When you get there, what do you expect to see?

[Nateskate]

In a previous thread I talked about "Dreams". Dreams are great, but not all dreams are what you expect when you get there. When you are a teen, you dream of your first "new" car. Some people might really get into cars, but generally for most people, the "newness" wears off fast, and after enough cars and car payments, you are rather sick of anything with four wheels, and wished we still rode horses.

Same thing happens with dating and the reality that meaningful relationships that last will require hard work at some point, sacrifice, forgiveness and sometimes giving up a dream or two.

Okay, lets say you get wealthy. Let's say you get famous. Let's say you get on Oprah, Letterman, the Daily Show, Ellen, or whomever floats your boat, do you think that arriving will be exactly as glamorous as you think?

Now, here's a thread where dreamers and "Already-Been-Theres" can contribute.

To me, this whole process (Hoping to be Published) is like childbirth, and hard labor at that. You are doing it because you are expecting this wonderful package. But Newbie parents find out that kids get ear infections that keep them up screaming all night, and then there's dealing with the schools if your kid has ADHD or Aspergers or some other learning problem. Yeah, kids are great, I raised two, and love them both, but there were many times I longed to be admitted to a mental hospital just to get a break from their constant fighting and driving my wife up the wall.

Let's face it. Look at "Behind the music", Jen and Ben 1 and 2, Jessica and Nick, Jen and Brad. Famous wealthy people don't always look so happy.

Do any of you temper your dreams realizing that when you get to the top of the mountain, it's not as illustrious as you imagined? I'm not saying don't go there. If you are a writer, you are constantly pregnant with something longing to get born, so you just have to do it anyway. There's no two ways about it, I'm not keeping this baby inside. But, I'm not so sure what "over the rainbow" is going to look like until I get there.

[Ali B]

For me all dreams are iffy, but usually they are worth dreaming.
When I was a girl I always dreamed of being on the Oprah show with my latest book. Now I realize that dream is kinda funny since I have social anxiety. lol Still, it kept me writing and submitting. The dream is why I'm a published writer, even if the dream may never come true.

[Nateskate]

For me all dreams are iffy, but usually they are worth dreaming.
When I was a girl I always dreamed of being on the Oprah show with my latest book. Now I realize that dream is kinda funny since I have social anxiety. lol Still, it kept me writing and submitting. The dream is why I'm a published writer, even if the dream may never come true.

Hi Alina. Good to see you. I think dreams are iffy as well. Every time I reached a goal, it was never what I hoped. But that has nothing to do with externals as much as it does with the internal wiring and what makes us tick.

In general, I've had to work at being positive and a cup half full person.

The people who really tend to enjoy fame the most are driven people who have a megalomaniac bent. Why? Because fame is actually inconvenient. None of us are by nature good at being worshiped. That's why I think so many rock stars end up blowing it all. Or why people like Mel Gibson thought of ending it all.

There is an insanity to being recognized and put on a pedistal and having unrealistic expectations. I think at first, "I'm going to be delighted to see my book on a Bestsellers list at B&N, but then I'd realize, "What about the sophomore jitters? Will I feel pressured by the expectations to make book number two a success?"

Of course, many people here are already successful and happy, and have the perfect disposition for being where they are. Maybe I'm an introspective quirk, and think too much. Forget that, I am an instrosective quirk that thinks too much!

I don't have social anxiety per se. But I sympathise. The first time I spoke in front of hundreds, I was nervous. Then I got used to it. Then I spoke in front of thousands, and I wasn't used to it anymore. But even having the ability to speak in front of people, I've wrestled with other forms of anxiety.

During one period in my life, when I had health problems, constant sleep deprivation and a tremendous amount of stress, I had full blown panic attacks, which suck in traffic. In fact, I had them wake me out of a sleep. Worse yet, I had enough health problems that I couldn't tell if it was a panic attack, asthma attack or cardiac related, which really sucks. Why? Because I have asthma, and too much of the medication can cause me to go into arrythmias (Anyone else here cardioverted?) So, if I was having SOB, I'd rather ride it out than take too much asthma medicine, which is a terrible catch 22. Hope that isn't TMI.

[Azure Skye]

I like to dream but I know from a lifetime of experience that the dream and reality usually don't match. For the longest time I fantasized about living a writer's life or what I thought it would be like to live that life. Since I really began writing consistently, I see now that a writer's life is about work and a lot of it. Now, when I fantasize about living a writer's life, I imagine myself working 6-8 hours a day. The dream is still appealing and fun to think about but now it's based more in the reality of it.

[cwfgal]

I learned at some point in my life (though I can't tell you exactly when it happened) that the only measure of success for me is my own level of happiness and contentment. I set goals for myself and when I reach them, I set new goals. This is a neverending process so I always have something I'm working toward. There is always something new and exciting to experience on the horizon; possibilities await me around every turn.

I think a lot of this comes from the fact that I bore easily. It's why I love working in the ER (I'm a nurse) because you never know what's going to come through that door next. It's also one of the reasons I love to write--each writing project is a new adventure.

I've been published in both fiction and nonfiction, I've had two of my novels optioned for movies. Those writing milestones have been achieved but there are others I will continue to strive for. I'm not sure "fame" is one of them. It really doesn't appeal to me all that much because at heart I'm a person who values my privacy and my solitude.

I've learned that someone else's definition of success isn't necessarily my own. After working my way up the ladder in my nursing career to management positions -- the supposed determination of "success" -- I discovered that I was much happier doing patient care. When I succeeded enough in my writing that I was able to support myself on it alone and work from home, I discovered after a few years of doing it that I was actually happier doing writing part time only and keeping an outside job. So while many writers envision that work-from-home-support-yourself-with-your-writing ideal as "success," for me it didn't hold true. One caveat here: To support myself with writing alone I was producing both fiction and nonfiction stuff. I discovered that I don't really enjoy nonfiction writing all that much and if I could make enough to support myself on my fiction alone, I might (MIGHT) give up my nursing job. Although I honestly think I'd keep doing the nursing stuff on a very part time basis in a way that would let me choose my own schedule.

I guess all that is a long way of saying that I dream about the things I haven't yet experienced, and I anticipate whatever new adventures await me in my writing and in my life. If being on Oprah happens, fine. But it's not a specific goal for me. Ultimately, my only real goal is to be happy and content. I think that's true for most people but everyone has to determine for themselves what it will take for that to happen.

Beth

[Fillanzea]

Anne Lamott's "Bird by Bird" is wise and hilarious on this point.

She says that if you're unhappy as an unpublished writer, you're going to be no happier as a published writer. Your books get returned, they don't earn out, they get awful reviews, nobody recognizes you on the street. Or if you're one of the lucky few superstars, the books get turned into awful movies.

So I don't really imagine much glamor, though the nice little ranch home with a grand piano and a Border Collie isn't too far from my mind. ;) I'll be cool with whatever happens.

But my Sooper Sekrit dream is to have a book that gets challenged and removed from school libraries. I live for the controversy, man. That's glamor.

[Jamesaritchie]

I hate to say something that's total cliche, but it's true, so I will. I learned a long time ago that what matters is whether or not you're happy during the journey. If you are, you don't have to worry about what happens when you reach your destination. If you aren't, the destination will probably be a big disappointment.

On the other side of the coin, I've also learned that while money can't buy happiness, it can certainly stave off much of the unhappiness that poverty brings.

[black winged fighter]

I'm a realist daydreamer, however strange that may sound. When I dream something, I can instantly detect the fake glow of perfection, but this does not detract from the dream for me.

Writing is what I love, and when I fantasize about being an author, I hardly ever think about tours or talk shows. For me, the best part would be sitting by the computer for eight hours and typing away. If people will buy my books and let me write more, my wishes will be fulfilled.

Even so, these are high hopes, and I temper them with reality often. But while I am practical, I feel that optimism is the key to success. That, and perseverance.

[victoriastrauss]

She says that if you're unhappy as an unpublished writer, you're going to be no happier as a published writer.
This is very true, I think.

On the other hand, it is a fact that getting published, which many aspiring writers see as the end of the struggle, is really just the beginning of a different struggle. Every stage has its own challenges.

- Victoria

[Mistook]

I expect deadlines, conflict, confrontations, situations where I can't smoke or drink when I feel like it. I expect headaches. But hey... I'm getting all that now being a nobody.

I don't expect all my worries and woes to just melt away and find myself living in paradise... I mean not until after I die... and even that is a bit iffy ;)

If my dreams were to come true, then I do expect that the experience would be worth all the trouble. I think I'd die fairy happy, knowing I accomplished a few things that they'll talk about for a while.

I gotta say though, I'm really banking on that afterlife to make all this BS truly worthwhile.

[maestrowork]

Dreams are good to have, to motivate us, but don't set yourself up with expectations. That you think "happily ever after" is a tautology. That reaching your dreams will solve all your problems, etc.

I agree with the journey vs. destination idea. Part of the fun is the journey. As long as you put everything in perspective, I think you'll be fine.

[Handicop]

"Dreams I'll never see", it's still one of my favorite songs. I actually like the Molly Hatchet cover, it's the only Allman Bros. cover that I do like. It runs through my head every time I watch Charlie Rose.

[Elizabeth]

I hate to say something that's total cliche, but it's true, so I will. I learned a long time ago that what matters is whether or not you're happy during the journey. If you are, you don't have to worry about what happens when you reach your destination. If you aren't, the destination will probably be a big disappointment.

I don't think this is totally cliche, actually. I haven't heard it in a while, and it's really worth remembering.

[RGame]

I never actually dreamt about fame. My biggest goal was always just to be able to go into a bookstore and have a book of mine on the shelf. Or simply to be able to hold a book filled with words I had written.

I used to dream of being in a specific magazine, and occasionally I've been able to get into that magazine. But after a day or two of looking at it, I usually just put it in a drawer and never look at it again. So I'm guessing even the excitement of holding your own book would wear off fairly quickly. But that's still my main goal.

[Ali B]

I used to dream of being in a specific magazine, and occasionally I've been able to get into that magazine. But after a day or two of looking at it, I usually just put it in a drawer and never look at it again.

Yep, same thing happened to me. Strange, huh? You spend all that time on that goal and after a while it's like, "Okay, whatever."

[Nateskate]

I learned at some point in my life (though I can't tell you exactly when it happened) that the only measure of success for me is my own level of happiness and contentment. I set goals for myself and when I reach them, I set new goals. This is a neverending process so I always have something I'm working toward. There is always something new and exciting to experience on the horizon; possibilities await me around every turn.

I think a lot of this comes from the fact that I bore easily. It's why I love working in the ER (I'm a nurse) because you never know what's going to come through that door next. It's also one of the reasons I love to write--each writing project is a new adventure.

I've been published in both fiction and nonfiction, I've had two of my novels optioned for movies. Those writing milestones have been achieved but there are others I will continue to strive for. I'm not sure "fame" is one of them. It really doesn't appeal to me all that much because at heart I'm a person who values my privacy and my solitude. Beth

My wife is also a nurse, actually a CRNP and college prof, who also did ER and CCU. She's also published in medical books and journals. She's at the top of her field, and will soon have her Ph.D, but the things that float her boat so to speak, is doing Medical Missions in the 3rd world, where they don't even have EKG machines, and you have to bag vent patients by hand. It's helping AIDS babies in parts of Haiti where the orphans forage for food with pigs and goats.

Just my two cents, some of us need to be hands on, interacting with other people, and thats where we find the most satisfaction. I still dream of getting on Oprah, but I wonder if I'll end up feeling disappointed and disallusioned when its all said and done. To me, fame seems like eating junkfood all day. You always feel sick to your stomach, and wished you'd eaten something else.

[Nateskate]

Anne Lamott's "Bird by Bird" is wise and hilarious on this point.

She says that if you're unhappy as an unpublished writer, you're going to be no happier as a published writer. Your books get returned, they don't earn out, they get awful reviews, nobody recognizes you on the street. Or if you're one of the lucky few superstars, the books get turned into awful movies.

So I don't really imagine much glamor, though the nice little ranch home with a grand piano and a Border Collie isn't too far from my mind. ;) I'll be cool with whatever happens.

But my Sooper Sekrit dream is to have a book that gets challenged and removed from school libraries. I live for the controversy, man. That's glamor.

I just love so much about this post. The common sense, fame isn't all its cracked up to be. The practicality of wanting that little Oasis. Mine is a log cabin in the woods. And the sense of humor. I'm a controversy magnate!

[Nateskate]

Dreams are good to have, to motivate us, but don't set yourself up with expectations. That you think "happily ever after" is a tautology. That reaching your dreams will solve all your problems, etc.

I agree with the journey vs. destination idea. Part of the fun is the journey. As long as you put everything in perspective, I think you'll be fine.

Good common sense and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Nateskate]

So I'm guessing even the excitement of holding your own book would wear off fairly quickly. But that's still my main goal.

Amen brother, you found the right church!

[katdad]

We all have daydreams about a hugely successful novel bringing us wealth and fame. And a modest amount of dreaming is okay, as I see it.

I envision my mystery novel winning the Shamus award and an Edgar, too. I envision screenplay options and a TV-movie on FX. I envision sitting at a book-signing and happily autographing a big stack of hardbacks for eager fans. I envision signing a big fat multi-book contract for a chunk of change.

All these daydreams are healthy and a good way to blow off steam.

What we don't want to do is let the dreams interfere with reality. And reality is that my agent will possibly sell my 1st novel for a modest sum this year, and that he'll then sell the 2nd novel for a larger amount. Reality is that I may get some nice reviews and modest commercial sales success, and that I may, with luck, be nominated for a Shamus.

By the way, I'll stick to my car. Horses hate me, have big teeth, and they leave poop. They are also kinda awful in the rain, and hell to drive around when you have a date.

[Coco82]

I'd like to reach a modest point of success so as I can buy a nice place in So. Cali and live a nice life. I'm not necessarily looking for a mansion and recognition, though that'd be nice. I would like to be able to make a career of this though in some from whether screenwritng, novells, or another type.

[Denis Castellan]

Okay, lets say you get wealthy. Let's say you get famous. Let's say you get on Oprah, Letterman, the Daily Show, Ellen, or whomever floats your boat, do you think that arriving will be exactly as glamorous as you think?
I'd go for wealth rather than fame. I don't know about your shows in the USA, but I wouldn't mind not being invited to any of our shows in France (except maybe for one where they have interesting music bands from time to time...)

When I say wealth, I mean earning enough from my books for not having to work for a living somewhere else. I would have time to write and make some music too.

But what I'd like most is seeing the people I know say that I'm worth something, finally. Nothing like glamour there, I think :)

[Coco82]

I'd go for wealth rather than fame. I don't know about your shows in the USA, but I wouldn't mind not being invited to any of our shows in France (except maybe for one where they have interesting music bands from time to time...)

When I say wealth, I mean earning enough from my books for not having to work for a living somewhere else. I would have time to write and make some music too.

But what I'd like most is seeing the people I know say that I'm worth something, finally. Nothing like glamour there, I think :)

That's a good way of putting it. I don't want fame really. I'd like though to make enough that I can sit back and do writing as a living w/o having a second job. Right now I'm in college and taking classes in writing so I hope to do it for a livinng. Otherwise I'd major in something else.

[maestrowork]

The funny thing is, I don't think there's ever going to be a "there" for me. I'm always moving on. And I've "been there" before -- meaning, I've reached my goals many times over. My goals are never anything like "make $X million of dollars, etc." I mean, if those were my actual goals, I have a feeling that I would have achieved them already (I have every opportunity to make lots of money in the past 10 years...) Money simply is not an objective for me, at this point (well, okay, I'd like to not starve and become homeless...)

Fame and wealth are also relative. How much is enough? I'd be hypocritical if I say fame and fortune don't do anything for me. They could be nice... IF I can put it all in perspective. Life is more than that. I mean, I have been there (no I am not famous or wealthy... but)... I've been in movies -- I mean I saw my face 15 feet high on a screen in a movie theater. I've been on TV and been spokesperson in commercials. I've peformed in a Broadway play in front of thousands of people. These experiences were NICE. They became part of me. They're part of me, part of my journey -- they were never my destinations.

At the end of the day, I'm still the same person. I AM the journey.

Another analogy would be this: I set out to go to San Francisco -- and I did, now I'm moving on to somewhere else... New York, maybe? And when I do finally get to New York... I will drink it all in, enjoy my experience and how I actually got there... then I'll move on again. Maybe this time to Paris. Or maybe years from now I'd like to go back to San Francisco again. Life to me is a big frigging carnival. After I'm done with the marry-go-round, I want to try the roller coasters. Then I'd like to see play a game of toss...

I suspect that once I achieve some success with my writing, maybe sell a few books, I'd want to do something else. I won't sit still until the day I die. There's always something else to try, to learn, to play with, to master... I think it's very exciting, and I can't wait to keep doing that for years and years to come.

[Liam Jackson]

There's an inherent problem with dreams. First, let me say that I believe in the power of dreams. Dreams are part of the three part equation for success: Conceive, believe, and achieve.

However, when we dream, we generally only visualize the most desirable reward, without regard to the other baggage that comes with success. In some cases, we can't see that baggage beforehand, and it's difficult to prepare for something when you don't even know it exists. Like the old saying goes, "We don't know what we don't know."

Consider that a dream-come-true isn't an end. It's actually a new beginning...baggage and all.

Just my two bits. (adjusted for inflation)

[reph]

Fame and fortune: thoughts.

I doubt the value of fame. It exists in other people's heads. What others think of me isn't part of my experience. They'll always get it wrong anyway. Money, however, is useful.

[cwfgal]

I envision sitting at a book-signing and happily autographing a big stack of hardbacks for eager fans.

I had that vision, too. And I had one signing that came close (although my books were paperbacks.) The reality for the others? Let me just say this: find out where the restrooms are first thing because for half, sometimes most of the people coming to your table, that's all they want.

Beth, B.L.E.
(bathroom location expert)

[oswann]

Don't underestimate the regenerative powers of recognition. It's different for everyone, and not, by any means the sole motivating force, but it's gas in the tank. I have a degree of recognition in a different artistic field and have been around the pomp and ceremony long enough to know that you take what you can get. If it is your mother or the ambassador of your country congratulating you take it graciously and feel good. Most people I know, like myself, dwell on their failure and ignore their success. Don't do this.






BTW hello everyone.

Os.

[Nateskate]

Don't underestimate the regenerative powers of recognition. It's different for everyone, and not, by any means the sole motivating force, but it's gas in the tank. I have a degree of recognition in a different artistic field and have been around the pomp and ceremony long enough to know that you take what you can get. If it is your mother or the ambassador of your country congratulating you take it graciously and feel good. Most people I know, like myself, dwell on their failure and ignore their success. Don't do this.

BTW hello everyone.

Os.

I've also had some recognition/honor in the past, cheering thousands, but I never quite knew what to do with it. Perhaps its a personal quirk, but I've never felt comfortable with the spotlight, or the attention afterwards. I always prefer to carry my own bags metaphorically. It's not that I feel uncomfortable in front of people. I can get going with a mic in my hand. But off stage, I feel terribly uncomfortable on somebodies pedestal.

I much prefer intimate one to one or small group interaction, and relationships. Perhaps each of our personalities thrive in different places.

[Writing Again]

I don't need a fortune, I'd just like to be able to wake up in the morning, do a couple of hourse of exercise, grab coffee, write at least four hours a day, read in the evening, spend weekends doing interesting things and meeting new people. I could do that earning less than I earn now -- I just would be better able to enjoy the 40 to 56 hours I currently spend on the job paying bills.

Fame bothers me. I do not want it. I want to avoid it. One of the attractions to me when I was young was that midlist authors were relatively unknown except to those dedicated fans who memorized the picture on the back of the dust jacket. I have never wanted to be on Oprah or any incarnation thereof.

When I'm with people I'm very socially outgoing and I have been on television and radio pushing my writing -- The experience did not bother me, but it did not send me into raptures either.

When I walk inside my house and close my door I want to be alone and not be bothered or have the world beating a path to it.

[Jamesaritchie]

Don't underestimate the regenerative powers of recognition. It's different for everyone, and not, by any means the sole motivating force, but it's gas in the tank. I have a degree of recognition in a different artistic field and have been around the pomp and ceremony long enough to know that you take what you can get. If it is your mother or the ambassador of your country congratulating you take it graciously and feel good. Most people I know, like myself, dwell on their failure and ignore their success. Don't do this.






BTW hello everyone.

Os.

I like having my writing recoginzed, which means editors buy it and readers read it, but there's nothing I'd like more than to never, ever have my writing associated with me. I don't like anything about fame, and far from being a motivating force, it's almost enough to make me question whether or not writing is a good thing.

Barring a business deal I can't refuse, there will be few things published under my own name in the future.

I'm much like Writing ASgain in this resepct. What I've always wanted from writing is the freedom to live in my own house, doing what I want to do, what I enjoy doing. The last thing I want from writing is anything that detracts from this. For me, fame, book tours, recognition, all take away from this.

[maestrowork]

Fame and fortune could be useful. Well, first, money can be useful -- we all know that. With money you can do many things to help others, to support others, etc. etc. Only the most selfish people would abuse that.

As for fame, I think it has more to do with who you know and who know you and what you do with it than the groupies and tables you get in restaurants... you can do many great things when you're famous. The things you say can have a profound effect on someone who looks up to you. Your name alone could gather a lot of people for a cause (just look at the way the celebrities helped raise millions for 9/11 and the Tsunami relief, or how influential Clinton can be in anything he does or says as a civilian...) With fame comes the people who are attached to it, and that can be power.

And I think we all have some skewed ideas of what being famous and wealthy are like (since most of us are not famous or wealthy) -- the glare, the paparazzi, the phone calls, the stalkers, the tabloids, etc. etc. In reality, it's really not like that. The premieres, parties, book signings, award shows, etc. etc. they're just part of the business. I mean, when you're on business, you have to do social things anyway. I'm not famous, but I've done quite a few rounds of fundraisers and parties and photo shoots... they can actually be fun, if you don't get sucked into the whole illusion.

In a way, fame is a state of mind. You either subscribe to it and get swollowed by it, or you look at it as just another spice in your life, that it doesn't change who you are...

I mean about 10 years ago I saw Tom Cruise at a movie theater in Westwood, CA. He was just like any regular guy. Sure, people recognized him, but no one seemed to really care. Definitely no one bothered him. He was just standing in line, buying his ticket, not pulling his rank at all. Of course, it was LA and people were used to celebrities. I have met and worked with a few famous people -- to me, they're just normal people. And sometimes they're good connections to have...

Of course, like what everything else, fame and fortune could be abused and used for the wrong things, and they could corrupt even the most innocent minds.

Paris Hilton abuses her fame and fortune.

Warren Buffett or Stephen King doesn't.

[Daughter of Faulkner]

and I am happy.

[Nateskate]

Maestrowork, I agree with most of what you say. It depends on you and the fishbowl you live in.

It's not the fame that matters, but how people treat you, and whether they respect your boundaries or become intrusive. Also, you tend to deal with people who become weird around you. It may depend on the Genre of your fame. It's different being someone who is a famous movie star/rock star/athlete and writer. I think writers tend to have more obscurity in general, and less face recognition.

[clotje]

I'd like to make enough money (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=16,45429513,absolutewrite.com,0 ) from writing that I can quit the day job. More money would be welcome because then I could buy a nice secluded house in Cornwall or Scotland and write, write, write.

I am not really interested in fame. I think it must be quite horrific not to be able to walk down a street without being recognised. It would be nice though to be appreciated for my work, especially from authors that I look up to.


(And don't think for one minute that I've given up on the perfect world where I'm Mrs. Depp ;) )

[Handicop]

I'm thinking that fame might not be something I would want. My wife and I are very private people, and fame may also have a negative impact on our children. I have never been in the public eye as it were, but I have been mentioned in the papers a few times. I can't say I liked that very much.

It would be nice to earn enough money to secure a solid future for the kids, college funds would be the priority, maybe pay off the mortgage and buy a second car. Anything beyond that just boggles the mind.

The fantasy would be a home in Vermont and the ability to provide some assistance to family and a few good friends. It would also be nice to be able to write a big fat check to whatever charity I felt like helping out. Being disabled I can think of a few, and my police experience leaves me with a real soft spot for abused women and children. You would be amazed how many people suffer in silence, you would also be amazed at how patheticly limited are the public resources available to them.

My life experience in total has taught me to enjoy every day, to soak up all of the good that life has to offer. Fame and fortune is not part of that real world equation, but it sure would be nice! It's all gravy from where I sit.

[BlueTexas]

I think sometimes we should appreciate dreaming the dream as an 'it' in and of itself. How our dreams look from the other side of achievement is surely going to be different, but should that negate the dream itself and make it something we look back on with regret?

I'm not saying we should be happily naive, but that we should value where we are as much as where we were and where we want to be. The process, the living in hopes of a dream is what gets us there, after all. It's why we get up in the morning and skip lunch with our co-workers to madly scribble at our desks. Dreams are valuable things, even in retrospect.

I saw a show o the history channel a while back on the history of god and religion. There was a Russian Orthodox Monk on it, and he talked about god being the is-ness of is. I think our dreams are something akin to that, that is-ness (not god) but the graceful explaination escapes me at the moment.

And yeah, I'm at my desk on my lunch hour, while everyone else is at Starbucks.

[reph]

I've also had some recognition/honor in the past...but I never quite knew what to do with it....
I much prefer intimate one to one or small group interaction, and relationships...

Oh, boy, does this describe me! It's called introversion.

What good is fame, really? Hypothesis: Yearning for recognition and approval by thousands of strangers represents a wish to be known and understood – but the thousands of strangers won't exactly know and understand you. You're more likely to get that, or approach it, in real relationships.

[jdkiggins]

I've always been a firm believer that dreams are like goals. If your goals seem out of reach, they probably are. I learned a long time ago to make small steps and work my way toward a plausible end. Of course, nothing ever ends, I just keep getting pregnant with ideas.:Jump:

Joanne

[johnnysannie]

If a writer is mature enough to expect reality over daydreams, then they realize that happiness is what you make or what you deny yourself.

Expecting movie star like fame and riches beyond the needs of ten lifetimes is unrealistic. It's a fantasy like winning the Lotto or Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes. Life - even for a successful writer - is not a fairy tale with happily ever after endings.

Many authors - including best selling ones - are never seen on the talk show circuit. They live and write and publish. Most don't have money worries but they are also not out jetsetting around the world, dining with celebrities, wearing mink and diamonds. A few do but most don't.

Writers write. Rich or poor, published or unknown, famous or unheard of, writers write.

I once worked in media and met many "celebrities". Most are just people....like you and me and those you know. Only a few have an arrogant view of themselves as somehow above everyone else.

Writers write.

If fame and fortune follow, they still write.

[Nateskate]

If a writer is mature enough to expect reality over daydreams, then they realize that happiness is what you make or what you deny yourself.

Expecting movie star like fame and riches beyond the needs of ten lifetimes is unrealistic. It's a fantasy like winning the Lotto or Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes. Life - even for a successful writer - is not a fairy tale with happily ever after endings.

Many authors - including best selling ones - are never seen on the talk show circuit. They live and write and publish. Most don't have money worries but they are also not out jetsetting around the world, dining with celebrities, wearing mink and diamonds. A few do but most don't.

Writers write. Rich or poor, published or unknown, famous or unheard of, writers write.

I once worked in media and met many "celebrities". Most are just people....like you and me and those you know. Only a few have an arrogant view of themselves as somehow above everyone else.

Writers write.

If fame and fortune follow, they still write.

It helps that you've lived where you've had that POV. Being that you worked with celebrities and saw the various sides, you already have an educated perspective. But it's like winning the lottery for most people. Even if they read ten rags to riches, and back to rags stories, they still want to give it a shot themselves.

Thats sort of why I started the "What do you expect when you get there" post. It's a cause to ponder, "Am I putting my hopes in chasing after wind and futility?" I joke about being on Oprah, but I don't place my hopes on that. But sometimes we need to step back and take an Ecclesiastes look at things. What under the sun will lead to happiness? Is it what we think, or something else?

[Handicop]

Nateskate: ["What under the sun will lead to happiness? Is it what we think, or something else?"]


A question that defies an answer, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.
I would have to say it's both, what we think and what we strive to achieve usually leads to the something else.

[Nateskate]

I'm thinking that fame might not be something I would want. My wife and I are very private people, and fame may also have a negative impact on our children. I have never been in the public eye as it were, but I have been mentioned in the papers a few times. I can't say I liked that very much.

It would be nice to earn enough money to secure a solid future for the kids, college funds would be the priority, maybe pay off the mortgage and buy a second car. Anything beyond that just boggles the mind.

The fantasy would be a home in Vermont and the ability to provide some assistance to family and a few good friends. It would also be nice to be able to write a big fat check to whatever charity I felt like helping out. Being disabled I can think of a few, and my police experience leaves me with a real soft spot for abused women and children. You would be amazed how many people suffer in silence, you would also be amazed at how patheticly limited are the public resources available to them.

My life experience in total has taught me to enjoy every day, to soak up all of the good that life has to offer. Fame and fortune is not part of that real world equation, but it sure would be nice! It's all gravy from where I sit.

Yes, you are so right. I once wrote a story for a disabled shut-in, who is a friend of mine, called, "The smallest box." It was somewhat of a fantasy where all people in the world are given a place, whether you'd like to think of it as a playground/realm of influence. But I'll call it the place of perceived opportunity.

And it seemed outwardly that people who were given the biggest box had the most opportunity to impact lives, and have a meaningful life themselves.

In the story, the person never realized from where she was at, she was impacting the entire world. Sometimes it was a word to a passerby that would not only impact that person, but countless others, who would in turn touch countless others in a domino effect. In the end, she had the realization that the box was not a limitation, but an opportunity. From in the box, she gained a perspective on what was important, and the meaning of life. In the beginning, she could never see that any good was coming from her life, but in the end, her eyes were opened to realize that in the scheme of eternity, she made a profound impact, where as people who were in the largest boxes became preoccupied with selfish pursuits, and playing games, and never really impacted anyone else in a positive way.

Some of the greatest books ever written, were written from someone inside of a prison, whether for spiritual or political reasons. And their profound books would never have been written if not for having all of their other options taken away from them. Or you have a Hawkings, who has had the biggest influence on many fields of science although a paraplegic.

I don't recommend requesting a smaller box just to be more instrumental in impacting lives, but it is amazing what people accomplish from where they are at, even if it is the smallest box.

[Nateskate]

Nateskate: ["What under the sun will lead to happiness? Is it what we think, or something else?"]


A question that defies an answer, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.
I would have to say it's both, what we think and what we strive to achieve usually leads to the something else.

It's a trick question. If all there is to life is what is under the sun, then as Tolkien points out with the Numenorians, the monuments we make will all eventually come crashing down. So, every endeavour we put our hands to is somehow forgotten.

However, if there is more to life than what is under the sun, which is a spiritual/metaphysical question, then not everything we do leads to futility and striving.

Solomon did everything under the sun"Playwrite/poet/author/architect/king. He was the wealthiest man ever in terms of comparative wealth. He wrote books that are still being read today. He put his hand to mirth, and madness, and every type of pleasure. He had 300 wives and 700 concubines. (You do the math). And in the end he said "It's all vanity and chasing after wind".

The point isn't that life is meaningless, but life without a higher perspective is meaningless. He never says, "Love is meaningless, or mercy, or forgiveness", but he does come down pretty hard on general vocations as being a source of happiness.

Obviously everyone doesn't see things through an eternal perspective, but insofar as "the greatest of these is love", I think most people can comprehend that it is better to truly love and be loved than to build an empire and to have never known love. And for those who do have an eternal perspective, then the weight of temporal accomplishments diminishes proportionally to the weight of eternal accomplishments.

[maestrowork]

I think in general, writers have nothing to worry about fame. Even JK Rowling -- despite occasional news about her baby and what not, most people just leave her alone. She did mention something like she couldn't write at coffeeshops anymore -- but that's a small price to pay, I suppose.

I think writers are very low on the fame totem pole.

[WerenCole]

Grandiose notions of impossibility
Create a facade, make it a reality
Find your niche, be content with contentment
Don't take your eye off the prize
Expect the reasonable, hold out for the gold nugget
Accept what you can't change
Always wear a smile
Don't stop what you love doing (keep writing regardless)

*************
I dream. . . I would like to see my novel in Barnes and Noble. I would like to buy a cottage in the moutains that I have to ski down the slopes to get to my car. . . and write the day away. . . yada yada yada. . . I have a profession in which I am skilled and, if I chose to do so, could move up to be one of the more prestigous chef's in my city. . . my dreams of being a writer exist and I still work work work. . . I research on how to get it done, how to get better, how to get published. . . until then, and even after I will live in an acceptable reality. . .

Weren

[WerenCole]

Oh, yeah. . . Fillanza. . . I am living part of your dream. . . I have a border collie:snoopy:


-W

[Mistook]

I think physical attractiveness brings many of the same responses as fame. For example, if you happen to be a gorgeous young woman, you may be completely unknown to the world at large, but if you walk out into public, you're likely to be turning heads, and getting preferential treatment from people who want to know you better, or simply bask in your glow.

You'll have people trying to impress you, and you'll also have your share of folks who put you on a pedistal, or get tongue tied around you, or who are jealous, or even who stalk you, and try to assasinate you. There will even be people who want to be your "handlers" and your "body guards".

(Of course its also true for attractive young men)

I think that this phenomenon has to do with the way we're wired. Attractiveness is something we all notice and react to weather we want to or not. I guess it's part of that whole darwinian survival genetic caveman crap.

I also think that fame plays on these same instincts. The celebrity may not be particulary attractive, but the fact that we can recognize the face as "desirable" (in the sense of well-known/well-loved) elicits the same type of responses.

---------

Now, all that having been said, I think that to say you don't desire any measure of fame, is about as believable as saying you don't desire to be physically attractive. Some people really don't care how they look, and many more don't see it as being worth the effort (excercise, diets, etc.) but I think most of us do spend a lot of time thinking about our appearance, even if it's simply looking for the right clothing to flatter an otherwise less than perfect body.

I don't think that's vanity. I think it's a basic component of human nature. and the desire for fame, or respect, or to feel we are "well loved" in our society, is also pretty basic to human nature.

[Writing Again]

You don't have to be attractive, Mr Mistook. I am hardly attractive, but most of my life I have lifted weights, practiced self defense, run marathons -- It is amazing what certain types of people will do to impress me. Why? I just do what is fun, and these are things I enjoy. Some people think these things make them better human beings and they try to impress me that they are as good or better than I am -- What a joke.

[Handicop]

Yes, you are so right. I once wrote a story for a disabled shut-in, who is a friend of mine, called, "The smallest box." It was somewhat of a fantasy where all people in the world are given a place, whether you'd like to think of it as a playground/realm of influence. But I'll call it the place of perceived opportunity.

And it seemed outwardly that people who were given the biggest box had the most opportunity to impact lives, and have a meaningful life themselves.

In the story, the person never realized from where she was at, she was impacting the entire world. Sometimes it was a word to a passerby that would not only impact that person, but countless others, who would in turn touch countless others in a domino effect. In the end, she had the realization that the box was not a limitation, but an opportunity. From in the box, she gained a perspective on what was important, and the meaning of life. In the beginning, she could never see that any good was coming from her life, but in the end, her eyes were opened to realize that in the scheme of eternity, she made a profound impact, where as people who were in the largest boxes became preoccupied with selfish pursuits, and playing games, and never really impacted anyone else in a positive way.

Some of the greatest books ever written, were written from someone inside of a prison, whether for spiritual or political reasons. And their profound books would never have been written if not for having all of their other options taken away from them. Or you have a Hawkings, who has had the biggest influence on many fields of science although a paraplegic.

I don't recommend requesting a smaller box just to be more instrumental in impacting lives, but it is amazing what people accomplish from where they are at, even if it is the smallest box.

That is so well said, I enjoyed reading it. Thanks Nate.

[Handicop]

Nate: King Solomon's wisdom.

He replied sheepishly. "I knew that."

[Nateskate]

That is so well said, I enjoyed reading it. Thanks Nate.

Glad to share my friend. As you know, those who partake of the fellowship of suffering, and those who share the burdens of those who suffer, share a certain bond and understanding, a wisdom borne in pain.

[maestrowork]

Confession. I'm not a bad looking guy, but I'm obvlious to other people's reaction to me. A few times when my friends and ex's told me: "Hey, someone is looking at you," I'd blush and say "Where? And why?" They thought I was coy but seriously I was clueless. Of course, if I see someone I like, I'd approach them (but not when I'm dating someone already). I'm just shy in person (you wouldn't know from my online peeing puppy persona).

If fame hits me in the face I wouldn't know how to react to it. Mind you, I do like some attention so I usually enjoy myself at press conferences or receptions after a performance -- it is nice to hear people tell me how much they enjoy my work. It's not an ego trip -- none of that "look at me, I'm a star." (I think that's what the danger of "fame" is -- people let it get to their heads, like they're more important than anyone else) But as a creative person, I do want my work to mean something, to some people. It's really silly for me to say, "I write only for myself." Of course I do write for myself, but that's not the point. The point is, as a published writer (or working actor/singer) my work should mean something to someone else. It touched my heart so much when one of my readers told me how much she identified with the story and how much it touched her. That made me feel so good, like I'd done something worthwhile and meaningful. That I'd made a difference.

And that's the power of literature. We love Romeo and Juliet not because we're in love with Shakespeare himself (obviously, we do admire him), but because the story speaks to us and makes a difference... and that's something we need to learn to do: separate ourselves from our work.

I think fame/making a mark/being known for our work, etc. can be a problem when we think WE are better than everyone else. When we become arrogant and blind. Like I said, if we can put everything in perspective, stay grounded, I think we'll be fine. And when we think of someone else instead of ourselves (what does it mean to my readers?) I think we'd have a better time dealing with it.

[Nateskate]

You don't have to be attractive, Mr Mistook. I am hardly attractive, but most of my life I have lifted weights, practiced self defense, run marathons -- It is amazing what certain types of people will do to impress me. Why? I just do what is fun, and these are things I enjoy. Some people think these things make them better human beings and they try to impress me that they are as good or better than I am -- What a joke.

This is also addressing Mr. Mistook. I perceived myself as an ugly duckling turned swan growing up. I went from not getting a second glance from females, to having them fawning over me (now in the increasingly distant past)

I perceived myself as without any talent, (I suck at everything) then became a scolarship athlete/ rock'n'roller whose guitar work was compared to David Gilmore/Jerry Garcia/Dwane Allman...etc.

Now I'm gray haired, overweight, on the physical decline. I can't play basketball if I wanted to, and don't play publically anymore. A year ago I lost use of my left thumb, and couldn't play guitar at all (Til after surgery) So, if you look at my life as a bell curve, I went from feeling like nothing, to perceiving some level of attractiveness and desirablity, to feeling pretty slumpy dumpy, frumpy.

If you look at the value of being desirable/attractive/talented, you may say correctly that there is something in us that longs for those things, but honestly, nothing beats being loved for the slumpy, dumpy, frumpy person you may be. A lot of attractive people are either shallow (Full of themselves) or insecure (Realizing the clock will strike twelve and they'll turn back into a pumpkin)

Perhaps someone who has been in both places (despised/admired) may realize that all of the glory of life fades, unless you pull a Hendrix or a Jim Morrison, and die at your peak. How many times have you watched a movie star in the declining years, and listened to someone next to you say, "He used to be so handsome...he hasn't aged well." Well, excuse me, at 65 being "Hot" shouldn't be your primary objective, and frankly, I look at these "used to be hots" and think, "I'd like to look that good at their age." So what does that make me?

Yes, many people would like their proverbial day in the sun, to win the talent and beauty lottery, but honestly, I do believe the Solomon perspective, "It's all vanity and chasing after wind". I'm far from the gorgeous guy I used to be. I'd be the last guy picked in a full court basketball game, and outwardly, I'm not desirable, BUT, and a big capitol BUT, I honestly like myself, something I never did before, and I know that people like me for who I am, not because of some image, or ability. It's better to be comfortable in your skin, than to be up on some pedastal.

It is a fortunate revelation.

[Mistook]

I honestly like myself, something I never did before, and I know that people like me for who I am, not because of some image, or ability. It's better to be comfortable in your skin, than to be up on some pedastal.


Well, this is an interesting way to have this discussion, because in this forum, we are all disembodied souls - our personalities pared down to a form of expression so rigid that we can't even use tone-of-voice to suggest what we truly mean.

I'm getting a bit of dump in my frump too these days, but my moment of glorious good looks was never pure. I was a fattish kid, then I grew and got skinny... just when the acne came along - and boy did I have it bad - total pizza face.

It took years of medical treatment to make the acne go away, and when it did, I started balding the very next day. Watching my hairline recede through my 20's, I always knew my days were numbered.

Still, as I was saying in the last post, no matter how sadly a person ages, we all continue to wash and groom ourselves, and dress for the occasions. Good looks may not be a sign of a good personality, but we all strive to express our inner sense of worth by our physical appearance.

We all want the world to *see* that we are good people. And yes, I've met a few shifty characters who assumed that if they dressed and appeared a certain way, they'd be mistaken for somebody they weren't. And that's a no no. But most of us are sincere.

And I agree it's what's underneath that counts when it comes to loving, or being loved, but I think this "underneath" is a thing that is constantly seeking to take physical forms.

For me, my writing is a physical form of my inner mind, and the real "dream" is simply to express it, and once that's done, I feel rewarded. Still, I'll never escape the desire to go that next step and try to show the object to other people. A work of art is kind of like a child, and we want it to go out into the world and do well for itself if possible.

[reph]

I was famous for a few days once – well, twice, sort of. Want to know what happens? People say false things about you in print. That doesn't feel good at all. I don't mean you get libeled. Journalists misreport what you told them in an interview, sometimes even putting words between quotation marks that you never said. They fill cognitive gaps with misinterpretations.

That's one reason I think fame isn't what it's cracked up to be. Start out wanting your true self recognized, end up getting misunderstood.

[jdkiggins]

I don't want to be famous. I simply want to be good at what I do. I'll keep :Hammer: at it until I get it right. Someday, I do hope someone will :poke: me and tell me one of my novel manuscripts will be in print before I :gone: disappear.

Joanne

[Mistook]

I was famous for a few days once – well, twice, sort of. Want to know what happens? People say false things about you in print. That doesn't feel good at all. I don't mean you get libeled. Journalists misreport what you told them in an interview, sometimes even putting words between quotation marks that you never said. They fill cognitive gaps with misinterpretations.

That's one reason I think fame isn't what it's cracked up to be. Start out wanting your true self recognized, end up getting misunderstood.




But doesn't that happen even when you're not famous? I've never come close to any kind of fame, and I'm all kinds of lousy with being misunderstood. You have to go in, knowing you're at the mercy of the spins and twists of mass gossip.

I guess the first trick is to divorce yourself from your "Image", and view the latter as another product. The second trick is to keep control of that image.

[reph]

But doesn't that happen even when you're not famous?
Yep. Nobodies are misunderstood, too. I meant, don't imagine that fame, in the sense of having thousands of strangers know your name because they've read it somewhere, will be personally satisfying.

[maestrowork]

You know what's the funniest thing? The person who cares about someone's fame the most is that someone. I've found out that most people don't really care if you're famous or not.

It might be a fleeting moment of "Wow, I just shook hands with so-and-so" or "hey, so-and-so did that" or "can you believe so-and-so?" But they'll go on with their lives and you're just an anecdote. An interesting little topic at the water cooler (including this one). Or when you died, someone might say "oh, that's so sad."

Don't take fame too seriously.

[Mistook]

don't imagine that fame, in the sense of having thousands of strangers know your name because they've read it somewhere, will be personally satisfying.


How many thousands are we talking about?

[HConn]

I meant, don't imagine that fame, in the sense of having thousands of strangers know your name because they've read it somewhere, will be personally satisfying.

Yeah.

That's what the groupies are for.

[Mistook]

Yeah.

That's what the groupies are for.


:ROFL:

[oswann]

Being understood or not understood or even misunderstood is part of the life of every creative professional. What people think once the article is in the public domain is entirely their own business. It may correspond to what I (the creator) think or it may not, it makes no difference. The process is finished. I can't control what people think and wouldn't want to either.


Os.

[Nateskate]

If fame hits me in the face I wouldn't know how to react to it. Mind you, I do like some attention so I usually enjoy myself at press conferences or receptions after a performance -- it is nice to hear people tell me how much they enjoy my work. It's not an ego trip -- none of that "look at me, I'm a star." (I think that's what the danger of "fame" is -- people let it get to their heads, like they're more important than anyone else) But as a creative person, I do want my work to mean something, to some people. It's really silly for me to say, "I write only for myself." Of course I do write for myself, but that's not the point. The point is, as a published writer (or working actor/singer) my work should mean something to someone else. It touched my heart so much when one of my readers told me how much she identified with the story and how much it touched her. That made me feel so good, like I'd done something worthwhile and meaningful. That I'd made a difference.

I think fame/making a mark/being known for our work, etc. can be a problem when we think WE are better than everyone else. When we become arrogant and blind. Like I said, if we can put everything in perspective, stay grounded, I think we'll be fine. And when we think of someone else instead of ourselves (what does it mean to my readers?) I think we'd have a better time dealing with it.

Hope you don't mind if I take what you said and elaborate some thoughts on it, not for you, but for others who might read this.

Before I said that only megalomaniacs are completely comfortable with adulation. I think most people feel it is a cure to obscurity, or a feeling of "I don't matter/people don't care about me". So, you end up with a pendulum where people shoot for invisibility or the limelight.

Their expectations are generally different than the reality they will find. Many people retreat from fame once they realize that they lose privacy, and people put unrealistic expectations on them. There really is a healthy balance, but people shoot for the extremes.

In my "Did anyone tell you you're gorgeous" years, which don't last that long in the grand scheme of things, I never felt comfortable with that. What do you do with, "Did anyone ever tell you..." Well if you answer "Yes", you are now a conceited snob. If you say "No", you are a liar. If you end up fishing for compliments you feel pathetic. But then again, if you feel the need to be complimented and aren't, you feel shallow for being addicted to people's praise.

If I borrow from memories of my own insecurities, I remember the dynamics. In my "I feel invisible years" (High School) or worse, "I feel loathsome years" (Jr High years), I thought being cute/adorable/gorgeous meant something, and desired it. Even when I got positive feedback in 9th or 10th grade, I didn't believe it and thought girls were just teasing me. Those earlier remarks "Did anyone ever tell you that you are ugly..." were like an indelible stamp, that I wanted to erase at any cost. But it was not a healthy longing, rather it was a needy driven longing.

If your selfworth/self love is dependent on any external, you have become a performer, who must always dress for the audience, and cater to their whims. And they are whimsicle. The same people who would crown you king will crucify you a week later if you fail to meet their expectations. People are fickle.

It sounds trivial to say, "You have to like and love yourself..." But its the only way to stay sane. And you can't do that if you are constantly performing for a crowd, because you become a feedback addict. "Oh, someone didn't praise me today...maybe I'm losing it....maybe its midnight and the coach will turn to a pumpkin, and tomorrow I'll be invisible again, or worse, loathsome again.

But therein is the art, you can't just "Will yourself" to be whole like a blink from "I dream of Jeanie". You really have to take a course in "Why in the world am I this way...what makes me tick." It takes insight.

[Nateskate]

Well, this is an interesting way to have this discussion, because in this forum, we are all disembodied souls - our personalities pared down to a form of expression so rigid that we can't even use tone-of-voice to suggest what we truly mean.

I'm getting a bit of dump in my frump too these days, but my moment of glorious good looks was never pure. I was a fattish kid, then I grew and got skinny... just when the acne came along - and boy did I have it bad - total pizza face.

It took years of medical treatment to make the acne go away, and when it did, I started balding the very next day. Watching my hairline recede through my 20's, I always knew my days were numbered.

Still, as I was saying in the last post, no matter how sadly a person ages, we all continue to wash and groom ourselves, and dress for the occasions. Good looks may not be a sign of a good personality, but we all strive to express our inner sense of worth by our physical appearance.

We all want the world to *see* that we are good people. And yes, I've met a few shifty characters who assumed that if they dressed and appeared a certain way, they'd be mistaken for somebody they weren't. And that's a no no. But most of us are sincere.

And I agree it's what's underneath that counts when it comes to loving, or being loved, but I think this "underneath" is a thing that is constantly seeking to take physical forms.

For me, my writing is a physical form of my inner mind, and the real "dream" is simply to express it, and once that's done, I feel rewarded. Still, I'll never escape the desire to go that next step and try to show the object to other people. A work of art is kind of like a child, and we want it to go out into the world and do well for itself if possible.

Wow. Let me say something. If I met you, and you had Brad Pitt good looks, it would not impress me as much as what you said there. In fact, it is the fact that you are open and honest enough to express insecurities and who you are and what you think-that impresses me.

In a sense, its a step past the shallow relationships we live with. I'm not a Shallow Ender, and I suppose you'll find more Deep Enders here because of the nature of these boards. Deep Enders are people who prefer depth to a shallow relationship. We like to know what people really think, and hate the pretense and games and "Hows the weather" conversations.

On some level, I think you have those games, even on boards, because no one can see you unless you unmask yourself. And on some level, I think we'd like the illusion that our fictitious (Spell checker where are you?) character who writes. It's some wisened beautiful person. Well, excuse the cyclops eye, but that's not who we really are. We are people full of flaws, and frankly, I'm glad some people are willing to not pretend to be the great and powerful OZ. There's something beautiful about sharing in the flaws of humanity.

[Nateskate]

Being understood or not understood or even misunderstood is part of the life of every creative professional. What people think once the article is in the public domain is entirely their own business. It may correspond to what I (the creator) think or it may not, it makes no difference. The process is finished. I can't control what people think and wouldn't want to either.


Os.

This is reality. And I think it will be a cold slap in the face and will probably feel somewhat like high school all over again to be criticized sharply in public. Something to look forward too I should imagine.

[reph]

How many thousands are we talking about?
Type your name into Google and multiply the number of resulting hits by, oh, I don't know, maybe 100, on the conservative assumption that each mention in a newspaper or blog reached 100 readers.

Does 2000 feel better than 1000? Does 1000 feel better than 10? Do any of these numbers feel good at all? Why or why not? Discuss.

[Nateskate]

Type your name into Google and multiply the number of resulting hits by, oh, I don't know, maybe 100, on the conservative assumption that each mention in a newspaper or blog reached 100 readers.

Does 2000 feel better than 1000? Does 1000 feel better than 10? Do any of these numbers feel good at all? Why or why not? Discuss.

In reality, it depends on your perspective. From an emotional standpoint alone, it (numbers) should matter least, but it often matters the most to our ego. But numbers also represent other things that may have a practical benefit.

[maestrowork]

10,000 feels better than 100... if you want to sell books. ;) Branding and name recognition could move books fast.

[Mistook]

Wow. Let me say something. If I met you, and you had Brad Pitt good looks, it would not impress me as much as what you said there. In fact, it is the fact that you are open and honest enough to express insecurities and who you are and what you think-that impresses me.


The feeling is mutual ;)

[Mistook]

Does 2000 feel better than 1000? Does 1000 feel better than 10? Do any of these numbers feel good at all? Why or why not? Discuss.


I guess I would say there's an upper limit to the number of individuals I can possibly imagine, say a thousand. So if If I'm humiliated in front of a million people, that's still only a thousand in my mind.

Twenty or thirty seems very frightening. I imagine, if you can survive the rejection of thirty people inside a coffeehouse, all of whom you either know, or wanted to know, and still hold your head up the next day and move on, you can probably hack being famous.

I mean, if you flop in a coffeehouse, you proabably go home to an empty apartment to choke on it alone. If you get bashed on national television, that's a much wider audience, but there's at least some fan base still singing your praises through the tough times.

----------------

Still I get your point about being misrepresented. I'm pretty sure Kurt Cobain killed himself for just this reason. He was saddled with an image that turned out to be nearly the opposite of what he stood for.

He came from a punk/avant-garde background where the ethos was to buck the establishment and never "sell-out". His fame balooned out of control and there he was, singing to packed stadiums about how teeny boppers are shallow, and all the teeny boppers in the stands were cheering him on like just another pop idol, having no idea what his lyrics meant.

In his mind, he'd become the thing he most despised, and there was only one way, by that point, to get off the merry go round.

-----------------

Anyway, what was my point? Er... just that it helps to know what you're getting into. If fame is the game, you have to have a tight grip on your image, and protective gear for your gonads.

[Nateskate]

I don't want to be famous. I simply want to be good at what I do. I'll keep :Hammer: at it until I get it right. Someday, I do hope someone will :poke: me and tell me one of my novel manuscripts will be in print before I :gone: disappear.

Joanne

That's cool. Being somewhat of a perfectionist, although a sloppy disorganized one, getting things perfect seems out of my reach. I think I have to get to the point where I'm satisfied with "good enough".

I'm much more likely to do that with music than with writing though. However, I stopped playing publically years ago, and I turned from wanting to record to writing. Writing a novel (for publication) is sometimes intimidating. In an old thread I said that great writers intimidate me, because I measure myself by their voice, which I can't duplicate. But terrible writers make me feel like "Hey, if they can do it, why can't I". No, I'm not shooting to be the next "Terrible Writer", but someone who published a great story. Yet, I'm not objective when I read my own writing. I'm not sure I can ever measure up. But perhaps readers will see me in a more favorable light than I see myself.

With a guitar, just give me a blackface fender super reverb (vintage-not re-issue), a good strat, and a pedal or two, and I know I sound good. Writing, I feel like humpty dumpty when I do my re-writes, cleaning up a mess, and wondering if I can put it back together again. But at times I get encouraged seeing parts of my story that I think are really good.

[Nateskate]

I guess I would say there's an upper limit to the number of individuals I can possibly imagine, say a thousand. So if If I'm humiliated in front of a million people, that's still only a thousand in my mind.

Twenty or thirty seems very frightening. I imagine, if you can survive the rejection of thirty people inside a coffeehouse, all of whom you either know, or wanted to know, and still hold your head up the next day and move on, you can probably hack being famous.

I mean, if you flop in a coffeehouse, you proabably go home to an empty apartment to choke on it alone. If you get bashed on national television, that's a much wider audience, but there's at least some fan base still singing your praises through the tough times.

----------------

Still I get your point about being misrepresented. I'm pretty sure Kurt Cobain killed himself for just this reason. He was saddled with an image that turned out to be nearly the opposite of what he stood for.

He came from a punk/avant-garde background where the ethos was to buck the establishment and never "sell-out". His fame balooned out of control and there he was, singing to packed stadiums about how teeny boppers are shallow, and all the teeny boppers in the stands were cheering him on like just another pop idol, having no idea what his lyrics meant.

In his mind, he'd become the thing he most despised, and there was only one way, by that point, to get off the merry go round.

Mr Mistook, just from seeing your posts, I feel much better is in store for you than obscurity. You already have an audience (fairly large) that enjoy what you say. I do, and from the number of people poking their noses into these threads, we already have an audience that are somewhat enjoying the ride. This is one big coffee house, and you have some pretty classy people here that appreciate your contributions.

This is not directed at you. But since you brought him up, I thought I'd say something for the over the shoulder readers:

People like Kurt Cobain are who they are because of internal wiring. He's someone who wrestled with self-loathing, but what you consider to be the cause was more of a symptom. I've spent a great deal of time studying why people are who they are. Even his heroin addiction was more of a symptom than the cause of his deep depression. His self-criticism was much more likely there at a very early age. People with a healthy self-veiw generally do not wake up one day and hate themselves. Normally, you can trace those really deep-seeded feelings back to childhood issues, not something what happens in your middle teens to twenties, such as one of those evicerating moments of humility. Someone with a good self-view bounces back. Someone who has issues may not, because that insult taps into something that's already deep inside a person, (sets them off).

KCs pain had to tap into pain that traced to the earliest years when personality is formed. Why? People who have a healthy self-view are pretty resiliant and bounce back. They don't tank when they get dumped. But if someone had abandonment issues and lack of nurture, and finds love, and that loved one rejects them, their world crashes in. Why? They were more prone to putting all their eggs in that one basket. Losing that basket was more than they could take, not because they couldn't get another basket, but because it reminded them of something they felt as a child, "Not wanted, reject, flawed..." I'm not saying I know what KCs issues were, but I've seen enough KCs to know they were there. A lot of heroin addicts were healthier than he was.

And the good news is that people who have that kind of internal wiring can change if they gain insight. He just got himself into a mental place of feeling hopeless, and unfortunately didn't find that.

[BlueTexas]

I was famous for a few days once – well, twice, sort of. Want to know what happens? People say false things about you in print. That doesn't feel good at all. I don't mean you get libeled. Journalists misreport what you told them in an interview, sometimes even putting words between quotation marks that you never said. They fill cognitive gaps with misinterpretations.



I'm not famous, but I was in the newspaper last year, and this is so true! You can say a million intelligent things ( or think you have!), but if you mention Charles Manson and Little Mary Sunshine in the same sentence, this is what will make it into print. The cute innocent looking little reporter will twist what you say until it sounds like it will sell more papers.

[Mistook]

The cute innocent looking little reporter will twist what you say until it sounds like it will sell more papers.

Unfortunately, that's what you have to have in focus when you step into the public arena.

[Mistook]

Mr Mistook, just from seeing your posts, I feel much better is in store for you than obscurity. You already have an audience (fairly large) that enjoy what you say. I do, and from the number of people poking their noses into these threads, we already have an audience that are somewhat enjoying the ride. This is one big coffee house, and you have some pretty classy people here that appreciate your contributions.


Well thank you, and again I'd say the feeling is mutual. In this big coffeehouse, I notice that you make the rounds from table to table, but you seem more in your element when you set up camp at a booth in the corner and let the rest of us gather round to chat, like we're doing here.

I like a good Nateskate thread, because you encourage people to go deep, and you're a great "moderator" of your own discussions. Not to disrespect the true Mods around here, I'm just saying once you start a thread, you're very attentive to it, and you have a way of... keeping it interesting.

As for my own "popularity" around this joint, I'd say my posts tend to skew a bit more... er... obnoxious... than I'd like. I guess there will always be this chip growing out of my shoulder, and I know it can be irritating, but I kinda hope in the grand scheme of things I'm not such a bad guy.

--------

As for Cobain, I agree with your general assessment. With a person like that, of course, I don't know if you could ever untangle the roots of everything. Heroine and coke (or crack) are very big drugs in ghettos, but they're also very big on the rock'n'roll celebrity scene.

It would be hard to say whether he brought heroine with him from his salad days, or whether it was pushed on him at glamorous after-hours parties. The fact that he ever tried it, says something about his character. Either he was totally ignorant of the dangers, or he had a self destructive bent and avidly sought the danger.

Then again, once he's hooked, it's hard to say how much of his behavior was due to his own core personality, and how much was simply the drugs doing what they do to anybody.

But one thing's for sure - Cobain was simply not prepared for the amount of fame he acheived. Not physically, or psychologically.

[Nateskate]

As for my own "popularity" around this joint, I'd say my posts tend to skew a bit more... er... obnoxious... than I'd like. I guess there will always be this chip growing out of my shoulder, and I know it can be irritating, but I kinda hope in the grand scheme of things I'm not such a bad guy.

--------

As for Cobain, I agree with your general assessment. With a person like that, of course, I don't know if you could ever untangle the roots of everything. Heroine and coke (or crack) are very big drugs in ghettos, but they're also very big on the rock'n'roll celebrity scene.

It would be hard to say whether he brought heroine with him from his salad days, or whether it was pushed on him at glamorous after-hours parties. The fact that he ever tried it, says something about his character. Either he was totally ignorant of the dangers, or he had a self destructive bent and avidly sought the danger.

Then again, once he's hooked, it's hard to say how much of his behavior was due to his own core personality, and how much was simply the drugs doing what they do to anybody.

But one thing's for sure - Cobain was simply not prepared for the amount of fame he acheived. Not physically, or psychologically.

You obviously aren't a bad guy. You are also encouraging. As for chips on shoulders, you might say we are "Chips'r'us"

Most people have Chips of one kind or another, especially deep people. Shallow people tend to prefer avoiding confrontations, so they stick to safe subjects. Deep people are almost always looking and searching for answers to puzzles. That puzzle is either "Why am I who I am", or "Why is everyone else who they are?"

People who crave fame, generally do so as a cure to feeling invisible. Many famous people were invisible growing up. Countless actors and actresses were geeky kids, especially some of the deeper ones. Why the deeper ones? They have experienced more emotional turbulance, and can throw that into their craft. They know what rejection or being ostracised looks like.

But if someone "Craves" fame, then generally, it is not because of having a feeling of well-being, but a desire for a feeling of well being. Then you throw them into the actual place where they are in front of millions of people, with a million expectations, demands, time constraints, and a judgmental newstand, they find that fame wasn't a cure. It caused a whole bunch of other issues to arise. And so you have these meltdowns.

I don't know KC, but from a few moments observation, the issues are either anger or fear. And generally you get a mix of the two. Fears generally come from lack of nurture, not having stability, and uncertainty. Naomi Campbell was on t.v and when she described her childhood, she had such deep abondonment issues. Never knew her father, and her mother had a career that took her on the road. Signal: "My mom loves her career more than she loves me..." That may not have been the truth, but it is how a child's brain processes circumstances like that.

So, you have this beautiful woman, and honestly, I think she's a wonderful person, who has these monster moments of explosive anger. Why? Deep down it's a fear of being alone, even in a crowd and wanting to be understood. So, throw her in a crowd of shallow people, and she'll constantly be disappointed.

What was KCs issues? I don't know, but I know he absolutely had them. Honestly, if you remove anger and fear, you've just cured 90 something percent of all mental health issues, because that is the core. Most personality disorders can be traced back to abuse or neglect. Anxiety is often connected to Depression, which is almost always a combination of anger. And generally you can trace bitterness back to resentment. "the world is unfair...I'll never get what I want or need."

If you trace that back, you almost always find its core is at childhood. And obviously, its not enough to trace it back, but to undo it. That's where our core values are learned, and I mean things like, "My needs will be meet...I can take risks and I can succeed" or "No one cares about me...the world isn't safe...I'll always fail." Generally speaking, those beliefs are set by age six, and set in stone well before a person is out of Jr. High.

People may not think that way on the surface. But you can generally see it, and if you peel back the layers, they will see it.

[Mistook]

Cobain's suicide really resonates with me because I was just a few years younger than him, and at that time, had all the same dreams. I was in a band, and we were of course hoping to be famous.

People used to say I looked like him, and that my music sounded like him, which really irked me because I sort of had my look and my sound all worked out before he ever hit the scene. Now here he was kinda "taking my place" in the pantheon of rock gods, and making it seem as though I was just a copy cat.

I remember almost feeling glad the day I heard he killed himself, such was my envy, or perhaps it was a competitive streak. But in the years that followed, I really came to identify with the guy.

If you look at his lyrics, there's a bit of self-loathing in there, but by far the real issue for him was one of feeling prepetually misunderstood. He was angry at the whole world for not being loving enough, but the hard-edged music and the cynnical lyrics seemed to suggest he was all for rage and hatred.

He became an icon for air-heads and jerks, the exact demographic that he despised, and when that happened, he felt utterly defeated. When you're at the top of the world and still nobody understands you... where do you go?

Self-loathing eventually won the day. In his suicide note he says to his daughter that she'll be better off without him. He's afraid that she'll turn into some kind of monster, with him in her life. If only the bastard had come to his senses.

*Ahem! Okay, how's that for a depressing story of fame and the fast lane?

[Nateskate]

He became an icon for air-heads and jerks, the exact demographic that he despised, and when that happened, he felt utterly defeated. When you're at the top of the world and still nobody understands you... where do you go?

Self-loathing eventually won the day. In his suicide note he says to his daughter that she'll be better off without him. He's afraid that she'll turn into some kind of monster, with him in her life. If only the bastard had come to his senses.

He became a spokesman for the frustrated. No doubt he struck a cord with "Teen angst".

You might say, I'm a little bit older. But I'd have related to him in my own teen angst years. I knew depression very well at one time in my life. However, when you look at a KC, you see someone who was very good at stating the problem superficially. "Life sucks...people never understand you...we are a throw away generation..."

I said "Superficially," because frankly, he doesn't really comprehend the big picture. Secondly, its one thing to even understand the problem as "The big picture", and another thing all together to have any solutions. Many icons of their time were people who were simply disenfranchised, and had a good way of expressing that.

John Lennon was there, but as he got older, he became more in touch with the actual issues, and stopped seeing the world as a frustrated young man, but somewhat more maturely. So, he stopped kicking and thrashing, "I don't believe in anyone but me....Yoko and me..." and he became more pragmatic and understanding. Yet, I don't think he ever found a solution.

Since we are talking dysfunction here, some of this will not apply to everyone, but those who were born and raised in a world of dysfunction. In a sence, there is a resentment, "If...if...if...if I was born in a family like the Cleavers (as in leave it to beaver...I wouldn't...I wouldn't...I wouldn't...be so blanked-up. I'd have made something with my life...yada yada yada....been there, thought that. If I didn't have low self-esteem. If I had confidence...If I had the advantages of...

As you get older, you can hang onto resentment forever, feeling like your future was stolen from you by your past-that you are not what you were intended to be all along. You had ideals, and wanted to be superior to your dad and mom, and not make their mistakes. Then you see how tough life can be, and realize to some degree that they were simply screwed up people who had their own resentments. So, you either continue the spiral, and realize that some day, your own children will be viewing you with the same resentment that you viewed your own parents.

And if that happens, this cycle never ends. Screwed up people beget screwed up people, who beget screwed up people.

Well, we have knowledge, wisdom, insight and understanding at our disposal, so that we can figure things out, so we don't have to repeat the mistakes of the past, so the proverbial buck of "Blame the parents" stops here, and a new destiny is realized.

This is just a broad generalization. Most people get stuck in a rut because they are convinced that their futile thinking works for them somehow, "I deserved to be pissed off. If you knew what I went through...what so and so did to me..." Well that thinking hasn't freed you up for the past thirty years. Do you think it will get you over the hump by the time you are fifty? Sixty?

Well, people who feel that way don't tend to grow very much. They stay in a broken record loop, repeating the same verse over and over: A life of broken relationships that don't last long...1,2,3,4...inability to hold down jobs 1,2,3,4...inablity to face the pressures required to succeed at anything worthwhile. And so, they hear that voice, "Why am I so screwed up...what's wrong with me." They see a string of failures and mistakes and so, they get more resentful.

Every victory and every failure begins with what we believe and what we think. Two people with the exact same tools. One succeeds every time, one fails every time. Why are some people perpetual enigmas? Growth requires change in thinking. I'll just spell one thing out that I've observed and frankly, I'm convinced. This is just one insight. People have to learn that anger based emotions are like poison period. I'm not saying we can live without any anger. Obviously we can't. I'm referring to prolonged anger issues: Resentment, bitterness, unforgiveness, judgmental spirit.

This issue alone is where many people feail. They want to hold onto a grudge like its a badge of honor, "But you don't know what I went throught...I have abandonment issues...abuse issues."

If they understood life, there are a lot of people with abandonment and abuse issues. Not all are in the same rut. If you look at those who move on and those who stay in the same pit, the more they hang on to anger, the longer they stay in the same pit.

These need to be convinced, they don't have to give up their anger because their parents deserved it, chances are they didn't, or because their coach or teacher or all the people who screwed them deserved it. Rather, they need to do it for themselves, and their children, and all that they want to accomplish in life.

That may seem hard to do, but generally all thinking patterns, ingrained or not, are learned and reinforced. And people don't realize that if you change your thinking, you change your actions. If you change your actions, you change your outcomes. So, much of life is cause and effect, sowing and reaping, what goes around comes around, and Karma-light (insofar as in this life you pay for mistakes-although I don't believe you are doomed to if you figure things out, and I don't believe in reincarnation, not that that has anything to do with this discussion)

KC was not beyond hope. He simply didn't know that and didn't realize he could feel good again. His daughter wasn't better off without him, and will likely require some wise adults to help her through the fact that her father did what he did. No one is better off dead. They just need to believe that their life has meaning and purpose. Honestly, I've known countless people that have suffered terribly in this life. But in the same breath, I've seen people do amazing things despite physical suffering. I say that because the human spirit can endure virtually anything, that is of course a healthy human spirit. But a wounded and grieved spirit, who can bear it?

[Mistook]

His daughter wasn't better off without him, and will likely require some wise adults to help her through the fact that her father did what he did.
Like Courtney Love? Hoo boy! :crazy: Good luck.

[Nateskate]

Like Courtney Love? Hoo boy! :crazy: Good luck.

I'm actually sympathetic to Courtney Love. She's sometimes insightful, sometimes self-destructive. But deep down, I think she's got a decent heart.

Rule of thumb. Screwed up people generally marry other screwed up people. Generally speaking, they felt beat up by life, and want a sympathetic ear, not a live in Pharisee. They look for someone who is sensitive, and understands them, their frustrations and pains. Who is less judgmental than someone who is in the same boat (Although some who are in the same boat are extremely judgmental). Well, it might not be the exact same boat, but one's parents might have abandoned them, the other's abused them. And they think they found a knight in shining armor who sees their pain and sympethizes. They can TALK ABOUT the stuff they burried and hid from others. That's extremely seductive and attractive if you've felt alone on an island all your life.

Well, you throw them together and they can be like a match and gasoline. They love each other, but drive each other up the wall. Nothing like marriage or having children to stir up the screwdupidness in ones soul.

Honestly, some people are outwardly holding it together, but the pressures of life will bring up the junk inside, the insecurities, the anger, the expectations and unfulfilled expectations.

Then they go from "You are wonderful...you are so sensitive to..." "What the blankity blank is wrong with you...you are too damn sensitive."

Oh, but there's hope for them. Generally speaking, screwd up people have a lot of pluses, and if they gain insight and get emotional healing, actually make great spouses.

I just realized I say "Generally" far too much.

[Sunny7L]

A dream is a fantasy, something you would like to happen but don't have much faith in. Goals are the things that you can make come true. Not to say that a dream can't become a goal but so long as you set it in the realm of impossiblility you're not likely to ever even think you can really do it.

[Mistook]

A dream is a fantasy, something you would like to happen but don't have much faith in. Goals are the things that you can make come true. Not to say that a dream can't become a goal but so long as you set it in the realm of impossiblility you're not likely to ever even think you can really do it.

That's very true. In my rock and roll days, my brother and I had a band, and for him the sky was the limit. We weren't just good, we were the best band that had or would ever exist, and we weren't just going to have a lot of fans, we were going to unite the entire planet in the love of a single band. We were going to hold all twenty spots of the top twenty songs for so long that they'd have to make a separate billboard just for us so that the other bands could finally get noticed again.

And it was all going to happen "by this time next year, you just watch!"

The way it was going to happen was... some mystery millionaire would hear the music and just fall down at our feet and pay for everything it took to record and promote our albums and send us on tour. We'd of course earn it all back for him in spades. They'd have to start a separate economy for us, that's how rich we were always just about to be.

You can't fault the guy for being negative, that's for sure. ;)

[Nateskate]

I'm glad you guys brought this topic up. I know some people who are extremely successful, and as many who've never accomplished anything. And I used to wonder why some people make it and others never make it. Here's some observations.

Realistic dreams don't necessarily have to be small dreams. Fulfilling small dreams allows you to dream bigger ones.

In a sense, you can say there are two primary types of people: dreamers and doers. Some people have great ideas, but their bent isn't towards doing. Others are constantly doing. They just don't have any novel thoughts.

You need to mix these qualities to do anything of value. A dreamer has a tendency to live in a fantasy world and because they never come out of the clouds, may never accomplish a single thing. Their dreams are like a drug that take them away from drudgery, but they never take any steps towards fulfilling them.

That doesn't mean they don't do anything at all. Rather, their life is filled with half-hearted attempts, and unfinished projects, and more talk than action.

Doers do what they set out to accomplish. They tend to have a set of short term goals, such as to fix this or that, or to add a garden, or a shed. You'd think they'd be the successful ones. But many of these doers do what they think to do, but they just don't do anything of value, because they can't put together any useful dreams-novel ideas. They just plod along from one meaningless task to the next.

People who accomplish great things blend the two together. They have a dream, but they do something that your typical dreamer always fails to do.

1) They realize that unless they stop wasting time (Since we have music in common) playing air guitar, pretending to be a rock star jumping off of their Marshal stacks in front of the screaming fans. Get Wisdom: They diligently study success and failure by contacting people in the industry who've made it or failed, to ask "Why? How?" There's no greater short cut to success than the wisdom of others. Get educated. Talk to people in the industry. Volunteer to be a roady for a famous band/or to be a runner for a music studio (the guy who gets coffee and donuts) to learn ins and outs. Talk to people from bands that made it or had made it. Generally if they were great once, they love to talk about themselves.

2) Set out doable goals. "You can't make it if you don't get money to buy equiptment. That might mean getting a job to pay for the equiptment. They don't donate monitors and mixers. Put together good songs that the band can nail every time they play. Some bands are just sloppy. They sound good at times, but day in and day out they aren't consistant. Then find a manager WITH A PROVEN TRACK RECORD. Other wise you've wasted your time. Nothing worse than a bad manager. A good manager will work on ways to get exposure, and do it. You have to play some not so cool places to get exposure. You have to play alot. So if one guy has other plans and can't play, then you have to cut and run and find someone else to take their place.

3) I forgot-self examination and honest appraisal. If the lead singer sounds like gueese farting on a cloudy day (quote-Leo Kotke), you'd better get a new goose. Look at American idol. Many people are convinced they got what it takes. Few do. Some front men are boring, and monotone. Having the right front man is essential because everyone is looking at them.

If you have what it takes, and plot a course, and lay out goals, and hold yourself to them and timelines. You can make it.

4) You have to make sure the people in your group are all on the same page. If someone wants to play weddings and have weekends off, you might as well get them out of the band. Everyone has to have the same dream. If one guy is planning to get married and move across country, it doesn't matter if they are the best guitarist/drummer/keyboard player, they are useless to you. Why wait and then have to change. Make sure everyone is equally committed.

5) Willingness to pay the price. If everyone thinks this is going to be easy, and you just have to show up at a garage and in three weeks, you'll be playing at Madison Square Garden, then its not going to happen. Great bands have to put in a great deal of time and energy and sacrifice. They have to stick it out.
Generally speaking these principles apply to any facet of life. Add to your dreams- Learn wisdom/get discipline/use diligence/expect to sacrifice/ make a plan/surround yourself with quality people who will help you reach your goal/eliminate bad habits and time waste/stay focused-not allowing distractions to pull you away.

If you do these your chance for success multiples. You go from dreaming to success. Whether you want to open a restaurant or become governor, this applies. Those who fail to apply these to their dreams will likely never accomplish their dreams. They just dream and dream and dream. And in the end they are sitting in a barbershop next to another dreamer and say, "I coulda done that- I was just as good as they are, if not better" "If you could have, then why didn't you?" "Awe shut up..."

That's not where I want to be.

[maestrowork]

Dream grand.
Work hard.
Take small steps.


You think Jamie Foxx won his Oscar without dreaming? But do you really think he got there without working hard, and taking baby steps? He started as a skit comedian. Then did really bad movies. He wasn't very well respected. But he continued to dream and work hard. He switched gears (probably a good agent, too) and started doing drama -- probably took many, many, many acting classes.

Small steps. Big goals. Add some talent and luck. Grab the opportunities when they come to you, BUT NOT BEFORE you've worked hard to prepare yourself first.

Dream, baby, dream.

But never stop working hard.

[James D. Macdonald]

1) Aim high.

2) When the guys who have been to the top of the mountain tell you "You're going to need a parka and an oxygen bottle," go get a parka and an oxygen bottle.

[Nateskate]

Rewrites are freezing my tail off.

[WSB]

This is such an awesome thread, and I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who resists the thought of fame! I've never understood that whole hero-worship of celebrities anyway. Sure, I admire plenty of actors, musicians, writers and more, but I have no desire to find out where they live or stalk them while they're buying groceries. In fact, I can guarantee that if I ever saw a celebrity out in public, I wouldn't approach them. Just because I'm sure they get sick of the lack of privacy.

Anyway, I don't want fame. I want to stay happily hidden behind my monitor, churning out words that can change the world. (okay, maybe not, hehe) But if I ever do reach the point where I'm required to do public speaking or appearances, I can tell you I will resist, resist, resist. I'll do it only if I have NO choice in the matter. (i.e. do it or die, professionally)

But I wanted to comment on why so many artists, authors and famous people seem so screwed up. Drugs, drinking, chaotic relationships, etc. I've often wondered if it's because creative people feel things so much more strongly than the "average" person. We're more sensitive than the average Joe. Average Joe just blindly goes to work and comes home, and does what he needs to do. He lives without wondering why he's living. We (creative types) agonize over things, overreact to things, look beneath the surface, behind the shadows. Everything is a drama, or comedy, or worse. We can't just "live", we need to analyze, explore, create. Or maybe it's just me. :idea: I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always wondered about this.


Wendy

[MacAllister]

I've often wondered if it's because creative people feel things so much more strongly than the "average" person. We're more sensitive than the average Joe. Average Joe just blindly goes to work and comes home, and does what he needs to do. He lives without wondering why he's living. We (creative types) agonize over things, overreact to things, look beneath the surface, behind the shadows. Everything is a drama, or comedy, or worse. We can't just "live", we need to analyze, explore, create.

Hmm. I think everyone feels these things. Creative people are just driven to express those feelings differently.

That's why "Average Joe" is one of our readers--and when we succeed, it's because he says to himself, "Yeah! That's exactly how it feels..."

[maestrowork]

Hmm. I think everyone feels these things. Creative people are just driven to express those feelings differently.

That's why "Average Joe" is one of our readers--and when we succeed, it's because he says to himself, "Yeah! That's exactly how it feels..."

I agree... I think the creative types are more "screwed up" (AS IF the Average Joe is not screwed up either... hmmm...) because of the level of "acceptance" or "validation" or "self-actualization" or whatever you call it.

I mean, when an Average Joe does a good job, he gets a pat on the back from the boss and coworkers, and he gets to keep his job and maybe a nice year-end bonus. He's happy.

An artist? Who is his boss? Who is his coworker? It aint the publisher or label or agent. It's his audience/readers. The "pat on the back" is multiplied by a thousand, a million fold. So is the "criticism." And that's a lot of pressure. When your album or TV show flop, or your book tanks... the failure can feel monumental. Suddenly it's not just a job anymore. You don't just have "one boss and a handful of coworkers" who hate you. You have thousands or even millions of people who hate you. Look at the Janet Jackson Super Bowl hoopla, for example. We're not talking about just one person... you're talking a good part of the country breathing on her neck. Talk about pressure.

That's why it's VERY important for any artist (and I consider novelists artists) to put everything in perspective and get some self-worth in place first.

I'm so glad I'm getting my first book published at my age now. If I had "made it" 10 years ago, I'm not sure if I would have handled it. I didn't have the maturity to put things in perspective back them.

[Nateskate]

This is such an awesome thread, and I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who resists the thought of fame! I've never understood that whole hero-worship of celebrities anyway. Sure, I admire plenty of actors, musicians, writers and more, but I have no desire to find out where they live or stalk them while they're buying groceries. In fact, I can guarantee that if I ever saw a celebrity out in public, I wouldn't approach them. Just because I'm sure they get sick of the lack of privacy.

Anyway, I don't want fame. I want to stay happily hidden behind my monitor, churning out words that can change the world. (okay, maybe not, hehe) But if I ever do reach the point where I'm required to do public speaking or appearances, I can tell you I will resist, resist, resist. I'll do it only if I have NO choice in the matter. (i.e. do it or die, professionally)

But I wanted to comment on why so many artists, authors and famous people seem so screwed up. Drugs, drinking, chaotic relationships, etc. I've often wondered if it's because creative people feel things so much more strongly than the "average" person. We're more sensitive than the average Joe. Average Joe just blindly goes to work and comes home, and does what he needs to do. He lives without wondering why he's living. We (creative types) agonize over things, overreact to things, look beneath the surface, behind the shadows. Everything is a drama, or comedy, or worse. We can't just "live", we need to analyze, explore, create. Or maybe it's just me. :idea: I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always wondered about this.


Wendy

Hi Wendy. Fame is a bizzare thing. I don't think we covet things because they are good for us. I want to diet, but that doesn't mean I never want to dive head first into a bowl of whipped cream and chocolate. Disgusting, but I love chocolate cream pie!

I agree that some people are more sensitive, introspective than others. Lets face it, if you write a book, you had to do a lot of thinking somewhere along the line.

[maestrowork]

Here's the perspective from two people who have "made it":

The Day I was Handed the Oscar... (https://www.nowcasting.com/actorsink/article.php?articleID=493&lastUpdate=20050225142955)

[Mistook]

[QUOTE=Nateskate]I want to diet, but that doesn't mean I never want to dive head first into a bowl of whipped cream and chocolate. Disgusting, but I love chocolate cream pie! [QUOTE]

Not disgusting at all. You only live once and PCP is here for a reason... oops! I mean CCP. :)

[Mistook]

Speaking of dreams and so-forth. I want to say that for years I've been haunted by one song that I think is deceptively deep, and which really sums up my whole philosophy -


Row your boat gently down the stream, merrily.

Life is but a dream.

[Jamesaritchie]

Fame and fortune could be useful. Well, first, money can be useful -- we all know that. With money you can do many things to help others, to support others, etc. etc. Only the most selfish people would abuse that.

As for fame, I think it has more to do with who you know and who know you and what you do with it than the groupies and tables you get in restaurants... you can do many great things when you're famous. The things you say can have a profound effect on someone who looks up to you. Your name alone could gather a lot of people for a cause (just look at the way the celebrities helped raise millions for 9/11 and the Tsunami relief, or how influential Clinton can be in anything he does or says as a civilian...) With fame comes the people who are attached to it, and that can be power.

And I think we all have some skewed ideas of what being famous and wealthy are like (since most of us are not famous or wealthy) -- the glare, the paparazzi, the phone calls, the stalkers, the tabloids, etc. etc. In reality, it's really not like that. The premieres, parties, book signings, award shows, etc. etc. they're just part of the business. I mean, when you're on business, you have to do social things anyway. I'm not famous, but I've done quite a few rounds of fundraisers and parties and photo shoots... they can actually be fun, if you don't get sucked into the whole illusion.

In a way, fame is a state of mind. You either subscribe to it and get swollowed by it, or you look at it as just another spice in your life, that it doesn't change who you are...

I mean about 10 years ago I saw Tom Cruise at a movie theater in Westwood, CA. He was just like any regular guy. Sure, people recognized him, but no one seemed to really care. Definitely no one bothered him. He was just standing in line, buying his ticket, not pulling his rank at all. Of course, it was LA and people were used to celebrities. I have met and worked with a few famous people -- to me, they're just normal people. And sometimes they're good connections to have...

Of course, like what everything else, fame and fortune could be abused and used for the wrong things, and they could corrupt even the most innocent minds.

Paris Hilton abuses her fame and fortune.

Warren Buffett or Stephen King doesn't.

My problem with fame is much less complex. Sure, fame can be useful, but it can also be an albatross, even if you never abuse it.

Fame does mean having people you've never heard of digging out your phone number and calling you, or finding your address and knocking on your door. Fame does mean being treated different, and it means when your name does get you a quick table in a great restaurant, you eat with people staring at you, and usually approaching you for an autograph.

Not a bad way to live, if you enjoy such doings. But I like being invisible in public. I like being left alone at home. I like not having friends and family know what I've done and what I haven't.

I'm a writer purely and simply because I like to sit alone in a room and write. It's wonderful that I can make money from writing, and I love, love, love being my own boss and setting my own hours. But there are many ways of earning money, many ways of being your own boss.

Fortunately, very few writers ever need worry about the kind of fame movie stars receive. Even the most famous writer is unlikely to draw crowds of screaming fans. Thank God, says I.

When the phone rings or there's a knock at the door, I want to see a friend there when I answer.

I've had enough weird phone calls, unexpected guests, and packages arriving with odd contents to last a lifetime.

[Mistook]

I've had enough weird phone calls, unexpected guests, and packages arriving with odd contents to last a lifetime.

Sorry, I just love that as a quote. :)

[Mistook]

Quick quiz:

When I encounter a famous person, I:


A) Stalk them.

B) Freak out, demand autograph, snap photo.

C) Wave, call their name, walk away.

D) Treat them like any other human in the building.

E) Deliberately ignore them.

F) Say hello because I know them.

G) Have to give them MY autograph!

H) Avoid them because they're stalking me.

[Writing Again]

Doesn't take fame. First time I sold a novel people I knew found out -- Ok, I was stupid and proud of the fact -- Big deal, you know, I guess what I wanted was a pat on the back and a "Job well done." What I got ranged from "Why do you want to write that kind of crap?" to "Hey, I really need a new car -- Will you buy me one now that you are rich?" and questions that ranged from, "When are you going to move out of this rat hole and go to Hollywood?" to "Will you introduce me to some movie stars?"

Edited to note: I was paid a $1,500 advance.

It doesn't even take a novel -- I was on a date once when a friend came up to congratulate me, "Hey, I saw that story you wrote in last month's science fiction magazine."

My date did not know I wrote and I tried to be very modest in discussing the story. She went bazooka on me. Tore into me about how people who write that kind of garbage are destroying the youth of America by filling their heads with nonsense instead of good quality literature.

Told me I should be ashamed of myself and stomped out of the restaurant.

[Writing Again]

Is a bill collector saying I owe them twice whatever I earned because I took so long getting there.

[Mistook]

Told me I should be ashamed of myself and stomped out of the restaurant.


There's a little fit of Jealous pique if ever I knew the scenario.


By close friends and family I have been accused of everyting from "being too creative" to "poisoning children's minds!"

God forbid anybody have a brain and use it to accomplish something. :Ssh:

[Nateskate]

[QUOTE=Nateskate]I want to diet, but that doesn't mean I never want to dive head first into a bowl of whipped cream and chocolate. Disgusting, but I love chocolate cream pie! [QUOTE]

Not disgusting at all. You only live once and PCP is here for a reason... oops! I mean CCP. :)

No- angel dust-bad. Many of my friends in high school did PCP. One of them sat in a toilet stall for eight hours thinking he was the door.

[Nateskate]

Doesn't take fame. First time I sold a novel people I knew found out -- Ok, I was stupid and proud of the fact -- Big deal, you know, I guess what I wanted was a pat on the back and a "Job well done." What I got ranged from "Why do you want to write that kind of crap?" to "Hey, I really need a new car -- Will you buy me one now that you are rich?" and questions that ranged from, "When are you going to move out of this rat hole and go to Hollywood?" to "Will you introduce me to some movie stars?"

Edited to note: I was paid a $1,500 advance.

It doesn't even take a novel -- I was on a date once when a friend came up to congratulate me, "Hey, I saw that story you wrote in last month's science fiction magazine."

My date did not know I wrote and I tried to be very modest in discussing the story. She went bazooka on me. Tore into me about how people who write that kind of garbage are destroying the youth of America by filling their heads with nonsense instead of good quality literature.

Told me I should be ashamed of myself and stomped out of the restaurant.

When I read the garbage Tolkien had to deal with, it was eye opening. He had to move, and make sure is address and phone number were not listed anywhere. Eventually all of his mail had to go through his publisher. Even his children had to deal with that, with Dungeon's and Dragon's fans coming from America on a pilgrimage to find a Tolkien.

[maestrowork]

Fame does mean having people you've never heard of digging out your phone number and calling you, or finding your address and knocking on your door. Fame does mean being treated different, and it means when your name does get you a quick table in a great restaurant, you eat with people staring at you, and usually approaching you for an autograph.


But people do that (except the autograph part) even if you're NOT famous. You said so yourself -- that you have enough uninvited guests or weird phone calls already, and you're not famous. I have my own share of strange phone calls and knock on the doors... and I can get a quick table if I know the people at the restaurants... :-) I do that not because I'm pulling my weight, but because the people at the restaurant like me... As for people staring at you -- well, they can't help it because you are so beautiful. ;) People stare at people all the time, famous or not.

As for people telling me "your work sucks" or "can I borrow $2000" or "Do you think you can get me a job there..." It doesn't matter if you're famous or not, it happens. People I know or don't know very well do that to me, and I'm not famous. It's just that when you're famous you get more of those -- that's why you have assistance and managers and all that, if you're really paranoid about it.

I know an older actress in Hollywood. She's probably one of the hardest working actresses and if you see her face you would know who she is because she's been on a lot of TV shows. She was a nurse before she decided to become an actress at 50, and she became very successful within a few years. We talk sometimes and I was at a party at her house last summer. Success and fame (she was even invited to present an award for the Emmys with James Cromwell) and fortune don't faze her. And you know what, she went from being poor to having two nice houses in LA, and things to make her comfortable, and an inheritance to give to her children. Strangers may greet her and say "hi" but no one bothers her. Sure, occasionally she has posers approaching her with things like "I really admire you...blah blah blah... I wonder if you can help me with yada yada yada." She's old and wise enough to realize they're just nuisance. Everyone has nuisances in their lives, famous or not. Before she has money and fame, it was the bill collectors and insurance companies and people who wouldn't give her the time of day.

I know another actress who used to be on ER -- fame and fortune didn't faze her either. It's part of the job and she lives her life as privately as she wants except when she's on the air or at premieres -- again, it's just part of the job. In real life she has a quiet life in a suburb of LA with her family. And she drives a Honda. She saves her money for investment and having her own production company. She's very grounded. I'd have dinner with her when I'm in LA and no one stare or bother us. And she's a 1000 times more famous than I am.

Anyway, the more I hear you guys talk, the more I'm convinced it's really not "fame" itself that is the issue, but your own personality and comfort level. Many people say "I'm a writer -- I just want to write and be in the background." If you're an introvert and you'd rather nobody on Earth knows about you, and you'd rather not do book signings or interviews, that's perfectly okay. But don't blame fame itself.

[Nateskate]

It's obvious that some people here know/have known/ or are famous by most of our standards, or at least somewhat famous.

The bottom line is that people who crave the limelight the most are generally people who feel something is lacking in life, who aren't satisfied where they are at. They imagine that the "image" seen on t.v or the movies or the field, is reality. Generally, lack of fame isn't the reason they are disatisfied with their life. They just think fame will be a short cut to finding what they are looking for. Like "Winning the Lotto" they assume its going to meet some need and change their lives for the better.

Fame is fleeting. It's the surreal life. You have this immage, but the immage has no substance. I've been fortunate to know some great people, in that they were famous, but never pompous. I've known a number of pro athletes, some still in the pros, in a variety of sports. Some were at the top in their field. None of them are megalomaniacs who crave attention. For the most part, they try to disappear into the background.

I've always said, "People make poor gods". What I mean by that is that nothing is as confusing to a person as being put on a pedestal of some kind. Even if people imagine you are something, deep down, you know your own failings, and insecurities, and that you are only a human. And someone telling you that you are some kind of "great this or that" doesn't make you great.

If you look at all of us, we all have gifts and abilities of one kind. Only humanity tends to idolize some more than others. I'm 6'7. But I did nothing to deserve being 6'7. I didn't earn it. And to tell you the truth, if not for sports (which I played once upon a time) being 6'7 is inconvenient. Actually with shoes, I'm a little over 6'8, which means I have to duck doorways, and duck for showers. I hate footboards on beds, because my legs stick off even a kingsize bed, and footboards jam my toes. I can't buy a single car (OR TRUCK) and fit in it. I bought an SUV and had to pay to have the seat moved back four inches.

But the point is that our physical stature, our intelligence, our apptitudes are gifts given to us. We didn't make ourselves. We didn't perform some great feat to earn our talents. You may be beautiful, but unless you got an extreme makeover, it was just given to you. And likewise, no one deserves to be judged because they weren't as smart or beautiful or athletic.

That's a very humbling thought. Well, I'm six foot seven, but I can't spell my way out of a paper bag. I can't organize to save my life. My singing absolutely S**ks. No word of lie. When my kids were small, if I sang, they'd cry.

So, if I'm good at something, it doesn't mean I deserve some praise. Heck, some people are great bakers, or great gardeners. Most people aren't famous only because society doesn't recognize their greatness.

With that said, we may be good at something, but we all stink at other things, and have faults, insecurities, things we are embarressed about. So, fame in the sense of being idolized is the most unnatural state to put a person. That's why so many people end up self destructing because of fame.

The bottom line is as much as we like some applause if we perform, our greatest need and desire is to be absolutely loved for who we are inside. Someone who worships you doesn't love you. They have this "image", and that image isn't real. They have to see your flaws, your insecurities, and the fact that you aren't all that great to ever really love you for who you are.

[Denis Castellan]

I know an older actress in Hollywood.
I know another actress who used to be on ERHey Ray, you know how much I admire you, you are one of the best writers I've ever read a sample chapter from, I enjoyed every second of the shows you acted in... I mean, if I were to move to the USA, could you please find me a house, lend me a few thousand bucks and introduce me to S.Spielberg and Q.Tarantino ? :):):)

[Mistook]

No- angel dust-bad. Many of my friends in high school did PCP. One of them sat in a toilet stall for eight hours thinking he was the door.

I remember as a kid seeing an after school special about the dangers of PCP, but by the time I was a teenager, it had completely vanished from the drug scene. I'm still not even sure exactly what it is.

[maestrowork]

Note to self: put Denis on my ignore list.

:tongue

[Nateskate]

I remember as a kid seeing an after school special about the dangers of PCP, but by the time I was a teenager, it had completely vanished from the drug scene. I'm still not even sure exactly what it is.

Here's a link: http://www.brantleycenter.com/fad/pcp-angeldust.html

[Julian Black]

By close friends and family I have been accused of everyting from "being too creative" to "poisoning children's minds!"

I've always been told that I "think too much," or that I have "an overactive imagination."

Hearing the former has always driven me crazy. When I was 11 years old, an obnoxious acquaintance of my grandparents told me that, and I replied (with all the indignation that an 11-year-old girl can muster) that "It's better than not thinking at all. Maybe you ought to try it, sometime." Fortunately, everyone was too busy laughing to scold me. He always steered clear of me, after that...

[Jamesaritchie]

But people do that (except the autograph part) even if you're NOT famous. You said so yourself -- that you have enough uninvited guests or weird phone calls already, and you're not famous. I have my own share of strange phone calls and knock on the doors... and I can get a quick table if I know the people at the restaurants... :-) I do that not because I'm pulling my weight, but because the people at the restaurant like me... As for people staring at you -- well, they can't help it because you are so beautiful. ;) People stare at people all the time, famous or not.

As for people telling me "your work sucks" or "can I borrow $2000" or "Do you think you can get me a job there..." It doesn't matter if you're famous or not, it happens. People I know or don't know very well do that to me, and I'm not famous. It's just that when you're famous you get more of those -- that's why you have assistance and managers and all that, if you're really paranoid about it.

I know an older actress in Hollywood. She's probably one of the hardest working actresses and if you see her face you would know who she is because she's been on a lot of TV shows. She was a nurse before she decided to become an actress at 50, and she became very successful within a few years. We talk sometimes and I was at a party at her house last summer. Success and fame (she was even invited to present an award for the Emmys with James Cromwell) and fortune don't faze her. And you know what, she went from being poor to having two nice houses in LA, and things to make her comfortable, and an inheritance to give to her children. Strangers may greet her and say "hi" but no one bothers her. Sure, occasionally she has posers approaching her with things like "I really admire you...blah blah blah... I wonder if you can help me with yada yada yada." She's old and wise enough to realize they're just nuisance. Everyone has nuisances in their lives, famous or not. Before she has money and fame, it was the bill collectors and insurance companies and people who wouldn't give her the time of day.

I know another actress who used to be on ER -- fame and fortune didn't faze her either. It's part of the job and she lives her life as privately as she wants except when she's on the air or at premieres -- again, it's just part of the job. In real life she has a quiet life in a suburb of LA with her family. And she drives a Honda. She saves her money for investment and having her own production company. She's very grounded. I'd have dinner with her when I'm in LA and no one stare or bother us. And she's a 1000 times more famous than I am.

Anyway, the more I hear you guys talk, the more I'm convinced it's really not "fame" itself that is the issue, but your own personality and comfort level. Many people say "I'm a writer -- I just want to write and be in the background." If you're an introvert and you'd rather nobody on Earth knows about you, and you'd rather not do book signings or interviews, that's perfectly okay. But don't blame fame itself.

Actually, I got those weird phone calls, unexpected guests, and odd packages because I was starting to pick up some fame, at least with certain segments of the reading public. My books were selling just well enough that fans decided to call, to come visiting without advance notice, and to send me all sorts of things. I received gloves and panties and nude photos from some women. I received a pair of socks someone had worn while walking over a trail I mentioned in a novel. I don't belive they had ever been washed. I also received some lovely things, including a hand-carved statue of the protagonist from one of my novels, and a wall plaque depicting the cover of another novel. Both were beautiful.

I was also having reporters show up at my house, and I had to pose for photos, pretending I was writing, etc.

We won't go into all the letters and phone calls I received from prison. Apparently, my novels are big hits with the prison population.

And I was treated diffeerntly by friends and family, and by any acquaintance
who knew of me through my fiction before meeting me.

None of this would have happened without the fame element, modest as it might have been.

All this is one of the main reasons I haven't had a novel published under my own name since '98. There are times when I have to publish a short story or an article under my real name, and there's still a fight going on about whether or not my next mystery will be released under my name or a pseudonym, but I'm holding out for a pseudonym, and it now looks like the editor is going to see things my way.

I don't think it's the introvert in me that wants to avoid fame. It's the writer who wants to be able to see and interact with the world just like everyone else does. If people react to you as being unlike the way they are, if they know you're a writer, it's been my experience they will not behave the same when you're around, and they will not say the same things. You don't get the true picture, which means you can't write about the true picture.

Fame absolutely does change changes. All manner of things. I've known some very famous people, and public life for them is nothing at all the way it is for everyone else. Neither is their private life, for that matter.

There are a couple of pretty famous writers, best-selling writers, who live under a pseudonym. Only a couple of people know who they really are, what they really look like, where they really live. For me, that's the writer's life.

[Julian Black]

...I don't think it's the introvert in me that wants to avoid fame. It's the writer who wants to be able to see and interact with the world just like everyone else does. If people react to you as being unlike the way they are, if they know you're a writer, it's been my experience they will not behave the same when you're around, and they will not say the same things. You don't get the true picture, which means you can't write about the true picture.

Fame absolutely does change changes. All manner of things. I've known some very famous people, and public life for them is nothing at all the way it is for everyone else. Neither is their private life, for that matter.

Except for a brief crazy spell when I was a teenager and young adult, I've never wanted to be famous. The thought of not being able to walk down the street without being recognized and accosted by adoring strangers is horrifying to me.

JK Rowling can't go out and write in coffeehouses anymore. A lot of people might say, "Well, she's got all that money, now; certainly she has a lovely place to write at home." But as someone who likes writing in public places, I sympathize. What's having that much money and fame worth if you can't live a normal life, or if it means getting cut off from an experience you've always enjoyed? I think that's sad.

There are a couple of pretty famous writers, best-selling writers, who live under a pseudonym. Only a couple of people know who they really are, what they really look like, where they really live. For me, that's the writer's life.

I agree. I've always wanted my work to get all the attention, not me. I never want to have to give up writing in coffeehouses, or going about my regular business.

[Mistook]

I don't think it's the introvert in me that wants to avoid fame. It's the writer who wants to be able to see and interact with the world just like everyone else does. If people react to you as being unlike the way they are, if they know you're a writer, it's been my experience they will not behave the same when you're around, and they will not say the same things. You don't get the true picture, which means you can't write about the true picture.


This reminds me of an odd experiment I once conducted. I used to be an avid journal-taker, and one year I decided that instead of writing in a notebook, I'd take a tape-recorded journal.

After recounting daily events on tape for a few weeks, I got the bright idea to just take the recorder with me and record life as it happened - editing it down to the highlights every weekend. The project was fairly sophisticated. I sewed a microphone onto my favorite "hoddy" and made an inside pocked for the recorder. I carried around two 90 minute tapes, and a spare pair of rechargeable batteries, so if the night went long, I could keep recording.

I never told a soul when I started out, and for the first few months the results were great. All my friends and family were being themselves, and I was capturing life as it truly was.

Gradually I let out the secret to a few friends and within three weeks, everybody was suddenly trying to be very funny and dramatic whenever I came around. They were all hamming it up for the journal. It got so bad I finally started carrying the recorder out in the open, and then I discontinued the project.

[Jamesaritchie]

This reminds me of an odd experiment I once conducted. I used to be an avid journal-taker, and one year I decided that instead of writing in a notebook, I'd take a tape-recorded journal.

After recounting daily events on tape for a few weeks, I got the bright idea to just take the recorder with me and record life as it happened - editing it down to the highlights every weekend. The project was fairly sophisticated. I sewed a microphone onto my favorite "hoddy" and made an inside pocked for the recorder. I carried around two 90 minute tapes, and a spare pair of rechargeable batteries, so if the night went long, I could keep recording.

I never told a soul when I started out, and for the first few months the results were great. All my friends and family were being themselves, and I was capturing life as it truly was.

Gradually I let out the secret to a few friends and within three weeks, everybody was suddenly trying to be very funny and dramatic whenever I came around. They were all hamming it up for the journal. It got so bad I finally started carrying the recorder out in the open, and then I discontinued the project.

That's a great example of exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. There is a real difference.

[Nateskate]

I've always been told that I "think too much," or that I have "an overactive imagination."

Hearing the former has always driven me crazy. When I was 11 years old, an obnoxious acquaintance of my grandparents told me that, and I replied (with all the indignation that an 11-year-old girl can muster) that "It's better than not thinking at all. Maybe you ought to try it, sometime." Fortunately, everyone was too busy laughing to scold me. He always steered clear of me, after that...

Been there done that. Some people are just drawn to other deep people, and they don't feel comfortable in the shallow end of life. Generally authors are deeper than the average, because it takes a certain love of depth to understand and convey anything worth conveying.

But I did realize that I also had a tendency to not enjoy life as much, because I was always thinking about serious issues: What if this and that can lead to some pretty depressing topics. On one hand I had to recognize that I not only had a deep bent, but a somewhat negative bent. And now I try to meet people where they are. If they want to talk about the best pizza, I'm not going to change the topic to war and peace. I'll talk about pizza.

[Nateskate]

Actually, I got those weird phone calls, unexpected guests, and odd packages because I was starting to pick up some fame, at least with certain segments of the reading public. My books were selling just well enough that fans decided to call, to come visiting without advance notice, and to send me all sorts of things. I received gloves and panties and nude photos from some women. I received a pair of socks someone had worn while walking over a trail I mentioned in a novel. I don't belive they had ever been washed. I also received some lovely things, including a hand-carved statue of the protagonist from one of my novels, and a wall plaque depicting the cover of another novel. Both were beautiful.

I was also having reporters show up at my house, and I had to pose for photos, pretending I was writing, etc.

We won't go into all the letters and phone calls I received from prison. Apparently, my novels are big hits with the prison population.

And I was treated diffeerntly by friends and family, and by any acquaintance
who knew of me through my fiction before meeting me.

None of this would have happened without the fame element, modest as it might have been.

All this is one of the main reasons I haven't had a novel published under my own name since '98. There are times when I have to publish a short story or an article under my real name, and there's still a fight going on about whether or not my next mystery will be released under my name or a pseudonym, but I'm holding out for a pseudonym, and it now looks like the editor is going to see things my way.

I don't think it's the introvert in me that wants to avoid fame. It's the writer who wants to be able to see and interact with the world just like everyone else does. If people react to you as being unlike the way they are, if they know you're a writer, it's been my experience they will not behave the same when you're around, and they will not say the same things. You don't get the true picture, which means you can't write about the true picture.

Fame absolutely does change changes. All manner of things. I've known some very famous people, and public life for them is nothing at all the way it is for everyone else. Neither is their private life, for that matter.

There are a couple of pretty famous writers, best-selling writers, who live under a pseudonym. Only a couple of people know who they really are, what they really look like, where they really live. For me, that's the writer's life.

I had one friend who was a runner-up for the Heisman, and had a long pro career. It was like everyone in the area where he came from became his best friend overnight. This guy was extremely shy, and had to go into hiding.

I have another close friend who owns a multi-billion dollar company. He's extremely generous, and constantly helps people without them knowing it. In fact, he helps people in pretty much every continent through his giving. But the impact is the same. People feel he can solve all of their life's troubles, and so he has people who constantly put him in awkward situations. Friends just drop hints they need money or bring up that something broke down.

I remember looking up the meaning of the words Sychophant (Spelling?) because I heard someone calling the hanger on-ers that hanging around Norman Lear that. But it must be terrible to wonder if the people around you have the purist motives. Even if they do, having to wonder is a real sad thing.

[Nateskate]

Except for a brief crazy spell when I was a teenager and young adult, I've never wanted to be famous. The thought of not being able to walk down the street without being recognized and accosted by adoring strangers is horrifying to me.

JK Rowling can't go out and write in coffeehouses anymore. A lot of people might say, "Well, she's got all that money, now; certainly she has a lovely place to write at home." But as someone who likes writing in public places, I sympathize. What's having that much money and fame worth if you can't live a normal life, or if it means getting cut off from an experience you've always enjoyed? I think that's sad.

I agree. I've always wanted my work to get all the attention, not me. I never want to have to give up writing in coffeehouses, or going about my regular business.

Rwolings problem isn't that she's a famous writer, she's also somewhat attractive. If she were more Plain Jane, she'd probably get away with more public writing. If people are staring at her anyway, eventually they'll recognize her. Pays to be plain, I guess.

[maestrowork]

I wouldn't recognize Rowling if she sits right next to me at a Starbucks.

Stephen King. Now, he's different. He's just plain odd and unique looking.

[Coco82]

I definitely think fame is a double-edged sword. I don't really care for world-wide recognition that much, but I would like my name to hold some creedence. I'd like to be able to make enough off of writing so as I can live comfortably. I don't mean an mansion, just a nice house. About writers being brooding, I think that's defintiely true. I know I am. I think anyone who is able to express their thoughts have to be deep thinkers.

[aka eraser]

I'm just about at the level of fame that I like right now. Nobody recognizes me or wants to interview/pester me but I get 10-25 letters or emails a week.

However I have lots of space available before I hit my monetary ceiling.

[Nateskate]

I definitely think fame is a double-edged sword. I don't really care for world-wide recognition that much, but I would like my name to hold some creedence. I'd like to be able to make enough off of writing so as I can live comfortably. I don't mean an mansion, just a nice house. About writers being brooding, I think that's defintiely true. I know I am. I think anyone who is able to express their thoughts have to be deep thinkers.

I think for writers, fame is different than it is for someone who is mostly in the public eye. In order to keep in the public eye, you are forced to spend more time in the Shadows. That's the honest truth. Writers are forced to revert to their own little cacoon, and they have to block out distraction. So, the writers world has a built in check and balance.

I think what is different between this and other types of fame, and I'll use three types, is that they force you away from your home and away from your family for extended periods. And they throw you into artificial circumstances that the human can't really adapt to.

Sports, music and mass media (especially actors). I had a chance to play semi-pro ball, and declined because I got married and realized life on the road would stain a marriage and cause temptation. I also had a chance at a music career, but when my wife wanted children and to be a stay at home mom, I knew that other bands were on the road for months at a time.

I can't act, so that was never an opporunity put at my feet. But I knew what fame required, at least to a degree. In sports (college) we went from city to city and hotel to hotel. You have temptations and different kinds of stress/bordom...etc. When I played in a rock band (original) we had to go from city to city. And there was a great deal more work than most people imagine. There's so much set-up/break down, storage, practice...etc.

It's not necessarily the noteriety itself that is the undoing for people, its the fact that fame demands more than most people should pay.

Acting is unnatural. You are around beautiful people, though some are inwardly anything but, and you are forced to be on locations away from your loved ones for prolonged time. And there are two roads. 1) Try to stay grounded, which means forming real relationships. 2) Ungrounded kid who never grows up, and plays all day and all night.

The pitfalls for number one is that you have distance between you and real flesh that you don't want. And you wouldn't be so shallow to believe the Stephen Stills "Love the one you're with". But that's not the point. On the road, loneliness and boredom is palpable, especially for sensitive people. Even on the team there are two roads that mirror the actors options: Grounded, or playboy. If you choose playboy, which I never did, you end up with all kinds of gambling depts, spurned lovers, and places you don't want to revisit because of burned bridges. There were teammates that had such high gambling debts, the bookies owned them. And you wondered if they threw games to pay off the depts. Others had multiple lovers in every city. And they had to deal with the headgames of actually hiding from one who didn't know about another.

If you choose to stay grounded, honestly, and not go to every bar with the guys, or strip joints, you feel isolated. And there's a part of the human soul that craves intimacy. So, you are torn by temptation, and feeling empty. And there is a magnate inside that wants to fill that emptiness, even at the point of risking everything else. So you endure that pain, and survive, but you don't enjoy it. Or you give in, and have a world of hurt and resentment, because now you have a real person back home waiting who loves you.

I've never been "famous", but I've been "almost famous" if that makes sense, at least enough to know that the reality of fame isn't what it seems outwardly.

And lastly, I am convinced that children will not tollerate being second to a career. If kids know you are sacrificing for them, even if that means taking on several careers, that force you to spend little time with them, they'll applaud you as a hero. "My mom gave her life to put food on the table" But if they think you want fame or money, and that's why they never see you for weeks, they'll become bitter and resentful. "My dad never had time for me. He loved his career, and my mom was lonely and treated like dirt. My dad never came to a single game. Even when he was home, he was always doing something related to the business, or he was worn out. He just wanted to be famous, and we were just baggage."

And guess what, that starts a cycle. How many famous children of "famous people" became famous, because they felt invisible like they didn't matter? Alot! And then they got into the cycle of drama themselves. They fear abandonment, and strive to stay in the limelight, because that gave them a sense that they mattered. And they fear having children, because they have the idea in the back of their heads, "What if I'm just like my mother/father... and can't be a good parent to my kids..." So they live a torn life.

[Mistook]

Nate, you bring to mind the phenomenon of the "Single Starlet Mom". It seems to happen a lot with movie actors and pop stars, where they never get married (or can't stay married) and suddenly, in their thirties, they have a baby. The media covers the pregnancy the way they would cover any other re-invention of the starlets image.

We see photo's of mommy's big tummy on magazine covers, and later on we see shots of mommy pushing a stroller with the newborn - her latest boyfriend at her side. Then suddenly, the baby disappears and mom's back on tour, or back on the silver screen.

The next time you hear about that baby, she's sixteen and getting arrested for narcotics possession.

I always think when this happens that the startlet wanted a baby the way she wanted a mansion, or a Jaguar. The baby is just another status symbol to be shown-off on special occasions, but otherwise left for servants to maintain.

I even wonder sometimes if they pre-select the father purely on the basis of "seed stock" knowing or hoping he will fall into the background and leave her with custody.

[Nateskate]

Nate, you bring to mind the phenomenon of the "Single Starlet Mom". It seems to happen a lot with movie actors and pop stars, where they never get married (or can't stay married) and suddenly, in their thirties, they have a baby. The media covers the pregnancy the way they would cover any other re-invention of the starlets image.

We see photo's of mommy's big tummy on magazine covers, and later on we see shots of mommy pushing a stroller with the newborn - her latest boyfriend at her side. Then suddenly, the baby disappears and mom's back on tour, or back on the silver screen.

The next time you hear about that baby, she's sixteen and getting arrested for narcotics possession.

I always think when this happens that the startlet wanted a baby the way she wanted a mansion, or a Jaguar. The baby is just another status symbol to be shown-off on special occasions, but otherwise left for servants to maintain.

I even wonder sometimes if they pre-select the father purely on the basis of "seed stock" knowing or hoping he will fall into the background and leave her with custody.

That may be a trend. In the worst case scenario, you'd have someone who is simply acting on selfish reasons, in that they are starving for attention, and do it as an attention getting device, with no thoughts for the kids. I suspect that isn't the key motivation most of the time. Rather its the more immature, "I don't want to make sacrifices...no one should expect me too...I'll have kids...and I'll have nannies, and drag them across the world so that I can keep my career hot, and give them all they want."

Assuming the best, these are not monsters, but people torn by mixed motives. There is that devil on one shoulder, angel on the other. And ultimately there is a feeling that "I should be able to have my cake and eat it too." There error is lack of wisdom, and anticipation of the tole on them and the children. And at its worst, it leads to them resenting their kids, but more likely, their kids resenting their often abscent parents.

I don't want to name names, but you can fill in the blanks, especially when the child of a famous actor becomes famous. That's when the dirt is aired in public. "Dad was never around..." or, "...because of his job, the marriage fell apart and he had three families, and never had anything to do with us..."

If you look at their core motivations, these people want all of the same things we want: to love, be loved, have a lasting relationship. But often you have other forces at work. Lets use the term "emotionally wounded" to describe someone who was hurt by neglect, abandonment, lack of nurture or any kind of abuse and maltreatment that was prolonged in childhood. Emotionally wounded people aren't "whole". They tend to act in compulsive ways, because they are generally trying to feel good about life and themselves. Someone who constantly needs approval is generally feeling empty. Someone who has a chip on their shoulder often feels like something was stollen from them. (Their inheritance)

The magical thinking is that if I am rich and famous, I will feel good about myself, and people will like me, and I will be loved. Well, it doesn't happen that way. If you have someone who loathes themselves and believes they are dirt, no amount of praise is enough. They are walking around with a bucket and you can't pour enough love, affection, affirmation in that bucket. It just goes through, so tomarrow they need another fix.

Alot of famous people are like that. They are driven by a need to feel approval and affection, and although fame is artificial, it is a temporary fix. But that woundedness doesn't take away their natural desire to have a family and love children and a spouse. However, as a wounded person who is never satisfied, they tend to get into a performance cycle. "Every day I have to be perfect, or someone will see that defective child that I see in the mirror, or think about on my bed at night."

Nothing is as indelible as wounds of childhood. So parents absolutely have this great propensity for screwing children's lives up. But screwed up people want relationships, have children and repeat the cycle.

So, fame is never ever a cure. It's only a fix for those people. There are cures, but the cures are always aimed towards healing the wound, not providing a fix. And if they heal the wound, life becomes sane.

Alot of these people in that industry are not sane, or they'd take a break and walk away from the madness when it demands more than a sane person should give. And you see that. You see a great actress or actor who goes into semi-retirement while raising kids, and then comes back when they are grown.-or at least take the least demanding schedules so that they can give to their kids. Others are so driven by inner needs for affirmation, that they can never take that break. And so, they are using every thing imaginable to get back on top. This will expect their children to "just understand" and because famous kids have perks, hamptoms vactions, great toys, they might mask their resentment until late in their teens. They like the upside, but still want what every kid wants, their parents undivided attention.

Well, that's takes an insane amount of commitment. And so, you have these compromises, where you have this famous model, who as a child had a mother who was on the road in the entertainment field, and who probably felt "I'm doing this for my child," but who might have been feeding this ego need, or she might have quit and taken a saner job that allowed her to spend time with her kid. So, that child grows up with this hole in the soul-caled abandonment-that says, "you are 'worthless" not as important as my job/ my career/my fans."

And now this famous model grows up with this hole, and is actually driven by the same thing her mother was, wanting to be loved, to love, yet compelled by inner desires because she's starving for approval. Her fix is her career, and magazine covers. So for a moment she feels better, but after awhile, like any drug, you don't get as high, and you begin to feel empty all over again. So, if the fame doesn't do it. Add drugs/sex/and any stimulant addiction you can think of to the mix.

And if she has kids, she will find she is torn by the very same desires. Her career and her children. And in fact, may become just like mom. So, this isn't really about "blaming mom and dad", because you can follow a victom chain for generations. Rather its more about "The buck stops here....and I'm not going to allow my wounds to pass down another generation, so I'll deal with them."

Hollywood is obviously the most unnatural job in the world.

[Nateskate]

I'm just about at the level of fame that I like right now. Nobody recognizes me or wants to interview/pester me but I get 10-25 letters or emails a week.

However I have lots of space available before I hit my monetary ceiling.

That's actually a pretty healthy wish list. As I'm listening, most of the writers aren't particularly interested in being extremely wealthy. Most seem to want that beautiful retreat and enough money to not have to have that second job. Well, perhaps a few would love money to burn.

[Wandering Sensei]

This is very true, I think.

On the other hand, it is a fact that getting published, which many aspiring writers see as the end of the struggle, is really just the beginning of a different struggle. Every stage has its own challenges.

- Victoria

How very true, Victoria. I see something similar among martial artists. They see the black belt as the goal, the end of all their hard work. But all that means--and senseis try to emphasize this with varying results--is that you've mastered the basics of the art, and now the real work begins. The practice of martial arts is a way of life. The belts are just mile markers along the road.

I'm living a life that a lot of people here want more than anything. I work as a full-time writer and editor, and I'm getting a good middle-class living from it. But what I'm doing is editing and writing web content for a telecommunications website. No byline, no recognition, not even copyright. I like it, but it's not quite what I had in mind when I told the Universe that I wanted to be a full-time writer and not starve. Now I'm engaged in different struggles, like how to write a novel that's worthy of publication.

[Wandering Sensei]

I'd like to make enough money (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=16,45429513,absolutewrite.com,0 ) from writing that I can quit the day job. More money would be welcome because then I could buy a nice secluded house in Cornwall or Scotland and write, write, write.

I am not really interested in fame. I think it must be quite horrific not to be able to walk down a street without being recognised. It would be nice though to be appreciated for my work, especially from authors that I look up to.


(And don't think for one minute that I've given up on the perfect world where I'm Mrs. Depp ;) )

Nice. Orlando and I could have you over for dinner. We could talk writing and our guys could talk shop. :cool:

I don't want fame so much as recognition. Fame may or may not have anything to do with talent and hard work. I want to be recognized as a skilled and entertaining writer. And I don't need fortune. I just want enough for all the standard security stuff: a decent house, a retirement fund, money in the bank, occasional vacations to someplace nice.

[Nateskate]

Nice. Orlando and I could have you over for dinner. We could talk writing and our guys could talk shop. :cool:

I don't want fame so much as recognition. Fame may or may not have anything to do with talent and hard work. I want to be recognized as a skilled and entertaining writer. And I don't need fortune. I just want enough for all the standard security stuff: a decent house, a retirement fund, money in the bank, occasional vacations to someplace nice.

Is recongnition "Fame lite?"

In my mind, fame is ultimately a type of affirmation and approval. But I think more people have an identifiable peer group they seek affirmation from. I guess selling lots of books is a type of affirmation. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting affirmation or approval. In fact, I'd wonder how many people simply don't give a flying fig whether anyone likes their work, just so long as they make money???

[oswann]

In fact, I'd wonder how many people simply don't give a flying fig whether anyone likes their work, just so long as they make money???[/QUOTE]

One at least. :hooray:


Os.

[maestrowork]

If people don't like your work, they won't buy it. If they don't buy it, the publisher won't make any money. If the publisher won't make any money, you won't get any royalty, and they will drop you like a rotten potato.

[Mistook]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting affirmation or approval.

Nate, at times, it sounds like you really are saying there is something wrong with wanting... anything. If you don't mind my saying, your general philosophy sounds positively buddhist to me - in that all desires are corrupt, or will lead to suffering, where wisdom is not present.

It often seems as if you are saying that the wise and healthy person is one who neither needs, nor wants anything for himself, and lives only to enlighten others to acheive this same state of contentment. It sounds good on paper, but I don't think it's wise (or even possible) to go that route in the real world.

I think you can only rationalize the living of a life down to a certain threshold, after which everything else is messy, unpredictable, potentially painful, and inherently irrational. There is no perfect procedure for living a life. If there was, we'd all be incredibly bored by now, I should think.

The reason I'm taking you to task is because it kind of stuck in my craw that you said you had a friend who was writing a book about their life of poverty, and you advised them not to bother with it until they, essentially, got their sh*t together. Then you went on to play down the effort as nothing but a personal catharsis which surely could hold no interest for a real reading audience.

I just kind of wonder, why don't you leave that for editors and agents to decide? Maybe you're right, and this book is awful, but is it really your place to encourage this person to abandon the project because of their lack of healing or wisdom or whatever flaw it is you see in the way they are living?

It just doesn't smack of true wisdom to me.

[Nateskate]

Nate, at times, it sounds like you really are saying there is something wrong with wanting... anything. If you don't mind my saying, your general philosophy sounds positively buddhist to me - in that all desires are corrupt, or will lead to suffering, where wisdom is not present.

It often seems as if you are saying that the wise and healthy person is one who neither needs, nor wants anything for himself, and lives only to enlighten others to acheive this same state of contentment. It sounds good on paper, but I don't think it's wise (or even possible) to go that route in the real world.

I think you can only rationalize the living of a life down to a certain threshold, after which everything else is messy, unpredictable, potentially painful, and inherently irrational. There is no perfect procedure for living a life. If there was, we'd all be incredibly bored by now, I should think.

The reason I'm taking you to task is because it kind of stuck in my craw that you said you had a friend who was writing a book about their life of poverty, and you advised them not to bother with it until they, essentially, got their sh*t together. Then you went on to play down the effort as nothing but a personal catharsis which surely could hold no interest for a real reading audience.

I just kind of wonder, why don't you leave that for editors and agents to decide? Maybe you're right, and this book is awful, but is it really your place to encourage this person to abandon the project because of their lack of healing or wisdom or whatever flaw it is you see in the way they are living?

It just doesn't smack of true wisdom to me.

I can see how you might have mistook what I meant to say, because I didn't place any of this in a context. And if you don't mind, I'll put that in context on a PM.

No, I'm not Buddhist, and that's never the point of this. Rather, let me spell out my personal philosophy on success (in general).

Let's say I ask someone, "What do you want out of life?" Generally they can't answer the question. They will take a stab at it: "I want to be a rock star".

Now, you may say, "What's wrong with being a rock star?" Nothing. I wanted to be a rock star. I hope my kids end up being rock stars. But that isn't really what they want. Rather "Rock Star" is not really the goal, in the sense of "Primary Objectives", its a "vehicle". My questions are generally to get people to ask themselves, "What am I REALLY looking for in life."

And so, I take it to the next step, "Why do you want to be a rock star?"
"Oh, now I see...I want to be rich, famous, have lots of babes..."

"No, you still don't see what I'm asking." I'll save you some steps. Generally speaking, you should want to be satisfied, happy, content.

I'm not saying that you must take this road or that road, but don't put the cart before the horse. Most people only look at the surface of issues. Wisdom is the anticipation of the outcome before taking an action. It anticipates, "This will lead to happiness", "This will lead to sorrow", and so a person invests wisely or foolishly.

So, "Being a Rock Star, Movie Star, Author" may make you happier than failure, but ultimately the things that lead to a happy life are deeper. Why? Externals are never the cause for depression/anxiety and an unhappy life. They may contribute, but generally, the problem is internal. That is learning to be happy where you are at, and interpreting success differently than, "I have to sit on top of the mountain as king of the hill." Well, if you reach the top of the mountain, you'll always find someone trying to knock you off. Careers tank.

You'll find miserable Rock Stars, Movie Stars, and Authors. The assumption that success will make you happy, is absolutely mistaken. Now, I'm not saying these things will make a person miserable. But the point is to always ask this question first, "What will make me happy", and in a less self-centered way, "What will make my spouse and my children happy". I tend to put that question before what makes me happy.

I'm far from saying- do nothing. Always do the best you possibly can. I'd absolutely want to be the best writer in my Genre. Who knows, I may not even get published. (My hope is that I will) I'm still in the preparation stages and haven't even shopped for an agent yet. That should come soon. But I'm all for success. I'm all for using your gift for the greatest good possible. If you are a musician, to be a world class musician/producer.

Now, as far as whether that will make you happy is another thing. Some people are driven. They can have ten best sellers, and will go into a funk because they can't get number 11. Some will be one hit wonders, who end up more depressed because they could never repeat their success.

The question always goes back to "How do I see myself?" "What are the important things in life?"

Questions to make a person think:

1) Would you rather have a number one Music CD, if it cost your marriage, or obscurity if you had the most satisfying marriage in the world? (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't have both...but IF you had only one option, which would you take?

2) If you could be a billionare, but you had a 50% chance that all of your children and grandchildren would be heroin addicts, or have a 35,000 a year job, knowing that you'd have financial struggles till your children were through college, but guarantee that all your children would be happy and successful, which would you choose?

Lesson: Attitudes, values and priorities will ultimately make or break everyone of us. If our children are less important than our careers, don't be surprised if your children suffer. If your marriage is less important than fame, don't be surprised if you never have anything but a series of failed relationships.

Do you want to get to the top of the mountain, and see a trail of dissaster behind you. Again, I'm not saying you can't be successful and have great kids and a great marriage. What I am saying is, if you put your ducks in order of what is absolutely the most important thing. Then you will never make the mistake of gaining the world at the risk of loosing your soul. Rather, you will protect those things which are most important, and give them the highest priority, and you will keep ambition, and shooting for the moon, in a context that will ultimately lead to the greatest satisfaction.

I look at famous people, and I see that over half of them are sad, and unfullfiled. Many of them are addicted to something. Many of them can't sustain the most important relationships, and have a string of regrets. And perhaps conversations like this could have helped some of them, because perhaps they might have re-prioritized, and made different choices.


See PM regarding the person I told to "Wait". Because in context it will make much more sense to you.

[Nateskate]

I need to clarify something on this last post. When I started this thread it wasn't questioning anyone else. Rather at the time, I was questioning myself.

Many years ago, I read Eccelesiastes, which is a depressing sort of book. It was an insightful book, but baisically, the richest guy in the world, the most talented guy in the world, who had a thousand women to sleep with 300 wive and 700 concubines, and a playwrite, author, architect, who had basically done it all, looked up and said, "It's all vanity and chasing after wind."

The point of his saying was that everything isn't what you thought it would be. Once you get there, perhaps it wasn't even worth the effort, although it seemed like such a seductive carrot when you started. And so, I tend to look ahead. "Is this good for me, my family, my kids...will it lead to happiness, or will I get there and say...Is this all there is?"

Well, that isn't quite all Solomon said, because much was in perspective. It is good for a man to enjoy his labors under the sun. So, enjoying life is a good thing. And to some extent, I enjoy writing. But I hate editing. It's an ADHD thing.

At anyrate. When I begin writing an Epic Fantasy, I was ignorant in many ways. At first it was a hobby. But people told me to publish. And I thought, "Sure, I'll fix it up, and in about a year, I'll send it to a publisher, and instant publication."

Well, one year turned into 2 years (after I had already written the core of this thing) And after research, I realized I still had to make it better, and change the format. So, now I'm in thinking I had to swim across a swimming pool to get to my goal, and suddenly I wake up in the middle of the ocean.

Then I looked at all the options I had in life at this particular time. And there were all of these open doors, mostly good ones. But I chose the least likely of doors, to stay with this book and finish what I've started, knowing that this was not going to be an overnight success story.

You can't imagine how many times I've questioned myself. "Why am I even doing this?" At the core, I know my heart wasn't in a bad place when I started. But the cost of this project is enormous in terms of time investment.

In a sense, I exchanged the opportunity to do several really worthwhile things, echanging them for a project that I had no guarantee would even work. And it's not simply that I have an opporunity to write. I have the opporunity to write all the time. If you had asked me "What are your best chances of getting published," I'm convinced I could get published in one Genre very easily. But I chose to go into this "Epic Fantasy", and began to question my own motives. "Why am I doing this. What do I expect from this..." So, this really was very much a question for "me".

And at the time, I just figured, "Why not throw it out into the forum, because I'm sure others have asked the same questions. "Why climb this particular mountain?" What's on the other side. Is it really what we think it will be? I'm not sure yet.

Is it worth the cost? I don't know yet. This could be the biggest waste of time, and I'll look back and kick myself for putting so much time into it. Is this the best option that was open to me? Even if I end up with a best seller and make alot of money, I still don't know if that answer was "yes"? You'd have to know the nature of the other options, and you'll have to wait until I am on Oprah to discuss those. (or not)

[Vipersniper]

:hi: My origional dream was to be a doctor specializing in cardiac care. That ended when I got sick the first time in 1968 but I never gave up on a career in medicine. So after trial and error I went back to school and became a nurse. I had worked after finding out that I had cancer the first time and recovered enough to go to school. I did complete the required training and went inot geriatric nursing but an accident that disabled me and cancer put me on the retirement list. During my illness I wrote in a diary and I had dreams while sleeping so I wrote my first book about 911 because I had been plagued by dreams for three years before it happened. Of course 911 was far worse than what I dreamed about so I wrote the story from that dream. Since I can no longer work as a nurse I can write about my experiences among them cancer. When I am serious I am as serious as a heart attack but I have a keen sense of humor. My dream almost shattered when I did not get the royalties that I know that I was due from PublishAmerica but hey for me the best revenge is to find another publisher that will treat my work with respect and without the advice of Trellix Mailer that prophet of God. It is still there it has just taken a detour a few times.

[Nateskate]

:hi: My origional dream was to be a doctor specializing in cardiac care. That ended when I got sick the first time in 1968 but I never gave up on a career in medicine. So after trial and error I went back to school and became a nurse. I had worked after finding out that I had cancer the first time and recovered enough to go to school. I did complete the required training and went inot geriatric nursing but an accident that disabled me and cancer put me on the retirement list. During my illness I wrote in a diary and I had dreams while sleeping so I wrote my first book about 911 because I had been plagued by dreams for three years before it happened. Of course 911 was far worse than what I dreamed about so I wrote the story from that dream. Since I can no longer work as a nurse I can write about my experiences among them cancer. When I am serious I am as serious as a heart attack but I have a keen sense of humor. My dream almost shattered when I did not get the royalties that I know that I was due from PublishAmerica but hey for me the best revenge is to find another publisher that will treat my work with respect and without the advice of Trellix Mailer that prophet of God. It is still there it has just taken a detour a few times.

1) I'd be leery of using people's names on a public forum, could cause trouble. It might be wise to edit that out.

2) Compelling story. Obviously I'm sorry to hear about your illnesses. What a terrible thing to have to endure.

Illnesses and unexpected tragedies do throw a terrible wrench into life plans. But it's like Frodo's ring, sometimes you have something handed to you that you did not choose, and you have to make the best of it. It's a rather good thing to look for a positive side, that the chances missed are actually what provide sometimes more important opportunities.

[Vipersniper]

:snoopy: That is not his real name he gave five different names in the emails and other stuff. His group went online and lamblasted the book without ever reading it. So I sent that to an attorney that is checking on the things. These people have a tendency to just find another throw away email and use a different name under the mailing system. But you know in ways it is funny in that it is not funny because it does take time to trace them but it is not impossible to do. But I had dreams that some day that I would write a book so I sat down and did it. There is a great deal that I would add or change around and the whole process was learning process. I guess I got a really good education out of the whole deal. My friend/mentor/neighbor/minister now needs to talk to me because he has the same type cancer that I did. I did a sermon for the church on who ministers to the minister when they need ministering. So I am glad that I survived what I did in order to help him because there are things that he can ask me and we can sit down and see the roots of the other's hair naturally. He can't get that from his bishop or supervisor if you will. And truthfully he shouldn't because experience is the best teacher and there are things that he can ask and he knows that I will tell him. I sat down one day after a member of the support group had died and I asked why was I the one to survive the only one in fact. My chaplain friend said that. "You are the only one that can tell their story and tell it the way it is because you lived it. There is a lot of bull #%@# that happens. So writing to me is much more than a hobby. My cousin who was a professor of Education at the University of Tennesse called me when she was sick and not feeling up to par because she was disatisfied with what the doctors told her. I told her the good news and the bad news about her ailment but it was not cancer. Then she said something that alerted me to the fact she was having a heart attack. Sadly she died of a massive heart attack and so it will now become a challenge to finish the book Family Tree because she was the best of the best. I really want to honor her memory by trying to fine tune my skills. Maybe those termites in my sawdust got shook up somewhat. But another thing that I did before I gave up on first dream was to work as a special police officer and my husband retired from the state. This guy is a preditator and you are correct to be leery of them. Why else would he have five different names and a throw away email address?

[Nateskate]

:snoopy: That is not his real name he gave five different names in the emails and other stuff. His group went online and lamblasted the book without ever reading it. So I sent that to an attorney that is checking on the things. These people have a tendency to just find another throw away email and use a different name under the mailing system. But you know in ways it is funny in that it is not funny because it does take time to trace them but it is not impossible to do. But I had dreams that some day that I would write a book so I sat down and did it. There is a great deal that I would add or change around and the whole process was learning process. I guess I got a really good education out of the whole deal. My friend/mentor/neighbor/minister now needs to talk to me because he has the same type cancer that I did. I did a sermon for the church on who ministers to the minister when they need ministering. So I am glad that I survived what I did in order to help him because there are things that he can ask me and we can sit down and see the roots of the other's hair naturally. He can't get that from his bishop or supervisor if you will. And truthfully he shouldn't because experience is the best teacher and there are things that he can ask and he knows that I will tell him. I sat down one day after a member of the support group had died and I asked why was I the one to survive the only one in fact. My chaplain friend said that. "You are the only one that can tell their story and tell it the way it is because you lived it. There is a lot of bull #%@# that happens. So writing to me is much more than a hobby. My cousin who was a professor of Education at the University of Tennesse called me when she was sick and not feeling up to par because she was disatisfied with what the doctors told her. I told her the good news and the bad news about her ailment but it was not cancer. Then she said something that alerted me to the fact she was having a heart attack. Sadly she died of a massive heart attack and so it will now become a challenge to finish the book Family Tree because she was the best of the best. I really want to honor her memory by trying to fine tune my skills. Maybe those termites in my sawdust got shook up somewhat. But another thing that I did before I gave up on first dream was to work as a special police officer and my husband retired from the state. This guy is a preditator and you are correct to be leery of them. Why else would he have five different names and a throw away email address?

Well, you certainly have enough material for a few books. People who suffer tend to have a perspective that other people who do not suffer can't quite comprehend. It's not through indifference though. Rather, in ignorance they do certain things.

I'd say the world needs to be educated on seeing the world through the eyes of the suffering.