Fantasy Paradigms

[nandu]

Whenever I read fantasy, I can't help feeling that the writers restrict the field very much: it's mostly modelled on European folklore. Maybe because most of them come from Anglo-Saxon backgrounds.

There are a million worlds out there. For example, I come from the state of Kerala in Southern India: till very recently, we had a lot of woodlands filled with local goblins and fairies. The fantasy world used to coexist with the real one. (Of course, the woodlands are still there, but I think all the fairies have been chased away by marauding tourists!);)

Just as a sample, here are two of the denizens of the night:

Yakshi: This fearsome lady lives on top of a palm tree, and entices unwary travellers into her abode in the guise of a beautiful woman. The palm tree transforms itself into a beautiful mansion. Once atop the tree, the hapless traveller is munched up by the Yakshi.

Gandharvan: This handsome spirit sings beautifully and seduces nubile young women. The woman retains her virginity, but she cannot marry. The Gandharvan will kill whoever approaches her with amorous intent.

We have scores more.

This is from one remote corner of the world. My point is, there must be millions of such fantasy beings apart from Elfs, Goblins, Ogres etc. if we scan the globe. Why can't we use different fantasy paradigms?

Nandu.

[The Grift]

Indeed. So write it. Use those different paradigms.

But beside that, I think if you look hard enough you will see that most of the mythos from various cultures can be broken down into much more basic archetypes, many of which transcend both time and distance to reappear again and again in various myths, fairytales and folktales from across the globe. A rose, or syren, by any other name...

As far as modern fantasy novels, I would challenge that it owes as much to its own incestuousness as it does the "old" Western European myths.

But all of that is moot. If you think there is a mythos out there which needs to be exploited, do it. Write it and write it well and it will find an audience. At least that's what Miss Snark told me before she abandoned us all to the wolves.

[nandu]

Indeed. So write it. Use those different paradigms.

Thank you. I think I will.

I was extremely doubtful of getting a story published in any magazine in the Western world as my background was entirely different. But I managed to get one in Dark Recesses magazine, that too a horror story with a Kerala background (I introduced a character from USA as a sort of bridge across cultural differences). After that my confidence has picked up.

One problem is how much to explain. Elves, Goblins, Pixies etc. are familiar to anyone in the world who reads fantasy literature. By the Curriculum Vitae of my creepies would have to be presented in full: otherwise I feel any Western audience would be totally lost.

I already have a vague story idea knocking about in my head about an introverted boy, an old house with almost endless corridors, an old lady dying (who might be a witch) and a backyard that seems to stretch endlessly into the darkness...

Nandu.

[Evaine]

Sounds interesting.
I'd love to read fantasy based on other cultures - I'd even love to write some, but my knowledge is pretty sketchy outside the Western European myths.
I was delighted when I first came across Barry Hughart's Bridge of Birds, set in Ancient China, for instance, but there's not a lot else where that came from.

[dclary]

"Are there muggles and house elves? If not, I ain't readin' it"
-- signed,
Every child in America.

[DraperJC]

Spot on about the Muggles. However, if you take a look at just about everyone's submission guidelines you will almost without exception find this line:

'We want fresh and original stories, preferably from lands outside the stereotypical "medieval European" setting.'

A few years ago there seemed to be a rush of fantasy books set in other places. Specifically, The Iron Fortress (Russia) and The Prince of Ayodha (India). [I'm totally guessing on those titles, the first book had that snow owl on the cover and was written by Somebody Ash]

[JBI]

:p I am trying to use an untapped well for the basis of my story. Not going to say much, since someone may borrow it, though I will throw another possibility into the mix; What if someone decided to try using Arabian or Persian lore in their stories? Just an idea, though you can take stuff from the 1001 Arabian Nights and books like that. Would be interesting to see that turned into somewhat of a novel/series. Paulo Coelho's Alchemist came close, but really didn't divulge to deep into it.

[laurel29]

Nandu,

I think it is a wonderful idea to use myths, creatures or settings from different cultures in your stories. I enjoy reading myths and stories from countries other than my own so it would be far more interesting to me.

I have written a few short stories that have some Japanese elements in them, but I'm nervous about them since I am not Japanese and my experience with the culture is limited. I'm borrowing certain things, but not necessarily being faithful to the original image. That might bother people who recognize the roots.

Besides borrowing or basing stories on other cultures folklore I also think it's interesting to study other cultures because it helps you set up a more realistic fanatasy one. Sometimes I feel like some of my stories have been too similar to my own culture - they don't feel alien enough to me, because my characters are too close to my own cultural standards. I'm trying to understand how they would think and I think the more you can see how other cultures interpret things differently the easier it is to find that other mindset. I don't really know how to express what I'm trying to say there so I'll come back to it later.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Whenever I read fantasy, I can't help feeling that the writers restrict the field very much: it's mostly modelled on European folklore. Maybe because most of them come from Anglo-Saxon backgrounds.

There are a million worlds out there.
My current novel that being submitted to agents is set in a world in which ALL mythological beliefs co-exist. Although this current novel only uses Norse, Greek, and some Native American myths, I also mentions Indian (as in India) and other myths.

In the WIP, which is the next in the series, I'm starting with some Icelandic myths, particularly the huldufolk and the 4 Guardians, but again plan on adding other myths from other countries as the storyline progresses.

But the reason as I see it, we, as Americans and Europeans, are raised on Norse, Greek, and Roman mythology so much that we feel comfortable with them. We feel we can write about them with authority. Many of us have never, or hardly ever, been exposed to Middle Eastern, or Eastern myths. Thus, we don't want to come off as uninformed when we do write about them.

Although simple research can make experts of us all.

[nandu]

Nandu,

I think it is a wonderful idea to use myths, creatures or settings from different cultures in your stories.

Actually, not much different for me, because I belong to that culture!:D But I get what you are saying. It might be refreshingly new for Western readers - or it might prove too alien.

Anyway, these fantasy creatures are right out of my childhood: there was one Gandharvan rumoured to be living in our backyard. And there was this strange owl-like bird (I don't know its English name) which was known as the "Cock of Kala" (Kala is the God of Death). It used to make an eerie cry exactly at twilight which literally sent shivers down your spine: it was supposedly the harbinger of the God of Death.

Nandu.

[veinglory]

I think there are fantasies using other myths lurking around. I see Australian and NZ stuff occassionally although I think it could be used more.

[Sassee]

I would love to see other cultures breaking into the fantasy world, especially urban fantasy. I would try to write the stuff myself, but I'm not comfortable enough with other myths and legends outside of the normal Euro stuff to spin a good tale.

And it's the "different" and "alien" aspect of these other cultures that would make me pick up the book, not reject it. Go for it, nandu!

[nandu]

Thanks for the encouragement, everybody! I think I'll go for it.

The story's sort of running around in my mind, not fully formed yet, but it will. Already some scenes are starting to take shape (that's how it usually happens for me). I'll keep you posted.

Nandu.

[blacbird]

Whenever I read fantasy, I can't help feeling that the writers restrict the field very much: it's mostly modelled on European folklore. Maybe because most of them come from Anglo-Saxon backgrounds.

You are correct. Also, the influence of Tolkien pervades so much of what passes as fantasy fiction today that its European roots seem to be everywhere.

I'd very much like to see influences from other world cultures inform and re-energize the fantasy genre, which, from what I see on bookstore shelves these days, has become a bit tired and stultified.

caw

[veinglory]

One advantage of Tolkeinesque work is that is separate from active beliefs. When you work with myths people still follow as beliefs you have to be more careful.

[Shweta]

Hi!
Popping in briefly from Clarion.

I was extremely doubtful of getting a story published in any magazine in the Western world as my background was entirely different.

Strange Horizons actively likes Indian subcontinental stuff. So does Polyphony, though they don't seem to be taking submissions at the moment.

One problem is how much to explain. Elves, Goblins, Pixies etc. are familiar to anyone in the world who reads fantasy literature. By the Curriculum Vitae of my creepies would have to be presented in full: otherwise I feel any Western audience would be totally lost.

Look up Mary Anne Mohanraj (http://www.mamohanraj.com/) and Vandana Singh (http://users.rcn.com/singhvan/), Nandu. If I were you I'd look through some of their fiction. Both for a role model and for a good idea of how much to explain. Oh and, a pretty good idea of how much you can get away with.

Lloyd Alexander's the Iron Ring and Kara Dalkey's Blood of the Goddess trilogy (Goa, Bijapur, Bhagavati) are pretty damngood references too. Also fun books.

"Are there muggles and house elves? If not, I ain't readin' it"
-- signed,
Every child in America.

Nonsense. Tamora Pierce sells incredibly well. And she's hardly the only one. I bring up Tamora Pierce in particular because she plays around with different cultures.

I would love to see other cultures breaking into the fantasy world, especially urban fantasy. I would try to write the stuff myself, but I'm not comfortable enough with other myths and legends outside of the normal Euro stuff to spin a good tale.

Pick up some books of world folklore, Sassee, they're fun :)
You may not be comfortable enough to write them now, but if you read bits and pieces for five years, you will be.

I've got to add, my best response from pro markets so far is for an Indian urban fantasy with Nagas. Not just because it's alien, I think, but also because readers can tell this hits a deep chord with me.

We write differently when we write about things that are close to our hearts.

[Kristiina]

I don't know if I would be comfortable writing urban fantasy with the critters, and even less one that happens in a country, of a culture foreign to me, and if I read one that happens, say, in India I'd hope for a writer who does know the place not only from having read about it but also from having spent at least some time there. But when it comes to a made up fantasy land I am happy enough to stick in creatures and other things found in books about the folklore of foreign countries. I think it's more excusable to get them wrong, or to tweak them into something strange, then.

One reason that non-western folklore gets used so little might be that so many fantasy writers are western, and they may be somewhat scared of using something that doesn't come from their own heritage. I know it does scare me. Too easy to create something that would seem wrong to the people from whose folklore it was taken and perhaps, then, you'd get all kinds of complaints about how what you did was wrong, that you should either have done better research or you shouldn't have done it at all because the folklore wasn't yours to use as it wasn't from your own heritage. That you shouldn't use something you don't understand very thoroughly. So perhaps it is up to the people who are members of those non-western cultures to write their heritage into the fantasy genre.

But then there is of course the fact that actually most of the western fantasy tropes tend to be quite far removed from what you find in western European folklore.

When it comes to things I like to read, yes, I'd find urban fantasy that happens somewhere else than North America more than welcome (hey, there isn't that much that happens in Europe, either, at least if you leave out Britain). And any other type of fantasy using something else than the western European lore too. The only requirements for me are an accessible main character and good writing.

[Sassee]

Well, one could still have their setting in America, but use other non-western creatures to fill the supernatural part. Hell, even pretend something came over from India or China or <insert other country here> and started populating in America, for better or for worse (worse is generally more interesting hehe).

[mscelina]

I think you can use fantasy archetypes and put a twist on them to make them different. My series has Elves (no dwarves or muggles, however) but the world is based on Greco-Roman mythology with some hints of Egyptian and Summerian as well. There is a lot to be said for the Tolkien-based worlds and peoples--they provide a familiar base for the fantasy fan. DoI have any Tolkien-type Elves in Asphodel? You betcha!

But I kill them. It's the smartalec Elves who survive. *grin* My blog ain't called Elf-Killing and other Hobbies for nothin'!

[badducky]

regardless of the source material for your personal inspiration, a vastly more important question is the result.

write it good enough, and it won't matter if you use martian mythology or the mythos of one tiny isolated island in the pacific, or have a king elf named tolkein handing out rings.

i have a question that is related to the subject:

who was the first author in fantasy to have a non-white hero/heroine?

was it ursula k. leguinn?

[xanthalanari]

Well, one could still have their setting in America, but use other non-western creatures to fill the supernatural part. Hell, even pretend something came over from India or China or <insert other country here> and started populating in America, for better or for worse (worse is generally more interesting hehe).

I think you'll find Neil Gaiman's already done that with American Gods. :-D

The Weavers of Saramir is Japanese influenced, and The Years of Rice and Salt Chinese. I can't remember who wrote either of those at the moment though.

Other cultures' myths wouldn't put me off, any more than completely made up ones would.

[Shweta]

who was the first author in fantasy to have a non-white hero/heroine?

was it ursula k. leguinn?

I think it depends on how you define fantasy, but Earthsea is certainly one canonical "first non-white fantasy".

But... did Kipling write fantasy? What's Jungle Book?

I think you'll find Neil Gaiman's already done that with American Gods. :-D

Well yes, but that doesn't mean it's Done :D

I'd like to point out that Terri Windling wrote Wood Wife (http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Wife-Terri-Windling/dp/0765302934/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2988950-5474214?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185244202&sr=1-1) many years before American Gods, and it's a distinctly indigenous-magic urban fantasy set mostly in Arizona. So yeah, a different thing, but very cool too.

In the general "other cultures" mix, has anyone read Leah Cutter's Paper Mage (http://www.amazon.com/Paper-Mage-Leah-R-Cutter/dp/0451459172) and sequels? I haven't yet but I've heard good things.

[nandu]

Well, it must the encouragement I got from all of you; last evening I went home after a gruelling day at the office and started hammering out my tale on my PC keyboard. And you know, it has already taken life of its own! I have found out certain things about the protagonist I didn't know before starting out, and I'm very excited.

I'll put it up in SYW when a chapter is finished. I'm hoping for good input from all of you.

Thanks!

Nandu.

[Shweta]

:hooray:

[nandu]

I've completed the first chapter and put it in SYW. Crits please!

Nandu.

[Evaine]

Someone up thread mentioned The Years of Rice and Salt - wonderful book by Kim Stanley Robinson. It's not just Chinese, though - he also has sections in India and Arab cultures, and even a Native American tribe, the premise being that the Black Death wiped out pretty much all of Europe, so the rest of the world developed quite differently.

[Ordinary_Guy]

Outside of Harry Potter, I haven't read much fantasy in the last 10 years (at least in novel form). HP is classical european fantasy – at least from an American perspective (where life is provincial on cobblestone streets, with old castles around every corner). I don't know and can't say whether this is still the dominant paradigm for fantasy reading in the states.

However...

Fantasy in RPGs is dynamic and constantly evolving. As popular as HP is, the WoW game just reached 9 million subscribers (who pay US$15/mo). It's like having the target audience buy the book over and over and over. Blizzard is absolutely printing money over creating a rich fantasy environment (with deep backstory, characters, styles, items, architecture...). They've got a nod-and-a-half to euro styles, but expand far beyond – even going as far as giving a new take on elves. WoW's version isn't Keebler, House or JRR-style (which is similar to the D&D paradigm).

Even D&D, the granddaddy of fantasy RPGs, has been breaking out of euro-stereotypes, absorbing and adapting human cultures from around the globe and even creating a few utterly new ones.

If multi-culturalism so popular there, among what is probably the same audience as those who'd pick up a $5.99 "TOR" paperback, why isn't it in those paperbacks?

Just a thought...

[zornhau]

Whenever I read fantasy, I can't help feeling that the writers restrict the field very much: it's mostly modelled on European folklore. Maybe because most of them come from Anglo-Saxon backgrounds.

There are a million worlds out there. For example, I come from the state of Kerala in Southern India: till very recently, we had a lot of woodlands filled with local goblins and fairies. The fantasy world used to coexist with the real one. (Of course, the woodlands are still there, but I think all the fairies have been chased away by marauding tourists!);)

Just as a sample, here are two of the denizens of the night:

Yakshi: This fearsome lady lives on top of a palm tree, and entices unwary travellers into her abode in the guise of a beautiful woman. The palm tree transforms itself into a beautiful mansion. Once atop the tree, the hapless traveller is munched up by the Yakshi.

Gandharvan: This handsome spirit sings beautifully and seduces nubile young women. The woman retains her virginity, but she cannot marry. The Gandharvan will kill whoever approaches her with amorous intent.

We have scores more.

This is from one remote corner of the world. My point is, there must be millions of such fantasy beings apart from Elfs, Goblins, Ogres etc. if we scan the globe. Why can't we use different fantasy paradigms?

Nandu.

Good stuff. There was a series knocking around using the Polynesian mythos. I'd certainly read something like this... as long as it has a plot.

[maxmordon]

This made me think a little bit on Magic Realism and how is based in the mythic Southamerica that my grandparents grew up (my maternal grandparents are country folk. My grandfather believes in duendes that protect the mountains and forests and my grandmother says she saw The Death Charriot at midnight crossing the Town Square.

The only non-Western European centered fantasy that had some success was in my opinion Magic Realism because until quite recently here it was a place were nobody knew were the fantasy started and the reality ended; this country was until about 50 years ago a country full with cowboys, witches, warlords and peasants. You can see that in Gabriel García Marquez and Isabel Allende works

Sorry if someone feels that my post has little to do with this, but I Just wanted to mention it

Good luck, Nandu!

[nandu]

This made me think a little bit on Magic Realism and how is based in the mythic Southamerica that my grandparents grew up (my maternal grandparents are country folk. My grandfather believes in duendes that protect the mountains and forests and my grandmother says she saw The Death Charriot at midnight crossing the Town Square.

The only non-Western European centered fantasy that had some success was in my opinion Magic Realism because until quite recently here it was a place were nobody knew were the fantasy started and the reality ended; this country was until about 50 years ago a country full with cowboys, witches, warlords and peasants. You can see that in Gabriel García Marquez and Isabel Allende works

Sorry if someone feels that my post has little to do with this, but I Just wanted to mention it

Good luck, Nandu!

You know, when I first started reading One Hundred Years of Solitude, I expected it to be heavy stuff, like all "good" literature. But I was hooked from the first sentence. Marquez's Macondo was so much like the rural Kerala I had known as a kid, with fantasy and reality existing side by side.

Your post is not out of place here, Max.:)

And thanks for the encouragement, all. I have started writing the story. As of now, it's inchoate, but is taking nice shape as it progresses. I've put up the first chapter in SYW, already got some very insightful comments, and am reworking it.

Nandu.

[DraperJC]

Along the lines of fantasy creatures from other cultures coming over to America, would the indigenous fantasy creatures accept them or discriminate against them and force them to sit in the back of the spectral bus?

[Danger Jane]

I like other cultures, man. Good stuff.

My WIP is based in ancient Greece and all but two of the characters are mythological. I guess it's still European but then again not. Also it is more romance than sword-and-sorcery. Okay it isn't sword-and-sorcery at all.

Mythology and other cultures is the man.

[Moonfish]

I really enjoyed Lian Hearn's trilogy, which later became a four-book series, set in a Japanese-inspired fantasy. And she is not Japanese, but has lived there and studied the culture.
Philip Pullman has, to some extent, included Nordic and Scandinavian traits to his Dark Materials-trilogy. Witches on broomsticks, their names (Finnish-sounding), polar bears etc.
Personally I would love to write a fantasy more Nordic in flavor, however, since I write for my local market (Nordic) it won't be considered all that unique over here...
I would LOVE to read an Indian fantasy! Seriously! What's SYW? Where are you posting the excerpts nandu?

[nandu]

Moonfish,

"SYW" means Share Your Work - where the forum members post stories for other members to criticise. It is available under the AW workshop. I've posted my first chapter there, but it's undergoing an extensive rewrite now because of some problems my friends here pointed out. However, you are welcome to look at it, and offer your crits.

Nandu.

[Sassee]

Along the lines of fantasy creatures from other cultures coming over to America, would the indigenous fantasy creatures accept them or discriminate against them and force them to sit in the back of the spectral bus?

There might be territorial issues, although I would think most creatures would treat each other with respect. Fantasy creatures are normally more powerful than humans in some way, so I don't think traditional racism or any other discrimination would apply to them. But I could definitely see the territory thing causing issues, so you might play around with that.

Although now that I think about it, Laurell K. Hamilton's Meredith Gentry series has something like what you're describing. The "lesser fae" are looked down upon by the Sidhe and are thought to be less powerful (which is not the case, as readers find out later). It's not a clash of cultures but it's still discrimination amongst fantasy creatures.

Hmm, now you've got me thinking.