Go with the flow, or buck the tide...?

[Barbarique]

*

[scarletpeaches]

I would say most people like to think of themselves as individuals - whether that's true or not. No one likes to think of themselves as a conformist, as that implies lacking the ability to think for themselves.

That said, it's an accusation levelled at me many a time that I like to cause trouble or if someone tells me I can't do something, I spend all my energy figuring out a way to do it just to prove them wrong.

So I guess that makes me contrary, rather than individualistic, as my behaviour is still predictable; I just like to annoy people. :D

[CaroGirl]

Well, I think one either bucks a trend, or goes against the tide but, nitpicking aside, I'm a conformist, externally. I was raised not to make a fuss, but accept my lot in life.

In my creative work, I like to think, I create unique stories with a unique perspective. Only I have ever had my own experiences, which make me who I am, therefore, only I can write my stories.

[Esopha]

Neither. I'm practically minded.

Is it going to be to my advantage to go with the flow? Or am I going to be disgusted with myself for the rest of my life if I don't stand up for what I believe in, in this case? Is this an essential part of my being that I really care about, or something stupid like a hamburger that's been cooked wrong?

What are the pros and cons? Is being stubborn going to cost me a book deal? An agent? A booksigning? Which is most important to me? Which am I willing to risk?

How good is the publisher, the agent, the booksigning? Do I see this being a long term relationship, or is it just a platform to help raise me to the next level?

Do I like these people? Is this going to effect me on a personal level, or is it a simply professional relationship?

How much effect will this decision have on my future?

What are my principles on this matter?

When someone starts a sentence with 'You should...' my immediate response is 'Why? Persuade me.'

If they can't, too bad. Not worth my time.

Also, I think the labels 'individualist' and 'conformist' are just that - labels. Everybody should be who they are, and not strive to be like everyone else or worse, strive to be a complete individual. Either way, you're selling yourself short.

[Azraelsbane]

Buck the tide, baby! If I'm not pissing someone off, I'm doing something wrong. :D

[MidnightMuse]

I'm a Realist.

[Moon Daughter]

I guess I'm more of the "says who?" It also depends on the situation. When someone who has no right to boss me around tells me to do something, I usually do the opposite.

[III]

Someone please answer this question on my behalf.

[ClaudiaGray]

Depends on whether the person saying "you should" knows what they're talking about.

[StoryG27]

If someone says, "You should," I listen. Whether or not I take the advice depends on many things.

I definitely don't "buck the tide" just because I have a desire to be individual. I actually wish I could conform because my views differ so greatly from my family's and most of my friends', and I've always been set apart. I don't try to make a fuss and prove I'm the one who broke the mold, and I don't do what everyone else is doing just to be part of a group.

[Stew21]

I don't care for the terms assigned. There is a lot of gray area between individualist and conformist. To me they are opposite ends of a continuum. People can fall anywhere on the spectrum between conformist and individualist, and where they fall on that spectrum varies with the situation, topic, and who presents them with information or directives.
and then principles of social judgment theory come into play. Social judgment theory. (http://www.as.wvu.edu/~sbb/comm221/chapters/judge.htm)
It's just not that simple.
sometimes I'm a conformist - but only when it falls within my latitude of acceptance.
sometimes I'm an individualist - depends on the consequences vs. rewards.

[scarletpeaches]

Buck the tide, baby! If I'm not pissing someone off, I'm doing something wrong. :D

Your very existence pisses me off.

[javili]

It's just not that simple.
sometimes I'm a conformist - but only when it falls within my latitude of acceptance.
sometimes I'm an individualist - depends on the consequences vs. rewards.

So...Wishy-washy?


Just kidding. I am myself a tide-bucker. (The use of which continues my expansion of peculiar English expressions)

This might have something to do with my recent and sudden lack of employment. (Which I figures will last until my newspaper loses about two games in the Periodista League and they come crawling back. Nobody remembers that I won a Silva Award in 2003, but nobody forgets I hit over .500 and have 40% more RBI's than whoever's in second place)

[Stew21]

So...Wishy-washy?


Just kidding. I am myself a tide-bucker. (The use of which continues my expansion of peculiar English expressions)


meh, I don't consider it wishy-washy, I consider that I'd rather not title myself and prefer to deal with each situation as it arises. I don't buck the tide at work because I want to keep my job. I don't believe that makes me a conformist though in the negative sense of the word, I believe it makes me sensible of keeping my job. The level of passion I feel about something determines my willingness to buck the tide and I don't believe that makes me an individualist. I believe it makes me passionate about things that are important to me and demonstrates a conviction I may hold.
I said from the beginning, I dont' care for the titles. I conformed to them for the purpose of the exercise.

ooh, bad Stew - you conformist you.

:shrug:

oh, did I mention Social Exchange (http://www.afirstlook.com/archive/socialexchange.cfm?source=archther)Theory?

[Kristiina]

Depends on who says 'You should' and how they say it. If it is somebody who I think knows a lot of what he is talking about, and isn't condescending, there is a good chance I'll listen. If not, I will probably smile and ignore him. I guess I tend towards passive-aggressive when it comes to responding to people or institutions I don't respect; I hate making any kinds of public fuss, and I hate arguing, especially with persons who do it aggressively.

In other words, I'm basically a coward. I pretend to go with the flow when somebody is looking. I buck the tide pretty often when I nobody is.

[Jamesaritchie]

I try to do the smart thing. I don't do anything just because someone says I should, but I don't spend much time cutting off my nose to spite my face, either. Both are dumb.

I try to analyze why someone says "You should or you shouldn't." I look at the facts, I look at how experts do whatever it is, and I decide whether it will work for me.

I am not, for example, going to put square tires on my car because someone says I should use round ones.

And I'm not going to single space my manuscripts just because someone tells me I have to double-space them.

There's a big difference between being a conformist, and doing dumb things in order to avoid being called a conformist.

[Danger Jane]

It all depends, man. Some things I really don't care about. I'll do what you tell me to do, fine. But if I don't respect the person who's ordering me around...I'll gripe about it. Mature, huh? The only person whose orders I don't grumble about are my best friend's. I don't know why, I just do everything she even kind of suggests.

[KSJaber]

We learned about conformity in English last year while studying transcendentalism, and it also appeared in my A.P. U.S. History class.

I think nonconformity is an important thing to have; with out it there wouldn’t be change, our way of looking at things wouldn’t evolve. For example (in U.S. History, only because that’s the class I was in when we discussed it.) Blacks would still be slaves, Women wouldn’t have the same rights as men, and Native Americans would still be persecuted. If people back then hadn’t ‘bucked against the tide’ things we look back at today, as a blemish in history, may never have changed.

Change, however, is a two way street. It can bring both good, and bad. That is something people need to remember; and who knows, the best thing to do may be to conform depending on each, individual, situation.

So, while I say I’m an individualist. I’m not going to turn something down because everyone else is doing it. If a new type of music pops up, that I like, or a new artist, I’m not going to say I hate them because everyone likes them. If I’m at a party, and I’m asked to do drugs, or something of that sort, it’s always a no. I consider myself individualist when having to pick from the two, but I’m not always going to be. Does that make sense?

[Azraelsbane]

Your very existence pisses me off.

Oh Peaches, you and your flattery! ;)

[Shady Lane]

I'm cold and calculating and realistic. So I'm like Esopha, but darker.

[Stew21]

I think it's most interesting to observe how conformists become very adept at rationalizing away all the indicators that they are conforming.

I would additionally posit that practicing knee-jerk reactive contrarianism does not make one an individualist. :)

I think it's rude and condescending to say that, doubly so when you add a smiley to it, like its a cute observation.
If you posted the thread to make yourself feel better for being an individualist (by whatever definition you gave it), fine. You don't have to step on people who feel differently than you do by claiming their explanations are "adept rationalizations" for their (obviously inferior)conformist behavior.

[Stew21]

Just speaking as I find.
I don't rattle easily.


Please carry on with your delightful thread.


eta: there are negative connotations that come with the title you gave "conformist" and there are positive ones of the title "individualist".

"look how the conformists rationalize away the indicators that they are conforming?" doesn't strike you as condescending?

[tjwriter]

connotations

Stew has it right there. You'd already decided where you wanted this conversation to go long before you hit the button to post the thread.

And I am one to not conform because I have different ideas. Often way different than most people I am around. However, that doesn't stop me from falling in line with people when they are doing what I agree and what I consider the smart thing. So, sometimes I conform.

Stew also has it right that this is not one side black and the other side white. There is a large variety in the shades that this topic carry. You just can't define it that simply.

[NeuroFizz]

Yes. Let's create yet another way to devise an either-or false dichotomy to pidgeon hole ourselves so some of us can come off as cool and superior to others in an anonymous web situation. Why not just ask the population who's a cool trend setter and who's an anal tit-sucker? And I'm sure, with a little tweaking, we can work it out so one lines up well with republicans and the other with democrats.

[Stew21]

Um, not to doubt you, but would you please show me in which # post I said that one was good and the other bad?



I never said that you said one was good and the other bad. I said the words carry connotations.

[CaroGirl]

And actually, if someone who chooses to live a life of conformity cleverly upholds that choice with vigor, I say more power to him/her. :)
I'm happy in my balance of conformity/individualism. Is that clever and vigorous enough, or do I need to be wittily and aggressively happy.

[My-Immortal]

I tend to conform with my individuality...

or is it that I buck the tide with my conformity...

No wait...I think I do a little of both depending on the situation and what I think works best for each situation. As others have said, I don't purposely go out of my way to do the opposite of others just for the sake of being an individual, nor do I conform on a regular basis because I can't think for myself. Is this wishy-washy? No. I like to think of it as being human.

But that's just me being me.

;)

Have a great day. (even you individualists....though not because I said so, of course!).

[Storm Surge]

I'm a conformist. Only the people I conform to don't exactly conform to the rest of society.

[tjwriter]

Hm!
So your contention is that, in fact, we all exist in some segment of the vast grey area between conformism and individuality?
Well, that's certainly a defensible position. :)

Basically. But Stew had already said that here.

I don't care for the terms assigned. There is a lot of gray area between individualist and conformist. To me they are opposite ends of a continuum. People can fall anywhere on the spectrum between conformist and individualist, and where they fall on that spectrum varies with the situation, topic, and who presents them with information or directives.
and then principles of social judgment theory come into play. Social judgment theory. (http://www.as.wvu.edu/~sbb/comm221/chapters/judge.htm)

But tons of people are saying the exact same thing. So while it may seem an undecided opinion, I do think it says we are human. (Thanks My-I!)

If you want to stir controversy, so be it.

[TrickyFiction]

I just don't have as much faith in my own ability as I used to. So, I think I tend to take advice more readily, these days... maybe even to a fault. I'll hear that I should never do this-or-that, then I'll see it in book where an author was more true to their voice than I probably am. I've been trying to write more casually, and not to avoid advice, but to take it in such a way that doesn't compromise my overall voice.

[NeuroFizz]

Hm!
So your contention is that, in fact, we all exist in some segment of the vast grey area between conformism and individuality?
Well, that's certainly a defensible position.
Because we react differently to various instances in our lives, some which we conform to, and some of which we buck, yes. This means we are both, and even our reaction can be one of degree (we might dress business casual as our job dictates, but maybe we include an article of clothing or two that is not considered b.c.). Does an individualist conform to the laws of the land? Does an individualist conform to clothing requirements in the workplace? Does a conformist join in when he/she sees someone stomping a puppy? And where to goth kids fit in all this? They certainly are not mainstream in their habit and appearance, but they sure as hell conform to a set of behavior and clothing standards within their subculture. So they are individualists in one context and conformists in another context.

There is no need to defend a stance against a false dichotomy.

[KTC]

I would additionally posit that practicing knee-jerk reactive contrarianism does not make one an individualist. :)

Jesus! How could you write that sentence without sucking on a big ole' wooden spoonful of Grey Poupon?

[Summonere]

Go with the flow, or buck the tide...?

When it comes to life in general, and writing in particular, would you describe yourself as a conformist or an individualist?
Not sure. Seems others will have to answer this for me, except they're not telling. So I'll give it an unhelpful whirl: I'll bet that I'm just like everybody else.


To put it another way, when someone starts a sentence with "You should..." , is your first response "Oh, okay" or "Says who??"
My first response seems to be, "I'll think about it." If I like what they say I "should," I'll likely do it. If I don't, I'll do something else.


When it comes to ... writing in particular, would you describe yourself as a conformist or an individualist?
Hey, aren't all good stories the same? Don't they conform to one very simple rule? Isn't that rule this:

Entertain. Above all else, entertain.

In that respect, I strive for conformity.

[KTC]

It's idiotic to pigeon-hole oneself into one of these fence-sides. If you say you're a non-conformist, suddenly you have to stop going to the grocery store, driving your car, paying your bills, cutting your grass...shit, almost everything you do has to come to an end. I know where I stand on most things. I'm crazy liberal...but to say I'm a non-conformist is just me being an asshole. Everybody conforms to something.

[javili]

I would additionally posit that practicing knee-jerk reactive contrarianism does not make one an individualist.

My experience is that it makes one unemployed. Fun though.

[StoryG27]

suddenly you have to stop going to the grocery store, driving your car, paying your bills, cutting your grass...shit, almost everything you do has to come to an end.

Hey, I was lazy and depressed when I stopped doing all those things. I'm better now. Ohhh, you were talking about. . .never mind.

This whole thread just seems like a big joke to me, so excuse me while I go have fun elsewhere.

[JoNightshade]

Seems like everyone's taking offense over semantics here. Replace individualistic and conformist with contrary and easygoing if you have an issue. I get the point. I'm gonna assume that the OP didn't intend offense and just answer the question as intended.

Apparently around the time I learned to talk, I got stuck on a phrase: "I can do it!" I shouted this whenever anyone tried to help me do something.

I am still in this phase. I am contrary and headstrong (individualistic if you please) by nature. Now that I'm married, this doesn't always work very well. So I'm trying to work on trusting and respecting my husband rather than assuming he's insulting my intelligence when he tries to help. :)

[DancingMaenid]

Well, when it comes to writing, I don't know how many times I've read something that said basically, "This technique is difficult and unlikely to work," and I've thought, 'Oh, I am so going to try this out and prove this guy wrong.'

That said, I'm also realistic. If I read the above sentence, I also read why the technique is difficult and think about what I could do to make it less so, and whether it's something I'm interested in trying at all.

[Esopha]

I think it's most interesting to observe how conformists become very adept at rationalizing away all the indicators that they are conforming.

Wait...wait...what?

Are you saying that people who chose to express themselves in ways that are similar to other's self-expression is conformity?

That's not true.

I firmly believe that everyone does exactly what he or she wants, but the fact is that no one is a total individual. So there are going to be similarities no matter what.

That said, although no one is a total individual, everyone is a unique person. Everyone is going to either 'go with the flow' or 'buck against the tide' at least once in their life, it just depends on what's worth it for that person.

What, then, does individuality mean to you? That the person steps away from what you believe is conformity? That's a contradiciton in itself, because everyone has different standards.

You also fail to address the issue of values, both of the family and friends of the individualist or conformist. Both will have a direct effect on the values of the person, even if they are an 'individualist.' There have been studies shown that the values of your parents, in particular, are passed onto the children. Does this count as 'conformity?'

What about, as someone mentioned earlier, political factions? Organizations, both liberal and conservative? Support groups? Classes? Work place cliques?

Does membership in any of these count as 'conformity?'

Because I can guarantee you that if it does, no one is an individualist.

So, asking people if they conform or not isn't the right question. You should be asking people how often they fight for what they believe in, since you seem to want to discuss assertive/passive behavior. This, I think, is the discussion that you wanted to take part in.

I'm sorry if I stepped on any toes with this little spiel, but this discussion has definitely struck a tender spot with me. I've said my piece, and I think it's best if I bow out now.

[aadams73]

*slaps forehead*

Barbarique, you aren't the poster formerly known as Lannie, are you? Because I'm getting a feeling...

(because when a poster is banned the same day another one shows up...)

[sassandgroove]

a)I fail to see what this has to do with writing novels. I think you started this in the wrong forum.
b) I conform when I want to and break out when I want to.

[My-Immortal]

a)I fail to see what this has to do with writing novels. I think you started this in the wrong forum.
b) I conform when I want to and break out when I want to.

But, if most people do this, wouldn't that make most people conformists?

;)

[Bubastes]

But aren't those things necessities? I mean, you can't get along without your car, or groceries. Conformity (or non-conformity) only applies when there's an option as to whether you want to go along or not... no? :)

Uh, is there an option for "Other people? What other people?" Just call me "Bubble Girl."

I do what I want. I may end up doing what others are doing, I may not. But other people were never the reference point in the first place.

[sassandgroove]

But, if most people do this, wouldn't that make most people conformists?

;)
No. I think that would make most people NORMAL.

I still don't know what this has to do with writing novels.

[javili]

I would additionally posit that practicing knee-jerk reactive contrarianism does not make one an individualist.

My experience indicates that it makes one unemployed. Fun though.

[RRK]

My characters buck the tide so I won't have to. I'm boringly obedient in real life.

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Xx|How did people take such offense to that one line? Did everyone think she was referring to people in the thread?

I agree with that. It's funny how conformists become adept at rationalizing it all away. A friend of mine's like that. He THINKS he's the only one in the school like him--with the same political views, with the same level of so-called "sensitivity", the only "smart" one. But of course, 90% of the school really is just like that. Most of them share the political views, most would consider themselves "sensitive", they all think they're smart or better in some way. And yet he loves rationalizing it all away...

Anyway. It's been proven to me time and time again that i just can't get along with everyday people. I'm best off with that "older" crowd who's found their voice, instead of 20-and-youngers who are obsessed with "fitting in".

When it comes to writing, though, buck the tide, buck the tide, buck the tide! Anything artistic, really. In fashion, they say, "Men are hard to design for because they can only where this, this, and this." I say, men are easy to design for because they've only EVER worn this, this, and this--there's a whole range we haven't even tapped into yet! And then, family and friends tell me I "should" do this, "should" do that. I "should learn to sew", I "should design for bigger women". I'm not listening to that. When it comes to art, I'm doing it for myself. I'm expressing what I believe, what I want, what I see. Doing what I want to be done. I'm not taking someone saying I "should" do something.

In writing, then, I'm told this or that's cliché, and it would take a very, very good writer to put a new spin on it. What do I want to do, then? Take that cliché thing and put a new spin on it and have it work. :D

I'll take advice. things I think really will help me better express myself. But when someone's telling me I should do something, out of their own inexperience, or own interests--nu-uh. If it's out of their inexperience, I'll stick with the professional's opinion on the matter, thank you. If it's for your own interests, for God's sake, then go out and do it yourself! I'm not doing this to please you. I'm not doing this so YOU can see what you want to see. i have my own agenda, and I've found my one place where I can go about fulfilling that.

I can't fully say I'm "conformist" or "individualist", I don't think. I THINK I'm individualist, but that's not to say i go against the flow JUST to go against the flow. It's to say I'm my own person, with my own beliefs, my own agenda, my own set of talent and crap and whatever else to give to the world. I'm not another cookie-cutter only put here for fodder. But I'm not the crazy, go change to square tires because everyone else uses round, kind of individualist. XD

There's my long winded answer. :tongue|xX

[Shadow_Ferret]

I write what I like to read. Screw all these labels.

[Soccer Mom]

I think it's most interesting to observe how conformists become very adept at rationalizing away all the indicators that they are conforming.

I would additionally posit that practicing knee-jerk reactive contrarianism does not make one an individualist. :)

I'm sorry, but I need to issue you a citation for excessive abuse of thesaurus. This is your warning.

Carry on.

[Scrawler]

To put it another way, when someone starts a sentence with "You should..." , is your first response "Oh, okay" or "Says who??"
I'm neither. My response would depend on the person offering the suggestion. I'd most likely answer, "Hmmm, that's an idea" and I'd give it some thought.

[KTC]

I'm sorry, but I need to issue you a citation for excessive abuse of thesaurus. This is your warning.

who has a sore ass?

[Stew21]

I write what I like to read. Screw all these labels.


are you sure, Ferret? I have a label maker. What would you like yours to say?

[Soccer Mom]

who has a sore ass?

I do and it's making me cranky.

[CaroGirl]

I'm neither. My response would depend on the person offering the suggestion. I'd most likely answer, "Hmmm, that's an idea" and I'd give it some thought.
Oh, oh! I do that too. And then I go and do whatever the heck I was gonna do anyway. I don't rock boats, I don't.

[Esopha]

Barbarique, I'm going to break my word so I can pop in and tell you that you have a wicked vocabulary.

[robeiae]

It's funny how conformists become adept at rationalizing it all away. A friend of mine's like that. He THINKS he's the only one in the school like him--with the same political views, with the same level of so-called "sensitivity", the only "smart" one. But of course, 90% of the school really is just like that. Most of them share the political views, most would consider themselves "sensitive", they all think they're smart or better in some way. And yet he loves rationalizing it all away...Eh. Everybody rationalizes their choices. It's the nature of the beast. People who you think are "individualists" do the exact same thing.

Of course, all of this is subjective silliness. What counts as conformity in the eyes of one may be seen as individuality in the eyes of others. And for my part, I rarely see a bigger group of conformists than a pack of rugged individualists. And of course, my observation is subjective, as well.

Beyond that, let me say this: Thoreau is an @ss.

(I'm so radical--I'm gonna go get a latte)

[KTC]

But does Thoreau have a sore ass? Latte isn't conformist? HA!

[Soccer Mom]

Much as it pains me to admit it, I actually say things like that without resorting to a thesaurus. (But I'll pay the ticket anyway.) :D

Hah! Paying unwarranted penalties? Caught you rationalizing conformity!

Neener-neener! :tongue

[robeiae]

But does Thoreau have a sore ass? Latte isn't conformist? HA!
How predictable of you...




:tongue

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Eh. Everybody rationalizes their choices. It's the nature of the beast. People who you think are "individualists" do the exact same thing.

Xx|But that's partially my point. Everyone "rationalizes" what they do to some extent. What I mean is people, whether they think they're individual or not, always come up with these false pretenses to make themselves feel better about conforming. Thus, they think they're being individual. But, they're not. This is mostly in the teen group, I've noticed, but it happens often enough outside of it as well.

Everyone's got something slighlty unique about them. It's just, what is it, does it show, do they deny it or admit it or flaunt it or push it down in an attempt to "fit in"...? You know. Then there are those who really are individual. A rare jewel, they are. :3|xX

[robeiae]

Then there are those who really are individual. A rare jewel, they are.
Are they? Who says they "really are"? They're no different.

[KTC]

There are no rare jewels in the land of people. None. Pretentious jewels? Perhaps. Rare. NONE.

[Toothpaste]

In high school I remember the goths or whathaveyous touting their individualism while at the same time finding safety in numbers and being goth in the exact same way as all the other goths (or whathaveyous) around them.

I think it is rare to find such a true individual, someone who is truly outside all elements of society. And when we do, we usually label them as "the crazy guy on the corner".

[Soccer Mom]

In high school I remember the goths or whathaveyous touting their individualism while at the same time finding safety in numbers and being goth in the exact same way as all the other goths (or whathaveyous) around them.

I think it is rare to find such a true individual, someone who is truly outside all elements of society. And when we do, we usually label them as "the crazy guy on the corner".

LOCK THREAD!

[Bubastes]

http://despair.com/individuality.html

[tjwriter]

Oh, MeowGirl, that's one of my favorites!

[JohnDavidPaxton]

I'm such a rebel I'm not even posting in this thread.

I'm terribly concerned, in hindsight, that I've made a horrible mistake. The story is fun and doing well with Beta's but I feel like I've done way, way too much for my first novel.

It's an urban fantasy. That's also a thriller. And a murder mystery. That, depending on how you see it, may or may not end on a cliffhanger.

Yeah. Basically if this gets published I'll have to eat my hat. Which doubly sucks because I don't have a hat. That means I'll have to BUY a hat and then CONSUME it.

I've promised all my friends and family that if, for whatever reasons the Gods have a sense of humor and publish this, I'll start off the next book with a vampire car chase. Or an army of lawngnomes. Whatever. Name your incredibly silly price.

[EriRae]

I'm a conformist. Period. No rationalization. I go with the flow. That's just me. In real life I'm just a boring cubicle-filling, phone-answering fool who wishes she could dump her life for a government-paid institution (jail or insane assylum...doesn't really matter to me) and write, write, write.

To quote Office Space:

Peter Gibbons: So I was sitting in my cubicle today, and I realized, ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life.
Dr. Swanson: What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah.
Dr. Swanson: Wow, that's messed up.

[javili]

Forget the tidebuckers and flowgoers...I want to know why there's a sword over Michael Jackson's head.

http://tinyurl.com/yscmov

[EriRae]

He's the stone...get it, the sword in the stone. Well...if you can call all that plastic "stone."

[Wolvel]

Well I've been pissing people off since I told my 9th grade english teacher I hate English (even wrote a two page journal entry why).

That's just my nature, now I may hear you out, but don't hold your breath for me to jump to your idea.

[javili]

Okay then, what's YOUR theory on the Damoclean Jacko thing?

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Forget the tidebuckers and flowgoers...I want to know why there's a sword over Michael Jackson's head.

http://tinyurl.com/yscmov
Xx|Waitaminute...! I was scrolling through this thread and saw my sig, here, and thought "Wait, I posted on page 3 and not again since...waitaminute!"

Well, at least you can tell it's a sword (objects are not my forte), but that's not Michael Jackson. :tongueBut I'll take the comparison as a compliment, as I think Michael's cute--nay, beautiful, oftentimes.

Are they? Who says they "really are"? They're no different.They're out there. But they are so very, awfully rare that cynics have taken to denying their existence altogether, and optimists, to believing all too strongly that they ARE out there. Kind of depends on one's definition of "individual", too.|xX

[KTC]

I'm beginning to conform to the idea of this idiotic thread.

[OddButInteresting]

I feel that my sense of individuality is defined by my conformity. I consider myself to be an individual, but I don't go out of my way to be different or "misunderstood".

I'm a very open person. I think those who get off on being misunderstood need to get a grip. Misunderstanding creates distance, and further alienates the individual from the masses.

In regards to writing, if you write solely for yourself then you're going to have a very fucking hard time getting published. You must keep your audience in mind at all times, which means grounding the reader in the familiar, whatever the genre. This applies to not just the setting, but the themes, underlying messages and the language utilised to convey them.

There needs to be an understanding between author and audience. If no-one gets what you're writing about, you're either pitching to the wrong demographic or it really is just, quite frankly, pretentious shite.

My point is: everyone knows how to dance, but a genuine talent will have a style of its own.

[seun]

So, what does all this have to do with writing novels?

[EriRae]

You got me, seun. All it did was make me incredibly depressed...

[OddButInteresting]

So, what does all this have to do with writing novels?

The way I look at it is if you refuse to conform, you haven't got what it takes to be a writer. If you want to sell, you need an audience that will invest in your work. If your work does not conform to a general or even narrow audience's taste, it's clearly too personal and vague (basically, pretentious claptrap) to promise huge sales.

[Stew21]

Time for a Communication Theory lesson: (Seriously, look it up: Infante, Rancer, Womack (1990.1993) Buiding Communication Theory.)
conformity is a change in behavior or belief toward a group as a result of real or imagined pressure. (look it up. it's true - its in my comm theory textbooks from college.).
The negative connotation comes from most people associating conformity with the first of the types, which is public compliance. (going along with something you don't believe).
The second of the types is private acceptance. Where the group really does change the belief a person holds. There is no need to justify it as there is no longer disonance between the person's belief system and that of the groups.
Finally, there are those folks who conform to groups not because the group changed them but because the group reinforces beliefs or behaviors the participants already have.
Conformist (as in the first type I mentioned is the one associated with not being gutsy, creative enough, or not having enough self-esteem to separate from a group that holds different beliefs.) That's the one that is intended as an insult.
Conforming to groups satisfies needs of the individual and the group.
sometimes resisting conformity has higher costs than gains. It's not worth it.
When it comes to life in general, and writing in particular, would you describe yourself as a conformist or an individualist?

To put it another way, when someone starts a sentence with "You should..." , is your first response "Oh, okay" or "Says who??"

(I think it goes without saying which side I come down on.) ;)
We all say "says who" in varying degrees. The credibility of the communicator is without question an active part of any persuasion.
The titles: conformist and individualist are not set up as opposite equals they are set up as good and bad based on the connotations of the word conform.

I think it's most interesting to observe how conformists become very adept at rationalizing away all the indicators that they are conforming.

:)
Public compliance is the type that would most often warrant the conformist become adept at rationalization because it goes against our self-concepts, and we have a need to validate our self-concepts - stop the disonance.

Seems like everyone's taking offense over semantics here. Replace individualistic and conformist with contrary and easygoing if you have an issue. :)
Those are easily accessible words. I think if she meant contrary and easygoing she could have said it.

But aren't those things necessities? I mean, you can't get along without your car, or groceries. Conformity (or non-conformity) only applies when there's an option as to whether you want to go along or not... no? :)
Necessities to you. Those are things that fall on your lattitude of acceptance in the social judgment of what consititutes a necessity. A lot of people would disagree. Just to name one large group: Amish.

Xx|
I can't fully say I'm "conformist" or "individualist", I don't think. I THINK I'm individualist, but that's not to say i go against the flow JUST to go against the flow. It's to say I'm my own person, with my own beliefs, my own agenda, my own set of talent and crap and whatever else to give to the world. I'm not another cookie-cutter only put here for fodder. But I'm not the crazy, go change to square tires because everyone else uses round, kind of individualist. XD

|xX It is possible to conform and still have your own beliefs, agenda, and creativity.

So, what does all this have to do with writing novels?

Absolutely nothing.


I'd also add people conform to groups because they feel acceptance and belonging is an important part of self-esteem. I'd venture to say that someone seeking out other "individualists" (if you can even really call it that) is looking for acceptance of a group - a group which already holds the same beliefs they do - which would fall into the third category - the one where the group reinforces what you already know.

WE're all conformists, except, like toothpaste said, the crazy guy on the corner.

[KTC]

**stands within his chosen field of conformity/non-conformity and, for the love of God, CLAPS**

Trishka for Prez!

[Stew21]

Brian:Please, please, please listen! I've got one or two things to say.
The Crowd: Tell us! Tell us both of them!
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd: Yes, we ARE all different!
Man in crowd: I'm not...
The Crowd: Sch!

[Danger Jane]

Originally Posted by Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1551247#post1551247)
I can't fully say I'm "conformist" or "individualist", I don't think. I THINK I'm individualist, but that's not to say i go against the flow JUST to go against the flow. It's to say I'm my own person, with my own beliefs, my own agenda, my own set of talent and crap and whatever else to give to the world. I'm not another cookie-cutter only put here for fodder. But I'm not the crazy, go change to square tires because everyone else uses round, kind of individualist. XD


I think everybody is their own person, with their own beliefs, their own agenda, their own set of talent and crap and whatever else to give to the world. Some people might be quieter about this, or more confused, or whatever that makes them "conformists" (maybe take this as Trish's meaning 1). But that doesn't make them "another cookie-cutter only put here for fodder." I guess this is where my philosophies and my faith cross but I can't believe that anyone exists for "fodder."

I'll go out on a limb and say that crazy square tire individualists are the insecure people, the ones who have to assert that they are different only because they're having their own personal identity crisis. It takes more security and maturity to conform and be happy with that (for half the population, I guess, vice versa for the other half) than to shout LOOK AT ME! I'M UNIQUE!!

I've had plenty of late-night identity crises about this very subject. Am I really unique? Am I really an individual? What does it matter, I'm interchangeable with the other 6 billion people. But it always comes back to no, I'm as much an individual as I want to be, just like everybody else. And that's fine.

Coming back to the idea of "fodder": I'll go out on another limb. Let's talk about....the girls on The Hills (which I have watched once). They're unique individuals, yes, they have their own gifts to give the world...it's squandered because even though they're not children anymore, they might as well be, because their parents still provide for absolutely everything. They're living at home even though they're not. Daddy pays for a chic apartment so they can all drink Starbucks while they get their daily pedicures to prepare for a night pf partying. That's a waste of their unique gifts and perspective--but that doesn't mean they don't have them.




God, can I sincerely apologize for this post? I guess that's what comes of avoiding a thread for too long :|

[larocca]

Buck the tide always, Barbarique.

(Yes, I do number my rejection letters in triple digits. Why do you ask?)

[javili]

I'm beginning to conform to the idea of this idiotic thread.

That doesn't worry you?

[OddButInteresting]

Pretentious claptrap has never generated huge sales? Do you remember a thing called Jonathan Livingston Seagull? :)

*cough* Never heard of it...

I suppose everything has a market, but the sizes will always vary. The smaller the market, the less likely it is that the sales will go haywire. It's all a matter of chance, and lucky timing.

[mscelina]

When it comes to life in general, and writing in particular, would you describe yourself as a conformist or an individualist?

To put it another way, when someone starts a sentence with "You should..." , is your first response "Oh, okay" or "Says who??"

(I think it goes without saying which side I come down on.) ;)

Both. As is everyone else.

If you take a realistic view of the writing world you have to be both. You have to be enough of an individualist to create your own unique stories and you have to conform enough to fit within the boundaries of the industry. Don't believe me? Still think you're a tide-bucker? (that just LOOKS wrong) Ask yourself these questions:

1. Do you follow basic grammatical rules?
2. Does your story have a beginning, middle, and end?
3. Do you think about the current market and what sells?
4. Do you research submission guidelines and then follow them?

Still think you're a conformist? Ask yourself these questions:

1. Do your characters exist elsewhere?
2. Do you write in someone else's voice?
3. Do you write the same story over and over?
4. Was that story someone else's first?

As for real life, it's very easy to claim individualism. However, there are still basic rules of society and existence that we all conform to--and must. Sure, I'm an odd bird. I thrive on that. I have created my niche in the world and I'm comfortable with it. But--I still conform. I still support my college football team, partially because my family did, partially because I went there. If I arbitrarily decided to support another team, I'm conforming to contrariness. *shrug* This entire discussion is moot from the get-go because what I consider individualism is conformism to someone else. Why worry about it? Just do what you're comfortable with as a person and as a writer, and let someone else apply the labels. In the long run, the only person anyone has to please is him or herself.

[Toothpaste]

there are, as always, two arguments going on in this thread. There is the initial argument, "Do you conform or not?" Then there is the "does conforming equal something negative". I think the reason some people are getting quite emotionally charged in this thread is because questions like "Do you Conform" tend to be leading, and if you answer yes to it, it is like saying "I am a mindless drone just doing whatever anyone tells me" which as was stated earlier by Stew, is not actually the definition of conformity.

My point is. . . I'm not sure. I just got my wisdom teeth out. I'm on meds. I thought I had a point. Maybe there is one in there somewhere. I guess my point is . . . what is the point of asking the question in the first place? Genuine question, Barbarique.

[mscelina]

or maybe just a writer.

Food for thought. :)

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Xx|One thing I've noticed is this thread is entirely dependent upon everyone's definition of "individual" and "conformist". :tongue That's probably no revelation, but seriously, I'm pretty sure 90% of the arguments come from different definitions, here.

I fail to see the point of arguing it, I guess. :Shrug:

It is possible to conform and still have your own beliefs, agenda, and creativity.
Not the way I define "conformity", it's not.

Which is my point.

Oh well. :tongue|xX

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

A distinct possibility. For instance, mention was made earlier of the Amish people. Well, are the Amish to be considered as "conformists" (within their own tightly cloistered community) or "individualists" (relative to the broader surrounding society in which they exist?)

Depends on your perspective, I imagine. :)

Xx|Yes. Perspective and definition. Definition is, say, to just use round tires (extreme example, but you get it) like everyone else, or is there a different kind of "conforming"? Following trends, being "brainwashed" by friends/society/media/school/so-called "authority figures"/whatever else. And does individuality really equate to being contrary to everything? That kind of thing... :)|xX

[Stew21]

Xx|One thing I've noticed is this thread is entirely dependent upon everyone's definition of "individual" and "conformist". :tongue That's probably no revelation, but seriously, I'm pretty sure 90% of the arguments come from different definitions, here.

I fail to see the point of arguing it, I guess. :Shrug:
you quoted me here. "It is possible to conform and still have your own beliefs, agenda, and creativity."

Not the way I define "conformity", it's not.

Which is my point.

Oh well. :tongue|xX Then you're not using the right definition. There is a true definition. I posted it. conformity is a change in behavior or belief toward a group as a result of real or imagined pressure. And you sort of proved my original point for disagreeing with the titles assigned. Conformity does have negative connotations because people assume the only conformity is public compliance.
And the point to arguing it, well, asking people to jump into a category so ill defined and then making comments about how adept they are at rationalizing their conformity seemed a huge fallacy for the sake of ego and fitting yourself into a group of individualists seems sort of silly, doesn't it? Individualists! Band together! Look at the group of us" doesn't strike you as ridiculous?

A distinct possibility. For instance, mention was made earlier of the Amish people. Well, are the Amish to be considered as "conformists" (within their own tightly cloistered community) or "individualists" (relative to the broader surrounding society in which they exist?)
Of course they are conforming to their own group. The point was you mentioned cars and grocery stores being necessities. Your social judgment of necessity is different than theirs. So not necessities to everyone. And yes, they conform to the laws and beliefs of the group to which they belong. As I mentioned in the reasons people conform and the ways people conform, it is for group and individual reasons, and it isn't just public compliance, sometimes their beliefs really do follow that of the group - private acceptance.


Xx|Yes. Perspective and definition. Definition is, say, to just use round tires (extreme example, but you get it) like everyone else, or is there a different kind of "conforming"? Following trends, being "brainwashed" by friends/society/media/school/so-called "authority figures"/whatever else. And does individuality really equate to being contrary to everything? That kind of thing... :)|xX

there are different kinds of conformity: again. public compliance, private acceptance, and the other set is that the individual already holds the same beliefs as the group so conformity to the group reinforces one's already held beliefs.

[KTC]

**sees a tunnel at the end of the light**

[Stew21]

**sees a tunnel at the end of the light**

well get a whole big group of us to conform to your belief that there's a tunnel at the end of the light and we can bounce to it together.

[KTC]

SHUT IT DOWN.

[Soccer Mom]

No! Don't go into the light! Come baaaaaaaack!




isn't it time for kittens in poptart boxes?

[Stew21]

well we already did the monty python quote. so yes, box up a kitten and leave it on the thread's doorstep.

[EriRae]

Hey, Stew21...were you at the U of I Workshop this summer? Directing one of the classes? Not that I was there, but I did receive the literature, and your pic looks familiar.

**Hijacks b/c Monty Python wasn't enough**

[Stew21]

i was not at the U of I workshop this summer. What was the workshop on?
I look familiar, eh?

you look like Freddie Mercury. ;)

[javili]

Well, are the Amish to be considered as "conformists" (within their own tightly cloistered community) or "individualists" (relative to the broader surrounding society in which they exist?)

Good one.

And the corollary: are bohemians and alternatives and counterculturists really non-conformists, or just slaves to a particular fashion and the wide appeal of differentness?

[Stew21]

Good one.

And the corollary: are bohemians and alternatives and counterculturists really non-conformists, or just slaves to a particular fashion and the wide appeal of differentness?

i'm pretty sure we covered this.

[auntybug]

Well...Pffft...I was gonna get on & write something funny but y'all are gettin' serious like in here.....I'm going back to the caberet. Oh wait...Jay's serious in there too. Damn...back to my WIP then! http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/happy093.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Then you're not using the right definition. There is a true definition. I posted it. conformity is a change in behavior or belief toward a group as a result of real or imagined pressure. And you sort of proved my original point for disagreeing with the titles assigned. Conformity does have negative connotations because people assume the only conformity is public compliance.
And the point to arguing it, well, asking people to jump into a category so ill defined and then making comments about how adept they are at rationalizing their conformity seemed a huge fallacy for the sake of ego and fitting yourself into a group of individualists seems sort of silly, doesn't it? Individualists! Band together! Look at the group of us" doesn't strike you as ridiculous?

there are different kinds of conformity: again. public compliance, private acceptance, and the other set is that the individual already holds the same beliefs as the group so conformity to the group reinforces one's already held beliefs.

Xx|For heaven's sake, as writers, here, we should all know by now that there's not such thing as "one definition", as the exact same words can be interpreted in vastly different ways. ;)

To me, the definition you just posted implies that to have your own beliefs, agenda, et cetera, would be the precise opposite of a "change in behavior or belief toward a group as a result of real or imagined pressure".

I never said I didn't. In fact, I said I did find that ridiculous. I don't know about anyone else in this thread, but I didn't ask people to say whether they found themselves "individualist" or "conformist", and when I agreed that people can be so adept at rationalizing flat out not thinking for themselves, I wasn't talking about people in the thread.

Jeez. There's a touchy mood in this thread. XD|xX

[Stew21]

Xx|
To me, the definition you just posted implies that to have your own beliefs, agenda, et cetera, would be the precise opposite of a "change in behavior or belief toward a group as a result of real or imagined pressure".

XD|xX
one more time.
TWO kinds of conformity:
one where you agree to go along with something you don't believe. You don't want to do it but due to pressures feel you have to. This is the one most people think of, negatively, regarding conforming.
the other is one where the group truly changes your beliefs. You become convinced the group is right and not only comply with the changes in behavior or belief, but truly believe it is correct. It is not just going along because you feel you need to it really is that you have changed internally.

and the third not really lumped with the others because it doesn't require change, is they already hold the same beliefs as you so it takes little persuasion or pressure to conform to the group.

In fact, I said I did find that ridiculous. I don't know about anyone else in this thread, but I didn't ask people to say whether they found themselves "individualist" or "conformist", and when I agreed that people can be so adept at rationalizing flat out not thinking for themselves, I wasn't talking about people in the thread.

you find it ridiculous, fine. We agree. So why are you arguing this point? YOu asked why people were arguing. I told you. And it isn't really an argument, more of a discussion.
I never said YOU said anything. I didn't say you were talking about people in the thread either. But people not thinking for themselves is only ONE KIND of conformity. And only one kind of comformity requires "being adept at rationalizations". I was just trying to make that clear.


I wasn't being touchy by the way, just giving some facts.

[CaroGirl]

YOu asked why people were arguing. I told you. And it isn't really an argument, more of a discussion.
This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction. I paid for an argument.

[Stew21]

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction. I paid for an argument.


would you like your money back? How 'bout a label?

Trish, not as contrary as she looks.

[CaroGirl]

would you like your money back? How 'bout a label.

Trish, not as contrary as she looks.
Okay Trish-not-as-contrary-as-she-looks. You can keep the money if I can have a label.

[Stew21]

ok. let me find my label-maker. what do you want it to say? go ahead. be an individual. you dont' have to go with the crowd. what do YOU want it to say?

[CaroGirl]

ok. let me find my label-maker. what do you want it to say? go ahead. be an individual. you dont' have to go with the crowd. what do YOU want it to say?
Oh geez. What did everyone else pick? What does your label say? What label do you think I should pick?

[Stew21]

You labelled me LABEL, remember? Or did SoccerMom do that? I can't remember.

TJ Writer is sweet-individualist or something like that.
Midnight Muse is Conforming Non-conformist with Individualist Rising
SoccerMom is Sore Conform-assed.

[Soccer Mom]

You called?

Oh, sorry. I heard my label. carry on.

[CaroGirl]

You labelled me LABEL, remember? Or did SoccerMom do that? I can't remember.
Yes, that was me. Can I be labelled a Humanist Conforming non-conformist with Ecological leanings? Or would your label-maker promptly explode?

[Stew21]

it may explode but we can abbreviate.
HumConnonConEcoLean work for you?

[CaroGirl]

it may explode but we can abbreviate.
HumConnonConEcoLean work for you?
Hm, sounds a bit like a cut of beef, but okay.

[Stew21]

it does sort of sound like a new category of organic meat product, doesn't it.
how about Eco-leaning Humanist CNC?

eer...that sounds sort of disease-ish.

[CaroGirl]

it does sort of sound like a new category of organic meat product, doesn't it.
how about Eco-leaning Humanist CNC?

eer...that sounds sort of disease-ish.
Drop the CNC and I'm in! Conforming and non-conformist sort of cancel each other out, don't they?

[sassandgroove]

I still say this thread is in the wrong forum.

[tjwriter]

:ROFL:

I love you crazy people.

:crazy:

[CaroGirl]

It is getting a bit...tangential, no? And I just remembered. I have a job!

[Stew21]

Eco-leaning Humanist.


you got it.


how individual of you.

[KTC]

Econo-Pack Humanoid what?

[EriRae]

i was not at the U of I workshop this summer. What was the workshop on?
I look familiar, eh?

you look like Freddie Mercury. ;)

:) Yep

Poetry. Hmm...sorry :p I'm going on 48 hrs w/ no sleep, here, so eyes very bleary...

[EriRae]

Man...haven't my attempts to hijack this thread stopped ya'll from fighting over the label-maker yet? And I believe you have my stapler...to go back to my earlier post...

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Xx|Oh, nevermind. It's not worth it. :ROFL:

Anyway. Label me...Multi-Artistic Cat Lover Lolita. MACLL or something, if you must. :) Plzkthnx. XD|xX

[javili]

sn't "the wide appeal of differentness" just empty contrarianism?
I just call it adolescence.

'm pretty sure we covered this.
would you like your money back?


I don't need any steenking labels. I have a barcode tattoo.

[Toothpaste]

as long as people label me fabulous, I'm good.

[Danger Jane]

I'm just a badass

[javili]

Sure.

http://mexipost.com/pix/dangerjane.jpg