What about the cover?

[tfdswift]

When you finally do find a publisher, who designs the cover?

Do you need to know an illustrator or graphic designer?

~~Tammy

[maestrowork]

The publisher does.

(unless you ARE the publisher)

[tfdswift]

You mean if I self-publish?

But do I get to help design the cover?

I have a few ideas on what I would like my cover to look like.

~~Tammy

[Arisa81]

If you self publish, you are the publisher ( I think...)

You asked about finding a publisher, and then asked about self - publishing..

Which route are you going ?

[James D Macdonald]

But do I get to help design the cover?

Usually not.

The cover is a sales tool; it's controled by marketing and the art department, not editorial.

[Arisa81]

Now I am thoroughly confused :lol

:gone

[maestrowork]

If you self publisher, since you ARE the publisher, you can decide what covers go into your book. You can do it yourself or hire a graphics designer.

If you find some other publisher to publish the book, then they decide. If it's a small house, they may listen to you (if you have some really good ideas). But usually they have their art department/market/whatever to decide on covers.

I do graphics design, so I always mock up covers based on ideas I have. I plan to present them, whether they take my concepts or not. What do I have to lose, right?

[tfdswift]

Hopefully I will be going with a traditional publisher.

Would I ever go with self-publishing? I don't know. I still have plenty of options still open so far.:money I was just curious about the cover. I guess that is something to worry about later - if the need arises.8o

Thanks.:peace

~~Tammy

[pixie juice]

Hey, I always wondered about that.

If you are traditionally published, and the marketing department designs the cover, does the author get any say in the final product at all? For example, what if you really hate the design, or you think it does nothing to capture the theme of the book, or whatever... does the author get a veto?

[Editrx]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If you are traditionally published, and the marketing department designs the cover, does the author get any say in the final product at all? For example, what if you really hate the design, or you think it does nothing to capture the theme of the book, or whatever... does the author get a veto?<hr></blockquote>
Stephen King may get a small hearing from his publisher if he has a complaint, but even most best-selling authors get no say at all. They leave it to the professionals whose job it is to design and package a book's cover.

Short answer: Covers are the realm of the publisher alone; the author has no control or involvement.

What to do? Put the entire question from your mind and concentrate on your writing. Honest. If you obsess about "what if I don't like my cover?" you are only causing undue anxiety about something of which you will never have control. Let it go. Really.

(My favorite story of a cover complaint? An author of fantasies I know kept complaining that the publisher put "chain-mail-bikini-clad babes" on all her covers. So she finally wrote a book that had a chain-mail-bikini-clad babe as the main character. What was put on the cover? A heavily bearded dude on a horse. Can't win, sometimes.)

[Jamesaritchie]

I had no control at all on cover or title of my first two published novels. I had some serious input on cover for the third novel, and full control of title. The title is the only place I now insist on control. I will not let a book of mine go out with a bad title.

I do want input on the cover just is case someone in marketing has a brain fart, but mainstream publishers pay experts lots of money to design a cover that sells, and what sells is usually not what the writer thinks will sell. They usually do a good job.

Better for the writer to do what he does best, which is writing, and let those in marketing do what they do best, which is marketing.

[arrowqueen]

No, You have no control over your cover whatsoever. You should see mine! The 16th century novice nun looks as if she got her habit at Victoria's Secret; the Victorian slum girl is sporting a perfect French manicure and I didn't know till the Roman one came out that they'd invented the purple lycra thong. Great stuff!

;)

aq

[Kate Nepveu]

Let me just put stars around this:

what sells is usually not what the writer thinks will sell

For instance, a lot of people hate shiny covers, or covers with cutouts; but these are signals to the people who order books for bookstores that "this is an important book that the publisher thinks will do well." Etc.

[macalicious731]

Arrow, you made me laugh! I usually snigger at the covers of romance novels, anyway, but I never thought of the poor author whose name is on the front along with those pictures! :lol

[cleoauthor]

Because my partner and I didn't know beans about publishing, we included illustrations and cover art with our manuscript, which was picked up my a major house. The editor loved the artwork and the cover and it was ultimately used. Only later did we learn this just isn't done. Ooops!

Because of our "stupidity," we got exactly the cover we wanted, but it was pure dumb luck.

I am not, however, advocating stupidity on this grand scale! And I promise I'll never submit cover art again!

Linda

[maestrowork]

Why do you think it's stupid? I'd say, if you have an idea, by all means present it. Chances are the publisher won't use it, but what do you have to lose?

[sillysteph]

I've heard of authors negotiating "cover consultation" into their contracts. I'm also told that the chances of a first-time author actually getting this are just about zero. It would be a good thing to discuss with an agent.

[Jamesaritchie]

No first time writer is going to have say-so with the cover. Period. Only a handful of pro writers have any say-so.

It's really one of those things that is pointless, anyway. Odds are a thousand to one the writer doesn't have a clue what makes a good cover, meaning one that sells a novel, and he can screw up his relationship with an editor/publisher bigtime by insisting on control of something he knows nothing about, and that isn't part of his job in the first place.

The writer's job is to write the book. The publisher's job is to publish the book. The marketing department's job is to do the things that let the book be marketed in the best possible way, which includes cover design.

Worry about the things you can control.

[Karen Ranney]

Amen to that!

I suck at titles, so it's best for me to let Marketing do their thing. (Out of 17 books, I suggested two titles they used.)

Nor would I have the slightest idea what covers would sell better. I do, however, have the distinction for having the most god-awful cover in the world, in Heaven Forbids. But even that is a selling point. People are curious enough about the cover to look at it and then read the blurb. But I think the artist must have been having a bad day when he did that one. There are green things growing out of the middle of it, not to mention the colors. And what's with those flowers?

<img border=0 src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0821758675.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg" />

[cleoauthor]

Oh, Karen, that cover is, well...uh...let's say "busy." You must have been horrified the first time you saw it! And what ARE those green things growing out of it?

Linda

[Jamesaritchie]

Hey, I kind of like that cover. It would make me buy the book. Especially since the guy on the cover looks just like me.
Well, we both have two arms, two eyes, a neck, etc.

[macalicious731]

Hmm... is that blue heart part of the cover, too? Interesting. Kind of makes me think twice about wanting to be published! :eek

[ChunkyC]

Karen, as an unpublished author, I can't really say much other than I hope the book sold well and continues to sell well for you ... and that the heroine doesn't have allergies. :grin

[vstrauss]

>> I've heard of authors negotiating "cover consultation" into their contracts<<

I've had a cover consult written into my last two contracts (both two-book contracts). I get to see the cover in its various stages of completion, from sketch to finished product, and have to sign off on the final version. Does this mean I can make a fuss if I think the concept sucks, or if the characters look wrong, or the scene they decide to illustrate has nothing to do with the story? Sure, if I'm willing to deal with the ill-will it will produce. So far, I'm not--and also, the covers have been pretty good.

I have made a few small suggestions at the sketch stage, some of which have been considered, some not. For instance, my editor agreed that the female figure on my latest novel shouldn't be wearing a belly-dancer outfit, and got the artist to put her in something more closely resembling the kind of clothing that's described in the book. This was all accomplished very amicably, because I have a pretty good relationship with my editor. It's a fine line, though, and I didn't push it.

- Victoria

[Karen Ranney]

In all fairness, Heaven Forbids was from my first publisher. Surprisingly, it did sell well, and it went on to be a finalist in the Rita. I still think it is the ugliest thing I've ever seen.

I have a great editor, and publisher, who involve me in the process from beginning to end. I have to give the art department info about the book, suggestions about layout, colors I'd like, titles, etc. I've just finished a series, and the last book of the series had an absolutely beautiful cover. In fact, all of my HarperCollins/Avon books have been beautiful.

My forte, however, is in writing the book. I haven't the slightest idea what attracts a reader. So, as long as my sales keep going up, I'm going to keep my mouth shut. :grin

[HConn]

Karen, that doesn't look to bad to me.

This, however:

http://www.redeem.freeserve.co.uk/webpics/RLresurrectiondreamPBO.jpg

I bought this despite the cover, because the author is very good. Scary, too.

But that is one embarrassing cover.

[Jamesaritchie]

I've been told by more than one marketing department that a good cover is not necessarily a cover readers like. It is, rather one that gets the reader close enough to the novel to make them read the title and cover blurb.
It's one that draws the eye from a distance, even if it isn't so great close up.

My guess is that online book buying may be changing this, but I don't put a lot of stock in the value of a good cover. I'm much more concerned with having a good title and a well-written cover blurb.

Though I had a novel published about seven years ago that had my favorite cover of all time. It was called "The Wagon Wars," and was about the big freight wagons in the old west pulled by twenty mule teams.

The published found an actual photo of one of these teams and used it as the book cover. I thought it was a fantastic cover.

But without a doubt, of the western novels I've published, the one with the best sales had the worst cover by far. I don't think I've met anyone who liked that cover, but it outsold "The Wagon Wars" by a very wide margin.

[Kate Nepveu]

As a data point, I *have* picked up books on the basis of their cover--_The Stone War_, for instance [Amazon page] (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312854862/). Covers are indeed just another form of advertising.

[Kida Adelyn]

It looks like a romance cover. I don't like romances so I can't really offer much opinion, but it's obvious that it's a romance so there is no confusion as to what your reading.

[LiamJackson]

H, what caused you to pick up Laymon's book in the first place? Did that gawd-awful cover have anything to do with it?

Just curious.

[tfdswift]

I have thought and considered everything everybody has said in this thread and you know what I have discovered about myself...

I pick up books based completely on the title. That is what gets me to read the blurb and ultimately decide whether I want to read the book.

As I was reading the last few comments here I looked over and saw a copy of Dean Koontz "Sole Survivor" sitting on the shelf. It in no way has an interesting cover or anything in which to draw a reader in. There is a big yellow circle then a reddish-orange color around that and a kind of purple color around the edge. I have a scanner and would put a pic on this post if I knew how.

Honestly it is always the title that draws me at first. I even realized that sometimes I don't notice the cover until I am well into the book based on the blurb. Like if I am reading a romance I will look at the cover only when I come to the part of the book that describes the main characters.

Right now I am reading Dean Koontz's "Ice Bound" and without looking I cannot tell you one thing on the cover. I have truly not even glanced at the cover in any way to remember a single detail. It is in my bedroom - so I can't cheat and just glance over at it.

Which makes me ask: Who decides on the TITLE? Because I tend to think that may actually be more important. (IMO):D

~~Tammy

[HConn]

Liam, I'd been looking for a decent scary book for a while. I have very specific tastes when it comes to horror, and no one was scratching that itch.

I'd enjoyed Laymon's short fiction and had heard great things about him as a novelist. I walked into the bookstore determined to buy something of his. That cover almost talked me out of it.

I'm glad I picked it up, though. Despite the cover, it's a solid, scary story. Not spectacularly written, but definitely chill-inducing.

There's another Laymon book I've been meaning to pick up called The Traveling Vampire Show (I think that's the title). That's one of his most-praised books.

[Yeshanu]

Like if I am reading a romance I will look at the cover only when I come to the part of the book that describes the main characters.

The cover of a standard romance has a Manly Man (generally with lots of muscles and no shirt on) on the left side of the picture. He's holding a woman (with gown pulled down to show top part of creamy breasts) who is bent over backwards. The only thing that will resemble the main characters in the novel is the colour of the heroine's hair...

Karen's cover is a sterling example of the type...

James -- Is that really you on the cover of all those books? (I think they must use the same male model...)

And back to cleo's post:

cleo, it's true that it isn't usual for authors to submit cover art with their novels, but it's almost unheard-of for the publisher to use said cover art. Have you tried signing on with them to do covers for other writer's books? You (or whoever did the artwork) certainly have what it takes...

[tfdswift]

But, what about the title? Who decides?

~~Tammy

[LiamJackson]

Thanks H. I'll look him up.

[Tish Davidson]

You can suggest; the publishing house decides. Write the book, find a publisher, then fret about the cosmetics.

[cleoauthor]

Oh, I didn't do the cover art or the illustrations for the book! Don't think there's much demand for stick figures! No, a friend of mine is a pretty well-known illustrator, and I asked if he could do a couple of illustrations for the book and the cover. He did it as a favor to me. St. Martin's Press told us that we would have to pay him out of our pitiful advance, but ultimately they paid him because they were crazy about his work. It was a win-win for everyone involved.

[macalicious731]

Tammy, from what I know about titles, the author sends one in with the manuscript, and more often than not the editor will slap a new one on.

(Good thing, too, because I'm horrible at titles.)

[Jamesaritchie]

The title is one place I do have approval. I think the title is far more important than the cover.

I did have to earn the right to have ttile approval by showing my titles were sellers and a couple the marketing department wanted weren't.

[Editrx]

From my experience, it all depends on the book: Sometimes an author's title is used, sometimes it isn't. It all depends on the book, the title suggested, and how marketable the title is (or how well it fits). Titles are often changed for some reason as slight as Book #2 with a similar title coming out during the same month or season as Book #1 (from the same or differing houses); even though titles cannot be copyrighted, the editor and marketing people will want to avoid deliberate confusion in stores as well as confused customers and advertising schemes.

[JimMorcombe]

"I've heard of authors negotiating "cover consultation" into their contracts"

If getting published is like any other business, then I'd say its a good thing to get a "cover consultation" clause, but to never use it (except in drastic situations)

If the people doing the cover know the author will be looking at it, then they'll probably try that little bit harder...particularly if the author tells them he really likes what the artist did last time.

basic rule in business...let the experts do it, but let them know you are watching.