Short story versus novels

[novelator]

I know a lot of novelists write short stories, articles, and other things. And maybe I'm just looking for a litte reassurance here, but I don't care for writing short stories, just as I don't care for writing nonfiction or poetry. The only short story I wrote this year ended up five thousand words and I could've wrote a book. In fact, I still might. I love writing novels. I think to sit down and write a short story only to have it turn into a book. So, to be a successful novelist, do I need to conquer these other facets of publishing? Or can I just focus on this one, which is truly my passion? Are there others out there who write only novels?

I've had all of the above published, except my novels, but I haven't really shopped my books in earnest yet. I qualify that by saying I have one at an agent now.

I must be in one of those doubting Thomas phases most of us go through, but I would love to know what you think.

Mari

[CaoPaux]

IMO, writing a short story takes an entirely different skill set than writing a novel. Some people can develop both, others can't. If it ain't your thang, don't sweat it.

[preyer]

i very rarely work on short stories. every other blue moon i might get the itch, but it doesn't take much to scratch it, usually a few pages or so. i don't want to be a short story writer, so i honestly don't see the point in wasting my time doing something i don't want to do. besides the occassional urge, they're just etudes anymore, practice for the big game, and not 100% revelant practice at that.

i'm assuming you've written an ass-load of short stories, right? got anything there left to prove to anyone or yourself? they're just different critters to trap. i've converted some old short stories to the comp., even written a few on it, partially out of whim, partially just to show other people my style and get some feedback. other than that, i have no use for 'em. i never even tried to get any of them published, which is my bad.

why bother if you have no desire to do them? if i'm trying something new, i'll try it in the book and see if it works. the closest i get to short stories anymore is the very rare serial work i do towards an overall collection *for a book,* lol. even then, it's all based in the same 'universe,' just different aspects of it when i feel the need to get all my ghostly ya-ya's out. i don't write articles or poetry or nutritional labels for choco-cocoa puffs cereal boxes, either.

do you need to have a hundred short stories published to be a successful novelist? of course not. not that it wouldn't hurt. i don't know what motivates a novelist to write these things, but i say if you don't want to do it, don't. if it helps your career, i reckon that's another thing to consider, but if it seriously detracts from what you want to be, well....

[Writing Again]

When I first started writing it was pretty generally agreed that writing short stories for magazines was a good training ground for writing.

I do not think that holds true any more: Here's why.

At that time there were so many markets that if you had any talent at all you could get published and paid for it. Now markets are few and only the best ever get published in a paying market.

At that time editors would put little notes on your ms when they returned it. True some of those notes drove me nuts, and did little to help, but over time they helped. I remember one in particular: "Your concept shows promise but the execution is weak." What the hey does that mean? Editors don't do that much any more.

It taught a writer to deal with editorial demands, to be parsimonious with words, to plot a story, to develop character in a few words.

That was then: This is now. Without feed back and sales I don't see the point of mastering short stories.

[mr mistook]

I've never even tried to write a short story yet, but I've got some respect for the mode. It seems to me that one chapter in a novel is quite like a short story.

Some of the theory of "scene" writing I've read seems to demand that even within a chapter, every scene must read like a self-contained story.

Going by conventional wisdom, the perfect chapter is a series of related micro-stories, and the perfect novel is a series of related short-story chapters, all following a great bell curve, etc.

I think what we've lost touch with is that the novel is a "long story" and that it is "novel", which is to say, "new". In my opinion, there really should be some time set asside in every chapter to just smell the roses. There should be odd things going on in novels that have nothing at all to do with the plot or character development, or anything. A novel, to me is an exploration. It's roots are with the epic poem, after all.

Whatever happened to the novel for it's own sake? Today it's all about fitting into a genre formula. In one way that helps an author maintain focus and target a market, but on the other hand, it stifles creativity.

[veingloree]

How many novels have you written? I, personally, write short to get more stuff published. Alonbg the way I learned to love them too. Writing long fiction makes for a long wait for gratification and I am too MTV-generation to do only novels.

[Writing Again]

How many novels have you written?

This is a point to consider. When writing short stories I could not write enough salable fiction and articles to keep up. You had to sell at least one a week. That is 52 a year. To be able to earn a minimum living.

I could not come up with 52 good ideas a year, plus I was never good enough to sell everything I wrote -- You get the picture. And that was when every magazine and Sunday supplement ran at least one story every issue.

A novel you write one, two, maybe three a year if you hack them out full time and not doing any other job, though I've been a long time on my current WIP.

I've always wished there was a good steady market for novellas in the twenty to thirty thousand word market. That seems like a nice length.

[veingloree]

I love novella length, but other than erotica it doesn't have many markets.

[novelator]

Well, to answer veinglory's question--I'm over half-way through my tenth novel now.

And I see your point, Writing Again. It used to be so much easier to publish short stories. I've gotten those vague comments on rejections, too, although the last one was rather detailed with an invitation to send something else if I wished, which I took as a compliment, considering I wrote the story almost two years ago. And I will address the comments, revise a little more, and when I find an appropriate market, sell the durn thing.

I don't have a bunch of short stories lying around. Most of mine were born of prompts from a writing group to which I used to belong, but they're nothing like the ideas for novels that hit me in the head with the force of a lightning bolt out of nowhere. The opening scene unfolds before me, as if I were, for one moment, standing before a window to an alternate world.

This morning I woke up thinking about this, thinking I should know better. I'm a novelist. Time I quit worrying over the verdict and get to work on the sentence.

Thanks so much for your answers here.

Mari

[vstrauss]

>>Are there others out there who write only novels?<<

Yes. Writing novels and writing stories are two very different crafts. I have huge admiration for writers who can do both. Not all can.

My natural inclination is, and always has been, toward novels. The first serious thing I ever wrote was a novel. Later, I did work on short stories, because I'd heard it was the proper way to hone one's craft; but I had a tough time coming up with story ideas, I didn't enjoy writing them (most tried to turn into novels), and--more to the point--they were not publishable, though it took me some time to realize that. I honestly don't think I learned anything from my story efforts; it was just a completely uncongenial form for me.

I do have a couple of ideas rattling round, and I think I might give it another try next year, to see if anything has changed with the passage of time.

- Victoria

[Jamesaritchie]

I write both short stories and novels. And articles and poems. I've even sold recipes a time or two, though each has had a story attached. I love writing and reading short stories. I've sold close to 100 short stories, and it's always fun. But novels and short stories are very different forms of writing, and just because you can do one well doesn't necessarily mean you can do the other well.

I do think good short story writers can become novelists easier than novelists can become good short story writers.
Many, many novelists get their start by first selling short stories in their chosen genre, particularly if that genre is literary, science fiction, or fantasy. I've done the same with western, mystery, and outdoor short stories. There are still a bunch of markets for literary short stories, and quite a few for science fiction and fantasy. The only genre where I can't find more markets than I need is the western genre.

And selling short stories to top magazines is a big plus with agents and editors. It tells them you beat some extremely tough competition, and that someone though enough of your writing to pay you good money for it. And you bring along something of a built-in fan base to your novels.

My editor told me she picked my first novel over some contenders solely because I had already sold short stories to national magazines, and the other writers hadn't. I also just received a contract for a couple of mystery novels because I've sold short stories to mystery magazines, including three to Ellery Queen, and that many of those who read Ellery Queen also read mystery novels. The fan base thing again. The short story sales were the reason the editor agreed to a contract before I actually wrote the novels, or anything else.

My agent always gives priority to writers who list short story sales in their query letters. There's a sister agency my agent frequently works with, and they do the same. My agent almost never takes on a new writer who hasn't sold some short stories, primarily because she doesn't have to. She receives far more queries from published writers each year than she can possibly take on.

But if you don't like writing and reading short stories, it's silly to do so. It's tough writing anything well if you aren't enjoying what you're doing. Good short story credits can and do impress agents and editors, but they certainly aren't necessary. Many a novelist breaks in without ever attempting a short story.

I write short stories because I love writing them and love reading them. I think short stories are a wonderful form of writing, maybe the best, and many stories need to be told by short story, rather than by novel. A big mistake a lot of new writers make is trying to write a novel using a plot that really fits a short story.

And trying to write short stories with money in mind is just nuts. The money is in novels. Short story sales can be impressive because the competition is many times tougher here than in the novel market, and agents and editors know this. Short stories that appear in national magazines can give a boost to novel sales, and this is a good thing. But neither is a reason to write short stories. The reason to write short stories, articles, poems, or anything else is because you love writing whatever it is. If you don't love it, you probably can't do it very well, anyway.

[novelator]

I really appreciate the input here. My passion is with the novel, no doubt about that. I have to think that when I posted the question, I was worried that I might lack something integral to my success as a novelist. I've sold a few short stories, none to major national magazines as of yet, although I've submitted a time or ten, and I'm proud of the rejections, glad that I tried. However, I don't like writing short stories. Like Victoria, mine all want to turn into books.

James, I can't imagine writing anything with money in mind. My life has never been about money, but what I could learn, live, love, and enjoy. Writing in general, novels in particular, fills this bill and then some. I do want to carve my own niche, but I reason that even if I never make it that far, just chasing the goal is bound to take me somewhere.

You are a great bunch of people. Thanks for letting me hang around. I've learned so much already.

Mari

[Jamesaritchie]

James, I can't imagine writing anything with money in mind. My life has never been about money, but what I could learn, live, love, and enjoy.

Well, I have nothing against writing for money. I became a writer, sat down and wrote my first short story purely because I needed the money, and I've written a bunch of articles in my time just for the money.

Having said this, I found about ten minutes after I started that first short story that I really enjoyed writing, and I learned that while writing for money is certainly possible, wrtiting because you love it brings more pleasure and better results.

[preyer]

and those big magazines can pay pretty damn well, too. 'playboy,' for instance, pays handsomely for articles. i'd read years ago they pay around $1500 an article (just a very generic example: i don't know if that paycheck rests on a lot of conditions).

too, i think one of the best advantages of getting short stories published is you don't necessarily have to have an agent and it boosts your confidence, perhaps a good idea upon your 1,432rd novel rejection (at which point you might want to consider going to a trade school, anyway).

what's the top price for a short story, anyway? around 3 1/2 cents a word? been a looong time since i checked any of that stuff out. part of the reason i never submitted was i just wasn't sure where most of my stories belonged, being very genre-vague.

[Jamesaritchie]

what's the top price for a short story, anyway? around 3 1/2 cents a word? been a looong time since i checked any of that stuff out

Pay rates, and how much you can earn overall, depends largely on what you write and who you write it for, but you can make substantially more than 3 1/2 cents per word. On rare occasions, I sell stories for five cents per word, the minimum "professional" rate. About a fourth of my stories sell for eight to ten cents per word. My juvenile and humor stories generally sell for a quarter a word. Outdoor stories make the bulk of my output, and the usually sell for an average of fifty cents per word. On rare occasions, I've hit a dollar a word, but these are rare, and usually very short.

Markets such as The Atlantic, The New Yorker, Esquire, and Harper's pay from $2,000-$5,000 per story.

Glimmer Train pays $500 for standard submissions, a good deal more for contest entries. Zoetrope usually pays $750, and can buy a movie option for more. There are also markets here and there that pay a lot of money, but that many writers don't think of as possible places for short story submissions.

When you're being paid by the word, length matters, of course. My juveniles usually pay from $375-$500, and my outdoor stories sell for $1,000-$1,500. Mystery stories also usually bring in anywhere from $300-$500.

The trouble with trying to earn real money writing short stories is that you have to hit the top markets at least a couple of times a month to earn enough to live on, and this is tough. The competition in the short story market is unbelievable.

Reprints and anthology rights can add a good deal to your income, but writing short stories is not something you want to do if you expect a steady income.

You have to be prolific, versatile, and good, if you want to sell many short stories, and hit the well-paying markets.

I'd love to take a full year away from any form of writing except short stories, just to see how much I can make. I know, thanks to the outdoor market, I can hit $20,000 from short stories. I think $30,000 is possible, but I can't be sure without trying, and so far I haven't been able to take a full year to try.

But while these numbers seem pretty good to most, selling short stories is not reliable for most of us, and dry spells come for just about everyone.

The easiest way to earn money from writing is nonfiction. . .selling articles is a hundred times easier than selling short stories, partly because of the huge market, and partly because writing itself matters less.

And it's ever so much easier to sell a novel to a good publisher than to sell a short story to a top market.

[Writing Again]

Jamesaritchie


And it's ever so much easier to sell a novel to a good publisher than to sell a short story to a top market.

That is so sad.

[Jamesaritchie]

Re: Short story versus novels
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And it's ever so much easier to sell a novel to a good publisher than to sell a short story to a top market.
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That is so sad.

I don't think it's sad. There's good reason for it. There simply is never going to be the same level of competition with novels. Not as many people finish novels as finish short stories, and no one gets as much practice writing novels as writing short stories.

A short story writer may well write two or three or four hundred shorts stories in three or four or five years. And when you write a short story, you take it start to finish.

Writing half a novel doesn't teach anything.

So it's much easier to sell a novel simply because there are fewer good novel writers than there are good short story writers. Good sells a novel, but good simply isn't good enough when trying to sell short stories to top markets.

There have always been more slots for good novels than there are good novels to fill those slots. There used to be quite a few more short story markets than there are now, but it has never, ever been easy to sell short stories to top markets.

A short story usually has to beat out several other very good short stories in order to make the cut at top markets. This has always been the case.

A novel is a very long project, few people write good ones, and there's room for a few errors in a novel. There is no room for errors in short stories. To sell to a top market, a short story has to be darned near perfect, and perfect just ain't an easy goal.

[Writing Again]

A novel is a very long project, few people write good ones, and there's room for a few errors in a novel. There is no room for errors in short stories. To sell to a top market, a short story has to be darned near perfect, and perfect just ain't an easy goal.

Never been close to perfect, never sold to "top markets."

There did, however use to be markets for me to sell to successfully, and I really did enjoy it. True, most sold for one or two cents a word, but it was pay and it helped a lot.

And I learned a lot.

[pepperlandgirl]

It's really, really hard for me to write short stories that I'm *satisfied* with. It always seems they need revision...shave a few details, add a few details, mess with characterization, etc etc. I've been working on three for my grad school apps and I must be on about the 20th revision for each one, and probably 2 or 3 more to go. Are they good? Yeah, I've gotten more positive criticism than not, but they are much, much harder to perfect than novel-length work.

[mr mistook]

For me, the drawback even to READING short stories is that there's barely any time to develop a character. If the character's don't develop, then I don't want to read the story, but if they DO develop... I feel cheated that I can't spend more time with them.

I guess the short story is all about the plot. They're like episodes of the Twilight Zone. You love the good ones not for the characters so much as the statement they make.

I think back to Poe, with The Telltale Heart. His characterization was great, but when it's all said and done, I'm left with that pounding sound coming from beneath the floor boards. In the end, that's all that story was about. It was just a vehicle to convey one singular instance of dread.

I think it's great that the form can crystalize one specific emotion or viewpoint, but I'm always left feeling cold. Even if the short story is a sappy piece in Reader's Digest, I'm left feeling like somebody on the subway touched my privates without permission only to disappear into the crowd.

[Jamesaritchie]

His characterization was great, but when it's all said and done, I'm left with that pounding sound coming from beneath the floor boards. In the end, that's all that story was about. It was just a vehicle to convey one singular instance of dread.

This is largely what I love about short stories. Being left with that pounding sound is what short stories are all about for me. I don't think a novel can do this nearly as well. I'm all for characterization, I think it's the most important part of writing, but I also think it can be done as well in short stories as in novels.

I think I could make a case for the novelette or the novella being the ultimate form of story-telling, but I do think the short story is wonderful, better than the novel for actually telling a story and showing solid insight into character. One good line can show more about character than a dozen chapters.

Being left wanting to spend more time with the characters is also a good thing, in my opinion. It's what good writing is all about. Too many novels leave me glad the characters have gone. I've spent too much time with them.

It's a matter of personal taste, but your complaints about short stories are exactly why I love them so much.

[Writing Again]

I know I'm reading a good novel when I slow down while reading the last chapters because I don't want to leave the world and the people I met there.

I think that is one thing that is wrong with most series. It is hard enough to achieve that with one novel let alone twenty.