How should the Poetry Forum work?

[poetinahat]

So, tell me. What would work best for you and for all of us?

Clearly, many people want the forum to change. I hope you'll all vote for what you want.

Forgive the long list of options; tick as many boxes as you like. I just want to get it right this time. Grey boxes indicate password-protected areas.

I'll leave this poll open for a week. Please check the poll end date.

Thank you.

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Option 1 -- The Way It Is Now

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option1-current.jpg

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Option 2 -- Same Rooms, More Open

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option2-movethewall.jpg

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Option 3 -- No Password

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option3-nowall.jpg

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Option 4 -- Protect Poems and Games

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option4-protectthegames.jpg

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Option 5 -- The Way We Were

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option5-thewaywewere.jpg

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Option 6 -- The Way We Were, No Password

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option6-opencritroom.jpg

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Option 7 -- The Way We Were, No Password, Crits Only

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option7-opencrits-onlyroom.jpg

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Option 8 -- The Way We Were, Plus Open Chapbook

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option8-openchapbook.jpg

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Option 9 -- The Way We Were, Plus Protected Chapbook

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/forum%20options/option9-protectedchapbook.jpg

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Option 10 -- Other (please post)

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*** END ***

[MacAllister]

I dunno as there's any such thing as getting it right, you know? I think that the way we've been doing it has served a lot of purposes -- and we can be creative and flexible enough to grow, as those need change. :)

[louisgodwin]

Cool, I'm the first one to vote! Option 9 would work best for me, though I'd be perfectly okay with Option 2 as well. I'd also be okay with putting the Chapbook back into the main board (Option 5) so long as the rule remains "no crits" for poems posted there. There are poems I've posted in the Chapbook I would not have posted here otherwise.

[P.H.Delarran]

I'm stuck between two and nine myself.
Personally, I prefer the separation of games and discussions, but if that keeps some from venturing in, then I'm all for throwing them all together.
I'm not sure the Chapbook needs to be password protected? What's the view of those who post there?

[poetinahat]

Don't forget - you can select more than one option.

[dclary]

You put Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more time into illustrating this poll than was warranted, sir.

[Bartholomew]

Other:

Poetry Critique should go with the other critique boards. The chapterbook, poetry discussion, etc, should remain as they are, without the password.

[poetinahat]

Bart, there's a link to this board over from the other area, so it's effectively both here and there. Discussion in this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70422).

Thanks for voicing your opinion.

[Pat~]

I'm sticking with number 1. The forum is so large, that it really helps to have the separate divisions, I think. I also like having the whole thing password protected. The problem with taking the password off of Discussion and Games/Exercises is that if I wanted to submit a poem created in those, I'd have to go back and delete it from the post, leaving blanks and gaps in the games or discussion workshops. Doesn't make for a cohesive thread. I just have a hard time seeing that typing a 6-letter password keeps newcomers out.

BTW, something I've always been curious about...I always get in without a password. Is that because of how I've bookmarked AW somehow?

[skelly]

I voted for "the way it is now." I don't know precisely why we decided that things needed to be changed, but I am pretty happy with things as they are. All of this talk about "being more open" astounds me. So people have to type in a password? So what? It's plainly displayed; we're not hiding it from anyone.

Usually when people feel the need to start jacking around with something like this, it is a sign of something else is wrong. If that is the case, I sure wish we could get to the bottom of the issue without completely rearranging the whole freakin poetry forum to do it. I think it works just fine, and I don't think there is anyone out there in cyber-space who wants to find it, but can't.

Finally, if you remove the password from the crit/workshop section, some of us, out of respect for the people who publish our work on a fairly regular basis, will be unable to participate.

[KTC]

Thinking makes my head hurt. I say leave it.

[Writer???]

I voted for "the way it is now." I don't know precisely why we decided that things needed to be changed, but I am pretty happy with things as they are. All of this talk about "being more open" astounds me. So people have to type in a password? So what? It's plainly displayed; we're not hiding it from anyone.

Usually when people feel the need to start jacking around with something like this, it is a sign of something else is wrong. If that is the case, I sure wish we could get to the bottom of the issue without completely rearranging the whole freakin poetry forum to do it. I think it works just fine, and I don't think there is anyone out there in cyber-space who wants to find it, but can't.

Finally, if you remove the password from the crit/workshop section, some of us, out of respect for the people who publish our work on a fairly regular basis, will be unable to participate.

Ditto and even for those of us with delusions of grandure, the password is important.

And not just the password and publishing protection, but from my own experience, I like the separation.

I go to another forum (not a writer's forum) where there is only ONE main forum, no separation at all, and everyday there is a post or two about the confusion, clutter, finding a particular post, having to scroll through endless posts to get to something, etc., and it always degenerates into arguments dominating the the forum.

Also, the less separation, the faster things get shoved off the front page. At that other site, you can post a thread or a comment in the morning, come back to check it in the afternoon or evening and it might be three or four pages old by then.

[Rivana]

I don't get where the sudden polls are coming from. Granted I've been kind of absent for a while, but still.
I thought we settled this when decided on password protecting the whole thing in the first place.
Leave it be, I say.
It would suck to have to remove all my work and stop posting here.
Since I put most of my stuff in the chapbook and the exercises thread removing password protection from them would totally screw up my world. If you're gonna go messing around with the forums, please give ample warning so I can remove everything beforehand.
:e2bummed: I love playing with words and sharing my work, but if I can't feel safe in doing it unless posting for crit heavy feedback, then I won't be coming back.

[Writer???]

I don't get where the sudden polls are coming from. Granted I've been kind of absent for a while, but still.
I thought we settled this when decided on password protecting the whole thing in the first place.
Leave it be, I say.
It would suck to have to remove all my work and stop posting here.
Since I put most of my stuff in the chapbook and the exercises thread removing password protection from them would totally screw up my world. If you're gonna go messing around with the forums, please give ample warning so I can remove everything beforehand.
:e2bummed: I love playing with words and sharing my work, but if I can't feel safe in doing it unless posting for crit heavy feedback, then I won't be coming back.

This brings up a point I keep thinking about. What is "safe"? You can't delete what others have quoted. You can't stop anyone from copying and posting elsewhere, and they don't even have to register to get the password or go to the forums and read or copy.

Let's say "Joe Schmuckwad" is prowling around. He comes across AW and ventures in. Well, he's free to enter, copy, print, whatever. So he finds a poem or story of yours and prints it out to hang on his wall, or post in another forum to poke fun at or something, even if he intends to be kind or educational and analyze it with others, it's still "out there."

I don't know what if anything can be done, but I do think it's something we should all be aware of. It's not simply a matter of deleting your posts or relying on passwords to protect you from anything other than the roaming bots or whatever they're called. There is still a large amount of faith and guts required to hit the submit button anywhere on the net.

[Rivana]

There is still a large amount of faith and guts required to hit the submit button anywhere on the net.

Certainly, but not being able to prevent all negative effects of posting online doesn't mean one should give it all up as a lost cause. If editors tell me that they don't want to be able to find my stuff on Google etc, but that posting in 'protected' environments like a password protected forum is fine, then that's how it's going to be. You'll never be completely safe, but you can make an effort.

[Pat~]

This brings up a point I keep thinking about. What is "safe"? You can't delete what others have quoted. You can't stop anyone from copying and posting elsewhere, and they don't even have to register to get the password or go to the forums and read or copy.

Let's say "Joe Schmuckwad" is prowling around. He comes across AW and ventures in. Well, he's free to enter, copy, print, whatever. So he finds a poem or story of yours and prints it out to hang on his wall, or post in another forum to poke fun at or something, even if he intends to be kind or educational and analyze it with others, it's still "out there."

I don't know what if anything can be done, but I do think it's something we should all be aware of. It's not simply a matter of deleting your posts or relying on passwords to protect you from anything other than the roaming bots or whatever they're called. There is still a large amount of faith and guts required to hit the submit button anywhere on the net.

Well, there's two things at play here, apparently.

1) Some people might feel their work is 'safer' if posted in a password-protected forum (I guess meaning safe from those who might copy and paste). As you've illustrated, there is no such safeguard, really. Your best bet is to send a chapbook of your poems to the copyright office ($35) if you want that kind of protection. Many of mine posted here have been covered that way. But with the difficulty in getting poems published, and with the typically low pay, the likelihood of someone stealing your poem just to attempt to get it published is pretty slim. (I mean, if you're going to plagiarize, wouldn't you rather have a $500 article or short story?)

2) Some people want password protection to keep their work safe from crawlers, so that it can still be considered unpublished by a publication interested in acquiring first rights. This to me is a bigger issue. And before the forum was password-protected, I had to keep going back and removing various pieces that I'd submitted. I always felt a bit guilty buggering up the threads doing it, though.

[Norman D Gutter]

Nice graphics, Rob.

I don't care much one way of the other about password protection. Having it or not having it wouldn't change my participation. So I voted both 1 and 2. It seems to me the forum is working well the way it is. I agree with the statements of others about clutter from combination and loss of frontpage time from increased traffic.

NDG

[poetinahat]

Right now, I'm leaning toward Option 2 or 9. (As one voter among everyone.)

I believe that as much as possible should be open. To me, that means anything that's not SYW: announcements, discussions, rate-a-poem, and games and exercises.

One could argue that the games and exercises would fit in the main Writing Games and Exercises thread. But unless there's some compelling reason to move them, I'd be inclined to leave them where people are used to seeing them.

[louisgodwin]

BTW, something I've always been curious about...I always get in without a password. Is that because of how I've bookmarked AW somehow?

I think it has more to do with AW's cookies probably. Mine does the same thing. But if I clear my cookies, I'll have to put in the password again.

2) Some people want password protection to keep their work safe from crawlers, so that it can still be considered unpublished by a publication interested in acquiring first rights.

For me, this is the only issue. I have no fears that someone would want to plagiarize or make other ill use of my poetry. My only worry is that if I decide to submit something for publication, an editor can do a simple google search and determine my poem has been previously "published" on the web.

[LimeyDawg]

Two. I'm still unsure as to why the password is an issue for humans. I mean, it's not debilitating as far as access goes. I understand its purpose for stopping web crawlers, but beyond that...is there another dealio?

[LimeyDawg]

You put Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more time into illustrating this poll than was warranted, sir.
Come on, Dirk. He had to justify spending that money on Visio somehow, lol.

[davids]

You know Rob-it is about change-but not this time for me at least-if you cannot type citrus-well-go empty the dishwasher

[scarletpeaches]

I don't have a dishwasher so I'll just have to play with my lemons!

[poetinahat]

And now, the tea break...

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/poetinahat/funny/lennonwineortea.gif

[kdnxdr]

That is so cool, Rob!

For me, the password protection issue was regarding the subject of what is technically considered a loss of 1st rights when it comes to publishing. SHOULD the possibility arise that anyone of us here on in the AW poetry forums ever have the opportunity to sell something for printing, Not having the poetry forums/rooms protected mucks it all up.

Call me silly, but that's been my concern.

[poetinahat]

Thanks, everyone, for voting and discussing.

The clear favorite was to leave the forum as is.

There is also a lot of feeling that more openness is required. So, what I'll do is ask for the Main and Discussion forums to be open. The Critique, Chapbook and Games forums will have password protection.

[P.H.Delarran]

I'm liking the new format except for these things:
-the three rooms that are password protected (critique, chapbook and games/prompts) have to be signed into seperately-that's clumsy.
-I don't see the password listed anywhere any more, I'm worried newer users may be missing out on those rooms.

[poetinahat]

Can't win 'em all, I guess.

Thanks for mentioning that, p.h. -- I'll make sure the password is on each forum.

[KTC]

Yes...but a true Guruji would make sure the forum is in each password. Therein lies the challenge. (Sadly nowherein lies the rub.)