Books on novel revision?

[tammay]

Hi there,
I recently finished the first draft of my novel and now I'm looking to take an ax to it and begin the revision process. I'm so out of it as to what new (or old) books are out there that are good on how to go about revising your novel. Anyone recommend anything? I'm at a loss of where to start.

Thanks,
Tam

[SFEley]

If you absolutely must have a reference to go from, Noah Lukeman's The First Five Pages is far better than average. I bought it and read it, and although by the time I got to revising my novel I was somewhat beyond the point of finding writing books useful, it did give me a useful perspective.

That said, here's what I did:

<OL>
<LI>Nothing, for a few weeks. Started the rough draft of the sequel, and let this one ferment.</LI>
<LI>Gave it to a couple of trusted readers to tell me what they liked and what was boring. (Not all of my trusted readers -- they're a precious resource, you don't want to exhaust them all at once.)</LI>
<LI>Acted on the feedback I got that I agreed with.</LI>
<LI>Printed the manuscript and read through it slowly, with red pen in hand, doing line-by-line corrections and prose tweaking. Typed in all those corrections only after I was done with the entire book. (This took a few weeks.)</LI>
<LI>Read the book aloud, again with red pen in hand, and tuned any sentences that simply didn't sound right. Typed in corrections again.</LI>
<LI>Drafted a couple of different trusted readers to make sure that it was better this time than the time before.</LI>
<LI>Acted on feedback again.</LI>
<LI>Started marketing.</LI>
</OL>

I don't know if there's a book that tells you to do all this. It made sense to me; but the book's still under consideration and hasn't sold yet, so I have to stop just short of saying it worked for me. Perhaps soon I'll be able to say that.

[Writing Again]

I suggest: Line by Line (http://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395393914/ref=sib_rdr_dp/002-9596088-3901603).

And

5a) Read the book aloud, into a good tape recorder and listen to things you did not expect to hear.

[Jamesaritchie]

I like the two choices you've been given, so let me throw in a website I've found helpful.

www.hollylisle.com/fm/Wor...ision.html (http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/one-pass-revision.html)

There's a ton of good writing advice on Lisle's website.

[Writing Again]

I really like Holly Lisle, but I warn you, there is a lot there. One of my friends got lost in there for several months before she found her way back out.

[tammay]

Thank you all for your replies.

SFEley, I feel much as you do. I've read tons and tons of writing books in the past years and I got burned out on them as well, which is one of the reasons I'm so out of the loop. Thanks for giving me a detailed account of what you did. I'm glad it worked for you.

I'll probably take a look at Holly Lisle's site (I'm familiar with it - it's great!) and see what I come up with and also I'll take a look at the two others mentioned (the link for Line by Line didn't work for me, for some reason...)

Tam

[Writing Again]

Try this one: Line by Line (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395393914/qid=1101457616/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-0719954-9095154)


I don't know.. I can't get them to work for me either.

Try Amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395393914/qid=1101457616/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-0719954-9095154

[tammay]

Thanks for persevering with the link - it works now.

Tam

[sc211]

A book I've found very useful (even after reading many others) is Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, now in its second edition:

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...ce&s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060545690/qid=1101551451/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3907060-1072706?v=glance&s=books)

[maestrowork]

"Self Editing..." is a good book.

Also, Sol Stein on Writing. Good reference for revisions.

[bkwriter]

Hi, just to throw in a book I've been reading. Revision and self-editing by James Scott Bell

[Nateskate]

I don't read Books on writing. I've read writing magazines. I read articles on writing, and glean from them.

But mostly, I read books in my Genre. I learn from them, especially other series- what works and what doesn't work. I also read outside my Genre because good writing is inspiring whatever the Genre. Reading, as much as writing, is a continual source of learning.

What books have you read to learn your craft? Do you buy books by authors you wouldn't ever read otherwise- I do.

[AnnaSaikin]

On Writing by Stephen King. An oldie but a goodie. I'm due for a re-read soon.

Also MLA Handbook for general formatting questions.

Nothing beats industry blogs like Nathan Bransford's (even though he's out of the game, his blog is still incredibly relevant).

[Nick Blaze]

I don't read Books on writing. I've read writing magazines. I read articles on writing, and glean from them.

But mostly, I read books in my Genre. I learn from them, especially other series- what works and what doesn't work. I also read outside my Genre because good writing is inspiring whatever the Genre. Reading, as much as writing, is a continual source of learning.

What books have you read to learn your craft? Do you buy books by authors you wouldn't ever read otherwise- I do.

I was recommended to read Gene Wolfe, who, since I usually study classic literature (particularly from Nordic and Asian countries), was not somebody I would normally read. I learned a great deal and enjoyed it a great deal.

However, I still generally stick to the classics... The Count of Monte Cristo never gets old to me and neither will the Sanguo Yanyi.

[Medievalist]

I'd suggest reading E. M. Forster's Aspects of the Novel. It's short, and practical and I think might be especially helpful in terms of the way he talks about structure, and about plot vs. narration/story.

When you read it, keep in mind that the book consists of transcripts of lectures.

I'm also impressed by King's On Writing.

That said, I don't write fiction; I am, I suppose, most accurately put, a professional reader of fiction.

[Leanan-Sidhe]

I can only do this on re-reads. The first time around, I get too caught up in the story to study the mechanics of why it's working (or not). :D

[Dandroid]

midnight's children, the kite runner, blood meridian, house of leaves, 2666...all contributed to my wiritng on some level....

[Jamesaritchie]

Reading in your genre is mandatory. Classics, as well as contemporary. So is reading as widely outside your genre as possible. It's hard to bring something new if all you read is your own genre.

But how-to books are also a valuable tool. On Writing, and Zen in the Art of writing are my favorites. Next to these, autobiographies of writers are, I think, the best possible guides. They're about the road writers took to get where they are now, rather than how to do what it is they do now. They're about how much that writer read, what he read, what he studied, where he studied, how educated he is, how much he wrote when he first started, his successes and his failures, on and on. Highly important.

But I've read hundreds of how-to books, and I think the smartest thing any writer can do is read his way through the .808 section at the library, start to finish. How-to books work best when you read as many as possible, learn which work for you, which don't, and pick this technique from one book, that technique from another, etc.

Unless you actually read them, you have no idea what's in them, or how helpful some of them can be.

[scarletpeaches]

I can only do this on re-reads. The first time around, I get too caught up in the story to study the mechanics of why it's working (or not). :DIf you get caught up, that's a very, very good sign that it is working.

Also, regarding 'how to' books, I would like to burn every copy of Bird by Bird and Writing Down the Bones in existence, and the self-indulgent, navel-gazing hippy knobrockets who wrote them.

[Emualde]

The following book helped me tremendously as I was diving into my second novel. It helped me organize my ideas and deepen my characterization:

"First draft in 30 days" by Karen S. Wiesner.

It mostly covers the work you need to do prior to starting your first draft but it helps you cut down to the chase.

Hope it helps!

[scarletpeaches]

I read that and hated it. You don't end up with a first draft; you end up with an over-processed outline. Timelines, schedules, character sketches... Okay, outline if you gotta, but don't call it a first draft.

Ooh, I'm so angry today!

[Emualde]

I'm sorry you hated it scarletpeaches. It's true the title is misleading but I found it useful. It made me brainstrom more than I thought I needed to and thus helped me structure my novel faster and as a result save me a lot of editing.

I guess in the end it's about whether you want to outline or write from the hip. I need the organization because ideas fire all over the place in my brain ;)

[Chris P]

I'm about halfway through King's On Writing. Entertaining as well as informative. I think I like him more than his books. I've read through other how-to books, but I have yet to find one I think is highly useful, although many have good parts.

I also read books similar to how I want to write. Since coming here, I've learned how to read with a writer's eye, and to pick apart what works for me in a story and what doesn't, rather than just taking a guess that I'm writing well.

[dangerousbill]

I don't read Books on writing. I've read writing magazines. I read articles on writing, and glean from them.


Books on writing are most valuable, I think, after you've already begun to write. They're no substitute for sitzfleisch, nor can they do for you what an experienced critique group can do.

However, I've gotten quite a bit of value out of five books.

The first, by default, is Stephen King's 'On Writing'.

Three are by Lawrence Block. They're collections of columns written while he was a contributing editor at Writer's Digest.
'Telling Lies for Fun and Profit'
'Spider, Spin Me a Web' and
'Writing the Novel: From Plot to Print'

Finally, there's Browne and King's 'Self-Editing for Fiction Writers' which should be read again from time to time, and kept as a desk reference otherwise.

[hyz]

The most helpful one I've read has been George Singleton's Pep Talks, Warnings, And Screeds. I know in the scheme of books on writing, it's not lauded to be a particularly outstanding book, but paired with a fiction-writing course, and it helped me examine my own writing and figure out song problems I had with it.

I read practically everything I can get my hands on in my genre. I re-read the authors whose "style" I can see mine connecting the most to, try to figure out some of the brilliant ways they handle their plots and characters.

Thing is, I've always hated examining writing. It's one of the reasons I avoided taking English courses. I love reading, and I love writing, but I didn't enjoy getting too close and dissecting writing for every little thing. I see the benefit of it, but I just wanted to enjoy most of it.

[Phaeal]

Bird by Bird ROCKS! But one day we're going to have to stage a cage fight between her and SP. ;)

My other favorites are Christopher Derrick's The Writing of Novels (Reader's Report in the UK) and Thomas McCormack's The Fiction Editor, the Novel and the Novelist. But I've read tons of others and gotten something out of each one. Besides, it's fun to read about writing.

I also love dishy novels about writing and writers. Olivia Goldsmith's The Bestseller and Marian Keyes's The Other Side of the Story are my favorites.

[scarletpeaches]

Bird by Bird? Wasn't that the book where she banged on and on about how her friend's serious illness affected her, and how drug addiction would impact her writing, and how she could use friends' tragedies in her writing...?

Pfft. Made her seem like a mercenary, cold-hearted witch to me. And I've never seen any of her novels on shelves anywhere.

[Phaeal]

Finally, there's Browne and King's 'Self-Editing for Fiction Writers' which should be read again from time to time, and kept as a desk reference otherwise.

And this -- a perfect start for the novice.

[Phaeal]

Bird by Bird? Wasn't that the book where she banged on and on about how her friend's serious illness affected her, and how drug addiction would impact her writing, and how she could use friends' tragedies in her writing...?

Pfft. Made her seem like a mercenary, cold-hearted witch to me. And I've never seen any of her novels on shelves anywhere.

I have.

[Priene]

I read most of these (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1951793,00.html).

[IceCreamEmpress]

Pfft. Made her seem like a mercenary, cold-hearted witch to me. And I've never seen any of her novels on shelves anywhere.

She's had a couple of best-sellers in the US. Not every US author is big in the UK, and vice-versa--Christopher Brookmyre doesn't even have a publisher here (this is a scandal and a crime!)

[Ineti]

What books have you read to learn your craft? Do you buy books by authors you wouldn't ever read otherwise- I do.

All the how-to books on my blog list (http://www.popcornfalls.com/blog/?page_id=106) are worth checking out, I think. I flip through them all the time to refresh my memory or spark an idea.

I also read a ton of fiction both in and out of my genres and a lot of non-fiction.

[sunandshadow]

I don't read Books on writing. I've read writing magazines. I read articles on writing, and glean from them.
Dunno if you realize, but many how-to books on writing are just collections of articles and/or lectures. Perhaps they have a bit of organization and bridging material added. I don't see any difference between reading the same material in a magazine or in a book.

As far as fiction goes, if I want to learn my craft I don't find it useful to read a new book, instead I find it very helpful to re-read a book I enjoyed as a reader, but this time analyzing it as a writer.

[Adobedragon]

As far as fiction goes, if I want to learn my craft I don't find it useful to read a new book, instead I find it very helpful to re-read a book I enjoyed as a reader, but this time analyzing it as a writer.

A-yup. That's pretty much my approach as well.

Although, I did like Stephen King's On Writing.

[Jamesaritchie]

If you get caught up, that's a very, very good sign that it is working.

Also, regarding 'how to' books, I would like to burn every copy of Bird by Bird and Writing Down the Bones in existence, and the self-indulgent, navel-gazing hippy knobrockets who wrote them.

This is incredibly frightening. Not that you want to burn the books, but that I agree with you.

[scarletpeaches]

*eyes the horizon for the other three horsemen*

Jesus, JAR. I got chills.

(They're multiplyin'...and I'm loooooooooooooooosin' control...)

[quicklime]

if you've read a half-dozen already, how much are you writing?

Not saying to never read more, you should always keep learning, but at some point the trainin wheels have to come off the bike. If you've read a half-dozen already I hope you're also writing, because some stuff you just can't learn from reading alone

[blacbird]

This is incredibly frightening. Not that you want to burn the books, but that I agree with you.

I third both of you.

Books I've read to learn the craft of writing:

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain
Ethan Frome, Edith Wharton
Lord Jim, Joseph Conrad
The Professor's House, Willa Cather
The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, Carson McCullers
Mildred Pierce, James M. Cain
The Ox-Bow Incident, Walter Van Tilburg Clark
The Immense Journey, Loren Eiseley
Cooper's Creek, Alan Moorehead
Tales of Three Hemispheres, Lord Dunsany
Cannery Row, John Steinbeck
The Trial, Franz Kafka
Everything that Rises Must Converge, Flannery O'Connor
The Water-Method Man, John Irving
A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Buirgess
Little Big Man, Thomas Berger
For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemingway
The Inheritors, William Golding
Light in August, William Faulkner
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula LeGuin
The October Country, Ray Bradbury
The Reason Why, Cecil Woodham-Smith
Blood Meridian, Cormac McCarthy
Slan, A.E. Van Vogt
Native Son, Richard Wright
Journey to the End of the Night, Louis-Ferdinand Céline
Kaputt, Curzio Malaparte
The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas
Great Expectations, Charles Dickens
The Red Badge of Courage, Stephen Crane
Going After Cacciato, Tim O'Brien
The Paperboy, Pete Dexter
The League of Frightened Men, Rex Stout
The Green Ripper, John D. McDonald
The Hound of the Baskervilles, Arthur Conan Doyle
The Time Machine, H.G. Wells
Miss Lonelyhearts, Nathanael West
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Stieg Larsson
November, Georges Simenon
One Hundred Years of Solitude, Gabriel García Marquez
My Life in the Bush of Ghosts, Amos Tutuola
Out of the Silent Planet, C.S. Lewis
. . .

IMO, the only way, in addition to actual writing itself, to learn the craft of writing.

[Phaeal]

The only true way is that which branches into myriad ways.

I said that, not Yoda. Though he's welcome to borrow it, if he'll just return that copy of Bird by Bird he's had for the longest time.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I've read my share, but the two that stand out are Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and How to Write a Damn Good Novel.

How to Write a Damn Good Novel is my favorite because it helped me look more critically at storytelling, foreshadowing, building tension, characterization, etc. After reading that, I was able to learn a lot more about storytelling from reading novels and watching movies.

Scarlett, I have Writing Down The Bones and honestly have never been able to discern why it's so highly recommended. It just seemed all "This is how I write and why writing makes me a quirky spayshul flower," to me. I couldn't name one thing I got out of that book.

[scarletpeaches]

It makes a nice coaster?

[AlwaysJuly]

I'll try reading just about any book on writing, although I haven't finished them all - some of them seem like rehashes or don't grab me (Bird by Bird was one that didn't grab me - I enjoyed the writing, but not in an "OMG I need to finish this before it's due back at the library" kind of way).

I like Plot & Structure and On Revision.

I read fiction widely - and some might say excessively - but I have a hard time analyzing as a writer if I'm enjoying a story. I still think all that reading has an effect on your writing, though.

[blacbird]

The only true way is that which branches into myriad ways.

I said that, not Yoda. Though he's welcome to borrow it,

Myriad ways, that which branches into, the only true way is, hmm?

[Alvah]

I recommend two books by John Gardner:

The Art of Fiction
On Becoming a Novelist. - this one has good exercises.

I also like his novel, "Nickel Mountain".

[Jamesaritchie]

if you've read a half-dozen already, how much are you writing?

Not saying to never read more, you should always keep learning, but at some point the trainin wheels have to come off the bike. If you've read a half-dozen already I hope you're also writing, because some stuff you just can't learn from reading alone

When the training wheels come off, learning stops. A writer should always write, but should never stop learning, should never stop practicing new techniques, never stop reading anything and everything that might teach something new.

Half a dozen is nothing. That's not training wheels, it's still being on breast milk. After twelve dozen or so you're on training wheels.

[cutecontinent]

I'll be in the minority here: I didn't like King's On Writing... he basically says, "If you want to write, just follow your heart and write."

Also, why didn't he mention some of the more basic stuff like inciting incident and so on?

I did like his analogy of how crafting a good story is like an architectural dig, and how you have to slowly excavate it. That's how I feel, and I'm sure many of you guys do, too.

[Fillanzea]

I have had more or less the same experience as Anne Lamott did in the "Plot Treatment" chapter of Bird by Bird (with, admittedly, a LOT less drugs and alcohol) and it's just one of the most honest things I know about facing one's own abject failure and going on. She's kind of a ridiculous hippie but I kind of love her for it.

I like John Gardner's books a lot.

I wish I had not learned so much of Robert Olen Butler's foibles as a human being, but his book From Where You Dream is so good I'm surprised I seem to be the only person who's heard of it. When I was scratching on at a hard plateau, I think that careful attention to the principles he looks at were what got me through it.

[Ali B]

On Writing by Stephen King. An oldie but a goodie.

The best how-to-write book out there.

[Nateskate]

I'm sorry you hated it scarletpeaches. It's true the title is misleading but I found it useful. It made me brainstrom more than I thought I needed to and thus helped me structure my novel faster and as a result save me a lot of editing.

I guess in the end it's about whether you want to outline or write from the hip. I need the organization because ideas fire all over the place in my brain ;)

I checked out your Blog and liked your mini-videos about your story. It sounds like Fringe borrowed your idea "Choose your love or your world..." Smiles.

I like the idea of both your stories.

Right now I'm reading George Martin. I started "The Kite Runner", but it seems it takes me longer to get into any other Genre outside of fantasy. I do plan to read it, but I'm likely to put it behind "A Game of Thrones"

I do like these other stories, but fantasy has an immediate appeal to me- at least good fantasy.

[benbradley]

On Writing by Stephen King. An oldie but a goodie. I'm due for a re-read soon.
Huh? I checked, it's only 11 years old, that seems like almost brand new to me. Most of my books on writing are older than that (maybe because I buy most of them from thrift stores?).

I've got a separate bookcase of "writing books" that I've picked up whenever I've seen them. A perhaps notable thrift-store find, published in 1980, is "How To Write Best-Selling Fiction" which has been way long out of print (because he refuses to allow it to be reprinted, just like with many of his older novels). He goes into different stuff about writing, but he repeats six words of advice throughout the thing (and maybe this will save you from locating and coughing up for a used copy):

read read read write write write

and it's clear from the context that he means for these words to apply to fiction.

I have to admit I haven't practiced that advice nearly enough.

[Nateskate]

This is incredibly frightening. Not that you want to burn the books, but that I agree with you.


Lol- I did buy Jenna Glatzer's book on Writer's Block. I've never had writer's block and hope it never happens. I just had such high regards for Jenna and wanted to read something she wrote, and it was a good read.

Maybe I should have bought her book on anxiety. I'm not all that good at waiting.

[Henri Bauholz]

I love reading books on writing. Maybe that's why I haven't been able to sell my novel. Anyway my favorites are On Writing, Zen and the Art of Writing, Spunk & Bite and The Breakout Novel. Stephen King's "On Writing" is especially unique cause it kinda morphs into a horror tale.

My Blog (http://bluefoxcafe.wordpress.com)

[ave]

I really enjoyed self editing for fiction writers. That's all I've read, so I cant recommend anything else.

for those who have read that, is it worth buying "the first five pages," "Line by line," or "Self editing for fiction writers" or do they just cover the same stuff?

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I have Writing Down the Bones and Wild Mind - both were given to me. I read them. Never take them off the shelf again. Not necessarily bad, but unfit for my kind of writing.

My Bible: Strunk & White - Elements of Writing.

My second Bible: Sol Stein - Stein on Writing.

Other high ranking books on writing:

David Morrell - The Successful Novelist [Very interesting how 'Rambo' destroyed his reputation as a serious author]

Lawrence Block - Writing the Novel

Stephen King - On Writing [Not, like some say, the best book on writing, but pretty interesting, especially for King fans. However, too much noodling on how his addictions and his accident influenced his life]

Plus I have shelves full with books on sociopaths, weapons, body language, deception, psychology, style and grammar, crime and criminals...