Noose found at Columbia University

[William Haskins]

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A noose was discovered this week on the office door of an African-American professor at Columbia University, school officials and the New York Police Department said. The noose was found in a building at Columbia's Teachers College, said Joe Levine, executive director for external affairs at Teachers College. The noose apparently was placed on the 44-year-old professor's office door sometime before 9 a.m. ET Tuesday, Levine said.

Security cameras cover the entrance to the building, but there are none in the hallway where the noose was discovered, he added. The building, which is open 24 hours a day, is accessible only to those with a Teachers College ID card or proof that they are affiliated with someone within the school, Levine said

The New York Police Department's Hate Crime Task Force is investigating.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/columbia.noose/index.html

[InfinityGoddess]

Sick. Just sick.

[robeiae]

Yeah, they actually have a Hate Crime Task Force?!

[InfinityGoddess]

Yeah, they actually have a Hate Crime Task Force?!

The noose is sick. Not the task force.

[Perks]

The noose is also tedious. It's absolutely infuriating how slowly we creep toward sense. Bigots (or people employing bigot-tactics for whatever reason) are the millstones of the world.

[billythrilly7th]

There will always be bigots.

There will always be murderers.

There will always be wars.

"That's Just The Way It Is."
Bruce Hornsby

[Perks]

Oh I agree. I still find them tedious.

[billythrilly7th]

Oh I agree. I still find them tedious.

I actually find them boring.

[William Haskins]

it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Perks]

I actually find them boring.What are you doing?

[jst5150]

Yeah, they actually have a Hate Crime Task Force?!

Dick Wolf is already writing the elevator pitch ...

[Cranky]

I agree with Perks. I am sick to death of this immature bullshit. When will people get a freakin' clue?!

I really can't say anything coherent about this type of thing. It pisses me off that we still have bigoted morons running around pulling stunts like this.

[Bird of Prey]

OMG.

Columbia University in the heart of ultra-liberal New York City. Pause. Now, why would anybody do that? Think about it please.

[Haggis]

OMG.

Columbia University in the heart of ultra-liberal New York City. Pause. Now, why would anybody do that? Think about it please.

Ahmadinejad's getting back at Lee Bollinger? :Shrug:

[Bird of Prey]

Ahmadinejad's getting back at Lee Bollinger? :Shrug:

LOL!! that must be it.



I don't know, Haggis. Something's not adding up.

[Haggis]

LOL!! that must be it.



I don't know, Haggis. Something's not adding up.

Yeah. Seems kind of strange, doesn't it?

[Bird of Prey]

Yeah. Seems kind of strange, doesn't it?

It sure does. i just can't stop laughing here.

Why is it that some people - like you - can write the simplest sentence and be so funny?

[poetinahat]

OMG.

Columbia University in the heart of ultra-liberal New York City. Pause. Now, why would anybody do that? Think about it please.
Yes, New York City -- five boroughs of, what, eight million people. Home of, for example, Howard Beach.

All New Yorkers think alike, and there are no race/class issues anywhere? Not among all those millions and all that disparity of wealth?

And at Columbia University... with students from all over the country and the world.

Question: Are bigots never liberals? I'd find that difficult to believe somehow.

Bigots are everywhere, whether they're the easy-to-identify stereotype or more institutionalised.

[tourdeforce]

Perhaps the noose was intended to represent the Circle of Life.

Why must we see the worst in everything?

[Haggis]

It sure does. i just can't stop laughing here.

Why is it that some people - like you - can write the simplest sentence and be so funny?

Uh...I never learned how to complete a paragraph. :(

But, ya know, this one doesn't smell right. Before I overreact and get all pissy about racists, I think we really should (as Haskins said) see how this plays out. Seems like you're thinking the same thing. Maybe it's time for a group hug. :)

[Bird of Prey]

Uh...I never learned how to complete a paragraph. :(

But, ya know, this one doesn't smell right. Before I overreact and get all pissy about racists, I think we really should (as Haskins said) see how this plays out. Seems like you're thinking the same thing. Maybe it's time for a group hug. :)

A group hug? Ah, yes. LOL!! Well, we'll see how it plays out.

[Perks]

LOL!! that must be it.



I don't know, Haggis. Something's not adding up.That's what I meant when I added my caveat to my original reaction. It seems reasonably likely that this isn't your average racial romp.

[Bird of Prey]

That's what I meant when I added my caveat to my original reaction. It seems reasonably likely that this isn't your average racial romp.

Exactly, Perks. I agree.

[Perks]

Question: Are bigots never liberals? I'd find that difficult to believe somehow.

It could happen, but with campus security, I'm guessing someone disliked more than his skin color to go to the trouble.

[poetinahat]

It could happen, but with campus security, I'm guessing someone disliked more than his skin color to go to the trouble.
I agree.

In theory, it might not have had anything to do with his skin colour -- it could be just coincidence -- though I'd probably start with that line of thinking. It's an obvious symbol.

OTOH, it could be an extraordinarily sick prank; college students have been known to show extremely poor taste and judgement in their hijinks. (That said, it might not have been a student at all, of course -- let alone anyone associated with Columbia.)

[Perks]

OTOH, it could be an extraordinarily sick prank; college students have been known to show extremely poor taste and judgement in their hijinks. (That said, it might not have been a student at all, of course -- let alone anyone associated with Columbia.)I've told you, that's why I want to be a classroom skeleton when I no longer need my bones (which could be in about ten minutes if you know me at all.) I want to be the vehicle for extraordinarily sick pranks. Can't you just see it?

[SpookyWriter]

I want to be the vehicle for extraordinarily sick pranks. Can't you just see it?Works for me. But why wait until you're dead?

[William Haskins]

the teacher's a she, by the way.

[Perks]

Works for me. But why wait until you're dead?
Bring it on, smartboy. If you think you've a sharp enough tool to debone me.

[poetinahat]

the teacher's a she, by the way.
Does this mean that the perp is a racist, but not a sexist?

Interesting to see how not knowing that might have coloured the discussion. Planned, William?

[Perks]

Does this mean that the perp is a racist, but not a sexist?
Nah, a noose is intimidating either way.

[poetinahat]

No doubt. But I'd guess that a threat based primarily on gender, rather than race, probably would have been expressed differently.

Unless, of course, the perp was a female also.

Gah. Take away my detective's badge.

[Jean Marie]

Maybe, it's part of a Halloween costume.

[Haggis]

Or perhaps there was no perp.

[Jean Marie]

No doubt. But I'd guess that a threat based primarily on gender, rather than race, probably would have been expressed differently.

Unless, of course, the perp was a female also.

Gah. Take away my detective's badge.
Yeah, it would of had a scarf attached.

[Jean Marie]

Or perhaps there was no perp.
Or, the dog did it.

[William Haskins]

Planned, William?

not really. i provided a link in the OP that identified her as "madonna".

[Jean Marie]

Urk. Never mind. Too many assumptions implicit in my whole post. I retract it.
You can't, it's there for posterity.

[poetinahat]

Fine, have it your way. Two can play at that:

Or, the dog did it.

I think I win.

[Haggis]

Sure. Blame the dog.

[astonwest]

Mellencamp needed another song to add to his next album...

[Jean Marie]

Fine, have it your way. Two can play at that:



I think I win.
I call a draw.

Sure. Blame the dog.
Mostly, it's the cat. Least that's what Kola says.

Hey, w/ your new avatar...eeek!

[poetinahat]

If I find a noose on my door -- gender and race notwithstanding -- I'm not laughing.

Until it's shown to be a hoax, it's not a laughing matter.

[Jean Marie]

Maybe, but if I find a noose on my door -- gender and race notwithstanding -- I'm not laughing.
I thought you guys left a tie...no...go on, laugh...I can hear you...

[poetinahat]

No I'm not. I assure you of that. It's not funny.

[Jean Marie]

A noose, no. Around Halloween, yes. I think it's a prank. A sick one, yes.

Back to the tie...

[Haggis]

If I find a noose on my door -- gender and race notwithstanding -- I'm not laughing.

Until it's shown to be a hoax, it's not a laughing matter.

It's not a laughing matter if it's shown to be a hoax either, though we did have one not too long ago. I forget the individual and the university. And I'm not suggesting it's the same thing here. I simply don't know. But I think I'll wait until more information comes out before I come to any conclusions about this case.

[William Haskins]

yeah, there was this:


LOS ANGELES -- A former Claremont McKenna College visiting professor, who spray-painted her car with racist and anti-Semitic slurs and then reported a hate crime on campus, was sentenced today to a year in state prison.

Pomona Superior Court Judge Charles Horan said Kerri Dunn "terrorized" minority students at the college and turned the rest of the students into suspects, adding that her actions could have sparked major racial violence.

He likened her actions to calling in a fake bomb threat, saying it had the effect of terrorizing people.

http://www.knbc.com/education/3998600/detail.html

another possibility (in the columbia case) that police have alluded to is this:

A police official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because details of the investigation have not been made public, stressed that investigators were looking into a variety of possibilities. One is that the noose was placed on Madonna Constantine's door by another professor with whom she was having a dispute at the university's Teachers College, the police official said.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iUwttmNvW7iOK6GKRxlAY1OgnGeQD8S6KSE81

[Perks]

No I'm not. I assure you of that. It's not funny.
No it's not funny. A noose to rattle a black man or a black woman, whether it be a convenience, rather than the point, that the victim is black, is no joke.

People are assholes.

It just seems a bit odd in that place. With security. I've no detective's badge either, but if we have any sense of equality, a black person is just as likely to annoy someone as a white person. If that someone was the retaliatory type, a noose makes a globally offensive statement, as opposed to a 'You Suck' sign taped to the office door.

[Jean Marie]

Does this mean that the perp is a racist, but not a sexist?

Interesting to see how not knowing that might have coloured the discussion. Planned, William?
Actually, I thought it was common knowledge that it was a woman. I wasn't even paying attention to the article that William posted. I only went on the news that I'd heard, earlier.

I don't know if it had anything to do w/ race. I sure hope it didn't. I'm guessing it's a sick prank, as I just posted. At least that's what I hope it is. Especially after the Jena 6. That was awful and I feel horrible for the kid who's still in jail.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what does happen.

[poetinahat]

Actually, I thought it was common knowledge that it was a woman. I wasn't even paying attention to the article that William posted. I only went on the news that I'd heard, earlier.
Maybe it is where you are. It's not on the news where I am.

[Jean Marie]

Maybe it is where you are. It's not on the news where I am.
I keep forgetting you're in another time zone, Rob. It's been on the news for quite a while, here.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301046,00.html

here's everyone's favorite news link :D for ya.

[SpookyWriter]

Bring it on, smartboy. If you think you've a sharp enough tool to debone me.I got a Ronco deboner. When should I pay a visit.

[Joe270]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred? Only recently with this Louisiana case have I noticed a noose considered a threat to black people. Lynchings were pretty darn non-racial sorta evens, and lots of white folks got lynched, too.

Then there were the public hangings, those also not dominated by blacks.

Back in the seventies, making nooses was fairly popular with teenage boys, blacks and whites.

Kickers, what many of you folks might call cowboys, make nooses often. It's a way to work the ropes they use to rope cattle. I know black kickers who fashioned nooses. If you attend a rodeo, you'll see nooses.

On ships and rigs I saw nooses often, and never was there a complaint that the noose was some implied racist threat. This was up to 2001.

[Perks]

I got a Ronco deboner. When should I pay a visit.
I sleep with one eye open, so knock yourself out.

[Perks]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred? Only recently with this Louisiana case have I noticed a noose considered a threat to black people. Lynchings were pretty darn non-racial sorta evens, and lots of white folks got lynched, too.

Then there were the public hangings, those also not dominated by blacks.

Back in the seventies, making nooses was fairly popular with teenage boys, blacks and whites.

Kickers, what many of you folks might call cowboys, make nooses often. It's a way to work the ropes they use to rope cattle. I know black kickers who fashioned nooses. If you attend a rodeo, you'll see nooses.

On ships and rigs I saw nooses often, and never was there a complaint that the noose was some implied racist threat. This was up to 2001.Well, way back a million years ago when I was in highschool, I know that twice a cruel joke was made of a noose - once to an odd, white kid whose sister had hanged herself and once to a black boy for a reason I never knew, but I got the connotation right away.

Could be a bit of regional thing. I grew up in Virginia.

[Jean Marie]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred?
When one is hung on a black person's door, then it's fairly obvious what the intention is.

As for the Jena situation, it was apparent there, too.

I grew up in S. CA, and I knew the different nuances of a noose.

[SpookyWriter]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred?
http://www.indiana.edu/~letrs/vwwp/images/schreiner-trooper000.gif

I dunno, ask the white folks.

[Joe270]

Some of what I posted was in Virginia, Norfolk to be exact.

The rest is Texas and the gulf coast, and ships and offshore rigs.

[Jean Marie]

I sleep with one eye open, so knock yourself out.
Why am I not surprised?

[Perks]

Some of what I posted was in Virginia, Norfolk to be exact.

The rest is Texas and the gulf coast, and ships and offshore rigs.Well, there goes my theory, Joe. I got nuthin'.

Nooses are used for lots o' things, but unless you're suggesting Ms. Madonna Constantine is under suspicion for rustling steers, I don't guess I see your point.

[Jean Marie]

Some of what I posted was in Virginia, Norfolk to be exact.

The rest is Texas and the gulf coast, and ships and offshore rigs.
Right, but the typical association/visual of a noose is w/ a black person.

I understand what you're saying, Joe. But, lynchings are so much a sick part of our history, that it outweighs the other.

[Perks]

Why am I not surprised?Spooky needs to come see me. There's an element of destiny to it. Wanna bet who ends up in the 'Metro' section of the paper?

[InfinityGoddess]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred? Only recently with this Louisiana case have I noticed a noose considered a threat to black people.



The noose has always been a symbol of violence and terror to blacks, ever since even before Jim Crow. That hasn't changed. I don't recall whites getting lynched in racially-charged lynch mobs in my history classes.

[SpookyWriter]

Spooky needs to come see me. There's an element of destiny to it. Wanna bet who ends up in the 'Metro' section of the paper?I got a fiver on the broad with a mustache.

[Jean Marie]

Well, there goes my theory, Joe. I got nuthin'.

Nooses are used for lots o' things, but unless you're suggesting Ms. Madonna Constantine is under suspicion for rustling steers, I don't guess I see your point.
There's a statue of a bull on Wall Street, Jaimie, and that's it. So, the noose on Ms. Madonna's door is racially motivated, even though Joe's points of other uses for nooses are valid.

[Jean Marie]

Spooky needs to come see me. There's an element of destiny to it. Wanna bet who ends up in the 'Metro' section of the paper?
As opposed to the Society pages? Are you gonna wear a gown?

[Perks]

I got a fiver on the broad with a mustache.
Just shave, Spooky. I won't tell. But hands out of my drawer of unmentionables.

[Jean Marie]

The noose has always been a symbol of violence and terror to blacks, ever since even before Jim Crow. That hasn't changed. I don't recall whites getting lynched in racially-charged lynch mobs in my history classes.
Perks, Spooky and I have got this one, IG. But, thanks anyway.

[Perks]

As opposed to the Society pages? Are you gonna wear a gown?If there's to be Press, I suppose I should consider it. Although it sounds like Spooky wants to raid my closet more than make my final wish an imminent reality.

[Jean Marie]

Just shave, Spooky. I won't tell. But hands out of my drawer of unmentionables.
Is he talking about that photoshopped whathaveyou of you?

[SpookyWriter]

Just shave, Spooky. I won't tell. But hands out of my drawer of unmentionables.I already know where you keep the flyers for George McGovern.

[Perks]

Is he talking about that photoshopped whathaveyou of you?Nah, even Nichola wasn't crass enough to pencil in fuzz on my upper lip.

[Perks]

I already know where you keep the flyers for George McGovern.
oooh! Know the name, but you're dating yourself, Spooks. I'm gonna have to google that reference and see if it's funny.

Or I could just go with your track record...

[Jean Marie]

If there's to be Press, I suppose I should consider it. Although it sounds like Spooky wants to raid my closet more than make my final wish an imminent reality.
Absolutely, dress for the occasion. Ugh, Jon in a floor-length...I see nightmares in my very near future...hairy chest...opera length pearls...eeuuuu!

[SpookyWriter]

If there's to be Press, I suppose I should consider it. Although it sounds like Spooky wants to raid my closet more than make my final wish an imminent reality.I made your final dream come true when I change my shorts last month. Do I need to repeat this exercise every month just for you?

[Jean Marie]

Nah, even Nichola wasn't crass enough to pencil in fuzz on my upper lip.
Talk about twisted sister!

[SpookyWriter]

oooh! Know the name, but you're dating yourself, Spooks. I'm gonna have to google that reference and see if it's funny.

Or I could just go with your track record...I thought he was your last boyfriend. My bad. That was George Michaels.

[Perks]

I made your final dream come true when I change my shorts last month. Do I need to repeat this exercise every month just for you?

Shit. You dropped the hot potato. This was fun until you lost the plot.

sigh

[Jean Marie]

Shit. You dropped the hot potato. This was fun until you lost the plot.

sigh
Guy move.

[Perks]

Bah. I'm off to bed. Try not to burn the place down.

[Jean Marie]

Bah. I'm off to bed. Try not to burn the place down.
That's what I more or less rp'd you w/.

[SpookyWriter]

Shit. You dropped the hot potato. This was fun until you lost the plot.

sighI knew the plot. :D

[benbradley]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred? Only recently with this Louisiana case have I noticed a noose considered a threat to black people. Lynchings were pretty darn non-racial sorta evens, and lots of white folks got lynched, too.

Then there were the public hangings, those also not dominated by blacks.

Back in the seventies, making nooses was fairly popular with teenage boys, blacks and whites.

Kickers, what many of you folks might call cowboys, make nooses often. It's a way to work the ropes they use to rope cattle. I know black kickers who fashioned nooses. If you attend a rodeo, you'll see nooses.

On ships and rigs I saw nooses often, and never was there a complaint that the noose was some implied racist threat. This was up to 2001.
No doubt that as cowboys and those running sailing ships work with ropes and knots every day, they know how to make every kind of knot, and their practicing making knots, including nooses, can be a fun pastime of friendly competition to see who can make good knots the fastest.

Hanging a noose anonymously on someone's doorknob is a very different kind of pastime. It's more similar to putting a horse's head in someone's bed than it is to tying knots for practice.

There's another analogy I could make, but the response would be something like "You have invoked Godwin's Law. Do not pass go, do not collect $200."

[Joe270]

Sure, Ben, I understand a noose on someone's door nob or otherwise directed at them could very well be considered a threat. I would sure consider one hanging on my front door a threat.

But I don't understand the racial issue. Was this professor black?

Certainly I'm familiar with lynching of black people in the US, but that's only one small chapter of lynchings in the US, a small chapter in the use of nooses throughout US history.

Horses were ridden by KKK night riders, too, are they to be tapped as the next symbol of racial hatred?

I'm just saying this seems to be getting blown out of proportion. Yes, it is a vile, cowardly threat, but to call it a hate crime seems over the top.

[Perks]

Joe, what is this a picture of?

http://www.ernestbakersales.com/images/icthus-fish.gif



If it's on a sign over a shop on a pier, I think it's a fish.

If it's on a tie clip, is the guy a fishmonger or a Christian?

[III]

You're such a fishmongerer, Perks.

[Perks]

You're such a fishmongerer, Perks.I know you are, but what am I?

[tourdeforce]

Horses were ridden by KKK night riders, too, are they to be tapped as the next symbol of racial hatred?


Only when there are cops riding them.

[Celia Cyanide]

But I don't understand the racial issue. Was this professor black?

Why don't you check the quote from the article? William posted it in the OP.

[TheGaffer]

Well, there goes my theory, Joe. I got nuthin'.

Nooses are used for lots o' things, but unless you're suggesting Ms. Madonna Constantine is under suspicion for rustling steers, I don't guess I see your point.

"Stampeding cattle."

"That's not much of a crime."

"Through the Vatican?"

"Kinky! Sign here."

[TheGaffer]

Perks, Spooky and I have got this one, IG. But, thanks anyway.

That's uncalled for.

[Susan Gable]

I don't recall whites getting lynched in racially-charged lynch mobs in my history classes.

Not surprising since history teachers tend to frown on lynchings in class.

Susan G.

[TheGaffer]

But I don't understand the racial issue. Was this professor black?

Certainly I'm familiar with lynching of black people in the US, but that's only one small chapter of lynchings in the US, a small chapter in the use of nooses throughout US history.

Horses were ridden by KKK night riders, too, are they to be tapped as the next symbol of racial hatred?

I'm just saying this seems to be getting blown out of proportion. Yes, it is a vile, cowardly threat, but to call it a hate crime seems over the top.

The professor is black. And with public lynchings of black people -- for specious reasons or just for the hell of it -- common throughout the South in the first half of the 20th century, there's quite a bit of currency with the noose as a symbol of racial hatred. Whatever a noose was used for with regard to cattle, it was never used as a "symbol" regarding cattle. I'm not sure how you don't see this, joe.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10112007/photos/news007a.jpg


The prof. in question.

[Bird of Prey]

He's thinking of a lariat.

[Jacob]

OMG.

Columbia University in the heart of ultra-liberal New York City. Pause. Now, why would anybody do that? Think about it please.
Yeah,exactly what I thought. I mean if this took place in like the backwoods of Mississippi or something then maybe. "Sighs" I hope society will one day move past this level of stupidity/ignorance.

[Jacob]

When did a noose become a racist symbol of hatred? Only recently with this Louisiana case have I noticed a noose considered a threat to black people. Lynchings were pretty darn non-racial sorta evens, and lots of white folks got lynched, too.

Then there were the public hangings, those also not dominated by blacks.

Back in the seventies, making nooses was fairly popular with teenage boys, blacks and whites.

Kickers, what many of you folks might call cowboys, make nooses often. It's a way to work the ropes they use to rope cattle. I know black kickers who fashioned nooses. If you attend a rodeo, you'll see nooses.

On ships and rigs I saw nooses often, and never was there a complaint that the noose was some implied racist threat. This was up to 2001.
hUh?

[Jean Marie]

That's uncalled for.
Out of context, yes. In context, no.

Snottiness was not necessary in that situation, Gaff. Joe didn't realize that the Prof was black, first of all. The why of it, isn't necessary, but he didn't need to be spoken down to, in any event.

I stand by my comment.

I'm tired of the continual condescension on this board. It's disrespectful. It's only from a couple of posters, and I'm sure I'll get shot for saying what I just did.

[Jean Marie]

Yeah,exactly what I thought. I mean if this took place in like the backwoods of Mississippi or something then maybe. "Sighs" I hope society will one day move past this level of stupidity/ignorance.
Um, no. This is a campus that already has problems w/ racism, Jacob.

So, not so stupid or ignorant, although racism is stupid and ignorant, so there you have it.

[Tiger]

Yeah,exactly what I thought. I mean if this took place in like the backwoods of Mississippi or something then maybe. "Sighs" I hope society will one day move past this level of stupidity/ignorance.

I'm not sure society will move past it, unless some major rewiring of our species isn't done first. Good things can, and will be done at an institutional level through rules and regs, but I don't think human outlooks change all that much.

I don't think that college culture is all that tolerant, for example... the foci of intolerance seem to have shifted is all.

[Joe270]

Well, I suppose that it's just me and a few hundred folks I know. Personally, I don't equate a noose with racism.

Sure, a burning cross or a KKK outfit, yep.

But that's obviously not the prevailing black view. I was unaware that nooses carried such meaning to them.

I know that there is outrage over the stars and bars dixie flag as well, which I consider one sided and wrong. It is a part of our history. Banning it seems wrong to me.

If the black population wants to hate a flag, it should be the British flag.

[Perks]

Well, I suppose that it's just me and a few hundred folks I know. You asked a few hundred people about this since last night?

You must be a blast at parties.

[Jacob]

Um, no. This is a campus that already has problems w/ racism, Jacob.

So, not so stupid or ignorant, although racism is stupid and ignorant, so there you have it.
Im sorry if you misunderstood me. My comment was a speculation not a fact.
I m not sure what you mean? I wasnt saying racism doesnt exist there ,obviously it does?
Yes, Racism is both ignorant and stupid.
Im confused. :)

[Celia Cyanide]

Well, I suppose that it's just me and a few hundred folks I know. Personally, I don't equate a noose with racism.

Sure, a burning cross or a KKK outfit, yep.

But that's obviously not the prevailing black view. I was unaware that nooses carried such meaning to them.

I just thought I would post this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Fruit

The first thing I thought of when I read the story.

[Jean Marie]

Im sorry if you misunderstood me. My comment was a speculation not a fact.
I m not sure what you mean? I wasnt saying racism doesnt exist there ,obviously it does?
Yes, Racism is both ignorant and stupid.
Im confused. :)
Your original post, which was a response to Bird's, sounded surprised. As if it couldn't have happened where it did--Columbia. That's how I read it.

Did I misread? Sorry if I did :)

[William Haskins]

NEW YORK -- Police are continuing to investigate an anti-semitic message that included a swastika found etched into a bathroom wall at Columbia University, just two days after a noose was discovered hanging from the door of a professor at Teachers College.

In a message to the Columbia community, President Lee Bollinger said he was saddend by the second incident of hate in a week.

"The smear has been promptly removed and is now being investigated," he said.


http://www.wnbc.com/news/14322201/detail.html

[William Haskins]

There was a disturbing discovery near Ground Zero in Manhattan Thursday. A noose was found hanging from a lamppost at the Church Street Post Office. This is just the latest message of hate striking the city.

Police said it wasn't clear where or at whom the Church Street noose might have been directed.

"At this point, there was no target that was evident or any motive," U.S. Postal Inspection Service spokesman Al Weissman said Friday morning. He said no postal workers had reported any threats or other problems.

http://wcbstv.com/local/noose.post.office.2.342572.html

[astonwest]

The Greater New York Knot-Tying Club trying a membership drive?

[Perks]

Good grief, they've all gone crazy. Oh wait -- it's New York. Nevermind. Business as usual.

[Bird of Prey]

Dis you see the noose hanging from the door in the original article?

[billythrilly7th]

Where does one even buy a noose?

Rite-Aid?

I've never even seen one.

[Bird of Prey]

Obviously, your local noose store:

Knot Heads.

[small axe]

Don't fall into the "everything's racial" mindtrap that a hangman's noose is just about "lynching blacks" ...

For centuries, a hangman's noose was simply the legal and legitimate form of execution. There's that auto-sexual hanging thing that killed the lead singer of INXS (well, that's one rumour, anyway) and the Burroughs books ...

Here's what the true racial bigots DON'T get to claim or own:

They don't own the burning Cross. Christians have a claim to that symbol (countless cultures "own" the Cross)

They don't own the hangman's noose. (Unless Sadam was executed for being African-American ... and given how screwy Iraq is, who knows? But I think they hanged him because he was very very Bad)

They don't own the battle flag of the Confederate States of America. (Because the CSA wasn't all about Slavery, and the USA wasn't all about stopping Slavery)

Nazis, by the way, don't "own" swastikas ... it's an ancient Hindu and Buddhist symbol (again, many cultures honoured the swastika symbol ... and a**holes don't get to "own" the things they abuse)

They HANGED the Salem Witches ... and nooses aren't about hanging witches or wiccans (though the noose makes a lovely Halloween decoration ... and your Thugee neightbors will appreciate the shout out!)

http://www.tattoosymbol.com/tarot/small/rw_12.jpg

It's not all about Race and it's not all about Religion and it's not all about Sex, and it's not all about anyone's or any group's "pet peeve" ...

Smash hate and bigotry where is is ...
But it's not everywhere everyone wants to imagine it on a whim ...

And it's insulting when the media paint a picture of black folks trembling in fear under the shadow of a noose like they're victims of some ancient voodoo hex. People are scared of violence, obviously and rightfully ... but I'd bet that the actual reaction isn't "fear" but rather righteous anger and defiance.

But playing the "lynching" card is a pathetic ruse, whether it's coming from white racist bigots (yeah, like whites are the only people who've ever mob-killed anyone) who think they're "scaring" someone with a symbol (trust me, the lynch rope was never a logo, it was a mere threat of violence, and never as scary as a flaming tire, as terror-tactics go) or the media playing into that ruse for their own profits of stirring up a juicy story.

As others know, I'm happy to use the rope as a symbol for hanging the elite and the rich exploiters and politicians who try to play us against each other to hide their crimes against us all.

I won't have MY lynching rope tarnished by another's ignorant racist hooliganism!

I will defend the lynch rope and the guillotine against ALL who insult them!

[William Haskins]

a noose on a black professor's door—whether hoax, prank or genuine—is a racially charged symbol.

you can't pointy-head your way out of that.

[astonwest]

Lest we forget the 1960s Navy...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/us/27swastika.html

[small axe]

a noose on a black professor's door—whether hoax, prank or genuine—is a racially charged symbol.

you can't pointy-head your way out of that.

"Racially charged" by those busy looking for either a cheap electrical thrill or an excuse, maybe.

A noose on a white professor's door would still mean "lynching" and violence, right? So would it be any less a threat?

No.

Not unless we presume that we live in a modern society where you actually believe a black professor is more likely to suffer a lynching than a white one (what would a noose mean to a Muslim professor though? Would that be 'racially charged' too? Would a noose on a white female professor's door be "sexually charged" :) ???)

Not unless we accept that "race" always enters into it when one of the people involved is ... oh ... is what? We'd have to presume the individuals who hung the noose were white. Who says they were? Could a black man insult another black man by hanging a noose ... much in the way a woman can insult another woman by calling her a "c**t" ???

Sure ... I understand why the noose is SUPPOSED to be "racially charged" ... why that's the easy and kneejerk conclusion. I just suggest it ain't necessarily so.

I understand Supreme Court Justice Harold Thomas' anger when he accused his attackers of conducting "a modern day lynching" ...

But I can deplore a modern day "witch hunt" or "witch hanging" myself ... without being a witch.

The STUPIDITY and the HATE points to the lynchers, not the victim (so it doesn't matter to my point if the "victim" is black or white or male/female or gay/straight; we are all equally one in the victim, all equally enraged no matter who the victim is)

A threat of violence is just a threat of violence. I reject the notion that black folks have the right to claim that it's a threat specific to black folks. Ask a Jew if a noose isn't a threat. Ask a homosexual. Ask a white if a noose wouldn't be a threat to him or her ("Aw, it didn't scare me, I'm white. Nobody can lynch a white person!")

If I'd hang a noose up, it's got nothing to do with race.
I wouldn't want my message to be muddied by tawdry racism.
The noose is "free speech" like burning the USA flag. :)

People can burn the USA flag without hating all Americans, as political theatre, and a noose can be used as theatre no matter what the race of the people involved.

It's an act of HUMAN HATE and should be deplored as that (or as the people's justice against Tyrants, and ugly realpolitik. Sic semper tyrannis) ... not some glorification of one's own history of victimization and self-justifying reverse racism.

We'll drape our beloved noose across the porch this Halloween: it's not a symbol of racist hate.

We'll fly our nation's flag: I'm sorry if it flew over a nation that allowed the enslavement of my fellow human beings. But no, I won't hear those who proclaim it as a symbol of racial enslavement, I'll turn a sad ear because their accusations -- however heartfelt -- are empty.

It's a USA flag, by the way.



you can't pointy-head your way out of that.

And if the 'pointy head' comment is a reference to a KKK hood ... boy are YOU barking up the wrong tree. :)

[RumpleTumbler]

People can burn the USA flag without hating all Americans, as political theatre,

If someone were to put the flag out and set them on fire that would be a more enjoyable performance.

[InfinityGoddess]

I understand why the noose is SUPPOSED to be "racially charged" ... why that's the easy and kneejerk conclusion. I just suggest it ain't necessarily so.

A threat of violence is just a threat of violence. I reject the notion that black folks have the right to claim that it's a threat specific to black folks. Ask a Jew if a noose isn't a threat. Ask a homosexual. Ask a white if a noose wouldn't be a threat to him or her ("Aw, it didn't scare me, I'm white. Nobody can lynch a white person!")



You need to seriously brush up on your Jim Crow history lessons (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/history/history.htm).

[small axe]

You need to seriously brush up on your Jim Crow history lessons (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/history/history.htm).

Pithy comment that, but ... Actually, no I don't. :)

But you're free to explain WHY, I suppose.

[InfinityGoddess]

Pithy comment that, but ... Actually, no I don't. :)

But you're free to explain WHY, I suppose.

Because I believe, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, that you do.

You fail to see how nooses are racially charged, you say? Then you need to brush up.

[Celia Cyanide]

Not unless we accept that "race" always enters into it when one of the people involved is ... oh ... is what? We'd have to presume the individuals who hung the noose were white. Who says they were?

Uh, nobody. Regardless of who hung the noose, a noose on a black professor's door has certain connotations. The person who hung it could have done so for any number of reasons. However, if s/he didn't see it coming that people would read racism into it, then that person is very stupid.

[Jean Marie]

Uh, nobody. Regardless of who hung the noose, a noose on a black professor's door has certain connotations. The person who hung it could have done so for any number of reasons. However, if s/he didn't see it coming that people would read racism into it, then that person is very stupid.
Quadruple ditto.

Bolding is mine.

[small axe]

Originally Posted by small axe http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1720852#post1720852)
People can burn the USA flag without hating all Americans, as political theatre,


If someone were to put the flag out and set them on fire that would be a more enjoyable performance.

Well, I meant the Supreme Court ruled it was political free speech ... they 'can' do it legally ...

I know some folks who'd consider burning the flag as both too broad of a statement to be valid "political speech" (what specifically is the message there? If the First Amendment defends a free message, shouldn't there be a message to defend?) ... or "fighting words" ... or inciting a riot. At some point, you gotta assume you're asking for someone to pop you in the nose over it.

And some folks would see burning their flag as hatefully as others see hanging a "racially-charged" noose somewhere (since some here are talking about mere symbols) ...

I'm just suggesting that a noose can be colour-blind and non-racist.

You can hate a man for the content of his heart, regardless of the colour of his skin ...

[Jean Marie]

Riiiight.

Noose on black woman's door = racism.

More than obvious even to someone who's color blind.

[small axe]

Originally Posted by small axe http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1720892#post1720892)
Pithy comment that, but ... Actually, no I don't. :)

But you're free to explain WHY, I suppose.


Because I believe, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, that you do.

You fail to see how nooses are racially charged, you say? Then you need to brush up.

Oh, is that all you had backing you up? That's your explanation? Then never mind.

You "need" to read what I wrote ...

You "need" to understand that no one else "needs" to do anything simply because you disagree with something. Even if you're not 'alone' ...

*shrug*

Some stranger standing behind me in an elevator doesn't "need" to be sexually charged either ... it can just be a stranger in an elevator when I'm uncomfortable.

Subjective feelings don't "need" to outweigh objective fact ... but too many people allow it.

[small axe]

Riiiight.

Noose on black woman's door = racism.

More than obvious even to someone who's color blind.

Only if you buy into their race-based definition of a noose (that noose=racism)

What message would a noose on a white woman's door convey? Wouldn't she be rightfully frightened or insulted too? (Do I hear someone say "not as much" ??? I reject that, yes.)

I choose a "colour-blind" interpretation, while acknowledging the threat and the insult ...

Why do people have a problem with that?

Unless it's because they WANT to see a "racist" basis for simple human hatred.

"Race-hate" serves some people's agendas ... where mere hatred doesn't.

I reject their agendas.

Uh, nobody. Regardless of who hung the noose, a noose on a black professor's door has certain connotations. The person who hung it could have done so for any number of reasons. However, if s/he didn't see it coming that people would read racism into it, then that person is very stupid.


Well, I'm interested in the 'any number of reasons' ... not the first kneejerk one that arrives before the mind can even consider all the possible reasons.

And I agree that, dumbed-down, 'people would read racism into it' ...

'People' read that a woman was have a good time, drinking at a bar, wearing 'revealing' clothes, dancing 'suggestively' and flirting with men ... and then she's assaulted or date-raped ... and some 'people' think she somehow bears responsibility for being attacked.

Sometimes 'people' are wrong.

Sometimes, 'people' are easily played and manipulated ... by more cynical people with agendas.

I reject the manipulation. I reject their agendas.

Hanging a noose is the act of threat and insult against a woman in your example. Black, Muslim, Jewish, Latino, White ... Who among you is telling us one woman gets to feel more threatened or insulted because of her race than another?

For the black it's suddenly all KKK?
For the Muslim it's all 9/11 anti-Muslim hatred?
For the Jewish woman it's anti-semitism and the Nazis hanging girls from telephone poles in Poland?
For the Latina it's "Illegals go home" ???

For the white chick it's "Oh, you're a RACIST white chick!" :)

Nooses are scary. Racism (and protests of racism) can be a ploy, an agenda.

Hate is hate, and hate is all I care about here.

[Cranky]

Only if you buy into their race-based definition of a noose (that noose=racism)

What message would a noose on a white woman's door convey? Wouldn't she be rightfully frightened or insulted too? (Do I hear someone say "not as much" ??? I reject that, yes.)

I choose a "colour-blind" interpretation, while acknowledging the threat and the insult ...

Why do people have a problem with that?

Unless it's because they WANT to see a "racist" basis for simple human hatred.

"Race-hate" serves some people's agendas ... where mere hatred doesn't.

I reject their agendas.

Seriously, man, that sounds a lot like "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Tell me, don't you think a black woman who finds a noose hanging from her door is going to think it's a racially motivated threat? I sure would.

[small axe]

Seriously, man, that sounds a lot like "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

It sounds like "I reject your subjective trip or your subjective agenda." :)

We could still agree on objective 'reality'


Tell me, don't you think a black woman who finds a noose hanging from her door is going to think it's a racially motivated threat? I sure would.


Are you a black woman?

I "think" a black woman may well go through her day being more concerned about sexual assault, than racial lynching.

When was America's last bona fide racial lynching of a living person, by the way?
What year?
Anyone know?


I'm not denying the 'lynching' or the 'noose' metaphor ... I'm rejecting its specifically "racist" meanings and the agendas of those wanting to make it a racial wedge between Americans.

A jealous white guy who sees his girlfriend kissing a black guy may use racial slurs towards them ... but I'd call that one guy being jealous and betrayed and angry and using whatever hate words he has to fling in anger.

If the black guy's black and muslim and in a wheelchair ... the white guy might try to insult him with hateful slurs about being black OR muslim OR in a wheelchair ... but they might just be the same hate and jealousy the white guy would feel even if he caught his girlfriend with another white guy, right?

So the hate isn't about being black or muslim or in a wheel chair ... it's about jealousy. It's dressed up as 'race hate' because those are the easy buttons to punch.

Easy to punch, easy to misuse, easy to misunderstand.

***

And, in all due respect: I'm not swayed by statements about how "obvious" something seems to others, subjectively.

It's the "obviousness" that forms the manipulation and the kneejerk reaction. That's what the lynch mob feeds off of :) ... the obvious ways they're manipulated and their unthinking kneejerk reaction.

[Cranky]

It sounds like "I reject your subjective trip or your subjective agenda." :)

We could still agree on objective 'reality'



Are you a black woman?

I "think" a black woman may well go through her day being more concerned about sexual assault, than racial lynching.

When was America's last bona fide racial lynching of a living person, by the way?
What year?
Anyone know?




I'm not denying the 'lynching' or the 'noose' metaphor ... I'm rejecting its specifically "racist" meanings and the agendas of those wanting to make it a racial wedge between Americans.

A jealous white guy who sees his girlfriend kissing a black guy may use racial slurs towards them ... but I'd call that one guy being jealous and betrayed and angry and using whatever hate words he has to fling in anger.

If the black guy's black and muslim and in a wheelchair ... the white guy might try to insult him with hateful slurs about being black OR muslim OR in a wheelchair ... but they might just be the same hate and jealousy the white guy would feel even if he caught his girlfriend with another white guy, right?

So the hate isn't about being black or muslim or in a wheel chair ... it's about jealousy. It's dressed up as 'race hate' because those are the easy buttons to punch.

Easy to punch, easy to misuse, easy to misunderstand.

***

And, in all due respect: I'm not swayed by statements about how "obvious" something seems to others, subjectively.

It's the "obviousness" that forms the manipulation and the kneejerk reaction. That's what the lynch mob feeds off of :) ... the obvious ways they're manipulated and their unthinking kneejerk reaction.

No, I am not a black woman. And I suppose most women (black, white, or whatever color) are probably more worried about a sexual assault than a lynching, yes. The stats would bear that out, I'm sure.

That said, why would a black woman, upon seeing a noose hanging from her door, NOT think of a lynching? I don't get the leap to sexual assault from a noose. You see what I'm saying?

It's a much more obvious connection to make, no matter that it's -in reality, yes- much more likely a woman would be sexually assaulted than lynched.

[billythrilly7th]

We'll drape our beloved noose across the porch this Halloween: it's not a symbol of racist hate.


Oh boy.

This sounds like the Bart "this is why it's okay to have a swastika in my sig" type rationalization.

[oswann]

It sounds like "I reject your subjective trip or your subjective agenda." :)

We could still agree on objective 'reality'



Are you a black woman?

I "think" a black woman may well go through her day being more concerned about sexual assault, than racial lynching.

When was America's last bona fide racial lynching of a living person, by the way?
What year?
Anyone know?


I'm not denying the 'lynching' or the 'noose' metaphor ... I'm rejecting its specifically "racist" meanings and the agendas of those wanting to make it a racial wedge between Americans.

A jealous white guy who sees his girlfriend kissing a black guy may use racial slurs towards them ... but I'd call that one guy being jealous and betrayed and angry and using whatever hate words he has to fling in anger.

If the black guy's black and muslim and in a wheelchair ... the white guy might try to insult him with hateful slurs about being black OR muslim OR in a wheelchair ... but they might just be the same hate and jealousy the white guy would feel even if he caught his girlfriend with another white guy, right?

So the hate isn't about being black or muslim or in a wheel chair ... it's about jealousy. It's dressed up as 'race hate' because those are the easy buttons to punch.

Easy to punch, easy to misuse, easy to misunderstand.

***

And, in all due respect: I'm not swayed by statements about how "obvious" something seems to others, subjectively.

It's the "obviousness" that forms the manipulation and the kneejerk reaction. That's what the lynch mob feeds off of :) ... the obvious ways they're manipulated and their unthinking kneejerk reaction.

This is bollocks.

Os.

[small axe]

This is bollocks.

Os.

http://www.acc.umu.se/~samhain/summerofhate/nmtbpostermedium.jpg

So everyone's got an opinion. Let me know when you rule the world by fiat so I know it matters. Big whoop. Personal hygiene is still so important.


This sounds like the Bart "this is why it's okay to have a swastika in my sig" type rationalization.

For a moment I thought you meant Bart Simpson did some sort of riff on swastikas and I was going to ask how it went, because the Simpsons rock! But then I realized, you mean Bart here at AW ...

Buddha was born with a swastika on his foot, you see it on statues alot.

Bart Simpson riffing on swastikas would've been interesting, though. Too bad.

That said, why would a black woman, upon seeing a noose hanging from her door, NOT think of a lynching?

My point would be that EVERYONE would think of lynching ... so why should black folks make it an especially "racist" thing?

How many Armenians were lynched during the Turkish genocide? Perhaps more Armenians than blacks. Is the noose not a "symbol" of anti-Armenian hatred?

Why aren't all women outraged because it was a hate crime against WOMEN (rather than viewing it as a hate crime against blacks) ???

I just see it as either some people playing it to advantage their agenda, or falling for it without thinking things through beyond the obvious manipulation.

I just choose to see it in a broader human perspective than "race" ...

If you told me someone was lynched, I wouldn't care if they were black or white or male or female at first, I'd just think "how horrible someone was lynched."

If I told someone that, and their first question was "Oh no! Were they black or white?!" ... I'd be disgusted.

I'm wondering if the victim's race wouldn't matter to a few here.

That's how I see it. Those who wish may now join hands and all be outraged by that, I suppose ...

I'm done with over-explaining it, I guess ...

[oswann]

So everyone's got an opinion. Let me know when you rule the world by fiat so I know it matters.


Okay.

Os.

[Celia Cyanide]

So everyone's got an opinion. Let me know when you rule the world by fiat so I know it matters.

Does your opinion matter? If so, why does Oswann's not?

[InfinityGoddess]

Oh, is that all you had backing you up? That's your explanation? Then never mind.

You "need" to read what I wrote ...

You "need" to understand that no one else "needs" to do anything simply because you disagree with something. Even if you're not 'alone' ...

*shrug*

Some stranger standing behind me in an elevator doesn't "need" to be sexually charged either ... it can just be a stranger in an elevator when I'm uncomfortable.

Subjective feelings don't "need" to outweigh objective fact ... but too many people allow it.

All I know that everything you've just said in this entire thread is utter nonsense. You can't seem to grasp why hanging a noose is so threatening to a black person. That stuff goes all the way back to Jim Crow, where lynching blacks to "keep them in their place" was not uncommon. It still has negative connotations to the black community even today.

That's why I told you to brush up on your history about Jim Crow. So you can understand better.

[Jean Marie]

Only if you buy into their race-based definition of a noose (that noose=racism)

What message would a noose on a white woman's door convey? Wouldn't she be rightfully frightened or insulted too? (Do I hear someone say "not as much" ??? I reject that, yes.)

I choose a "colour-blind" interpretation, while acknowledging the threat and the insult ...

Why do people have a problem with that?

Unless it's because they WANT to see a "racist" basis for simple human hatred.

"Race-hate" serves some people's agendas ... where mere hatred doesn't.

I reject their agendas.



Well, I'm interested in the 'any number of reasons' ... not the first kneejerk one that arrives before the mind can even consider all the possible reasons.

And I agree that, dumbed-down, 'people would read racism into it' ...

'People' read that a woman was have a good time, drinking at a bar, wearing 'revealing' clothes, dancing 'suggestively' and flirting with men ... and then she's assaulted or date-raped ... and some 'people' think she somehow bears responsibility for being attacked.

Sometimes 'people' are wrong.

Sometimes, 'people' are easily played and manipulated ... by more cynical people with agendas.

I reject the manipulation. I reject their agendas.

Hanging a noose is the act of threat and insult against a woman in your example. Black, Muslim, Jewish, Latino, White ... Who among you is telling us one woman gets to feel more threatened or insulted because of her race than another?

For the black it's suddenly all KKK?
For the Muslim it's all 9/11 anti-Muslim hatred?
For the Jewish woman it's anti-semitism and the Nazis hanging girls from telephone poles in Poland?
For the Latina it's "Illegals go home" ???

For the white chick it's "Oh, you're a RACIST white chick!" :)

Nooses are scary. Racism (and protests of racism) can be a ploy, an agenda.

Hate is hate, and hate is all I care about here.
Wow.

Based on historical fact, as opposed to manipulation or agenda(s).

The only way to fight racism, is to understand/believe that it exists in the first place. Otherwise, it will continue unabated.

[small axe]

Does your opinion matter? If so, why does Oswann's not?

Odd that you too wonder why Oswann's opinion doesn't matter ...

I in fact wasn't responding to the validity of Oswann's opinion one way or the other. As I said:


Originally Posted by small axe http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1721183#post1721183)
So everyone's got an opinion. Let me know when you rule the world by fiat so I know it matters.


I was pointing to the differences of how some people choose to present their opinions.

Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with MY opinion, I took the effort to try to EXPLAIN my opinion.

Oswann merely said
This is bollocks.

No explanation, no backing reasoning ... just the opinion. As if Oswann's opinion were FIAT and needed no explanation, no willingness to take the effort to share with us the thoughts behind the condemnation.

Fiat.

Well, I asked to be informed should Oswann's opinions ever carry the value or the weight of being fiats ... since the 'bollocks' comment seemed to take itself as seriously as a fiat and not merely another opinion in a thread full of opinions, as I'd offered mine.

I knew mine might require some explanation. It was a common courtesy i was glad to share ... while perhaps others were not. :)

*shrug*

It's just a style of presentation thing, but I'll stick with mine: freely offer my thoughts in a thread, politely share my thinking behind them ... and not throw a pointless insult at someone else's.

[Perks]

That said, why would a black woman, upon seeing a noose hanging from her door, NOT think of a lynching? I don't get the leap to sexual assault from a noose. You see what I'm saying?

Since when has a hanging noose been associated with sexual assaults? (I know that's small axe, not you, cranky, who is asserting this.)

The hanging noose connotes suicide or horse-thieving except when there is a black person involved in the scenario - then it's lynching. Hanging - true, noosed, string-ups - as a function of sexual assault doesn't even enter the mind. If you're talking about auto-erotic asphyxiation, I can't be sure, but I doubt swinging by the neck is worth it. I'm sure it's a wicked orgasm, but sadly you can only do it once.

I honestly can't understand why anyone would want to pretend that a noose, as anything other than a self-tied means of exit or a function of old-west (or Iraqi) justice, is separated from a racial threat.

[small axe]

The only way to fight racism, is to understand/believe that it exists in the first place. Otherwise, it will continue unabated.

I can 'understand' and 'believe' racism exists ... yet refuse to see it as a boogeyman where it does NOT exist. And refuse to be manipulated by it.

I can also decide that what really MATTERS isn't to fight the subset of 'racism' (which is manipulated to serve others' cynical agendas) ... but rather to fight the totality of ALL HUMAN HATRED.

End Hatred and ending racism happens too.

Cry "racism" and you immediately polarize and antagonize the people involved. You immediately begin dividing people between racial lines (are you a white who is a racist or not? Are you a black who is a victim or not? Is the black man looking at your white skin assuming you are a racist already? Do you now need to "apologize" for something you've never been guilty of because your skin is one colour or another? etc)

End Hate. Nobody feels threatened or accused if you keep it simple: END HATE.

Don't play a racist's game. And crying "racism" is playing the racist's game.

Fight HATE and everyone is on your side, because everybody's HUMAN BEINGS.

Fight "RACISM" and suddenly everyone has to treat each other ACCORDING TO RACE.

Fighting only HATE takes a stronger fight (see the conflict arising here, simply because I don't care to label the problem the way others want it labeled) ... but it is the stronger victory to win. :Hug2:

[Perks]

So, small axe, you think the noose may have been a invite, for the professor, to a kinky party?

[Jean Marie]

So, small axe, you think the noose may have been a invite, for the professor, to a kinky party?
Some refuse to look at historical facts as they are, Jaimie. They're like the holocaust deniers, if they say it isn't so, then they don't have to deal w/ the reality of it.

[TheGaffer]

Nazis, by the way, don't "own" swastikas ... it's an ancient Hindu and Buddhist symbol (again, many cultures honoured the swastika symbol ... and a**holes don't get to "own" the things they abuse)

True.

But if someone goes over to a synagogue or a Jewish cemetary and paints the swastika all over the gravestones/temple, they're not making a point about ancient Hinduism. They're trying to provoke using a charged symbol of bigotry.

[TheGaffer]

I'm just suggesting that a noose can be colour-blind and non-racist.


Yes, it can be. But nobody is arguing that it cannot be.

But when you hang it on the door of a black professor's office, it is not color-blind, and it is racist. If you hang it outside your house with a scarecrow in it with a pumpkin head, then yes, it is color-blind and it is not-racist.

[Celia Cyanide]

Don't play a racist's game. And crying "racism" is playing the racist's game.

This is ridiculous. Are you saying that in order to avoid playing "a racist's game," we must never identify racism when we see it?

A noose can certainly have other implications, small axe, but the racist implications are evident. The person who hung it is responsible for that symbol and how it is interpreted.

[Tiger]

This whole argument is really ridiculous.

Not everything's subject to such backward-bending inspection. I see a far greater effort spent re-interpretting a noose on a black woman's door as "not necessarily racism," than what it could possibly take to mis-interpret it "as racism."

[Dawno]

Good point Tiger - I think it's time to leave this line of discussion. If there's nothing else substantive to say about the news article or something relevant to it, let's let this one sink.

[small axe]

Some refuse to look at historical facts as they are, Jaimie. They're like the holocaust deniers, if they say it isn't so, then they don't have to deal w/ the reality of it.

'Holocaust deniers' ... that's funny. Predictable and desperate ... but funny.

I'm not 'denying' the Holocaust ... I brought up Polish Jewish girls being hanged from telephone poles, several comments ago.

That's why nooses aren't the 'black' thing some of you demand it be.

To say nooses are a 'black' thing only is to deny that the noose is a terrible thing for Jews too.

For those who need the Cliff's Notes to catch up: nooses are terrible threats ... and the threat is not "owned" by just African Americans. :D

I live in one of the last towns in the North where black men were lynched. It's not some abstract "symbol" here ... it's not some easy kneejerk button to push by pseudo-intellectuals and those who refuse to recognize the racism within themselves (no one here) ... it's a wound in the town's psyche.

Don't cheapen the Holocaust (or dog-and-pony the deniers) by trying to drag it in as another card to play here. ;)

[Jean Marie]

Good point Tiger - I think it's time to leave this line of discussion. If there's nothing else substantive to say about the news article or something relevant to it, let's let this one sink.
As opposed to watching the dog chase its tail. 'Cause, I'm getting dizzy.

So, whatcha think of my new avatar ;)

Thanks, Mac :Hug2:

The photo was taken at one of my favorite beaches that just opened to puppy walking :D

[Cranky]

I don't think it was ever argued that a noose was a threat strictly for African Americans.

In fact, to my mind, the fact that you bring up the fact that it's been used against Jews sorta proves the point that a hanging noose can be a racially motivated threat, when used to threaten someone who is black, Jewish, or whatever... in other words, someone of a particular race that has been persecuted by hanging nooses, etc.

If a black person sees a noose hanging from their door, they're going to see it as a racially motivated threat. I would imagine that someone Jewish would perceive it the same way, which in no way invalidates the racist nature of the threat.

[poetinahat]

Dawno asked for an end to this 'symbol' discussion. No more, okay? Thanks.

[Jean Marie]

Dawno asked for an end to this 'symbol' discussion. No more, okay? Thanks.
Yeah, and I asked what you thought about my new avatar, Poet man :) It's the first new one I've had...in 2 years, y'know.

Mac had to do it, 'cause I don't know how. But, that shouldn't stop you from commenting :D

[Perks]

For those who need the Cliff's Notes to catch up: nooses are terrible threats ... and the threat is not "owned" by just African Americans. :D

I don't know if this is out of bounds by the new hem (needed for sure) in this thread, but why in the world would you put a 'grinny' next to a sentence like that?

[small axe]

I don't know if this is out of bounds by the new hem (needed for sure) in this thread, but why in the world would you put a 'grinny' next to a sentence like that?

It's an early Russian film thing. It's called the Kuleshov effect or editing technique. It's about juxtaposition and interpretation.

It makes me smile, like this: :D

[Jean Marie]

Oh please, axe.

We're commenting on a situation that occurred which is representative of historical facts. It's as simple as that. You've taken a baloney sandwich and construed it to fit your personal opinion/belief/value system.

Nothing more and nothing less.

In any event, Dawno asked, nicely for all of us to end this discussion. I've just violated that request by responding to you.

My apologies to you, Dawno. If you want to delete this post, feel free.

[Perks]

It's an early Russian film thing. It's called the Kuleshov effect or editing technique. It's about juxtaposition and interpretation.

It makes me smile, like this: :DAh, I had a raunchy case of borborygmi on that day in Russian film school. That's explains why you make no sense to me. I knew there had to be a reason.

[RumpleTumbler]

It's an early Russian film thing. It's called the Kuleshov effect or editing technique. It's about juxtaposition and interpretation.

It makes me smile, like this: :D

It escapes you that you're the only one who thinks you're cute.

[small axe]

It escapes you that you're the only one who thinks you're cute.

'Cute' has nothing to do with it (except maybe for you, since you brought it up) ...

I answered a direct question from another writer: It's an early Russian film thing. It's called the Kuleshov effect or editing technique. It's about juxtaposition and interpretation.

As for this:
Dawno asked for an end to this 'symbol' discussion. No more, okay? Thanks.

I read Dawno's comment, and honestly, I didn't catch that Dawno is a MODERATOR.

Sorry. I wouldn't have ignored dropping it, if I'd caught it came from a Mod.

I'd feel bad about having the comment deleted, except ... well ... explain something nine times, and losing the tenth isn't much loss: I was content after explaining it twice ... at which point anyone I was talking to already would've grasped my point.

No one had to agree with it, of course. (Inability to grasp it would be another issue, though ... but of course one I assume is not allowed for further discussion here, either)

The Boy Scouts and sailors have LOTS OF KNOTS we could talk about. ;)

Anyway, here's the thing I do apologize for: I overlooked the Moderator saying "drop it" ...

[astonwest]

I have doubts any more meaningful discussion can come from this thread, in my opinion...

[Dawno]

As for this:


I read Dawno's comment, and honestly, I didn't catch that Dawno is a MODERATOR.

Sorry. I wouldn't have ignored dropping it, if I'd caught it came from a Mod.

...

Anyway, here's the thing I do apologize for: I overlooked the Moderator saying "drop it" ...

Well, now you know.

I have doubts any more meaningful discussion can come from this thread, in my opinion...

Yep, I agree.