X-rated to G: a poll

[Death Wizard]

I'm been thinking a lot lately (and also talking to a lot of people) about sex and violence in fantasy. My series has a lot of both, sometimes graphically described. But at least in terms of Harry Potter, YA fantasy seems to be amazingly popular. I'm curious to see how writers feel about this. So, here's a poll.

[Plot Device]

I'm not sure of your question. I voted "R" as my upper-tolerance limit. But my PREFERENCE is "PG-13." Should I have voted "PG-13"??

I absolutely LOVED the movie "Children of Men" (didn't read the book, sorry). And that was a solid "R"-rating. And I wouldn't have changed a thing. But I am far more comfortable in "PG-13" territory and I view an "R" as an exception for me.

[ShapeSphere]

I voted PG-13. Violence is okay, as long as it's not over the top. I always prefer understated menace to a bloodbath. Writers who describe sex scenes usually fail abysmally. There are many instances, but I recall a scene from Chandler's Playback. It was excruciatingly bad, which is a shame as he's an awesome author.

Digression time. People like to read about or watch violence, but don't want to be a part of it. Gangster movies are popular and the world of brutality fascinates individuals who live their lives in the comfort zone.

In the 80's I went to many football (soccer) matches in England. Lots of hooliganism, which I was not involved in. People act tough and claim they can handle lots of aggro, but I find when violence comes directly into their lives, they freeze or run away. Only a few hardcore souls were really up for it.

Most people like sex, but I'm sure they'd rather be doing it than reading about it.

[My-Immortal]

Lately, I've been reading and writing mostly in the "R" range, but I'm okay with the other categories as well. It depends on the audience. I have written "G" material for my kids, but mostly I fall between PG-13 and R.

[Azraelsbane]

I usually write R. Sex between certain characters is an important concept in my series, but in about 530k there are a total of 3 somewhat explicit scenes. Where I end up above R at times is in terms of violence. The last book in my series is extremely violent, but I try to make sure there's a reason for everything done. People don't just ride down everyone in their path hacking off limbs left and right.

I prefer my fantasy R in the sex category, but I don't mind a little bit of X in the violence, as long as it fits with the story.

[Danger Jane]

I said R because I think it really depends on the story. I think my WIPs would fit in the PG 13 range. But I wouldn't die if I read an R rated book.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Given the choice, I'll always take X (NC-17). Everything I write is X, for both sex and extreme violence. When I pick up a fantasy novel, I expect blood and body parts to fly at some point, preferably in a very twisted way. Just like when I pick up a romance I expect the sex to be explicit. It's hard to find well-written sex scenes in fantasy, and if the writer can't do it well, I'd really rather they just shut the door all together. So explicit sex is an extra bonus in fantasy, not a requirement (it is a requirement in my own work, but not as a reader).

Yes, I do search out the more hard-core books in everything I read. I like being shocked.

[MelodyO]

I don't mind reading either, when done by someone who's really good at it. There's nothing more cringe-inducing than reading a book where someone is getting her hands cut off with a meat cleaver, and all you can think about is the ridiculous writing. Serial killer: "Lisa, what kind of gentleman do you think I am?" ::chops off hand:: Lisa: The pain was incredible! Then she passed out.

Why, yes, I was reading a novel from the bargain bin in Zeller's tonight, thank you for asking. :)

[Higgins]

I'm not sure of your question. I voted "R" as my upper-tolerance limit. But my PREFERENCE is "PG-13." Should I have voted "PG-13"??

I absolutely LOVED the movie "Children of Men" (didn't read the book, sorry). And that was a solid "R"-rating. And I wouldn't have changed a thing. But I am far more comfortable in "PG-13" territory and I view an "R" as an exception for me.

Children of Men was the sort of thing that shows why one needs to have at least R levels of violence from time to time. I LOVED it.

[Bartholomew]

I voted X because if it's well written, I'll read it.

[Death Wizard]

Wow! No PG or G yet. That surprises me. But in a good way.

[OddButInteresting]

If it's relevant to the material, I'm fine with it. However, if a writer uses the Frank Miller approach (basically the mentality that more sex and violence will emphasise its adult nature), it feels forced and I find it difficult to buy into.

If a character is capable of rape, and is placed in a situation where he can fulfill his depraved fantasies, then by all means go to town. There's no need to describe it in visceral detail though, as a lot of the underlying meaning will drown in the general shock factor of the event.

Don't force it in there if it doesn't fit. And even if it fits, check to see if it stands out too much. If something stands out more than is necessary, it distracts the reader from the general message of the story.

[glutton]

R, I'd say. I might be pushing that when one of my heroines gets her guts spilled, but luckily... they're usually tough enough to withstand getting their guts spilled, which to me seems to mitigate things a bit...

[DarthIggy]

My WIP probably falls in the R category for violence and PG-13 in terms of sex.

Most of the sex revolves around the budding romance of two of the main characters and remains nothing more than flirting and lust through most of the story. When they finally get around to "doing it", I leave a lot to the imagination, more teasing and leading the reader than spelling it out. Though it is written as PG-13, the reader can easily turn it into R or X according to their imagination.

This serves two purposes; First, it makes the scene as titliating and/or as explicit as the reader wants it to be. Second, it masks the fact that I really can't write detailed sex without it sounding like a letter to Penthouse. Hehe.

[III]

Non-gratuitous "R". As long as it's pertinent to the story and true to the characters, show me the real-life dirt.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I'm in the non-gratuitious "R" camp as well, though I can go to "X" if it works in the story. I just don't want it for its own sake.

[auntybug]

I like watching movies w/ my daughter so PG 13. Even those are stretched too far sometimes. She'll cover her eyes at kissing....I like the "closed door" thing.

Without going too much on a soap box - things have gotten outta hand. I wanted to buy the movie "Big" - I guess I have seen it on regular TV for too long - I didn't realize the 12 year old said "F***" and there was a "feeling up" scene........ I think its a kids movie & that was not necc...

Oddly we're de-sensitized to most violence.... blow away 50 men - just don't shoot the dog!!!

[Richard White]

I don't mind "reading" up to an R rating, although gratuitous anything is boring. I find when people concentrate on something like that, whether it's violence or sex (books or movies, it doesn't matter), usually the plot suffers and I grow bored. To me, Alien was a hell of a lot better horror movie than any of the Saw/Hostel ilk of movies making the rounds these days.

I "write" PG-13 99.9% of the time. No real reason. I'm just not interested in writing sex scenes or going into graphic detail about wounds and such.

Just my style.

[ChaosTitan]

I voted X because if it's well written, I'll read it.

What he said. :)

As for what I write, I've strayed into R territory, but not yet into X (at least, I don't think so). I write graphically at times, but try to choose my words carefully so the descriptions never come across as gratuituous. Just meaningful.

And yet, it's still a very subjection question. Something I read and go "beh, PG-13 max," could be interpreted by someone else as R or X. Everyone's sensibilities are different.

That said, it's a great thread, Jim.

[~grace~]

I concur about the non-gratuitous "R."

That said, I'll read up to R (I'd probably read X if the story was good enough) but so far I've only written up to PG-13. I still kind of have this, "don't write it if you wouldn't want your mother to read it" thing going on in my head.

...not that she reads fantasy anyway.

[Death Wizard]

What he said. :)

As for what I write, I've strayed into R territory, but not yet into X (at least, I don't think so). I write graphically at times, but try to choose my words carefully so the descriptions never come across as gratuituous. Just meaningful.

And yet, it's still a very subjection question. Something I read and go "beh, PG-13 max," could be interpreted by someone else as R or X. Everyone's sensibilities are different.

That said, it's a great thread, Jim.


Thanks much for saying so, Kelly! I have to admit that I'm pleasantly surprised by the results. I hope the general readership out there mirrors this poll.

[Monkey]

Ok, so maybe I'm a freak, but I actually prefer sex to violence. I mean, if I had to choose only one to have in my life, I know what I would pick! If my kids had to see one or the other, I'd choose for them to see sex. Why? Because violence sucks, and I hope they never have to go through anything as horrific as what is common in movies these days, while sex *rocks* and I hope they grow up to have lots of it. I'm not saying that they will emulate what they see, I'm just saying that sex is a natural part of a happy life and violence isn't.

:banana: Go sex!!! Yay!!:banana:

(Sorry, your description of PG-13 bugged me )

:rolleyes:

Anyway, I chose "R". I don't mind sex scenes (obviously) and understand that most fantasy written for adults is going to have its fair share of violence. My own writing is probably more PG-13, but my comfort zone is different for what I read as opposed to what I write.

[sunandshadow]

Um, how about 'gimmie the sex, leave out the violence'?

Edit: I notice everyone is giving stats on their own writing. My own is exclusively R or X, rated almost entirely for sex although I do have a premeditated execution in one story, a person getting an ornamental scarification cut into their arm, and some mage duels and fistfights that so no serious harm.

[Death Wizard]

Ok, so maybe I'm a freak, but I actually prefer sex to violence. I mean, if I had to choose only one to have in my life, I know what I would pick! If my kids had to see one or the other, I'd choose for them to see sex. Why? Because violence sucks, and I hope they never have to go through anything as horrific as what is common in movies these days, while sex *rocks* and I hope they grow up to have lots of it. I'm not saying that they will emulate what they see, I'm just saying that sex is a natural part of a happy life and violence isn't.

:banana: Go sex!!! Yay!!:banana:

(Sorry, your description of PG-13 bugged me )


:rolleyes:

Anyway, I chose "R". I don't mind sex scenes (obviously) and understand that most fantasy written for adults is going to have its fair share of violence. My own writing is probably more PG-13, but my comfort zone is different for what I read as opposed to what I write.

Actually, I can't disagree with anything you've said. I should have left out the word especially. I was just trying to mimic the way in which I believe the rating systems are tilted.

[Monkey]

Actually, I can't disagree with anything you've said. I should have left out the word especially. I was just trying to mimic the way in which I believe the rating systems are tilted.


You're right, there. The censors and movie raters will allow on-screen death all day if it isn't gory, but you have a woman take her shirt off, and they get all in a tizzy. Like kids have never seen breasts. :rolleyes:

[C.bronco]

I voted pg-13 pretty much because that's what I wrote, and the "13" rating would most likely be from violence or being too scary for some of the younger kids.
I'm not suggesting anyone else restrict themselves to what I write, nor would I want anyone to, ever.

[Sassee]

How about another option - I read it all depending on the tone of the writing and how it fits into the story. I don't have a preference for levels of violence/sex, I don't specifically hunt out mild or hardcore writing, I just read what's in the book and take it how the author meant it. Ninja bunny is your typical desensitized young American, so I have a strong stomach despite my over-active imagination :p

(Although, if it's just gratuitous violence/sex and isn't done tastefully, I won't read it.)

[Death Wizard]

You're right, there. The censors and movie raters will allow on-screen death all day if it isn't gory, but you have a woman take her shirt off, and they get all in a tizzy. Like kids have never seen breasts. :rolleyes:

I agree. Especially about the shirt thing. (Ha!)

[Death Wizard]

To this point, 40 out of 56 chose R-rated or above. Again, I'm surprised! I myself voted R, though like Chaos Titan said, one person's R could be another's XXX. For instance, I rate my series R, but my wife believes it goes beyond that -- at least a few times.

[Death Wizard]

Final tally: PG-13 and above 62, PG and below 1.

That blows my mind ... in a good way.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I didn't vote. I'd need some examples of each so I know what we're talking about.

What's with these polls closing so early that I can't get a vote in, anyway?

[ct bliss]

"The Beast that was Max" is as raunchy as I'll go.

[J. R. Tomlin]

How about give me violence but leave out the sex, ESPECIALLY the S/M variety. *shudders*

[TsukiRyoko]

I'm a blood and sex fan, so it takes an awful lot to bother me.

BTW- if there's ever a movie that bothers me because of too much sex/violence, THAT'S the movie your kids shouldn't watch.

[Simple Living]

PG. Period. If I wanted sex, violence and vulgar language, I'd watch the news.

New writers, especially, tend to use far too much of all three. They aren't thinking of their publisher or readers. They're gratuitous in the overuse of them and call it "adult" or "edgy" and are likely not going to be published. It's not what the majority of major publishing house readers want to read.

There are markets for it, but they aren't mainstream.

P.S. I didn't vote PG-13 because the PG-13 shows and movies of today were the rated R movies of yesterday. Gratuitous, vulgar language is the easy way out. It's an excuse not to write more intelligently. There are ways to convey the emotion without sounding like a sailor.

[Death Wizard]

PG. Period. If I wanted sex, violence and vulgar language, I'd watch the news.

New writers, especially, tend to use far too much of all three. They aren't thinking of their publisher or readers. They're gratuitous in the overuse of them and call it "adult" or "edgy" and are likely not going to be published. It's not what the majority of major publishing house readers want to read.

There are markets for it, but they aren't mainstream.

P.S. I didn't vote PG-13 because the PG-13 shows and movies of today were the rated R movies of yesterday. Gratuitous, vulgar language is the easy way out. It's an excuse not to write more intelligently. There are ways to convey the emotion without sounding like a sailor.

I respect your opinion, but I think you're oversimplifying. Stephen King writes violence, and see where it's gotten him. John Updike writes sex, and he's considered one of the great novelists of the 20th century. Anything done poorly is an excuse not to write more intelligently. But sex and violence have their place.

[lauram]

I hate poorly written sex scenes, gratuitous or otherwise; it seems that most of the time they don't add anything to the plot.
I'm currently working on a fantasy novel that has no sex and no romantic interests. I feel that it isn't necessary to this story at all. I think some writers add sex and love interests because "everyone else does it".

Just my thoughts...

[Death Wizard]

I hate poorly written sex scenes, gratuitous or otherwise; it seems that most of the time they don't add anything to the plot.
I'm currently working on a fantasy novel that has no sex and no romantic interests. I feel that it isn't necessary to this story at all. I think some writers add sex and love interests because "everyone else does it".

Just my thoughts...

A poorly written sex scene is no better, or worse, than any poorly written scene, in my opinion. You're right in the fact that just throwing sex into something doesn't automatically make it interesting.

[Dusk]

I'd have chosen X - I'll read anything, from G to X - but I had a hard time answering, the way this poll is worded. My answer would depend on what was appropriate for a particular story, and the sex issue is different for me from the violence issue. I'm inclined to feel that fantasy has become much too violent, and that authors use routine maiming and death as an easy way to evoke emotional reactions from readers. (Yes, George R. R. Martin, I'm thinking of you.) On the other hand, I have to go to small presses and amateur fiction any time I want to read gay SF/F with sex scenes (or even gay SF/F without sex scenes but where the love story is central), so I wish that major press publishers would offer more of that. I don't know whether the situation with heterosexual SF/F is any better.

Having said all that, I'm perfectly happy to read a G-rated SF/F story. Some of my favorite novels fall into that category.

My own stories tend to be PG-13 for violence, or R for sex and/or violence.