JimmyB27]

hmm - that was weird. My post showed up four times, so I deleted one, and now the other three have vanished...

Anyway, all I was saying is that this sounds like a nightmare for *any* writer, aspiring or accomplished.

[mcnorth]

Nobody posting in this thread has any downloaded music?

haha;)

[maxmordon]

Well, you may think that we don't need to medical patents but you have to know that Humberto Fernández Morán invented the Diamond Scalpel (http://cbe.ivic.ve/PatenteCuchillaDiamante.pdf) and the Electron Microscope. The man even worked to the NASA and was professor at the MIT

Just mentioning a curious trivia; like the fact that Argentina created the first pallpoint pen or Mexico developed the Color TV in 1940

[mcnorth]

Thank you, Mexico. I like pens AND TV.

[Will Lavender]

Nobody posting in this thread has any downloaded music?

haha;)

Different topic altogether.

In the US and most (all?) other industrialized countries, intellectual property is controlled. There are bounds to this control, yes, but there are bounds to all law. What's happening under Chavez is different because the very issue of control is being obliterated. It's about the notion of what art is, of what the artist is and his place in the ownership of the property.

You can always have your property "stolen," which is sort of what piracy is. And it doesn't matter what kind of property it is. Cars get stolen, property gets taken away, people get robbed. But at least there is the basic notion of who owns what. Under the Venenzuelan reform, it's all unclear. In fact, the property seems to be as much everyone's as it is one particular person's. I have a problem with the ethics of that, and I'm sure many Venenzuealan writers and filmmakers do as well.

[Novelhistorian]

Under the Venenzuelan reform, it's all unclear. In fact, the property seems to be as much everyone's as it is one particular person's. I have a problem with the ethics of that, and I'm sure many Venenzuealan writers and filmmakers do as well.

I imagine Chavez would have a problem too. Imagine if people came to him and said his presidential palace, his salary, and his power should be shared. Wonder what would happen to them.

[maxmordon]

I imagine Chavez would have a problem too. Imagine if people came to him and said his presidential palace, his salary, and his power should be shared. Wonder what would happen to them.

Check out his brand new Boeing (http://www.noticierodigital.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=275319&sid=56b236d1e803aefe9dca006233e5f5d3)

Yep, if this is not socialism, I don't know what is

[Anya Smith]

That's terrible. I'm sorry to hear that. Sometimes I wonder what this world is coming to.

[WittyandorIronic]

And all my music is legal and paid for. So are my movies. I don't support piracy in any form.
And government sanctioned piracy really is a depressing thought.

[Khazarkhum]

Interesting how the 'Champions of the People' all have private jets & limos.

[chartreuse]

I'm going to get huge flak for this, naturally.

But in theory (oh but it never works out that way, you say), if the socialist reforms are implemented properly, the framework exists for aspiring writers to devote more time to writing.

Yes, maybe you can't get rich at it this way but most people don't anyway. This doesn't mean you can't write and publish. Through a reactionary lens it might look that way, but just because the "S" word is involved I suppose most here can't look at it any other way.

Honestly, I'd be cool with that. I don't write to hold copyrights. I'd especially not worry about holding copyrights if I didn't have to stress over whether or not I'd be starving in the streets under a reactionary capitalist government.

You won't get any flak from me.

I want a system that works, regardless of what it is called or what label some may put on it. Our current system has many people living homeless in the streets, millions of others working full time and yet not making enough to keep a roof over their heads AND put food on the table, and the vast majority of us spending a very large percentage of our time performing tasks that mean nothing to us.

It's not working for most of us at all - if it were we wouldn't be chugging down Prozac like candy and eating ourselves to death.

I'd trade the possibility of getting rich off my writing in an instant for a small guaranteed income and my right to spend my days mostly as I choose.

[Khazarkhum]

You won't get any flak from me.

I want a system that works, regardless of what it is called or what label some may put on it. Our current system has many people living homeless in the streets, millions of others working full time and yet not making enough to keep a roof over their heads AND put food on the table, and the vast majority of us spending a very large percentage of our time performing tasks that mean nothing to us.

It's not working for most of us at all - if it were we wouldn't be chugging down Prozac like candy and eating ourselves to death.

I'd trade the possibility of getting rich off my writing in an instant for a small guaranteed income and my right to spend my days mostly as I choose.

You can do that all you want.

But why should you expect me to pay for you to do it by any means other than buying your book?

[Will Lavender]

You won't get any flak from me.

I want a system that works, regardless of what it is called or what label some may put on it. Our current system has many people living homeless in the streets, millions of others working full time and yet not making enough to keep a roof over their heads AND put food on the table, and the vast majority of us spending a very large percentage of our time performing tasks that mean nothing to us.

It's not working for most of us at all - if it were we wouldn't be chugging down Prozac like candy and eating ourselves to death.

I'd trade the possibility of getting rich off my writing in an instant for a small guaranteed income and my right to spend my days mostly as I choose.

Straw man.

[choppersmom]

This is relatively minor compared to all the other messed-up things Chavez does. He claims to be a supporter of the downtrodden of his country, but he's the one that trod them down, so he could look like a hero for supporting them. I honestly don't understand how so many in America have had so much wool pulled over their eyes that they can't see how bad this guy, and socialism in general are.

[Khazarkhum]

Most people in America understand what Chavez is about.

It's the monied elite who know 'what's best for us' who love him. Folks like Sean Penn & Michael Moore, the people who jet around the world to protest global warming. You know, the usual hypocrites.

And like I said in an earlier post, it'll be interesting to see if they still support him when his policies start costing them money.

[Namatu]

I honestly don't understand how so many in America have had so much wool pulled over their eyes that they can't see how bad this guy, and socialism in general are.
I don't think there's any wool. Why does North Korea get to play around with nukes while Iran can't? It's political priorities and strategies on the part of the "world" powers.

Chavez revoking intellectual property laws in Venezuela strips away another layer of that country's social structure. One day when he's gone, they're going to have to climb over the wreckage he's left behind and put it all back together.

[choppersmom]

I don't think there's any wool. Why does North Korea get to play around with nukes while Iran can't? It's political priorities and strategies on the part of the "world" powers.

Chavez revoking intellectual property laws in Venezuela strips away another layer of that country's social structure. One day when he's gone, they're going to have to climb over the wreckage he's left behind and put it all back together.

I meant that there are a lot of people here in the US who can't or won't see how bad Chavez is, and who consider him a hero. I'm having trouble with how you get to Iran and/or North Korea from my statement, though - but since you brought it up, North Korea isn't allowed to play around with nukes, for the same reason Iran isn't. The leaders of those countries are dangerous madmen who would use their nukes to blow up us or our allies. So would Chavez, if he had the chance. They're all cut from the same cloth, but there are many here who refuse to see that.

Trish

[chartreuse]

You can do that all you want.

But why should you expect me to pay for you to do it by any means other than buying your book?

No, I can't do that all I want; nor can the vast majority of us.

As to why you should pay for it....people always ask this question as if they would get nothing out of a different system themselves. You would get just as much extra time, as much extra security regarding the basics required for life, out of changing the way we do things as the rest of us.

What you really mean is why shouldn't you have the chance to have far more than your share while others have not even enough to get by. THAT is a question that no one can answer for you. If you don't understand why the way we are doing things is not just impractical but downright immoral, there's nothing anyone can say to make you understand.

[Kate Thornton]

No, I can't do that all I want; nor can the vast majority of us.

As to why you should pay for it....people always ask this question as if they would get nothing out of a different system themselves. You would get just as much extra time, as much extra security regarding the basics required for life, out of changing the way we do things as the rest of us.

What you really mean is why shouldn't you have the chance to have far more than your share while others have not even enough to get by. THAT is a question that no one can answer for you. If you don't understand why the way we are doing things is not just impractical but downright immoral, there's nothing anyone can say to make you understand.


I have lots of free time and plenty of money. I worked hard for all of it. Really hard. Yanno, I *earned* it.

I share both with charitable contributions and work for my favorite charities.

So can you.

I don't want what I don't work for, unless I am in need of charitable assistance.

I live in a capitalist society by choice. So can you.

[mscelina]

far more than my share? Oh yeah, I have far more than my share...of bills.

Bills that I work in order to pay. Bills that I play beat the bank with so I can feed my family. Bills that aren't for luxuries, but for the necessities of life. I don't have ANYONE'S share of anything; I have my own little life and I've worked darn hard to get what I have.

It's very easy to tar someone with a broad-spreading brush. Much easier, in fact, than putting yourself in their shoes for a moment and thinking before you say something. I think you'll find that not many people here are fabulously wealthy and taking more than their share. We work for what we have. And I, at least, resent it mightily when someone decides to downplay the effort I've put into my life.

[Soccer Mom]

What you really mean is why shouldn't you have the chance to have far more than your share while others have not even enough to get by. THAT is a question that no one can answer for you. If you don't understand why the way we are doing things is not just impractical but downright immoral, there's nothing anyone can say to make you understand.

This is the ultimate in name calling. If you don't agree with me, it's because you're a greedy fat cat who got more than you deserve by climbing over the bodies of the poor and downtrodden. Any reasonable person would agree with me. If you don't see things my way, you're obviously cruel and immoral and stupid and I can't explain anything to you.

This insults everyone here who disagrees with you and adds nothing to the discussion.

[aka eraser]

Deep breath time folks.

Bracing, ain't it?

:)

I think this thread has already become Politics & Current Events material so I'm going to port it over there.

Let's make an effort to keep it from landing in TIO shall we?

[Jean Marie]

And all my music is legal and paid for. So are my movies. I don't support piracy in any form.
And government sanctioned piracy really is a depressing thought.
I don't support piracy in any manner, shape or form, either. How can one, it's ripping off the artist if you do.

Deep breath time folks.

Bracing, ain't it?

:)

I think this thread has already become Politics & Current Events material so I'm going to port it over there.

Let's make an effort to keep it from landing in TIO shall we?
Deep breathing is good for the soul, Frank. As for bracing, it's gettin' cold, here. 'Course, not like it does in your neck of the woods.

That kind of cold, is what I'd call, biting.

[William Haskins]

Scores injured, arrested ahead of anti-Chavez protest (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hTQki6dAXzplTYTqEhXcsm2bgJbQ)

Venezuela Student Protests Turn Violent; Two Die, Nacional Says (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aT9nRMh0JNQc&refer=latin_america)

Venezuelan Student Is Gunned Down During Protest March (http://chronicle.com/news/article/3375/venezuelan-student-is-gunned-down-during-protest-march)

Violence Continues as Thousands Protest in Venezuela (http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-11-02-voa9.cfm)

and finally (surprise, surprise):

Chávez threatens to ban student demonstrations (http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/11/05/en_pol_art_chavez-threatens-to_05A1173517.shtml)

[William Haskins]

I'm going to get huge flak for this, naturally.

But in theory (oh but it never works out that way, you say), if the socialist reforms are implemented properly, the framework exists for aspiring writers to devote more time to writing.

this is true. the hours just seem to stretch forever in the gulag.

[Khazarkhum]

No, I can't do that all I want; nor can the vast majority of us.

As to why you should pay for it....people always ask this question as if they would get nothing out of a different system themselves. You would get just as much extra time, as much extra security regarding the basics required for life, out of changing the way we do things as the rest of us.

What you really mean is why shouldn't you have the chance to have far more than your share while others have not even enough to get by. THAT is a question that no one can answer for you. If you don't understand why the way we are doing things is not just impractical but downright immoral, there's nothing anyone can say to make you understand.

What do you do for a living? Where do you live?

You want to be paid to basically sit on your butt & think, and maybe actually, once in a while, put pen to paper & write. It won't matter what you write, of course, because all that matters is that you're an artiste, and as such are above tha banal requirements that you create something someone other than your mom likes.

Here's an idea. Why don't you go and trade places with a writer in Venezuela or Cuba or any other 'worker's paradise'? You'll get what you want, which is the freedom to do nothing, and they'll get what they want, which is freedom.

Get back to us in a couple of years and we'll see who got the better part of the deal.

[choppersmom]

What you really mean is why shouldn't you have the chance to have far more than your share while others have not even enough to get by. THAT is a question that no one can answer for you. If you don't understand why the way we are doing things is not just impractical but downright immoral, there's nothing anyone can say to make you understand.

The problem with this statement is that almost all of those who don't have enough to get by could have more than they could spend if they went out and got it. That means work. Don't sit at home waiting for the liberals to vote in a new round of handouts for you; go out and get a job! Get some training, and get a better job! That's what I've always done, along with all the other taxpayers supporting you. The rich are rich because at some point, someone went out and earned some money. The poor are poor because they refuse to do so. I work, and each year it seems that more and more of the money I work for is taken away from and given to those who don't feel like working. To me, THAT'S immoral. Socialism has tanked in every country that has implemented it. Saying, well, WE can make it work is denial to the nth degree. It won't work, it will just make paupers out of all of us, and then where will we be? In the same situation as Venezuela, where poverty is rampant and a madman holds the reins.

[Joe270]

Scores injured, arrested ahead of anti-Chavez protest

Venezuela Student Protests Turn Violent; Two Die, Nacional Says

Venezuelan Student Is Gunned Down During Protest March

Violence Continues as Thousands Protest in Venezuela

and finally (surprise, surprise):

Chávez threatens to ban student demonstrations


I'm wondering if Penn and the other goofs are still supporting Chavez now. They might seen a different 'worker's paradise' if they visited now.

[dahmnait]

This is the ultimate in name calling. If you don't agree with me, it's because you're a greedy fat cat who got more than you deserve by climbing over the bodies of the poor and downtrodden. Any reasonable person would agree with me. If you don't see things my way, you're obviously cruel and immoral and stupid and I can't explain anything to you.

This insults everyone here who disagrees with you and adds nothing to the discussion.Thank you for that. I am one of the poor, though I don't consider myself downtrodden, and I don't agree. I want a chance to prove myself to myself. But then those that think socialism is a great way to live need to do a little more research on what socialism entails in practice, not theory. Most people would change their minds.

-- Back to the OP --

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/11/05/en_pol_art_chavez-threatens-to_05A1173517.shtml
"You have to assess this. You should not be surprised if you grant them a permit to march to O'Leary Square and then they will go to (the presidential palace of) Miraflores to burn it. This is the way the events of April 11 (2002) started, because of our weaknesses. But we will not allow this, you sons of daddy, you filthy rich people." President Hugo Chavez
And I am sure he is living his life as frugally as possible. Interesting how those in power in a socialist government rarely live as they preach.

[xhouseboy]

Interesting how the 'Champions of the People' all have private jets & limos.

It's a pyramid deal.

In theory, one day they'll all have private jets and limos. Either that, or those at the top of the Socialist Utopia pile will one day fill a few hundred suitcases and bail out for real Utopia on a private island somewhere, leaving their workers' paradise to patch itself back together again while they're sipping margaritas.

ETA: In Chavez's case, he could always invite Sean Penn down to party with him.

[maxmordon]

It's a pyramid deal.

In theory, one day they'll all have private jets and limos. Either that, or those at the top of the Socialist Utopia pile will one day fill a few hundred suitcases and bail out for real Utopia on a private island somewhere, leaving their workers' paradise to patch itself back together again while they're sipping margaritas.

ETA: In Chavez's case, he could always invite Sean Penn down to party with him.

I don't know if you people heard about. But there was a case some months ago about a man who said that worked with Chávez arrested in the Buenos Aires airport with a suitcase with almost one million dollars

[maxmordon]

Didn't know that El Universal published in English online


Chávez forecast the opposition would be defeated next December 2 and called his followers to overcome abstention and strengthen his United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV).


Considering that the previous Chairman of the National Electoral Council is the current Vicepresident and that the one who was before him is now member of the Supreme Court, I think is quite likely. Whithout adding the fact that the morale of the people is usually down about this subject. These current events have elevated the morale.

Most of the people I know is now indifferent. Some of them even saying that they think they will never live to see Chávez out of the government...

[Kate Thornton]

Oh, Max, that is depressing!

I hope even *I* will live to see him out of office!

[Jean Marie]

He's gonna be like Castro, around forever, I'm afraid. That's what's so damned sad.

[Jean Marie]

And supported by idiots like Sean Penn who are in the arts, go figure! Of all people, you'd think he'd get it...

[dahmnait]

Most of the people I know is now indifferent. Some of them even saying that they think they will never live to see Chávez out of the government...
He's gonna be like Castro, around forever, I'm afraid. That's what's so damned sad.
It does sound like he has completed one of the final steps to establishing a dictatorship. Oppress the people to the point of depression and firmly establish a sense of futility.

[Jean Marie]

It does sound like he has completed one of the final steps to establishing a dictatorship. Oppress the people to the point of depression and firmly establish a sense of futility.
Sickening and sad. But, Sean Penn loves him. Wonder what he thinks of him, now.

[mscelina]

Just as an aside, should it really matter what a 'celebrity' thinks? An educated person rarely allows their opinions to be dictated by what the 'celebrities' believe. Although, alas, we could have hoped Sean Penn would know better than to open his mouth about a political figure in a country other than his own, well *shrug* that's what we get for hoping.

[William Haskins]

it's important to note that sean penn's political views draw heavily on those of his father, a stalinist with ties to american communist movements.

[Siddow]

You guys know way too much about Sean Penn.

I thought he was good in I Am Sam. And that's about as far as my concern with SP goes.

[Khazarkhum]

Just as an aside, should it really matter what a 'celebrity' thinks? An educated person rarely allows their opinions to be dictated by what the 'celebrities' believe. Although, alas, we could have hoped Sean Penn would know better than to open his mouth about a political figure in a country other than his own, well *shrug* that's what we get for hoping.

It shouldn't matter what some jackass who barely graduated high school thinks. Unfortunately he has a lot of money, and he uses it to buy influence. And the US media is so rabidly 'anything but Bush' that they will take his money & broadcast his ideas.

And Chavez is no idiot--he's using Penn & others to further his agenda.