Time spent developing before writing

[JuliePgh]

I'm curious about how long each writer here takes to develop his/her characters, worlds, plots, and so on before starting to write or outline.

When I get an idea that "sticks", I have an instant feel of who the main characters are and a rough idea of plot. I don't feel I can do any writing or true fleshing out of the characters until I have plot down. Plot is my major stumbling block and driver for me. Once I have basic plot down, world creation and plot progress together, both becoming more detailed as I play with the questions, problems and impacts of my choices. Then, I'm able to work on characters and create a basic outline. Unfortunately, my answers don't all come to me by sitting down with pen and paper (or pc). I need to let days or weeks pass by while I mull over the possibilities or wait for the answers to "come to me." In all, my process takes months before I start writing. Anyone else go through a similar (and lengthy) process?

[AstralisLux]

So far, one year and seven months. But, I am writing historical fiction. Much of it is procrastination, I'm sure.

[Jamesaritchie]

Since I don't believe in plotting, I spend zero time there. Since I don't want to know anything at all about my characters except what is revealed naturally through the story, I spend zero time there.

The only time I put in before splurging ahead is getting the opening scene and situation right, and research. Research generally takes two weeks or less. If it's a subject I know little about, or a period in time I know little about, I find two good, authoritative books on the subject or time period and read them straight through, marking important dates or facts with bookmarks as I go.

This takes up to a week with each book, usually less.

Then I start writing and don't stop until I reach the end of the novel.

[LiamJackson]

Now, THAT is a system for ya'.

[cleoauthor]

Maybe there's just something not quite right about me -- and I'm sure this is the case -- but I spend an inordinate amount of time developing characters, plots, background in my head. When I sit down at the computer, I pretty much know where I'm going and how to get there. It's the interesting little sidetrips that pop up while I'm at the computer.

[Kida Adelyn]

Maybe there's just something not quite right about me -- and I'm sure this is the case -- but I spend an inordinate amount of time developing characters, plots, background in my head. When I sit down at the computer, I pretty much know where I'm going and how to get there. It's the interesting little sidetrips that pop up while I'm at the computer.
I'm the same way, I write entire scenes in my head, all I have to do is get them on paper.

[SRHowen]

Again, with the trouble posting--grrrrr

Anyway--I am a zero time spent as well. I do spend a bit of time getting the first chapter right but from there I just write.

Shawn

[AstralisLux]

Since I don't believe in plotting, I spend zero time there. Since I don't want to know anything at all about my characters except what is revealed naturally through the story, I spend zero time there.

Everyone has their own system. On the flip-side of this statement, though, because I believe in plotting, I spend a lot of time there. Because I want to know everything about my characters as I naturally create a story, I spend a lot of time there. ;)

[Irene Keyes]

This subject came up in a writers group I attend, and it's interesting to see the divide between those who prefer to plunge -- put characters in situations and let things develop -- and those who prefer to do lots of prework on character and plotting, etc.

If you tend to be a "plotter" (for lack of a better designation) Elizabeth George's book Write Away might interest you. Talk about pre-work! She writes complete character analyses and running plot outlines which include notes on setting, POV, & THADS (talking head avoidance devices). Since I'm more a plotter than a plunger, I picked up some good ideas from her. (A plunger would probably find her ideas unhelpful).

[JuliePgh]

For the non-plotters out there, Shawn and Jamesaritchie in particular, I admire your ability to plunge in. I wish I could to this myself. Perhaps in time...

With your dive right in approach, how much of what you write do you later remove or rewrite during revisions? 5%, 10%, 30% ? I have a feeling the non-plotters would end up throwing out 50% if they plunged in and just wrote away without outlines to keep on track. I'm sure I would! Also, do you have an end in mind when you start? Or a theme?

[tfdswift]

I tend to start an idea with pen and paper and make notes all over the place and then organize the notes and then research other things I may not be clear on and then sit down and write.

Of course I am no expert writer. I was told once that I don't do enough "homework" beforehand, though. Everyday is another lesson to be learned for me.

~~Tammy

[Jamesaritchie]

Actually, last time I checked, the majority of pro novelists don't plot.

I throw out almost nothing. The novel always comes in within 5,000 words one way of the otehr of the length it's supposed to be. That's close enough to leave alone, if I wish, and I sold the first draft of my first novel without changing anything.

I think those who plot don't really understand how situational writing works. It isn't random writing, or just writing whatever pops into your mind. It isn't anything like stream of consciousness.

There is, I think, sort of a general rule that a final draft is the first draft minus ten percent, but that's just tightening, and usually holds true however the novel is written.

If I remember correctly, Robert B. Parker writes five pages each day, and what he writes is what the reader gets. No rewriting at all, and he's considered one of the mor eliterary mystery novelists out there.

It actually takes about a bit less than half as many drafts on average to write a situational novel as it does an outlined novel.

[maestrowork]

It seems like it's only a matter of whether you plot it in your head or you use pen/paper or computer to plot it. Some people don't feel comfortable keeping everything in their head, and some do.

[SRHowen]

No, no, no--see that's it. When you write without an outline, you don't plot anything out in your head or on paper. You just write.

You sit.

You get idea--small idea. As simple as A man sees a woman sitting on a park bench.

You know nothing about the woman or the man or why they are in the park. So you start typing words and the story comes and you learn about the plot and characters as you write the same way the reader would who just picked up the book. Heck, I don't even know the genre until, say a character shows me he can use magic or that the park in on a space ship--etc.

And you learn things as you go--and when you hit the end, the thing makes sense, it flows, it's magic. The plot works without glaring holes--that's not to say you don't need to edit, but the story works. No plotting and no planning.

Shawn

[maestrowork]

And you learn things as you go--and when you hit the end, the thing makes sense, it flows, it's magic. The plot works without glaring holes--that's not to say you don't need to edit, but the story works. No plotting and no planning.

How can you be sure that your plot has no glaring holes and that the story works? And that you didn't write something that is cliche? Seems too "magical" to me.

[SRHowen]

I wish I could answer that. I really do. But I can't. I don't know.:shrug

I write, the story works, and everything makes sense. And other true seat of the pants writers are the same, at least the ones I have talked to.

On another BB, I got into this same thing and no one understood or believed me. I ended up having to leave the BB because people said, but you can't write a book that way. Sigh. At least I know there are a few other non-planners here who do understand, maybe they can tell you the way it works.

I honestly have no idea. It's like the story is all there in my head, but I can't see it until I write each word on the page. I'm simply the tool the characters use to tell their story.

Shawn

[AstralisLux]

"pro-novelists don't plot"

Who? Are you saying that an outline is the same as a plot, by chance?

[Euan Harvey]

>Since I don't want to know anything at all about my characters except what is revealed naturally through the story...

How do you keep your characters' reactions consistent? Do you go over and read what you've written previously (editing as you go)?

The reason I ask is I'm wondering if you find you get character drift. For example, mannerisms change, or speech patterns change or so on.

Cheers,

Euan

[SRHowen]

We are not talking about the plot of the book here, we are talking about plotting out what will happen. Well, I guess that is basically the plot. LOL

I can't understand how anyone can outline and plot out a whole book then write it. UGH. I mean, OK I get it--you decide this is what you want to happen and then decide how the characters will get from a to b and from b to c and so on. But once I outline and plot out (map) the entire story, I'm done with it. I know the end, and that's it--my brain turns off, my muse escapes, next idea and story please.

I don't edit as I go. I do read the last page or two I wrote before I start writing each day--but that's not to check how Sam is going to react when Jill shoots his dog. It's to get back into that story as I have several going at any one time.

In a recent book I had the idea I stated above. A man sees a woman sitting on the back of a park bench.

So I sat down, started writing and discovered that she was sitting on a bench in a park I knew from my childhood and teen years. I had no idea until I typed the words Lake Side Park. I didn't have an idea the bench was the one near the pier or that it was the one on the left side behind the bandstand and near the hot-dog kiosk, again, until I typed those words.

The man, the very first sentence started with the word "I." When I had the thought of a man sees a woman sitting on the back of a park bench, I had no idea it would even be a first person story. Other than class assignments, I'd never done a first person story and certainly not a first person novel. But there it was, I parked the Jag on the --wow, in that first line I discovered the man drove a Jag. And when he got out of the car I discovered his race, and that he was the new owner of the kiosk. Shortly after that I knew the woman was homeless. (or I thought she was, because that's what the main character (the man) assumed.) Many chapters later I discovered she was a time traveler--but in chapter one, she was a homeless woman and that was it--one that spooked the main character pretty bad.

The character's reactions are natural to them and the story.

By the end of the first chapter, I knew that the story would have a mystical quality to it. The woman vanishes into the fog--gone--poof. Did I know where she went or when she would reappear--or even if she would reappear?--nope. Not until chapter three when she shows up in the ER of the hospital where the main character is a doctor.

And so on. Mannerisms stay the same, characters don't drift unless something in their life changes them with good reason. And the story does work. Magic--who knows, maybe. LOL

Shawn

[SRHowen]

OH and--King and Anne Rice are two writers I can think of who do not plot out or outline their work.

Shawn

[bolshywoman]

Thanks for a great post, Shawn! I particularly liked this:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"But once I outline and plot out (map) the entire story, I'm done with it. I know the end, and that's it--my brain turns off, my muse escapes, next idea and story please.<hr></blockquote>

That's just so exactly how it is for me, too.

[vstrauss]

>> Actually, last time I checked, the majority of pro novelists don't plot.<<

This is a huge generalization. I just can't imagine making such a sweeping statement about any aspect of the writing process, given the very large number of pro novelists and the unlikelihood of knowing the majority of them.

I know many pro novelists who plot, including myself (by which I mean anything from a brief synopsis to weeks of meticulous research and pre-planning). To imply that plotting or pre-planning is somehow less "pro" is not just insulting to those who do pre-plan, it's damaging to new writers still in search of a method, because it implies that plotting or pre-planning is somehow inferior. It's not--it's just what works, if it's what works for you.

- Victoria

[wisdomquest]

Jamesaritchie ...

I wondered if you could clue me in to what "situational writing" is?

I've been doing a lot of reading since finding this forum - (great place!) - and I've seen you mention situational writing a couple of times.

I've never come across the term before.

Thanks! :snoopy

[cleoauthor]

I agree with Victoria. I know as many pro writers who plot/outline as those who don't. Whatever works! I kind of got the impression from one of the posters that if you did plot/outline first that it was a sign of an amateur as opposed to a "pro." I disagree.

I'm a plotter. I tried to do "let it grow organically" on the last novel. What a mess I created. I had to start all over again from page 1 -- after I created an outline.

Like I said, whatever works for YOU is the only correct way.

Linda

[SFEley]

SRHowen wrote:
OH and--King and Anne Rice are two writers I can think of who do not plot out or outline their work.
Alas, they read like it, too. They've each done a few truly great stories, but they tend to be hit-or-miss on whether their endings are satisfying, or even make any sense.

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[maestrowork]

Some genre requires you to plot -- at least to some extent, instead of writing as you go: mystery, suspense, etc. There are elements that can be written sponteneously, of course. But you do have to know the direction your story will be taking, and how events unfold to take you there. I'd bet that someone like Agatha Christie or Dan Brown plotted a hell lot -- at least a few chapters ahead.

Character-driven stories can probably be done in a "plot-as-you-go" fashion. After all, your characters do drive the story, and not the other way around.

[SRHowen]

is a silly argument. To say one is better than the other is silly as well--and when it starts getting into implied insults, then it is even more silly. :ack

One is not better than the other--you can't say well if you outlined then the story would be better, or if you just went with it the story would be better. That's total crap.

Many writers are hit and miss, and not every story will be liked by everyone, even fans can find a story or two they do not like by their fav author.

I've liked everything Rice has done, I have liked some of what King has done with more on the not liked side. I love Tony Hillerman (no idea if he plots or not but I would say yes, he does) except his latest book which sucked and read like well an outline. (but that doesn't mean outlinning is bad)

The thread was about how much time gets put into planning, then it went on to asking how does not planning work--sounds like magic and so on.

Let's not digress into mud slinging because one group does it one way and another group does it differently.

Both ways work.

All writers can have a story that is not so good. Best sellers get by with these.

YOU DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU. And that is the bottom line.

Shawn

[AstralisLux]

Anne Rice

Anne Rice has admitted that she plotted, stopped, and then plotted every now and then.

One complaint about the the novels that she did not plot, is that her endings wander.

[AstralisLux]

If there's no planning, then there's no plotting, right?

If you plan, then it presumes you've actually plotted at least a beginning and ending as a guide, I presume.

[HConn]

As someone who needs to rewrite, I like outlining. An outline is just a first draft, done in a condensed version. If there's anything I need to change in the second draft (the first that looks like a full version of the work) I change it. No problem.

I'll occasionally read a book and think: this author doesn't outline. Maybe the most exciting scene is on page 50. Maybe the middle is a series of unconnected travails that don't advance the story. Maybe the ending feels tossed off. I'll go to the internet, find an interview with the author and confirm that they don't outline at all.

Which isn't to say that these are the hallmarks of an unplanned story. They're just some of the problems that an outline is supposed to address. For writers who don't suffer from these troubles, I can see why an outline would be a wasted step.


edited to add: I heard that Stephen King once had an idea for a novel on a long drive. By the end of the drive hours later, he had worked out the plot of the book. That sounds like outlining to me, even if nothing is written down.

[killerkellerh]

My experience is really limited, but for what it's worth...I came up with several novel ideas and started working on them one after another with no motivation and not urgency. The common thread turned out to be that I outlined some and I did an 8 page synopsis on others. So, basically I didn't have any reason to write them. I kept getting bored with the story and the plot.

Now, I am 12k words into my latest attempt and having a fabulous time with it. All i have done is kept a side file going with character names and a couple words of who they are and a file with clues as I go. Clues meaning murder suspect clues.

I had a great idea one day for a lead character for a series of books. Then, I had 3 really quick what if scenes go thru my head. those scenes are the plots behind the 1st three in the series. I have only been working on the first novel up to now of course, but I want to finish it so that I can see what happens in the others!

When righting, all I take is my laptop, thesaurus, and dictionary. As others have mentioned, I just start typing. I have an ending in mind and scenes are starting to pile up now that I am making my way toward the end of the beginning of the book.

Friday night I had to start a flashback scene to help develop the main character, and I knew that really bad had to happen to that character. I didn't know what it would be, so i just starting writing about the character and his partner in a restaurant, and let the characters tell the story. I was truly amazed by what came out. It was truly exciting! :snoopy

later,

Keller
Reno
Amateur :party

[cherilnc]

Hi,

This is my first post on this forum.

I'm currently working on my fourth novel, the one of which is taking me quite a bit of time to nail the characters down...a few months, which is long for me.

With my first three projects, it only took a few weeks if that to nail them. The beginning of the book is what takes me forever to get right...that First Chapter.

Cheril
www.cherilnclarke.com

[noh1]

I tip my hat to all of you that do so much work. I get a handle on my characters, figure out what I want my opening to be, know my ending, then go for it.

I can't do all that outlining and stuff like that. For me, it hinders letting the thing breathe and come to life. That's just me, though, and I probably have more rewriting to do than other people.

[TerriLynn]

Well, me, I have to write up a brief synopsis of what the story is about beginning to end or I'll lose my focus.
But, I don't do character outlines even though my stories tend to be character driven. And I'm also an edit as I go writer so :shrug whatever works, right?

[Risseybug]

I'll put in my two cents here. When I wrote my last book (which is the first one I finished) I just sat down and started writing. I had a general idea what it was going to be about up to a certain point.

It was the fine details that came to me as I was writing. Someone showed up that I had no idea was coming (and without a name, how rude!) , and things happened that I didn't expect.
Boy, is that fun :) !

But I handwrite until I get a few pages done, then I put them into the computer. Most of the time what goes into the 'ol word processor doesn't look like what I've handwritten. Many changes, like clearing up foggy sentences and stuff like that. But the story is essentially the same.


Anyway, pretty much the same thing this time around. I am doing some research, because I want certain things to be accurate, or at least get the name right. But I am doing it as I go, b/c I won't need most of it until later in the book. I know what it's going to be about, just need to flesh it out.

I do have a notebook though, that I keep things I don't want to forget in. I had a plot problem, I knew it was going to be a problem. So I thought about it for a while and when the answer hit me, I wrote it in my little notebook so I wouldn't forget.

So I guess I don't pre-plan as much as plan as I go.

[ShinyPenguin]

I don't plot with short stories, but my attempts at novels always went nowhere, as in no plot. For the novel I'm working on now, I did plot, but the characters seem to have taken over and it has changed from my original outline. So I'm not sure if that puts me in with the plotters or non-plotters.

[Dhewco]

It depends on the genre. In my contemporary YA fantasy, I outlined the plot. But as with another poster, I've changed things around a little. But I still have the outline to keep me pointed in a direction. I'm not completely wild with it.

With my alternative history, I'm by the seat of my pants. But I'm considering changing my mind on that. It might be easier to scratch up a rough outline.