Rate this dialogue(3rd Revision)

[Caroyles]

INT. DR MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY
Miranda has a notepad with her. She leans back on her seat,
observing Gary. He looks down, clasping both of his hand.

MIRANDA
Talk it out, Gary. I am here to help.

GARY
I...I...

Miranda waits.

GARY
I...I don't know where to start.

MIRANDA
How do you feel right now?

Miranda puts away the notepad.

GARY
Nervous.

MIRANDA
How about trust?

GARY
Trust?

MIRANDA
Do you doubt me?

Gary raises his head.

GARY
What makes you say that?

MIRANDA
I didn't say that. I am asking you that.

GARY
Oh...

Gary lowers his head once more.

GARY
I think, I do...I do doubt you.

MIRANDA
Why?

GARY
I...I don't know. I mean...it's just that my
problem sounds ridiculous. You know...those
problems that people will laugh and call you
silly...that sort of thing.

MIRANDA
What makes you think that I will find it
ridiculous?

GARY
I....I don't know...Gut feeling?

MIRANDA
Is this 'gut feeling' telling you that this
is the best for you?

GARY
What do you mean by that?

MIRANDA
Your gut feeling tells you that I am seeing
your problem as a ridiculous one right?

GARY
...Ya

MIRANDA
Is that the best for you?

There is a moment of silence.

GARY
No...no it isn't the best for me.

MIRANDA
What do you want to do now?

GARY
I...I want to trust you.

Miranda waits.

GARY
Can I trust you?

MIRANDA
Would you believe me if I said yes?

GARY
I...I do.

A short pause and...

GARY
It's about this girl that...I'm obsessed
with. She is constantly in my mind, even as
we speak...My feelings for her is so great.
It sounds crazy.
(a beat)
I am crazy. I am in love with her. But I can't love her.

MIRANDA
Why not?

GARY
Because she is a working lady.

MIRANDA
Working lady?

GARY
Ya...working lady...you know a lady who
performs...services for man.

MIRANDA
I'm not quite sure what that means. Is she a
massager?

GARY
Not quite.

MIRANDA
What kind of service? Sexual?

A long pause ensues.

GARY
Can we cut out that word? Service sounds
pleasant enough.

MIRANDA
I'm sorry. I hope I haven't lost that trust
we share.

GARY
No, I understand your lack of comprehension
for such topics. After all, you're a decent
woman.

MIRANDA
Why can't you love a working lady?

GARY
Such relationships are despised by
society. But that's not the main reason.

MIRANDA
What is the main reason?

GARY
I'm afraid that she doesn't want me.

MIRANDA
Is that 'gut feeling' again?

GARY
(a beat)
Yes. You can say that.

MIRANDA
Try to put aside that gut feeling of yours
and ask yourself what do you want?

A long pause ensues again.

GARY
I want her. But I'm afraid.

MIRANDA
Which is stronger, the fear or the love?

GARY
I...don't really know.

MIRANDA
I take it as you have been using your gut
feelings all this time and have yet to ask
her how she feels?

GARY
I would like to make another confession as
well.

MIRANDA
Mmm?

[vig]

you've come a long way in the pages. if i could boil down one point, one minor thing that could be an example of the things you should not do in scripts.

'A long pause ensues.'

we as writers have the tendency to want to explain everything. it's a character flaw. pauses don't ensue. that just don't.

a fight ensues. a verbal battle ensues, but not a pause.

i mean in reality, a pause can ensue, but it's just not needed. there is a lot of implied movement in screenplays, things that are done in actual time on screen that don't warrant stage direction. it's the subtle underbelly of the craft.

the problem with screenwriting that really can work against you is the way they are written.

a screenplay is it's own animal (not an actual animal) but has it's own way the writer is allowed, even encouraged to short hand the script.

a screenplay is kind of like how ten comics would treat their shows. short ten minute bursts that have a beginng middle and end, then the next comic comes on board and does his thing; as the writer you take the 'acts' and put them together.

so what you did was translate the 'actual word beat', into prose and it does read better.

now, what you have to do is structure the scene so that it's all organic, where you don't really have to tell the reader that ' a long pause ensues.

the thing i'm trying to touch upon is the beauty of screenwriitng is the flair in which the writer bends the rules. and that's the paradox you are in. you need to know the rules, bofore the slang, then you need to abuse the words.

very, very complicated. all in all, i do applaud your effort and can see you a good study

but the vinegar is you still have a long way to go before you sleep.

vig

[Joe Calabrese]

I agree with Vig. This is better, but still lacks finese, IMHO.

I think you can trim more. A lot of this dialog is repititious and somewhat on the nose. Some of it can be shown with action as well. Oh. I would never say the girl I am obsessed with. sounds too formal. What happened to love?

Dialog is tough. you want to convey information without making it obvious you are doing so. You want to give characters unique and distinct voices, but not so much that the reader would have a hard time understanding the lines. and you want to say as little as possible but give the most information you can as well.

You are going in the right direction. Keep it up.

[Caroyles]

Ah...finally some pleasant feedbacks.
I am surprised when vig says getting better. Never expected that from him. Thank you guys for reading.

I will wait for a few more comments before I work on it again.

[randesq]

Perhaps, what will help most . . . charge into the belly of the beast and apply the same vigor to ALL your pages, not just a vignette. No doubt, when you're done with the rewrite somethings might be apparent on their own. The only thing that can improve your writing is to write more. As crazy as it sounds, you have to be your own filter. I believe when you've rewritten these 100 or so pages, you'll start seeing the pieces that won't work. It's going to take a lot of pages to get to the point where you're satisfied, so I encourage you to stop hammering these particular pages and apply what you've learned to all your pages. GL

[35mm]

Caroylse I have reworked your entire scene to give you an idea what good story structure should look like in a scene. By no means am I advocating you use my material. This is just one possibility. So take it for what it's worth. I hope you will like it.

Scene taken from Caroylse revised by 35mm.

INT. DR MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY - ESTABLISHING

The office is luxuries to look at. Paintings and awards checker the walls like trophies. The room is painted a forest green colour giving it a melancholy signature. In one end of the room next to the window is a black leather couch. On the other side of the room directly in front of the couch is a comfortable looking chair. A wooden desk is stationed beside the chair.

Miranda is sitting in the comfortable looking chair with a notepad in her hands. Gary is sitting on the couch sideways. His eyes looking directly at his hands which are clasped together in his lap.


MIRANDA
Talk it out Gary, I am here to help.

GARY
What kind of man have I become?

Gary grabs his face as if to start crying.

MIRANDA
What sort of trouble are you in now?

GARY
I am a ****ing loser! A pathetic loser!

MIRANDA
(Spoken-tense)
Gary your not a loser!

GARY
(Lifts his head up)
I am everything that is wrong with this world. I am the typical American social junky. I crave reassurance from a cradit card.

Gary looks at Miranda.

MIRANDA
What did you say?

GARY
My problems are not in here. They are with the working girl that I love but I have been too afriad to admit it to myself.

MIRANDA
Gary I think we should put you on some medication.

GARY
You stupid plastic *****! You don't give a **** about my problems. You sit there like god and tell me how I should feel.

Gary gets up from the couch.

GARY
My true love is a prostitute. That's right a whore! She screws people for money which she isn't even allowed to keep. If it wasn't for that pimp she would have a better life.

MIRANDA
Get out Gary. You need help which I can't offer you. Find another psychiatrist.

GARY
You pimps are all the same.

[Optimus]

Uh...yeah.

That's so much better.

:Smack:

[Joe Calabrese]

It is better if you want the therapist a totally different character and the scene to be completely different in action and goals.

In the writer's version, the therapist's goal is to get Gary to go for his feelings rather than what's in his head. She is nurturing, kind and helpful.

In this rewrite, all that is lost. In fact, the therapist is completely different.

Now, how would you rewrite it, keeping the characters the same, keeping the same intent and goals?

When doing rewrites on existing material you got to keep the writer's original intent intact-- unless the producer tells you different.

[randesq]

really goes to show you that you have to be careful where you get your advice from. 35 mm - wow. There's exposition in that narrative that can
choke a camel. You never want to TELL.

"The room is painted a forest green colour giving it a melancholy signature."

This and most of your set up doesn't contribute to story. We're not designing sets here. You've chosen to use all passive verbs and the dialogue is OTN.

Car - get out of this scene, push your story forward and whatever you NEED to show in this vignette may make more sense when you flesh out your story.

[35mm]

Joe your absolutely right. The scene is quite different. It's just one example of what a tight written scene might look like. I don't expect Caroylse to use any of it in her final draft.

[35mm]

Randesq show me one instance where I gave any one bad advice. If you can prove it to me that it was bad advice I will happily stand corrected.

You said-really goes to show you that you have to be careful where you get your advice from. 35 mm - wow. There's exposition in that narrative that can
choke a camel. You never want to TELL.

35mm says:

Well Randesq I think your confusing exposition for scenery discription. Exposition pushes the story forward not scene discription.

I am a very visual person. I want the reader to see my vision so I write the way I think the reader should see it. I don't always write long scene discriptions but sometimes it is necessary and a writer is allowed to make those kind of choices.

Thanks for your comments.

[Optimus]

:Wha:

You've GOT to be kidding me, 35mm.

Your rewrite is ANYTHING but tight and well-written.

It's crap. Not as bad as Caroyles, but crap nonetheless.

As Joe said, if you rewrite someone's scene, you need to keep their vision and their characters true to original intent.

Not only did you totally change her characters into ones just as badly written, but your narrative is horrendously overwritten.

Again, you guys seem to be missing the point. I'm not emphasizing Caroyle's horrible grammar, spelling, syntax, and word usage mistakes just for the hell of it. I'm not avoiding telling her tips on how to improve her story and structure (as a few here have whined about).

She cannot and will not ever be able to grasp the nuance and mechanics of crafting a well-structured, character-driven scene if she doesn't have the ability to properly use the tools - of grammar, syntax, word choice, etc - which comprise a well-structured, character-driven scene.

She's trying to run when she can't even crawl. An idiot will tell her things like, "You're doing great. But, you should try to skip first." Or, in this case, tell her things like "you should work on structure and character. That's what's REALLY important."

I'm trying to tell her to learn to stand before she even worries about "running" or "skipping."

But, keep on telling her to eschew grammar, syntax, word choice, spelling, and dialogue - the very basic building blocks of structure and character.

With advice like that, I have no doubt she'll one day become just as good a screenwriter as the people giving her such horribly misguided advice.

[35mm]

Optimus
You've GOT to be kidding me, 35mm.

Your rewrite is ANYTHING but tight and well-written.

35mm
It is much tighter than what it was before. I am sure there is no bias tone in your words though.

Optimus
It's crap. Not as bad as Caroyles, but crap nonetheless.

35mm
After this remark I can expect to hear some good reasons why my scene is crap! Right?

Optimus
As Joe said, if you rewrite someone's scene, you need to keep their vision and their characters true to original intent.

35mm
Wrong. I owe nothing to the writer.

Optimus
Not only did you totally change her characters into ones just as badly written, but your narrative is horrendously overwritten.

35mm
Once again I suppose you have some good reasons to back up your claim. I look forward to reading them.

Optimus
Again, you guys seem to be missing the point. I'm not emphasizing Caroyle's horrible grammar, spelling, syntax, and word usage mistakes just for the hell of it. I'm not avoiding telling her tips on how to improve her story and structure (as a few here have whined about).

35mm
My friend you need to do better to prove your point.

Optimus
She cannot and will not ever be able to grasp the nuance and mechanics of crafting a well-structured, character-driven scene if she doesn't have the ability to properly use the tools - of grammar, syntax, word choice, etc - which comprise a well-structured, character-driven scene.

She's trying to run when she can't even crawl. An idiot will tell her things like, "You're doing great. But, you should try to skip first." Or, in this case, tell her things like "you should work on structure and character. That's what's REALLY important."

35mm
Yes you've stated before that you disliked her work. There is no need to bring that up again.

Optimus
But, keep on telling her to eschew grammar, syntax, word choice, spelling, and dialogue - the very basic building blocks of structure and character.

With advice like that, I have no doubt she'll one day become just as good a screenwriter as the people giving her such horribly misguided advice

35mm
Well I have found nothing of real substance to your accusations. Simply stating that my work is crap doesn't quite cut it, sorry.

Optimus why are you here to begin with? This is not a debate forum. This is a screenwriting forum. Maybe I rubbed you the wrong way before and I apologise.

You can criticize my work if you want. I don't mind. However if you do criticize my work please back it up with some good supporting material.

Let's all get along and make this a friendly board.

Thanks.

[Optimus]

Okay, you're obviously blinded by your own delusions of knowledge.

And, it's "you're," and "biased." Not "your" and "bias."

"It is much tighter than what it was before. I am sure there is no bias tone in your words though."

Yes, I can I take a rusted out, broken down clunker of a car and scrape off some of the rust, but it's still gonna be a rusty, broken down clunker.

That's pretty much all you did.

And, you didn't make it "tighter." In fact, your overly descriptive, verbose narrative actually made it even less tight.

"Wrong. I owe the writer nothing."

Which is pretty much what you've given. And, you're the one who is wrong. If you're going to get on this board, pretending that you know what you're talking about, espousing advice that is not only misguided but detrimental to the writer's growth, like you have, then you DO "owe" it to the writer to no longer give that advice.

I, and several others here, have given Caroyles advice and tips on what she needs to do in order to actually improve. You may think my advice "mean" or "insensitive," but that's too bad. My advice was accurate, honest, and realistic. You, on the other hand, have come on here and basically said, "Oh, don't worry about all that important stuff. Just keep trying."

That's horrible advice. She NEEDS to worry about the important stuff.

"My friend you need to do better to prove your point."

If you don't see my point, then there is absolutely no hope for you.

"Optimus why are you here to begin with? This is not a debate forum. This is a screenwriting forum. Maybe I rubbed you the wrong way before and I apologise."

A forum, by its very nature, is for debate. I'm here to help people who need it and who are actually receptive to it. I'm NOT here for people who only want to hear that their sh!t doesn't stink. People like that don't actually want to improve and will forever live under the thumb of mediocrity.

Are you one of those people?

Or, are you a person with humility and an open enough mind to accept that you can't write Oscar-calibre material?

"Well I have found nothing of real substance to your accusations. Simply stating that my work is crap doesn't quite cut it, sorry."

See? That's the blind, delusional, "only see what you want to see" type of attitude to which I'm referring. I gave you reasons.

"After this remark I can expect to hear some good reasons why my scene is crap! Right?"

"Once again I suppose you have some good reasons to back up your claim. I look forward to reading them."

Well, since you asked...

"INT. DR MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY - ESTABLISHING"

You're not the director. You don't tell them what the "establishing" shot is. You say, "FADE IN:" and go to your slug, and leave it at that.

"The office is luxuries to look at."

That line makes no sense.

"The office is luxuries to look at. Paintings and awards checker the walls like trophies. The room is painted a forest green colour giving it a melancholy signature. In one end of the room next to the window is a black leather couch. On the other side of the room directly in front of the couch is a comfortable looking chair. A wooden desk is stationed beside the chair."

This is WAY too much description simply for a psychiatrist's office. The majority of people who read this will have a pretty good idea of what the inside of a psychiatrist's, or any other doctor's, office looks like.

You are eating up precious time that could be used to move the story forward to describe petty, inconsequential things like what freaking color the wall paint is and where the exact location of the furniture is in the office.

Nobody cares about the feng shui of the office. Give us two lines of description about the office, TOPS, and move on with your story. Your opening paragraph just murdered your pace.

INT. DR MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY

It's coldly academic. Paintings and awards pepper the walls.

GARY, (35), pale and jittery, lies on a BLACK LEATHER COUCH. His therapist, DR. MYSTIC, 40, poised, professional, sits behind him, jotting on a note pad.

Okay, that kinda sucks and isn't really the way I would've written it. But, it's lean, a hell of a lot tighter than anything you wrote, gives us the characters, and launches us into the story about 150 words before you do.

"Miranda is sitting in the comfortable looking chair with a notepad in her hands. Gary is sitting on the couch sideways. His eyes looking directly at his hands which are clasped together in his lap."


Although this paragraph is no longer necessary, let's dissect it anyway. First of all, you start off with the present progressive verb tense. Not *too* big of a deal, but the active verb tense is usually preferred (though, it is sometimes useful to intersperse the p.p. tense at times...but not ALL the time).


Should be, "Miranda sits..." NOT "Miranda is sitting..."

Same for Gary.

Compound adjectives are combined using a hyphen; "comfortable-looking," NOT "comfortable looking."

And, the line "His eyes looking directly at his hands which are clasped together in his lap" is horrible. If his hands are clasped, it's pretty much assumed that they're "together."

Wouldn't it be easier to say something like "Gary lies on the couch, hands on his chest, nervously twidling his thumbs."?

Make him DO something.

"Gary grabs his face as if to start crying."

:Wha:

Come on. You can do better than that...I hope.

And, the parenthetical "(spoken tense)?" I have no idea what that means. Wrylies aren't meant to confuse, which is what yours does. They're meant to enlighten/expand.

I'm not even touching your dialogue. I'd be here all day trying to fix that.

It's sufficed to say that you've turned Gary into an absolute freak with Intermittent Explosive Disorder (yes, that's a real condition) and were Dr. Mystic a real therapist, she'd recognize that based on his behavior and approach the situation in a totally different manner.

Also, her telling him to "Get out" is against APA ethical guidelines and she'd probably be disciplined if not disbarred and sued. Therefore, it's not realistic in the least little bit. Not only is Gary now a histrionic freak; so is Dr. Mystic.

Nice.

And, before you ask, YES, I'm studying to get my PhD in psychology, so I DO know what I'm talking about.

Those examples good enough for you?

In essence, 35mm, you took a bad scene and molded it into an example of another very bad scene.

And now that I've given definitive and undeniable proof to back up my claims, I'm sure you'll still come back and tell me I'm wrong.

[maestrowork]

It sounds like fun, rewriting someone else's work (no offense to you, Caroyles)... so here I go. (Disclaimer: I know it's crap already, so no need to tell me.)


INT. DR. MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY

Miranda sits rigidly in her chair with a notepad and a pen. Gary sits on the sofa, shifting comfortably.

MIRANDA
What's on your mind now?

Gary shifts again. The office turns really quiet.

MIRANDA
Is anything bothering you?

GARY
Uh huh, but I don't want to talk about it.

MIRANDA
That's okay. We have another 45 minutes.
It's your time.

GARY
What does that mean? It's my time.

MIRANDA
What do you think it means?

GARY
That I'm just some sort of patient. A number.
50 minutes.

MIRANDA
You feel angry.

GARY
No s***. Yeah, I feel angry.

MIRANDA
Why do you feel angry?

GARY
I just am.

MIRANDA
What made you angry? Or who?

GARY
No one.

The room turns quiet again.

GARY (cont'd)
I made me angry. Well, maybe not.
I don't know. (BEAT) Christ, this is
ridiculous. The whole thing is ridiculous.
I'm ridiculous. Every f***ing thing is
ridiculous. (CATCHING HIMSELF) Sorry.

MIRANDA
(SCRIBBING NOTES) Go on.

GARY
Yeah, like I'm being laughed at all the time.
Like... never mind, you'll laugh at me, too.

MIRANDA
Do you think I'll laugh at you?

GARY
Well, not you personally. Just everyone else.

MIRANDA
But I'm not everyone else.

GARY
Right, right. 50 minutes, huh? That's all.
50 minutes.

MIRANDA
You're still angry. That '50 minutes' comment
seems to have rattled you.

GARY
Yeah.

MIRANDA
And why is that?

The room turns quiet again.

GARY
It's because it sounds like...
just a transaction. Money changing
hands. And all you get is 50 minutes.
Once a week, lucky if you can do it
twice.

MIRANDA
We're not really talking about us, here,
are we?

GARY
No.

Gary shifts again in his chair. He looks up and stares straight at Miranda. She scribbles more notes.

GARY (cont'd)
I'm obsessed.

MIRANDA
About?

GARY
There's this woman... a girl really.
No, no, not what you're thinking.
I think I love her, but I can't.

Gary looks at Miranda again, shifts in his chair.

GARY (cont'd)
She's a... she works as a... she works.

MIRANDA
As a?

GARY
You know a woman who performs...
for men.

MIRANDA
You mean she's a prostitute.

Gary lets out a long sigh. He looks at Miranda again.

GARY
I don't like that word. It's so... so...

MIRANDA
Disrespectful? Unkind? Degrading?

GARY
Dirty.

MIRANDA
Is that how you feel, dirty?

GARY
No!

Miranda scribbles more notes.

GARY (cont'd)
It's just... she's been with a lot
of men. It's her job. And I don't
think--I didn't think it'd bother
me. I mean, I went to her, too.
She was just a whor--she was
nice to me. Then I started to
see her more often, and I started
to wonder what she was doing
with all the other guys when she
wasn't with me, and I felt... I don't
know. (BEAT) Jealous. I feel very
jealous.

MIRANDA
And you're angry.

GARY
Yes, and angry. But what the f***
is new? We know that already.

MIRANDA
(REFERS TO HER NOTES)
You said you can't love her.

GARY
Did I? Oh geez, did I really
say that? I didn't mean to.

MIRANDA
Why?

GARY
Why what? Why did I say
I can't love her and whatever
else I said?

MIRANDA
Many people fall in love with
women like her.

GARY
Do they? How do you know?
Oh, yeah, right, you're a shrink.
(PAUSE)
She doesn't want me.

MIRANDA
Did she tell you?

GARY
No. I didn't tell her anything.
We never talked about that.

MIRANDA
Why did you say she doesn't
want you?

GARY
My gut feeling.

MIRANDA
And you trust that feeling?

GARY
I don't know what I trust and
what I don't trust. Most of the
time I don't trust myself. I hate
that. I hate being such a frigging
nutcase. I didn't even know why
I went to her-- you know... to
begin with. I don't know. It's
just frigging nuts.

MIRANDA
So you think you love her, but you
also think she won't love you back.

GARY
Something like that.

MIRANDA
And how do you feel about that?

GARY
I just told you.

Miranda glances at her notes.

MIRANDA
Angry. Jealous. Nervous. Afraid.

GARY
And something else.

The room turns quiet again.

MIRANDA
Which is?

[Caroyles]

Thanks guys. I guess my thread has make the board rather lively huh.
I'm sorry if that comment has offended anyone. I didn't expect it anyway.

For those of you who take the time to improve my scene, a big thank you.
Well, at least for each revision, I get slightly more pleasant feedback. I think it is a good start.

Hmm...let's just hope the next revision, optimus will post a more pleasant feedback. :)

Btw, a very good exchange maestrowork. It seems like you understood the intent of my characters. Haha, I guess my work isn't as incomprehensible as I thought after all.

[35mm]

Optimus
Okay, you're obviously blinded by your own delusions of knowledge.

35mm
Ah, ad-homonym attacks the final resorce of the losing side.

Optimus
Yes, I can I take a rusted out, broken down clunker of a car and scrape off some of the rust, but it's still gonna be a rusty, broken down clunker.

35mm
All I did was use one example to establish a point. This scene has everything a scene needs in order to stand on two feet.

1) It establishes who the protagonist is- Gary
2) It establishes who the antogonist is- Gary and the pimp
3) It establishes what Gary desires- To be able to love the protstitute
4) The character goes through a transformation - From quite reflective individual to assertive vigilanti
5) We already know what is going to happen next based on Garys' hatred for the pimp.
6) There is plenty of symbolism in the dialogue - The therapist represents the pimp and Gary repressents the prostitute.
7) Gary has a self realization moment when he discovers his place in the world.

All that information with just one scene.

Optimus
I, and several others here, have given Caroyles advice and tips on what she needs to do in order to actually improve. You may think my advice "mean" or "insensitive," but that's too bad. My advice was accurate, honest, and realistic. You, on the other hand, have come on here and basically said, "Oh, don't worry about all that important stuff. Just keep trying."

35mm
Telling some one they can't spell is pointing out the obvious. Does the word duh mean anything to you?

Optimus
See? That's the blind, delusional, "only see what you want to see" type of attitude to which I'm referring. I gave you reasons.

35mm
Nope you gave me hot air that's all.

Optimus
Which is pretty much what you've given. And, you're the one who is wrong. If you're going to get on this board, pretending that you know what you're talking about, espousing advice that is not only misguided but detrimental to the writer's growth, like you have, then you DO "owe" it to the writer to no longer give that advice.

35mm
Nope your still wrong. Your wrong because there are no rules in screenwriting only guidelines. If I revised a screenplay whether it is my own or someone elses idea I write according to my own creative juices. You cannot quantify inspiration. You do not tell a painter to stroke his brush this way or that way. Once the idea is passed on to someone else the script leaves your hands period.

Optimus
A forum, by its very nature, is for debate. I'm here to help people who need it and who are actually receptive to it. I'm NOT here for people who only want to hear that their sh!t doesn't stink. People like that don't actually want to improve and will forever live under the thumb of mediocrity.

Are you one of those people?

35mm
'laughs' why don't you test me and find out. You might be astonished to learn how much I know about writing and film making. No matter what my level is I always believe I can be better.

Optimus

"INT. DR MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY - ESTABLISHING"

You're not the director. You don't tell them what the "establishing" shot is. You say, "FADE IN:" and go to your slug, and leave it at that.
That's pretty much all you did.

35mm
Wrong again on both accounts. I am a director and yes you should always write in an establishing shot when ever you introduce a new location. The key word is screenplay not script! Screenplays are blueprints of what the film should be.

Fade in is only used once at the very beginning of the screenplay. This scene is not the beginning of Caroylse screenplay but some where near the beginning.

Optmus
"The office is luxuries to look at."
That line makes no sense.

35mm
Yeah it does. Is the sentence fragmented? Yes but who cares? It tells me the director exactly what I need to know.

Office is luxuries! Not rocket science bud.

Optimus
INT. DR MYSTIC'S OFFICE - DAY

It's coldly academic. Paintings and awards pepper the walls.

GARY, (35), pale and jittery, lies on a BLACK LEATHER COUCH. His therapist, DR. MYSTIC, 40, poised, professional, sits behind him, jotting on a note pad.

Okay, that kinda sucks and isn't really the way I would've written it. But, it's lean, a hell of a lot tighter than anything you wrote, gives us the characters, and launches us into the story about 150 words before you do.

35mm
Yes that is much tighter and to the point than what I put. I will admit that. However your cut and pass of images does nothing to help me formulate a clear picture of what I am suppose to see. All that your telling me is your lazy and you can't be bothered to give the reader a concise discription of the room.

Also don't ever give the characters exact age unless it is crucial to the story. Does it really matter that Gary is 35 or 36? No. Also, there is no need to introduce gary in this scene because he has already been introduce before.

Optimus
And, the parenthetical "(spoken tense)?" I have no idea what that means. Wrylies aren't meant to confuse, which is what yours does. They're meant to enlighten/expand.

35mm
Nah ah. Screenplay 101 states that anything in parenthesis that is not a direct action of the character must then express the tone of voice of the character. Gee I thought you knew that.

Spoken meaning to speak and tense to speak with tension. Hence Gary is speaking his words with tension. (Spoken-tension) is a better way to descirbe it.

Optimus
This is WAY too much description simply for a psychiatrist's office. The majority of people who read this will have a pretty good idea of what the inside of a psychiatrist's, or any other doctor's, office looks like.

You are eating up precious time that could be used to move the story forward to describe petty, inconsequential things like what freaking color the wall paint is and where the exact location of the furniture is in the office.

Nobody cares about the feng shui of the office. Give us two lines of description about the office, TOPS, and move on with your story. Your opening paragraph just murdered your pace.

35mm
Please, this not exposition my good man. The camera would see this entire shot in a matter of a few seconds.

Now you know why I put the word establishing next to the master slug line.

Optimus

It's sufficed to say that you've turned Gary into an absolute freak with Intermittent Explosive Disorder (yes, that's a real condition) and were Dr. Mystic a real therapist, she'd recognize that based on his behavior and approach the situation in a totally different manner.

35mm
Yeah I meant to make Gary snap, so what's your point? It's my scene and in it I pull the strings. Doctor Mystic could have been more professional but maybe on that particular day she snapped too. Isn't she human?

Optimus
Also, her telling him to "Get out" is against APA ethical guidelines and she'd probably be disciplined if not disbarred and sued. Therefore, it's not realistic in the least little bit. Not only is Gary now a histrionic freak; so is Dr. Mystic.

35mm
Good call. Doctor Mystic gets' sued by Gary for being a freak. Justice is done in the protagonist favor. The end.

Have you seen Taxi driver or American Beauty? Great movies where the protagonist dare I say is it a total wack job. Life isn't a safe place where everything is what it seems.

Optimus
And, before you ask, YES, I'm studying to get my PhD in psychology, so I DO know what I'm talking about.


Those examples good enough for you?

In essence, 35mm, you took a bad scene and molded it into an example of another very bad scene.

And now that I've given definitive and undeniable proof to back up my claims, I'm sure you'll still come back and tell me I'm wrong.

35mm
Oh yes the I am soon to be a PhD in psychology bit is always a good card to pull when ever you give up lame brain arguments like the ones you did.

I really don't give a rats' a** what degree you're getting so please keep it to yourself!

Now I am going to ask you to stick your neck out and write a great screenplay scene.

That is the only proof I will consider.

[Optimus]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Dude, you're hopeless.

So, whatever.

What are you a director of, wedding videos?

I'm done with you. You prove with every post that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Joe Calabrese]

HOLY COW!

I go to sleep for a few hours and I awake to find the "War and Peace" thread.

Come on guys. My scrolling finger can't take the strain.

Seriously. Can we keep our comments short, constructive and to the point?
If we are going to start doing a line by line, poster to poster defence argument, then we might as well change the name of this thread to "Endlessly Bicker this Dialog" vs. "Rate this Dialog."

Also, did you know there is a forum on these boards that's specific for posting works in progress and critiquing them? It's called "Share Your Work" and is Moderated by our own sagely Maestrowork.

You might want to try it out. Might be interesting to get "other than screenwriter"s perspectives on character voices, tone, grammar and other things universal to writing well. Just leave a quick post here telling those interested to pop over there to read and comment.

I'm going for some coffee and check my ebay sales.

Later.

[maestrowork]

Btw, a very good exchange maestrowork. It seems like you understood the intent of my characters. Haha, I guess my work isn't as incomprehensible as I thought after all.

No, it's not totally incomprehensible, but it did take me a few reads to understand your intention. Also, your own exchange did drag and go nowhere. You see, your exchange should either move the plot along or show characterization. IMHO, one of the things that didn't work for you is the rapid "Yes" "No" exchange. And there's a lot. They don't tell us anything (not even character development). My take on it is there're not a lot of information to be exchanged here -- basically the man is in love with a hooker, and he thinks he can't love her. And there's something else.. that's about it.

What we have here is more characterization than plot movement. In the context of the shrink's office, what we're interested in is Gary's psyche, and perhaps his relationship with Miranda (which I think is even more vital in the scene). You don't have to spell everything out, but you need to hint at backstories and characters. Then let the actors figure it out.

The scene I wrote is actually too long as well. Can be trimmed and tightened. I question do you need a long scene to reveal only a few things. But it can work, if it's done well. Go out and watch "Closer" with Julia Roberts and Jude Law. Most scenes are long exchanges between two characters, but they reveal so much about the characters, their relationship with each other, and information. There's also plot movement, at least at the end of the scene.

Watch that one scene in Closer between Julia's and Clive Owen's characters. If you can, get hold of the script, too. It's dynamite. It's raw. It's layered. And it goes somewhere: the scene goes from Clive's confession to Julia's guilt to Clive's explosive rage to Julia's resentment to their breaking up. All done through dialogue.

Or watch Sideways with Paul Giamatti. The scene with him and Virginia Madsen about wine... nothing but two people sitting there, talking to each other. But that scene is incredible.

These are the kind of scripts that win the Oscars.