What is your opinion about Hugo Chávez?

[maxmordon]

Just wondering what the good people of this forum think about the president of my fatherland, Venezuela

Please be as honest as you can under the limits of respect to everyone's opinion

[TheGaffer]

I'm sure he plays a hell of a game of golf.

[Bad Penny]

Loves soccer

[SC Harrison]

What's more important than my opinion of Chavez is his own opinion of himself.

It is plain to me that he has succumbed to the "cult of personality" effect, which carries with it an intense form of paranoia that has and will cause him to take steps to protect his "vision" of Venezuela's future. He sees a television network as a threat to his power, so he closes it down. He worries about eventually losing support from the Parliament, so he "allows them" to grant him Rule By Edict status. Although he has huge economic clout thanks to oil revenues, he still has way too many unemployed and is not nearly as powerful militarily as he should be. That's easy to fix. In addition to buying over 100,000 AK-47s, he has now been given a license by Russia to manufacture his own AK-47s.

And he likes ping-pong.

[skelly]

He gives sloppy head.

[Bad Penny]

Haskins hates him almost as much as he hates Che

It's a beret thing I figure. The sight of a (foreign) politician in a beret makes Haskins go off like a hand grenade. Kind of like Steve Martin when he hears someone say 'CLEANING WOMAN'

[DamaNegra]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when a person asks a serious question and is met with 'funny' answers? I thought that was what Office Party was about, but that may be just me.

I agree with most of what SC said, he's not unlike Lopez Obrador here in Mexico. The difference is, thankfully, Lopez Obrador doesn't have the power. Now, Chavez has some good ideas, but it's all in the delivery. I believe he genuinely wants to help the people, but like SC said, he's so lost in his own grandeur aspirations. He's the kind of person so wrapped up in his fight that he forgets what he was fighting for in the first place. That, I think, is his biggest issue.

[gerrydodge]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when a person asks a serious question and is met with 'funny' answers? I thought that was what Office Party was about, but that may be just me.

I agree with most of what SC said, he's not unlike Lopez Obrador here in Mexico. The difference is, thankfully, Lopez Obrador doesn't have the power. Now, Chavez has some good ideas, but it's all in the delivery. I believe he genuinely wants to help the people, but like SC said, he's so lost in his own grandeur aspirations. He's the kind of person so wrapped up in his fight that he forgets what he was fighting for in the first place. That, I think, is his biggest issue.

I think he's dangerous to the region, but it's hard to tell because the U.S. has botched almost everything we've done in our own Southern Hemisphere for so long, I just might be wrong. He irritates the hell out of Bush and he taunts him and I respect him for that. There is some ineffable charm in making a standing president mad and knowing there is nothing he can do about it.

[Unique]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when a person asks a serious question and is met with 'funny' answers? I thought that was what Office Party was about, but that may be just me.

I agree with most of what SC said, he's not unlike Lopez Obrador here in Mexico. The difference is, thankfully, Lopez Obrador doesn't have the power. Now, Chavez has some good ideas, but it's all in the delivery. I believe he genuinely wants to help the people, but like SC said, he's so lost in his own grandeur aspirations. He's the kind of person so wrapped up in his fight that he forgets what he was fighting for in the first place. That, I think, is his biggest issue.

No. And well said, Dama.


I believe that Chavez benefits Venezuela by dumping the myth that capitalism works in every circumstance.

Hooray! For intelligence. Where have you been?

[RG570]

I think Chavez is good, and we need more people like him. Hands off Venezuela!

It's a faint, very very faint, glimmer of hope that we can put capitalism behind us some day.

Sadly, I don't think it will last.

[SC Harrison]

One of my biggest concerns about the direction he may take in the future is the fact that he fancies himself a 21st Century Simon Bolivar, and his behavior mirrors that. He views U.S. influence in South America as a foreign invasion of sorts, and he feels it's his destiny to expel the invader and unite all of South America under the banner of a single and powerful organization of states, to protect their interests.

For some here, that may sound like a reasonable and just goal. But if you look at what happened after Bolivar finally gained independence for the region, you'll see the dark side of what Chavez can become. The newly independent countries didn't want to stay under the control of one man, even one with a vision. Dissension grew, voices rose and were stifled, and Bolivar became an evil oppressor in the eyes of many people.

And he had access to only a fraction of the resources that Chavez has.

[William Haskins]

first off, i agree with dama and BoP and unique. this is serious business and should be treated as such. to suggest, for instance, that "he gives sloppy head" is not only coarse and inappropriate, it's also a lie.

the guy could obviously suck-start a harley.

chavez is, in my view, a shrewd populist and i believe him to be (like most populists) an autocrat at heart.

we could debate all day long whether or not this event or that event represents the baby steps of a dictator or a noble action against centuries of entrenched class warfare. time alone will tell the truth about that.

he props up his agenda on the bolivarian model, and this has earned him a great deal of notoriety among the intellectual wing of socialism, but i suspect that this is little more than pandering to the downtrodden at home and the elites abroad, who are immensely forgiving of strong-armers when the expressed goal is socialism.

to me, he's far more stalin than trotsky in temperament and ambition. but there's no doubt he's smart. he's got a lot of goons ready to march for him, and he'll give away enough to the poor to keep them in his pocket for a while.

he'll play his hand explicitly at some point, however, and my guess is he will eventually be looking at the ground upside-down, ala mussolini.

He irritates the hell out of Bush and he taunts him and I respect him for that. There is some ineffable charm in making a standing president mad and knowing there is nothing he can do about it.

this is, by far, the most amusing part of the chavez phenomenon in the u.s. and proof positive that, were the bible true, the antichrist would have no problem assembling his flock.

it's so ridiculously immature and naive to believe the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

[rugcat]

it's so ridiculously immature and naive to believe the enemy of your enemy is your friend.Too horribly true.

My politics are pretty far left, (actually, I live in San Francisco and I'm considered just right of center there) but in this particular case, I find myself in complete agreement with Mr. Haskins. Populiists are not always the good guys.

[William Haskins]

I find myself in complete agreement with Mr. Haskins.

and so it begins...

[Jamesaritchie]

It's hard not to joke about such a man. It's either this or cry. He's pure evil.

[SarahinOhio]

Pat Robertson wants him dead. The guy's gotta be doing something right.

it's so ridiculously immature and naive to believe the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

Damn.

[William Haskins]

indeed.

[Gary]

I don't care about him one way or the other. He belongs to Argentina and they can do as they wish when selecting their leaders...it's none of my business.

[William Haskins]

I don't care about him one way or the other. He belongs to Argentina and they can do as they wish when selecting their leaders...it's none of my business.

he's already invaded argentina?? the bastard!

[robeiae]

I believe that Chavez benefits Venezuela by dumping the myth that capitalism works in every circumstance.
...and confirming the truism that people will pay through the nose for oil?

Capitalism isn't a system of government and it can't work "in every circumstance" because it's not applicable in every circumstance.

Chavez is certainly benefiting from capitalism, however. It's too bad the people of Venezuela aren't really sharing in those benefits.

Chavez is all about Chavez. Nothing more. It's sad to me that Venezuela is controlled by him. Hopefully, it can recover.

[William Haskins]

actually, there is a growing new elite in venezuela, in luxury homes and driving hummers. and then there are the poor. a recipe for disaster, killing the middle class.

[robeiae]

The Economist had a report some time back about the corruption rampant in Venezuela. Lots of officials making millions. They can afford the Hummers.

And don't forget the Indians, who still seem to support Chavez, even as he sells the mineral rights to their lands to the highest bidder behind their backs. That's pure socialism.

[William Haskins]

absolutely. here's a great article on this matter (apologies in advance for posting a link from the arch-conservative BBC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6186990.stm

While the poor and the rich - particularly, a new elite linked to the government - are widely seen to have benefited from the current administration and the oil bonanza, the middle classes have felt excluded and harassed.


As one man in a Caracas suburb put it: "We have been squeezed between the poor and the nouveau riche."


Signs of wealth are easy to find in the capital's more affluent areas, where luxury homes are springing up and the roads are full of Hummers and Audis.
In the San Ignacio shopping centre, for example, smartly-dressed diners make their way through the speedboats and quad bikes on sale there for a few weeks.

<snip>

Those behind the rise in conspicuous consumption are known here as the boli-burguesia, or Bolivarian bourgeoisie, because they are said to have benefited from Mr Chavez's so-called "Bolivarian revolution" (named after the 18th Century independence hero Simon Bolivar).

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42325000/gif/_42325793_venezuela_social2_203.gif

[Bartholomew]

Hugo Chávez is a disaster on two legs.

[William Haskins]

Hugo Chávez is a disaster on two legs.

making fun of a man who lost a leg is fucking pathetic, bart.

[Bartholomew]

making fun of a man who lost a leg is fucking pathetic, bart.

I had no idea he had one leg. o.o

[William Haskins]

why do you think his nickname is "hop-along"?

[Bartholomew]

why do you think his nickname is "hop-along"?

I'd never heard that, either. Now I think you're fucking with me.

[William Haskins]

that doesn't sound like me at all.

[Bartholomew]

...We ARE talking about the Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, right?

And, yes it does.

[William Haskins]

yes. on halloween, he switches out the prosthetic with a peg and goes to parties as a pirate.

[Unique]

and so it begins...


It's a trap!

::::run::::

[TheGaffer]

first off, i agree with dama and BoP and unique. this is serious business and should be treated as such. to suggest, for instance, that "he gives sloppy head" is not only coarse and inappropriate, it's also a lie.

the guy could obviously suck-start a harley.

chavez is, in my view, a shrewd populist and i believe him to be (like most populists) an autocrat at heart.

we could debate all day long whether or not this event or that event represents the baby steps of a dictator or a noble action against centuries of entrenched class warfare. time alone will tell the truth about that.

he props up his agenda on the bolivarian model, and this has earned him a great deal of notoriety among the intellectual wing of socialism, but i suspect that this is little more than pandering to the downtrodden at home and the elites abroad, who are immensely forgiving of strong-armers when the expressed goal is socialism.

to me, he's far more stalin than trotsky in temperament and ambition. but there's no doubt he's smart. he's got a lot of goons ready to march for him, and he'll give away enough to the poor to keep them in his pocket for a while.


it's so ridiculously immature and naive to believe the enemy of your enemy is your friend.


This is all pretty much dead-on, as far as I see it.

I don't see him as the devil that some conservatives believe him to be. (Ok, maybe it's just Pat Robertson, but he commands respect among some deluded Americans.) But I also don't see the point of those cozying up to him either among the left where I tend to run.

But I still think he's dangerous more to himself than anything else (along with his people), though the more we antagonize him, the more popular he grows. And as others have indeed pointed out, our own history on the South American continent has helped fuel the rise of more than one of these types of jerkoffs, so he's just playing a well-played card (one that Bush is helping, of course, seeing as how he can't see more than one move ahead on the board...excuse the mixed metaphor.) Either way, he's another autocrat in populist clothing, methinks, no better than many of those who have littered that continent - including those the US backed.

[Bartholomew]

yes. on halloween, he switches out the prosthetic with a peg and goes to parties as a pirate.

That would be ironically appropriate.

[William Haskins]

aaarghh.

[newmod]

So hang on, Chavez has three legs? Lucky bastard.

[newmod]

Chavez gets on the tits of right-wingers, that's good enough for me.

[SarahinOhio]

So hang on, Chavez has three legs? Lucky bastard.

He leads with the middle one.

[William Haskins]

yes, that's why they also call him huge-oh.

[newmod]

Loves soccer

No, he loves football.

[Magdalen]

Hugo Chávez is a disaster on two legs.
I didn't add my opinion (on Hugo Chavez) earlier because I know I don't know enough about Hugo to have an informed one. But thanks WH for the pie chart. I do, however, know about legs and knees (I know a little bit about all the apendages) and frankly, I'm confused. Bart says Hugo's got two, Haskins says he has one + a fake and now newmod says he has three? Well, are we talking Legs, left knee and right knee or what did I miss? Is leg doublespeak for political affiliations?

[Bad Penny]

Far as I can see Chavez presents certain Americans who rail against him the blinders to comfort themselves that Bush is no dictator and pat themselves on the back that the highlighted stereotypes such as how Chavez presents himself in the media (American media mind you never has and never will show him looking anything other than a militarist and socialist Communist strongman, who spews horrible slanderous rhetoric about the great old virtuous USA, making up whatever exaggeration or lie they see fit to sell the package hook line and sinker. A enemy of the White House is an enemy to freedom lovin' uhmericans because of what the White House tells the media to tell them.

The bottom line is Chavez was elected by his people. Remains popular not only to his own people but to millions throughout South America. Doesn't mean he's a swell guy and loved by all, but really Chavez's only sin is that he doesn't play ball with the White House when it comes to his oil, the only reason the White House gives a shit about Chavez thus deeming him whatever threat to freedom they deem him. Americans have always loved brutal right wing dictators who spill blood in every direction as long as they play ball with the White House.

I doubt some people here had too many sleepless nights worrying about Pinochet and his ilk. And I doubt Venezuela is a country you all give to cents about really.

So this is not a moral argument, only morally pious American patriots shaking their fists at and decrying people that are no threat to them, other than what their own president's sabre rattling causes them, thus ignoring the shitpile in their own living room. And ignore is an understatement.

If Bush, for his very real crimes doesn't end up swinging by his ankles in the town square ala Mussolini long before Chavez for the crimes American hawks keep hoping/theorizing/imagining he's committed or will commit, then this world truly is fugged against a wall.

The bottom line here is, Americans who obsess about Chavez should do something about getting rid of the fascist cabal that has all but reduced their own beloved constitution (seemingly a myth if there ever was one) to a crumpled gum wrapper.

[newmod]

In Spanish (at least here in Spain) a third leg is like a baby's arm. Does that make sense now?

[William Haskins]

pro-chavez:

http://www.womensnewsdaily.com/Go-To-Stories/images/Sheehan-Chavez-anti-US.jpeg

anti-chavez:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/images/0302-02.jpg


lock thread.

[Joe270]

So, everyone agrees, Hugo's a dick.

Plus, he has no . . .

It's true, this man has no . . .

Dang it, Mac, stop cutting me off. I'm feeling really circum . . .

[JPBookman]

So, everyone agrees, Hugo's a dick.

Plus, he has no . . .

It's true, this man has no . . .

Dang it, Mac, stop cutting me off. I'm feeling really circum . . .This fascination with Mac isn't healthy. Mac isn't really a person, but a concept of mind control. Please reconsider your obsession.

[Bird of Prey]

Far as I can see Chavez presents certain Americans who rail against him the blinders to comfort themselves that Bush is no dictator and pat themselves on the back that the highlighted stereotypes such as how Chavez presents himself in the media (American media mind you never has and never will show him looking anything other than a militarist and socialist Communist strongman, who spews horrible slanderous rhetoric about the great old virtuous USA, making up whatever exaggeration or lie they see fit to sell the package hook line and sinker. A enemy of the White House is an enemy to freedom lovin' uhmericans because of what the White House tells the media to tell them.

The bottom line is Chavez was elected by his people. Remains popular not only to his own people but to millions throughout South America. Doesn't mean he's a swell guy and loved by all, but really Chavez's only sin is that he doesn't play ball with the White House when it comes to his oil, the only reason the White House gives a shit about Chavez thus deeming him whatever threat to freedom they deem him. Americans have always loved brutal right wing dictators who spill blood in every direction as long as they play ball with the White House.

I doubt some people here had too many sleepless nights worrying about Pinochet and his ilk. And I doubt Venezuela is a country you all give to cents about really.

So this is not a moral argument, only morally pious American patriots shaking their fists at and decrying people that are no threat to them, other than what their own president's sabre rattling causes them, thus ignoring the shitpile in their own living room. And ignore is an understatement. . . . .

The bottom line here is, Americans who obsess about Chavez should do something about getting rid of the fascist cabal that has all but reduced their own beloved constitution (seemingly a myth if there ever was one) to a crumpled gum wrapper.

Exactly right, BH. Exactly right. Thank you. Great post. . . sans our president being hung by his ankles. Not a big advocate of that.

Chavez is no better or worse than many in power today. Oh, and I should add that we continue to do business as usual with Venezuela. Apparently we don't have any problem with the brutal dictator's oil or money.

[Bartholomew]

I'm allowed to dislike Chavez based on his merits.


The bottom line here is, Americans who obsess about Chavez should do something about getting rid of the fascist cabal that has all but reduced their own beloved constitution (seemingly a myth if there ever was one) to a crumpled gum wrapper.


Brother, ain't that the truth.

[Unique]

That sums it up for me.

The bottom line is Chavez was elected by his people. Remains popular not only to his own people but to millions throughout South America. Doesn't mean he's a swell guy and loved by all, but really Chavez's only sin is that he doesn't play ball with the White House when it comes to his oil, the only reason the White House gives a shit about Chavez thus deeming him whatever threat to freedom they deem him.

so whatta ya want fer nothin' ?

[robeiae]

The bottom line here is, Americans who obsess about Chavez should do something about getting rid of the fascist cabal that has all but reduced their own beloved constitution (seemingly a myth if there ever was one) to a crumpled gum wrapper.Crumpled gum wrapper?

I guess you're right, because if anyone dares to openly criticize or disagree with those in power in the U.S., they soon find their business shut down and themselves in jail.

Further, it's impossible for media outlets to show the extreme disapproval that citizens have for the President and/or Congress without having their licenses revoked.

I'd say the bottom line here is that it's truly scary how people can be so incredibly unaware of reality, or at least are able to set it aside for a bit, when making these kinds of comparisons. Mind boggling.

[Bartholomew]

Crumpled gum wrapper?

I guess you're right, because if anyone dares to openly criticize or disagree with those in power in the U.S., they soon find their business shut down and themselves in jail.

Further, it's impossible for media outlets to show the extreme disapproval that citizens have for the President and/or Congress without having their licenses revoked.

I'd say the bottom line here is that it's truly scary how people can be so incredibly unaware of reality, or at least are able to set it aside for a bit, when making these kinds of comparisons. Mind boggling.

Reread the Patriot Act.

[MattW]

I don't understand how Chavez became the hero for anti-democratic and anti-capitalist folks. Putting aside that the man used and continues to employ those ideologies when it suits him, he is blatantly betraying the core of socialist values by creating a class of citizens who are enriched far beyond their due. No pinkos are offended by that?

I've spoken often of the stories I hear from foreign businessmen (and not just Americans) how their properties and businesses were run out of town so that a minister's cousin could buy it on the cheap. No foreign investment means no other industry besides oil and periphery businesses. Oil, while lucrative beyond all else, that doesn't give people jobs or a sense of pride, or even more desirable, a chance to ever succeed beyond their lot in life. Unless you are "connected."

[Unique]

...and confirming the truism that people will pay through the nose for oil?

Capitalism isn't a system of government and it can't work "in every circumstance" because it's not applicable in every circumstance.

Chavez is certainly benefiting from capitalism, however. It's too bad the people of Venezuela aren't really sharing in those benefits.

Chavez is all about Chavez. Nothing more. It's sad to me that Venezuela is controlled by him. Hopefully, it can recover.

I'm glad you know him personally, rob. That gives me a comforting feeling ...

actually, there is a growing new elite in venezuela, in luxury homes and driving hummers. and then there are the poor. a recipe for disaster, killing the middle class.

The Economist had a report some time back about the corruption rampant in Venezuela. Lots of officials making millions. They can afford the Hummers.

And don't forget the Indians, who still seem to support Chavez, even as he sells the mineral rights to their lands to the highest bidder behind their backs. That's pure socialism.

Haven't we seen this game played once before? Doesn't anyone learn anything - Ever?

[robeiae]

Reread the Patriot Act.There are elements of the PA that go too far, imo. Still, it's a piece of legislation. And I've still yet to have any activity/choice I make limited/impinged by some element of the Patriot Act.

Regardless, the hyperbole evidencing itself here is silly.

[RumpleTumbler]

Chavez....pronounced Cha Vessssss because he thinks it sounds tough is a frightened little boy inside of a mans body. He has aspirations of being the Hitler of a new generation but his obsessive compulsive necrophilia has impeded the progress of his master plan. He marvels at the bravado of William Clinton who had the balls to put a cigar into a big fat live girl. He says "Buenos Dias Beeeeell" when they meet because he thinks it sounds tough. He has a poster of Al Burrito over his bed and dreams of the day they will walk the supermarket isles together, their carts full of snausages, wearing nothing but thongs, their navels one pulsing towards the other in an unspoken frenzy of lust noticed only by the lint that dropped to the floor three feet back.

[Bartholomew]

Regardless, the hyperbole evidencing itself here is silly.

You're in a guild full of writers. You should expect people to be poetic in their opinions.

[robeiae]

Hyperbole in the service of ideology seems like something other than poetry.

[tourdeforce]

Hyperbowl is the name of the new extreme bowling tournament I am trying to launch.

Think bowling meets Rollerball meets dodgeball.

[Bartholomew]

Hyperbole in the service of ideology seems like something other than poetry.

Still, we can't thump our chests to the rest of the world about freedom, and then have a piece of legislation that promises security at the sacrifice of liberty.

[robeiae]

All I can say is that my life is pretty plain
I like watchin' the puddles gather rain
And all I can do is just pour some tea for two
And speak my point of view
But it's not sane
It's not sane...

[SC Harrison]

Frankly, I'm getting tired of being told, "Clean your own house first" whenever I try to discuss issues of concern in other countries. The war in Iraq is a human rights nightmare and we share a big chunk of the blame for that, but that doesn't mean we forget about the rest of the world until we are out of Iraq and/or we have a new President.

In addition to the AK-47s and fighter aircraft Chavez has/is aquiring, he's also purchasing five diesel submarines, ostensibly to protect his oilfield shelf. These could be used to interdict shipping in the hemisphere and possibly threaten the Panama Canal, if he chooses to be more aggressive in pressuring his neighbors to change their business practices.

As others have said, don't allow your contempt for either the Bush administration, American corporate behavior or previous U.S. supported dictators in the region cause you to overlook the dangers of a powerful "revolutionary visionary" laying the groundwork for spreading his influence.

[Bad Penny]

Frankly, I'm getting tired of being told, "Clean your own house first" whenever I try to discuss issues of concern in other countries. The war in Iraq is a human rights nightmare and we share a big chunk of the blame for that, but that doesn't mean we forget about the rest of the world until we are out of Iraq and/or we have a new President.

In addition to the AK-47s and fighter aircraft Chavez has/is aquiring, he's also purchasing five diesel submarines, ostensibly to protect his oilfield shelf. These could be used to interdict shipping in the hemisphere and possibly threaten the Panama Canal, if he chooses to be more aggressive in pressuring his neighbors to change their business practices.

As others have said, don't allow your contempt for either the Bush administration, American corporate behavior or previous U.S. supported dictators in the region cause you to overlook the dangers of a powerful "revolutionary visionary" laying the groundwork for spreading his influence.

Yeah, I've argued with others on various boards who think Chavez is turning Venezuela into the new Soviet Union, and Red Dawn is coming to american shores all the way from Caracas. My only suggestion is...see a psychiatrist who doesn't have a bush bumper sticker on his Hummer

It really does suck when other nations exercise their right to defend themselves against american belligerence doesn't it? Bush has only used the CIA what twice to oust Chavez through skullduggery, at least one influentual US evangelist has openly called for his assasination, Bush refuses to acknowledge him as a legitimate leader.

I maintain my stance. Clean up your own house before you decide what's best for the world (a euphemism for what's best for you)

[Magdalen]

I'm only trying to help. Maybe better minds than mine can put this all together. I googled Chavez, which lead me to Bolivar which lead me to the Basque region and back again to S. America. So what have they(commies in capitalist pima-cotton blends) been doing over there the past 50 years besides providing a safe haven for Nazis and the ETA?

[robeiae]

Yeah, I've argued with others on various boards who think Chavez is turning Venezuela into the new Soviet Union, and Red Dawn is coming to american shores all the way from Caracas. My only suggestion is...see a psychiatrist who doesn't have a bush bumper sticker on his HummerYeah, but that's not what Steve said. Turning any criticism of Chavez into this kind of caricature does your position no good, whatsoever. Chavez is a pimp. He'll will probably never be a military threat to the U.S. But that doesn't mean he should just be ignored, does it?

It really does suck when other nations exercise their right to defend themselves against american belligerence doesn't it? Bush has only used the CIA what twice to oust Chavez through skullduggery, at least one influentual US evangelist has openly called for his assasination, Bush refuses to acknowledge him as a legitimate leader.I think that if, in twenty years or so, you ask the people of Venezuela what "sucks," Hugo's name will likely be on their minds, if not their lips.

[Unique]

It really does suck when other nations exercise their right to defend themselves against american belligerence doesn't it? Bush has only used the CIA what twice to oust Chavez through skullduggery, at least one influentual US evangelist has openly called for his assasination, Bush refuses to acknowledge him as a legitimate leader.



I don't think it sucks. More power to 'em.

Do I think they should attack us?
Fuck no, I don't. Not a wise move by anyone. There are enough Patriots left to get the job done. I am one (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/uniquematerial/StealthPatriotsLogo.jpg).

But neither do I think the US should be starting wars of aggression against sovereign nations for gain.

[robeiae]

You prefer starting them for loss?

[Unique]

You prefer starting them for loss?

No, rob. I don't believe in starting wars of aggression at all.


Strong National Defense. Key word: Defense.

Make better sense?

[Bad Penny]

He'll will probably never be a military threat to the U.S. But that doesn't mean he should just be ignored, does it?


lol he won't be ignored because Bush doesn't want you to ignore him. So CNN, FOX et al constantly flog his gathering 'threat' in your faces. If he didn't have huge oil resources you'd hardly hear about him nor would you care.

99% of the 3rd world's real dictators are ignored unless they're not playing ball with Washington.

http://i18.tinypic.com/5356jax.jpg

[SC Harrison]

Yeah, I've argued with others on various boards who think Chavez is turning Venezuela into the new Soviet Union, and Red Dawn is coming to american shores all the way from Caracas. My only suggestion is...see a psychiatrist who doesn't have a bush bumper sticker on his Hummer

It really does suck when other nations exercise their right to defend themselves against american belligerence doesn't it? Bush has only used the CIA what twice to oust Chavez through skullduggery, at least one influentual US evangelist has openly called for his assasination, Bush refuses to acknowledge him as a legitimate leader.

I maintain my stance. Clean up your own house before you decide what's best for the world (a euphemism for what's best for you)

Thanks for the totally inaccurate and stereotypical character evaluation. It's actually almost refreshing, since I usually get blasted for being overly critical of our corporate-driven foreign policy. But if it makes you feel better saying it, then be my guest.

I'm not worried about a Communist invasion from the Southern Hemisphere, I'm worried about South American countries being subjected to increasing pressures from both sides in this conflict, which may end up derailing some very promising movements towards freedom and self-determination. They should be able to freely choose who they do business with instead of being polarized, which is where I think this will all end up. When that happens, war will come to South America, and every living soul there will be under the gun.

[Bad Penny]

ok well, you won't worry about south america so much if Cheney touches off WW3 in Iran. so there's a bright spot

[robeiae]

lol he won't be ignored because Bush doesn't want you to ignore him. So CNN, FOX et al constantly flog his gathering 'threat' in your faces. If he didn't have huge oil resources you'd hardly hear about him nor would you care.Sadly, you think you're "in the know," or some such nonsense, and it colors your commentary.

1) What Bush wants or doesn't want is inconsequential, with regard to recognizing what Chavez is and what he does.

2) I don't watch Fox or CNN (or et al).

3) The last sentence is ignorant in the extreme. But typical.

[Bad Penny]

Sadly, you think you're "in the know," or some such nonsense, and it colors your commentary.

1) What Bush wants or doesn't want is inconsequential, with regard to recognizing what Chavez is and what he does.


so...you're saying that you're in the know then?

[maxmordon]

Quite interesting the opinion of most people here! Well, for those that actually think Chávez's ideology is based on Bolivar, you should know some of the things Bolivar said:

"Huid de un país donde uno solo ejerza todos los poderes, es un país de esclavos"

"Fleed the land were a man rules all the powers, it's a land of slaves"

Now think that the National Assembly, The Supreme Court, The National Electoral Board and the rest of the goverment is basically in the same political party, Hugo's party

"De lo heroico a lo ridículo no hay más que un paso."

From heroic to ridiculous there is only one step


Another thing, Bolivar was an admirer of United States and the British Empire (there was a whole British unit at Battle of Carabobo) and said that the federalism was just "too perfect for us" while Chávez wants a more centrilized power

"es perjudicial dejar mucho tiempo en el poder a un mismo hombre porque el pueblo se acostumbra a obedecerle y él se acostumbra a mandarle"

Is dangerous let a single man on power too much time, because the people get used to obey him and he to rule them

Think in this phrase that Simón José Antonio De la Santisima Trinidad Bolívar Palacios y Blanco said and compare this with Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías saying that he wants to approve a law with unlimited presidential reelection


And about the elections? they are all rigged. The only legitimate election were the first ones, then how you explain that in the elections were the opposition retired Chavez's party only had 2 million votes out of 14 million people that are registered in the electoral board and more interesting out of 6 million registered in Chavez's parties?

He doesn't have ideology, he just like to have the attention to himself. Something that he said when we had a referendum:

“Los que firmen contra Chávez, en verdad no están firmando contra Chávez (…). Estarán firmando contra la patria, contra el futuro, y quedarán registrados para la historia, porque van a tener que poner su nombre, su apellido, su firma, su número de cédula y su huella digital”.(Hugo Chávez, 16 de octubre de 2003)

Translation:
Those who sign against Chavez, are not signing agianst Chavez but against the nation, against the future, and they will be remembered for all history, because they will have their names, and family names, their signatures, their identification numbers and their fingerprints.


Some of this people were fired, most government employes are affraid to vote against Chavez

Sorry, but is lunchtime. so, I will continue this later

[Unique]

I'm not worried about a Communist invasion from the Southern Hemisphere, I'm worried about South American countries being subjected to increasing pressures from both sides in this conflict, which may end up derailing some very promising movements towards freedom and self-determination.

They should be able to freely choose who they do business with instead of being polarized, which is where I think this will all end up. When that happens, war will come to South America, and every living soul there will be under the gun.

It's okay. Some of us understand where you're coming from, sc. It's all good.

Thanks for the totally inaccurate and stereotypical character evaluation. It's actually almost refreshing, since I usually get blasted for being overly critical of our corporate-driven foreign policy. But if it makes you feel better saying it, then be my guest.


really ... fascinating...

[Bad Penny]

Quite interesting the opinion of most people here!

the only thing missing is a pro-chavez Venezuelan's viewpoint

[William Haskins]

you're the next best thing, pen.

[Bad Penny]

I'd trust Chavez as much as I'd have trusted Huey Long, so no, I'm not

[robeiae]

so...you're saying that you're in the know then?But of course...

No, not really. I'm saying that your post, as a rebuttal to mine, is predicated solely on your belief that everyone who disagrees with you are hapless pawns, doing nothing but regurgitating the rhetoric they are spoon fed via the only possible information outlets that they could possibly access. It's a beautiful world view. And it's great for ego-stroking.

[Bad Penny]

American paranoia, control freakedness and hypocrisy is my reason for being in this thread

[robeiae]

American paranoia, control freakedness and hypocrisy is my reason for being in this thread
I don't see how your posts contribute to the first one, at all.

[Bad Penny]

But of course...

No, not really. I'm saying that your post, as a rebuttal to mine, is predicated solely on your belief that everyone who disagrees with you are hapless pawns, doing nothing but regurgitating the rhetoric they are spoon fed via the only possible information outlets that they could possibly access. It's a beautiful world view. And it's great for ego-stroking.

Well shit, you all sound enough like Wolf Blitzer...pointing at so called worse guys everywhere to apologize for your own evils

[Bad Penny]

I don't see how your posts contribute to the first one, at all.

that's either your fault or mine.

and neither one of us are in the know

[robeiae]

Well shit, you all sound enough like Wolf Blitzer...pointing at so called worse guys everywhere to apologize for your own evils
I don't have any evils. I do however, have a set of stone foo lions from the 6th century--and a ton of bad habits.

And I'm not pointing at anyone, nor am I apologizing for anything.

[Bad Penny]

There can't possibly be any kitties in wyoming. surely Cheney had them all diced up and stir fried

[SC Harrison]

Well shit, you all sound enough like Wolf Blitzer...pointing at so called worse guys everywhere to apologize for your own evils

Due to the incredible economic and strategic power our country can (and does) wield to influence the behavior of governments around the globe, it only takes a marginally bad U.S. President to be "worse" than the most evil bloodthirsty dictator in the Third World, simply because of the number of people impacted.

Our current President is a little south of marginally bad, and the world is less stable in his wake.

[Angelinity]

It's a faint, very very faint, glimmer of hope that we can put capitalism behind us some day.



That's what they said about Lenin.

if you're looking for socialist ideology to save the world... we ain't learnt a darn thang.

[Bad Penny]

That's what they said about Lenin.

if you're looking for socialist ideology to save the world... we ain't learnt a darn thang.

yeah. who wants to live in a dysfunctional hellhole like...sweden

socialism isn't communism

[Angelinity]

yeah. who wants to live in a dysfunctional hellhole like...sweden

socialism isn't communism

sweden happens to have a mere 9 million people. it's a constitutional monarchy... swedish history goes a little differently too, doesn't it?

[Bad Penny]

This whole world would have been better off with only 9 million people

[Bird of Prey]

RCTV Reappears on Cable and Satellite

Thursday, Jul 12, 2007

By: Chris Carlson - Venezuelanalysis.com




Mérida, July 12, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com)— Private television channel RCTV will be back on Venezuelan TV screens as of next Monday, via cable and satellite, RCTV General Director Marcel Granier announced at a press conference yesterday.

Off the air since May 27th when its broadcast license was not renewed by the Chavez government, RCTV will begin broadcasting again next week through cable and satellite with the same critical line against the Chavez government. Meanwhile, Gustavo Cisneros, in a televised statement yesterday, assured his channel Venevision would maintain a "balanced" position and commented that television channels should not play a role in the political conflict in Venezuela.

Radio Caracas Television (RCTV) will be viewable in 95% of the subscription television market starting Monday at 6:00 a.m., after being off the air for about a month and a half. The channel went off the national airwaves on May 27th, when the Chavez government denied it a renewal of its broadcast license that expired that day. The broadcast license, however, only applies to the national radio-electric spectrum, not subscription television such as cable and satellite.

The channel will be viewable through channel 103 on DirecTV, channel 13 on Intercable, Net Uno and Planet Cable (cable providers), which represent almost all of the national market for subscription television, and about 50 percent of the total population in Venezuela.

"We must return in the first place for our workers in order to try to keep the highest amount of talent possible," said Granier yesterday to justify the decision to broadcast by cable and satellite. "We confirm our commitment to Venezuela, with our audience, and with our workers. We won't cut back our efforts to recover the open airwaves across all national territory," he said.

Granier pledged to maintain a critical line against the government, and to continue fighting for "freedom of expression" and the return of the channel to the open airwaves. According to Granier, the channel's programming will be basically the same as before May 27th, which included several programs strongly opposed to the Chavez government such as a well-known political talk show in the morning called La Entrevista and its daily news program El Observador. . . http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2353

Doesn't sound too concerned about Chavez. . . .

[gerrydodge]

My one of my professors at Rutgers when I was an undergraduate was a lady by the name of Alice Crozier. She was a brilliant woman and came from New York old money--her dad hung out with Leonard Wharton and that crew. Anyway, her father and his cronies celebrated for three days straight, she told me, when Roosevelt died. In the world of capitalists, socialism is like communism, it's all the same to them. Spreading the wealth is for sissies.

[maxmordon]

Bird of Prey, I must add the fact that the government illegally expropiate the RCTV broadcasting equipments as their own...

[SC Harrison]

Doesn't sound too concerned about Chavez. . . .

Seeing as how the rural farmers and urban poor are his base supporters, who either can't afford cable or don't have access, I'm not sure Chavez is that worried about him, either.

[tourdeforce]

I have heard that Chavez submitted legislation that would pre-empt the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine in Venzuela.

That is never a good sign.

[Bird of Prey]

Bird of Prey, I must add the fact that the government illegally expropiate the RCTV broadcasting equipments as their own...


I'm aware, maxm. And I don't agree with that course. But the article suggests a political struggle, not people being taken out of their homes and murdered in the middle of the night, as has been implied by the attitude in certain posts. I thought it was important to note that freedom of speech is still accepted in Venezuela, albeit Chavez would have it censored. My real point underscores what I think BH was saying: what we tolerate in our own country - as we condemn the Venezuela of Chavez - is actually more egregious. The Patriot Act as it stands allows people to be dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night: no lawyer, no charges, no rights. Echoes of Pinochet. . . .

Much of this thread has dealt with the potential of Chavez versus the reality of Chavez. I submit that Venezuelan citizens will decide their own fate and Chavez will be reined in or let loose as they see fit, just as Americans must imminently decide how many more of their own rights will be usurped in the name of fear. The Patriot Act has set the stage for an American dictatorship, no less sinister than the nationalization policies of Hugo Chavez.

[tourdeforce]

Bird of Prey, I must add the fact that the government illegally expropiate the RCTV broadcasting equipments as their own...

Are we not now in an era in which any action by a government is now legal within its own soveriegnty based on the simple fact that the government is doing it?

[maxmordon]

You wouldn't believe, Prey, the things I have read outside Venezuela about Chavez. Things that goes to him being the liberator of Gringo Imperialism in latinamerica to being a new Stalin. all of them are exaggerated

Expirience as show me that very few people outside Venezuela has a real idea of Hugo Chavez

[maxmordon]

Except that those rural farmers and urban poor are apparently gaining access to free medical care, proper housing and education.

Perhaps cable comes next. Alas, if it's' anything like ours, they'd be better off without it.

Actually, Hospitals are always overcrowded. My grandfather didn't got a bed in any hospital in this city (a city with a pop. of 700.000) and everyday they are lowering the educational standard just to have more people "graduated"

[Jean Marie]

Actually, Hospitals are always overcrowded. My grandfather didn't got a bed in any hospital in this city (a city with a pop. of 700.000) and everyday they are lowering the educational standard just to have more people "graduated"
That's very sad, Max.

Not great health care, or education.

Sounds like a win for Chavez and a loss for his people. Maybe, that's why some refer to him as a dictator.

No wonder more immigrants want to come to the US. Our health care system may be in trouble, but you'll definitely get a decent education.

Sorry for your grandfather.

[tourdeforce]

It looks like Chavez is lowering standards across the board and raising an army of thugs in the process.


Nearly 12 percent of Venezualan military recruits who entered basic training this year needed a special waiver for those with criminal records, a dramatic increase over last year and more than twice the percentage four years ago, according to new statistics obtained by the Globe (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/13/america/13recruits.php).

[Unique]

-her dad hung out with Leonard Wharton and that crew. Anyway, her father and his cronies celebrated for three days straight, she told me, when Roosevelt died. In the world of capitalists, socialism is like communism, it's all the same to them. Spreading the wealth is for sissies.

I'd like to hear more of that story ... in another thread.

Back to Chavez!

Viva la something!

[maxmordon]

The police is worst, Turdeforce. Do you remember the cops from A Clockwork Orange?. Most of the police force used to criminal deliquents because nobody wants to be a cop

If the cops kills you here, they just put a gun in the crime scene and say that it was on self-defense

Poor people can get arrested and prosecuted in the same week, while rich people usually have endless trials that end up in home arrest by some "decease"

[Unique]

It looks like Chavez is lowering standards across the board and raising an army of thugs in the process.

oh. that sounds familiar.

I'd like to hear more of that story ... in another thread.

Back to Chavez!

Viva la something!

[Bird of Prey]

Actually, Hospitals are always overcrowded. My grandfather didn't got a bed in any hospital in this city (a city with a pop. of 700.000) and everyday they are lowering the educational standard just to have more people "graduated"

I believe it, Maxm. I also believe it's a huge job. I'm not defending Chavez, but I am defending his attempt in that regard: to bring some form of medical care to the people who otherwise would not have it.

Of course it takes time, and for your grandfather I'm sorry. I'm well aware of the deficiencies and the corruption.

By the way, no doubt you are right. No one knows the real Chavez other than a fellow countryman.

But, please, tell me what you thought of Venezuela prior to Chavez. Was your life significantly better? If so, I hope you'll say why.

[Jean Marie]

So, why is that people, wherever, support this fool, Max? I don't mean in your country. It's patently obvious that his intent is for you to suffer.

Personally, I'm glad you're here, to set the record straight on why Chavez is so horrible, hateful, etc.

Secondly, I'm sorry that you and your family are having to suffer through a dictatorship. It's a shame. Almost makes Cuba look...just as bad.

[Jean Marie]

I'm guessing that poverty sucks, totally and completely. That said, I'm also guessing that being ruled by a heartless tyrant, is somewhat worse.

Especially, when it's apparent that he only cares about accumulating personal wealth and world recognition at his own people's expense.

If it's free, there's a string attached. In this case, it appears to be personal freedom.

I do like what SH posted earlier, regarding putting some of S. America at risk, or vulnerable. Sorry for paraphrasing, Steve.

They're not as powerful as either the US or Venezuela.

[Bird of Prey]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/15/AR2007071500996.html

Venezuelans, fleeing Chavez, seek U.S. safety net


MIAMI (Reuters) - A surge in the number of Venezuelans seeking asylum in the United States has some drawing parallels with Communist Cuba in the early 1960s. . . .

The Venezuelans seeking asylum are just a small part of a big exodus, according to Venezuelan activists in Florida, who say some 160,000 Venezuelans are living in the United States illegally or on overstayed visas.

Critics of Chavez say that could mushroom as the Venezuelan leader, who dismisses his critics as "terrorists" and "fascists," pursues his vision of a 21st Century socialist revolution.

"I have no doubt that the middle class and those with some stake in the old Venezuela have legitimate concerns regarding their future livelihood and in some cases safety as the regime hardens and the state moves into every sphere of economic and social activity," said Riordan Roett, director of Latin American studies at Johns Hopkins University.

"If you have young children, you want out. If you have assets that have been seized, or may be seized, you want out as quickly as possible," Roett added. "If you have land that will be expropriated, leave sooner than later. As the alta (upper) bourgeoisie becomes more and more of a target, you want to leave before Hugo Chavez shuts the door. . . . "

[robeiae]

The first wave of Venezuelans hit Miami some years ago. I know a good number of doctors and lawyers from Venezuela currently working as waiters, salesmen, and the like in Miami. Many of them have money and property still in Venezuela, but are unable to get any of it out. They're afraid to go back, so they've just written it off.

Sad.

But Hugo's a swell guy. All he does, he does for love.

[Bird of Prey]

Some info about Carlos Perez, Chavez's predecessor:

In February 1989 , at the beginning of his second term as President, he accepted an International Monetary Fund proposal known as the Washington consensus. In return for accepting this proposal, the International Monetary Fund offered Venezuela a loan for 4.5 billion US dollars. Poor economic conditions led to attempts to revolutionize the political and economic structure of Venezuela, but were too late to prevent massive popular protests in Caracas, the capital, that were triggered by the rise in food prices. Carlos Andrés Pérez crushed the protest with the national guard, causing thousands of deaths, and resulted in the declaration of a state of emergency. The protest is now referred to as the Caracazo.

In February 1992 , his government survived two bloody coup attempts. The first attempt took place February 4, 1992, and was led by Lieutenant-Colonel Hugo Chávez, who was later elected President. Hugo Chávez' troops occupied the presidential palace. Carlos Andrés Pérez escaped through the garage of the palace and flew to a TV Channel, from where he was able to control the attempt. The second attempt took place on November 27, 1992, and was controlled by Pérez shortly.

In March 1993 , Attorney General Escobar Salom, a long-term personal enemy of Pérez, introduced action against Pérez for malversation of 250 million bolivars belonging to the secret party, funds which were actually used for supporting the electoral and democratization process in Nicaragua.[citation needed] On May 20, 1993, the Supreme Court considered the accusation sufficient, and nacional congress decided Pérez' suspension as President of the Republic. He was imprisoned and sentenced in a politically motived sentence to two years of prison on May 1994 for malversation of funds of the secret party. . . .


In 1998 he was imprisoned again, this time for holding joint bank accounts with his wife, Cecilia Matos. As he was elected Senator of the State of Táchira in 1998, he gained his liberty. Pérez lost this position when Chávez dissolved the Senate as an institution and created a unique National Assembly. He then left Venezuela and went into exile. In Miami, he has since gained notoriety by openly calling for the assassination of President Hugo Chávez. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Andr%C3%A9s_P%C3%A9rez

Chavez may be a radical swing of the pendulum, but very little happens for no reason. The poor were many.

[tourdeforce]

The first wave of Venezuelans hit Miami some years ago. I know a good number of doctors and lawyers from Venezuela currently working as waiters, salesmen, and the like in Miami. Many of them have money and property still in Venezuela, but are unable to get any of it out. They're afraid to go back, so they've just written it off.

Sad.

But Hugo's a swell guy. All he does, he does for love.


So when the going gets tough, the rich get going.

The wealthy and educated abandon the country instead of staying to make a stand for the future of their home?

Being a citizen means not splitting at the first sign of trouble.

You're supposed to be there for your country when it needs you most.

They deserve to lose all their money and property that they left behind.

[robeiae]

So when the going gets tough, the rich get going.

The wealthy and educated abandon the country instead of staying to make a stand for the future of their home?

Being a citizen means not splitting at the first sign of trouble.

You're supposed to be there for your country when it needs you most.

They deserve to lose all their money and property that they left behind.Whatever. You can certainly feel that way, and I don't begrudge you such feelings, at all. Though, you really don't know these people personally, to the best of my knowledge. You don't know what troubles they may have already faced, either. But it's cool.

Of course, I would reserve my contempt for those that manage to hold on to wealth, and even add to it, by helping with the oppression.

[Jean Marie]

Of course, I would reserve my contempt for those that manage to hold on to wealth, and even add to it, by helping with the oppression.
That's who I would hold in contempt, along w/ Chavez, of course.

Doesn't sound like Max is leaving. Doesn't sound as if he's got a choice, either? I suspect many like he and his family don't have a choice. Whereas, others who've differing circumstances, take the opportunity to leave when/if it presents itself.

[maxmordon]

But, please, tell me what you thought of Venezuela prior to Chavez. Was your life significantly better? If so, I hope you'll say why.

Well, I really don't remember a lot before Chávez; I was just a kid, and Dr. Caldera (the president then) was an eighty-something senile

http://www.nacion.com/traspaso98/caldera.jpg

But something one sure notice is the fact that everything was a lot cheaper (A Dollar is about 2.000 Bolivars, ten years ago a dollar was 500 Bolivars). I remember it was a lot easier to get a job, the economic depression seems to be ironic compared with the oil bonanza. The high number of closed bussiness is concerning

The old government didn't promote itself a lot. Chavez in the other hand...

http://www.soberania.org/Images/hugo_chavez_propaganda2.jpg

Back then, there was a lot less of hate. Now the people of both sides can't barely talk without going into an argument now

Back then, people of any party could be elected by a lot of charges. (Caldera was a former member of one of the main parties that became independent)

Back then, there was an industry; in my region, for example, half of the industry has closed down and now instead of providing an estable job, the government gives them an alm

Back then, agronomy was in agony; now is completely dead, we are importing most of our food

Back then, we had a troublesome country and that's why Chavez was elected. Nobody voted for a dictatorship (we don't have a good electoral history, we have voted for an alcoholic for president, a thieve for president and a former dictator for senator)

[maxmordon]

So, why is that people, wherever, support this fool, Max? I don't mean in your country. It's patently obvious that his intent is for you to suffer.

Personally, I'm glad you're here, to set the record straight on why Chavez is so horrible, hateful, etc.

Secondly, I'm sorry that you and your family are having to suffer through a dictatorship. It's a shame. Almost makes Cuba look...just as bad.

Saying that is Cuba is quite exaggerated. Mainly because Cuba actually had a revolution, we just had a presidential election. Chávez is not a Castro (doesn't matter how much he wishes to be one) he is more like a mediocre Perón. Elected by the desperated people for a change

Of course, is not as bad as some people pictured. Venezuela is no banana republic; and Chavez is aware that he can't just say, "Hey, I am the dictador now, shoot him in the face!" but he must do it slowly, and slowy. All the elections are rigged, we think that as a fact and we know what party is going to win. But at least you can march and the government knows that are TV cameras and that doesn't look right to the rest of the world (bad publicity) and after the RCTV thing the rest of the TV Channels chickened out

It's really odd that Talk Shows can't say his name (He is usually reffered as You know who, The one I was telling you) his name can be only said by official things and sometimes he starts to talk for hours and hours (thanks God the miracle of cable). There is quite a lot of crime (they can kill you in some places just for your shoes) and really sad to see kids begging in the avenues. Government propaganda are usually showed (even on cable) about how great we live and that now Venezuela is for everyone

You usually need a friend or a relative inside for having a decent job in the government (and of course, don't vote against the government, they fire you or don't give you a job or a loan or anything) and all the plans for the government to make industries ends up in some corruption scandal you barely hear

The television is quite censored (you now can't even mention beer before 8 pm) so all news broadcast aren't very informative and all are biased (by one side or the other) and the national anthem is played 3 times a day on radio and TV

The president sometimes dedicate to long speeches on Cadenas (official broadcastings that all TV networks are forced to show) about his travels, against president Bush, the last book he is reading, stories from his childhood (last week he was telling us how his brother covered with a sheet and scared his grandma saying he was a ghost or the day he met a fairy)

The worst part is that the government politicians are either recycled from the old government with a brand new shiny red package(my state governor has being governor since 1994) or underqualifed people (the chancellor used to be a bus driver)



And your question why people support him overseas? Mainly, because the only thing they know is that he is against Bush, claims to help the poor people and claims to have been re-elected several times (by an electoral council were all are fellow party members and the former chairman is suspiciously now vicepresident) and because his publicity campaigne works. (he goes around giving the oil money to everyone except to us, there is even a joke saying that he is doing it on alphabetical order)

[maxmordon]

That said, I'm also guessing that being ruled by a heartless tyrant, is somewhat worse.

He is not a heartless tyrant, he is just a buffon who wants to rule the rest of his life. He even says that he admires Venezuela's last dictator, Marcos Pérez Jiménez:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t77/maxmordon/Chvez.jpg

http://www.araguaney.info/images/expres5.gif

[maxmordon]

Birds of prey, I need to recapitulate a little bit the history of Venezuela. In the first period of Carlos Andrés Pérez Venezuela nationalized the oil and iron, so we were so rich and estable that the Bolivar was used in southamerica like the dollar is used in the rest of the world and the Venezuelan people didn't even paid taxes and a lot of people here compare Carlos Andrés with Chávez in his populism and money managment (Carlos Andrés gifted Bolivia a cruise, El Sierra Nevada, but Bolivia is landlocked) and he was almost impeached in his first government excecpt that he was saved by José Vicente Rangel (a man compared as Chávez's Cheney and considered in Venezuela as a man who has been in almost every political party including several that he made up to run like presidential candidate)

Venezuela lived with bonanza, then during the government of Luis Herrera Campins he liberated the prices and thanks a "computational error" the black friday occurred leaving us in a that we consider we never completely recovered

Then Jaime Luscinchi came, an alcoholic pediatrician, leaving us with a debt from 30.000 millions to 130.000 millions bolivars. And of course, corruption continued

It's 2 am, and I am quite tired. I Hope to continue this tomorrow

[Jean Marie]

Thanks, Max. I understand a lot more now. And appreciate your explanation.

I'm loving the education I'm getting :D

[Bird of Prey]

Birds of prey, I need to recapitulate a little bit the history of Venezuela. In the first period of Carlos Andrés Pérez Venezuela nationalized the oil and iron, so we were so rich and estable that the Bolivar was used in southamerica like the dollar is used in the rest of the world and the Venezuelan people didn't even paid taxes and a lot of people here compare Carlos Andrés with Chávez in his populism and money managment (Carlos Andrés gifted Bolivia a cruise, El Sierra Nevada, but Bolivia is landlocked) and he was almost impeached in his first government excecpt that he was saved by José Vicente Rangel (a man compared as Chávez's Cheney and considered in Venezuela as a man who has been in almost every political party including several that he made up to run like presidential candidate)

Venezuela lived with bonanza, then during the government of Luis Herrera Campins he liberated the prices and thanks a "computational error" the black friday occurred leaving us in a that we consider we never completely recovered

Then Jaime Luscinchi came, an alcoholic pediatrician, leaving us with a debt from 30.000 millions to 130.000 millions bolivars. And of course, corruption continued

It's 2 am, and I am quite tired. I Hope to continue this tomorrow

I know that Venezuela was quite well off during Andres Perez' seventies tenure; I have a family member who was doing business in South America at that a time who said that Caracas was a pretty city and quite vibrant. People seemed well off. Doesn't remember the ranchos. Apparently, those were the days. Unfortunately, corruption has long been a problem. Thank you so much for your recount.

Let me ask you, Maxm, if you have the chance, how do you see Venezuela progressing? What would make it better? Do you see any good at all coming from the direction of Chavez Frias?

[tourdeforce]

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t77/maxmordon/Chvez.jpg

Cesar Chavez attends Beatlefestiva in costume on the 40th anniversary for Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

[Bad Penny]

You just know Bush is itchin for the hour when he can get away with outfits like that

what is it with these psychos and dressup fetishes?

[RumpleTumbler]

The Cha Vessssssssss stables.

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1784/mlpstageop5.jpg

[tourdeforce]

http://www.araguaney.info/images/expres5.gif


Never having forgiven him for calling him Four Eyes in fifth grade, Generalissimo Jiménez knew he could use his new powers as supreme dictator to finally take away little Paulie Ramos' most prized possession- the Coochie Coochie ballpoint pen that had Charo wiggling when you turned it upside down.

[Bad Penny]

http://i7.tinypic.com/4thq4v7.jpg

[tourdeforce]

On a larger note, what is it about Central and South American cultures that has allowed corruption to become such a prominent part of their societies?

I would really like to know.

It is obviously on an endless cycle at this point, ingrained in the cultures, with each new generation assuming that is just the way things and looking for their share.

Of course, corruption is presented in American society but it is publicly condemned, officially forbidden and prosecuted when discovered.

[robeiae]

On a larger note, what is it about Central and South American cultures that has allowed corruption to become such a prominent part of their societies?They inherited Spanish and Portuguese bureaucracies, for the most part. It's all about class and patronage. Plus, it's hot.

[aadams73]

On a larger note, what is it about Central and South American cultures that has allowed corruption to become such a prominent part of their societies?


Yeah, strange isn't it? Parts of Africa seem to be a huge mess in that regard too. Idi Amin, anyone?


Of course, corruption is presented in American society but it is publicly condemned, officially forbidden and prosecuted when discovered.

Apparently not or Bush, Cheney and their flunkies would have been executed for treason. At the very least, they should be sitting in a 4X4 cell spearing rats with their toothbrush shivs.

[Angelinity]

On a larger note, what is it about Central and South American cultures that has allowed corruption to become such a prominent part of their societies?

I would really like to know.

It is obviously on an endless cycle at this point, ingrained in the cultures, with each new generation assuming that is just the way things and looking for their share.

Of course, corruption is presented in American society but it is publicly condemned, officially forbidden and prosecuted when discovered.

it's not only south & central america -- it's also most of africa & the middle east, former communist countries, china and its satellites, india, pakistan amd most other asian countries...

corruption becomes a tool -- a chance for john doe to get ahead in an unbalanced society where 'ordinary' people would otherwise not have a hope in hell to live a' decent' life. and often the definition of 'decent' in these places would hardly resemble the 'american idea of reasonable comfort and/or opportunity'.

in these societies, corruption is simply a symptom of the human need to survive -- people will pay any price for a chance. it's what breeds the tirants -- underlings give, so they take... and take... then start believing they are entitled to it all, that they are omnipotent... that they can and should rule the world -- for the ultimate and innevitable betterment of the world.

...the psychology is mind-boggling...

[TheGaffer]

Anyway, her father and his cronies celebrated for three days straight, she told me, when Roosevelt died.

That's just common idiocy.

[TheGaffer]

So when the going gets tough, the rich get going.

The wealthy and educated abandon the country instead of staying to make a stand for the future of their home?

Being a citizen means not splitting at the first sign of trouble.

You're supposed to be there for your country when it needs you most.

They deserve to lose all their money and property that they left behind.

Sorry boss, but that doesn't fly -- especially when your life may be on the line.

[RumpleTumbler]

The thing that strikes me most about senor Cha Vesssssss is his ability to be less of a man than a man who just made a lot of mistakes in his life. Somehow he has figured out how to be less than human. Few men in history have achieved that. At least Al Burrrrrrrrrito knows how to bend over, shut up and take it like a man.

[tourdeforce]

Sorry boss, but that doesn't fly -- especially when your life may be on the line.

America would still be a British colony if the people had not put their lives the line.

[Angelinity]

America would still be a British colony if the people had not put their lives the line.

true. but let's look at the history slice in context -- what alternative did the americans of the times have? flee where? find shelter where?

America (capitalised) was the 'promised land', the one place where they could have their own land and freedom. they were all (or almost all) new transplants, thirsting for independence and self-determination, there was no better alternative to standing their ground and fighting. they were 'cornered' in a way.

lacking other options, any peoples will stand and fight for their own.

[MattW]

America would still be a British colony if the people had not put their lives the line.Right, and America would have a population of about 30 million from decedents of English colonists.

If no one fled their home when things got tough, there'd be no Irish, Italian, Polish, Jewish, Russians, Chinese, Cubans, or Mexicans living in the USA.

[tourdeforce]

Right, and America would have a population of about 30 million from decedents of English colonists.

If no one fled their home when things got tough, there'd be no Irish, Italian, Polish, Jewish, Russians, Chinese, Cubans, or Mexicans living in the USA.


Leaving to find new, better opportunities is different than fleeing from your country when it is being stolen out from under them.

[tourdeforce]

true. but let's look at the history slice in context -- what alternative did the americans of the times have? flee where? find shelter where?

America (capitalised) was the 'promised land', the one place where they could have their own land and freedom. they were all (or almost all) new transplants, thirsting for independence and self-determination, there was no better alternative to standing their ground and fighting. they were 'cornered' in a way.

lacking other options, any peoples will stand and fight for their own.


"Cornered" in colonial America?

Two thirds of the country was unsettled and wide open for anyone seeking freedom and land of their own.

[Angelinity]

"Cornered" in colonial America?

Two thirds of the country was unsettled and wide open for anyone seeking freedom and land of their own.


...'open' is one way of putting it -- what about the 'barbarian' threat -- the... 'subhuman' redskins' who 'pillaged & burned' the honest man's settling for... um... no reason other than cruelty and sheer barbarism??

seems to me the country was not quite as open as all that... that these early settlers had learned some lessons on survival and mayhaps realised they needed to support a state that promised them freedoms impossible in their former lands -- hence they fought for themselves, not for their new country. or am i wrong?

[tourdeforce]

...'open' is one way of putting it -- what about the 'barbarian' threat -- the... 'subhuman' redskins' who 'pillaged & burned' the honest man's settling for... um... no reason other than cruelty and sheer barbarism??

seems to me the country was not quite as open as all that... that these early settlers had learned some lessons on survival and mayhaps realised they needed to support a state that promised them freedoms impossible in their former lands -- hence they fought for themselves, not for their new country. or am i wrong?


I think they rebelled for themselves but quickly came to fight for the idea of their own free and independent nation.

Once it became a formalized revolution, they were fighting for America.

[maxmordon]

The first wave of Venezuelans hit Miami some years ago. I know a good number of doctors and lawyers from Venezuela currently working as waiters, salesmen, and the like in Miami. Many of them have money and property still in Venezuela, but are unable to get any of it out. They're afraid to go back, so they've just written it off.

Sad.

But Hugo's a swell guy. All he does, he does for love.

That is something we call here in latinamerica "fuga de cerebros" (lit. Espace/leak of brains) and is something we consider a very pitiful situation, but the job situation is really bad, specially since the government is having this social program called Misión Barrio adentro and for quite a while they didn't hired any Venezuelan, just Cuban doctors straight from there. But then the doctors started to fleed to Colombia and from there to USA and they ended up hiring Venezuelan doctors

But those people sometimes exaggerate. I understand that people like Orlando Urdaneta (Venezuelan actor that self-exiled in Miami) fleed, or people like my father because of the unstable situation here has scared off most of the bussinessess and doesn't help new ones

[maxmordon]

So when the going gets tough, the rich get going.

The wealthy and educated abandon the country instead of staying to make a stand for the future of their home?

Being a citizen means not splitting at the first sign of trouble.

You're supposed to be there for your country when it needs you most.

They deserve to lose all their money and property that they left behind.

agree with you Tourdeforce, but as dictator Pérez Jiménez said while he was leaving with a suitcase full of 100US$ banknotes "Vamonos, que el pecuezo no retoña" (Roughly trasnlated: Let's go, that we only have one neck)

[tourdeforce]

That is something we call here in latinamerica "fuga de cerebros"


Cerebros is the name of the giant robotic exo-skeleton that I am building for myself in order to wreak havoc on New York.

[maxmordon]

That's who I would hold in contempt, along w/ Chavez, of course.

Doesn't sound like Max is leaving. Doesn't sound as if he's got a choice, either? I suspect many like he and his family don't have a choice. Whereas, others who've differing circumstances, take the opportunity to leave when/if it presents itself.

All the bureaucracy and paperwork for having a passport is a nightmare, and getting a Visa is the same story.

First, you must have your mandatory ID card (you usually get one of this when you are about 10) is easier, if not there is a lot more of paperwork. Then you must go to the ONIDEX website (National Office of Identification and the foreign) and ask for a date during the week (the website is always congested, and dates usually ran out in wednesday) or you can pay some employe (gestor) inside for giving you a date, usually in a office in the other side of the country

Then, you must arrive the night before or early morning in the day of your appointment and what some of you do outside cinemas waiting for the new Stars Wars movie.

Then, you wait in a office full with Chavez portraits and posters against gestors and you notice by the accents that most of the people there is suspiciously from other region of the country, like you. And then, because postal service is worthless (they usually steal anything valuable in the letters) you must go to pick your passport

The Visa is worst, they give a 6 months term for seeking things like birth certificate, work certificate, school grades report, bank reports, property reports and basically anything you got that certifies that you aren't going to be an illegal inmigrant. There, you must do more lines and passing over like four metal detectors to end up asking things from "Do you relate well with your coworkers?" to "Do you speak proper English?" and is the responsability of this person if you got a Visa or not. Usually not

you should see some of the questions of the Visa form sheet. The funniest one: Are you a terrorist?

I wish that the last thing was a joke, but that is an actual question; they also ask you: Have you ever been a member of the German National Solcialist(Nazi) party?

[gerrydodge]

That's just common idiocy.


I was appalled. I will never forget that story. Someday it will go in one of my books.

[TheGaffer]

America would still be a British colony if the people had not put their lives the line.

Sure. But Israel wouldn't exist if a good lot of people hadn't fled.

[maipenrai]

Chavez is I believe the man who as started the groundswell in South and Central America that will result in the Nations and people of that region finally ridding themselves of the shackles of the US Multi-Nationals.

[MattW]

Chavez is I believe the man who as started the groundswell in South and Central America that will result in the Nations and people of that region finally ridding themselves of the shackles of the US Multi-Nationals.And good riddance!

I know, given a choice, I'd much rather live under the rule of a megalomaniacal despot.

And multi-nationals are bad! With their free infrastructure projects and tens of thousands of jobs! A pox on them!

[tourdeforce]

Sure. But Israel wouldn't exist if a good lot of people hadn't fled.


Israel may be populated by many people who fled but it was founded and built by people with a vision for their own homeland who put their lives on the line to make it real.

[robeiae]

And good riddance!

I know, given a choice, I'd much rather live under the rule of a megalomaniacal despot.

And multi-nationals are bad! With their free infrastructure projects and tens of thousands of jobs! A pox on them!
Double pox!

Chavez is the same old song. Nothing new or original about him. It's just a question of--like it is for all dictators--how long he can hold on to power and a question of how big a hole his country will have to climb out of, once he's gone.

[maxmordon]

I know that Venezuela was quite well off during Andres Perez' seventies tenure; I have a family member who was doing business in South America at that a time who said that Caracas was a pretty city and quite vibrant. People seemed well off. Doesn't remember the ranchos. Apparently, those were the days. Unfortunately, corruption has long been a problem. Thank you so much for your recount.

Let me ask you, Maxm, if you have the chance, how do you see Venezuela progressing? What would make it better? Do you see any good at all coming from the direction of Chavez Frias?

I don't see anything good coming from Chávez, he says nothing and say it loud. His only plans for the future is to rule as long as he wants (he already says he wants to rule until 2021) and everything he plans seems to fall into oblivious a couple of weeks later.

See for example the bridge between Caracas and La Guaira over a ravine; Marcos Pérez Jiménez built that bridge and that bridge standed there for 50 years until fall down for the government's negligence. Then Chávez made a bridge... that fell down months later... Chávez likes publicity and thats why he send those gifts to the rest of the world having several problems here; from hospital being overcrowded to the milk scarcety


It hard to say what would make Venezuela better, we are obviously too dependent to our oil (we are the fourth biggest oil exporter and you can full the tank with 80 US cents) so we should try to seek to have an estable industry and of course agriculture (most of the food price problems is that Venezuela inports most of its food from overseas)

The one of the biggest acomplishments of the former government are the first local and regional elections in the history of Venezuela during the 80's and according to Chavez he wants to give the power to the people back by having mayors and governors with less and less power (We had already a civil war because of this)

a curious picture:

http://www.soberania.org/Images/hugo_chavez_francotirador.jpg

[maxmordon]

Interesting example of USA's duality:

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/venezuela/perez-jimenez-time.jpg


Cover of Time showing General Marcos Pérez Jiménez, showing him as a good president and promoting Venezuela. And 7 years later...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a2/Betancourt_cover.jpg/180px-Betancourt_cover.jpg

Cover of Time showing Rómulo Bentancourt, the man who took power after Pérez Jiménez's overthrown. Showing him as a good democratic president and promoting Venezuela

Marcos Pérez Jiménez was rewarded with the US Legion of Merit from the hands of Eisenhower while Bentancourt...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/RómuloBetancourt_JFK1961.jpg/300px-RómuloBetancourt_JFK1961.jpg


(Without counting when Richard Nixon was attacked in Venezuela in 1958, his car was saized and the rioters spitted on him while they were throwing him tomatoes)

[Bird of Prey]

Max, I know there are no simple solutions to Venezuela. Chavez has tapped into the idea of Venezuelan pride - South American pride - which is very seductive to the poor who have lost it through generations of desperation. I am sorry to hear that no good can come of him. I was hoping he would at least implement enough social programs to measurably raise the standard of living - across the board - of his country's citizens. . . at the very least educate the poor, as freedom has a much better survival rate with a fully educated populace.

Naturally, if Venezuela falls into complete decay, the people will not tolerate it. I do hope something of value - perhaps broad based education and medical care - is the silver lining in the otherwise darkening cloud of Chavez.

Thank you, Max.

[Unique]

Max, I know there are no simple solutions to Venezuela. Chavez has tapped into the idea of Venezuelan pride - South American pride - which is very seductive to the poor who have lost it through generations of desperation. I am sorry to hear that no good can come of him. I was hoping he would at least implement enough social programs to measurably raise the standard of living - across the board - of his country's citizens. . . at the very least educate the poor, as freedom has a much better survival rate with a fully educated populace.

Naturally, if Venezuela falls into complete decay, the people will not tolerate it. I do hope something of value - perhaps broad based education and medical care - is the silver lining in an otherwise darkening cloud.


Me, too, Bird. Me, too.

[whistlelock]

My opinion?

He's bad news. And like anyother strong-arm populist, he's gonna come to a bad end at the hands of his own people.

[Jean Marie]

My opinion?

He's bad news. And like anyother strong-arm populist, he's gonna come to a bad end at the hands of his own people.
I'm sure there's a large % of the population that can't wait until that actually comes to fruition.

He sure as hell is bad news, and then some.

[SC Harrison]

at the very least educate the poor, as freedom has a much better survival rate with a fully educated populace.



Yes and no.

Here's the thing, Bird. By all accounts the literacy rate in Venezuela has increased radically in the last five or six years, but the reason for that is not to elevate the poor, it's to indoctrinate the poor.

How do I know this? Because the main guy behind the reform of education is one Carlos Lanz Rodriguez who, among other things, is a devout Marxist idealogue. He's not merely a power-hungry opportunist like Chavez, this guy's the real deal. He's been a Marxist revolutionary for decades, and was behind the kidnapping of William Niehous back in the Seventies.

You can't indoctrinate the proletariat effectively if they can't read, so that's the first step. The next step is to remove teachers and texts that promote Capitalist viewpoints, and replace them with a good solid Marxist educational system.

I've said it before and I'll say it again—the Chavez reforms are not new and promising, they're as old as Mao's favorite socks.

[Bird of Prey]

Maybe, Steve, but I'll take the education in lieu of none and trust Venezuela to turn Mr. Chavez out at the proper moment. In the mean time, let there be education. . . and any kind of relief for the poor.

[William Haskins]

...because if georgie boy established an executive council on "morals and enlightenment" mandating compulsory indoctrination of the populace into the narrow focus of his political philosophy, BoP, et al. would view it as liberating of the spirit and uplifting for the downtrodden.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5c-gkg1T_UM

[robeiae]

...because if georgie boy established an executive council on "morals and enlightenment" mandating compulsory indoctrination of the populace into the narrow focus of his political philosophy, BoP, et al. would view it as liberating of the spirit and uplifting for the downtrodden.
Well, I think that's only common sense...

[William Haskins]

all too common.

[Bird of Prey]

...because if georgie boy established an executive council on "morals and enlightenment" mandating compulsory indoctrination of the populace into the narrow focus of his political philosophy, BoP, et al. would view it as liberating of the spirit and uplifting for the downtrodden.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5c-gkg1T_UM

I suppose this analogy would seem less silly if the poverty and illiteracy levels in the US were remotely comparable to Venezuela's.

[William Haskins]

so the end justifies the means, yes? if the stated goals are noble, then compulsory indoctrination sessions engineered by one man's vision of uniform thought and behavior are okay?

tell that to the cambodians. pol pot was into "teaching", too. those who played ball only had their spirits broken. the others are a pile of bones in the killing fields.

[Bird of Prey]

so the end justifies the means, yes? if the stated goals are noble, then compulsory indoctrination sessions engineered by one man's vision of uniform thought and behavior are okay?

tell that to the cambodians. pol pot was into "teaching", too. those who played ball only had their spirits broken. the others are a pile of bones in the killing fields.


It has nothing to do with the stated goals, Mr. Haskins. In countries where overwhelming corruption and perpetual poverty have been the norm, you take anything you can get, any way you can get it short of murder. If Chavez' ego drives a literate populace, you take it.

[William Haskins]

In countries where overwhelming corruption and perpetual poverty have been the norm, you take anything you can get, any way you can get it short of murder.

so mental slavery is fair game?

[Bartholomew]

so mental slavery is fair game?

Haskins, I'm seriously considering reporting you to Party officials for thought crime.

[Bird of Prey]

so mental slavery is fair game?

Just because people are illiterate does not make them fools, Mr. Haskins. Children grow up and are surprisingly full of their own ideas; adults think as they wish, regardless.

[William Haskins]

i made no comment on illiteracy, BoP.

but your contention that government indoctrination doesn't work is undermined by real actual history.

[Bird of Prey]

i made no comment on illiteracy, BoP.

but your contention that government indoctrination doesn't work is undermined by real actual history.

Indoctrination or intimidation, Mr. Haskins?


Regardless, neither is lasting.

[William Haskins]

Indoctrination or intimidation, Mr. Haskins?


Regardless, neither is lasting.

small consolation that is to the victims that arise from such programs.

the indoctrination of nazism lasted long enough for 11 million innocents to be systematically slaughtered.

the indoctrination of the cultural revolution lasted long enough for tens of millions to be murdered or starved.

the indoctrination of stalinism lasted long enough for tens of millions to be murdered or starved.

all dogmatic principles forced on the populace with the stated goal of state security, raising up the poor, establishing a utiopia.

yep. one fucking hell of a track record for indoctrination.

[Bird of Prey]

small consolation that is to the victims that arise from such programs.

the indoctrination of nazism lasted long enough for 11 million innocents to be systematically slaughtered.

the indoctrination of the cultural revolution lasted long enough for tens of millions to be murdered or starved.

the indoctrination of stalinism lasted long enough for tens of millions to be murdered or starved.

all dogmatic principles forced on the populace with the stated goal of state security, raising up the poor, establishing a utiopia.

yep. one fucking hell of a track record for indoctrination.

You are forgetting the void in which these indoctrination - although I see them as more intimidation - tactics became successful. And you are talking about murder, Mr. Haskins, something I thought I was rather clear about:

It has nothing to do with the stated goals, Mr. Haskins. In countries where overwhelming corruption and perpetual poverty have been the norm, you take anything you can get, any way you can get it short of murder. If Chavez' ego drives a literate populace, you take it.

The likelihood of mass indoctrination or intimidation as the case may be diminishes with every educated person within each successive generation in that - by that very education - the flow of truth and ideas are more accessible. That, coupled by the meeting of basic needs translates into individual dignity. Individual dignity leads to pride in independent thought, and ultimately, that can lead to an open society. Therefore, if Hugo Chavez plants the seeds that develop into a population that can read and write, he potentially sows the seeds of his own destruction.

[William Haskins]

your sunday morning chuckle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6910472.stm

[robeiae]

Those battalions are nothing at all like soviets.

How original.

[William Haskins]

goddammit, rob. if they learn to read and get real butter twice a month, it's worth it.

spare me your fascist crap, mkay?

[Bird of Prey]

your sunday morning chuckle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6910472.stm

Yes. Well, I suspect he'll only be able to push it so far. I'm sure Lula's wary, and imo, Brazil's the lynchpin in that region.

RCTV Case Causes Tensions between Brazil and Venezuela

By: Chris Carlson - Venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/images/people/chavezlula_p.jpg (http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/images/people/chavezlula.jpg)Venezuela's President Chavez and Brazil's President Lula inaugurate the second Orinoco Bridge last year.
Credit: Reuters/Archive
Caracas, June 4, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com (http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/))— The recent case of Venezuelan private television channel RCTV appears to have opened a rift in relations between Brazil and Venezuela after recent declarations made by the Brazilian Congress, and the response from Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Brazilian President Luiz Inacio “Lula” da Silva first came to the defense of the Brazilian Congress before Chavez' criticisms, but later made efforts to repair relations with Venezuela when one of his advisors defended Chavez' decision against RCTV. . . . http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2318

Also, in the interest of balance. . . .

In Defense of Chavez in Response to The New Statesman

By: Colin Burgon - New Statesman
Last week's cover story by Alice O'Keeffe (http://www.newstatesman.com/200707120028) [in the New Statesman, the ed.], claiming Hugo Chávez had polarised Venezuela, was a distorted snapshot, devoid of present or historical context. The inference that prior to Chávez, Venezuela was a largely stable generally united society is risible. Venezuela is a nation in flux and one of great importance to the UK. On this premise, O'Keeffe's imbalance must be challenged.
She presented a country in "cold civil war" mode, one that is led by a "power-crazed" Chávez could easily turn "hot". Labelling Chávez as such implies a denial of democratic expression by the Venezuelan population.
In fact, Chávez has won three elections - all free, fair and overseen by international observers - doubling his vote between the first election in 1998 and his last one in December 2006. There is a "Chavista" majority in the National Assembly because the opposition boycotted the 2005 congressional elections following strategic advice from Washington; so the result was a foregone conclusion.
The writer then highlighted the increase in the number of Venezuelans fleeing the country for the US and the serious levels of violent crime across Venezuela. On the former point, O'Keeffe makes no reference to the fact that this state of affairs is being encouraged by the US through forthcoming changes to immigration law that will allow Venezuelans privileged entry into the country over people from conflict-prone states such as Haiti, Somalia and Iraq. . . . http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=2101

[Angelinity]

in·doc·tri·nate -nat·ed, -nat·ing.
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning

indoctrination is in effect education -- dare i call it brainwashing?

the assumption that the more educated a person becomes, the more they can excercise free will and seek truths outside the dogma they are trapped in, is innacurate. a person, be he highly educated, will continue to see the world through the prism of the dogma which sets the foundation for his thinking.

successful indocrination of the masses is the most potent weapon a leader can use to build his own power base.

[robeiae]

Wait, they get real butter?

[Bird of Prey]

the assumption that the more educated a person becomes, the more they can excercise free will and seek truths outside the dogma they are trapped in, is innacurate. a person, be he highly educated, will continue to see the world through the prism of the dogma which sets the foundation for his thinking.



There was no such assumption. What I submit is that literacy enables a person to gain broader access to information. Broader access to information may lead to the introduction of ideas outside one's "prism." That exposure is bound to prompt exploration in certain individuals; naturally, in others it won't.

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea), attitudes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_%28psychology%29), cognitive strategies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognition) or a professional methodology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodology). It is often distinguished from education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education) by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking) the doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) they have learned. . . . .

Indoctrination refers to a wide range of different activities, and finding a single definition is problematic. In the fields of psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology), sociology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology) and educational research, more precise terms are often preferred, including (but not limited to): socialization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization), propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda), manipulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipulation), and brainwashing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

As Wiki suggests, it's kind of a loose term, probably better substituted with a specific.

[Angelinity]

There was no such assumption. What I submit is that literacy enables a person to gain broader access to information. Broader access to information may lead to the introduction of ideas outside one's "prism." That exposure is bound to prompt exploration in certain individuals; naturally, in others it won't.



guess the method Al Quaida & Bros use to 'make' their suicide bombers? they are 'educated'...

they are more often than not naive young boys from underpriviledged backgrounds and maybe from poor countries like... well we all know them, i won't name them here... who are given a bed to sleep in, a rug to pray on, three meals a day, and a... book.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52184

[William Haskins]

let's not forget the attempts in england and scotland a couple of weeks back. these men were doctors... and fanatics.

intelligence offers no immunity to indoctrination.

[Bird of Prey]

guess the method Al Quaida & Bros use to 'make' their suicide bombers? they are 'educated'...

they are more often than not naive young boys from underpriviledged backgrounds and maybe from poor countries like... well we all know them, i won't name them here... who are given a bed to sleep in, a rug to pray on, three meals a day, and a... book.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52184


I guess we're really not exactly debating because again, you have missed my point entirely. Nobody said anything about intelligence or education as an immunilty from "indoctrination," whatever that is. What I did say was education en masse broadens access to information which may be embraced.

I mean, where do you think the young protesters in Tianamen Square came from? Weren't they "indoctrinated," or did they somehow miss the entire "educational" process in China? Frankly, I suspect their ideas about democracy may have come through reading and study, and that's my point.

[Bird of Prey]

let's not forget the attempts in england and scotland a couple of weeks back. these men were doctors... and fanatics.

intelligence offers no immunity to indoctrination.

http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/gallery/d/8604-1/tiananmen-square-tanks.jpg

No, but education means better access to information.

[William Haskins]

No, but education means better access to information.

provided you start early...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw

[Bird of Prey]

provided you start early...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw

As you prefer. You are completely free to ignore my point.

[Angelinity]

I mean, where do you think the young protesters in Tianamen Square came from? Weren't they "indoctrinated," or did they somehow miss the entire "educational" process in China? Frankly, I suspect their ideas about democracy may have come through reading and study, and that's my point.

i figured that was your point and i am contending it. i respect your opinion, and you may not be entirely off base -- maybe there are such flashes in history, but those are the exceptions...

china's young students had some access to outside ideas -- hong kong was right there, there was some mingling and exchange.

as a (former) product of a dictatorial regime, i can tell you without doubt that an indoctrinated people have no will to fight because they are too busy processing and applying the dogma to every facet of their thinking. if there is no burst of new information/hope from outside the bubble, they cannot, they are mentally incapable of taking the leap.

i assume, because you had the priviledge of being bred in a society that encouraged free-thinking, you assume that free-thinking is a given in the psychological makeup of every human in earth -- sorry, i wish it were true.

[Bird of Prey]

i figured that was your point and i am contending it. i respect your opinion, and you may not be entirely off base -- maybe there are such flashes in history, but those are the exceptions...

china's young students had some access to outside ideas -- hong kong was right there, there was some mingling and exchange.

as a (former) product of a dictatorial regime, i can tell you without doubt that an indoctrinated people have no will to fight because they are too busy processing and applying the dogma to every facet of their thinking. if there is no burst of new information/hope from outside the bubble, they cannot, they are mentally incapable of taking the leap.

i assume, because you had the priviledge of being bred in a society that encouraged free-thinking, you assume that free-thinking is a given in the psychological makeup of every human in earth -- sorry, i wish it were true.

Angel, honestly, I think you're putting words in my mouth.

Let me make a simple statement and hope it sticks: literacy is better than illiteracy with regard to obtaining and expanding knowledge. O.K?

[William Haskins]

generally true.... however, if the folk are taught to read using mao's little red book as a primer, and have access to no other book but the little red book...

well, read your history to find out how that ends. (spoiler: generally, it ends with a lot of blood).

[Angelinity]

Angel, honestly, I think you're putting words in my mouth.

Let me make a simple statement and hope it sticks: literacy is better than illiteracy with regard to obtaining and expanding knowledge. O.K?

i'll call it off if you want... i don't necessarily agree -- but so be it.

[Bird of Prey]

generally true.... however, if the folk are taught to read using mao's little red book as a primer, and have access to no other book but the little red book...

well, read your history to find out how that ends. (spoiler: generally, it ends with a lot of blood).

I guess what I'm wondering is: would you prefer they have no literacy at all, no access to any book? Seriously.

[Bird of Prey]

i'll call it off if you want... i don't necessarily agree -- but so be it.

Literacy is better than illiteracy with regard to obtaining and expanding knowledge.

You don't agree with that statement?

[Jean Marie]

If said dictators will actually allow access to books other than what's on their list, then fine. Generally, not the case as both Haskins and Angelinity pointed out. And Angelinity is from such a state.

I think it's you, BoP, who's missing the point. Especially, when you've 2 individuals in this thread who're from dictatorial regimes. I'd listen to the experts, in this instance. Sometimes, defending the right to be right is wrong.

[Bird of Prey]

I think it's you, BoP, who's missing the point. Especially, when you've 2 individuals in this thread who're from dictatorial regimes. I'd listen to the experts, in this instance. Sometimes, defending the right to be right is wrong.


LOL! You really are a hoot, JM!

[Jean Marie]

LOL! You really are a hoot, JM!
Think what you'd like, BoP. But so far, you've not listened to anyone in this thread. You've insisted on being right, regardless of who it is and debated your right to be right. I've been following along and you're not listening to anyone, including those who've lived under dictatorial regimes.

Last time I checked, you live in the USA.

Carry on.

[Angelinity]

Literacy is better than illiteracy with regard to obtaining and expanding knowledge.

You don't agree with that statement?

not necessarily.

reason being, i assume you deem literacy to be the end result of knowledge taught systematically by a body of 'accredited' professional 'teachers'.

to me, true literacy is acquiring the tools necessary for the understanding of the world one lives in. if you're a farmer, you need to understand the ways of nature and plant, etc,. propagation. to me, a professional farmer is litterate in his field.

learning to read and write is not necessarily a forward leap in litteracy -- it is a change of vocation, maybe... a side-step.

[Jean Marie]

Interesting how everyone's wrong, except you, BoP. It's a fact, read back through your posts.

They're not all wrong, Bird. Could be you.

[Bird of Prey]

generally true.... however, if the folk are taught to read using mao's little red book as a primer, and have access to no other book but the little red book...

well, read your history to find out how that ends. (spoiler: generally, it ends with a lot of blood).

Let me rephrase my question as I don't think I was clear. Would you prefer no literacy at all and thus no readable access to a singular indoctrinating philosophy over say, literacy but the availability of only one philosophy, one book?

[Jean Marie]

You do a considerable amount of rephrasing, too.

Okay, BoP, I'm oughta here.

Have fun :)

[Bird of Prey]

not necessarily.

reason being, i assume you deem literacy to be the end result of knowledge taught systematically by a body of 'accredited' professional 'teachers'.

to me, true literacy is acquiring the tools necessary for the understanding of the world one lives in. if you're a farmer, you need to understand the ways of nature and plant, etc,. propagation. to me, a professional farmer is litterate in his field.

learning to read and write is not necessarily a forward leap in litteracy -- it is a change of vocation, maybe... a side-step.


No, literacy to me is simply the ability to read and write. I thought that was the traditional definition. But if it's different for you, I understand.

That better explains your position to me. I don't necessarity agree with you, but I know where you're coming from now.

[Bird of Prey]

maybe to end on a good note. . . . sometimes good things happen. . . .

Argentine first lady launches presidential bid

AFP - Friday, July 20BUENOS AIRES (AFP) - - Senator Cristina Fernandez, wife of outgoing President Nestor Kirchner, on Thursday launched a campaign for her husband's job, with ambitious promises to reform Argentina.*

Fernandez, 54, already the clear favorite to succeed her husband, kicked off in her hometown of La Plata the campaign to become Argentina's first woman elected to the presidency.

She spoke in a packed theater to the applause of 1,700 party leaders and flanked by pictures of Eva and Juan Domingo Peron, the power couple that ran Argentine politics, unions and economy during the 1940s and 1950s.

Her platform, sketched out in a 45-minute speech, was ambitious: a change in "Argentines' cultural paradigms" and "recovery of our self-esteem, work and jobs, as the axis of the Argentina that is to come."

She was interrupted repeatedly by applause, the most tumultuous coming after recognizing the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, who for decades protested the loss of their children at the hands of Argentina's 1976-1982 military dictatorship. . . .

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070720/twl-argentina-politics-4bdc673.html


*Something about that seemed funny.

[William Haskins]

AFP - Friday, July 20BUENOS AIRES (AFP) - - Senator Cristina Fernandez, wife of outgoing President Nestor Kirchner, on Thursday launched a campaign for her husband's job, with ambitious promises to reform Argentina.*

*Something about that seemed funny.

agreed. it's either funny in that it's the same thing that chavez is doing—which should be borne out by some report that compulsory instruction is being mandated in the communities and in the schools, or it's funny because it's yet another stark reminder of the strange balance you strike between being totally oblivious to the crux of the issue and deliberate obfuscation.

[Bird of Prey]

agreed. it's either funny in that it's the same thing that chavez is doing—which should be borne out by some report that compulsory instruction is being mandated in the communities and in the schools, or it's funny because it's yet another stark reminder of the strange balance you strike between being totally oblivious to the crux of the issue and deliberate obfuscation.

It was funny because she was promising reform as the wife of the outgoing president.

Look, not everything is bleak and bleaker, Haskins. And not everything and everyone is a black as the neocons paint. And there's no "deliberate obfuscation," although it sure was a lousy thing to say.

[William Haskins]

question for you, BoP? should chavez have been kicked out of the US when he came to the UN and called bush the devil and delivered a scathing diatribe against the united states?

[robeiae]

I know Baba O'Riley is a perennial favorite for critic and fan, alike, with regard to "Who's Next." But personally, I prefer Bargain. Still, Won't Get Fooled Again may be the long-term champ.

[Bird of Prey]

question for you, BoP? should chavez have been kicked out of the US when he came to the UN and called bush the devil and delivered a scathing diatribe against the united states?

You mean like Rudi with Arafat? The UN is supposedly an entity to itself, representing the globe, Mr. Haskins or have you forgotten that? I mean it's not supposed to be a US prop. So I suppose you know my answer.

Regardless, I'd prefer you first answer my question about literacy.

[William Haskins]

i think i've answered that question. even so, yes, i know that the UN real estate is technically not the US, but i doubt he slept and drove exclusively on UN grounds.

i guess what i'm getting at is this story.

Chavez: Critical foreigners to get boot (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070723/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_chavez)

if you do the logic math, it's pretty obvious that, if a leader can control thought and commentary at home (he's made strides toward each), and he can stifle public access to foreign opinion, well he's sort of got a captive audience, doesn't he?

literacy is no remedy here.

[Bird of Prey]

i think i've answered that question. even so, yes, i know that the UN real estate is technically not the US, but i doubt he slept and drove exclusively on UN grounds.

i guess what i'm getting at is this story.

Chavez: Critical foreigners to get boot (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070723/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_chavez)

if you do the logic math, it's pretty obvious that, if a leader can control thought and commentary at home (he's made strides toward each), and he can stifle public access to foreign opinion, well he's sort of got a captive audience, doesn't he?

literacy is no remedy here.

O.K. So you would prefer foreign investment, the status quo prior to Chavez and no reading or writing skills for the mass amount of poor in lieu of him, right?

[William Haskins]

heh. why do i bother...

[Bird of Prey]

heh. why do i bother...

Just exactly what do you want for Venezuela that can be implemented without some fairy tale - all will be well, children - Gandhi-like leader to make it all better? Because it doesn't exist there!

Do you honestly think Venezuela wasn't corrupt before Chavez? Do you really think some pure of heart - some messiah - will save freedom and see that the poor get three squares in Venezuela, elevate them with absolutely no incentive? Are you mad?

[William Haskins]

you're right. i want a leader who's forcibly consolidating all the political parties that are even remotely loyal to him into a bloc, who's revoking licenses for networks who disagree with him, who's arming loyalists among the general public, who's establishing forced indoctrination and who's taking steps to suppress any dissenting views from abroad.

oh, and if he could progressively be taking steps to rule by mandate and extend his term far beyond the constitutional criteria, that'd be great, too.

because, yeah, it's either that or total enslavement by the robber-barons (read: evil americans).

thank you for helping me see the light.

[Bird of Prey]

you're right. i want a leader who's forcibly consolidating all the political parties that are even remotely loyal to him into a bloc, who's revoking licenses for networks who disagree with him, who's arming loyalists among the general public, who's establishing forced indoctrination and who's taking steps to suppress any dissenting views from abroad.

oh, and if he could progressively be taking steps to rule by mandate and extend his term far beyond the constitutional criteria, that'd be great, too.

because, yeah, it's either that or total enslavement by the robber-barons (read: evil americans).

thank you for helping me see the light.

Well, William, rather than fret about Chavez, who will be ousted if he goes too far - yes, it could and probably will happen - maybe it's better to let him at least elevate poor finally, since you don't seem to have any better ideas.

[William Haskins]

did you even bother to read the BBC graphic i posted on the first page of this thread?

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1474269&postcount=23

he ain't elevating shit except the number of poor...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42325000/gif/_42325793_venezuela_social2_203.gif

[Bird of Prey]

People's devils are their angels. The same qualities that catapult them to power usually have a dark counterpoint. We can only hope that for the time that they control, that there is something to be gained from their ambition. That is my hope with Chavez, not that he endures, but that his legacy makes a difference for those who have seen nothing but poverty's enslavement for generations.

Yes, I saw your post. The trouble is, I don't know what to believe, because there's a pretty credible counter to the bbc graph.

And William, did you look at the description of "E?" I mean, does that sound. . . scientific? And the chart's comparing 1984??

O.K. I'll give it to you. . . . Chavez is terrible. Now show me a graph on literacy so you can reign supreme.

[William Haskins]

Well, William, rather than fret about Chavez, who will be ousted if he goes too far

read this again and impress upon yourself the absurdity and abject arrogance of liberal saying this from the comfort of an open society. you don't have to live through what's going to happen before the elite left say "oopsie! guess we were wrong!"

if he, in fact, does turn out to be a brutally repressive dictator, such a mentality is about as callous as you can get.

go on, substitute any dictator's name for chavez in your quote, and think about what you're really saying...

[Bird of Prey]

read this again and impress upon yourself the absurdity and abject arrogance of liberal saying this from the comfort of an open society. you don't have to live through what's going to happen before the elite left say "oopsie! guess we were wrong!"

if he, in fact, does turn out to be a brutally repressive dictator, such a mentality is about as callous as you can get.

go on, substitute any dictator's name for chavez in your quote, and think about what you're really saying...

Well, I'll do that. At the same time, I can only hope you can imagine what it is to have no money, no literacy, no skills and no pride.

[William Haskins]

Well, I'll do that. At the same time, I can only hope you can imagine what it is to have no money, no literacy, no skills and no pride.

i'm from louisiana.

i'm hip.

[Bird of Prey]

i'm from louisiana.

i'm hip.

Right. In other words, you have no clue. Good night.

[William Haskins]

Good night.

In Dreams (for hugo - with deepest apologies to roy orbison)

A candy-colored clown they call the sandman
Tiptoes to my room every night
Just to sprinkle stardust and to whisper
Go to sleep. everything is all right.

I close my eyes, then I drift away
Into the magic night. I softly say
A silent prayerlike dreamers do.
Then I fall asleep to dream my dreams of you.

In dreams I walk with you. in dreams I talk to you.
In dreams youre mine. all of the time were together
In dreams, in dreams.

But just before the dawn, I awake and find you gone.
I cant help it, I cant help it, if I cry.
I remember that you said goodbye.

Its too bad that all these things, can only happen in my dreams
Only in dreams in beautiful dreams.

[Bartholomew]

The Venezuelans I know hate the man. They tell horror stories about him; I have no reason to doubt their word, especially after seeing this--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI0_VzFxTzs

Maturity at its acme. Chavez is about as fit to lead a country as I am.

[RumpleTumbler]

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/425/chavezahmedinejad757751on0.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chavezahmedinejad757751on0.jpg)

I wrote my mother, I wrote my father
And now I'm writing you too-oo-oo

I'm sure of mother, I'm sure of father
And now I want to be sure, very-very sure of you-ou

Don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me
Anyone else but me, anyone else but me
No-no-no, don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me
Till I come marching home

Don't go walkin' down Lover's Lane with anyone else but me
Anyone else but me, anyone else but me
No-no-no, don't go walkin' down Lover's Lane with anyone else but me
Till I come marching home

I just got word from a girl who heard from the girl next door to me
The boy she met just loves to pet and it fits you to a tee
So, don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me
Till I come marching home

Don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me-ee
With anyone else but her, no-no-no, not a single sole but me
No-no-no, don't you sit under the apple tree with anyone else but me
Not till you see me, not until you see me marchin' home
Home-home, home sweet home

Don't go walkin' down Lover's Lane with anyone else but me-ee
With anyone else but her, no-no-no, not a single sole but me
No-no-no, don't you go walkin' down Lover's Lane with anyone else but me
Not till you see me, not until you see me marchin' home
Home-home, home sweet home
Just wait till I come marching home

So don't go walkin' down to lovers lane
No walkin' down to Lover's Lane
Till you see me, when you see me marchin' home
Then we'll go arm in arm
And sit down under the apple tree, baby just you and me
When I come mar-arching ho-ome...

Glenn Miller

[maxmordon]

Just exactly what do you want for Venezuela that can be implemented without some fairy tale - all will be well, children - Gandhi-like leader to make it all better? Because it doesn't exist there!

Do you honestly think Venezuela wasn't corrupt before Chavez?

That's why he was elected in first place

[maxmordon]

The Venezuelans I know hate the man. They tell horror stories about him; I have no reason to doubt their word, especially after seeing this--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI0_VzFxTzs

Maturity at its acme. Chavez is about as fit to lead a country as I am.

Everyone must have in mind that all outside information is biased. They show Hugo either like a Castro-wannabe or some ideallistic leader that will beat Gringo imperialism from Latinamerica

[Bartholomew]

Everyone must have in mind that all outside information is biased. They show Hugo either like a Castro-wannabe or some ideallistic leader that will beat Gringo imperialism from Latinamerica

That isn't an outside source. It was a speech he chose to give. He has the maturity of a five year old.

[maxmordon]

That isn't an outside source. It was a speech he chose to give. He has the maturity of a five year old.

I know he is inmature and unprepared, I don't like him as a leader as you can see in my other messages; just that some people exaggerated

[Joe270]

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and no one wants to hear from them, or smell them.

Chavez is an asshole dictator. So what? The Venezuelans seem to like him just fine. He hasn't killed a few million of his countrymen yet.

They have hated the US and Europe since ww2 because we 'stole their oil' to fight that war. The hatred was evident to me in my nine visits to their country. So here's one American who won't be calling for intervention once he starts purging, killing wantonly.

Hey, what goes around, comes around. My life wasn't worth a crap to you folks, why should I want to save yours? I faced down machine guns six times in your country, and I didn't like it one bit. A co-worker was murdered there.

I don't really feel any compassion for the citizens of Venezuela after my treatment there. They hate all Americans, fine. Cool with me. I won't spend my money there. I make a point of not filling up at citgo stations, despite knowing it won't make a difference.

I won't ever spend a dime at a BP station again in my life.

Yeah, Chavez is a total asshole, and so is S.Penn, they deserve each other. Let the bloodbath begin.

[Bad Penny]

my god, Joe. the language

[Andrew]

Don't know what is really happening in Venzuela--but his shutting down a television network that reportedly may have been critical to him says it all as far as I'm concerned.
It seems he doesn't want the masses to hear a different point of view. Not good.

[Joe270]

Nice start, Andrew, now dig for the real story.

Don't listen to my side, or Tours, or PoB's, or Spooky's. Read what we say, read the supporting evidence posted, and form an intelligent view.

Then keep getting more information and reform your view as needed.

That's how you deliver an intelligent vote for your representatives, who will prove supremely less informed than you by then.

[SpookyWriter]

Go to bed Joe.

[Joe270]

Oh, I'm snoozing already, Spook.