WWII Vets come out to criticize Bush admin's torture techniques

InfinityGoddess

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492.html?hpid=topnews

For six decades, they held their silence.


The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.

When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.


Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.


"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.


Blunt criticism of modern enemy interrogations was a common refrain at the ceremonies held beside the Potomac River near Alexandria. Across the river, President Bush defended his administration's methods of detaining and questioning terrorism suspects during an Oval Office appearance.



See, guys? We don't have to torture anybody. All we have to do is play games or take them out for a nice dinner. :p
 

Deleted member 42

Here's the thing, though.

People under torture will say anything, anything at all, that they think might stop the torture, they'll do their damnedest to figure out what the torturer wants to know, so they can tell and stop the torment.

This is not new; the torture manuals for medieval and renaissance inquisitions are very clear on this, and it's one of the reasons the church stopped physical torture as a standard tool for inquisitions.

It Doesn't Work.

And it's wrong.
 

Hillary

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Clearly, torture works. It's how come we've won.... Uh... Erm...

Never mind.
 

InfinityGoddess

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Here's the thing, though.

People under torture will say anything, anything at all, that they think might stop the torture, they'll do their damnedest to figure out what the torturer wants to know, so they can tell and stop the torment.

Which is probably why these guys are coming out now and saying what does work; which is basically making friends with your POWs and getting them to trust you enough to spill out enough goods on their fellows in the field.

Sounds like a sound technique to use, imo. Pity our President doesn't see it that way.
 
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It Doesn't Work.

It depends on your definition of "work."

It works a lot of the time.( "a lot" also a word for debate)

Is "work" = 56% of the time?
Is "work" = 5% of the time?

Everyone has their breaking point.

Some tell useful information.

Some don't.

Thank you.
 
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Joe270

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We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture

So these octogenarians are privy to the secrets their current counterparts are getting?

Sounds like a breach of security to me. Either that, or they don't know what is going on right now in their former line of work.

I'll be guessing it's the latter.
 

InfinityGoddess

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So these octogenarians are privy to the secrets their current counterparts are getting?

Sounds like a breach of security to me. Either that, or they don't know what is going on right now in their former line of work.

I'll be guessing it's the latter.

Quite a few people are well aware, Joe. In fact, I'd say it's common knowledge for many who are up-to-speed. Shrub can deny all he wants, but his lies aren't going over so well with a whole lot of people any more.
 

JJ Cooper

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A quote from the same article in the OP.

Nearly 4,000 prisoners of war, most of them German scientists and submariners, were brought in for questioning for days, even weeks, before their presence was reported to the Red Cross, a process that did not comply with the Geneva Conventions. Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich.

This was a strategic facility that was more than likely used for detailed interrogations, gaining information of a strategic and/or technical intelligence value. It would make sense that the interrogators applied a 'softer' approach due to the type of prisoners they received and undoubted length of time it took get the prisoners there. I would say that the 'shock of capture' would have been lost by the time these prisoners got back to this facility.

It's likely that these prisoners would have already received tactical questioning and initial interrogations at or near the point of capture with limited access to ping pong tables or steakhouses.

Torture is not an option if you want to gain valuable intelligence for the reasons stated above.

JJ
 

Joe270

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Quite a few people are well aware, Joe. In fact, I'd say it's common knowledge for many who are up-to-speed. Shrub can deny all he wants, but his lies aren't going over so well with a whole lot of people any more.

There is not one word in your link on the quality of intel they are gaining with their methods.

Clearly, the octogenarians are engaging in hearsay.
 

JJ Cooper

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Which is probably why these guys are coming out now and saying what does work; which is basically making friends with your POWs and getting them to trust you enough to spill out enough goods on their fellows in the field.

Sounds like a sound technique to use, imo. Pity our President doesn't see it that way.

At a secondary interrogation facility the information the interrogators are seeking is generally not time critical.

It is a far different story on the front line where the information is time critical and there is not much time to be making friends with the enemy. Doesn't mean that there aren't any other methods and techniques as effective within the bounds of the Geneva Conventions.

JJ
 

Joe270

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Don't get me wrong, JJ, I'm not condoning torture.

I'm merely challenging the truthfulness of the original link. Unless there's a huge security breach, there is no way this dude's statement can be taken as fact.

It is simple hearsay. He has no clue as to the quality of intel the interrogators are gleaning these days.

Which makes the whole statement bunk.
 

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Why not torture? Have the enemy spend a weekend listening to Baba Walters. We don't need to inflict physical abuse. What we really need to do is have a special unit of pissed off ex-wives. Or give Rosie a shot.
 

SpookyWriter

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I think Rosie agrees with me.

rosie.jpg
 

JJ Cooper

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Why not torture? Have the enemy spend a weekend listening to Baba Walters. We don't need to inflict physical abuse. What we really need to do is have a special unit of pissed off ex-wives. Or give Rosie a shot.

Your not far from the truth with the music thing Spooky. The continuos playing of an annoying song or 'white noise' has been used on prisoners while they are in 'holding', waiting for another interrogation session. You'd be surprised how thankful they can be that the music has stopped.

JJ
 

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I don't think I'd hold out long if they played M. Jackson music.

One person's torture is another person's dance music.
 

JJ Cooper

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Don't get me wrong, JJ, I'm not condoning torture.

I'm merely challenging the truthfulness of the original link. Unless there's a huge security breach, there is no way this dude's statement can be taken as fact.

It is simple hearsay. He has no clue as to the quality of intel the interrogators are gleaning these days.

Which makes the whole statement bunk.

Yeah, they shouldn't be comparing what they did in WWII in this facility to current interrogation methods and techniques. I suppose it's what sells papers in the end.

JJ
 

Joe270

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Anything to bash Bush and cast a pall on the US military. Sad.

Too bad 'The Caine Mutiny' isn't required reading in our schools. Then more folks would understand the results of a campaign of backbiting undertones on leadership.
 

blacbird

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Anything to bash Bush and cast a pall on the US military. Sad.

Too bad 'The Caine Mutiny' isn't required reading in our schools. Then more folks would understand the results of a campaign of backbiting undertones on leadership.

The conflation of the interests of our troops with the personal interests and agenda of the nation's leader is a scary thing. Think Adolf Hitler. What a better outcome we might have had if the German people had done enough "backbiting undertones" on the madman who had taken over leadership of their country.

Good news is, we only have 15 months left. Bad news is, we still have 15 months left.

caw
 
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Good news is, we only have 15 months left. Bad news is, we still have 15 months left.

Nothing will change when the next President takes over. Even a dem.

Not the Patriot Act, not "torture," not nothing.

Maybe stem cell research and some higher taxes.

But when it comes to the war on terror there ain't no politician with the guts to roll the dice on being attacked after they remove patriot act and interogation techniques.

It will be business as usual.

And the silence from the hypocritical left will be deafening.

"Hey, democrat, Hillary isn't changing any of the interogation techniques."

" :Shrug:"
 

SpookyWriter

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Your not far from the truth with the music thing Spooky. The continuos playing of an annoying song or 'white noise' has been used on prisoners while they are in 'holding', waiting for another interrogation session. You'd be surprised how thankful they can be that the music has stopped.

JJ
In Arizona with call that Catholic services.
 

wordmonkey

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Too bad 'The Caine Mutiny' isn't required reading in our schools. Then more folks would understand the results of a campaign of backbiting undertones on leadership.

I agree.

A major character is a guy who basically gets himself tucked up nicely in the reserves during war and thus avoids combat.

The Commander of the Caine is patently not up to the job and is surrounded by others equally inept.

Buck passing aplenty.

And a court scene where a character is destroyed merely to make someone else look moderately capable.

Lessons we can all learn from. This is what happens when you put cowards and incompitents in positions of power. Always ends in tears...

...and an Oscar nomination for Humphrey Bogart.
 

MattW

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I think that a case can be made for the right suspect in the right time-sensitive situation to undergo any variety of torture. If hundreds of lives are in immediate peril and the suspect has vital information, I would hold my nose, but do what needs to be done.

Shy of that highly improbable scenario, physical torture is unnecessary and counterproductive. It validates the bad image the US has, and only lends strength to our enemies recruiting slogans. Not to mention the questionable value of any intel gained.
 

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Torture doesn't take place on a level that involves the President. It happens but the President for obvious reasons is kept out of the loop. No bill or any other bullshit law is going to change this.
 

robeiae

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It Doesn't Work.
Well, no. That's incorrect. Whether or not torture can work depends on the kind of information being requested:

"What is the combination to this safe?"--can work
"Name all of your co-conspirators."--can't work
"Give me the launch codes."--can work
"What is your org's next step?"--can't work

And it's wrong.
Yes, it is.