Divine Appointments

[Plot Device]

Discuss!

[kdnxdr]

When you say, "discuss", are you looking for personal experiences? Or, where we stand theologically? Or, what we believe a divine appointment is suppose to be?

[RumpleTumbler]

When leaving the Blue Mosque in Istanbul you are asked to make a donation.

I donated an Injil which resulted in my being surrounded by 4-5 policeman and taken off to a station they had setup beside the mosque. Interestingly enough a guy latched onto me just before this that spoke English/Turkish who I had never seen before. He came with me to the police station and translated for the hour or so I was there. After they had confiscated all the tapes/videos/injils that I had I asked for them back so I could hand them out and several of the policemen took them. I went over scripture with several of them. The Imam of the Blue Mosque then showed up and I did the same with him. I loaded him up with stuff including a Jesus video in the Turkish language which he said he was going to watch right after the call to prayer. I was let go right after he left and heard voices for the next 2 months (a freebie thrown in for the spiritual warfare folks).

I thought it was a divine appointment at the time. I'm not sure now.

Just for fun here's a picture somebody took right after or before all this mess. I can't remember which.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9568/nealdenisebluemosqueag9.jpg

[kdnxdr]

RT, I'm curious as to what makes you doubtful.

[RumpleTumbler]

RT, I'm curious as to what makes you doubtful.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1594299&postcount=11

[III]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1594299&postcount=11

For what it's worth, you do seem to have chilled out quite a bit over the past few weeks, RT. Sorry if that sounds like a backhanded compliment, but it's true. You have so much to add to this forum and it's really great to see you doing it without exploding. :tongue

As cliche as it sounds, I think everyone we interact with is a divine appointment. But I do have a good story I'll share if I get time later today.

[Unique]

I don't know what 'divine appointment' means really.

But this I can identify with:
I was let go right after he left and heard voices for the next 2 months (a freebie thrown in for the spiritual warfare folks).

Spiritual warfare is no joke. Prayer warriors are your best defense.
Would you PM me about the voices?
>''<

[RumpleTumbler]

Spiritual warfare is no joke. Prayer warriors are your best defense.

Would you PM me about the voices?
>''<

Sure. I don't mind talking about it publicly either. Let me know what it is you want to know.

[Unique]

well - is this the right thread for it? that's all.

I guess I wanted to know what they said.
Was it more than one voice?
Voice for good or bad?
Did they fade away or become less frequent slowly?
Or did they just stop one day?
Did it sound different than when you 'talk to yourself' in your head?
Can you describe in what way?

Just doing some comparison study. yeah. that's it. I promised son he could use the computer so feel free to take your time. I am very interested in hearing what you have to say.

[P.H.Delarran]

From Apologeticsindex.org:
Divine Appointment: A seemingly chance-meeting said to have been orchestrated by God, usually with the purpose of sharing the Gospel.

[P.H.Delarran]

I think the Holy spirit can use our testimony as witness in many ways, often not what we'd expect.
I've always worried that I fail at spreading the Gospel. I'm not the one to go knocking on doors or even approach strangers. But there have been times through the years when my simple testimony has worked in the lives of other Christians..kind of unexpectedly.
I had a very good friend that survived a deep personal struggle report back to me that something I always said during my own trials came back to her during hers-and that was that God never gives us more than we can handle. A rugged paraphrase, and without the clarifier of the original passage-but non the less, it was the glimmer of hope that pushed her to persevere. And this was something she witnessed me living, not something that I pulled out as an intentional witness.
There's been many other examples.
It's the Spirit that takes a humble every day gal like myself and spreads God's Word and Hope.

[JoNightshade]

"Divine appointments," whatever... I hate how we try to pigeonhole God's hand in the world into these little categories. God works all the time, everywhere, and not always in the same way. Doesn't matter what we call it.

Anyway, I have a couple of obvious examples of this. I go into the office once a week (I work from home) in the afternoon, no specific schedule. A few weeks ago I was leaving the office and I had parked alongside a park where homeless people often hang out. On the corner of the park there was a woman just weeping and sobbing her heart out. I actually walked down the street on the other side and jaywalked to my car to avoid passing her directly, but suddenly I knew I couldn't just get into my car and drive away from that. So I turned around and went back. What followed was me talking this homeless woman down from her suicidal despair, making phone calls to various organizations in the area, buying her some clothes (hers had been stolen), etc. I didn't exactly "share the gospel" with her or whatever, but I told her my own experience of knowing that when I hit rock bottom, God was the only one I could look to and depend on. She actually agreed with me and at that moment another formerly-homeless friend of hers came by and stopped a while. He ended up revealing that before he got into drugs and screwed up his life, he was in seminary. He basically backed me up. So I definitely think God orchestrated both of us being there just when she needed someone most.

[JoNightshade]

PS Apparently God likes to use me with potential suicides... one time in college I had to talk my roommate's little brother down from killing himself, over the phone... I had almost forgotten that. :)

[Pat~]

I have had what I would term divine appointments, though I'd have to also agree with III that God pretty much orchestrates my life, even when I'm not aware of it. But it's pretty neat when He lets me in on the event.

One of the more recent ones that holds a lot of meaning for me concerns a mission trip I took to Uganda, Africa right after 9/11. It was a trip that I sensed strongly I was 'divinely appointed' to take. As it turns out, I was asked to give a talk (via translator) in the cathedral in Jinja as to what the Lord had been teaching me during a particularly rough time in my life the previous 2 years. A lot of it had to do with 'legalism' versus Christianity, and the negative effect legalism had on my life and my walk with God. According to the bishop, one of the biggest struggles in his diocese was with legalistic, rule-driven attitudes of those professing to be of the Christian faith...a bit like the self-righteousness of the Pharisees. Anyway, the talk was well-received, but it wasn't until 2006, when the bishop's wife visited me again here in the States, that I knew how much of a divine appointment that had been.

In Ugandan culture, women are pretty much the spiritual heads of their homes. The men, unfortunately, are often off drinking or whatever with their friends, leaving the women the responsibility for raising the children, working the fields, and bringing in some income to keep the household running. It's a polygamus society, so there is no security for the women in their role as wife/mother--many times they find themselves cast aside when a new wife comes on the scene. The bishop's wife, Florence, is head of something called The Women's Union there--it teaches women skills for business, as well as teaching and nurturing them spiritually with Bible study groups, etc. It provides support for the women in that country, esp. for those who are deserted by their husbands. Well, Florence told me this year that it is becoming too big a job for her to handle and that she is handing over the reins. She told me that in the audience that day I gave my testimony was another woman by the name of Florence, who mulled over what I'd said for a YEAR--and then finally came to her asking her about 'that American woman' and wanting to know how to become a Christian. Since then, she has grown strong in the faith--so very strong, in fact, that Florence is putting her in charge of the Women's Union overseeing the spiritual growth of the women in Uganda. I'm so in awe of how God worked to orchestrate my going there with this young woman's life mission. I think there are probably many times when we have divine appointments that we're not even aware of (I wasn't aware of this one for several years), but it sure is neat when God lets us in on how He's been working.

[RumpleTumbler]

well - is this the right thread for it? that's all.

Plot, you want me to pm unique or answer here?

[Unique]

RT -
Roger can split it off to its own thread if Plot doesn't come back any time soon.

Okay now that I know what divine appointment is ...

Yes. Of course. I just called 'em 'miracles' or divine intervention, or entertaining angels unaware.

I believe I have been the angel and also I KNOW there have been angels there for me. Real ones? Maybe. Sometimes just humans wearing angels' wings.

I can't think of a specific right off; if it comes to me I'll share it later.

I know there exists in everyone power which is more than we can even imagine. It's a gift to us from Jehovah God and the Great Holy Spirit. What we do with it - that is the question.

For many years I've run away from that power, too aware of all the bad things that can be done with it. [And the Bible warns us about it, too] Some people cultivate that power (see the other threads in the Spiritual forum) I won't say they're wrong - it's not my place to say that.

But I'm very aware that it is easy to misuse that power and one way that it can be misused - it is misused - is by thinking and doing as if it came from ourselves. It does not.

Right now I'm in a place where I am trying to integrate all the things I've learned about this power (and learn more about it) and use it for good and for His Glory.

It still scares me a little (okay. a lot)(some) but ... I feel it's time. It's time to take the bushel basket off the lampstand so to speak. Maybe I've grown into it now having gotten older (and hopefully wiser) Or - maybe it's just that I'm needed somewhere, somehow, or by someone.

My prayer is that I will stay humble and open to His intent for me. I'd be obliged for your prayers in this matter if any feel so led.
>''<

[Roger J Carlson]

"Divine appointments," whatever... I hate how we try to pigeonhole God's hand in the world into these little categories. God works all the time, everywhere, and not always in the same way. Doesn't matter what we call it. I agree. God works all the time. Those things we identify as Divine Appointments are just those few times when we actually get to see God work.

I'm always in awe at a God who can weave every single action we take into his divine Plan. Because that's what I think he does. I don't believe he "orchestrates" our lives like we're robots. But he uses the actions we take of our own free will and dynamically works them into his Plan. Some action I take or some word that I give might affect several people I know. But then the effects of that ripple out among all the people that they know, further and further out. Something like the Butterfly Effect of Chaos Theory except it isn't chaotic, it's in God's control.

Who was more important to the Kingdom, Billy Graham or the person who led Billy Graham to Christ? Or perhaps the person who led that person?

The thing is, we may NEVER know what actions of ours will affect dozens, hundreds, or even millions of people. Perhaps Jo's story about helping a homeless person encourages someone else here to do the same. And perhaps that homeless person becomes the next Billy Graham. Jo would never know, but the effect would be there.

That's why I'm so concerned that this forum in particular shows Christ's love above all else. Because we just never know...

[HorrorWriter]

Awesome, Roger! I so agree. Couldn't have said it better! :D Don't let the avatar fool ya! LOL...

[Unique]

Because it fits in this thread and it has come up for me personally lately, I'm sharing this email I got while I was away doing this morning (and waiting for RT's answer)

God's 26 Guards

Have you ever felt the urge to pray for someone and then just put it on a list and said, "I'll pray for them later?" Or has anyone ever called you and said, "I need you to pray for me, I have this need?"

Read the following story that was sent to me and may it change the way that you may think about prayer and also The way you pray.

A missionary on furlough told this true story while visiting his home church in Michigan.

"While serving at a small field hospital in Africa, every two weeks I traveled by bicycle through the jungle to a nearby city for supplies. This was a journey of two days and required camping overnight at the halfway point.

On one of these journeys, I arrived in the city where I planned to collect money from a bank, purchase medicine and supplies and then begin my two-day journey back to the field hospital. Upon arrival in the city I observed two men fighting, one of whom had been seriously injured. I treated him for his injuries and at the same time talked to him about the Lord. I then traveled two days, camping overnight, and arrived home without incident.... Two weeks later I repeated my journey.

Upon arriving in the city I was approached by the young man I had treated. He told me that he had known I carried money and medicines. He said, 'Some friends and I followed you into the jungle, knowing you would camp overnight. We planned to kill you and take your money and drugs. But just as we were about to move into your camp, we saw that you were surrounded by 26 armed guards.'
At this, I laughed and said that I was certainly all alone in that jungle campsite.

The young man pressed the point, however, and said, 'No, sir, I was not the only person to see the guards, my friends also saw them, and we all counted them. It was because of those guards that we were afraid and left you alone.'

At this point in the sermon, one of the men in the congregation jumped to his feet and interrupted the missionary and asked if he could tell him the exact day this happened. The missionary told the congregation the date and the man who interrupted told him this story: "On the night of your incident in Africa, it was morning here and I was preparing to go play golf. I was about to putt when I felt the urge to pray for you. In fact, the urging of the Lord was so strong, I called men in this church to meet with me here in the sanctuary to pray for you. Would all of those men who met with me on that day stand up?"

The men who had met together to pray that day stood up. The missionary wasn't concerned with who they were, he was too busy counting how many men he saw. There were 26!

This story is an incredible example of how the Spirit of the Lord moves in behalf of those who love Him. If you ever hear such prodding, go along with it. Who says God does not move on the earth today?

You may have seen this in your email before because at the end it asks that you share the story with others. That doesn't make it SPAM. It means the story is being shared.

We are called to encourage one another and to love one another so ...
I hope it is an encouragement to you as it was for me. I'm on the right path again. (Finally!) Thanks, fellow writers. I appreciate each and every one of you.

[Plot Device]

To Everyone:

I left the entire OP as open-ended as possible. I say let 'er roll. And if Roger wants to do any housekeeping later, he can.

[RumpleTumbler]

I guess I wanted to know what they said.

The majority of it was sexual in nature using both words and the ever popular heavy breathing type stuff. Occasionally the odd request. At times there was also a physical element, touching, the sitting down of "something" on the side of the bed, just like a person but nothing there, other detectable movement on a bed or other surface.

Yes I realize these are symptoms of schizophrenia but I don't have it. I did get myself checked out to be sure by 3 different doctors during this time after I matched the symptoms up.

Was it more than one voice?

Yes, there were three. One did most the the talking and appeared to be in charge if that makes any sense.

Voice for good or bad?

I don't understand the question but I'd say bad if you mean good or evil.

Did they fade away or become less frequent slowly?

I don't recall it being slowly...although there did seem to be an intelligence about it. I believe the objective was to nix my then wife and I from going back for 2 years which we had decided to do while there. When that objective was achieved it stopped altogether but it had tapered off dramatically in the days prior to that.

Did it sound different than when you 'talk to yourself' in your head?

No it wasn't like that. It sounded like someone speaking but you could tell that no one else could hear it. It wasn't as loud as someone speaking in the room. At times it was almost difficult to hear. Odd I know. That was one of the things I ragged it about the most is its being unable to speak louder than a whisper. Dialogue was possible as well both without speaking aloud and with speaking aloud. There were a few other odd events associated with all this as well but you get the drift.

If you have any more questions please ask. I'm not a private person.

[Unique]

"...Yes I realize these are symptoms of schizophrenia.."

You know, it's funny but schizophrenia is never my first thought when I hear about people hearing voices. It may occur to me later .. but it's never the first thing I think of. Hmmm...

Were things of a sexual nature a weak point for you at that time? Was that an area of vulnerability?

It is my understanding that demons will probe/attack at our weak points but also they do make mistakes.

At the risk of pissing some off - if they had been smarter they would have chosen to stay on the other team. Ahem.

So did the attack influence you in deciding not to return? Did you eventually return? (sorry if that's already been addressed)

What did your wife think of it? Did she believe you or did she think you were losing it?

[RumpleTumbler]

Were things of a sexual nature a weak point for you at that time? Was that an area of vulnerability?

Yes it was. I was never unfaithful with my wife but I wasn't loved by her either so I had lots of unfulfilled needs both emotional and physical. The physical because I wanted nothing to do with her sexually because of the way that she treated me.


At the risk of pissing some off - if they had been smarter they would have chosen to stay on the other team. Ahem.

You lost me there.

So did the attack influence you in deciding not to return? Did you eventually return? (sorry if that's already been addressed)

It caused a separation between my wife and I. I kept it to myself as she was a major "freak out" kind of person, however, doing that turned out to be a mistake. It's funny...we went to counseling and the counselor knew what happened before I told him. The priority became keeping the family together then and not field work. Yes, I went back again for a few weeks a year or so later and that time was beaten outside a mosque. It's pretty apparent I'm not wanted there.


What did your wife think of it? Did she believe you or did she think you were losing it?

Yeah she believed me. She just thought it odd/freaky.

[III]

RE: Divine Appointments

This thread reminds me of conversations I've had with a few of the college students at church. Simply put, I think God gives us great autonomy with our lives, like a loving father. He’s given us gifts and skills and a big world to explore as we will. But I also think there are a handful of times when He specifically calls us to do something extraordinary, and it’s when we respond to that call in faith that he does the truly extraordinary things (such as clear divine appointments). I can look back over my life and see a few stone altars marking times when God did something truly extraordinary that changed me and those around me forever.

I like the example of Daniel in the OT. A majority of his life was just being faithful to God in prayer and purity, but there were a handful of times when God called him to do something truly extraordinary.

The only time I’ve ever felt like I heard “The Voice of God” was when I was 24. It was a time when I was on the biggest spiritual upswing and really immersed myself in studying Scripture. I was walking down a hallway at work and a fully-formed thought popped into my head. I don’t know how to describe it, because I definitely know how my own thoughts “feel” and this did not come from within. The thought was “I have people who love the Word as you do. Go read it to them.” Immediately I knew God was talking about people in a Nursing Home who loved the Bible, but couldn’t read it.

The next day I called nursing homes and found one where I could volunteer. I’m sure they thought I was a kook. I stopped working overtime at work and started visiting the nursing home three times a week and found some residents who wanted me to sit and read to them and just talk to them. Through one of them, I came into contact with an 80-year-old minister who became my mentor and my hero and dramatically changed my life. Of course many things about those nursing home visits and relationships changed my life over the next few years.

There have been a few other times when I’ve felt strongly called to do something, but I’ve never felt that “fully formed thought” before or since.

RE: Spiritual Warfare Stuff

Since RT brought it up, I’ve had similar experiences, although not as clear. When I was in my mid-20’s I would frequently have vivid nightmares, almost on a nightly basis, where I’d be having a normal dream, then the dream would shift and I’d be sleeping my bed and a demon would be in the room. In my dream, I’d always confront the demon with the name of Jesus and invariably the next thing I knew, my wife would be shaking me awake because I was moaning and trying to yell. Believe me when I say, these were distinctly different than any other nightmares I’ve ever had, and even after I woke up I could still feel an evil presence in the room. I’d turn on the TV and just pray until I eventually fell back asleep.

Interestingly enough, when we moved out of that house a few years later, those “night visits” stopped almost entirely. I still have a few of these a year, but they’re far less frequent, although no less real.

What I’ve come to believe is that Hollywood has really built up demons in our minds. We think of them as these powerful, tangible, ugly things that throw furniture and talk like in The Exorcist. In real life, I think they’re mostly just bullies. They try to frighten us. They play on our temptations. They do anything they can to just distract us from God. But compared to Jesus, they’re little more than pesky mosquitoes. They just live to oppress us when we’re weak.

I will add that this is an American perspective. There are places where the demons have a VERY strong presence and are much more open about it. But in America, there’s no need.

In the end, I think God is more interested in a genuine relationship based on faith than on sensationalism; in us giving up our own little self-centered interests for the far-greater things He has to offer us.

Boy, I bet the lurkers are just loving this thread. :)

[callalily61]

Boy, I bet the lurkers are just loving this thread. :)

I usually lurk on threads like this because I don't think I have the knowledge or authority to give advice. (Reason #117 why the convent was such a bad career choice for me, LOL.)

I've had some mildly freaky spiritual warfare mements, but more than offset--so much more, so incredibly more--by moments with Jesus. Like just at the edge of my peripheral vision, and a Voice. Like, wow.

I"ve had one or two opportunities to share that. I just let it happen and let God take care of it.

[JoNightshade]

I had a weird experience once that could be considered either divine appointment or spiritual warfare or both, I guess. Now, if you know me in person you know that I'm very shy, and I am terrified of public speaking. This was especially true in college.

So one day I'm walking through the university union (outdoors) and there's one of those nutcase people who walk around with big signs saying everyone's going to hell, etc. etc. This dude is standing right in the middle of this outdoor amphitheatre area everyone passes through, and he's talking about how everyone is on the road to hell. That wasn't the issue. The issue was that he was then expounding on this rant by delivering speeches about some things that were definitely NOT biblical. He was using the bible but he was twisting everything so it fit his nutty view. Well, he had a big crowd listening.

I listened to him for a while and I just felt "this has to stop," very strongly. There were some other christians there I knew so I went over to them and said to the guys, "Someone needs to speak out against this man." (Who was, incidentally, saying that women shouldn't speak, hence me appealing to the men.) The guys all looked at each other and someone suggested we all pray. So we did. And I'm like, "Well, he's still speaking." And none of the men wanted to get up. So eventually I started to wander off, thinking, 'Whatever.'

Then I passed this dude who was hanging out at the edge of the circle. He was all punctured with studs and paperclips and whatever and was very scary looking. Something just GRABBED me at that moment and I walked up to him (okay I NEVER do this) and said, "What do you think of this guy?" And he said something to the effect, "Christians are full of shit." I told him, well, I'm a christian, and this is NOT what I believe.

Then I stood up, and walked up to the crazy preacher dude, and I just stood there next to him, in front of everyone, until he suddenly noticed me. At that point I found myself publicly denouncing this man as a false prophet, citing specific ways in which he was wrong, and calling all of the Christians in the audience to stand up and WALK AWAY. The man tried to talk over me but somehow my little voice just projected over him, and everyone heard me.

I remember, for the rest of that day, I was literally shaking so bad I couldn't write. This was about 4 years ago now, and I still get all shaky thinking about it.

[III]

I usually lurk on threads like this because I don't think I have the knowledge or authority to give advice. (Reason #117 why the convent was such a bad career choice for me, LOL.)

I've had some mildly freaky spiritual warfare mements, but more than offset--so much more, so incredibly more--by moments with Jesus. Like just at the edge of my peripheral vision, and a Voice. Like, wow.

I"ve had one or two opportunities to share that. I just let it happen and let God take care of it.

I'm with you there, Lily. I could list dozens and dozens of times when I've felt God's Spirit so clearly. For me, it's usually acompanied by the chills on my forearms. The best times have been when I'm just playing guitar and worshiping by myself - no distractions, nobody else around - just me and Jesus talking and singing.

[joyce]

It was funny to hear someone else state they have heard voices and thought it was like schizophrenia. As far back as I could remember when I was a child (many, many moons ago) I heard voices all of the time, especially at quiet times. I never understood what they were saying, and when I asked my mom about them, she just pushed it off as some childhood thing. I had one experience in particular when I was around 6 that I will never forget. My mother told me it was just a dream. To this day I know it was not. I learned to keep my mouth shut about these things because even at a young age I thought someone would think I was crazy.

When I was 16 and still plagued with these paranormal things happening, I went to my church seeking answers. The preacher told me what I was hearing and feeling was nothing connected to God, only the devil. He basically made me feel like something was wrong with me and I was evil. Needless to say, I left feeling more confused than enlightened. I tried to cut off this connection and not pay attention to it, especially if I was connecting to some demon.

It took me 20 years later to finally start to understand what was/had been happening, and none of it was "evil". I've seen,felt and experienced so many paranormal things in my life that at last I've learned to embrace them as a gift. It was also comforting to know I'm not the only one out there that has had such experiences. I do regret the preacher making me feel guilty as if I'd done something wrong, because it lead to years of me searching, feeling different, and questioning my faith. My daughter has also been blessed with this gift and from the beginning I've told her to embrace it.....it is a divine gift.

Presently, I'm writing about my lifetime of these experiences and confusion. I don't know if I'll ever do anything with it, but writing it all down makes me feel better.

[HorrorWriter]

Great forum and great people. I have to come here more often! :D Even though I write horror, most horror (including Stephen King) involves the fight between good and evil, whether on the spiritual level or in the physical. I mostly include religious themes in mine, like the Christian author, Frank Peretti.

[oscuridad]

RE: Divine Appointments
Boy, I bet the lurkers are just loving this thread. :)

yep - fascinating - lurking 'cause I cannot add anything of value to it. I find accounts of such experiences genuinely very interesting.

[kdnxdr]

Warfare is a big part of what Christianity is about. First and foremost, the scriptures teach that the flesh wars against the spirit. The saying that "you are your own worst enemy" is so true. I know many people who have many voices "inside their head". I listen to the same music at nap time in my preschool class every day. When I don't even realize it, that music is playing continually in my head. With tv being what it is, just the obvious commercials we see over and over are enough to brainwash a person. And, who knows what's happening on the subliminal level.

Once I was watching my little niece, who was about five. I was doing something and she was in the floor playing with her babydoll. When I started paying attention to the little chant she kept repeating over and over to herself, I realized it was the word suicide. In shock, I asked her where she heard that word. She said it was on her friend's record. I forget which band she said it was.

Then there's all the voices of all the people you come in contact with in a day and all the signs and all the things you read, watch and listen. Those things don't disappear, even if you can't consciously "remember" them.

As for demonic spirits or satanic attacks, that's a whole other set of voices.

And then, there's the still small voice of the Holy Spirit as God gently, lovingly works in our life.

The word teaches that discernment is critical in the walk of a christian. The word calls us to "get discernment". I like to think of it as when you listen to the radio and you get a whole bunch of channels fighting over one spot and it's heck to pick just one of them up. As christians, it's imperative that we learn to discern the spirits/voices and the indicators that help us to identify and focus on the voice of God.

[Plot Device]

I have been avoiding getting terribly personal on these boards. But tonight I will make a departure from that.

I have had more "divine appointments" than I could possibly count. (Chance meetings which were incalculably beyond mere chance.)

As for spiritual warfare, I had have bad dreams that made me wake up screaming, and I knew they were more than just dreams. When you spend a life time having dreams, and sometimes having bad dreams, you pretty much know what a dream is (good and bad alike). But these were MORE than dreams. There seemed to be an outside influence. It's hard to explain, but I always sensed in a really creeped-out way when a dream was in fact something "different" and only recently have I concluded that it was a kind of spiritual interference.

Before I became aware of spiritual matters, I used to have the rare but well-remembered dreams about flying at night, and those were always cool because I literally had the sensation of flying in those dreams, and I would look down and see the trees passing below. And the stars up above were amazing (it was ALWAYS at night, never in the day). But I am now of the opinion that even those were NOT good dreams. I am tentaively open to the idea that such dreams might have been instances of what is known in occult circles as "astral projection." But it wasn't anything I initiated, it just hapened to me. And I have to say I definitely enjoyed it and I was always sad when it was over. But I'm now convinced that it wasn't a good thing at all.

Of the many bad dreams I have had, I can relate very much to what III said: I'd be having a normal dream, but then it would change somehow. It got interupted, or interfered with. And most of the time, the "storyline" of the dream would either come to a sudden halt, or would get replaced by something that just didn't feel like a dream. And in recent years I have been doing lots of reflecting on my dream experiences and I realized there were two other corolaries that I had been overlooking all this time:

1) These dreams almost always "hurt" as in I would wake up feeling physical pain. Normal dreams don't "hurt," even normal dreams where violent thing happens. Such as, I have had what I shall call "normal" dreams where I have been in an auto accident, or gotten hit by a tidal wave, and those dreams didn't hurt. And I even had a dream where I fell down on the sidewalk and broke the teeth out of my mouth and had blood gushing from my mouth onto the sidewalk, and then I woke up from that dream within moments after I broke my "dream teeth" and yet I had no physical sensation of pain from that at all. But the "other" dreams, these "suspect" dreams, would cause me to wake up and there would be the lingering sensation of pain from having had something violent done to me during the dream. Only sometimes would such violence be sexual in nature.

2) These dreams almost always had an "entity" in them. The entity would almost never be the same. Sometimes a monster. Sometimes an alien. A traditional-looking demon. A creature of calm inteligence. A creature of brute violence. A half-man/half-animal-of-your-choice-a-la-Doctor-Moreau. A realy big creature, or even a really small one. But regardless of the shape/form, there was always a non-human character of some kind in the dream, and the source of the violence --and the resultig pain-- was almost always this other character.




Now .... I figured I was just having the ocassional bad dream. And I never really made the gee-these-dreams-hurt connection. Nor did I make the why-is-there-always-a-monster connection either. And most impotrantly: I never made the connection that "painful dreams" had monsters AND that "monster dreams" had pain. It has only been the past two or three years that the corolary clicked. Up until this revelation, I just dismissed it all as just dreams, even though my instincts were telling me it was more than that.



Here's what changed my mind ....






I had ONE dream that was (how shall I say?) "confirmed" by two other people in the house.



Here's what happened.



I was doing foriegn missionary work in Europe. I was stayig withtwo other women that summer and we shared a three bedroom house together. One night I was asleep upstairs in my bed in a room that I shared with one of the other women. The third woman had her own bedroom (she had the master bedroom).

I was having a dream, and then it stopped. And then I mistakenly assumed that I was awake (I was not, I was still asleep, but normal sleep had been interrupted) and I also mistakenly assumed that the lights were on in the bedroom (they were not, they were off). And I was lying there on the bed, looking off toward the opposite wall, (actually, my eyes were closed, but I told myself I was looking at the wall) and I was fully aware that I was in that bed and that I was in that room. But I mistakenly thought that SOMEONE was standing right beside my bed. I further mistakenly thought that that "someone" was my roommate (but that she was outside of my line of vision because I was looking off toward the wall) and that she was staring at me. Why she was staring at me, I had no clue. But she (or whoever it was) was STARING at me with a very calm and very still intensity. And then, she PUNCHED me! --Right on the side of my head! And I started screaming!

This caused the other two women in the house to come running. I was lying there on the bed screaming, and was mistakenly believing that I was also bleeding from the side of my head. And it turns out my roommate was downstairs in the sitting room all this time, reading her Bible and writing in her diary. And so the other woman (in the master bedroom right next door) was able to get to me first. She came into the room in a total fright, flicked on the lights, and shook me awake as I was still screaming. As soon as I was awake I realized I had just screamed in my sleep and I was thoroughly embarassed. My roommate came running in a moment later from havig run madly up the stairs, and when everyone was calm again, I explained that I had had a bad dream about someone in the room who spent a long long while standing beside the bed, staring at me, before finally deciding to punch me. And I even said to them that my head still hurt from where this "person" punched me. And as I explained all this, I also kept reaching up to my ear expecting to find blood.

Well .... it turns out the two of them also experiecned paranormal phenomena only moments before my scream.

First, the woman in the master bedroom said she woke up just a minute or two before my scream because she was dead certain there was somebody in her room. She was lying on her bed in the darkness, absoluetly terrified that either a prowler or a rapist was there. And she also says she sensed one of the corners of mattress at the foot of the bed mildly do a small "up-spring," which means there was someone sitting on that corner of the bed, and then he suddenly stood up, and she sensed the unmistakable up-springing of the corner. She says she lay there absoluetly terrified, trying to pretend she was still asleep, hoping this potential prowler/rapist would maybe leave, so she was hoping she would hear the bedroom door open to indicate they were leaving. And then I screamed. So she was already very very charged up with fight-or-flight adrenoline when I screamed, so she absoluetly jumped off the bed and ran to my room.


As for the woman downstairs, my roommate for the summer, she was writing in her diary when I screamed. And when she came running into my room, and when I explained in utter embarassment to both women that I had had a bad dream about someone attacking me, and when the other woman told us about her fears of a prowler/rapist ... well, my roommate said to us "You two are not going to believe what I was writing in my diary just now!" And she ran out of the bedroom, down stairs, got her diary, ran back up with it, and showed it to us. She had been writing normal stuff. Events-of-the-day kind of stuff. But then her diary entry shifted in tone and content. The following is my paraphrase of what I recall she wrote:

"I feel so awful. Like there's an evil presense in the house. It's absolutely oppressive! I don't know what else to do but pray!"

And then her diary entry ended because that's when I screamed.


So, I have had a lifetime of these dreams, and more than a few occassions of waking up screaming. And I have always dismissed them as dreams. But THIS was the one time where the possibility of the supernatual was confirmed by other people.

[kdnxdr]

A very excellent book on spiritual warfare is Shaking the Heavens by Ana Mendez published by Renew Books/Gospel Light Publishing. It's a bit pricey but the price is high on this used book because it is hard to find. Amazon has it listed.

[ishtar'sgate]

Interesting thread. I'm 'directionally challenged'. I get all turned around when I drive in big cities and have a terrible time finding my way out. One afternoon I thought I had my route all planned out then had to detour past some road work and became completely lost. I had no idea where I was or how I was going to get home. I was poring over a city map at a traffic light when a man in a truck next to me asked me if I was lost. I told him I was, he asked me where I wanted to go then told me to follow him. Although I thought it was very kind of him I figured I'd lose him in traffic pretty quickly but when he drove past me to get in front of my car I realized he had those big flashing arrows on the back of his truck. He blinked them left or right when he wanted me to change lanes. No one else seemed to notice him as they weren't confused by the flashing arrows. When we got to the road I recognized as leading me home, he pulled over to the side of the road. I waved at him as I went by and when I looked in my rearview mirror there was no one there. I'm convinced he was an angel watching out for me.
Linnea

[JoNightshade]

I'm finding all of these stories about spiritual warfare very interesting. I just wanted to add what my pastor said this past Sunday-- you encounter resistance like this when you're doing the right thing. When you're where God wants you to be, doing his work. If you're not affecting anyone else, then Satan leaves you alone. But when you're effective for the kingdom, he gets scared and tries to scare YOU off. So when you're enduring trials, take heart! You're doing the right thing!

Only once have I had one of these 'dream' experiences. I usually have very fanciful weird dreams that don't mean squat. But every now and then I'll have one of those "real" dreams, where when you wake up you just assume that what you dreamt was real. Usually they are about someone I love dying. So one time I dreamt my mother died and when I got up and saw her sitting at the breakfast table I almost started crying. Aaaaanyway, those don't seem to mean anything either. But a few years back, I was living and going to college in London for a quarter. One night I had this horrific "real" dream in which a man was attacking me. I grabbed a kitchen knife and started slicing at him violently, cutting off fingers and stabbing him until he stopped. When I woke up I was filled with adrenaline. Either that day or the next I got an email from my good friend back home who told me that a man had broken into her house and tried to rape her. She fought him off before penetration and he ran out of the house... leaving behind a kitchen knife. I don't necessarily think that dream was spiritual in nature or meant to do anything, but it certainly was freaky. :)

[callalily61]

you encounter resistance like this when you're doing the right thing. When you're where God wants you to be, doing his work. If you're not affecting anyone else, then Satan leaves you alone. But when you're effective for the kingdom, he gets scared and tries to scare YOU off. So when you're enduring trials, take heart! You're doing the right thing!

This so floored me when a pastor first said that. Like, I'm important enough to try and thwart? Made me feel pretty darn humble and want to fall at Jesus' feet. Immediately.

[HorrorWriter]

Plot,
Wow. What an incredible story. You just gave me an idea to add to an idea I had already! Did you guys stay in that house or did you move out? Even though it was just for the summer, I know that I could not have stayed there any longer.

As for my Divine appointments, I've had several. I'll share soon...:D

[Unique]

you encounter resistance like this when you're doing the right thing.When you're where God wants you to be, doing his work. If you're not affecting anyone else, then Satan leaves you alone. But when you're effective for the kingdom, he gets scared and tries to scare YOU off.

I agree completely.

From my journal 9/28:

I believe this age is drawing to a close. A spiritual battle is being fought. People are being pulled apart - spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically.

Today I felt as if I were being assaulted - coming apart under attack. Why?
What's different about today? What am I doing differently? (person's name), (person's name), studying. But maybe it's not just me.

Witnessing to others, praying diligently for others. Maybe that's what's drawing the attack. I don't know.

But I can't stop. How could I do that? I don't want to be attacked so I'll stop doing these things?

Ugh. That can't be right.

'The price of our vitatily is the sum of all our fears.' - David Whyte


So I have to agree with Jo. When we're just coasting along - which is not necessarily a bad thing - nothing happens. But when we work for the Lord - watch out.

That's why I called my prayer warriors and asked them to pray for me. That's why I asked you to pray for me.

[III]

Plot - when I read your post I was covered in chills the whole time. You described my dreams EXACTLY. I just hadn't gone into as much detail as you did. I've only talked to one other person who had these types of recurring "night visits" - a buddy of mine who became a pastor, and our stories were identical to what you described.

[Plot Device]

Plot,
Wow. What an incredible story. You just gave me an idea to add to an idea I had already! Did you guys stay in that house or did you move out? Even though it was just for the summer, I know that I could not have stayed there any longer.

As for my Divine appointments, I've had several. I'll share soon...:D

We were in the house for the entire summer. Nothing ever happened again in the house. Although a few days later I fell down a set of stairs out at an elmentary school where I was doing volunteer work, and so I had to go to the hospital for a sprained ankle. This injury was the reason I was forbidden by the senior missionary there in that city to go away with a traveling Christian drama troupe for the remainder of the summer.

I don't believe the house itself was a problem. I have formulated a very loose hypothesis over the years concerning what happened to me that night and why it happened. It's not a notion I wil insist upon, just one that I loosely entertain. I'll share that hypothesis in a nother post or two.

[RumpleTumbler]

Plot Device increases the fun word list to 6.

1. Presto
2. Indeed
3. Voila
4. Ta Daa!
5. Blunderers
6. Hypothesis

[Plot Device]

Plot - when I read your post I was covered in chills the whole time. You described my dreams EXACTLY. I just hadn't gone into as much detail as you did. I've only talked to one other person who had these types of recurring "night visits" - a buddy of mine who became a pastor, and our stories were identical to what you described.

Well, III, I won't claim to know exactly what the Kingdom of Darkness is up to, or how they operate. But I have been researching it for several years now and I came across an extreme minority position about two years ago which might or might not be enlightening. I do not agree 100% with this extreme minority position that I found. And when I researched the personal backgrounds of the main proponents of this position, they all struck me as genuinely flakey individuals. So I do not put a LOT of stock into their theory. But regardless of my skepticism, I will share the homegrown pet theory that I have since adopted as a variation on their base-theory.












DISCLAIMER: The following is sheer speculation, and not something I will insist upon. It's just a idea.










It's possible that the Kingdon of Darkness operates in a state of ocassional confusion and random bouts of disorganization. That is not to say it operates in total chaos. Jesus himself said that a kingdom divided against itsef cannot stand, and so if Satan's kingdom is not one that works together, it couldn't last for very long. But the agents of Satan are most likely LACKING what is called by theologians (as well as philosophers and even scientists) "perfect knowledge" (aka "prefect information"). The idea of perfect knowledge has been around for many centuries, and in non-religious terms perfect knowledge is used to describe a set of information on a given subject, and that said set of information is somehow complete and abslute and flawless--and sometimes the information is fed in a continuous stream. Most scientists agree that perfect knowledge is an impossibility, and they refer to it only in theoretical terms. For the most part, only economists discuss the theoretcial possibility of perfect knowledge in terms of competition in the marketplace, and video-gamers also discuss perfect knowledge as far as information about a game opponent.

In the Christian outlook, perfect knowledge is another way of refering to the omniscience of God. So the Holy Angels most likely operate here on the Earth armed with small portions of perfect knowledge that have been handed to them by God on a need-to-know basis. But Satan and his crew do not have access at all to the omniscience of God and therefore lack perfect knowledge.

Without perfect knowledge, Satan and his team operate in the dark, and so they have to make-do with their own inteligence-gathering enterprises. And it is this ongoing gathering of inteligence that perhaps takes up the vast majority of Satan's resources here on Earth. Sort of like in George Orwell's 1984, Satan's minions are indeed watching every last one of us, making observations, keeping records, and stockpiling a massive compendium of all this data. But it is VERY VERY time consuming and labor-intensive for them to do this. But they must out of necesity, regardless of how enormous the effort is.



Now ... most of us are familiar with the traditional notion that perhaps every last one of us has been assigned a guardian angel for the duration of our lives. And it has also been suggested by many a poet and theologian alike down through the centuries that it may even be possible that each of us has been likewise assigned (not by God but by Satan) a "guardian demon" if you will (a la "The Screwtape Letters"). But this entire notion raises the question of sheer numbers.

-- How many humans are there on the Earth? (Last count, over 6 billion.)

-- How many Holy Angels are there here upon the Earth? (Nobody really knows.)

-- How many Evil Angels are there here upon the Earth? (Again, nobody knows.)

It might be possible that there are six billion-plus Holy Angels here upon the Earth, in keeping with the "guardian angel for each of us" theory. Meanwhile, it might also be possible that there are six billion-plus evil angels here upon the Earth as well, in keeping with "The Screwtape Letters" concept. But .... what if Satan just can't spare the manpower? What if his resources are not THAT vast? What if the actual numerical head-count of the evil angels is NOT in the billions? I would say that Satan and hs crew have their work cut out for them then.


So .... here's the theory.




Satan and his team need to keep tabs on everybody. But having one fallen angel per person who must specifically remain at the elbow of that person for the duration of that person's life is NOT cost-effective. So instead, one evil angel will be assigned an entire roster of many many humans, and that fallen angel constantly has to make the rounds, circulating back and forth between them all, updating records accordingly. The time frame it takes for him to make one complete circuit is anywhere from three to six months. So it's possible for someone to be off Satan's radar for several months at a time.

I believe that I was completely off of Satan's radar when my missionary assignment came up. And so Satan's minion had no knowledge that I was going to go. It's a long long complicated story of how and why I even went on this missionary trip, but just trust me when I say that I was sitting in my college summer dorm room on May 3rd, convinced I was going to spend the summer working at the catering place. And then I suddenly found myself on a Boeing 747 to Europe on June 20th, heading off to do ten weeks of missionary work.

And then by early August, SOMEBODY from the nether regions came by again, looking for me in my summer dormitory room back at my East Coast college campus, and I was nowhere to be found.

"Where is she? Where'd she go?" (I was off in Europe.) "Who said she could go to Europe?"

And I honestly believe that he/she/it was downright angry with me when he eventually found me in Europe. Angry enough to punch me.





Now I could be wrong about all this. And I also leave open the possibility that this entire theory of mine is exactly the sort of crap nonsense that Satan would be pleased to learn is being speculated upon. "Oh good! She's naively convinced we never even knew she left, and that when we did find her we were mad at her! Perfect!" I do not put that kind of deliberately orchestrated disinformation past the capabilities of Satan's team. I'm only sharing all of this because I continue to find ONE very solid similarity between my own bad dream experiences and the bad dream experiences of others: these awful dreams seem to happen to people about once or twice a year during the course of their lifetime. And when I stumbled upon this one rather flakey minority position that I mentioned at the start of this post, it seemed like a somewhat plausible possiblity to speculate that the Kingdom of Darkness CAN'T afford a one-to-one ratio of humans and dark agents, so they have to visit each of us only sometimes, and only when they can. And that's just once or twice a year. And as long as our individual lives are each stumbling along in acceptable degrees of dysfunctionalism, they'll move on. But if they see we're making progress in any capacity, that's when they will alot resources to try and take us down a few pegs.

So I only SLIGHTLY believe al of this. I only tentatively hypothesize that--based upon this entire loose conept-- I might have been visited by some big bad beastie some time around the first week of May of that summer. I recall a very specific event happening that I won't get into here. But it did indeed hapen during the first week of May, right after Final Exams, right when I moved into the summer dorm. I had an "event" happen during the first week of May that I believe marked my latest visit. And then when it was deemed that my life was nice and lousy, a big fat check mark got put next to my name, and then whats-his-face left and moved on to the next person on his list. And it was around May 10 that I got the phone call from some missionary who said he wanted me to come to Europe that summer to work in his church-- and could I possibly find a way to raise about three thousand dollars in the next three weeks to pay for my plane ticket and my summer living expenses? --and could I also get myself a passport in that time period? And by a miracle of God I did indeed raise that money-a veritable avalanche of money poured in from friends and family over the next ten days, and I even got my passport in just one week flat (all the other missionaries were astounded that my passport only took a week--said they'd never heard of such a thing). And then I evidently got ANOTHER visit from whoever/whatever in early August while I was in Europe. And it was NOT a pleasant experience--for me or my two missionary roommates.







Anyway, this is the general idea. Not provable. Not even terribly Biblical --just loose speculation. And the one connective thread of "I get these dreams once or twice a year" is my only incentive to put any stock into it.

[III]

I'd tack onto that a loose idea of a Maslow's hierarchy of needs for demons:

1) Bind people to actually worship them to that person's detriment. I think this is why God put enmity between us and them as part of the original curse - for our own good. I think this type of "success" for them is pretty rare and like icing on the cake.
2) Nurture division and animosity between Christians. A full time job at which they are exceptionally well-practiced and talented.
3) Encourage us to sin when we're naturally tempted (as James says).
4) Snatch away God's truth when it is planted in our hearts (as in the Parable of the seed).
5) When all else fails, frighten or actually harm us.

In each case, I think demons can only use what's already there, be it resentment between Christians or temptation within ourselves or a resistance to God's voice. This hierarchy is just my own thinking, though - I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

The more I study the enemy, the more amazed I am at just how much MORE powerful God is and how much power He has given us. We tend to think of Jesus vs. Satan like a Rocky movie, where Jesus will somehow muster his strength at the end and throw one big punch to barely win. Scripture tells us that Jesus already has ALL powers and authorities subject to him and all we have to do is resist the Devil and he will flee from us. If we're truly full of God's love and seeking to be used and transformed by Him, the enemy is more of a skilled nuisance than anything else.

[Roger J Carlson]

Anyway, this is the general idea. Not provable. Not even terribly Biblical --just loose speculation. And the one connective thread of "I get these dreams once or twice a year" is my only incentive to put any stock into it.I don't mean this in a negative way, but it sounds like a good premise for a novel.

[callalily61]

Amen, III.

[Roger J Carlson]

I'd tack onto that a loose idea of a Maslow's hierarchy of needs for demons:

1) Bind people to actually worship them to that person's detriment. I think this is why God put enmity between us and them as part of the original curse - for our own good. I think this type of "success" for them is pretty rare and like icing on the cake.
2) Nurture division and animosity between Christians. A full time job at which they are exceptionally well-practiced and talented.
3) Encourage us to sin when we're naturally tempted (as James says).
4) Snatch away God's truth when it is planted in our hearts (as in the Parable of the seed).
5) When all else fails, frighten or actually harm us.

6) Encourage us to believe something close to the truth, but still shy of the mark. For instance: you'll go to Heaven if on balance, you've done more good than bad.

[joyce]

Here goes a question that might get my head chopped off, but here it goes......How would my experiences fit in with God and what the Bible states as fact.
1. I heard voices (never understood what the mass was saying) until I turned them off at around 20.

2. I've been visited by spirits of my dead mother and father several times, and I was not asleep. I have also seen/felt other spirits my whole life.

3. I have experienced what would be called Astral Projection quite a few times, though it took me years to understand what was really happening. I'm not quite sure how the Bible looks at this.

4. I have experienced paranormal things my whole life, feeling evil, good spirits, etc.

5. And last, why on earth would a man of the church tell me I was filled with evil and none of these happening, or gifts as I would label them, was from God.

I believe in a God, but I must admit when I went to the church for answers I left feeling more like an outcast, or child of the devil. I'm just wondering how someone else might explain them.

[RumpleTumbler]

Plot, I don't think astral projection is evil. I'm not sure I believe in it at all. It would be really cool I think if one could do it. Why do you think it's bad?

[callalily61]

joyce: :Hug2:

And I'm going to leave explanations to Roger or III or someone else here who's qualified. I'm just the comforter. :)

[joyce]

joyce: :Hug2:

And I'm going to leave explanations to Roger or III or someone else here who's qualified. I'm just the comforter. :)

Thanks I need a comforter, in fact my bed needs a new one too. I know I'm not the "Bible quoter person", but I'm just interested if someone who is can explain my experiences without telling me I'm a child of the devil.

[Plot Device]

I don't mean this in a negative way, but it sounds like a good premise for a novel.


On one level I take that as a compliment. :)




On another I have to let you know that an allegedly non-fiction book has already been done conerning a parallel concept (parallel to Christianity, but not actually Christian). That non-fiction work has been turned into a movie. It also speaks of regularly scheduled visitations happening maybe once or twice a year.






http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ce/Communion_book_cover.jpg/367px-Communion_book_cover.jpg




The "extreme minority position" I was referring to in the other post is known as Christian Ufology--they believe that aliens are in fact demons and/or fallen angels, and that the whole current day UFO thing is a conveneint smoke screen for Satan's Earthly acitivites. I don't agree with most of what Christian Ufology has to say, but a couple of their underlying ideas struck a chord with me.

The event that happened in early May of the year I went to Europe--the event that I believe was my latest "visit" or even "checkup" (to borrow the "patient" idea that CS Lewis used in "The Screwpate Letters"), was that I woke up with a nose bleed. I have suffered spontaneous nose bleeds repeatedly throghout my life, and it's always in my right nostril, and it always happens in the middle of the night.

And these nose bleeds only ever happen to me with a frequency that is merely .......... once or twice a year.

I recall that I was so mad that I was yet again suffering another stupid nose bleed that I spent well over an hour in the bathroom that morning trying to get it to stop. I took out a magnifying glass and looked right up my nose, and there was a slit inside my nose--a very clean slice like from a knife-- and that was where I was bleeding from. I figured I must have sliced my own nostril with my fingernail as I slept (even though my fingernails are not at all sharp). And I was so annoyed, and so determined to make my life time of nosebleeds come to an end, that when I finally got it to stop bleeding I covered that slit with Neosporin and packed my nostril with gauze and declared very firmly to myself I was going to make that stupid slice heal and it would never bleed again. This was a long ordeal I put myself through that morning and I continued the ritual with Neosporin and gauze for several days every morning for a week. I have never forgotten the fact that I did al of that.

And then I got the call from the missionary.




Anyway, I was reading up on Christian Ufology two years ago, and I was actually very dubious about the whole thing. I confess I was more than a little disrespectful, I was flatout rolling my eyes at these guys. (They really do come off as total flakes. Just Google a few of their web sites and you'll see how painfuly loony they sound. The worst thing is they have an underlying racial motif to their whole theory.) But then one of the claims that these Christian Ufologists made was that people with a lifetime of visitation history will likewise have a history of either ear infections or nosebleeds. When I read that one line about the nosebleeds, I just about fell out of my chair. So then I Googled the words "ear infections UFO" and got thousands of pages. Then "nosebleeds UFO" and again, thousands of pages. And once again the phrase "once or twice a year" was the recurring theme of people who experienced all of this.




::ETA::

Now once again, I will NOT insist any of this is conclusive. I'm just saying that I have made a corolary --and corloaries are never proof, just an indication of a possibility.

[Roger J Carlson]

Here goes a question that might get my head chopped off, but here it goes......How would my experiences fit in with God and what the Bible states as fact.
1. I heard voices (never understood what the mass was saying) until I turned them off at around 20.

2. I've been visited by spirits of my dead mother and father several times, and I was not asleep. I have also seen/felt other spirits my whole life.

3. I have experienced what would be called Astral Projection quite a few times, though it took me years to understand what was really happening. I'm not quite sure how the Bible looks at this.

4. I have experienced paranormal things my whole life, feeling evil, good spirits, etc.

5. And last, why on earth would a man of the church tell me I was filled with evil and none of these happening, or gifts as I would label them, was from God.

I believe in a God, but I must admit when I went to the church for answers I left feeling more like an outcast, or child of the devil. I'm just wondering how someone else might explain them.

Thanks I need a comforter, in fact my bed needs a new one too. I know I'm not the "Bible quoter person", but I'm just interested if someone who is can explain my experiences without telling me I'm a child of the devil.Well, I hesitate to propose this because I'm not really qualified to "explain" anything.

However, one explanation may have nothing to do with spirituality at all. Some mental disorders (like bipolar disorder) can manifest themselves with both auditory and visual hallucinations. That might account for 1 & 3. And some children outgrow bipolar disorder, so that might explain why the voices stopped at 20. #4 may be nothing more than the mood swings associated with bipolar disorder.

As for #2, there is a stage of sleep that is not quite asleep and not quite awake in which it is common to feel like you've been visited by people, angels, devils, aliens, and the like. Often this is characterized by the inability to move or speak, but not always. But because you are partially awake, you never have that feeling of waking up and you believe you've actually been awake the whole time.

It might not be more comforting to think about a mental disorder, but it's just a chemical imbalance and not a moral judgment about your character. It might be worth it to talk to a Christian psychiatrist. They can give you both a medical and spiritual perspective.

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's experience. I do believe there is spiritual warfare that goes on all around us. But I firmly believe that Satan uses such natural occurances and disorders to make us feel like he's powerful, when he's really not. He's just the Deceiver.

[joyce]

Well, I hesitate to propose this because I'm not really qualified to "explain" anything.

However, one explanation may have nothing to do with spirituality at all. Some mental disorders (like bipolar disorder) can manifest themselves with both auditory and visual hallucinations. That might account for 1 & 3. And some children outgrow bipolar disorder, so that might explain why the voices stopped at 20. #4 may be nothing more than the mood swings associated with bipolar disorder.

As for #2, there is a stage of sleep that is not quite asleep and not quite awake in which it is common to feel like you've been visited by people, angels, devils, aliens, and the like. Often this is characterized by the inability to move or speak, but not always. But because you are partially awake, you never have that feeling of waking up and you believe you've actually been awake the whole time.

It might not be more comforting to think about a mental disorder, but it's just a chemical imbalance and not a moral judgment about your character. It might be worth it to talk to a Christian psychiatrist. They can give you both a medical and spiritual perspective.

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's experience. I do believe there is spiritual warfare that goes on all around us. But I firmly believe that Satan uses such natural occurances and disorders to make us feel like he's powerful, when he's really not. He's just the Deceiver.

You made me look up the symptoms of Bipolar and I don't have any of them nor never did. I've had too many experiences to list on this thread, but rest assured I do know they were real and not figments of my imagination. Is it not possible for someone to be gifted with abilities that perhaps others are not? Is it possible I have tuned into a spiritual channel that others perhaps have turned off? I'm not so sure about the Christian psychiatrist thing, since the last time I tried that I was told what I was experiencing was evil. Somehow I knew there would not be a simple answer to this experience.

[Roger J Carlson]

Anyway, I was reading up on Christian Ufology two years ago, and I was actually very dubious about the whole thing. I confess I was more than a little disrespectful, I was flatout rolling my eyes at these guys. (They really do come off as total flakes. Just Google a few of their web sites and you'll see how painfuly loony they sound. The worst thing is they have an underlying racial motif to their whole theory.) But then one of the claims that these Christian Ufologists made was that people with a lifetime of visitation history will likewise have a history of either ear infections or nosebleeds. When I read that one line about the nosebleeds, I just about fell out of my chair. So then I Googled the words "ear infections UFO" and got thousands of pages. Then "nosebleeds UFO" and again, thousands of pages. And once again the phrase "once or twice a year" was the recurring theme of people who experienced all of this.This dove-tails into my response to Joyce, but I think these claims are the same Sleep Paralysis that I referred to before. Here's an interesting article about it: http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/abduction.html

[RumpleTumbler]

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's experience. I do believe there is spiritual warfare that goes on all around us. But I firmly believe that Satan uses such natural occurances and disorders to make us feel like he's powerful, when he's really not. He's just the Deceiver.

Whatever it was that involved itself with me was in my opinion weak. It got the job done though.

[Roger J Carlson]

You made me look up the symptoms of Bipolar and I don't have any of them nor never did. I've had too many experiences to list on this thread, but rest assured I do know they were real and not figments of my imagination. Is it not possible for someone to be gifted with abilities that perhaps others are not? Is it possible I have tuned into a spiritual channel that others perhaps have turned off? I'm not so sure about the Christian psychiatrist thing, since the last time I tried that I was told what I was experiencing was evil. Somehow I knew there would not be a simple answer to this experience.Well, I'm not a health professional, and I shouldn't have dabbled in arm-chair psychoanalysis. However, you wondered if there was an explanation that didn't make you into a child of the devil, and I believe that is one.

If the "man of the church" who told you that you were full of evil was an actual psychiatrist, he should lose his licence. Psychiatrists are licenced MD's and should never say anything like that.

[joyce]

Well, I'm not a health professional, and I shouldn't have dabbled in arm-chair psychoanalysis. However, you wondered if there was an explanation that didn't make you into a child of the devil, and I believe that is one.

If the "man of the church" who told you that you were full of evil was an actual psychiatrist, he should lose his licence. Psychiatrists are licenced MD's and should never say anything like that.

Believe me I did not take offense to the bipolar thing. The "man of the church" was the preacher, not a licensed psychiatrist. I figured since he was the head of the whole outfit he would know the Bible and perhaps what was going on better than anyone else. His statements made me question my faith in what I'd been taught, not a good thing from my point of view. I just can't believe all paranormal experiences people have are birthed from the devil. I had one the night before my mother died (I was fully awake). The hospice nurses told me the next morning that bunches of people have seen the exact same thing I had. Their explanation was I saw angels that were there to escort my mother to the next side. It made me feel a bunch better than thinking I saw the devil coming to get her.

[RumpleTumbler]

Their explanation was I saw angels that were there to escort my mother to the next side. It made me feel a bunch better than thinking I saw the devil coming to get her.

What did you see? Did I miss it?

[joyce]

What did you see? Did I miss it?

My mother was dying of cancer so she was hot, very hot. She was in the bedroom in a coma like state and the A.C. was turned down as far as it would go. The house was freezing so I left the front door open to get some heat into the house. I was sitting alone in the living room basically waiting for my mother to die. All of a sudden tons of flashes of lights zoomed through the front door and down the hallway towards my mothers room. This went on for what seemed like forever, but in reality it was probably a minute. I sat there stunned at what I was seeing, but I was not afraid. As soon as the light show ceased, I ran to my mothers room to check on her. The nurse told me she had several people tell her they had seen the same thing the night before their loved one died. The only conclusion the nurses could come to was it was angels.

[Roger J Carlson]

Well, as long as we're telling our experiences, I'll tell mine about sleep paralysis.

I've had it twice in my life. The first time I was in high school and living at home. I woke in the middle of the night to see two bright eyes staring at me from a dark head at the foot of my bed. The eyes were at bed height right next to my feet. I tried to move and I couldn't. I tried to call for my parents and I couldn't. Eventually, I was able to reach for my bedlamp and it turned out it was a sweater with brass buttons on the shoulder that my mom must have folded and placed on my bed after I was asleep. But the terror was absolutely real.

The next time was a few years after I was married. Again, I woke up in the night to see a talk, black figure standing at the end of the bed. Again, I couldn't move and I couldn't speak. I tried to nudge my wife or call to her, but I couldn't. Eventually, the paralysis faded and I was able to move. There was nothing there. No dark figure. Nothing. But because of my earlier experience, I had researched the sleep paralysis phenomena and recognized it for what it is.

If I hadn't, I might to this day be convinced it was a real alien visitation (or demon or whatever).

Again, I'm not saying that everyone's experience is just like mine. However, Satan is the Father of Lies and he's more than willing to use physical or physiological phenomena to achieve his goals. The point is to cling to Scripture. Jesus said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." And James says: "Even the demons believe and tremble." We have a God who is in control of all things. We do not have to fear the Darkness.

[callalily61]

I have one that's not a sleep paralysis story. This was a few years ago when I was wrestling with the idea of becoming a Christian. (For all of you who know I used to be a nun, these are not always contradictory concepts.) I mean wrestling day and night, for close to 2 years. I got up in the middle of the night to...use the facilities, shall we say. As I stepped into the hall and glanced to see what time it wasinto the dark spare room, lit only by diffused streetlights through the closed curtains, I saw a man's shape standing there. I knew it was Jesus. (Just knew. Don't ask how--I don't know that.)

Did I go into the spare room? No, like a dork. I went into the bathroom and took care of business. When I passed the room again, nothing. It wasn't till I was back in bed, that my brain consciously registered what I'd seen. Then I mildly freaked out.

Positive to this day that He came to confort me amidst the months of troubles to follow. (Spiritual troubles, that is. Of my own making--He wanted surrended and I'd dug in my heels like the mule-headed broad I am.)

[Roger J Carlson]

On another I have to let you know that an allegedly non-fiction book has already been done concerning a parallel concept (parallel to Christianity, but not actually Christian). That non-fiction work has been turned into a movie. It also speaks of regularly scheduled visitations happening maybe once or twice a year.Well, a deliberately fiction book based on the idea without the UFOlogy stuff might be worth writing. More on the order of Peretti.

[Sheryl Nantus]

off-topic but not really...

when my grandmother was dying in her nursing home, my aunt was with her for the last few minutes of her life.

suddenly my grandmother began talking, not to my aunt but to the dog she claims was lying at her foot of her bed - the family dog, Chi, who had passed away decades ago. My grandmother was thrilled to see her again and kept talking until she fell silent and closed her eyes.

then she passed on.

if nothing else, it reassures me that there *are* pets in heaven.

:)

[callalily61]

When my grandfather was in the hospital, dying, my grandmother said he would often look up toward the right-hand corner of the room and talk to his dead brother and mother. didn't faze her too much--and this from a woman who once saw Bela Lugosi in a department store, shrieked, and fainted. :D

[III]

Here goes a question that might get my head chopped off, but here it goes......How would my experiences fit in with God and what the Bible states as fact.
1. I heard voices (never understood what the mass was saying) until I turned them off at around 20.

2. I've been visited by spirits of my dead mother and father several times, and I was not asleep. I have also seen/felt other spirits my whole life.

3. I have experienced what would be called Astral Projection quite a few times, though it took me years to understand what was really happening. I'm not quite sure how the Bible looks at this.

4. I have experienced paranormal things my whole life, feeling evil, good spirits, etc.

5. And last, why on earth would a man of the church tell me I was filled with evil and none of these happening, or gifts as I would label them, was from God.

I believe in a God, but I must admit when I went to the church for answers I left feeling more like an outcast, or child of the devil. I'm just wondering how someone else might explain them.

joyce: :Hug2:

And I'm going to leave explanations to Roger or III or someone else here who's qualified. I'm just the comforter. :)

The older I get, the more I think age is what makes people "qualified" to answer. That means Roger is WAY more qualified than I am ;)

The only question I can answer with real confidence is #5. The answer is, it sounds like the pastor was being myopic, obtuse, and uncompassionate. That type of "counseling" is downright negligent, imo.

As for how your experiences fit in with the Bible, I'd say they're not the norm, but they're not empiraclly "evil" or anything like that. Look at all the accounts in the book of Acts. The apostles heard voices, detected evil spirits, saw angels, received visions - all that stuff. Did that make them evil or crazy? Heck no!

Unfortunately I don't know you well enough yet, Joyce, to offer alot of insight about your life in particular and what's shaped it, but based solely on what you've described, it sounds like you've been given a pretty special and unique life. Any specialness has its price, and I'm sure you've felt the burden of that price. But I think God made you on purpose, like a loving father and a master artist. You are a miraculous masterpiece - never believe differently.

My advice - just keep seeking God with all your heart and continue to grow in love and knowledge and maturity. If you do that, everything else will work itself out. If I had to guess, I'd say God has some incredible things in store for your life and you will be able to encourage many people.

I'd encourage you to read and meditate on 1 John 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter). It doesn't exactly apply to what you're talking about, but I think it'd be encouraging and instructional.

Much love :Hug2:

[joyce]

Thanks III, made me feel better all ready. I'm 49 so I've lived a pretty long, vivid life so far with these experiences. Trust me, I could write a book on everything that has happened.

[III]

Thanks III, made me feel better all ready. I'm 49 so I've lived a pretty long, vivid life so far with these experiences. Trust me, I could write a book on everything that has happened.

Maybe you should? I'd buy it. I'm jealous, actually. I've always wanted to see an angel. I guess I'll get to see them soon enough, though.

(countdown until RumpleTumbler posts a pic of Charlie's Angels ... 3...2..)

[III]

It's okay, Jo. Post the Timothy thing. ;) Ya whipper-snapper.

[JoNightshade]

Whaaaat? :)

1 Timothy 4:12
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

[III]

I like to start reading in chapter 5:1 "Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father." ;) But I love your point, Jo and yours is actually used in context. Well done.

[callalily61]

Somebody betterversed in the Bible can attribute this for me (because y'all are kind to the er... middle-aged):

Your old men will dream dreams and your young men will see visions.

I think context is okay here.

[Pat~]

Well, I've shared my story about my mission trip to Africa...but what I didn't share was how I knew I was supposed to go on that trip. My son had mentioned wanting to go on our church's 'next' mission trip back in summer 2001. I said, 'great, I'll go with you'--because I was so encouraged that he wanted to go; he'd had a history of struggles, both personally and spiritually. Well, when the next trip was announced, it turned out it was going to be to Uganda. It also was going to last 12 days. My son was in school at the time, and his academics were so poor, we knew he couldn't go. But I'd mentioned it to the leadership at the church, and they encouraged me to pray about going by myself.

Well, I prayed off and on for about a week, and then the deadline came. It was Saturday night, I still had no answer, and I had to commit the next day one way or the other. I went out on my balcony, looked up at the stars, and spent a long time explaining to God how I just had to know whether or not I was supposed to go on this trip. And then I went to bed.

That night I slept soundly. In the morning, right before I woke up, I had a dream unlike any other I've ever experienced. It's hard to write about here on a message board. But the gist of it is, I was at the cross, at the crucifixion of Christ. It wasn't as though I was just dreaming I was there; I sensed I was actually there. There are no words to express it; it was so intensely real, and I was flooded with every emotion ever felt by that encounter. And I just fell to my knees, overwhelmed with one repeating thought, "Everybody should know."

I woke up to that phrase going through my head, and before my feet hit the floor, I knew I had my answer. There's a passage in the Bible I'd never noticed before, but which now has great significance to me:

"For God does speak--now one way, now another--though man may not perceive it. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men as they slumber in their beds, He may speak in their ears..." (Job 33:14-16)

As we planned our trip that fall, 9/11 happened. A lot of people questioned whether we should still go. But I knew I was going. Even when I got very ill 2 weeks before the trip with a really obscure intestinal bacteria and got dehydrated. I was finally correctly diagnosed and given the meds I needed less than 12 hours before our flight. But I knew I'd be going. My lower legs had swollen to twice their normal size due to the electrolyte imbalance, but because of 9/11, there was hardly anybody on the plane, so that whole trip to Africa I was able to stretch them out on the seat next to me and get some relief. Ah, the memories... :)

[Plot Device]

This dove-tails into my response to Joyce, but I think these claims are the same Sleep Paralysis that I referred to before. Here's an interesting article about it: http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/abduction.html

Roger, what I am about to post is done so in ths spirit of friendly debate:

1) What does sleep paralysis have to do with nose bleeds and ear infections?

2) How would any instance of sleep paraylsis on my part cause two other women in the same house (but in two totally different rooms from me) to also experience paranormal phenomenon?

I see zero dove-tailing here, Roger.

[Unique]

And I appreciate everyone's candor in it. It is good that we are encouraging one another.

Is it not possible for someone to be gifted with abilities that perhaps others are not?


I believe this to be true. Is everyone a carpenter or a baker? I can't believe we'd all have the same spiritual gifts either.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences in administration but the same Lord. ... For to one is given, by the Spirit, the word of wisdom; to another, the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another, the interpretation of tongues. But all these work that one and the very same Spirit, dividing to every man several as he will.

So that's why I say - yes, it's real and no, not everyone can truly understand. It's not their gift. It's possible to understand and accept intellectually but not completely because it's never happened to them and it probably never will.

And that's okay! It's supposed to be like that.

Is it possible I have tuned into a spiritual channel that others perhaps have turned off?

It might be turned off - they may never have had it in the first place. At least not to the extent you do. I believe everyone has at least a little bit of discernment; some people seem to have more of it.

I'm not so sure about the Christian psychiatrist thing, since the last time I tried that I was told what I was experiencing was evil.

Something one of my professors told me once upon a time: 'Fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class.' Same holds true for preachers, teachers, priests, rabbis, and all the other professions.

Somehow I knew there would not be a simple answer to this experience.

They don't call it a 'Great Mystery' for nothing.

I would like to go back to one of Roger's points. Satan is the great deceiver. He is called the father of lies. Think of what we know about lies.
The best lies have a kernel of truth, that's what makes them believable.

I believe that is why we are warned against doing some things. Not because they are 100% flat out not possible but because the part that is true can lead you astray.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11. 'There shall not be found among you anyone who make his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or who uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, of a charmer, or a consulter of mediums, or a wizard, or a necromancer.'

This is Moses speaking to Israel. Does it still apply to Christians? I imagine it does but I won't speak to that with authority.

Look further: Deut. 18-14 Thou shall be perfect with the Lord thy God. For these nations, whom thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners; but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not permitted thee so to do.

My interpretation is - it isn't that we can't - it's that we're not supposed to. We don't need to because we are perfect with the Lord our God.

I don't disagree with anything anyone has said here. Plot Device's & III's experiences leave me humbled and awed (because I'm glad it didn't happen to me!)

More later - ((hugs to everyone - be of good cheer!))

[Plot Device]

::ETA:: (Unique, I only just saw your post #74. It seems to agree with mine. :) )

And I want to try and address in one fell swoop a few recent rep point questions, and a few recent PM questions, and a few questions posed to me publically here in this thread.

The general gist of these questions people have politely launched at me in the past 24 hours is: why do I feel ALL of this stuff has been "bad"? And (more importantly) what should I say to those poeple--especially Christians--who have experienced similar or somewhat relative phenomena, and who themsleves do NOT believe it to be bad (such as being visited by ghosts, experiencing astral projection, having out of body experiences, having phychic premonitions, etc)?


I want to point to both the Old Testament warnings against what is blanketly termed "witchcraft," as well as the New Testament (especially in the Book of Acts) admonitions against it. My general and all-encompassing definition of witchcraft is this:

WITCHCRAFT: tapping into a source of power that is NOT of God.

Okay. Fine. But what's "of God" and what's not?

The Bible shows us many situations in which Godly men and women somehow used/wielded/operated within supernatural powers. This is true of both the Old and New Testaments. But trying to determine when a power/gift/ability is of God, and when it is NOT of God, can be a trickly business. So, I've formulated a few "rules" for makig such a determination. My first rule is that #1) any instance of supernatural power needs to somehow glorify God and serve his purposes. And my second rule is that #2)virtually no "godly" power (and this is only in my opinion, and so I could be wrong here) can ever be summoned or conjured at will -- it happens when it happens, and entirely at the timing and discretion of God (and usually for his purpses, see Rule #1 above).

With these two guidelines, I see astral projection as an utter frivolity, serving no discernable purpose whatsoever. The best I can say about my own experiences with it is that it was downright fun.




Meanwhile, as for those people who experience various phenomena, are they "evil"?? Are they of the devil? What about people who do not in any way WANT this stuff to happen to them, but it just sort of happens to them on its own? Are they guilty of "witchcraft"?

I have an explanation that is a little invovled. But the overarching answer is: no, I do not believe such people are evil or of the devil, etc. HOWEVER ..... if they start to ACTIVELY seek this stuff out, and try to duplicate the phenomena at will, THEN they are, in my opinion, venturing into the realm of sin.






Here's my outlook on it. And my outlook is just an opinion, not based FIRMLY upon the Bible (only loosely so), and so it isn't something I will insist upon.






My outlook:

I do not believe God would bother wasting any real estate within the pages of the Bible on stuff that just plain isn't true and real. So if God said "don't do witchcraft," then I'm willing to believe that there really is such a thing as witchcraft. Meanwhile, WHY is there such a thing as witchcraft? HOW is it possible?

I personally believe that we are all somehow "damaged" as a result of the Fall. Sin entered the world via the Fall, as did sickness and disease and birth defects, etc.

18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

--Romans 8: 18-22



Now ALL of the creation has been "damaged" by the fall, not just humans, but all the animals and plants, etc. The whole planet has been set off kilter by Adam and Eve. But in the midst of all this mutual messed-up-edness of the whole planet, we humans alone possess something so unique and so special that nothing else in all the Creation has anythig that can compare: we humans possess what's called "the image of God" within ourselves. (And I subscribe to the idea that not even the angels have "the image of God" within them, and that is part of what sets us apart from them.) As far as what exactly constitutes "the image of God" within us is not entirely clear (and that is a profound question that has stymied scholars for well over 30 centuries now). But the Bible does very firmly state that we do indeed have it, that it's somehow connected to our dignity and our worth as individuals, and is cited as the reason why it's okay to kill an animal but NOT okay to kill a human.

Now then .... when Adam and Eve fell, the creation was tilted off into the realm of "damaged," the entire race of Adam was then somehow "damaged," and the image of God itself as found in all humans from then onward was also somehow "damaged." And at this point I want to compare and contrast physical/biological damage with spiritual damage.

There are many physical maladies that plague humanity to this day. Some manifest themselves in neorological problems, and therefore a specialist in the field of neurology needs to treat them--and he is one type of doctor trained in one specialized field. Others involve malfunctions of the immune system, and so an immunologist needs to treat those--a totally different type of doctor trained in an entirely different field. Others are problems with the circulatory system, so a cardiologist needs to be brought in--again a totally differrent type of doctor trained in a different field.

On a spiritual level I believe there are many people in the population who each suffer from different types of damage to their spiritual selves. And that some very strange spiritual and even supernatural manifestations can result from some of the more peculiar types of damage. Some people might be claravoyant. Some might have ESP. Some might be able to engage in astral projection. Etc. So it seems that there are MANY people walking around in life unknowigly suffering from odd misfirings of their spiritual potential energy, and a few of these misfirings can have dramatic consequences and result in some impressive abilities (many of which are not necessarily able to be controlled very well--if at all--by the people who experience them).

God's response, I believe, was to blanketly forbid all types of paranormal experimentation and exploration by lumping all of it under the umbrella of "witchcraft". God pretty much said: "Don't do it" and "don't pursue it." Yes, these things kinda just spontaneosly happens to many people from time to time, and not of most people's choosing (kind of like a hiccup, I guess). So if it just sort of happens to YOU from time to time ... well ... don't sweat it. But my feeling is that trying to develop any of those skills and refine them and enhance them --THAT is not a good thing because THAT (I believe) can also incur an utterly unintended and potentially life-destroying interface with the forces of evil.

Another pet theory I have on all of this is that the Kingdom of Darkness is sophisticated enough to keep tabs on who among us was born with which supernaturally-empowered goof-ups and malfunctions -- which types of uninteneded paranormal hiccups or "birth defects" are manifest in each of us. And so they try to exploit different people's potential damage in different ways. And I believe that our correct response should be not to engage ourselves in any or al of our own various supernatural potentialities--not THESE potentialities because THESE are forbidden.




Jesus' example was they laying down of power, not the pursuit of it. So we also should lay down any powers we might have, and submit to God and to his power and his timing and his will. He might very well use us in supernatural ways from time to time, but it will never be in a way that we can conjur.

[III]

This thread has been particularly refreshing and challenging for me. We (read I) expend so much effort to NOT look like the negative stereotype: head-in-the-clouds, loony, experientially-obsessed, mythology-driven, judgmental, hypocritical Christians (did I leave anything out?) I know I tend to keep these types of personal "supernatural" experiences to myself for just that reason. And if I'm being honest, my real motivation is to keep from feeling alienated. At the core, I'm afraid of not being liked.

This thread is an exercise in opening up to each other and to anyone who cares to read it; in risking ridicule; in exploring things we believe but can't fully explain. This is an area where I'm weak and selfish and immature, even after all these years. And yet God has used an open-ended original post to prod my heart and encourage me to grow in this area. Now that's a divine appointment.

Okay, enough swimming in Lake III. Back to the awesome discussion.

[III]

Somebody betterversed in the Bible can attribute this for me (because y'all are kind to the er... middle-aged):

Your old men will dream dreams and your young men will see visions.

I think context is okay here.

This is from Joel 2:28 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Peter also quotes it in Acts 2. It's a prophecy about the "last days", which we may be in ;), but that's for another thread (hee hee).

If you haven't already checked out http://www.biblegateway.com/ you should bookmark it. I use it all the time for these type of word searches, studying, etc.

[callalily61]

At the core, I'm afraid of not being liked.



As if, III.

[callalily61]

Jesus' example was they laying down of power, not the pursuit of it. So we also should lay down any powers we might have, and submit to God and to his power and his timing and his will. He might very well use us in supernatural ways from time to time, but it will never be in a way that we can conjur.

[applauds Plot Device] I'm pasting this in my "perspective" file.

[Roger J Carlson]

Roger, what I am about to post is done so in ths spirit of friendly debate:

1) What does sleep paralysis have to do with nose bleeds and ear infections?

2) How would any instance of sleep paralysis on my part cause two other women in the same house (but in two totally different rooms from me) to also experience paranormal phenomenon?

I see zero dove-tailing here, Roger.
It was not (and is not) my intent to debate this (friendly or not), but I will explain.

If you'll refer back to my post (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1692742#post1692742), you'll see that I was addressing one particular part of your post, i.e. Christian UFOlogy. Christian UFOlogy is simply alien abduction conspiracy theory wrapped up in Christian trappings. I believe both can be largely explained by sleep paralysis. It is a peculiar mental state that feels like true wakefulness but is not. It has been studied under controlled conditions where the outside observer saw nothing, yet it was so real to the person experiencing it that they prefer to believe that the researchers were affected (by the aliens) rather than themselves.

1) Nose-bleeds and ear infections:

People will often confuse co-incident events (happened at the same time) for co-related events (resulting from the same event). A certain large percentage (30% (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-141531351.html)) of people have one or two nose-bleeds every year. Another large percentage (40-50% (http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/abduction.html)) have isolated sleep paralysis. There is an extremely good chance that a large percentage of the population will fall into both categories. When these people get together and compare notes, they'll say, "Oh my gosh. I have a lot of nose bleeds, too." Because there are a lot of them, it's natural to believe they are co-related, when in fact they aren't.

On the other hand, they may in fact be co-related. High blood pressure is a major factor in nose bleeds. The fear induced by sleep paralysis can create a spike in blood pressure, producing a nose bleed. There may be other factors as well, stress for instance, can also cause nose bleeds and may be a factor in sleep paralysis. Surely, we could and should look for natural explanations rather than "paranormal" ones, especially inventing aliens who have no basis in either science OR Christianity.

2) Sleep paralysis affecting others:

I was not addressing that specifically in my other post, but I will here.

It is NOT my contention that your experience and those of the others in your house could be explained by sleep paralysis and nothing more. I don't know if it was "real" or not. But does it matter? God often used dreams and visions to communicate with people in the Bible. Does the fact that they were dreams make the event any less "real"? I don't think so.

As I said before, I DO believe there is spiritual warfare all around us on a spiritual level that we never (or almost never) see. But Satan is NOT creative and he is NOT powerful. Satan can't create dreams to oppress us, but he can exploit situations (like sleep paralysis) to make us think he can, to make us think he's strong. He's not.

The Bible says we have the power to cast out demons. They have NO power over us. In all the demon possessions in the Bible, no Christian was ever possessed. Demons can only have power over us to the extent that we give it to them. And we do that by fearing them.

I have no fear of demons. I have the Holy Spirit, the presence of the living God, dwelling within me. If God is with me then who shall stand against me?

2b) Paranormal phenomena

I'm disturbed by this. I don't believe in the "paranormal" or the "supernatural". I believe there's just stuff God can do, stuff the angels and demons can do, and the stuff we can do. All of it is natural. All of it in God's plan and control. Occasionally God gives gifts to humans that are beyond what we can normally do. These gifts are always for the good of the Kingdom and are clearly delineated in the Bible.

When we start mixing the paranormal into Christianity, we run the risk of falling into one of Satan's favorite traps -- getting us to believe something close to Christianity that is not. When we start concentrating on our paranormal gifts, we stop concentrating on God. And Satan loves that.

[III]

But Satan is NOT creative and he is NOT powerful. Satan can't create dreams to oppress us, but he can exploit situations (like sleep paralysis) to make us think he can, to make us think he's strong. He's not.

The Bible says we have the power to cast out demons. They have NO power over us. In all the demon possessions in the Bible, no Christian was ever possessed. Demons can only have power over us to the extent that we give it to them. And we do that by fearing them.



I'll split hairs with you on this one, Roger since your hairs are so bountiful, and mine are so . . . unbountiful.

I agree with your larger point - God is infinitely more powerful than Satan and in Christ we participate in that authoritative power. But we still have weaknesses and vulnerabilities that open us to demonic oppression, although not the type of posession we see demonstrated in Scripture.

I don't see anything in Scripture to indicate Satan is not powerful and not creative. He's the ruler of the kingdom of the air and roams about like a roaring lion (see potpourri of verses below). To blanketly say "Satan could not give you a dream" - I'd have to see some scripture supporting that. And believe me I'D LOVE TO.

James 1:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%201:13-15;&version=31;) - Satan (contextually) "dragging away" Christians to play on their temptations.

Isaiah 14:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&version=31&context=verse) - The morning star who once laid low the nations.

Jude 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=72&chapter=1&verse=9&version=31&context=verse) - Even Michael would not dare to slander Lucifer.

Mark 9:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=31&context=context#en-NIV-24564) - Evil spirit that was able to resist the Apostles, who had a great track record up until then.

Hebrews 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=2&verse=7&version=31&context=verse) - Man is lower than the angels.

Ephesians 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=16&version=31&context=verse) - The flaming arrows of the evil one.

[Higgins]

I'll split hairs with you on this one, Roger since your hairs are so bountiful, and mine are so . . . unbountiful.



In context, the Morning star in Isaiah was powerful before his fall into the underworld and the point is to compare the fall of the King of Babylon to a cosmic fall...but it is a fall from power ie...the Morning star no longer has that power, which is the point of the image.

Perhaps on a theoretical, cosmic scale, demonic forces may be said to have some power, but on a day-to-day basis there is no reason to see the operation of demonic forces in dreams. As Roger says, there is every reason to believe that a Christian (even, one supposes, one in name only) is perfectly and completely armored and armed against all demonic powers of any kind.

After all, they can just turn away from the flickering world of the internet and go make some tea and read a book.

[JoNightshade]

This thread makes me want to share, so I'm going to share some more. :) This was how God called me to go to China for a year. Just to start off, I stated before my fear of public speaking. People have always said "Oh you should be a teacher" when I told them I was majoring in English, but I always "knew" I NEVER EVER wanted to teach. I mean... it just had no appeal to me.

Then some girl at my church gave a presentation on her year teaching English in China. I was like, 'Oh, that's interesting. It would be cool to do that someday,' (as in, years from now).

About a week later, I woke up at 4 AM. I should also say here that I love my sleep and I sleep in, always, as late as possible. So waking up at 4 AM is not a normal thing.

When I woke up, I was TERRIFIED. I literally found myself hiding under my sheets. I was scared and I didn't know what was going on. It wasn't like a "Oh man something bad is happening" terrified, though, and after a few minutes I realized what it was: The presence of God. I was terrified because God was there, with me, and God is holy and just and scary to a poor sinner. (Note - I didn't see or hear anything; it was just something I KNEW.) So I got up, and I started to pray. I was like, Okay, what do you want? And somehow I knew that God wanted me to go to China. I was like, okay, so, how do I know that this is not all just in my head? I need some scriptures here.

Instantly, the book of Ruth popped into my head. I flipped open my bible and started reading, and what Ruth says when Naomi decides to go back to her people might as well have been in glowing neon:

"Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the LORD deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me."

Now it seems like a weird connection, but at that time I realized that this was how God wanted me to follow him-- wherever he was, I would go. And he was telling me he was going to China.

Then I was like, Um, okay, how the heck am I supposed to tell my dad? (He's not a Christian and actually very much anti-religion.) I knew he was going to freak out if I told him I wanted to drop my life and go live in some other country for a year.

The first thing that came to mind was when Jesus calls the disciples, so I flipped to Matthew and started reading. I quote (bolding mine):

Going on from there, he [Jesus] saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

After that all I could do was just sit there, totally blown away. How could I not obey? I prayed about it a bit more just to confirm, and then the next week I called up a Christian sending organization. A few months later I was in China, teaching.

It was a super hard, very dark year of my life, but I tell you what... even at my lowest point (and I got very low), when I wasn't praying or reading the bible, what I clung to was that knowledge that God had put me right where he wanted, and that I was there for a purpose, and that he would never leave me.

[JoNightshade]

PS - Telling my dad? It took me weeks to work up the courage. I made a trip home and confronted him with my knees knocking together. His response? "Oh? I think that's a great idea!"

Me::Jaw:

[Roger J Carlson]

I don't see anything in Scripture to indicate Satan is not powerful and not creative. He's the ruler of the kingdom of the air and roams about like a roaring lion (see potpourri of verses below). To blanketly say "Satan could not give you a dream" - I'd have to see some scripture supporting that. And believe me I'D LOVE TO. I didn't say Satan was not powerful, but that he has no power over me (or any Christian) except to the extent that we give it to him.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 10:17-19
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

When I said he isn't creative, I didn't mean that he wasn't clever or sly. He tries to outwit us at every turn. I meant that he can't create anything. In all of scripture, I can't find any instance of him creating anything. He's always tearing down, afflicting, deceiving, devouring.

Can I quote scripture that Satan can't give dreams? No. It speculation on my part, but I don't believe he can. But we know he can take almost any good thing and twist it for his own ends. I think he can take a dream we create and use it to convince us he is more powerful than he is.


James 1:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%201:13-15;&version=31;) - Satan (contextually) "dragging away" Christians to play on their temptations. Actually, it says we are dragged away by our own desires. Satan can only do it with our help. 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

Isaiah 14:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&version=31&context=verse) - The morning star who once laid low the nations. Yes, he once laid low the nations, but he has fallen to Earth.

Jude 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=72&chapter=1&verse=9&version=31&context=verse) - Even Michael would not dare to slander Lucifer. Our power to resist Satan comes through God. We can't do it ourselves. But God has given us this power. See Eph.6 below.

Mark 9:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=31&context=context#en-NIV-24564) - Evil spirit that was able to resist the Apostles, who had a great track record up until then. This was when Christ was with them before the Holy Spirit came upon them. At that time, remember, they lacked faith. Even Jesus could not do many miracles where the people lacked faith.

Hebrews 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=2&verse=7&version=31&context=verse) - Man is lower than the angels. But we're talking about demons. Jude 1:6 says: 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. They did not keep their positions.

Ephesians 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=16&version=31&context=verse) - The flaming arrows of the evil one.The full verse is: 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

We have the power to extinguish all his flaming arrows.

[Pat~]

As I said before, I DO believe there is spiritual warfare all around us on a spiritual level that we never (or almost never) see. But Satan is NOT creative and he is NOT powerful. Satan can't create dreams to oppress us, but he can exploit situations (like sleep paralysis) to make us think he can, to make us think he's strong. He's not.



Yeah, I think I'd have to agree with III on this one...though I think also that you clarified what you meant in the above post. I see Satan as quite powerful in one sense, in that he has been given (temporary) power over the earth. But as you said, Roger, he has no ultimate power over Christians--though I think God can and does allow him to oppress Christians sometimes. And this ties into my belief that Satan is creative--not that he can create something out of nothing (only God can do that), but that he can dream up a zillion ways to make us miserable and ineffective, even as Christians. Remember in the book of Job, when Satan asked for the chance to plague Job--there's the perfect example. Job was "righteous"--and yet Satan had plenty of power to oppress and harass. But Job's strength was in his faith--and while Job did a lot of questioning and even complaining, he never lost that. That strength was not in and of himself--it was the grace of God that God promises to provide believers in times of trial and/or temptation.

One of the things about Satan to remember, though, is that he is not the 'evil opposite' of God. He is NOT omniscient--therefore, he does not know what you are thinking. (He sees our actions to determine that.) It's not inconceivable that he could whisper thoughts as we sleep; however, it's much more likely that he's tending to bigger affairs, and it's our own fallen nature that allows certain thoughts to flourish in a dream.

[Unique]

How did I miss this for three days? I'm sure I came down here looking ... things that make you go, 'hmm...'.

Anyway -
I still agree with everyone's statements even if they sometimes seem contradictory. Roger, thanks for your clarifications; they helped clarify in my mind what you meant.

The above few posts brought to mind Ephesians 6:10-20. I won't quote it all here but some of the relevant points. ( I use a Scofield Reference Bible most often so there are section headings and notes that may not appear in other Bibles)

(4) The warfare of Spirit-filled believers
.....(a) The warrior's power - ..be strong in the Lord...
.....(b) The warrior's armor

11. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
If it were easy and automatic through salvation, why would we need this warning/reminder?

.....(c) The warrior's foes
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It seems to me that Paul is telling us ... this isn't just other people doing things to you, it's not just your internal wrestling with sins of the flesh/mind/spirit; these principalities are real entities and you will be fighting them.

14-17 (specifics)
loins girded about with truth
the breastplate of righteousness
feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace
Above all, the shield of faith
the helmet of salvation
the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

That's pretty detailed information; some of it I can understand, some is not so clear. i.e., why Paul picked those body parts to be protected in that manner. There are little (**) notes by many of those words that reference other Scripture. Sometimes I look them up - but sometimes they just make me more confused so I don't.

.....(d) The warrior's resource
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit ...

I guess what I'm trying to say is - Yes. These 'principalities' are real and they will attack; we should expect to be attacked but we have a means of protection as outlined by Paul in the above verses.

Some people say, 'oh, well back in those days they didn't understand mental illness and called it demonic'. That is underestimating the people of those times and dismissing the reality of spiritual attack. In effect, it is like stripping off the armor - either your own or someone else's.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes mental illness is exactly that. But as believers I think we should keep in mind that sometimes it just looks like a cigar when in fact, it might be something else entirely. YMMV.

[Higgins]

.....
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes mental illness is exactly that. But as believers I think we should keep in mind that sometimes it just looks like a cigar when in fact, it might be something else entirely. YMMV.

Exactly. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But if you aren't sure you should have an expert in cigars (or a mental health professional) look at it before you assume it is a demon.

[Pat~]

Exactly. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But if you aren't sure you should have an expert in cigars (or a mental health professional) look at it before you assume it is a demon.

And especially helpful would be a mental health professional who is also trained theologically/spiritually.

[Sophia2]

A divine appointment can have many meanings and options. A calling, a specific mission with date and time, an engagement with God, an annointing of a prophet, the second birth, the wedding in the bridal chamber etc etc

Sophia

[HorrorWriter]

I'd tack onto that a loose idea of a Maslow's hierarchy of needs for demons:

1) Bind people to actually worship them to that person's detriment. I think this is why God put enmity between us and them as part of the original curse - for our own good. I think this type of "success" for them is pretty rare and like icing on the cake.
2) Nurture division and animosity between Christians. A full time job at which they are exceptionally well-practiced and talented.
3) Encourage us to sin when we're naturally tempted (as James says).
4) Snatch away God's truth when it is planted in our hearts (as in the Parable of the seed).
5) When all else fails, frighten or actually harm us.

In each case, I think demons can only use what's already there, be it resentment between Christians or temptation within ourselves or a resistance to God's voice. This hierarchy is just my own thinking, though - I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

The more I study the enemy, the more amazed I am at just how much MORE powerful God is and how much power He has given us. We tend to think of Jesus vs. Satan like a Rocky movie, where Jesus will somehow muster his strength at the end and throw one big punch to barely win. Scripture tells us that Jesus already has ALL powers and authorities subject to him and all we have to do is resist the Devil and he will flee from us. If we're truly full of God's love and seeking to be used and transformed by Him, the enemy is more of a skilled nuisance than anything else.

III,
Amen. You're spot-on! :D

[Unique]

You know, I really like that: the enemy is more of a skilled nuisance than anything else.

I think I'll keep it. Do you mind?

That's a good thought to keep lodged in the back of my mind when things seem to be going ... off.

[III]

You know, I really like that:

I think I'll keep it. Do you mind?

That's a good thought to keep lodged in the back of my mind when things seem to be going ... off.

Anything I wrote in this thread that you find edifying is yours to keep and use as you please. ;)

[III]

It was a super hard, very dark year of my life, but I tell you what... even at my lowest point (and I got very low), when I wasn't praying or reading the bible, what I clung to was that knowledge that God had put me right where he wanted, and that I was there for a purpose, and that he would never leave me.

Thanks for sharing that story, Jo. I must have missed it when you posted it. I think God has a small handfull of very special things that He wants us to participate in over the course of our lives. In general, I think He's happy letting us do whatever we want, as long as we're truly seeking Him and being shaped by Christ. Marry who you want to marry. Work where you want to work. Live where you want to live.

But I think there are a handfull of times in our lives when God steps in like He did with you, Jo, and says "I want you to do this for me. This is a good work which I prepared beforehand for you to do. This is a big part of why you're here." And it seems like that good thing almost always involves going through an extended dark period that breaks us completely. After that we're changed, sometimes for better and sometimes it takes years to heal. I wanna hear the whole China story, though!

[Pat~]

Thanks for sharing that story, Jo. I must have missed it when you posted it. I think God has a small handfull of very special things that He wants us to participate in over the course of our lives. In general, I think He's happy letting us do whatever we want, as long as we're truly seeking Him and being shaped by Christ. Marry who you want to marry. Work where you want to work. Live where you want to live.

But I think there are a handfull of times in our lives when God steps in like He did with you, Jo, and says "I want you to do this for me. This is a good work which I prepared beforehand for you to do. This is a big part of why you're here." And it seems like that good thing almost always involves going through an extended dark period that breaks us completely. After that we're changed, sometimes for better and sometimes it takes years to heal. I wanna hear the whole China story, though!

Was it Augustine who said, "Love God, and do what you will"? I think when our will is aligned with His, when we are in step with Him, what we 'want' IS what He wants. Of course, it's easy to get out of step, too, and that's probably what needs watching.

Jo, I also would love to hear about your China story, and the lessons God taught you in the 'desert.' Those are lessons to cherish.

Hmmm...that gives me an idea for a new contest... :)

[ned]

Haven't we all questioned the spiritual warfare that seems to be going on around us, and wondered how little we know about what's really happening?

If a person senses a "presence" what is it? That "thing" sitting on the bed, whispering in ears, scaring the bejeebers out of our mothers and sisters, what are they? Do they exist, or was it a rogue muscle spasm?

I tend toward skepticism when it comes to this sort of thing. Really, bedsprings do twang now and then. Cats jump on beds then disappear. Cats can time-warp, you know. I believe that more than I believe demons are tormenting innocent people in their bedrooms. I just don't get it.

When people say they have heard voices, usually evil, I tend to freak out. It scares the livin' tar out of me. I just don't want to know about that part of our world. I don't study it or think about it. I just back away.

I've mentioned before that I work in a small bed and breakfast type hotel/restaurant. The place is about 200 years old, and is often the venue for "ghost hunters." Generally, these are harmless little old ladies who stay in old places for a laugh and a reason to get together. Few of them are serious.

Only once did I feel uncomfortable with a guest who had come for this purpose. She was younger, and so obviously alone. She really scared me, not because she said there were "hundreds" of spirits wandering around the place, but because she said she'd been hearing voices since age four, when her dolls used to talk to her and sometimes lead her out of the house at night...I won't get into the details.

My only thoughts were that if there were spirits in our hotel, she had brought them with her. I pitied her. She was so obviously neglected from childhood through adulthood. She was so obviously desirous of being admired, of being loved. She needed God more than anyone I've ever met. I spoke with her, but felt, in my heart, that she did not hear. Her mind was so closed to anything but her belief in the world of ghosts and spirits of the dead. They were her friends, her family, her lover and her children. It hurts to tell this, but I wanted her gone. I did not want to speak to her of God or of His love. Whenever I started to speak, I felt I was choking on my words. I believed, then, that anything I said would be used for the wrong purpose.

I asked God what I should do. I told Him I wanted her to go away. Five minutes later, she said she was bored and was leaving. She left, and I thanked God with my whole heart. The air really felt lighter when she went. I don't believe that woman was intentionally evil, but I know what I felt in her presence.

Is this all imagination? I wonder, sometimes. A lady freaked me out with stories, so I wanted her gone. Might that be all there was to it? How much can we blame on our own faulty wiring? Maybe a lot.

[Unique]

My dear friends,

I remember our discussions here in this thread very well. So I am coming back to ask for your help. We spoke of demons and tongues, spiritual attack and much in between.

This medicine I am taking to quit smoking is very, very powerful. I understand the side effects because I have seen them before. I have atypical reactions to medications. I always have. You are all writers so I'm sure you know atypical means - not the standard reaction.

"Vivid dreaming" is supposed to be a side effect. Some people even enjoy this. As a wordsmith, that is not the description I'd use. At first the dreams were pleasant. And - for the first time in a long time I am remembering them so I count it for the good.

Two days ago, the dreams started to change. Started to? Ha. They just did. >snap< just like that. So I am dreaming I am with friends, maybe some of you, even. I remember I am smiling and then some creepy feeling fingers are all over my body. I don't see them - but I feel them. YUCK.

Immediately dream changes to ugly. Then, it quickly flashes back to the nice feeling and then back again to the creepy fingers. This scares me badly. So I get up out of bed.

This morning, I am exhausted so when I go to sleep, I sleep right away. When I am dreaming this time, again a creepy, evil feeling. I get up, go to my son's room, feel on the wall for the switch I know is there. I can't find it. Try to run my hands along bedframe to get him up and LET's Go. Now.
I feel the frame but cannot get the job done. This is almost overwhelming and just like real life. So very much so. More than dreams usually are.

Then - I wake up. This is so disgusting the feelings. Please pray for me, my dear friends. Even if it is only a swift, 'Be with her, Jehovah'. I appreciate you all here so much.

And I wish you the best this holiday season. Please be careful out there. The battle is not over yet.

Yours in Christ
>''<

[Pat~]

Unique, know that we are praying for you. Thank you for sharing this, and I am so sorry you're having this reaction to that drug. Just horrible. I've found that the best defense against attack is the Word of God. Our enemy has no answer for that (remember Christ in the desert?) Bathe yourself in scripture right now, morning, evening, whenever you can (1 Peter 1, Ephesians 6:10-20). And remember, "Greater is He that is within you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4). You are not fighting this thing alone. The hand that was pierced for you is gripping yours tightly.

I'm sending you a PM.

[III]

You're at the top of the prayer list, Unique. You're dearly loved by many and you'll get through this, so hang in there!

[Unique]

Thank you. I knew I could count on you. We are a chain bound together by His love. :)

[Simple Living]

I hope I'm not too late to join in.

The purpose of divine appointments is to accomplish the will of God. Just typing that sentence invigorates and encourages me! To accomplish the will of God is the purpose of everything. It's the purpose of miracles, free will, sovereignty, success, failure, even the laws of nature.

Once you realize that that's what the bottom line is, everything makes sense and, combined with God's ability to use everything to accomplish His will and bring Him glory, you'll start seeing with new eyes. Whatever life's circumstances are in your life, they're an opportunity to see God work. It opens up the door for divine appointments.

I don't think divine appointments are uncommon at all. I believe they happen every day and we'll start to recognize them when we look for them. They're not always the glowing, Touched By An Angel moments. Many times they're the seemingly insignificant, every day moments.

Have you ever heard the right song on the radio at the right time? Have you ever been talking to someone and they come out with, "I really needed to hear that," or "that really confirms something for me." It seemed like your average conversation to you, but, to the other person, it was a divine appointment. Have you ever been through a fast food drive through and the thought occurs to you to pay for the people in the car behind you? That could very well be a divine appointment for whatever purpose God knows about and we don't. (Perhaps they didn't have as much cash as they thought they did when they placed their order.)

I work for the government in an IT call center. I'm not very IT-minded! I learned what I needed to know and can parrot the information to our customers. Without any IT knowledge, how on earth did I get this job? Divine Appointment. God knows I love people. All people. I'm very servant-minded. I love helping people. God knew that He could use my heart for people in that position. During my interview, I was honest and said that I'm basically IT illiterate. They hired me immediately without putting me through a series of tests or taking the usual two to three months they usually take. The other two that were hired at the same time, had to go through all of that. It was God. As a result, I've witnessed to so many of our customers (on a recorded line, nonetheless).

Our customers have stressful jobs, so I like to make them laugh and jolt them out of the corporate zombie mindset and let them know I understand because I used to be in the same position. Heck, I've even shared recipes with customers! I'm constantly e-mailed by my customers telling me how much our conversation meant to them. They even call my supervisor to let her know how much they appreciated my help. I'm considered one of the top employees. Not bad for not understanding my job description! My point is, these are all divine appointments. In no way is any of this to my credit, abilities, wisdom, efforts or anything else. It's all God at work in our lives, directly and indirectly, because of His love for us. He cares for us and provides, not always what we want, but sometimes what we need.

It's like the saying goes, "God doesn't call the trained. He trains the called."

I'm sorry this post is so long.:o Once I get to talking about God, it's really hard to stop! :e2woo:

[Simple Living]

Unique,

Know that you're being lifted up to the Father, being bathed in prayer. :e2grouphu<--- AW Christian Forum in prayer.

[Unique]

Thank you. It's never too late to join in. I feel that in my life many times I am saved from certain physical death by His grace. I don't know why. I'm ready to go ... but He leaves me here.

It is not unusual for my mind that the Creator of the Laws of Physics can do as He chooses with them. He wants to defy gravity for someone - why not? He created gravity.

I'm just simple person who learned to love the Lord at an early age. I never believed, 'you should/you shouldn't'. I wanted to know for myself. The Bible tells me what I need to know to live right. I can read as well as the next person so I know what it says. :) I also have as many translations/versions as I can acquire and I compare.

I feel better already; thank you so much. This will be one big struggle but I want to win this time.

[Unique]

I just wanted ya'll to know - that night - no nightmares at all. I slept like a rock.

No nightmares since then, either. I hope things go back to nice. Those are much more fun.

Thanks for the help.
>''<

[Pat~]

Unique, I'm so glad the nightmares have stopped, and that you're able to sleep.

[III]

Still prayin' for ya, Unique; for a peaceful and serene Christmas season.