Echelon Press

[Stlight]

Could anyone tell me how editors, reviewers, agents and publisher view Echelon Press? I'm not concerned with the reality of Echelon Press, but how it is perceived in the world. Thanks.

[HapiSofi]

Unless they've somehow had dealings with it, I doubt they're particularly conscious of it. There are lots of small presses, of varying degrees of cluefulness and legitimacy.

[Stlight]

Given that Echelon is relatively unknown, should I include them on the query and/or cover letter to an agent? Or will the unknown factor immediately click to self-publishing rather than small indy? Again, I'm speaking of perception. I know Echelon is small indy, but I'm not pretending that I can persuade someone who thinks they are self that they are not.

[James D Macdonald]

Legitimate small press? Sure, include them. It won't take an agent more than two seconds to Google them up.

The rule for cover letters is to only include your three most recent, most impressive sales.

(If you don't have any sales, you don't need to mention that fact.)

[CaoPaux]

Presently closed to submissions. http://www.echelonpress.com/

[EllenG]

I sent them a MS a couple of years ago and got an encouraging email back. I waited 3 months, emailed them again, another encouraging email- the editor was just behind schedule. Finally after many months I emailed again and they were not interested in my MS. I wasted a lot of time on them and they are just POD.
Ellen

[victoriastrauss]

As with many small POD-based publishers, it's my impression that Echelon has very limited ability to market and distribute its books (i.e., this is another of those publishers whose books rarely get bookstore placement). There are also some nonstandard aspects to its contract.

- Victoria

[writerjenn]

I have a novella with Echelon and while hearing back regarding my submission took a few months, it went off without a hitch. My SECOND submission was ignored, and that was after several attempts to find out if they were at least interested.

Advance to royalty statement time, and I received mine, only the royalties were based on the price of the much shorter Dollar Downloads, and again an email went ignored.

While the owners are working hard at getting their name out, and are starting to achieve a modecum of success, I think its the little things like this that are frustrating. I have not placed any further work with this publisher, although I know some writers are very, very happy with them.

Jenn

[kristin724]

I inquired to Echelon about two of my under 15k short stories for their downloads section. :banana: I queried about some of the details for the dollar downloads, including pay and rights.

They responded within the hour ( :cool: )with this:





Our download contract is set up on a scale.


The Author shall receive royalties based on the following schedule:

· 1 - 250 book sold 40 percent (40%) net price

· 251 - 500 book sold 45 percent (45%) net price

· 501 - up book sold 50 percent (50%) net price

Net is based on retail price minus actual distribution discount.

The above is structured this way because we sell via Fictionwise and they require a $15.00 advance formatting fee and also offer discounts its new titles.



Grant of Rights

The Author on behalf of herself and her heirs, executors, administrators, and successors exclusively grants, assigns, and transfers to the Publisher and its licensees, and successors, the rights to the Work for the period of two years from the actual date of publication, or longer with written agreement between the Author and the Publisher. This shall include all electronic formats, including future formats not yet invented.






I was a little unclear about the Grant of Rights so I emailed again asking how indefinite this 'all' was. :e2thud: Again within the hour:



We only have rights of any kind -- including future -- for the period of the contract.




They've inquired on both my stories and I a pretty sure about sending them. Any read flags based on these responses? Besides the net from a $2.50 download won't be much, it looks like a good contact. :e2arms:

??

[Toni1953]

A friend of mine has her book out through Echelon, and she seems quite pleased with them.


I sent them two manuscripts which were rejected. Right now they have two others of mine since November - no word yet.

[kristin724]

Another NJer woohoo!

[kristin724]

I submitted one today via email after several days of correspondence with the editor. Toni, I'd send a query email about the status of your submission. It's been almost three months, and she responded to my query very quickly.

Keep your fingers crossed!

Kristin

[Toni1953]

I just emailed her. Let's see what happens!

[Toni1953]

The editor emailed me back and said she hadn't gotten around to reading them yet.

[heatheringemar]

I just accepted a contract from them today (just sent the e-mail saying "yes," actually), so we'll see what happens! :)

[JeanneTGC]

I just accepted a contract from them today (just sent the e-mail saying "yes," actually), so we'll see what happens! :)

Congratulations! Keep us posted!

[heatheringemar]

So far, they seem to be a pretty nice group. A little slow on the e-mail response time, but I chalk that up to the holiday rush (I e-mailed just before Xmas). Still waiting on word of a release date for my work though.....

[Inspiewriter]

I had a piece included in one of their anthologies --"Crumbs in the Keyboard." The proceeds went to charity. I was very impressed with the books and found them in my local B&N.

[heatheringemar]

Well, not bad, not bad at all. I signed my contract in December, and yesterday I recieved my release information and my cover. I would have preferred a little bit more expedience on the e-mail replies, however, I kinda get the impression that everyone's juggling different duties, so that's cool. (Of course, I'm pretty new to all this, so I don't know the time averages on responses and such)

So far, I'm pretty happy with them. I might try out another publisher or two with some other fiction of mine, just to see how things go (and get a bit more experience, lol!), but so far I like Echelon and am pleased with how they run things.

[Toni1953]

Well, not bad, not bad at all. I signed my contract in December, and yesterday I recieved my release information and my cover. I...so far I like Echelon and am pleased with how they run things.



Firefingers, is your book an e-book or a print book?

[heatheringemar]

It's an e-book.

[heatheringemar]

I just finished the edits for my book that comes out tomorrow, and I think their editing is top-notch. Out of a (roughly) 5500 word MS, I caught only two misspellings in their version, no punctuation errors, and I thought their layout & design of the story was very nicely done.

No complaints here! :)

[RTH]

Any update on these guys recently? I noticed their ownership changed hands in 2005, so I wondered if Victoria's concerns are still valid? Any info appreciated.

Cheers,
RTH

[victoriastrauss]

Echelon has improved its contract, and Writer Beware hasn't gotten any recent complaints. However, it looks to me as if its distribution is still limited to wholesalers and direct-from-the-publisher orders.

- Victoria

[Toni1953]

I recently contracted with them for my novel, Witch's Pawn. I do know that the owner, Karen, works very hard on distribution, attends TONS of bookfairs, is constantly after the authors to work on promotion, has the print books placed thru Barnes & Noble. They do a lot of selling to libraries and independant bookstore.

[RTH]

Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me, for a micro press. I agree that the lack of a distributor (vs. wholesaler) is a problem, but it's a problem that all of these presses seem to share. The only one I can think of that's gotten around it is Samhain.

Thanks!
RTH

[EchelonPress]

It is interesting reading some of the notes about us. I thought I would offer up a bulleted list of some of the points covered over the years.

1. Still slow on e-mail responses. (That's just me, and I don't have an assistant.) :flag:

2. 3-6 months is not a long time to wait for a response on submissions. We state 3 months min.

3. In 2003-2004 our company was in a bad place, changing ownership, trying to stay afloat, and get a firm hold on the business practices as opposed to just calling ourselves a publisher.

4. We are internationally distributed by Ingrams (we have an indpendent account, not the LSI agreement.)

5. Other distributors include Brodart, Follett, Blackwells, White Hots (CAN), and Partners. There are several others who don't inventory, but we wholesale through them as demand requires.

6. We are a Borders vendor and we make every effort to get our titles into the BN system.

7. We are Amazon.com Advantage members and supply ALL paperback titles directly to them.

8. We still pay little itty bitty advances, but don't feel bad about it since our authors make money pretty much as soon as they start selling.

9. We are not totally closed to submissions, we accept submissions for eBook publication all the time. However, paperback publication submissions are by invitation or recomendation. See our web site for details on how to make that happen.

10. We are NOT primarily online/eBook as Absolute Write indicates in their listing. We do 12 paperbacks per month (sometimes more.) We utilize both offset printing and LSI's print on demand, but both receive EXACTLY the same inclusion and support. Every paperback that is published by us goes into paper and eBook. Our eBook line is broader in the regard that our stories range from 2500 - 100,000 in word count.

We are a traditional royalty paying publisher and not a vanity. The author is required to pay NOTHING to us for publication.

We market our books alongside the authors. And our cooperative adventures are not to be mistaken with the vanity/subisdy issue. We do 10-20 events (books festivals, fairs, etc. per year) and these are paid for cooperatively by the company and the authors and are BY CHOICE. NO AUTHOR is obligated to participate. It is their choice.

We do this as a courtesy to the authors to give them additional opportunities to sell their books that they might not be able to afford otherwise. And no publishing house is obligated to attend these festivals. We do it becasue we love reaching readers directly. (example of event: Printers Row Book Fair in Chicago in June. Tent cost $2100.00. No author will afford that on their own. We co-op. 20 authors, plus Echelon pay $100 each and get equal space to sell.

Okay, I am here for questions not answered above.

Karen Syed, President Echelon Press

[priceless1]

Hi Karen,
It's good that you're with all the warehouse distributors, but that doesn't sell books - it merely let's people know your books exist. You need an independent distributor who has their sales teams pitching your specific catalog to the genre buyers. Unless you have a distributor or you have garnered relationships with the libraries, indie stores (who are now taking about 6 months to a year to pay, by the way) or other specialty markets, your sales are going to be very small.

The book business is undergoing a lot of changes right now, and publishers have to be bullet proof to stay alive. The only way to be bullet proof is to have a lot of money to weather the massive returns that are currently taking place and have a great lineup of authors with great platforms. Stores are freaking, and their orders are in the tank. There has never been a more important time to be savvy about how book sales work. Getting your titles into everyone's systems isn't going to pay the bills.

[CaoPaux]

Welcome, Karen. I'll take off the "primarily ebook" highlight for the time being, although it may reappear if it's demonstrated more books are sold via download than POD.

[frandavea]

Lisa Fisherkeller, editor of Echelon's YA imprint, Quake, requested a full back in June. I've heard nothing since. Later, I noticed on the website some of the rather rigid guidelines when submitting a requested ms, which includes sending along your marketing plans for the book (seems like a lot of work for a ms they requested). Being excited someone even requested my ms, I sent it without doing those things. I'm wondering if failing to do so took my ms out of consideration.

[Deb Kinnard]

Sending along a marketing plan is becoming more standard than it once was. See Treble Heart Books' submission page for their recommendations. Plus, my agent recently sent out a full-MS submission to Harlequin on my behalf, and included a market analysis in the proposal package.

YMMV according to which small or large presses you are targeting, but from my chair, a request for a marketing plan seems more common. It's smart for the author to think along these lines as a way to be prepared for anything the presses include in their guidelines.

[victoriastrauss]

Wanting a marketing plan for fiction is not at all uncommon for smaller presses, because they tend to rely on their authors as an unpaid sales force. But it's not the norm among the larger advance-paying publishers--which do the kind of marketing that authors can't duplicate, even with the best will in the world.

- Victoria

[Deb Kinnard]

Victoria, since that's true, what is your take on Harlequin wanting such an analysis? Or is this becoming more common when agents send projects out on proposal?

[IceCreamEmpress]

Victoria, since that's true, what is your take on Harlequin wanting such an analysis?

Though I am not Victoria, I do know that the Harlequin/Mills and Boon folks don't automatically request that of all queriers/submitters to all their lines.

Your agent may have had a conversation with the editor of the particular line to which she's submitting your MS, or she may be going the extra mile to make your submission stand out.

The thing about Harlequin/M&B is that they give editors leeway to set different submission requirements for different lines.

[victoriastrauss]

Did Harlequin ask for the marketing plan, or did your agent include it on her own?

Harlequin's submission guidelines (http://www.eharlequin.com/articlepage.html?articleId=538&chapter=0) don't mention marketing plans.

- Victoria

[Deb Kinnard]

I believe my agent included it on her own--though when I kvetched about writing one, she did mention she viewed it as necessary. She didn't care for my first attempt, so I had to tweak it a bit. It felt to me like groping in the dark, since how do I know what they're acquiring now and how my project might stack up against those others?

I know this is OT for Echelon Press issues, but the general sense I get is that the demands on the author seem to be slowly increasing. I am no marketing genius and probably will not morph into one at this season of my life...what I do know how to do is write books, and I'm hoping that will be enough.

[Toni1953]

My book, Witch's Pawn, is coming out December 1 from Echelon Press. So far I am happy with them and impressed with the way Karen runs things. Don't forget, this is a small press and she does virtually everything on her own. If you're considering small press as a way to start your writing career Echelon is one of the best ones.

[Unimportant]

Don't forget, this is a small press and she does virtually everything on her own.

This is something that worries me about any one-person press. If that one person has any problems crop up -- an ill family member, a leaking roof on the house, a divorce, whatever -- the whole business shuts down. There's no one to communicate with the authors, or to carry on with the editing, or to make sure the books get released, or to deal with the printers, or to liaise with the distributors, or anything. IMO, a business in which one employee -- let alone the only employee -- is virtually irreplaceable is a disaster just waiting to happen.

[JRTurner]

I'm published with Echelon--just to get that out there :)

I wanted to respond to the idea that a one-woman show is riskier than a larger house. I disagree. If you look at Silhouette/Harlequin (really any house) they have imprints that rise and fall, lines that are discontinued all the time. The authors that write for the imprint or line may find themselves scrambling for a new line, imprint, or even a new publisher.

There are no guarantees either, that the editor you're writing for today will be there tomorrow--or that his or her replacement will even like your style or writing.

So even with a large house, there is no guarantee that what you're doing now will translate into a life-long career. Many authors begin somewhere and end up elsewhere. This is not new.

What is important, I believe, is to make the best decisions you can with your career. Simply because a house has a lot of staff and has been around a while (Publish America) doesn't mean they are a better option than a publisher with fewer employees.

If I had to choose between some of the glorified vanity presses and staying unpublished--I'd stay unpubished.

If I had to choose between some of the smaller, independent publishing houses and staying unpublished--I'd choose to be published.

Which of course, is what I chose--as I already mentioned, I'm published with Echelon :)

Warmly,
Jenny:)

[veinglory]

There is a difference between absolute guarantee and relative risk. I think it is very true that one person presses fail more often than those with multiple staff. As witness Harlequin is still with us but about half of the one person presses seem to close within year.

[victoriastrauss]

Exactly. With the one-woman or one-man shows, there's no backup--if they aren't doing it, it doesn't get done. But at a larger publisher, there's always someone to fill in--if your editor leaves, for instance, you'll be passed on to another editor. That's often not an ideal situation, of course (I speak from experience), but the point is that there are other staff to take up the slack so that everything doesn't grind to a halt.

- Victoria

[JRTurner]

I think the point i was making was that there is no guarantee that the publisher with a large staff is going to continue publishing what you write. For instance, where is the Bombshell line for Silhouette these days? They had a pretty specific style and type that wouldn't fit ANY of the other Silhouette imprints.

Sure, some of those authors will be able to find a new home within Silhouette--if they change their subject matter/plotting and have a good/strong relationship with someone willing to go to bat for them. Everyone else is back at the query stage. Which would be no different for the author published by a one-person publishing house where the one-person is forced to close the company.

In other words, the risk isn't any different for the author. In fact, it could play in the author's favor--suggesting that the author is out of a publisher through no fault of their own--rather than bad sales leading to them being dropped by the publisher.

If Echelon folds, I'll be in the exact same position as those who have found themselves 'pounding pavement' again after a line or imprint from a larger house has closed or an editor left for personal reasons.

And too, there ARE other people on staff at Echelon. Simply because Karen Syed is in charge doesn't mean there isn't a great group of editors, illustrators, and others that are involved with the company. Karen simply makes sure to be the "acquiring editor" to control the quality and integrity of Echelon.

Hope that clarifies ;)

Warmly,
Jenny:)

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

True there are no guarantees, but I think the point being made is that there's a greater risk when it's a one-woman/man show.

[JRTurner]

True there are no guarantees, but I think the point being made is that there's a greater risk when it's a one-woman/man show.

Exactly.

But what I'm arguing is that while the odds might be higher--the cost is exactly the same.

A person who loses their publishing house--for whatever reason--is back at square one again with a publishing history.

A person who never had a publishing house--for whatever reason--is on square one with no publishing history.

Does that make more sense?

That's why above I mentioned that I'd rather be published with a smaller house than with a larger scam-house or not at all.

What it boils down to is who you decide you want to be affiliated with, and hopefully one makes an informed choice. It can be hard sometimes, figuring out what you need to know--it's a question about what you don't know to ask. Others are too rash and jump in.

I wrote a book for the Bombshell line right before it folded. I shopped it elsewhere, but if you're familiar with the line, it was supposed to be more about the action, but still have a strong romance. This made my book almost untouchable elsewhere. Not enough romance for the romance market--too much romance for the action market.

Echelon ended up publishing that book. Echelon is still here. Bombshell isn't.

Had I been picked up by Bombshell--not only would I be out of a line to write for, but my book would no longer be in print today, as it is with Echelon.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that you should worry less about the future of a company, and more about where it stands today. Is it reputable, well established, in good standing with their writers, etc. Which I think brings us full circle to what this thread was about to begin with. :)

Hope that helps clarify. I'm sometimes not as clear as I intend to be--working on that!

Warmly,
Jenny:)

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Exactly.

But what I'm arguing is that while the odds might be higher--the cost is exactly the same.

A person who loses their publishing house--for whatever reason--is back at square one again with a publishing history.

A person who never had a publishing house--for whatever reason--is on square one with no publishing history.

Does that make more sense?

That's why above I mentioned that I'd rather be published with a smaller house than with a larger scam-house or not at all.

What it boils down to is who you decide you want to be affiliated with, and hopefully one makes an informed choice. It can be hard sometimes, figuring out what you need to know--it's a question about what you don't know to ask. Others are too rash and jump in.

I wrote a book for the Bombshell line right before it folded. I shopped it elsewhere, but if you're familiar with the line, it was supposed to be more about the action, but still have a strong romance. This made my book almost untouchable elsewhere. Not enough romance for the romance market--too much romance for the action market.

Echelon ended up publishing that book. Echelon is still here. Bombshell isn't.

Had I been picked up by Bombshell--not only would I be out of a line to write for, but my book would no longer be in print today, as it is with Echelon.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that you should worry less about the future of a company, and more about where it stands today. Is it reputable, well established, in good standing with their writers, etc. Which I think brings us full circle to what this thread was about to begin with. :)

Hope that helps clarify. I'm sometimes not as clear as I intend to be--working on that!

Warmly,
Jenny:)

Oh no doubt, the cost is the same. And I totally agree about being published by a small legit house as opposed to a large scam. However, just because an imprint folds doesn't mean the company is a scam. But the question is where is it more likely to happen - a small press or a large one? True, imprints fold. Overall how hard books that were supposed to be published by that imprint have it in finding another home I'm not entirely sure. Though it obviously happens, as it has to you, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the norm. It may just be an unfortunate point about the industry that we all have to live with. But the point stands that a large house has the finances and the resources to get through something like an imprint not working out. If a small publisher doesn't work out, that's it. It's not like with someone like Harlequin, where books from one imprint could possibly still find success somewhere else in the publisher.

You do make a good point that one should look at the house in the now, but we should have some eye toward the future. Sure a house may be doing well now, but is what they're doing now going to mean they'll still be there in the future? That's an important question that needs to be asked regardless of the size of the publisher but perhaps more so for small ones. If I see a small publisher that is doing well now, but doesn't look like it'll still have steam in a few years I'd be less inclined to go that way, espeically if it would in some way affect my book.

I guess we just need to agree to disagree :)

[veinglory]

A person who has previously published with Harlequin is not IMHO in quite the same place as one who has previously published with a very small and defunct press. For a start they probably made about $30,000 dollars and so can sit down for a few months to write the next one.

[JRTurner]

However, just because an imprint folds doesn't mean the company is a scam.

Oh--of course not. Bombshell wasn't a scam. The only mention I made about a scam publisher was in regards to Publish America--making the point that just because a house has many employees, it doesn't make them legitimate.



But the question is where is it more likely to happen - a small press or a large one?


I believe already stated that the risk was higher that a small press would fold before a large one.



It may just be an unfortunate point about the industry that we all have to live with.


Exactly! :) That was the point I was trying to make. Big or small--crap happens. What do you want on your resume? Publish America? No publishing history? A few books with a respected small press?


But the point stands that a large house has the finances and the resources to get through something like an imprint not working out. If a small publisher doesn't work out, that's it.


I think that's a little like comparing apples to oranges--but it wasn't the point I was making. The point I was getting at was the risk factor to the author. Won't make a bit of difference if it's an imprint or a small press that folds--the writer will be back to finding a "home" regardless if it's with the same or a new publisher.


It's not like with someone like Harlequin, where books from one imprint could possibly still find success somewhere else in the publisher.


Actually, the imprints are pretty straight forward and separate from one another. I think too many people believe that what works for say, Harlequin Intrigue will also work for Harlequin Presents--or even switching to Silhouette for their Intimate Moments line. They all have very specific notes they must hit in order to fit in with the category.

Now, if the author chose to change their writing focus to meet those requirements, unless they have a solid backlist with the house, they'll still have to "audition" to write for that other imprint.


You do make a good point that one should look at the house in the now, but we should have some eye toward the future.

Of course! :) But deciding what their future chances of staying afloat are often tied heavily into what their business practices (and hence reputation) are like in the industry right now.

One can sign on with a reputable publisher today, and then later down the road be presented with a shoddy contract and a failing reputation within in the industry.

Sure, some true-blue publishers that have been around for decades will most likely set the trend, rather than fall victim to the trend, but there aren't enough publishing options for those of us starting out to believe we could ALL find homes with Random House or Simon and Schuster.



I guess we just need to agree to disagree :)

I have no problem agreeing to disagree--as long as we understand each other ;) I hope that I'm more understandable now! :)

Warmly,
Jenny:)

[JRTurner]

A person who has previously published with Harlequin is not IMHO in quite the same place as one who has previously published with a very small and defunct press. For a start they probably made about $30,000 dollars and so can sit down for a few months to write the next one.

Personal finances aren't exactly what I'm talking about. There are wealthy folks out there who don't need the income they make writing books to survive on. I'm not wealthy, but my husband is the bread winner--so I'm flexible on when and how much I make.

Here's an illustration I think sums up my point very well:

Harlequin Intrigue folds. A writer with them is now on the hunt for a new imprint/publisher. They target Silhouette Intimate Moments (SIM) as their next imprint/publisher.

Echelon press folds. I target SIM as my next imprint/publisher.

Silhouette Intimate Moments receives both queries on the same day. One of the queries is the exact story they were looking for to round out their fall releases.

Can you tell which one of us got the contract?

:)

Warmly,
Jenny:)

[victoriastrauss]

Jenny, it's not quite as simple as that (and if this was your own experience, rather than a hypothetical, I apologize).

If the author was previously commercially published, she may have an agent, and an agented submission trumps an unagented one, even at commercial publishers that are willing to look at unagented work. With commercial houses, you are always at a disadvantage without an agent, not least because your submission--no matter how excellent--will nearly always get lower priority.

Even if the author doesn't have an agent, it's likely that her query will be on top of the pile, simply because she has a previous commercial track record (i.e., she has proved she can write a commercially marketable book, or maybe more than one, and meet deadlines). If her numbers with her previous publisher were good--and publishers can easily access sales numbers through Neilsen Bookscan--she may look like a better bet, even if your submission is a good fit for the list. If, on the other hand, her numbers weren't great, or if they've fallen over her last couple of books, you may look like a better bet--you're new, or at least new to larger houses, but publishers often prefer a new author to an experienced one who hasn't been able to break out.

- Victoria

[Susan Gable]

Harlequin Intrigue folds. A writer with them is now on the hunt for a new imprint/publisher. They target Silhouette Intimate Moments (SIM) as their next imprint/publisher.

Echelon press folds. I target SIM as my next imprint/publisher.

Silhouette Intimate Moments receives both queries on the same day. One of the queries is the exact story they were looking for to round out their fall releases.

Can you tell which one of us got the contract?

:)

Warmly,
Jenny:)


The Harlequin author has an advantage -- because she's already got an editor in the house and a track-record. She's not going to have to query - she's going to be able to sell on proposal if her story and voice fits at another line.

Example - My very good friend, Holly Jacobs, whom I affectionately refer to as Holly the Line Slayer -- Holly has written for the following now-dead H/S lines: Harlequin Duets, Silhouette Romance, Harlequin Flipside, Harlequin Everlasting, ummm...some short-lived "special" projects that I don't even remember the name of at this point... She's currently writing for both Super and American.

She's had the same editor since she sold her first Duet. Her editor likes Holl's work, and so helps her find a new home when she needs to. Holly's got a strong record, too, and that helps a lot.

So, I say the person who gets orphaned having been pubbed with a large house has a leg up on the person pubbed with a smaller press -- it's a stronger resume. Yes, in the end, the story has to work for the new place -- but the doors are opened easier to start with if you've got the stronger resume.

Susan G.

[JRTurner]

*Sigh*

Okay, I can see that this discussion is more about winning than it is understanding. Was I really that unclear?

Of course an agented author has a better chance anywhere--regardless of publishing history. That wasn't part of the equation however. Not all category romance authors have long histories with their publisher--but that is completely beside the point.

Just because someone is published with a smaller house doesn't mean they don't have an agent. In fact--some landed agents BECAUSE they were published with a smaller house. So why the assumption that the category author would have an agent (when many don't) and a small press author wouldn't?

Agent or no agent, history or no history, if an author queries a manuscript the house doesn't want to publish, one that doesn't fit their needs or correctly mold to their parameters, that book will not be published with that house.

And believe it or not, it IS a well known fact that authors previously published within one imprint will often have to 'audition' for another line. Their books aren't accepted sight unseen, storyline unknown.

In the end, I sincerely hope that no one here is suggesting it is better to not be published at all than it is to go with a respected and reputable small publisher. Or that if one has multiple books with a respected and reuptable small publisher it won't do the author any good on their resume.

Jenny

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

In the end, I sincerely hope that no one here is suggesting it is better to not be published at all than it is to go with a respected and reputable small publisher. Or that if one has multiple books with a respected and reuptable small publisher it won't do the author any good on their resume.

Jenny

I think maybe we're doing a lot of talking, but not necessarily seeing it from the other pov. Or just a case of different viewpoints. Probably the latter :)

You'll find that no one here is opposed to small presses, at all. But what has seemed to stand out to me since I've been here is that there have been A LOT of small presses that have come and gone throughout the industry. So people tend to be a little more critical of a small press than a medium or large one. It's not so much a matter of being against them as making sure they are one of those small publishers who actually do make it in the industry. That's the impression I've always gotten around here, anyway and the only reason that stands out to me as to why small presses are so questioned. Many folks here have great experience in publishing; they know what to look for in determining what's good and what's bad. Ultimately folks just want to make sure what Echelon's doing is good. And we seem to have gotten sidetracked on the risks of publishers or imprints going under :)

[veinglory]

Of course going with a reputable small press is better than not being published (um, as witness my 15 novellas and three novels all with small presses). But it is equally clear that going with a reputable large press is better (in most measurable ways) than going with a small press. I think both points need to be accepted in full rather than just one or just the other.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Harlequin Intrigue folds. A writer with them is now on the hunt for a new imprint/publisher. They target Silhouette Intimate Moments (SIM) as their next imprint/publisher.

Echelon press folds. I target SIM as my next imprint/publisher.

Silhouette Intimate Moments receives both queries on the same day. One of the queries is the exact story they were looking for to round out their fall releases.

Can you tell which one of us got the contract?

All other things being equal, Harlequin/Mills & Boon editors would give a leg up to an author who had already published with the parent company. Having already had the experience of working with one H/M&B line is considered an advantage when you're submitting to a different line.

Of course, no two queries are equal: if the editor liked the query from the person who had never published with H/M&B before more than the one from the H/M&B author, she'd choose the new author's query.

But having published previously with another H/M&B line gives writers more cred there than having published previously with an unrelated small press. Having published previously with an unrelated small press may give writers more cred than never having published before, but not as much as having published with H/M&B before.

[JRTurner]

Of course, no two queries are equal: if the editor liked the query from the person who had never published with H/M&B before more than the one from the H/M&B author, she'd choose the new author's query.



Exactly the point.

Thank you.

All this talk about how worse off someone is if their small publisher folds is useless worry.

The only thing that matters is the author's reputation and having the right book at the right time in the right place.

The rest vascillates so much (agent-no agent, sales record--no sales record, previous history-no previous history, an editor on your side-one that hates your writing-no editor at all) that we can do nothing but speculate here.

My point is still made.

It is better to be published with a small reputable press than with a publisher who is 'black listed' or not at all.

Offering no-brainers like being published with a major house is better doesn't change anything here.

I've agreed with every point made--yet none has contradicted the point I've made at all, but somehow I get the impression there are those who think I'm arguing with them.

I'm not.

I'm saying something completely different than what others are arguing.

For example:

1) I have stated plainly that authors with an agent will have a leg up.

2) I have stated plainly that it's better to be published with a larger house.

3) I have stated plainly that inside connections and a history with a publisher will give that author a leg up.

4) I have stated plainly that those who have published with a larger house will have a stronger resume.

All I've asked for is understanding--not agreement.

At this point, I'm willing to retract my request and simply be finished with this. I don't want my frustrations about failing to be clear to bring negativity to an Echelon thread. The company and the people who are a part of it work too hard for something I say to diminish that effort.

Thank you all for your input.

Jenny

[veinglory]

That is where we continue to disagree. People who went with Triskelion (reputable at the time) might have found that kind of worry rather useful--because the problems continue even thought that small press has been closed for months. That and the other 20 small romance publishers that closed int eh last 10 years whilst no large romance press, to my knowledge, folded in the same period.

[JRTurner]

That is where we continue to disagree. People who went with Triskelion (reputable at the time) might have found that kind of worry rather useful--because the problems continue even thought that small press has been closed for months. That and the other 20 small romance publishers that closed int eh last 10 years whilst no large romance press, to my knowledge, folded in the same period.

You're confusing me.

You wrote earlier:

"Of course going with a reputable small press is better than not being published..."

And now you're saying that people shouldn't go with a reputable small press?


Jenny

[victoriastrauss]

I think that maybe where we differ is in our definition of a reputable small press--by which I mean not a small press that abides by its contract terms and does not screw its authors, but a small press that is generally recognized as a professional publishing credit. In my opinion--and I truly don't mean to cause offense by saying this--this is an open question with publishers like Echelon, and probably would be decided on a case by case basis (i.e., some big-house editors might feel it was a foot in the door, but others might not).

- Victoria

[veinglory]

I followed that with second sentence and said both were equally important. So I see no basis for confusion. i.e. "But it is equally clear that going with a reputable large press is better (in most measurable ways) than going with a small press. "

I have no real opinion about Echelon but I do find it confusing that small and large press would be considered equally safe and equally profitable when they clearly aren't. I feel what is confusing is equating "better than nothing" with "as good as Harlequin" when the lmngevity and earning power of a Harlequin are empirically known and better than Echelon--albeit that Echelon is better than nothing on both counts (and indeed quite impressive on the scale of a small press).

[JRTurner]

I think that maybe where we differ is in our definition of a reputable small press--by which I mean not a small press that abides by its contract terms and does not screw its authors, but a small press that is generally recognized as a professional publishing credit. In my opinion--and I truly don't mean to cause offense by saying this--this is an open question with publishers like Echelon, and probably would be decided on a case by case basis (i.e., some big-house editors might feel it was a foot in the door, but others might not).

- Victoria

Huh?

Now I'm really confused.

You say you disagree with me...

Can you show me where I stated that big-house editors offer small press authors a foot in the door?

Jenny

[veinglory]

When you said a small and large/in house press previous publication would be given the same weight.

[JRTurner]

I followed that with second sentence and said both were equally important. So I see no basis for confusion. i.e. "But it is equally clear that going with a reputable large press is better (in most measurable ways) than going with a small press. "

I have no real opinion about Echelon but I do find it confusing that small and large press would be considered equally safe and equally profitable when they clearly aren't.

What?

Is there something missing here?

Can you show me where I said that a small press is equally safe and profitable as a large press?

Did you not see where I stated that a large press is safer and profitable than a small press (at least) twice now?

Jenny

[JRTurner]

When you said a small and large/in house press previous publication would be given the same weight.

Where did I say that?

I never said that.

Please quote me.

Jenny

[victoriastrauss]

Can you show me where I stated that big-house editors offer small press authors a foot in the door?

No, I can't. I don't think you did say that. Nor do I think I said you did. I was just pointing out that as far as establishing a professional publishing track record, not all small presses are equal. Which seemed relevant to the issue of whether a big-press author whose imprint folds is in the same position as a small press author whose publisher folds.

- Victoria

[JRTurner]

No, I can't. I don't think you did say that. Nor do I think I said you did.

So when I was confused about what you disagreed with me on and asked for clarification...

You responded with a disagreement about an argument you didn't think I made?


I was just pointing out that as far as establishing a professional publishing track record, not all small presses are equal. Which seemed relevant to the issue of whether a big-press author whose imprint folds is in the same position as a small press author whose publisher folds.

- Victoria

And you believe I've made statements opposite to the above?

I believe I've mentioned more than once that an author needs to protect their reputation and choose carefully which house(s) they want to be associated with.

Isn't what you're saying above simply a reiteration of a point I already made?

And if it is, then why do you believe we're in disagreement?

Jenny

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I think what it is is that some are under the impression that someone who's published by a large house's imprint and someone else who was published by a small house where both have folded are on even playing ground. Victoria is saying that's not necessarily the case, since not all small houses are considered stepping stones and even that differs from agent to agent (and publisher to publisher). On a lot of other points it seems everyone's pretty much in agreement, it's just that everyone says it differently.

[JRTurner]

I think what it is is that some are under the impression that someone who's published by a large house's imprint and someone else who was published by a small house where both have folded are on even playing ground.

I didn't say they were on an even playing ground.

I said that they were in the same position in that they both had to find new homes.

I said that whatever book they wrote to gain that new home would be measured on its quality and appropriateness for the house.

I said that no amount of publishing history or lack thereof, or agent or lack thereof, would make the wrong book right for a publisher.

Is there anything in the above you disagree with?


Victoria is saying that's not necessarily the case, since not all small houses are considered stepping stones and even that differs from agent to agent (and publisher to publisher). On a lot of other points it seems everyone's pretty much in agreement, it's just that everyone says it differently.

Y'know, maybe a lot of confusion would be avoided if people would check to make sure what they're disagreeing with was actually offered up for argument.

If you say, "Dark chocolate is an antioxidant."

And I say, "No, I disagree. Hamburgers are fattening." We're going to get nowhere fast.

Jenny

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I didn't say they were on an even playing ground.

I said that they were in the same position in that they both had to find new homes.

I said that whatever book they wrote to gain that new home would be measured on its quality and appropriateness for the house.

I said that no amount of publishing history or lack thereof, or agent or lack thereof, would make the wrong book right for a publisher.

Is there anything in the above you disagree with?

I pretty much agree with everything here you're saying. The only thing I don't 100% agree with is your third statement, since what Victoria and others seem to be saying is that in some cases someone published by a company's imprint would have an advantage over someone printed by a small press. I think we can all pretty much agree that in the publishing world, there are few absolutes :) In a way, I'd say you're both right.


Y'know, maybe a lot of confusion would be avoided if people would check to make sure what they're disagreeing with was actually offered up for argument.

If you say, "Dark chocolate is an antioxidant."

And I say, "No, I disagree. Hamburgers are fattening." We're going to get nowhere fast.

Jenny

Very true. Maybe we're all just getting too hung up on specifics and hypothetical situations. Bottom line, I guess what probably should be pointed out is that one just needs to have a lot more scrutiny with regards to a small house, and perhaps pay a little more attention to their overall standing in the industry. Echelon may very well be a great publisher, there are just some elements that make some of the more seasoned members here a little unsure about its future. That doesn't automatically translate to bad publisher, just that extra caution is needed.

[victoriastrauss]

And you believe I've made statements opposite to the above?

No. I wasn't talking about you at all. As before, it's a big leap from what I actually said to this interpretation.

Jenny, it seems to me that you keep changing the ground of the discussion with these personal challenges. Twice now, you've read meanings into my words that I didn't intend, and honestly don't thinnk were there. I think this could be an interesting discussion, but I don't want to have to keep defining my words or explaining that I don't believe what you suspect me of believing.

- Victoria

[veinglory]

Except that I don't feel very many people in this discussion are actually confused... except when their words get turned around of selectively quoted.

[Unimportant]

I think everyone agrees:
1) It's better to be published with a large commercial press (e.g. Mills and Boone) than a small press (e.g. Samhain)
2) It's better to be published with a reputable small press (e.g. Samhain) than a vanity press/crap press/no press at all (e.g. PublishAmerica).
3) "Reputable small press" doesn't have a simple definition, and so has to be figured on a case-by-case basis.

Is Echelon Press a reputable small press that agents and editors at large commercial presses would consider a good publishing credit? That seems to be the relevant question for this thread. All the rest is just hand-waving and bear-baiting. (IMO, of course.)

[James D. Macdonald]

One question editors will ask, when picking up a previously-published author is, "Does this person have a fan base? If so, how large?"

[Unimportant]

James, how large is large enough? Like, say a Mundania Press author was trying to interest Tor in his book -- what kind of sales numbers would make Tor look twice?

[James D. Macdonald]

James, how large is large enough?

That probably changes from day to day, and has a large component of sell-through.

[JRTurner]

I pretty much agree with everything here you're saying. The only thing I don't 100% agree with is your third statement, since what Victoria and others seem to be saying is that in some cases someone published by a company's imprint would have an advantage over someone printed by a small press. I think we can all pretty much agree that in the publishing world, there are few absolutes :) In a way, I'd say you're both right.

*sigh*

Please try to understand my frustration here.

I don't believe that a small press author's resume will be equal to that of a large press author. I do believe that a large press author published by that company's imprint will have a leg up over the small press author.

I have never said any different.

I have been accused of saying different.

And now others are believing that I've said different based on that accusation when I've repeatedly made it clear I am not.

You are disagreeing with me based on something I didn't say.

That is frustrating.

I don't particularly like the position of having to defend myself against false accusations and have tried my best to handle it politely. I expected a simple, enjoyable discussion-not a battle.

How in the world does saying no amount of credentials will make the wrong book right for a publisher suddenly translate into meaning all resumes are equally alike, all writers are exactly equal, or all industry connections are equal?



Very true. Maybe we're all just getting too hung up on specifics and hypothetical situations. Bottom line, I guess what probably should be pointed out is that one just needs to have a lot more scrutiny with regards to a small house, and perhaps pay a little more attention to their overall standing in the industry.

Exactly what I stated in the beginning. Exactly what I said when an author needs to be careful about who they choose to be affiliated with. Exactly what I meant when I stated authorss need to make informed choices. Exactly why I'm so confused about why people are disagreeing with me by reiterating the same thing I stated.


Echelon may very well be a great publisher, there are just some elements that make some of the more seasoned members here a little unsure about its future. That doesn't automatically translate to bad publisher, just that extra caution is needed.

Ahhhh, I see. You think because I'm new to Absolute Write that I'm new to the industry. I've been around for 10 years now, so it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. I too believe that extra caution is needed when deciding to use a company you're unfamiliar with.

We've all agreed that it's better to go with a reputable small press (which Echelon is--I've seen it first hand) than it is to not be published at all.

Personally, I don't believe that we should make choices based on fears about the unknown future but choose based on the realities of the present.

Like buying a house--find out if it's in a floodzone, have it inspected, know the longevity of the heating and cooling system, etc.

No one would refuse to buy a solid home because they feared that one day, a tornado might come along and destroy it. If that were the case, Oklahoma and Kansas would be void of human life.

Which goes back to my point about 'crap happens' --no matter where you're published.

I carry this little saying from a fortune cookie around in my wallet, it reads: Don't be pushed by your problems, be led by your dreams.

So to me, if you've done your homework, if you've dedicated yourself to becoming the best writer you can be and dilligently improve your craft, if you've taken the time to learn the industry and make informed choices today--fearing what may or may not happen years in the future is a useless worry.

Worry about having all your eggs in one basket.

Worry about becoming stale as an author.

Worry about how you can write quality books that are publishable.

Worry about moving upward and strengthening your name.

Those are legitimate worries becuase they are based on what a person has power over--not on whether or not an act of God is going to leave you homeless.

Jenny

[Sheryl Nantus]

I think it's sort of simple.

Can I find *** Press books in my local bookstore? (fill in the blank for any small micropress or small press publisher)

If not, do I really want to be with a publisher who can't get their books into bookstores and I have to depend totally on online sales, not to mention word-of-mouth? If they can't afford/don't want a distributor to get my book into stores outside of my local area (after I visit the stores personally and ask for them to order in copies) what are they doing for promotion? Are they repeating the mantra that books aren't sold in bookstores and trying to convince me that bookstores are a dying breed and WHO buys books in stores nowadays anyway? (er... me?) Are they making an investment in my book by doing a print run and putting money into promotion by sending out review copies and buying advertising?

To me, those are the questions to ask.

But that's just me.

:D

[JRTurner]

No. I wasn't talking about you at all. As before, it's a big leap from what I actually said to this interpretation.

Jenny, it seems to me that you keep changing the ground of the discussion with these personal challenges. Twice now, you've read meanings into my words that I didn't intend, and honestly don't thinnk were there. I think this could be an interesting discussion, but I don't want to have to keep defining my words or explaining that I don't believe what you suspect me of believing.

- Victoria

Look, I have been saying the very same thing since I came onto this thread.

Others have implied or flat-out stated that I have said things I have not.

Others have chosen to change 'the grounds of the discussion' to disagree with arguments that were never made.

When I asked for the clarification because I was confused, that was not a challenge--it was a request for clarification because I was being challenged, and being challenged based on a position I never took.

This is what you wrote:

I think that maybe where we differ is in our definition of a reputable small press--by which I mean not a small press that abides by its contract terms and does not screw its authors, but a small press that is generally recognized as a professional publishing credit. In my opinion--and I truly don't mean to cause offense by saying this--this is an open question with publishers like Echelon, and probably would be decided on a case by case basis (i.e., some big-house editors might feel it was a foot in the door, but others might not).

Can you show me where I said anything different? You begin with: "I think that maybe where we differ..."

To me, that is saying what will follow will be different from what I've offered.

To me, it reads like everything I've already stated--or have never made an opposite statement too.

Can you see how that could be frustrating for me?

Jenny

[JRTurner]

Except that I don't feel very many people in this discussion are actually confused... except when their words get turned around of selectively quoted.

Are you saying this because you couldn't find the statement you falsely attributed to me?


When you said a small and large/in house press previous publication would be given the same weight.

Jenny

[JRTurner]

I think it's sort of simple.

Can I find *** Press books in my local bookstore? (fill in the blank for any small micropress or small press publisher)

If not, do I really want to be with a publisher who can't get their books into bookstores and I have to depend totally on online sales, not to mention word-of-mouth?

Here's some real questions I can answer.

At Echelon, your books will be carried in indepenent book stores affiliated with Echelon. They will most likely be carried in your local book stores. Your books can be carried in bookstores.

But no, like with almost ALL small presses, they won't have the distribution of Random House or Simon and Schuster.

So if you want your book availabel at Walmart, than I would advise you to continue trying to get your booked picked up by the major publishers and avoid everything else.

Echelon is not based on totally online sales either. I do well there, but it's not the only way my books reach customers.

As to word-of-mouth--welcome to the industry! :) You will be expected to promote yourself no matter where you're published. You will also need to rely on word-of-mouth because it is the single most successful method of advertising on the planet.


If they can't afford/don't want a distributor to get my book into stores outside of my local area (after I visit the stores personally and ask for them to order in copies) what are they doing for promotion?

Echelon has standard discounts and return policies. I have never had a problem with bookstores being unable to bring in books for a signing or order them to carry on their shelves. Even when I planned an event for the following week, my books were there on time.

As to what they're doing for promotion--that's the real appeal of Echelon.

I have never heard of, or seen, a small house like Echelon do so very much for their authors. Not only do they arrange discounts for advertising for us, ways for us to network to share costs of traveling and what not, (none of which is mandatory--but it's nice if your publishing house says, "If you're going to attend Love is Murder this year, we can pair you up with another author if you want to split hotel costs") but they do a TON of promotion completely free to me.

My books have been listed in targeted catalogues, postcards and announcements are sent for debut releases, advertisements in magazines, advanced reviews are gotten from published authors OUTSIDE of Echelon, they are presented at conferences, conventions, book fairs that I don't attend. There's much more--but just this little bit is far above what many small publishers offer.


Are they repeating the mantra that books aren't sold in bookstores and trying to convince me that bookstores are a dying breed and WHO buys books in stores nowadays anyway? (er... me?)

No. Echelon has great relationships with bookstores and encourages everyone to do signings on a regular basis.


Are they making an investment in my book by doing a print run and putting money into promotion by sending out review copies and buying advertising?

Well, I answered the second half of this above, but let me respond to the print run:

I believe it's just been last year that Echelon has started doing print runs for some of it's better known authors and has plans to expand that as they grow.

To me, those are the questions to ask.

But that's just me.

:D

They are great questions to ask :) I'm a big advocate for making informed choices.

Jenny

[Karen Duvall]

I have a short story published with Echelon. It came out last August, which was one year and five months after I signed the contract. The contract stated the story would be published 1 year after the contract was signed, but that's not what happened, so it was a breach of contract and I could have pulled the story. I probably should have. Maybe this is just how it works there with short stories, but I won't be sending them anything else in the future.

[JRTurner]

Sorry you had a bad experience, Karen. Hope your story found success anyway ;)

Jenny

[veinglory]

Are you saying this because you couldn't find the statement you falsely attributed to me?

Jenny

"If Echelon folds, I'll be in the exact same position as those who have found themselves 'pounding pavement' again after a line or imprint from a larger house has closed or an editor left for personal reasons."

[JRTurner]

"If Echelon folds, I'll be in the exact same position as those who have found themselves 'pounding pavement' again after a line or imprint from a larger house has closed or an editor left for personal reasons."

Yes... exactly. That is what I said.

Not what you falsely attributed to me:


When you said a small and large/in house press previous publication would be given the same weight.

I did not say that acquiring editors would give their previous publication histories the same weight. I made no mention of acquiring editors at all.

Each author pounding the pavement will have to compete on the strength of their manuscript and on the strength of their resume.

They are both in the same position.

Is that clear now?

Jenny

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

*sigh*

Please try to understand my frustration here.

I don't believe that a small press author's resume will be equal to that of a large press author. I do believe that a large press author published by that company's imprint will have a leg up over the small press author.

I have never said any different.

I have been accused of saying different.

And now others are believing that I've said different based on that accusation when I've repeatedly made it clear I am not.

To be honest, I don't recall you indicating this at all, which is why I felt the need to point it out (I can't speak for any others). Perhaps I missed it, and if I did so I apologise. But I do not recall this being made clear at all.

You are disagreeing with me based on something I didn't say.

That is frustrating.

I don't particularly like the position of having to defend myself against false accusations and have tried my best to handle it politely. I expected a simple, enjoyable discussion-not a battle.

I can understand that. Either I've misunderstood your points (entirely possible), or you're not making them clear enough (also entirely possible). Personally I plan on looking back over all of this to see if I've misunderstood. Battle I think is a little dramatic though. Heavy discussion sure. Debate perhaps. But battle? Not really. I can see that you feel like everyone's ganging up on you, I really do. I'm sure that's probably how you're feeling (correct me if I'm wrong here). Me personally though, I've been trying to see both sides here. I'm not trying to gang up on anyone and it really looks like a lot of what everyone, including you, is saying is the same thing said differently.

How in the world does saying no amount of credentials will make the wrong book right for a publisher suddenly translate into meaning all resumes are equally alike, all writers are exactly equal, or all industry connections are equal?

Because (IMO, anyway) saying that no amount of credentials will make the wrong book right for a publisher could be interpreted to say just that. I admit I sort of interpreted it like that. Obviously this is a case of misunderstanding then.

Ahhhh, I see. You think because I'm new to Absolute Write that I'm new to the industry. I've been around for 10 years now, so it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. I too believe that extra caution is needed when deciding to use a company you're unfamiliar with.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about me. I had no presumptions about you or your credentials, and didn't intend the post as such. I had no knowledge of your experience level, and only said what I did to explain the situation. Now you're reading into things and jumping to conclusions.

I'm stepping out of this now, as I think some of what I've been saying isn't being heard. Maybe that's part of the issue here, a lot of people talking but no one really listening. I do sincerely wish you the best of luck.

[veinglory]

Battle suggests two sides. I have no agenda re: Echelon, and support the small press with my time, websites and own manuscripts. I feel the key confusion here might be in attributing agendas and animosity where there is none.

[JRTurner]

To be honest, I don't recall you indicating this at all, which is why I felt the need to point it out (I can't speak for any others). Perhaps I missed it, and if I did so I apologise. But I do not recall this being made clear at all.

Here are the statements I've made:

"Sure, some of those authors will be able to find a new home within Silhouette--if they change their subject matter/plotting and have a good/strong relationship with someone willing to go to bat for them."

"Now, if the author chose to change their writing focus to meet those requirements, unless they have a solid backlist with the house, they'll still have to "audition" to write for that other imprint."

"3) I have stated plainly that inside connections and a history with a publisher will give that author a leg up.

4) I have stated plainly that those who have published with a larger house will have a stronger resume."

"I don't believe that a small press author's resume will be equal to that of a large press author. I do believe that a large press author published by that company's imprint will have a leg up over the small press author."

I don't know how much more clear I can be.


I can understand that. Either I've misunderstood your points (entirely possible), or you're not making them clear enough (also entirely possible). Personally I plan on looking back over all of this to see if I've misunderstood. Battle I think is a little dramatic though. Heavy discussion sure. Debate perhaps. But battle? Not really. I can see that you feel like everyone's ganging up on you, I really do. I'm sure that's probably how you're feeling (correct me if I'm wrong here). Me personally though, I've been trying to see both sides here. I'm not trying to gang up on anyone and it really looks like a lot of what everyone, including you, is saying is the same thing said differently.

Thank you for that :)


Because (IMO, anyway) saying that no amount of credentials will make the wrong book right for a publisher could be interpreted to say just that. I admit I sort of interpreted it like that. Obviously this is a case of misunderstanding then.

Okay, I'll grant that it could be interpreted like that...but only if what you claim I'm doing below is what is happening to me throughout this thread--that people are making assumptions about what isn't being stated, rather than replying to what is being stated.


I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about me. I had no presumptions about you or your credentials, and didn't intend the post as such. I had no knowledge of your experience level, and only said what I did to explain the situation. Now you're reading into things and jumping to conclusions.

I'm stepping out of this now, as I think some of what I've been saying isn't being heard. Maybe that's part of the issue here, a lot of people talking but no one really listening. I do sincerely wish you the best of luck.

When you wrote:


Echelon may very well be a great publisher, there are just some elements that make some of the more seasoned members here a little unsure about its future.

The phrase "some of the more seasoned members here" read to me as if you didn't realize I was seasoned as well.

If that's not what you meant, then I do apologize for that. As I said, it's been frustrating for me, which does impact how I read. I'm working hard not to let it, but I'm only human in the end :)

Thank you though, and I do wish you the best of luck as well.

Jenny

[JRTurner]

Battle suggests two sides. I have no agenda re: Echelon, and support the small press with my time, websites and own manuscripts. I feel the key confusion here might be in attributing agendas and animosity where there is none.

I think where I began to think of this as a battle was when I had to spend so much time explaining the statements being attributed to me were not ones that I made. It then became a 'battle' to be understood.

Jenny

[victoriastrauss]

OK. Can we all agree that we said what we said and leave it at that? This argument is getting repetitive, and is also spinning farther and farther off-topic from the subject of the thread.

- Victoria

[Inspiewriter]

About 5 years or so ago I had a piece included in "Crumbs in the Keyboard," a collection of essays for writers pubbed by Echelon.

I was amazed and pleased when I walked into the local B&N one day and saw a table of the books sitting in the main middle aisle. That's my only experience with them, but it was a good one.

[frandavea]

[quote=EchelonPress;2524613]It is interesting reading some of the notes about us. I thought I would offer up a bulleted list of some of the points covered over the years.

:flag:

2. 3-6 months is not a long time to wait for a response on submissions. We state 3 months min.


Echelon's YA imprint, Quake, promptly requested a full manuscript after reading my query. That was nearly a year ago, and I've heard nothing since, despite several inqueries. Either they are really REALLY back-up, or they just don't bother to respond if not interested.

Prepare for a long wait.

[Deb Kinnard]

Probably way off-topic, but today at Chicago's Printers Row Book Fair, I ran into a tablefull of Echelon authors selling and signing. A delightful bunch of people. I was impressed also by the quality of the books themselves and of the promo items they had on-hand.

That said, this year's PRBF was publisher-shy and bookstore-scanty. I suppose it's the economy, but some of the bigger and smaller hitters from last year were absent this year.

If Echelon's overall quality matches what I saw today, I would rank them right up there for quality with any big publisher. The covers particularly were first-rate.

[veinglory]

Interesting as I was there with a friend and she picked up one of their books and said, as an aside, that it was one of the worst covers she had seen--so I guess it is a matter of taste. They were a nice, strong and positive presence at the event and one of the few publishers who turned up and tried to keep the event something more than a used-book sale. But I thought their books looked like fairly standard small press POD TPBs, I looked over the romance books and wasn't tempted to buy as the plot seemed a little well-worn to me.

[Deb Kinnard]

Lady, I wish I'd known you'd be there. We'd have met and done some snarking.

And it was almost a used book sale, and not as good a sale as in previous years.

[frandavea]

Echelon just offered me a contract for my YA novel. :) Apparently, they've been trying to contact me for a few months.

[frandavea]

Echelon just offered me a contract for my YA novel. :) Apparently, they've been trying to contact me for a few months.

Karen Syed called me and we had a great conversation, after which I signed the contract she sent. She's a really nice person, and very enthusiastic about what she does. And after doing a lot of research into Echelon, I'm convinced this is the right way to go.

I'm looking forward to working with her. This is will be my first published novel (though I didn't think it would be), and I think the experience will be fun.

[karo.ambrose]

Congrats Frandavea! And btw, I love the concept. Can't wait to read it.

So did you submit to Echelon sans agent?

[Deb Kinnard]

Congratulations, Frandavea! Always nice to see good news on the B&BC thread.

[frandavea]

Congrats Frandavea! And btw, I love the concept. Can't wait to read it.

So did you submit to Echelon sans agent?


No agent.

[frandavea]

I've been working with Echelon for roughly two months now, getting my first novel ready for publication in 2010, and I must say, though some of it has been hard work, the overall experience has been very satisfying. There's a lot of support from other authors in their stable, including some whom work as editors.

Contrary to what's been posted in the past, this is not a one woman operation. Yes, it's a small press, but one with big goals and a staff who works right along side the author to help achieve them.

My contract was 8 pages, but it was straightforward and clear with regard to what I should expect from Echelon and what they expect from me.

And let me tell you, their editors are fantastic. The one assigned to work with me (J.R. Turner) has helped turn a good book into a great one.

I have no illusions. With Echelon being a small press, I know the biggest hurdle ahead is getting the word out about my book, and there's a lot of hard work ahead, but the support behind me by Echelon has, so far, been outstanding.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I have a question (and it's purely out of curiousity, so please don't take this as a negative potshot at Echelon) about authors working as editors for the publisher they're published with. Is that considered an okay practice? The members here always stress that if you're going to hire an editor to make sure they have experience so you know they know what they're doing. Wouldn't the same sort of yardstick be applied to hiring authors as editors for the publisher? I mean how do you know the author is a good editor? I would imagine knowing basic editing and knowing how to be an editor would be two different things, and that's not to say some authors can't also be great editors.

[frandavea]

I have a question (and it's purely out of curiousity, so please don't take this as a negative potshot at Echelon) about authors working as editors for the publisher they're published with. Is that considered an okay practice? The members here always stress that if you're going to hire an editor to make sure they have experience so you know they know what they're doing. Wouldn't the same sort of yardstick be applied to hiring authors as editors for the publisher? I mean how do you know the author is a good editor? I would imagine knowing basic editing and knowing how to be an editor would be two different things, and that's not to say some authors can't also be great editors.

Well, strictly speaking from a personal point of view, I don't think it matters whether or not your editor happens to be an author with that same publisher. The goal is the same...to make the book as good as it can be. My editor has no personal stake in whether or not the book is successful. She was strictly concerned with what would make it a good read, such as pointing out the overuse of passive voice and dialogue tags, much like an other editor would do.

[ChrisKelly331]

Hey! I was wondering how long it takes for Echelon to respond to a full request? Kat (who is very friendly and very nice by the way) requested my manuscript exactly one month after I sent the query and so far it's been a little over one month since she's had it.

[frandavea]

Hey! I was wondering how long it takes for Echelon to respond to a full request? Kat (who is very friendly and very nice by the way) requested my manuscript exactly one month after I sent the query and so far it's been a little over one month since she's had it.

I don't know if this helps, but when my manuscript was originally requested, the person who asked for it quit shortly afterwards, and it was a long time before anyone at Echelon could find me.

Since then, they've been pretty responsive to my questions and concerns.

Echelon has a small staff, but this is an up-and-coming publisher and they work hard. I'd give them a little more time to consider your manuscript.

[Dreamer]

Are there any recent updates on Echelon Press?

[frandavea]

Are there any recent updates on Echelon Press?

Echelon Press is branching out a bit. In addition to its novels and YA imprint (Quake), they've launched Echelon Press Shorts, which features short fiction available for download.

[profen4]

Anyone else having difficulty trying to connect to this website?

[Dreamer]

i can't get in there either. Perhaps they are working on their website.

[frandavea]

We are all having trouble getting onto the site right now, even Echelon Authors. The imprint sites are all still working though, like www.quakeme.com

[profen4]

At least it's not my computer.

I wanted to see what kind of distribution they have. I can wait until the website is back up but if anyone knows that answer.... :)

There doesn't seem to be any info on the Quake site

[Dreamer]

If it is just technical difficulties, I will be relieved. They are in the process of reading one of my full manuscripts.

[frandavea]

What I do know is, as of right now, submissions are being considered for eBook publication only. CEO Karen Syed can correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure that paperback publication is reserved for authors they have already been working with, and by invitation only.

[Stlight]

I seem to remember that they had dollar downloads of short fiction back in 2002. I think they were novellas.

[Inspiewriter]

A friend just told me she's published several short stories in their "Shorts" program. I went to look at the guidelines and saw they wanted extensive marketing plans along with submission.

[profen4]

I went to look at the guidelines ...

You're able to get on their website? I still can't get on

[Dreamer]

I can't get on from home or work.

[Bushdoctor]

the link is broken indeed. I hope they havent collapsed because we have seen a lot of that over the last few years with epublishers

[CaoPaux]

Adding link to Shorts page: http://echelonpressshorts.wordpress.com/

[frandavea]

the link is broken indeed. I hope they havent collapsed because we have seen a lot of that over the last few years with epublishers

They have not collapsed. The CEO, Karen Syed, is currently addressing the broken link issue.

[Inspiewriter]

You're able to get on their website? I still can't get on


I was there about 2 weeks ago, I think.

[EchelonPress]

Hi All,

Been trying to catch up on all the notes in here. Echelon PRess is not collapsing, it does feel, however, like our site host is. We have been having major problems with the site going down and our e-mail was hacked by a phishing scheme. But I am on top of all this.

I wanted to address a few things.

We have had a major shitft in staff over the last month, lost several directors and editors and our blessed GM has resigned, so we are in a bit of a transition. WE have brought on several new folks to handle marketing for our various lines, so this should be a good thing!

Let me clarify that we are NOT accepting any submissions for paper publication at this time. We are aggressively seeking eBook submissions. The main reason for this is the decline in sales for the retail book industry. This is biting everyone and indies are getting hit hardest because most of our authors are newer and the readers are spendiong their hard earned dollars on the established A-list authors. This will eventually turn around and we will go back to paper.

For those of you concerned about no place to sell eBooks. Listen up! There are as many if not more venues to sell eBooks in and there is more money to be made on the sale of each unit. Now that we have Amazon's Kindle and Barnes & Noble's Nook, along with the Sony Reader, it is easier than ever to sell eBooks and the gross revenue for this industry is increasing DAILY!! So you might want to consider using these economic hard times to publish some eBooks and establish your reader base for when the industry goes back to paper publication on a grand scale.

Finally, submission response is a little slow right now because of all the shifting, but if it has been more than 60 days on something, send us a gentle note. AND, if you did NOT send a marketing strategy with your submission, know that your submission was probably deleted without consideration as our guidelines state will be done. Hard nose, but necessary.

Hope this clears up the questions.

Karen Syed, CEO
Echelon Press :hi:

[profen4]

This publisher came up in a conversation recently. Actually it was their imprint of QUAKE. I came here to follow up to see if anyone had any concerns about them, or knowledge about their sales figures, distribution ... etc, but couldn't find any info.

http://quakeme.wordpress.com/

Anyone have any experience with Quake?

[priceless1]

After talking to a number of their authors at several writer's conferences, I think authors would have a lot more success looking elsewhere.

[AuthorGuy]

After talking to a number of their authors at several writer's conferences, I think authors would have a lot more success looking elsewhere.

I've been an author with Echelon Press since 2002, and I have had no problems with them. I'd like to know which authors you spoke to and what they said, to be honest. There are plenty of authors everywhere who expect the publisher to do everything for them and get upset when they find out they can't just sit back and collect royalty checks.

[profen4]

I've been an author with Echelon Press since 2002, and I have had no problems with them. I'd like to know which authors you spoke to and what they said, to be honest. There are plenty of authors everywhere who expect the publisher to do everything for them and get upset when they find out they can't just sit back and collect royalty checks.

Author guy, the main criticism of micro presses like Echelon is that they don't get sales. That was what I assumed priceless was talking about, though I could be wrong. There are a few similar presses that have top notch marketing and actually manage to sell stuff, but they are the minority amongst their peers. Most don't crack three figures for sales and that's not exactly a great return for 3 months of work crafting a manuscript. If you can tell us otherwise, please do. Perhaps Echelon does get sales. Unfortunately, but understandably, finding authors willing to share their sales figures is tough.

[AuthorGuy]

Author guy, the main criticism of micro presses like Echelon is that they don't get sales. That was what I assumed priceless was talking about, though I could be wrong. There are a few similar presses that have top notch marketing and actually manage to sell stuff, but they are the minority amongst their peers. Most don't crack three figures for sales and that's not exactly a great return for 3 months of work crafting a manuscript. If you can tell us otherwise, please do. Perhaps Echelon does get sales. Unfortunately, but understandably, finding authors willing to share their sales figures is tough.

Wow, it only takes you 3 months to write a novel?

Anyway, the comment I responded to made it sound like EP was especially poor in some fashion, not that it's a generic flaw of small indie presses that they don't get high sales. Echelon has access to distributors like Ingrams, but since the authors aren't promoting their work the books get returned rather than sold. We have almost no access to bookstores except where authors do the work themselves for specific events. Stores are businesses looking to make money and don't want to hear about stocking a book that isn't trending, doesn't have a celebrity author, or doesn't come at a steep discount. These are factors affecting all publishers and authors, even mid-list authors nowadays, and I don't see why Echelon seemed to be getting singled out in this respect. I don't even know what 'look elsewhere' means. It's not like publishing is a seller's market.
My own sales are probably on the dismal side, since the only person I kow of selling the book is me. I formed a business as a bookseller precisely because other bookstores wouldn't carry my book. But if I want to cast blame anywhere I'd start with me, since I also fall into a coma when someones uses words like 'promotion' and 'marketing' in my direction. I can sell my book to someone standing in front of me, but mailing lists and tracking figures are beyond me. I can't even set up a blog tour. I tweet and I blog a good bit, but the best I do at promoting my blog is when I comment on other blogs.
Are my books, and all Echelon books, really good? I think so, and I've read them all. But how to tell you beyond doing what I just did, not a clue.

[Momento Mori]

AuthorGuy:
Echelon has access to distributors like Ingrams, but since the authors aren't promoting their work the books get returned rather than sold.

Authors shouldn't be promoting their work on their own. What does Echelon do to support them?

AuthorGuy:
We have almost no access to bookstores except where authors do the work themselves for specific events. Stores are businesses looking to make money and don't want to hear about stocking a book that isn't trending, doesn't have a celebrity author, or doesn't come at a steep discount.

Stores want discounts, yes, but more important is returanability terms and there are plenty of niche independent publishers out there that can negotiate terms sufficient to get some books into stores (and incidentally, it incentivises the publishers themselves to only publish books that they believe they can sell).

If Echelon cannot/is not willing to do that, then why is it in the business of print books? Why not focus on ebooks (where a number of smaller publishers manage to do pretty well for their authors in terms of sales figures).

AuthorGuy:
These are factors affecting all publishers and authors, even mid-list authors nowadays, and I don't see why Echelon seemed to be getting singled out in this respect.

I'm not singling out Echelon. I say the same thing about any small/start up publisher that takes print rights and then finds itself unable to maximise sales because it lacks the experience and/or capital to do what is needed to get books into stores.

AuthorGuy:
My own sales are probably on the dismal side, since the only person I kow of selling the book is me.

Which is exactly what should not be happening. Echelon should be out there selling your book - what does it do in terms of trade promotion, organising reviews, advertising, etc?

AuthorGuy:
I formed a business as a bookseller precisely because other booktores wouldn't carry my book.

You absolutely should not have to do that. If nothing else, it means you take on greater financial risk and for what - the margin on sales you make or royalties through third party sellers?

Some people are happy to subsidise their work because they're not interested in making money. You don't seem to fall into that category. If you're having to do all this then I have to wonder if the time has come for you to give up on that book and write another, better one with a view to securing commercial publication.

AuthorGuy:
Are my books, and all Echelon books, really good? I think so, and I've read them all. But how to tell you beyond doing what I just did, not a clue.

It's not just about quality - it's about getting it out there, which from your information seems to be exactly what Echelon has no ability/intention to do.

Really, you're better off going with an outfit like Lulu because at least then you keep control of what you're doing.

MM

[priceless1]

I'd like to know which authors you spoke to and what they said, to be honest. There are plenty of authors everywhere who expect the publisher to do everything for them and get upset when they find out they can't just sit back and collect royalty checks.
Obviously, I'm not going to name names, but I will say that these authors had some very odd stories about this publisher that go outside the purview of lack of distribution and store presence. I realize that no publisher can be all things to everyone, but having no distribution is a real problem. I will add that other common complaints were that books weren't delivered to stores for author events, and print runs weren't even done. Authors had to buy their own books in order to have them on hand for their events. There were also a lot of personal things that made a number of authors very uncomfortable.

I'm glad your experiences have been wonderful and that you've had no problems. That simply isn't the experience these other authors have had. Since they're quite successful, I find the information they've given me quite compelling.

[profen4]

Wow, it only takes you 3 months to write a novel?

With a few exceptions, I haven't heard of many people having a completed mss. in less than 3 months. I know its a range and some people work on novels for years.


Anyway, the comment I responded to made it sound like EP was especially poor in some fashion, not that it's a generic flaw of small indie presses that they don't get high sales.

Bolding mine. It's not. There are plenty of "small indie presses" that get sales by the thousands, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands. "small press" and "indie press" are not interchangeable, though a small press is typically an indie press. There are some VERY large indie presses that sell books by the millions.

Echelon has access to distributors like Ingrams, but since the authors aren't promoting their work the books get returned rather than sold. We have almost no access to bookstores except where authors do the work themselves for specific events.

That's the stuff people want to know about Echelon. Thank you for sharing.


Stores are businesses looking to make money and don't want to hear about stocking a book that isn't trending, doesn't have a celebrity author, or doesn't come at a steep discount. These are factors affecting all publishers and authors, even mid-list authors nowadays,

I walk into a book store and I don't know 99% of the names on the spines. Also, I don't think you need bookstore placement to make decent sales. I think authors/publishers can do well going after other venues. But I think the average author doesn't know how to do that, and the average micro-press doesn't either. I also think it should be expected that the author does some promotional work. They should develop the tools to promote themselves. That's why presses that have experience with marketing are so important. The author and publisher can work together to develop promotional strategies.


and I don't see why Echelon seemed to be getting singled out in this respect. I don't even know what 'look elsewhere' means. It's not like publishing is a seller's market.

There are just soooooo many micro-presses that you really need to look for ones that are setting themselves out to be ahead of the pack. You can judge those by their sales.


My own sales are probably on the dismal side, since the only person I kow of selling the book is me.

So echelon doesn't promote their titles at all?

[Sheryl Nantus]

Authors had to buy their own books in order to have them on hand for their events.

Red flag right here.

If the bookstore can't/won't order the books for a signing and YOU, the author, has to buy your own copies to sell then there's a problem.

[DreamWeaver]

I'd be interested in learning how it works. I've always assumed the convention acts as the bookstore, ordering the books, taking delivery, and running the cash registers. I know we have authors here with commercial publishers who have done signings at conventions, so I'm hoping one of them will chime in.

[frandavea]

Red flag right here.

If the bookstore can't/won't order the books for a signing and YOU, the author, has to buy your own copies to sell then there's a problem.

I'm an Echelon author, and I've never had to buy my own copies for a book signing.

[JRTurner]

Red flag right here.

If the bookstore can't/won't order the books for a signing and YOU, the author, has to buy your own copies to sell then there's a problem.

I don't know how the word "event" translated into "bookstore" but in no way do any Echelon authors have to buy their own books to sign in a bookstore. Ever.

Now, if an author decides that they want to go to their local cultural festival and rent a booth between the woodcarver and the yodeling doo-wap group, then they do have to purchase their own books--at their author discount.

Not sure if Tor/Forge or any other publisher for that matter simply fork over boxes of books to their authors for events like that. But there is no "red flag" when it comes to bookstore signings as far as Echelon is concerned.

Hope that clears it up.

[priceless1]

in no way do any Echelon authors have to buy their own books to sign in a bookstore. Ever.
I'm sorry, but that isn't true. I have spoken with three authors who ran into problems because they had events planned but no books. The publisher didn't have the funds to do the print runs (her words to them), and the only way she would/could do those print runs is if the authors bought the books.

I consider that to be a pretty red flag because it goes to their budget.

[JRTurner]

Obviously, I'm not going to name names, but I will say that these authors had some very odd stories about this publisher that go outside the purview of lack of distribution and store presence. I realize that no publisher can be all things to everyone, but having no distribution is a real problem. I will add that other common complaints were that books weren't delivered to stores for author events, and print runs weren't even done. Authors had to buy their own books in order to have them on hand for their events. There were also a lot of personal things that made a number of authors very uncomfortable.

I'm glad your experiences have been wonderful and that you've had no problems. That simply isn't the experience these other authors have had. Since they're quite successful, I find the information they've given me quite compelling.

Naming names or not, these accusations are very vague.

What does it mean that these unknown complaints from unknown authors fall "outside the purview of of lack of distribution and store presence."

Any author who sets up a book signing with a book store needs to make sure that the bookstore has ordered the books--or that there is time for the books to arrive before the event. If I know I'm going to be in Chicago day after tomorrow and decide to do a book signing there--it's pretty silly of me to think the bookstore will have actual books there. Most of the time, a lack of books at an event is the book sellers fault for not ordering them in time. Follow up is so important for any author.

Now if the bookstore contacts the author for an event--that's different. the bookstore is then responsible for ordering all books and in a timely fashion. This is basic career stuff any author should know. It sounds more to me like a bunch of first-time authors thought everyone else was going to do the work for them and then got pissy when everything wasn't perfect.

As far as print runs go--I know of no one who is guaranteed a print run when they choose to query a publishing house that uses POD technology. In fact, at the moment, Echelon doesn't even offer print publication. All queries are for ebook only. Was there some inability for these unknown, unnamed, disgruntled authors to read the submission guidelines that they expected print runs when they submitted?

What personal things are you referring to that made them "very uncomfortable"? This makes it sound like the professionals at Echelon Press are lewd and lascivious. There's a difference between sharing information, even second-hand hearsay on a public forum like this, and making such vague accusations they seem almost preposterous once they're addressed.

While you may find these supposed successful authors to be "quite compelling" I find your reiteration of their problems to be rather simplistic, inflammatory, and baseless.

But that's just my opinion.

[JRTurner]

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. I have spoken with three authors who ran into problems because they had events planned but no books. The publisher didn't have the funds to do the print runs (her words to them), and the only way she would/could do those print runs is if the authors bought the books.

I consider that to be a pretty red flag because it goes to their budget.

Pick an accusation and stick with it.

Lack of a print run does not equate lack of books at a signing event.

And I'm sorry--but it simply IS true that no author has to buy their own books.

If an author wants a print run the publisher is NOT offering them--mostly because the author hasn't proved they could even earn back their advance--then I'd say it's up to the author to pay for their own print run. The only red flag that raises is how ignorant the author is about how this industry works.

[DreamWeaver]

If an author wants a print run the publisher is NOT offering them--mostly because the author hasn't proved they could even earn back their advance--then I'd say it's up to the author to pay for their own print run.The only red flag that raises is how ignorant the author is about how this industry works.No. If the book is selling so badly that the publisher won't print it to sell, then the rights need to be returned to the author. Full stop. If the publisher hasn't made back the advance, that's a cost of doing business.

A publisher holding a non-selling book hostage and charging the author for printing copies is definitely vanity press behavior.

[JRTurner]

No. If the book is selling so badly that the publisher won't print it to sell, then the rights need to be returned to the author. Full stop. If the publisher hasn't made back the advance, that's a cost of doing business.

A publisher holding a non-selling book hostage and charging the author for printing copies is definitely vanity press behavior.

Totally agree.

Thank goodness that isn't the case with Echelon press.

Now, you do realize there's a difference between a publisher keeping a book available in print because they believe in an author--and a publisher acquiescing to the demands of an author to do a print run, despite the reality of their sales, right?

I'm sure you do.

[DreamWeaver]

No, I don't.

[JRTurner]

No, I don't. If they won't print it, it's not available.

Okay, let me explain it to you:

POD technology is used to keep books in print all the time. This means when a book is ordered from Amazon for print publication, the single copy is printed and mailed to the customer. This is not unusual with many traditional publishers.

A print run is where the publishing house forks over money and space to print a ton of books based on their projected sales for the author and the title.

If an author is great and the publisher believes they have a quality book, they may not do a print run for quite a while, if at all, until the author and/or the title proves one is merited.

If an author stomps their feet and demands to get a print run, regardless of their sales or experience in the industry, it is not up to the publisher to give in to those demands. They can, however, continue to make the book available according to the contract the author signed.

If the author wants their rights back, then there are channels that author can go through to get them back.

Is that more clear?

[Terie]

I have spoken with three authors who ran into problems because they had events planned but no books. The publisher didn't have the funds to do the print runs (her words to them), and the only way she would/could do those print runs is if the authors bought the books.

A print run is where the publishing house forks over money and space to print a ton of books based on their projected sales for the author and the title.

If an author is great and the publisher believes they have a quality book, they may not do a print run for quite a while, if at all, until the author and/or the title proves one is merited.

If an author stomps their feet and demands to get a print run, regardless of their sales or experience in the industry, it is not up to the publisher to give in to those demands. They can, however, continue to make the book available according to the contract the author signed.

What's clear to me is that your explanation exactly matches what Priceless1 said.

[DreamWeaver]

Okay, let me explain it to you:

POD technology is used to keep books in print all the time. This means when a book is ordered from Amazon for print publication, the single copy is printed and mailed to the customer. This is not unusual with many traditional publishers.

A print run is where the publishing house forks over money and space to print a ton of books based on their projected sales for the author and the title.

If an author is great and the publisher believes they have a quality book, they may not do a print run for quite a while, if at all, until the author and/or the title proves one is merited.

If an author stomps their feet and demands to get a print run, regardless of their sales or experience in the industry, it is not up to the publisher to give in to those demands. They can, however, continue to make the book available according to the contract the author signed.

If the author wants their rights back, then there are channels that author can go through to get them back.

Is that more clear?When I jumped in, this was a question about an author having a book signing. Since a booksigning generally requires 30 books or less, I fail to see why the publisher would refuse to print those via POD.

A non-vanity contract will have conditions for the book going out of print. If a bookstore cannot order copies for an event because the publisher won't print them (whether via POD or any other technology), the book should be declared out of print and the author released. A reputable publisher doesn't hold an author hostage in case one day their sales pick up. The publisher either works to sell the book, or cuts it loose. Or, perhaps, the author signed a really bad contract with no reversion clause.

We are never going to agree on this, so I'll let someone else bang their head against the wall for a while.

ETA: Oh, right. They already have been.

[JRTurner]

When I jumped in, this was a question about an author having a book signing. Since a booksigning generally requires 30 books or less, I fail to see why the publisher would refuse to print those via POD.


The publisher never did refuse to print those books. Weird you would think so.


A non-vanity contract will have conditions for the book going out of print. If a bookstore cannot order copies for an event because the publisher won't print them (whether via POD or any other technology), the book should be declared out of print and the author released. A reputable publisher doesn't hold an author hostage in case one day their sales pick up. The publisher either works to sell the book, or cuts it loose. Or, perhaps, the author signed a really bad contract with no reversion clause.


That isn't how Echelon Press operates. There is no one holding bad books hostage out of spite(?) Echelon keeps all titles under contract for print--in print--and makes them available to bookstores who order them.


We are never going to agree on this, so I'll let someone else bang their head against the wall for a while.

ETA: Oh, right. They already have been.

Seriously? *Snort*

Obviously you weren't sincere and totally a waste of time.

[JRTurner]

People--pay attention.

Having 30 books available for a bookstore signing does NOT mean an author gets a print run in the thousands.

Capisce?

[DreamWeaver]

Capisce?Capiche?Fixed that for you. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about your willful misunderstanding.

ETA: As I said in the other thread, I'm putting you on ignore.

[JRTurner]

Fixed that for you. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about your willful misunderstanding.

I'm sorry you were expecting total agreement.

I prefer reality to your willful ignorance.

And you didn't fix anything. I was using slang for "Understand?" Look it up.

[Jamiekswriter]

Actually capiche is Italian not slang . . . but anyway.

Why didn't Echelon print the 30 books for the book signing?

According to Priceless' authors the pub said she couldn't afford it.

I'm assuming that meant that the bookstore wouldn't buy the book and the author didn't want to buy the books. So the pub said, I'm not giving these books away for free. That I can understand.

What is Echelon's return policy to bookstores? Is that what hindered the book store from buying the book? If they bought 30 and only sold five, could they have returned the remainder back to Echelon?

If the author didn't have a print run in their contract, I can't imagine why they would be trying to sell at a bookstore instead of online. That being said, I also can't imagine that Echelon would turn down the opportunitiy to sell a book.

[Unimportant]

JRTurner, are you the owner of Echelon?

[the bunny hugger]

The owner of Echelon is Karen L. Syed, who is not JRTurner.

[Unimportant]

Thanks, bunnyhugger. I was wondering how Turner could state categorically that no Echelon author had ever bought books for a signing, or whatever; that kind of information that covers all of a press's authors could only be know, absolutely, by whoever owns/runs the press.

Given Turner's fierce defence of Echelon (without being in a position to have the information she/he claims to have) and concurrent attacks on Double Dragon (for no discernable reason) I have to wonder what Turner's agenda is.

[priceless1]

And I'm sorry--but it simply IS true that no author has to buy their own books.
Sorry, but I'm here to tell you that your statement is false. I have talked with authors who have had to exactly this. Shouting that I'm wrong doesn't make it so. Sorry.

If an author wants a print run the publisher is NOT offering them--mostly because the author hasn't proved they could even earn back their advance--then I'd say it's up to the author to pay for their own print run. The only red flag that raises is how ignorant the author is about how this industry works.
Let's talk about how publishing works. An author signs an contract. The publisher does all the publishy things that publishers do, which includes a print run. It has nothing to do with earning back their advance because the print run is done in order to get it out to market. Any author who has to pay for their own print run is with a vanity press.

I have to say that the only ignorant one in this scenario is you because you lack the basic fundamentals on how the industry works. And if you're getting your education from Echelon Press, then I submit that you're getting all the wrong information.

[priceless1]

Any author who sets up a book signing with a book store needs to make sure that the bookstore has ordered the books
Yes, yes, I'm vaguely aware of how it works.

As far as print runs go--I know of no one who is guaranteed a print run when they choose to query a publishing house that uses POD technology. Thank you. You make my case for me. Karen wasn't doing print runs, so when authors wanted to do an author event, they wouldn't have books because she didn't have the money to print them.

In fact, at the moment, Echelon doesn't even offer print publication. All queries are for ebook only. Was there some inability for these unknown, unnamed, disgruntled authors to read the submission guidelines that they expected print runs when they submitted?
Echelon turned into an e-press due to lack of financial stability. I'm talking about authors who were signed while Echelon was printing physical books.

While you may find these supposed successful authors to be "quite compelling" I find your reiteration of their problems to be rather simplistic, inflammatory, and baseless.May I submit that you have a rather huge bias and wouldn't believe anything I had to say. So what's the point. Say, are you Karen? If so, I can understand your strong reaction to hearing that your authors are becoming more vocal about their experiences with Echelon.

[priceless1]

People--pay attention.

Having 30 books available for a bookstore signing does NOT mean an author gets a print run in the thousands.


Le sigh. No one is disputing the number of books printed. It's the problem of getting them printed at all.

[Unimportant]

A quick check shows that JRTurner is Jennifer Turner, who has multiple books published with Echelon (http://www.jennifer-turner.com/books/index.html) and its YA imprint Quake, is a Nano writing-buddy (http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/user/431765) with Echelon owner Karen, and appears to be part of Echelon staff with posting privileges (http://quakeme.wordpress.com/author/jrturner/) on their blog/website (a la "We are pleased to announce the release of a new book by Author X....").

Editing to add: Ah. Ms Turner is the acquiring editor (http://quakeme.wordpress.com/submissions/) for Quake, Echelon's YA imprint. I'm slow, but I get there eventually.

[EchelonPress]

Stores want discounts, yes, but more important is returanability terms and there are plenty of niche independent publishers out there that can negotiate terms sufficient to get some books into stores (and incidentally, it incentivises the publishers themselves to only publish books that they believe they can sell).

If Echelon cannot/is not willing to do that, then why is it in the business of print books? Why not focus on ebooks (where a number of smaller publishers manage to do pretty well for their authors in terms of sales figures).

Okay, let's be very clear about all this. The above comments are very true and if you had inside insight as to our company you would know that from DAY ONE we have offered standard discounts to distributors, we have offered a little better than average discounts to retialers, we have offered very good discounts to authors who want to purchase their own books to resell.

Echelon Press print books have ALWAYS ben returnable, never a questions. Problem is that working with relatively unknown authors who many of refuse to actually do any kind of marketig and promoting, no matter how many shelves we get those books onto, and there have been many, the books will not sell, they WILL get returned and the author WILL blame the publisher. It is the nature of the business.

Is Echelon Press perfect. Heck no. But no matter what anyone wants from any publisher, no author in today's economy wil ever get a second chance if they spend their first chance sitting back on their laurels and waiting for the checks to roll in for book not sold because they never told anyone they were there to be bought.

Just sayin'.

Karen

[EchelonPress]

Yes, yes, I'm vaguely aware of how it works.

Thank you. You make my case for me. Karen wasn't doing print runs, so when authors wanted to do an author event, they wouldn't have books because she didn't have the money to print them.

This simply isn't true. There have been issues, but on a very small scale. There have been authors who did no follow up, did not allow proper amount of time for delivery, and othe things. There have also been a couple of incidents where Echelon did not come through, but those can be counted on ONE hand and that is not bad for ten years in business.


Echelon turned into an e-press due to lack of financial stability. I'm talking about authors who were signed while Echelon was printing physical books.

Echelon still does print books, but we are much more selective about who we do them for. Authors who refuse to market or use the tools offered to them will not get print.

And any publisher who has authors who continually drain the coffers by allowing their publisher to sit on thousands of printed copies of their books rather than actually schedule a booksigning or post a press release will complain about said publishers.

May I submit that you have a rather huge bias and wouldn't believe anything I had to say. So what's the point. Say, are you Karen? If so, I can understand your strong reaction to hearing that your authors are becoming more vocal about their experiences with Echelon.

Jenny may be biased, but she has also had 6 books with us and continues to do everything in her power to sell those books, both in print and eBook.

[EchelonPress]

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. I have spoken with three authors who ran into problems because they had events planned but no books. The publisher didn't have the funds to do the print runs (her words to them), and the only way she would/could do those print runs is if the authors bought the books.

I consider that to be a pretty red flag because it goes to their budget.

This is simply a blatant lie. Funds have NEVER been an issue for lack of books. Timing? Yes. Follow Up? Yes. Never money.

There are always two sides to every story and to only use one side to base gospel, is irresponsible at the least.

[priceless1]

This is simply a blatant lie. Funds have NEVER been an issue for lack of books. Timing? Yes. Follow Up? Yes. Never money.

There are always two sides to every story and to only use one side to base gospel, is irresponsible at the least.
All I can say is there is solid back up that verifies print runs weren't done because you didn't have the funding.

Is Echelon Press perfect. Heck no. But no matter what anyone wants from any publisher, no author in today's economy wil ever get a second chance if they spend their first chance sitting back on their laurels and waiting for the checks to roll in for book not sold because they never told anyone they were there to be bought.
I think it's outrageous to suggest authors are "sitting on their laurels and waiting for the checks to roll in." It is a publisher's responsibility to have product for them to do events and promotion.

[thothguard51]

Priceless,

Not to defend EP, but I do agree with Karen, that there are always two sides to every story.

Perhaps the funds were not available because the authors in question did not give sufficient notice. Could that be a possibility?

[priceless1]

Priceless,

Not to defend EP, but I do agree with Karen, that there are always two sides to every story.

Perhaps the funds were not available because the authors in question did not give sufficient notice. Could that be a possibility?
These are things that were told to me in confidence, so I can't get into specifics or name names. I wish those authors would come here and speak for themselves, but they have moved on to greener pastures and aren't interested in re-hashing their experiences. I can tell you that the authors' books were "published," yet no print runs were done and there was zero stock in anyone's warehouse. So, in reality, they were published in name only. When the authors planned events, Karen told them she didn't have the money for print runs.

This isn't a matter of not enough advance time being given. Books were never printed at the outset. If Karen isn't going to do print runs even though she's pubbed a book, she should tell them that until there is an order, no books will be printed. That way, there is no room for confusion.

Karen's assertions that she only buys manuscripts that she knows will sell. Well then why are there cases where no books are printed at all? What's the point?

[thothguard51]

Priceless,

I would never ask someone to divulge anything told in confidence, so I understand your position...

[EchelonPress]

These are things that were told to me in confidence, so I can't get into specifics or name names. I wish those authors would come here and speak for themselves, but they have moved on to greener pastures and aren't interested in re-hashing their experiences. I can tell you that the authors' books were "published," yet no print runs were done and there was zero stock in anyone's warehouse. So, in reality, they were published in name only. When the authors planned events, Karen told them she didn't have the money for print runs.

Karen stopped doing print runs when she was being left with thousands of unsold books by authors who 1. only wanted to signings in specific chain sotres. 2. Refused to take any advice or accept any guidance from us with regard to marketing or promotig. 3. Fell into the myth that an author does not have to do any marketing and promoting, that it is all up to the publisher. This has not been true for MANY years. 4. Stopped putting her faith into authors who were happy selling 200 copies from a 2500 print run.

As for not being in print, so not really being published. This is just a sad reflection on how misunderstood the publishing industry really is by so many. We have always utilized POD (Print on Demand) this meant we did not get stuck with thousands of books when authors decided after we had published their book that they wanted to self publish. We have done about 50 titles in offset runs and despite distribution, retail opportunities, and me carrying them across the country in my car to meet readers at festivals and conferences, the majority of those books are still in my warehouse because the authors couldn't afford to go to the festivals themselves, they couldn't afford to pay for any adveritising, they could'nt afford to buy any promotional materials. These things are not standard with ANY publisher unless you have hit the NYT list or one of the others.

This industry is a LOT of hard work and I have gone out of my way to work with every author who has been contracted with us. Some have been wonderful and we've done well. Others have ignored me, ignored their fellow authors who triued to work with them, and ignored the changes in the industry.

This isn't a matter of not enough advance time being given. Books were never printed at the outset. If Karen isn't going to do print runs even though she's pubbed a book, she should tell them that until there is an order, no books will be printed. That way, there is no room for confusion.

That is EXACTLY what it is. How does POD work? Books are printed and shipped when ordered. When a bookstore only give 10 days to process an order, that is not enough and every author at Echelon is given the very specific guidelines as to how much time is required. As I said somewhere else, there were a couple of incidents where it was my fault, but again, only a couple.

That's the rub with some authors. They are told how things are and what to expect, but once they get that contract, they figure they can badger or manipulate more and it doesn't always work that way. I am very honest with authors about what they can expect and if they CHOOSE to ignore that in hopes of something more. I will not take responsibility for that.

Karen's assertions that she only buys manuscripts that she knows will sell. Well then why are there cases where no books are printed at all? What's the point?

If you want a larger print run from a large house, I suggest you find a way to write a book that stands high above all others, then have a marketing strategy that guarantees that publisher that YOU will be able to sell more books than their A-List authors, and then actually DO IT! Noting is free in this industry and nothing is easy. If you think that this thread of insulting and bashing my publishing house is winning you any favors with other pubs and editors who are reading these, and they DO read these. I am very sad for you.

I am proud of my company and I am VERY proud of my authors who have taken responsibility for their own success instead of blaming someone else for their lack of it.

[thothguard51]

I am a bit confused...

If you have always used POD, then how is it you have a warehouse full of unsold books? This does not make sense...

[priceless1]

If you want a larger print run from a large house, I suggest you find a way to write a book that stands high above all others, then have a marketing strategy that guarantees that publisher that YOU will be able to sell more books than their A-List authors, and then actually DO IT! Um, well, actually I do. Our last title sold 13,000 units in two months, and another 5k units in the ensuing months and became a Denver Post bestseller. We just went back to print run for another 7k units.

Noting is free in this industry and nothing is easy. If you think that this thread of insulting and bashing my publishing house is winning you any favors with other pubs and editors who are reading these, and they DO read these. I am very sad for you.Boy howdy, don't I know it. Publishing is far from free or easy. I'm not particularly concerned what other editors are saying because your company has been, ah, scrutinized already when we visit each other at writer's conferences. Don't be sad for me, be worried about doing the very best for your authors.

Furthermore, I'm not bashing and insulting your company. I'm discussing some very real concerns that a number of your current and ex-authors have to report.

Karen, I'm the last person to misunderstand how the publishing industry really works. POD is simply a printing process. You make it sound as though you're a hapless victim to print run size, yet you, the publisher, are the one who decides what that print run number will be. If you're consistently caught with a warehouse full of unsold books, then it's time to review your decision-making process instead of blaming the authors.

If you're referring to those who have complaints, then you do them a grave disservice, since they've moved on and have done quite well for themselves. A failing business isn't the authors' fault. Sometimes it's important to look in the mirror.

[Giant Baby]

After her time out, Ms. Turner took it to her blog (http://jr-turner.blogspot.com/2011/02/aw-bans-intelligence.html) (thanks to Unimportant's website link). This link is for anyone interested, but it's pretty much the greatest hits: AW's riddled with mod monkey meanies; the lone, brave voice of reason got banned; people who took her bait and followed her thread hopping = stalkers. Also, we's teh eveeeeel to intelligent seekers of info (the blog title is "AW Bans Intelligence").


So be warned, folks. AW is not the most reliable place to get your information anymore, and in fact, should you ask or answer questions with a fair amount of insight, they might just start spitting pea soup at you!


Plus, more of the same about print runs.

I clicked, I read, I yawned, I posted (here), I left.

GB.

[Unimportant]

Ms Turner's blog post is also full of blatant lies. Her claim that all the reports for a particularly well-known massive epublishing house were all glowing and wonderful...with reference to DDP hardly matches my own comment on the DDP thread:
They're quite slow in several respects -- responding to submissions, getting a contract signed, and getting a book edited.

She is not doing her publisher any favours.

[priceless1]

I clicked, I read, I yawned, I posted (here), I left.

GB.
Since there are no comments posted, she either screens comments first, or edited you right out the door. So much for truth and education because, you're right, her post is riddled with misinformation that could confuse a lot of good people. Ah well, we tried.

[amergina]

I *thought* I caught a whiff of ground ax over in the DDP thread...

Unimportant is right. I've thought about submitting to epublishers, but if this is the way one of their staff acts, I'll back away slowly from this particular one.

And that's the whole point of the BB&C forum, so I, an author, can make an informed decision about whether I want to submit my work to one publisher or another.

[JulieB]

These things are not standard with ANY publisher unless you have hit the NYT list or one of the others.


There are a number of small publishers in the part of the country where I live. They don't have bookstore distribution, but they show up at genre conventions and sell books. If they can't make it to the convention, they make sure they have books with another bookseller. When their authors sit on a panel and promote, there are books to back them up. And they generally take ads out in the program books, too, plus have fliers and possibly other items (printed sample chapters, for example) on the freebie table.

Yep, the publishers buy the ads and supply some promotional materials. The authors usually come in with even more promotional materials. (The publisher's materials are generally geared to support multiple authors.) And I'm talking about small publishers that mostly print via POD. The authors do pay their own way to conventions, but it's worth it because their publishers are backing them up.

Their authors do work their tails off on promotion, but that's generally understood up-front before the work is published.

[priceless1]

Ahhh... the clouds part, the angels sing. I thought JRTurner was more possessive than the average author. It appears that she's Quake's new acquiring editor (http://jr-turner.blogspot.com/2011/02/so-wonderful.html).

[Giant Baby]

Since there are no comments posted, she either screens comments first, or edited you right out the door. So much for truth and education because, you're right, her post is riddled with misinformation that could confuse a lot of good people. Ah well, we tried.

Ah, hell, Priceless, I didn't post on her blog. That'd be way too validating for what I read. I just meant I posted here.

:)

[EchelonPress]

I am a bit confused...

If you have always used POD, then how is it you have a warehouse full of unsold books? This does not make sense...

Because at one point I had gone out on a limb when several authors begged me, and swore they would do whatever necessary to sell the books if I did a print run. We never stopped using POD, but for numerous authors we made the committment to do a print run. To date, only 5 of those authors have sold those print runs, with four demanding their rights back so they could self-publish.

It wasn't one or the other.

[michael_b]

If you think that this thread of insulting and bashing my publishing house is winning you any favors with other pubs and editors who are reading these, and they DO read these.

Yes, other publishers do read posts here. I can attest to that. But turning it into a thinly veiled threat isn't doing you any favors and further besmirches your own reputation.

Something I've learned in my years in this business is that you can't please every author all of the time. All you can do is your best.

[Medievalist]

We have done about 50 titles in offset runs and despite distribution, retail opportunities, and me carrying them across the country in my car to meet readers at festivals and conferences, the majority of those books are still in my warehouse because the authors couldn't afford to go to the festivals themselves, they couldn't afford to pay for any adveritising, they could'nt afford to buy any promotional materials. These things are not standard with ANY publisher unless you have hit the NYT list or one of the others.

That's not, strictly speaking, an accurate statement. I know it's very hard for a small press, but I note that Subterranean, for instance, routinely goes to SF cons; you will not only see them with a table or booth, you'll see their books on other dealer's tables. You'll also see them handing out promo swag, and advertisements to the trade.

Certainly it's not true even for tiny niche academic publishers, or consumer computer publishers, both of whom advertise extensively to the trade and directly to consumers, and appear at academic conferences and conventions.

[EchelonPress]

That's not, strictly speaking, an accurate statement. I know it's very hard for a small press, but I note that Subterranean, for instance, routinely goes to SF cons; you will not only see them with a table or booth, you'll see their books on other dealer's tables. You'll also see them handing out promo swag, and advertisements to the trade.

Certainly it's not true even for tiny niche academic publishers, or consumer computer publishers, both of whom advertise extensively to the trade and directly to consumers, and appear at academic conferences and conventions.

You are very correct. That is why I clearly stated that it was not STANDARD. I know it is done. I do see it, but not on a large scale where fiction is concerned.

[Medievalist]

You are very correct. That is why I clearly stated that it was not STANDARD. I know it is done. I do see it, but not on a large scale where fiction is concerned.

Actually, what you said is:

These things are not standard with ANY publisher unless you have hit the NYT list or one of the others.

And I'm disagreeing with you; I'm disagreeing with you based on better than twenty years in publishing--much of it for niche publishing.

These things are in fact standard.

I note that Small Beer Press (http://smallbeerpress.com/) and Subterranean (http://www.subterraneanpress.com/) are both small niche fiction publishers; they heavily promote their books via advertising to the trade and via conventions and conferences. If you go to a con with a dealer's room, you'll see their books. They also have their books in SF bookstores and libraries.

Finally, based on the review requests Greenman Review receives from small and large publishers, and the promotional materials they send, it's still standard for publishers to market and promote their books, even when they're POD or ebooks.

[Terie]

Echelon Press, yesterday, your Quake acquisitions editor revived the thread of one of your successful competitors, a thread to which no one had posted for almost five months, and made the following posts:

Does DDP promote their authors? Or are they more like an author mill--once they get you to sign the contract, you're on your own?


Well, not book signings or radio interviews--but do they advertise on the internet? Do they buy spots for Kindle or Nook advertising at Amazon or Barnes&Noble? Do they support blog tours or other online events to get the word out about the books they're publishing? Do they give their authors anymore time of day than simply listing the book in their huge database?

If they don't, then doesn't that make them an author mill?

(There are many more, but these were the first two.)

These posts suggest that buying 'spots for Kindle or Nook advertising at Amazon or Barnes&Noble' would be considered a savvy strategy for an e-publisher to pursue.

Does Echelon Press 'buy spots for Kindle or Nook advertising at Amazon or Barnes&Noble'?

You might also want to consider that having an employee who aggressively and publically attempts to trash your competitors doesn't do your business any good, and when she does it in a place like this, where many industry professionals and prospective authors hang out, even more so. Perhaps a quiet word with her about how to present herself professionally would be in order.

[Momento Mori]

To be honest, if I was Echelon Press I'd be taking a long hard look at the train wreck that one of its own editors has created and deciding how that reflects on the company as a whole.

It simply isn't true to say that any publicity is good publicity. The hissy fit that Ms Turner seems to be having at being contradicted by people who frankly do have more experience in this area than her is worrying. The blatantly false information that she seems keen to disseminate (in some cases blatantly misrepresenting comments from this thread) suggests to me a person who simply can't bear the fact that she's wrong.

Her personal attack on priceless1 and Behler Publications is laughable given Behler's track record of selling books in the thousands (something that Echelon seems to have not achieved given the number of remaindered books that are apparently in its warehouse). I can only chalk up Ms Turner's personal attacks to the fact that she apparently has no prior experience of working for a commercial publisher before her engagement with Echelon (and to my mind, a company that uses editors with no previous work history in the area is another sign that it lacks professionalism).

I wasn't particularly impressed with the company in the first place. The fact that they seem to condone what Ms Turner is doing reinforces my belief that this is not a company that is run on a professional basis and I would caution any author against becoming involved with them.

May I suggest to all that we leave the children to their tantrum? Their own behaviour speaks more loudly than any point we could make here.

MM

[priceless1]

It's very sad that Jenny has chosen to make libelous personal attacks because it reflects poorly on her employer. Why is it that when someone can't argue the facts, they resort to making personal attacks? A rich husband? We live on a yacht? Wow, I WISH. Where does she get this stuff?

Any editor of mine who behaved in this fashion would have been fired immediately. Passion is one thing, but she's making her employer look unprofessional.

[JulieB]

I wish she'd substantiate her allegations. But to suggest that would be bashing, I suppose.

Update: The blog has been removed (http://jr-turner.blogspot.com/).

[Jamiekswriter]

So can JRTurner (when/if she comes back) or another Echelon author give us some hard numbers on their sales and what they had to do for marketing to get those sales? I'm not looking for exact numbers, if that makes you uncomfortable. Simply saying, I sold over 50/100/200/1,000 copies each of my books and I had to do X,Y.Z and Echelon did X,Y,Z would convince me that Echelon is a good place to go. (Sniping at other pubs isn't.)

That would go a long way, IMHO, to seeing what Echelon offers a writer rather than rattling the "Publishing is Hard and Mysterious" gong.

How many copies has the author sold? Were they POD or a print run? Did her ebooks sell more than her print books? Were her print books in brick and mortar stores? How many books did she have at events/bookstores? Did the bookstores buy them? Were they able to return the unsold copies? What marketing -- if any did Echelon provide? What are the resources Echelon keeps referring to in this thread that they provide authors? What marketing did the author do? Why do you feel a new author should go with Echelon -- what sets them apart from all the other POD/e-book pubs out there?

Just saying "I'm satisfied/I'm happy" is great. It's not very informative or helpful for me deciding whether I should trust Echelon with my novel.

In fact now that I know JRTurner is actively involved with Echelon makes me question the ethics of the publisher, if they allow someone who trolls threads like JRTurner did yesterday as an editor. Based on the tone of her posts I wouldn't want JRTurner editing my YA novel . . .

[priceless1]

There is one last sad addendum to this affair. When JRTurner was banned from AW, she took to her blog, where she made many libelous remarks about several of us. This morning, I let Karen Syed, owner of Echelon Books, know that if JR's lies weren't removed from her blog by the end of today, then she would be hearing from my attorney. I would also include Karen, since JR is Karen's employee.

In addition to JR's blog, I noticed that she also tweeted:

"Absolute Write just kicked me out. Lol. Seriously ignorant retards over there. Please don't visit that site for your info. They're inbred."

Karen retweeted this in an obvious show of support for her employer.

I don't believe JR will provide an apology for the outrageous things she said, but I did expect to at least get one from Karen, as a way of accepting responsibility for her employee's behavior.


Ben LeRoy - Tyrus Books - had tried to educate JR on how the publishing industry works, as well as give her some insight as to our own company's successes. For his trouble, she tweeted: "Poor Benjamin LeRoy, who nominated him to come post on my blog because they were too scared to do it themselves? He needs better friends..."

The blog was removed. Karen swears she had nothing to do with the removal since she couldn't get hold of JR. Whoever is responsible, it's refreshing that cooler heads prevailed.

So why am I airing all of this here? Because it goes to character. In all the posts we've made in this thread, we never lobbed personal attacks or spread vicious lies. We stuck to the facts and issues at hand. We did this in order to let new authors know how the publishing industry really works. And for our trouble, we were libeled.

While JR's inflammatory blog is gone, none of us who were lied about have received an apology from JR or Karen Syed.

If I had known the kind of hassles that would culminate from listening to Echelon authors - current and ex - I would have slapped my hands over my ears so they couldn't tell me their complaints of missing books for events, lack of print runs, financial woes, inferior editing, and ardent refusals to be released from their contracts.

I could have easily kept my mouth shut about what goes on over there, but this is a Bewares Board, so how would I feel, knowing what I know, letting another author walk into this particular quicksand.

What you've seen on this thread is the quintessential philosophy of this publisher and its employees. When they can't argue the facts, they make personal attacks. Again, this goes to character. I, for one, had hoped for better.

[CheekyWench]

I wish she'd substantiate her allegations. But to suggest that would be bashing, I suppose.

Update: The blog has been removed (http://jr-turner.blogspot.com/).

Cached (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kP7tqF6Hxr0J:jr-turner.blogspot.com/+http://jr-turner.blogspot.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com) :)

[thothguard51]

I know an editor has to start somewhere, but is this typical of small publishers hiring their own writers to be acquiring editors if they have no previous professional editing experience with a well established publication?

Maybe I should put a editing shingle out. Maybe Tor will hire me...

[priceless1]

is this typical of small publishers hiring their own writers to be acquiring editors if they have no previous professional editing experience with a well established publication?


Only if the publisher is allergic to success.

[thothguard51]

Because at one point I had gone out on a limb when several authors begged me, and swore they would do whatever necessary to sell the books if I did a print run. We never stopped using POD, but for numerous authors we made the committment to do a print run. To date, only 5 of those authors have sold those print runs, with four demanding their rights back so they could self-publish.

It wasn't one or the other.

Why are you still holding onto them?

[Medievalist]

JR Turner is demanding that her AW account be deleted.

We do not do this for several reasons:

First, there are legal implications.

Second, the account is an old one with a posting history. It is not a wise thing to change the database for a frivolous reason--that the member said stupid and malicious things that she now regrets. Each thread she posted, any Rep comments she left or received--these result in hundreds of alterations.

We have a policy of not deleting accounts and posts for a reason.

JR Turner has taken her malice to Twitter (http://twitter.com/JRTurner). She keeps demanding that her account be deleted. And now, she's protected her account—but not before I got a screenshot:

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z291/digital_medievalist/Linked%20iamges/Screenshot2011-02-16at94302AM.png

Mac and I have both explained repeatedly that if JR Turner stops logging in, and stops posting, her AW account will be purged in a regular process.

I am astonished that someone who is ostensibly a writer would respond to her peers that way. And, speaking as someone who has been dismissed as a "retard" it really does not reflect well on Ms. Turner's compassion and command of English.

[Nadia]

Any publicity is good publicity, right?

[Giant Baby]

Before the blog was removed, four "updates" were added to it. Two were about AW, one was about Priceless, and one was about me. All were characteristically derogatory, and they are forever captured in the screen caps I took of the cache. As are the comments, which got really interesting. They're preserved in my RSS feeds, thanks to the heads up I recieved this morning before I knew the blog would be removed.

As Priceless mentioned, Ben LeRoy came across it and made a comment. He was respectful and articulate. He corrected Ms. Turner with facts about Priceless's reputation and abilities as a publisher and was even so brave as to come out publicly as a friend of mine and challenged the clarity or validity of the vitriol in her on her "update" about me.

At which point she called Ben's point "retarded." It seems to be a word she's fond of.

To quote:


“I don’t see how Giant Baby can be faulted for continuing the discussion where it started.”

Read back through the AW thread at Echelon Press and explain to me where the discussion became about ME and how everyone felt so brave to make untrue, insulting statements about me as a person. Right about the time “Giant Baby” started posting, wasn’t it? So yeah, your claim that little miss innocent was just posting about Echelon Press on the forum is a bit…retarded. Sorry. I’m not as “stoopid” as those you seem used to dealing with.


I'm thinking she needs to dial back her use of the word "retarded" in all its forms. And while my decade+ work with people with developmental disabilities* has forever cured me personally of considering "retarded" to be an effective insult (as some of the most brilliant and most devious minds I've ever known have had IQs under about 50), that's just me, and my experience is my own. I'm still throwing a really big "bite me" back her way.

Don't toss that word around, and definitely don't if you can't be bothered to google who you're responding to. Because the only thing worse than that she didn't google him, is if she did. Ben's not the head of RH, but he's started up and has run/is running two well-respected, independent houses from nothing and has made successes of them both in hard times. That's really fu*king hard to do, as we all know here in the BR&BC. He knows very well what he's talking about.

His support of me, notwithstanding.

*God knows, the terms have probably changed several times by now.

[MacAllister]

Meh. It was a three-day time-out for rudeness. As far as I'm concerned, if she wants to calm down and walk it back a ways after her temp-ban is over, that's fine. People get pissed and say hasty things they regret later -- lord knows *I* have.

In the meantime, this is a thread about Echelon, not just one regrettable acquiring editor.

[victoriastrauss]

Wow. Just...wow.

- Victoria

[Unimportant]

I know an editor has to start somewhere, but is this typical of small publishers hiring their own writers to be acquiring editors if they have no previous professional editing experience with a well established publication?
I don't know how long J Turner has been acquiring editor (as opposed to author) with Echelon, but she also owns the Roto Writer Editing Service (http://www.jennifer-turner.com/rotowriter.html) . She'll critique your ms for what she describes as a nominal fee (http://silverton.livejournal.com/148052.html) ($750) or will rewrite your ms for $1500. Whether this represents valid editing/industry experience, or yet another conflict of interest, is up for debate.

[Medievalist]

I don't know how long J Turner has been acquiring editor (as opposed to author) with Echelon, but she also owns the Roto Writer Editing Service (http://www.jennifer-turner.com/rotowriter.html) . She'll critique your ms for what she describes as a nominal fee (http://silverton.livejournal.com/148052.html) ($750) or will rewrite your ms for $1500.

OK. That's obscene. Really. The person who created this post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5424403&postcount=1) has no business editing anything.

The sentence she edited as an improvement:



Unlike the well-plotted veggie patch, no real pathways led through the flower garden and she stepped on many new blooms.

She's introduced a vague pronoun reference; "she stepped" has as its antecedent "the flower garden."

She's created a free-ranging mobile flower patch.

Here's a bit from her bio (http://www.jennifer-turner.com/about.html):

Born blonde and Polish, Jennifer Turner writes action adventure thrillers and romances. She resides in Wisconsin with her husband Eddie, a red-headed Texan, and her three children, Dustin, Molly and Matthew.

These two sentences are both so badly damaged that one's eye doesn't know where to look. I am curious regarding Eddie's feelings about the red-headed Texan.

This woman has no business touching anyone's writing.

[Stacia Kane]

I don't know how long J Turner has been acquiring editor (as opposed to author) with Echelon, but she also owns the Roto Writer Editing Service (http://www.jennifer-turner.com/rotowriter.html) . She'll critique your ms for what she describes as a nominal fee (http://silverton.livejournal.com/148052.html) ($750) or will rewrite your ms for $1500. Whether this represents valid editing/industry experience, or yet another conflict of interest, is up for debate.


:Jaw:



Um...I wouldn't dare charge $750 for a critique, and I have, y'know, actual professional publishing credits.

Wow.

[James D. Macdonald]

And that's quite enough of this train wreck.


CAO ETA: Reopening thread.